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Wednesday, July 09, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Right to Self-Defense Affirmed
by John Stossel
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"Repeal the Second Amendment," The Chicago Tribune editorialized.

"The Supreme Court on Thursday all but ensured that even more Americans will die," said The New York Times.

"[T]he Second Amendment protects the right to bear arms only in relation to service in a state militia." added The Washington Post.

Those are a few of many editorial expressions of disgust from the mainstream media over the Supreme Court's ruling that when the Bill of Rights says that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," it includes the right to possess guns for self-defense, and not merely a right to be armed as a member of the National Guard.

What has caused so much confusion about the Amendment is its preface: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state ..."

In striking down Washington, D.C.'s three-decade-old handgun ban, Justice Antonin Scalia wrote that the preface merely "announces the purpose for which the right was codified: to prevent elimination of the militia" by the new national government. "The prefatory clause," he continued, "does not suggest that preserving the militia was the only reason Americans valued the ancient right; most undoubtedly thought it even more important for self-defense and hunting."

But for the four dissenters, the preface limits the right to keep and bear arms to military purposes. In their view, if the Framers of the Second Amendment wanted private individuals to have guns for hunting and self-defense, they would have said so.

Justice John Paul Stevens points to "the Second Amendment's omission of any statement of purpose related to the right to use firearms for hunting or personal self-defense."

I suppose one could argue that the omission indicates the Framers of the Constitution didn't mean to protect that right. But I find that hard to believe. The right of self-defense -- against homegrown tyrants as well as common criminals -- was much on the minds of Americans in the late 18th century. Thomas Jefferson said, "[W]hat country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."

But there is something else that many analysts of the decision have missed.

The Bill of Rights did not create rights. It acknowledged them. Right before the July 4 holiday, it shouldn't have been necessary to remind the four Supreme Court dissenters of what Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. ... "

The Framers of the Second Amendment did not say, "The people shall have the right to keep and bear arms." They wrote, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

This isn't just theory. The Cato's Institute's Tom Palmer, an early plaintiff in the D.C. gun case, told "20/20" he is alive today because he was carrying a handgun when he was approached on the street by some toughs. "They told us, 'We're going to kill you.' I showed them the business end of a pistol. They turned around, went away."

The four dissenting justices fear the Supreme Court's decision will unleash a flood of gun violence. Unlikely. "Criminals do not have a problem getting guns," Palmer reminded me. It's law-abiding people who suffer when guns are banned.

The victims of gun crimes are easy to count. What cannot be counted are the lives saved because would-be victims were armed. Palmer's confrontation is one of many that didn't make the news.

He asks, "If someone gets into your house, which would you rather have, a handgun or a telephone? You can call the police if you want, and they'll get there and they'll make a crime report and take a picture of your dead body.

"They can't get there in time to save your life."

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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The state of the union
is not good when four supreme court justices and the major newspapers can so distort such a plain and simple constitutional right as the right to bear arms. While it may be a victory today, the vote and the efforts of the liberals foretell many more fights to preserve that right and probably many others as well.

Another Scalia and a Thomas. A Roberts and Alito and we might just celebrate our tricentennial. McCain would see his playground shrink and his pet projects doomed, Obama wants to turn us into a communist paradise ripe for colonization by the Muslims so somehow, I don't think my dream will come true.

This is not about
the right to defend one's self. That's a popular myth. This is about the reality, which is about the right to get drunk on a Saturday night and blow your girlfriend's (wife's, kids, buddie's) brains out.

Read the police report in your local paper, for once, and see how many murders happen because someone is protecting their family.

Leftist disingenuity personified

"But for the four dissenters... if the Framers of the Second Amendment wanted private individuals to have guns for hunting and self-defense, they would have said so."


Funny, but the Framers didn't mention abortions, either.


But, if you're liberal, there are no points for intellectual consistency.


Great column, John. Five check marks!

Hey, disasterbabe

read the police reports, or better yet the Lott and Kleck studies showing how often privately-owned firearms save the owners' lives.

FAR more often than any misuse. Between 1 - 2 million times ANNUALLY.


You ready to let THAT fact sink into your consciousness, or are you happy just spouting leftist rhetoric?

Great point about rights...
Now if we can get folks to understand that just because the Supreme Court said it it means the Constitution means it.

Gun ownership is an inherent right given to us by neither the constitution or any court ruling but is the ultimate defense against personal harm by either felon or liberal government.

I Still Want to See the Bullet Holes
I'm to quote a posting of mine under a similar column; somehow the discussion went in the direction of CCW allowing people to bring guns into airports, etc.:

"
Somebody please, find me some statistics concerning this rampant crime wave being committed by these people with concealed-carry permits.

The liberals want me to be scared of honest citizens packing heat, but somehow, without those statistics, I just can't seem to muster up anything more than mild annoyance.

Surely the airports must be riddled with bullet-holes by now. SOMEBODY must have a statistic.
"

Good Column John
Thomas Jefferson also wrote - those who turn their guns into plows, will serve those who don't.

For you left wing liberals, that means the law abiding citizens will be serving the criminals.

What The Left Is Really Scared Of
The hard core among them that want the government in charge of everything are worried that the crime rate will NOT go up. The worst thing for those that want to destroy all our rights is for private ownership of guns to cause a decrease in crime. That would ruin the only argument they have for disaming us.

Self-Defense AND Defense against Tyranny
Unca Alby, some good points there. I'm more comfortable around a bunch of citizens with firearms than I am around police with firearms. The statistics show CCW permit holders have a much lower rate of hitting innocents than police do.

If you read the writings of the gentlemen that wrote the 2nd Amendment they put it in there for a very specific reason that scares the liberals to the point where they wet their pants - if the people are armed, they have the power to overthrow an oppressive government. The people being armed is the ultimate check and balance on government - which is why governments hate the idea so much. As far as gun control laws are concerned, I do not believe the government has ANY power to license my right to own a firearm or to even know whether or not I do have on. They should assume that I do and give me the proper respect owed a CITIZEN, not a subject (which too damn many government officials at all levels think we are).

I will repeat what Mr. Heston said at the NRA Convention a few years ago - - "From my cold dead hands".

Read the text Very Carefully
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state; the right of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" (My Emphasis)

It's not "the right of members of said militia" or "the right of those duely appointed by the state" it's "the right of the people." "The People" means everybody, not just some select group.

Phenominal Column
I try never to miss a Stossel column, and this is why.

He knocks one out of the park again.

Awesome.

disasterbabe
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Washington, DC experienced 400-500 firearm murders per year while having one of the strictest gun bans in the country. The first several victims of John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo were within the Washington city limits.

In 2004 there were around 11,000 firearms related crimes in England and Wales, part of an island nation where even the police do not carry firearms. Gun crime went up every year from 1997 to 2004 in England and Wales.

Gun control does not prevent crime. It does not make crime more difficult. Crime rates go up when gun laws are put in place.

People without guns still get drunk and stab/bludgeon/drown/run over/throw out a window spouses/paramours/kids/friends, etc.

OJ Simpson killed 2 people without a gun. Tim McVeigh killed 170 people without a gun. Osama bin Laden's lackeys killed 3,000 people without a gun.

Most major gun crimes are committed in situations where the perpetrator should not have a gun. (Convict, mentally ill, too young, in a location where guns aren't allowed.) People who commit gun crimes don't care aboug gun laws any more than they care about murder laws.

Meanwhile in Toronto
Our mayor, known locally as His Blondness because he ran on a platform that included his better haircut than his opponent, responded to the landmark Supreme Court of the USA ruling by demanding that our slacker Prime Minister urge the United States to ban guns!

Mayor Miller is convinced that if all legal handguns were banned, Black kids would quit stabbing White kids and stealing their electronic binkies.

More leftist idiocy from ...
a disaster of a human being.

Let's see, you have some criminals that commit a few acts of carnage with guns and libs are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Yet, when we are seriously under threat of attack and our lives at risk, why we can't racial profile passengers on jet liners. NOOOOO! The Patriot Act is considered to be dire restrictions of one's liberties.

You libs, if I didn't laugh at you, I'd be tempted to use my Second Amendment rights on you.

Good article.
The ten Amendments were all about placing limits upon the power of government in relation to the citizenry.

While the framers were concerned about the abuse of federal authority, in the real world it does not matter whether it is federal, state, or other governmental authority which is abusive toward the citizen.

Abuse is abuse. Oppression is oppression.

In the 1st Amendment, the Framers did NOT say Congress extends to the citizen the right of free speech. Rather, the Amendment says Congress cannot abridge that right.

That right is transendent.

Similarly, on the 2nd Amendment, the Framers did NOT say Congress extends to the citizen the right to keep and bear arms. Rather, the Amendment says that that right cannot infringed(by Congress or any other governmental authority).

Again, the right is transcendent.

Restricting, or interpreting, that right as limited only to occasions where the citizenry assembles into militias, empowers the Congress with determining how that right is to be applied.

But the Framers did not say Congress had any authority on the exercise or application of that right.

And we all know when the Framers used the term, "Congress", they meant the whole Federal Government apparatus, including Executive and Judiciary.

I want the libs to read the ....
BILL OF RIGHTS (especially Amendments #'s 2,9,10)
Federalist Papers
Anti-Federalist papers
Before they post. It would make them at least sound informed...But alas...They're too busy reading the NY Times.

Proud gun owner,marksman, and Patriot
Edna


Disasterbabe
So what you are saying is that you want the government to ban alcohol. That might be a problem for the ethanol lobby.

The first amendment only exists
because of the second. If one cannot have the freedom to protect themselves then no other rights are guaranteed.

disasterbabe is wrong, and found a loony way to be so, but can publicly speak out because she doesn't fear her fellow citizens. Compare that to a police state where all citizens are unarmed (like, say, Cuba).

Now we need to
seek to ensure that those with CCW permits can travel freely and legally to all 50 states.
No law should force me to place my family in danger while traveling simply because some liberal pinhead is afraid of guns.

It's time to take our country back.

Here's Some Rain For Your Parade
Joy, joy, joy everyone is still celebrating this ruling. I have come to the conclusion that gun owners and 2nd amendment rights advocates would have been much better off if SCOTUS had not taken this case.

The title of this article, to be more truthful, should be reworded to say “The Right to Self-Defense In The Homes of Washington DC Using a Small Variety of Weapons Is Affirmed”. The ruling allows banning of a vague variety of weapons, it allows banning carrying of weapons outside your home, and it only applies to Federal law. The striking down of the DC gun law was done by the DC appeals court and the SCOTUS did NOT go any further than the DC court did, as far as real rights go.

All SCOTUS did was make legitimate a lot of the gun bans like the infamous assault weapons ban.

To Stossel I say READ THE RULING!

Constitution limits GOVERNMENT
somebody needs to remind the Supreme Curt and congress that the ENTIRE Constitution is a limt on GOVERNMENT,not on the People.
(As Jerabaub mentioned above WRT the Bill of Rights.)
Thus,the government has NO powers other than what is assigned them in the Constitution. Many of our current gun laws ARE "infringements" and need to be overthrown.
Also,if one needs a license for RKBA,then it's no longer a right,but only a privelege.The power to license is also the power to DENY license.

AudioR10
Don't forget The UN as they are attempting the same BS with gun control in the US. They can't come up with an agreeable definition of what constitutes a terrorist, but they can decide that captial punishment and gun ownership are wrong for the US and they are investigaing the US for human rights violations under the guise of racism.

"Absurd"
“But for the four dissenters, the preface limits the right to keep and bear arms to military purposes.”

If this were the case, there would be no need for the Second Amendment – even oppressive governments have militaries. We then could conclude that such governments grant the people the right to keep and bear arms, which is absurd. As Scalia said in his opinion, this would be nothing more than a right to military service, which is “absurd” [his word].

Seawolf
Down south in some areas, when getting pulled over for a traffic violation, they throw their gun on the dashboard before the police approach the vehicle. A southern woman recently tried that in Michigan and immediately got arrested.

The confused woman explained that this is what they are taught in her state. Police couldn't believe anyone would teach a person to throw their gun on the dashboard (IOW they didn't believe her). One call to her home state and they realized her dilemna as she was telling the truth. She was given back her gun and sent on her way.


westernbondbeam
They haven't done that for a long time. Currently in my State you are required to keep the gun in your glove box.

What I did when sopped was to inform the officer prior to opening the box to get my registration that there was a gun in the box.

There have been too may officers shot by perps in the past few years and if they see your hand disappear and come back with a pistol in it they are going to shoot.

Obvious
I have always thought this amendment was fairly straight forward. Reading other texts by the founding fathers you get a grip on how they form their sentences and this amendment is no different. It applies to the people of the country, so if they need to they can form a militia. A militia is necessary for a free state, so have a militia the people must have the right to keep and bear arms.

Check out my blog as I have a nice piece on the 2nd. To say so myself, I think it is one of my finer posts. lol

Affirmation
Whenever I think we've finally gotten some leftists to put their heart in neutral and engage their brain, I read a post like "disasterbabe's" (Jul 9, 2008 - 1:48 AM EST).
-----

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so." ~Ronald Reagan

Vic
I heard the story second hand from a police officer friend. He was not one of the arresting officers but heard the story during some review training on how to handle certain situations. I was under the impression the incident was recent however it could be a standard story from many years ago that they routinely use to help train officers. I should inquire as to the time frame.

It just shows that carrying concealed from state to state does become tricky, though as Seawolf pointed out, it shouldn't be necessarily so. Calmly informing the officer of the weapon seems like a prudent thing to do. Throwing it up on the dashboard in a panic does not.

Hey d'babe
It's your thinking that's a disaster BABE. I and 4 million or more gun owners and husbands,parents who are gun owners have killed no one. The evil actors who make headlines are the abberation. They are the anomalies, statistically. If you can grasp that, how can you live with yourself, trying to deprive us of our civil rights. Gun control is racist, sexist and now, politically incorrect.
"I'm a bitter gun owner and I vote"

Marc, Brian R
In the town where I live there have been no cdases of anyone protecting their homes from intruders or criminals with a gun, save one instance where someone mistakenly shot their neighbor. There have been 21 cases of deaths that resulted from accidents among children, deaths that involved jealousy, drugs, alcohol, or revenge. You can gaze at your navels and poeticize about your right to blow out the brains of the nearest stranger all you want, I'm looking at experience.

The last, closest shooting in my upscale neighborhood left a woman dead, a jealous husband dead by suicide, and a lover totally blinded.

But fortunately, the dead guy's rights are still intact.

Primus
""The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so." ~Ronald Reagan

"The trouble with our conservative friends is that they are ignorant of the things that are actually happening around them and know only the things they wish to be true."

disasterbabe
21 deaths from guns and not one of self-defense?

What town do you live in, Im sure those stats are easily found online.

Amusing, isn't it?
When Souter, Ginsberg, Breyer, and Stevens look to the 2nd amendment, they demand that everything pertaining to the right to bear arms be specifically spelled out in detail in the specific wording of the amendment, leaving nothing at all to rational understanding and interpretation of the clause.

When it comes to murdering babies, though, they not only don't require any specific mention of that "right", they don't even need any statements that loosely could be interpreted to imply said "right" to murder your children.

westernbondbeam
Back in my Navy days I traveled from State to State a LOT. The Navy advised us that we should NOT bring guns at all when traveling in Northern States in a POV, and in one case (NY), not to bring them to the State at all.

Currently if I am traveling outside of my home State or GA I research the law in that State.

BTW, that law with the glove compartment (or trunk) is ONLY for carrying a firearm to and from hunting (for which you must have a valid hunting license).

One of the drawbacks to the CCW law here was that to carry a weapon at ALL outside of your own property you had to have a CCW. They put in the caveate about hunting to make it seem reasonable but it is not. Nobody realistically hunts with a handgun (or very few do).

Not all of these CCW laws are sweetness and light and in some cases I veiw them as a backdoor method of licensing and registration. Which, this latest SCOTUS ruling also said was OK as one of those "reasonable" abridgements.

dbabe
"The trouble with our conservative friends is that they are ignorant of the things that are actually happening around them and know only the things they wish to be true."

was that you quoting yourself? bahaha!!!

here

"the problem with liberals is their IQ never reaches their age"

Western bondbeam
"So what you are saying is that you want the government to ban alcohol. That might be a problem for the ethanol "

No, actually, what I want is for you guys to be consistent. I want you to use the same passion for individual rights when the subjects are medication and recreational drugs, morning after pills and reproductive rights, right to die on my own terms, right to travel anywhere, right to privacy when I'm calling a friend or taking a book out of the library, and the right to marry a person of the same sex if I choose.

Maybe we should also take another look at the right of free speech and be allowed to call "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

To be clear, I don't care how many of you pack heat and kiss your guns so long as you keep them away from me. Our town has a gun club which has had only two mishaps so I encourage right-wing pistol-packin' mommas to spend their time there and shoot at each other. The more the better.

My summary
I want to be very clear about this: guns are mostly symbolic for most people. I really don't think when they are pointed at someone's head juring a domestic fight that people really understand what is going to happen.

I'm not concerned about guns, I'm concerned about human frailty and innocent victims.

Defense against government
Ok, it's possible I'm an idiot. But I still get to state my 2 cents worth on the web...

The right to possess weapons is not so that an individual can defend themself against burglars or go hunting. The right to possess firearms is so that idividuals can protect themselves from the government itself. The framers only had to look at England (and the rest of Europe) to see how nobody could fight the King's power. Weapons were forbidden. The framer's wanted the people to have the means to throw off a tyrannical government.

John Stossel
can rhapsodize about his "rights" because he will never be within 100 miles of a trailer park or impoverished area where people are out of work, stressed, or mentally unstable. I suspect his community is gated and locked so blowing sentiment about one's precious rights to protect one's lawn out of one's backside is a cheap thrill that doesn't cost him much of anything.

disasterbabe
What town again? Still waiting.

You claim all these things, but stats plainly prove that crime goes up where guns are banned.

Do you deny that criminals would get guns all the same if guns were banned?

If I were a criminal I would flock to places where guns were banned. It would mean that the citizens would be unarmed for me. Can you deny that logic?

Doing the Math for Diasterbabe.
According to the Brady center for violence prevention(Formally Handgun Control Inc.) ther are about 400 million privately owned firearms in the U.S. today. In 2006, there were about 30,000 firearm related deaths(for all reasons: Criminal, suicides, justifiable etc.) Assuming that a different gun was used in each homocide and that the Brady numbers are correct, then 0.00075% or 75/10000 of all guns were used in a homocide. That means that 99.99925% of all guns were NOT used to kill someone.

Vic
Michigan has both open carry and concealed. Open requires no permit except the registration of your gun. Concealed does require permit. Few if any carry open though because the police will be called and question you almost every time you walk down the street carrying open. Most law abiding citizens don't want the hassle so they either carry concealed or not at all.

Another thing that also seems to be blurred is that IF you are carrying concealed, you lose the right to carry open. IOW once you have your weapon concealed and you enter the public square, you are not allowed to suddenly switch and carry open as this would be brandishing and you will be arrested for that.

Good point regarding the SCOTUS though and the whole permitting/concealed backdoor issue. I agree it shouldn't be so. People either break the law or they don't. No amount of permits or registrations are going to stop criminals. Red tape only effects law abiding citizens.

youareadistaerbabe
it is ot that people in your town don't use guns to defend themselves. The fact is they do and you just never hear about it because you live in an ultraliberal "green" communist State.

Yes, I "lived" in Washington State for a while I was in the Navy. it was worse than CA for liberal loons, which you appear to be one.

disasterbabe
I flat out challenge you to post the name of your town so we can independently verify your "facts" about gun deaths vs. gun defenses.

Your "location" says Washington, but that may not be accurate - as you are free to type any location in the "Account" page.

Perhaps you live in Beverly Hills? That's the only place I can think of where your "facts" might be true.

disasterbabe
You poor dear. Owning a gun doesn't give you the right to kill. If you thought that, no wonder you're so upset.
Think of it like free speech. You have the right, but someone can sue you if you libel or slander them.
All better now?

disasterbabe
What is it exactly that we conservatives don't get???

We aren't talking about touchy-feely cases where the exception proves the rule, like you did. We aren't talking about a nation of cry babies who think they can legislate people to do what they should. If these murderers hadn't had a gun, they would have used something else.

And, I frankly disbelieve your statistic that 21 people in your small town were ALL killed do to mistaken identity... while NO ONE successfully defended their property from an intruder. You're either lying, or you live amongst the STUPIDEST people in this nation.

That junk just doesn't pass the smell test.

We live in a nation of laws, not feelings. The constitution is the supreme law of the land. Your "anecdotal" whining doesn't change that. If you want to be a CITIZEN, try getting the congress and state legislatures to pass a gun ban amendment to the constitution, like it should be done.

But if you do... prepare for a war, sister!

CK and Primus
I have been reading posts on TH for quite a while now and I would no more make my personal address available to the right-wing nut jobs who post here than I would walk over to the local gun club with a target pinned to my shirt.

But, I can tell you this - it is a town that is quite affluent in most parts, but fringed by an area that has a fairly numerous population who live in rural and semi-rural poverty.

However, the dead husband, wife and the permanently blinded lover lived less than two blocks away.

I don't know how happy he is about his right to defend himself, he's too dead.


Our rights and freedoms
are guaranteed by an armed citizenry.
That's a fact.
If you think that isn't the case you are a useful idiot.

There will always be people out to get power. When unfettered, a little power isn't enough. Our founders knew this, and gave us the ultimate protection of our freedoms.
The Downside appears to be that when someone flies into a rage and kills her husband, she can use a gun instead of a knife or poison. I guess the latter are preferable somehow.


BILL_B said it well.

Primus54
Gosh, we ask her for the town and she runs. We have to try and reproduce that effect with more libs around here lol.

posocon
If these murderers hadn't had a gun, they would have used something else"

Actually, the research doesn't support that. Murder and suicide are more often crimes of upportunity, they are frequently committed on impulse and the facts show that when impulse becomes more challenged(I.e., having to go to the drugstore to buy poison, having to climb several feet to jump overt the rail of a bridge), the tendency to commit the act lessens to a great degree.

Also, I NEVER said that 21 people have been killed in fiv e years because of mistaken identity, I said they were killed NOT for reasons of self-protection; a drug trade gone bad, a jealous husband, too much booze.

Finally, there is nothing more touchy-feely to me than a bunch of wanna be Clint Eastwood cowboys who are privately hoping some kid with a habit will climb through their windows so they can play Great Avenger and blow his brains out.

dbabe
who said anything about address? town is not the same thing...

fairly affluent? hehe,

fairly numerous population, so why worried about which town?

your story is 100% false and you know it. Even if someone tried to get that outcome they could not. but, it does give a good laugh at your imagination.

Sun the 1
"There will always be people out to get power. When unfettered, a little power isn't enough. Our founders knew this, and gave us the ultimate protection of our freedoms. "

This is not WWII, and you are not in the French resistance. Get used to it.

Anyway, where are your precious guns when I want to possible exzercise MY personal rights to marry a woman, smoke pot, take the morning after pill, to travel to Cuba?

Seems that your concern about rights is pretty selective.

Texas
dbabe, what do you think about that case where the Texas guy shot the two criminals robbing his neighbor?

Do you think anyone in that neighborhood will be robbed again soon?

Disasterbabe
"No, actually, what I want is for you guys to be consistent. I want you to use the same passion for individual rights when the subjects are medication and recreational drugs, morning after pills and reproductive rights, right to die on my own terms, right to travel anywhere, right to privacy when I'm calling a friend or taking a book out of the library, and the right to marry a person of the same sex if I choose."
-----------
So what next? No Laws? Laws are still required to keep the stupid in line. Stupid itself is not illegal but doing something stupid that effects others can be illegal. Like yelling FIRE in a crowded theatre could get somebody trampled and thus stupid in this instance becomes illegal. Alcohol incidences become illegal when people do something stupid after consuming it, like shoot their wife. Even so, some stupid things that do affect others are still protected, like abortion, which makes this next comment by you so laugable.

Disasterbabe"I'm not concerned about guns, I'm concerned about human frailty and innocent victims"
-----------------
So am I, that's why owning a gun is important. Without it I am stuck using a baseball bat on the transexual breaking in my home to steal money for their drug habit.


disastrousmoron
"Anyway, where are your precious guns when I want to possible exzercise MY personal rights to marry a woman, smoke pot, take the morning after pill, to travel to Cuba?"

You have most of those rights now, though there is some paperwork involved wiuth Cuban travel. It was a Democrat was started the embarago, and eight presidents from both parties since have never seen fit to lift it. Sorry, I like Cuban cigars, too.

Legalize weed for all I care, move to California and marry another dyke if you want, and PLEASE do the world a favor and abort anything some drunk guy might have implanted in you.

AZ Phil
You're such a nice, civil guy.

Is anybody on this thread still wondering why I won't disclose the name of my town?

CK Hustler
"dbabe, what do you think about that case where the Texas guy shot the two criminals robbing his neighbor?"

I think it was the happiest and most meaningful day of his life.

It was interesting to me that he knew his neighbors weren't even home, but their stuff was definitely worth two human lives. Now THAT's a true conservative!!

BTW, what did YOU think about the kid who appeared at the wrong address (in La.) in a hHalloween costume and got shot in the face by one of your gun-toting right wing home defenders?

Disasterbabe & her WET DREAMS
Though the DC v Heller decision was a welcome one; regardless of how this court might have ruled; any decision would have no effect on this countries 90,000,000 gun owners who collectively own over 400,000,000 guns. IGNORANUSES like disasterbabe have this fantasy that if the court had ruled against an Individual Right or the 2nd Amd were rescinded, (LOL & Lotsa Luk); guns and gun violence would magically disappear. IN HER WET DREAMS! This doofus obviously believes we’re like the docile “SHEEPLE” in Australia or the UK who obediently complied when ordered to turn in their guns when gun bans were imposed. DONT THINK SO! Here attempted confiscation will get you our guns BULLETS 1ST. Any other Libturds like Disasterbabe out there with another WET DREAM?

BTW: I also live in one of the expensive gated communities you referred to. But no where in the 2nd Amd do I find restrictions limiting gun ownership to people like me or those living in trailers. It applies to EVERYONE. So stop blowing smoke up our a** and STFU.

This is not about - Disasterbabe
Yup, and the person who goes out, gets drunk, then comes home and shoots his wife and kids, girlfriend, whoever else, would never kill them with his own hands, a baseball bat, or some other means. Guns don't cause crime no matter what your dim, leftwing, anti-gun, feminist buddies might think and talk about when telling each other how wicked and evil men are.

It's far better for the woman, or whoever else to be disarmed and unable to defend themself against a stronger attacker. If you believe that guns cause crime then sit at home by your phone with 911 on speed dial and wait for the police to find your body.

Of course we could try prohibition again which stopped all the drinking in this country, didn't it? Then if we repealed the 2d Amendment the country would be perfectly safe. Wouldn't it? I sorta doubt it myself.


Lott and Kleck
This "study" was challenged and discarded years ago. Lott and Kleck aren't even speaking to each other, and Kleck has discounted many of the results that were originally published.

Oh they do, yes
""But for the four dissenters, the preface limits the right to keep and bear arms to military purposes. In their view, if the Framers of the Second Amendment wanted private individuals to have guns for hunting and self-defense, they would have said so.""

The four dissenters know full well what the Founders meant. All these good Justices have read the Federalist and anti-Federalist papers; they know but they lie. These four dissenters are of the "Organic/Living" Constitution crowd which feel the Constitution is what ever their elitist sensibilities allow.

They are people with out honor or integrity. To object to the Peoples' Right to Keep and Bear Arms on a personal level is one thing, to claim it does not exist is just a flat out lie.

"disastrousmoron
"Anyway, where are your precious guns when I want to possible exzercise MY personal rights to marry a woman, smoke pot, take the morning after pill, to travel to Cuba?"

Stay on topic moron. Damn Liberals are incapable of honest discussion.

CKHustler
"dbabe, what do you think about that case where the Texas guy shot the two criminals robbing his neighbor?"

To answer your question, I would have charged the guy (Joe Horn)with 2nd-degree murder. Why? Because neither his life nor his family were in any danger. He saw a robbery, called the cops, and that should have been that, in my opinion.

Now THIS is a better example:

http://fav.or.it/post/194179

The nub of this is that two kids around 21, ARMED, decided to rob a guy 50 years their senior, and got rewarded with a bad case of lead poisoning.

I think the guy in Texas was wrong to shoot some guys over his neighbor's (probably insured) possessions, whereas the one in FL is a perfect example of self-defense based on imminent danger.

CKHustler
Now I'm nitpicking MYSELF, but the post above should have said a "burglary", not a robbery. Big difference, legally.

Ragner
This is first time I've posted on TH in about three weeks because I finally felt overwhelmed by the crude, racist, ignorant name calling and insults that seem to define the entire blog.

Thanks to you and your last post, I can see that I made the right choice. I don't know how it's possible to be so full of hatred -- do you actually foam at the mouth, or are you on drugs?

I can see that the conservative mentality and sense of civility come from a world that I think of as an existential hell. I would feel sorry for you but I have way more fun talking to real people who want to actually exchange points of view.

Bye, all.

disastrousmoron
"You're such a nice, civil guy."

Most people agree. I was pointing out how you're complaining about not having rights you do in fact already have.

Maybe if you weren't constantly coming on here, and seemingly always on the rag, berating people for everything, you would get treated more nicely. You know, more flies with honey than vinegar, that whole theory?

a right with limits?
I find it interesting that even in this case, rights have government imposed limits. Somehow the phrase "congress shall make no law" and the phrase "shall not be infringed" now mean "with government exceptions".

For those who do not understand the term "arms" that includes all weapons of offense and defense. In the 1800's this included knives, swords, pikes, spears, firearms, cannons and bombs. The purpose was to effectively defend ones self and the state. The aim was to be able to raise a militia that could repel a standing army.

If you want to form a militia today to repel a standing army you would need more than a handgun or hunting rifle. Yes we now have a standing army to repel the enemy without, but are disarmed to repel the enemy within.

State amendment tend to be clearer on this subject, at least the ones written before 1900. The states wanted to make sure that they could defend themselves against other states and the federal government as well as foreign invaders. The federal amendment was to reflect this attitude.

Remember that the Constitution was written to limit and specify the federal government's role and power. This is made clear in the Ninth and Tenth amendments.

Ragner
Thank you!

Sandy
I largely agree with you, but all rights have limitations. The First Amendment doesn't permit slander and libel, for example (well, except for the NY Times).

AZPhil
I would love for him to be my neighbor. Good thing we have a right to a jury of peers. If only every neighborhood had a guy willing to defend the property of his neighborhood, our crime rates would plummet.

Texas has a law that you can use deadly force to protect you or your neighbors property. That law is legally why he got off. Him being in Texas and everyone siding with the law abiding, rather than the criminals is why he actually got off.

But, then we have dbabe siding with the criminals...typical lib

AZPhil, I just got my hands on ...
a Cohiba Siglo II (I think?). I'm not a cigar smoker, but I assisted a friend who recently moved to Canada and that was my reward. Can't wait for the next poker night to break it out and give it a try.

Ragner
Haha...I guess you did all of us a big favor. Very well description of what libs really do think as well. Since we banned them...they will be gone. Reminds me of a quote from Reagan...I found this on Brainyquote, so if its false, please let me know :P

"My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes."
Ronald Reagan

The Reason...
The reason that the Founding Fathers did not include the specific wording in the Second Amendment to announce to the world that Americans retain the "right" to hunt with firearms, or that we now have a protected "right" to self defense, is simply because they found it totally unnecessary to say so.

It was then and still is now, basic common sense that we are allowed to feed our families with the meat of wild animals and that we have the pre-existing basic human right of self defense.

The reason the Founders did not specifically include self defense and hunting in the Bill of Rights is simply because they found it extremely unlikely that the "right" to hunt or to defend ones' own life would be questioned by any court of law.

In fact, most of the argument against the Bill of Rights itself was that the people of that time period thought the ten elements of the Bill of Rights were redundant and unnecessary to include in the founding documents. Thankfully, the Bill of Rights supporters like Madison, Jefferson, Mason and others, won the day.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

RE: Disasterbabes’ departure
HOOOOORAY!
NOW STAY GONE!!

CK
Okay, but I still don't think you should kill someone because they are stealing furniture or TVs or whatever.

FROG
"a Cohiba Siglo II (I think?). "

Okay, now my mouth is watering! Thanks a lot!!! Even among Cubans, Cohibas are the creme de la creme.

Ragner
Can you bang out some quick posts to Hal D. Ickhead, Robert the "Naval Aviator", and Left Angle? Please?

Disasterbabe... "gaze at our navels"?

Who's doing the navel gazing?

Me, who quotes validated and peer-reviewed studies by world-class sociologists and criminologists?

Or YOU who quotes a little piece of anecdotal experience in your own home town from your reading of your local newspaper about a couple of victims?


That doesn't even pass the laugh test.

CK Hustler: Re: Reagan quote:
Ive heard the same quote but cant verify the source.

Sandy
You wrote:

"Remember that the Constitution was written to limit and specify the federal government's role and power."

Of course you are correct here. I find it quite disturbing that Associate Justices Stevens and Breyer don't even seem to realize that the Bill of Rights was specifically meant to limit the government's reach when concerned with the pre-existing and common sense rights of a free people.

The fact that Stevens didn't think the Founders would have self-limited their powers in this regard is very unsettling to me.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

Ah, disasterbae, now you're making

up your own facts, too, I see. Then running for the hills when the heat's turned up.

Well, in case you check back, I don't know where you got the idea that Kleck and Lott's studies were "discarded" (discarded by WHOM?), but that's pure BS.

Those are still considered definitive landmarks in the field, and Lott's kept his stats updated.

You must be confusing them with Bellesiles, whose "study" was ridiculed, pulled by the publisher, disavowed by his university, after which they promptly fired HIM.

If I vote for John McCain
If I do end up casting a vote for John McCain, it will be for one reason. That would be to prevent more appointments to the United States Supreme Court like Stevens, Breyer, Souter and Ginsburg.

I'm frankly horrified that the SCOTUS nearly found a part of the Bill of Rights to be unconstitutional.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

AZPhil
Re: Posts to Hal,(itosis) Donahue, Delusional Robert, (captain of the bath tub fleet), Left behind Angle, loony Lilly, and the rest of the Libturds who infest TH:

Yes, I used to send them responses, which shot down their arguments in flames. But they keep coming back for more abuse. So Ive given up. They are a disease for which there seems to be no cure. But to quote an unknown source: “LIBERALISM IS A MENTAL DISEASE”.

Re: The case in Texas, if I had been
a neighbor I would have started a drive for the neighbors to collect money for his defense and give him a reward.

By belief is when someone starts on the road of breaking the law by theft or what ever they deserve just about anything they get.

If they are coming through my house they are going to be aptly rewarded.

Ragner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_Is_a_Mental_Disorde r

Liberalism is a mental disorder was from Michael Savage's book. Just so you know who the source was.

BTW I totally agree that it must be some sort of chemical deficiency in the reasoning area of the brain.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

Ragner
Just so you know, the resident "naval aviator" has been repeatedly flagged, so he comes back often under aliaases, usually ending in "29" and claiming "texas". (see above at 1:08PM).

So...work your magic!

Mayor Richard Daley Quote
“If they think that’s the answer, then they’re greatly mistaken. Then why don’t we do away with the court system and go back to the Old West? You have a gun and I have a gun, and we’ll settle in the streets.” —Chicago Mayor Richard Daley protesting the legal challenge to Chicago’s gun ban after the Supreme Court’s Heller ruling

I would personally love to go back to the "wild" west years of 1870 to 1885. Violent crime was unbelievably low back then. Murders were quite rare in fact.

Violent crime today is significantly worse than the "wild" west years when just about everyone carried a gun.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter


LOL, Savetheguns

Yeah, and the appeal process was very abbreviated:

"You ready to say yer prayers now, varmint?"


National Center for Policy Analysis
This is from the NCPA:


• In 1880, wide-open towns like Virginia City, Nev., Leadville, Colo., and Dallas had no homicides.

• From 1870 to 1885, the five Kansas railheads of Abilene, Caldwell, Dodge City, Ellsworth and Wichita had a total of 45 homicides, or an average of three per year - a lower homicide rate than New York City, Baltimore and Boston.

• Sixteen of the 45 homicides were committed by duly authorized peace officers, and only two towns " Ellsworth in 1873 and Dodge City in 1876 " ever had as many as five killings in any one year.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

While we're worshipping "the framers"
Let's talk about how great the 4th Amendment is. I really love that one. It's the one that says if you're going to search me, you have to have a warrant, and if you're going to arrest me, you have to have probable cause. I think the 2nd Amendment is worth holding onto if only to uphold the Fourth. Don't you agree?

AZPhil
Yes, I see “capt” Robert is back. But if past performance is an indication, he’ll not go away. So I simply ignore him. And re: his post latest post: there seems to be some truth in it since some of the framers of the Constitution had concerns that strong central government could become abusive. 2 Centuries later, it turns out they were right. This is ONE reason the 2nd Amd was included. So re: Roberts post: Even a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day.

AZPhil
I am of the opinion of Vic. Once he CHOSE to break the law and steal, he deserves what he gets. I have no sympathy for idiots or law-breakers.

So...
So, the next time you here some well-intentioned but sadly misinformed dolt comment about going back to the "Wild, Wild, West" years, you can say, great, let's do that.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

Savetheguns
That ignorent statement of Mayor Dailey's just illustrates how stupid and uneducated the liberals really are. Like all liberals he gets his history from the TV and comic books.

All of those shootouts in the street like the opening scene from Gunsmoke are a myth.

Prima Volta
The 2nd Amendment lets us keep all the amendments. Without it, the government, if driven to do so, could simply take the citizenry by force and make this country a dictatorship. So, I agree, the 4th is great and so are the other 9 in the Bill of Rights.

CK
"Once he CHOSE to break the law and steal, he deserves what he gets."

Well for me personally, I couldn't kill someone over stealing stuff, even if it was my stuff, UNLESS they brought guns with them.

Now, I am sort of on your side here. Let's say someone broke into my house one night, and I couldn't tell if they were armed or not. Then I would err on the side of caution, PRESUME I or family members were in imminent danger, and commence firing - after I determined it wasn't simply someone up getting a drink.

But, would I chase the guy six city blocks and then shoot him in the back? No.


Voltage
More succinctly, I just agree that all 10 Amendments are worth preserving.

BUT I think the 3rd Amendment is passe, like laws regulating stagecoach traffic. I also think the 7th ("In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.") could be, shall we say, indexed to $100? :) The dollar value in 2008 is simply ridiculous, though I think (could be mistaken) this is the one pertaining to double jeopardy.

Yeah, Prima Volta

I don't get your point, either.

I'm with CK; ALL the Articles in the Bill of Rights are great.


Why the 2nd amemendment is challenged
I go into greater detail in my blog (http://tonyguinta.blogtownhall.com/), but the whole "state militia" argument is just a distraction. Title 10 Section 311 of the US Code defines "militia" as all able-bodied males between 17 and 45 who are US citizens or who intend to become US citizens. Additionally, female citizens who are members of the National Guard are included in the "militia".

Bottom line: "militia" does not equal "National Guard".

Read more here for references: http://tonyguinta.blogtownhall.com/

AZPhil
I wouldn't choose to kill either if it wasn't necessary, but I think that we have to start taking the side of the law-abiding citizens rather than the criminals. Im sick and tired of liberals calling the criminals victims. This is the greatest economical nation ever and the best they can do is burglarize someone? Pathetic.

Tony
Good to see another MN guy here. When I get home, Ill make sure to visit to get your take. I also have a post on that in my blog, just click my name and its the top one.

AZPhil

Double jeopardy is the 5th.



AZPhil
In your 2:08PM post you said:

"But, would I chase the guy six city blocks and then shoot him in the back? No."

That's a very good decision. I've taught self defense for years. Once the perpetrator begins a retreat, the initial attack comes to an end.

Any pursuit of a retreating perpetrator begins a second and entirely new confrontation and the perpetrator can actually have the right of self defense in this new second confrontation and could be justified in stopping the original intended victim with a fatal blow of some sort.

Please, please, everyone should get this. You cannot pursue and fire at a criminal who has already begun a hasty retreat. If you confront a perpetrator with a firearm and he suddenly remembers that he has urgent business in another county, call 911, take note of everything, write it down, call a lawyer, whatever, but do not pursue.

Any pursuit in that regard begins a completely new confrontation.
Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter



BrianR & CK
I think "Prima Volta" was attempting a back-handed shot at all of those "rights" he thinks he's lost under the Patriot Act.

You know - his library borrowing records and such.

Hahahaha, Primus!

Well, if so, it backfired.

Badly.


Primus54
His argument is made out of ignorance then. I see no real rights that anyone lost out of the Patriot Act. First you have to be dealing with a foreign country to even be considered. Then they have to have probable cause. On top of that, they could do all of the same stuff before, only the process was very long to get there, so the Patriot Act fast-tracks the process. That is the main reason the act was passed. So, really he is complaining about nothing.

BrianR
"Double jeopardy is the 5th."

Of course you are right -I always forget because I just remember the "I plead the 5th" section.

In that case, do the 3rd and 7th really serve much of a purpose nowadays?

Yeah, Phil, I think they do

When I was a kid, my Dad was assigned to -- and we lived in -- Cyprus while the Greek/Turkish disute was going on there, mid-50s. It was absolutely common for my Dad to find Tommies sleeping in his car when he went to go to work in the morning. That's recent history; my lifetime.

The reason we take it so for granted that soldiers can't just barge into our houses is because that Amendment's always been there, so it's never become practice. Further, IMO, it reinforces the 4th, in that it establishes that the military has no more right to barge into your house without a warrant than the cops do.

As to the 7th, yeah, it still assures that you have a right to have your civil suit heard in front of a jury, regardless of how inconvenient to any party, INCLUDING the government. The $25 mentioned may be somewhat meaningless, I suppose, but the right itself is essential, PARTICULARLY now in an era when everyone's trying to force litigants into arbitration instead of facing court and a jury.


BrianR
Okay, that explanation makes sense.

When you say "while the Greek/Turkish dispute was going on", well, has it ended? :)

BrianR
BTW, if you want to give some trolls an a$s-whipping, go to Sowell's column...

Jerabaub
WELL SAID...WELL THOUGHT OUT...WELL WRITTEN

Not many people have READ, RESEARCHED, and UNDERSTOOD the Constitution for what it is. Many do not know how much time, effort, thought, discussion, and debate went into creating this near perfect system of government. I can be certain that less than 1% of the population has read the constitutional convention notes in order to understand how the founders thought about liberty and their avowel to anything they could to prevent tyranny by government. As well, I am certain that less than 5% of the people have ever read the Federalist Papers which, in part, answer many of the concerns that the citizens had in relation to the new Constitution. Of course, most people are unaware that the Constitution was written by the states and for the states in order to conFEDERATE the states under something better than the Articles of Confederation. (How many have read that document?) The 10 Amendments were put there to insure the individuals rights IN RELATION TO GOVERNMENT; it is a bill of protections and not a list of rights. How many have read the preamble to the first 10 amendments to understand why they are there? Lessons in civics are sorely lacking in the U.S. and it shows. Everything I mentioned is available online or in a library. No one has an excuse for ignorance in these matters. READ AMERICA--- JUST DO IT!

Well, Phil

They divided the island, so I heard there's an accord in place.

As I think about that $25 in the 7th A, that was about a monthly high-end wage.

So by instituting Small Claims Courts, which in California can adjudicate cases up to $5K (a high-end wage), they've given litigants the option of waiving juries for smaller cases adjusted for inflation, if you think about it.



I spent a lot of time at the Sowell column yesterday; I must have at least 20 comments on there already!



BrianR
"I spent a lot of time at the Sowell column yesterday; I must have at least 20 comments on there already!"

Me too - but NO, TODAY'S column! Trust me on this - Capt Robbie's out for a (nother) swim.

Phil... Robert?

You know, here in LA we have a lot of junkies and alkies and other nitwits who wander down the middle of the road, shaking their fists at the sky and having very loud conversations with God. Nobody pays them any attention; they're simply background noise in the urban landscape.

You try to avoid running over them in your car, mainly because it's such a hassle dealing with insurance companies and getting your car fixed.



Same deal. Robert's the "background noise" here at TH, he and his bud HalD.


4th Amendment gutted today
The FISA bill that is up for a senate vote today expands executive surveillance powers and gives immunity to the telecom companies that were complicit in Bush's illegal spying program outed in 2005. It retroactively decriminalizes Bush's *felony* eavesdropping activity and makes it very difficult to hold anyone responsible for crimes committed under the guise of prosecuting the "War on Terror." McCain and Obama both are supporting this legislation, presumably because of the political inconvenience of pointing out that our president is a war criminal. I used to be a very avid supporter of Obama. Now, needless to say, I am much less enthusiastic about him.

Prima Volta

What exactly does that have to do with the topic, which is gun rights?


BrianR Constitutional Rights
The right to carry a gun is affirmed in the Constitution, as is the right to due process of law. So this conversation is one about constitutional rights. If your right to due process can be circumvented, all your other rights can also be, which means they are not really rights at all. We just call them that for old time's sake, but really, "everything changed after 9/11."

BrianR
Prima Volta's post has nothing to do with the topic. It is typical modern-day progressive behavior. They are unable to persuade using logic and reason; thus they attempt to catch persons in their falliacious arguements.
They have the right to have a difference of opinion, but please use logic and reason.


John Shaft
Please see my post #118.

NOTHING in the Patriot Act gives
the Federal Government the authority to search an American's house or his personal effects without a serch warrant. Based on that, there is no violation of the 4th Amendment.

If it did I would be against it.

Based on that, I don't see a consistency problem.

I live in a Trailer Disasterbabe
Why should I not have a gun? I hunt because it is cheaper to get meat that way for my family then going to the store. We have a known drug addict living at the end of the block, should I not be allowed to protect myself and my kids from him when he is tweaking on his meth? Or is it because our average income is only about $50,000+ per trialer? I am not sure what you are saying, but it sounds racist, classist, elitist, and most of all foolish disasterbabe. Heck, I even have my carry permit for here and three other states. I am betting I have been fingerprinted for more background checks relating to my work then you are years old. It isn't that we cling to our guns, but that we cling to the constitution my dear which allows me the right to worship, own guns, speak aloud, be free from search, and the right to a jury and other things. My dear, are you against just one of our rights, or all of them? The 2nd Amendment is a CIVIL RIGHT. Now get your elite racist class seperating butt out of here. I may be poor compared to you, but I understand my rights better than you which makes me richer anyday!

Selling Your Life:
When you work, you are selling part of your life. You acquire money for time spent at some job. You then spend that money for items for yourself and your family. Those items might be food, housing, or clothing. Or they may be things like TVs or iPods. It doesn't matter what they are since they are all bought with part of your life.

To replace them you must use another part of your life. So if they are stolen or destroyed by someone breaking into your house, they are actually taking part of your life away. Now tell me, is part of your life worth their life?

When a criminal robs you, he is placing his life as equal to whatever he is stealing from you. If he is taking 50 cents, he is setting his life as worth 50 cents. The trouble is that he may be setting your life as worth 50 cents too. It is estimated that the average burglar, for instance, does over $400,000 damage to other per year. This may be due to what he takes or what he breaks - or to your medical costs to recover. Of course, he does not get this amount. He's lucky if he makes minimum wage.

A single bullet may cost over a dollar. That is part of my life, I will admit. But I'm willing to give up that part of my life, if necessary, to insure that the criminal doesn't take more of my life or more of someone else's life. I won't chase them if they run; there aren't many who can outrun a bullet.

Goodbye DisasterBabe
You said a lot of things but backed up none of it.

Sounds like you live in the western side of the state where the people vote themselves higher taxes. (What does that tell the rest of you?)

In the Seattle area, most people think guns are icky. It's lonely out here, I'm tellin' ya.

Anyway DB - Flounce away with a huff. All evidence shows that you're an angry, immature know-nothing who likes to talk out of her a$$.

sheepdog;
There are sheep; there are wolves who prey on them; and there are sheepdogs who try to defend the sheep. Congrats if you are a sheepdog.

There are also wolfhounds. They don't really care about the sheep one way or another but the sheep make excellent bait for their favorite prey!

sheepdog
Thanks - I've been looking for that. ARF ARF

Loba
I sympathize with you, surrounded by disasterbabes as you are!

2nd Amendment
One thing that I find simply amazing is that everyone - from the "learned legal experts" all the way down either forget or neglect one simple term: militia.

So, what is a militia? there are multiple definitions, but the primary one here is (from dictionary.com) "all able-bodied citizens", "citizen soldiers", "the entire body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service; "their troops were untrained militia"; "Congress shall have power to provide for calling forth the militia"--United States Constitution "
Further, especially in a historic context, militia (e.g. able-bodied males at the time) were required to provide their own arms and other supplies. How would it be possible to muster in an emergency if one didn 't have ones' (personal) firearms handy?

If one were to look into the laws on the books at around 1776, one would find that it was actually *illegal* for a citizen to be in public *unarmed*.

Then take the opening phrase of the Declaration - "right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness". One is deprived of one's right to life - and arguably, liberty - if one is deprived of the means to self-preservation. This very concept should hold that attempts of the various levels of government to disarm the citizenry a direct violation of our Constitutional rights; all such capricious "gun control" laws should be struck down.


Safety if you give up your guns:
When my son was in college, the only political group on campus was the Young Democrats Club. I'm proud to say I taught him right; he is a good conservative. But he also likes to argue in a logical way. He joined for the laughs. The professor who headed the group was a Democrat hoping to find some young person to urge up the chain to President.

One of their meetings discussed gun control. One girl there insisted that if a law was passed to ban guns that all criminals would give them up. Her arguement went something like this: "If it was against the law, they would have to give them up!"

Everyone there, including the professor, pointed out that the term "criminal" referred to someone who broke the laws. She still insisted that they wouldn't break that one because it would be against the law. I think disasterbabe is one of this type.

45
"One of their meetings discussed gun control. One girl there insisted that if a law was passed to ban guns that all criminals would give them up. Her arguement went something like this: "If it was against the law, they would have to give them up!"


Funny. I have an idea - why don't we get rid of our military COMPLETELY - that way, there will be no wars:)

disaster
Your (11:55am) post.
You missed the point. Or rather misconstrued it. Perhaps on purpose, touj. I thought you were smarter than that.

I did not imply that guns were to be used to defend your self proclaimed right to do any of those things.
You need someone with a gun to help you get your pot, you ought to get it some other way. You don't need someone with a gun to help you go to Cuba. Use google.
If those are your moral equivalent of the actual rights in our founding documents, I really feel sorry for you.

There will always be would-be tyrants, Our founders knew this. They were not so stupid as to think they escaped the only tyrant in history. They knew that the lust for power would be a constant. Took great pains to build in checks against it. The most powerful check: a citizenry armed.
Perhaps you should read some of the early letters and documents in our history. Start with the Federalist papers. It really has nothing to do with WWII or the French Resistance.
Or maybe you should just move to Cuba.


.45 Caliber
"She still insisted that they wouldn't break that one because it would be against the law."

That's a hoot!!!

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

Save the Guns
I think we should ask every Democrat politician this question: "Is your security detail armed?"

Funny
I think the only time I know of a prominent Democrat's security people being armed with fully automatic machine guns, it was Senator Edward Moore Kennedy (D-MA) aka Teddy aka fat-boy aka Chappaquidick Ted . If I remember correctly, the security-type person carrying the full auto was found to be improperly licensed for it.

I'll bet Mayor Richard Daley of Chicago constantly has competent men by his side carrying all sorts of armaments. His constituents however are not allowed to possess such evil things.

The hypocrisy is simply maddening.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

Prima Volta
Bush is a war criminal? Gee, I have never heard anyone say that before. Maybe you are on to something. Hey let's impeach him. Why don't we impeach Cheney while we are at it. And to top it off, we can execute Karl Rove (we will first waterboard him to watch him beg for his life).

Hey, how about this; Take away Haliburton's business license and jail all the officers of the company.

Once we are all done with that, we can put up all our classified intelligence techniques up for sale on EBay and use the proceeds for paying off the national debt.

You BDS sufferers need to come up with something new. Your liberal mantra has already been worn out.

2nd ammendment
I am retired firearm atty. YOU HIT IT.
"THE RIGHT SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" Great analysis of the 2nd.

Gun Safety Concerns
Now that Washington D.C. residents will soon have a degree of their Second Amendment rights restored to them, I find myself concerned that hundreds of households will have newly purchased firearms in them, without proper gun safety knowledge.

I don't want to read a story next month about the first post-Heller child killed through an accidental firearm discharge in a home. My true hope is that Washington D.C. residents will take this new responsibility VERY SERIOUSLY and learn the basics of gun safety before bringing a new gun into the home.

It's somewhat likely IMO that there will be an accident involving a child and a loaded firearm in Washington D.C. sometime this summer and the major networks (MSM) will be all over it.

I've taught gun safety to about 90,000 children through the Internet in the past ten years and I don't want to read about something tragic coming as a result of the Heller case.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

disasterbabe -- Zero Knowlege of Issue
disasterbage disasterously says: "In the town where I live ..."

OK, STOP RIGHT THERE. You have just disqualified yourself from discussion. You have proven that you have ZERO knowlege of the issue.


WHY IS IT that liberals always look at THEIR CIRCLE OF FRIENDS and believe that can somehow be extrapolated to the whole world?

Happens EVERY time we get a new liberal on board, we have to train them in the use of simple logic. Whatever happens in the "town where you live" can not POSSIBLY be used to refute the studies and statistics that occur nationwide.

This is like when that New York Liberal Elite Moron who was shocked -- SHOCKED -- that Reagan won his second term in a landslide, because NONE of HER friends voted for him!

Guns and Crime
Every now and then a gun-grabber will compare the homicide rate in the US to that in other countries (always ignoring places like Switzerland of course, since data-points like that tend skew the results against what they're looking for.)

It should be noted that crime in the US is higher per capita for ALL sorts of violent crime, not just crimes where a gun would be useful.

So tell me -- if we magically wave a wand that makes all the guns disappear -- what exactly do you think will happen to the crime rate in the US?

Take rape for example: another crime that's higher in the US than elsewhere. Now, !!poof!! no more guns. Uh -- guess what? We'll still have significantly more rapes than other countries.

And if doesn't affect crimes of rape -- and I remind you that ALL violent crimes are higher in the US -- why would any other crime be affected?

There are reasons why violent crime in the US is higher than elsewhere -- the availability of guns is not on the short list.

Libs forget about Israel.
In Israel, nearly everyone is armed.
You see people walking down the street carrying assault rifles along with their shopping bags.

Does Israel have a huge problem with gun violence? (Not including being shot by terrorists) No, it's nearly nonexistant.

I own guns, and people around here Know I own guns. As a result, no one has ever tried to break into my house, or steal my stuff, because they know I'm armed. (and I have big dogs)

Libs may try their usual "Poor victims" diatribes like disaster-in-progressBabe, but they know as well as we do that gun laws mean higher Gun crimes. If a criminal refuses to aknowledge that Stealing is wrong, what makes anyone think they'll follow a gun ban?

DB and her liberal friends in this thread are just exposing their extreme cases of Rectal-Cranial Inversion for all with Working Brains to see.



NObama '08
Seig Heil is now "Yes We Can!".

Vic
I'm not talking about the Patriot Act (although we could discuss that, too). I'm talking about the FISA bill being voted on in the senate RIGHT NOW. Turn on CNN or something for the love of God.

"mainstream"
quote: "Those are a few of many editorial expressions of disgust from the mainstream media over the Supreme Court's ruling"
They are not "mainstream" they are
the hate filled left wing agenda driven media. They named themselves "mainstream"

Responsibilities
The right to bear arms should not be infringed. But with rights come responsibilities. As with so much that is wrong in America nobody talks about one own responsibilities just about "their rights" The point I guess is you have allow irresponsibility in order to maintain rights.

Interesting side note:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-07/uow-bml07080 3.php


Blacks more likely to be shot than whites even when holding harmless objects

Given only a fraction of a second to respond to images of men popping out from behind a garbage dumpster, people were more likely to shoot blacks than whites, even when the men were holding a harmless object such as a flashlight rather than a gun.

The finding comes from a study that is to be published this week in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology. The research used a virtual reality simulation and was prompted by a number of mistaken shootings of unarmed blacks by police officers in recent years. It was directed by Anthony Greenwald, a University of Washington psychologist who examines the unconscious roots and levels of prejudice.

wizzyg --
That's all very interesting, but I don't see how it pertains to the subject at hand.

Unca Alby
I don't mean to nitpick your stats, but the U.S. is ninth in the world in rapes per capita. In South Africa for instance reported rapes are three times higher than the U.S..

But your general point about the presence or non-presence of firearms remains. One is about ten times more likely to be robbed in London right now than in New York city for example and Londoners do not have access to handguns.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

FISA amendment
What is BDS? Is that like BDSM? If it is, you've got me pegged wrong. In any case, my former posts were not in reference to the Patriot Act, though I would be willing to discuss that as well, but the FISA Amendment, supported by both McCain and Obama (though neither showed up to vote on it today). This legislation grants immunity to the telecom companies complicit in illegal wiretapping and expands executive powers to spy secretly on the communications of US citizens. Conservatives, who claim to care so much about the Constitution, are willing to stand by and let this happen. Why? My guess is that it's because Fox News hasn't made an issue of it, so you suppose it must not be important. WAKE UP!

Jack
""I'm talking about the FISA bill being voted on in the senate RIGHT NOW. ""

There is one word in the name of the bill that tips off anyone with 2 working brain cells, obviously you don't qualify.

It's called the "Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act" for a Reason Jack.
Unless you're you're calling a suspected terrorist operative in a foreign country, George W Bush, isn't listening to you when you trade aunt millie's chocolate cake recipe.

Even your new Messiah voted for it, so I guess you better start calling him a BushCo stooge too.

My work means I talk to people all over the globe, from Argentina to China, and I have no worries at all that "BushCo" is listening to my phone calls, if they are, I hope they die of boredom.

While you rail against losing rights you never lost, you support people who want to limit My rights of Free Speech with the "Fairness Doctrine", want to abridge my right to bear arms with Gun Bans, and even my right to eat what I want with "Trans fat bans".

Whose rights are you trying to protect?
American citizens' or terrorists'?

Just curious.


NObama '08
Seig Heil is now "Yes We Can!".

Guns.......funny
POTTER VALLEY, Calif. — A Mendocino County woman who was trying to kill mice in her trailer with a gun ended up shooting herself and another person.

The 43-year-old woman pulled out her .44-caliber Magnum revolver after she saw the mice scurrying across the floor of her trailer on Highway 20 in Potter Valley, sheriff's officials said.

But she accidentally dropped the gun, which went off as it struck the floor. The bullet went through the woman's kneecap, bounced off the keys sitting on the belt loop of a 42-year-old man in the trailer and grazed the man's groin before ending up in his coin pocket.

Authorities did not release the shooting victims' names.

The mice escaped the shooting unharmed


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,378142,00.html

My name's not Jack
It's Prima. Why won't you understand that though they tell us they only listen to "suspected terrorists," under the new legislation, they can in point of fact listen to anyone they want to for any reason. It doesn't mean they are or that they will. But they can, which means they probably will. This is about silencing dissent, which works for you now, but don't you think there will come a time when you would like to exercise your First Amendment rights to voice unpopular views?

wizzyg #144
Surely you don't suggest that Blacks are killed by Whites in numbers that anywhere nearly approach the frequency of Black on Black homicides.

As for police officers, I do agree that they are sometimes irresponsible, surprisingly inexperienced firearms users. This makes it all the more puzzling that you should want to give them a complete monopoly on power in society.

So What? - Reply to wizzyg #149
Two Deptford, NJ police officers were cleaning their firearms outside while enjoying alcoholic beverages. One of the officers discharged his weapon at the other officer's preschool age son, hitting him in the head. Thankfully, the child survived the incident. To my knowledge, little or no official action was taken against the irresponsible officers.

As a responsible firearms owner, my weapons are only cleaned in my basement when I am stone sober. We can't outlaw knuckleheads, but at least the Constitution lets us defend ourselves against tyrants.

wizzyg: OK. I GIVE UP

Does anyone have the foggiest clue what point this guy is trying to make with these anecdotal remarks?

disasterbabe
If you are still there, answer, with statistics not bull lib style. What portion of crimes commited with a gun are commited with legally owned weapons by the owner? I've never seen an answer to this and figure they are all lumped together. A lot of crimes are commited with legally owned weapons but not by the legal owner..i.e. stolen guns.

Prima
By that logic then, they can seize anything of yours saying they have probable cause and make something up. No, they will need to still go through the correct channels to get anything done. They also can only monitor international calls and such. They have to have suspicion that one of the callers is a terrorist. yada, its a lot of the similar stuff it sounds to the Patriot Act.

Sowell might disagree with Stossel
I pointed out when Sowell wrote his piece about the second amendment that Sowell undercut a couple of claims often made to support gun ownership.

One point I believe that Sowell made was that people most often do not hit what they're aiming at. Let me just cut to the chase here.

I think the supporters of guns often present an ideal case in which absolutely everything goes according to the way that gun supporters would like it to go.

The fact is that life is not like that. In real life we reach for our gun and shoot ourselves in the foot. In real life the intruder either gets to our gun before we do, or takes it away from us.

How many cop shows have we seen on TV where one cop says to another "it's one thing to shoot at a target and another thing when you have to kill a man standing in front of you."

This is not to say that I'm against people owning guns who want to. But I do say that the idyllic picture that conservatives paint is not real life.

Proud lib &Higene
Proud lib, the " real life" situations you give are almost laughable! They are the exception to the rule not the opposite. I assure you, I hit what I shoot at, man or animal. I also assure you they won't get mine before I do nor will I shoot myself in the foot.
Higene, You obviously haven't been on the recieving end of a verticle butt stroke when you say "the ammo is the dangerous part". Believe me they can kill also.

Wrong....
"The fact is that life is not like that. In real life we reach for our gun and shoot ourselves in the foot. In real life the intruder either gets to our gun before we do, or takes it away from us."

http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm

Numbers don't lie...

Double-Wrong....
"I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You are outgunned. No matter what your arsenal somebody has a bigger one, and if they decide to take you down, probably without any warning as often happens with urban street gangs of today, they'll just do it, and there's not a damn thing you can do to stop it."

http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm

Same to you, numers don't lie...

WASHINGTON IS'NT A COMMUNIST GREEN STATE
MR VIC OF S.C
IN MY STATE IT TAKES 15 MINUTES AND 60 DOLLARS TO GET A CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT.GOOD FOR 5 YEARS.NO TEST,NO CLASSES,(LIKE MOST STATES). SCILENCERS AND MACHINE GUNS ARE LEGAL WITH PERMITS.50 CAL ARE LEGAL.WASHINGTON IS A OPEN CARRY STATE AS WELL.ALLTHOUGH LAW ENFORCMEMT NEEDS TO BE EDUCATADED TO THIS FACT.WASHINGTON HAS LESS RESTRICTIONS ON FIRE ARMS THAN MOST STATES,ALLMOST NONE.
THIS IS STILL RON PAUL COUNTRY,HE GOT 71% IN MY COUNTY.
I'M SURE THERE'S FEW DISASTERBABES IN S.C. MOST LIKELY FROM CALI. OR N.Y. MY SISTER WAS ONE TILL SHE ALLMOST LOST HER LIFE TO VIOLENT CRIME.NOW SHE IS A CRACK SHOT WITH HER PISTOL AND VERY PRO GUN.
I'M GLAD THAT 5 JUSTISTES GOT IT RIGHT.PEOPLE WHO TAKE AN OATH TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION AND THEN BREAK THAT OATH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THEIR POSITION.
"AN ARMED SOCITEY IS A POLITE SOCIETY"

KIMBER MAN

Higene - Same Old SH*T

This IGNORANUS, suffering from a terminal case of rectal - cranial inversion, continues to bore us with the same old WET DREAM fantasy: banning ammo. Sorry to bust her bubble, but similar cases have been tried and shot down both in State and Federal courts.
Attorneys arguing against ammo bans were Law Professors Steven Halbrook and Don Kates; the same who argued Heller v DC. So gun ban Libturds have abandon this legally flawed tactic. I’d suggest she go back to her drug induced sleep and not return till her head clears and actually has something intelligent to say. But with an apparent not much above room temp, this isn’t likely to happen. LMAO.

Higene and Proud Liberal
Awfully quiet...

The numbers just kinda take all the air out of your position, don't they?

Funny how that happens, huh?

Max
Talk about downers...

its like saying...its no use for the NY Giants to try and win the superbowl, they don't have a chance. lol

CKHustler
It's more like watching the Patriots celebrate 19 and 0 before the Giants humiliated them....

You Make Absurd Points
Higene,

I have no problem with your seeking the protection of government agents, since you are obviously too timid to protect yourself from attack. Your problem is that you transfer your insecurity to the general population. If everyone had your attitude, police officers would never leave their precinct building for fear of confrontation with criminals. Soldiers would never engage the enemy.

We all don't live in fear of street gangs. Most of us seek no contact with them on their turf. In all likelihood, we would engage them when they came to attack us. As a defender on your own property, you gain many advantages over an intruder.

Judging by your hoplophobia, you have no military or law enforcement experience. Many firearms owners have such training and experience. I served three enlistments as a soldier. Your analogies about being outgunned by a common criminal just don't apply to someone who is committed to self protection and survival. I fail to see how surrendering my firearms and joining "forces" with timid, tepid weaklings increases my personal safety.


Second Amendment
All the big newspapers and Chicago, San Fransico,Washington D.C. just don't get it. The rest of the USA is safer then any of these places and the rest of the USA doesn't ban guns.
Obama and the many democratic non believers like clinton ,Kennedy,.Will never understand
The true meaning of American Freedom.The right to protect our selves families and our freedom.
thank god for the second amendment.

CKHustler
All they have to do is say they have reason to believe you're involved in terrorist activity, and voilà! You are! Most of us live well below the radar, but ask anyone at Guantanamo if being a regular joe six pack protected them from harm.

Higene -- Stop'n'Go
"Stop right there, Unca Alby"

Stopped - - -

Ok, now go!

"Stossel himself used an anecdote to illustrate his case."

Exactly. To ILLUSTRATE his case.

Most of you liberals use anecdotes to PROVE your case.

Your circle of friends prove nothing. Stossel, among others, uses anecdotes along with citing studies, statistics, numbers, data, analysis, and expert opinion.

You know: facts.


"I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You are outgunned."

That was irrelevant when you said it before and it's still irrelevant.

Also....
If anyone (I'm looking at you Higene and Proud Liberal) needs further evidence that banning guns just does not work...

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html

Australia is now suffering the consequences of a gun ban. Just go to YouTube and do a search on British and guns and there are viseos of huge protests by the citizens demanding their guns back.

Once more for the cheap seats...

IT JUST DOESN'T WORK....

Huh?
"All they have to do is say they have reason to believe you're involved in terrorist activity, and voilà! You are! Most of us live well below the radar, but ask anyone at Guantanamo if being a regular joe six pack protected them from harm."

You're joking, right?? Name one instance where this happened in the USA??? And what does this hysterical nonsense have to do with the 2nd amendment??

Is the tin foil hat on a little tight tonight??

Funny...
Prima Volta uses the typical tactic of saying something so completely over the top to take the focus off the completely flawed argument of the anti-gunners.

It's ok Prima Volta, Higene, et al...

Everyone already knows you're wrong, you can admit it...

Proud Liberal thinks he knows Reality
"In real life we reach for our gun and shoot ourselves in the foot. In real life the intruder either gets to our gun before we do, or takes it away from us."

You know, you're absolutely correct.

Sometimes, in real life, that happens. Just like those statistics of yours that you had the good sense to erase that you purported claimed the burglar will get to the gun 50% of the time.

Newsflash: real life isn't black and white. It's shades of gray.

That means, Ok, you've got a 50% chance of getting to your gun to defend your life, family and property. So you take the gun away. NOW what are your chances?

ZERO.

Because the odds aren't PERFECT, you want to truncate them to ZERO? That makes no sense.

Proud Lib. DEAL WITH IMPERFECTION

Re: Your post of 9:34 PM # 158.

Yes. Just as there are clueless idiots driving cars, some of the same own guns. If you’re not properly trained, or lack proper mental attitude, DON’T OWN A GUN, CAR, OR ANYTHING ELSE LIABLE TO CAUSE HARM. Though there are cases where even trained people misuse guns, including cops, such occurrences are rare, but will continue to happen. This is because, despite attempts at Social Engineering, mostly by Liberals to control behavior and create a Perfect, (safe) society, the inconvenient truth is: SH*T HAPPENS, and it always will. FACT. We don’t live anywhere near “PERFECT”. It aint even on the map. So until it is: GET OVER IT and learn to deal with life’s IMPERFECTIONS.


SaveTheGuns -- Rape Stats
"I don't mean to nitpick your stats, but the U.S. is ninth in the world in rapes per capita. In South Africa for instance reported rapes are three times higher than the U.S."

Pick all you want. I don't want any nits around!

My question though is, what are the statistics among industrialized nations?

For example, gun-grabbers are always comparing "gun crimes" in the US to Britain. Well, the very phrase "gun crime" is self-limiting. What's important is "CRIME", particularly violent and property crime.

As I understand it, ALL of our crime categories, including rape, are much higher than Britain, even though they're working their hardest to catch up with us.

So if all our "unqualified crime" is higher than Britain's, how does it matter that our "gun crime" happens to ALSO be higher?

Who is this "disasterbabe" moron?
It has to be someone writing opinion pieces for Handgun Control, Inc. She's using all of their propaganda and no real facts. She has certainly ignored the fact that about two and one half million people per year are protected from crime by the mere posession (no shots fired) of a firearm. This is, of course not an "official" statistic since most of these incidents are unreported and certainly not a statistic for disaserwhatever since it doesn't fit the HCI talkiing points.

"She" certainly doesn't deserve all of the attention she's received here. Ignore her and she'll dry up and go away. That will be a real disaster for her.

Disasterbabe = Victim
oneeye,

In a natural or man-made disaster there are only three types of people; casualties, refugees and survivalists. By her own admission, Disasterbabe chooses to be in one of the two victim categories. She will dial 911 as the s**t hits the fan and wait for the grim reaper to come.

...for self-protection
Shortly after I returned from Vietnam, a carload of at least 4 thugs made several attempts to force me off the road - we were the only 2 vehicles on the road. 3 rounds from my 9mm Parabellum LLama into the hood of their car ended that situation.

What would have happened if I had not had my gun? Let's just say it is a pretty good bet those gang-bangers were not trying to force me off the road to provide directions to my destination. Most likely, I would not be here today!!!

Additionally, my aggressive defense probably gave those jerks "pause" because they would not know if their next intended victim would also have a gun.

Prima Volta
Yea, seriously, name one instance where an innocent man, and proven innocent, was taken from his regular life and sent there. Just one case. Someone before tried this, though the person they chose was actually convicted of many crimes, so that didn't work. But, you can try now.

Higene -- Factual Inflamation
"At the risk of inflaming Unca Alby with another anecdote, I'll remind you that A 43 year man ..."

Oh yah, I'm totally inflamed now! Grr Grr Grr!

I will remind YOU that Larry Elder's recent column has a lot more statistics for you. I suggest you read up on the topic. It might help to have a few facts.

Suffice it to say: YES, people have accidents with guns, YES, people are accidentally killed with guns, YES, criminals sometimes get to "shoot first", YES, criminals sometimes have honest citizens "out-gunned", and YES, sometimes there is no opportunity to "shoot back."

BUT ...

There are ENOUGH times when people DON'T have accidents, DON'T shoot someone accidentally, DO get to "shoot first", DO get to "shoot back", ARE NOT "out-gunned";

AND there are ENOUGH times when ALL you need to do is brandish the weapon, and the thugs will be scared off.

No, those occurrences are not 100% of the cases. But, for those occurrences, LIVES ARE SAVED.

Isn't that one of the regular mantra's of the Left?

"If just one life can be saved ..." ??

Apocalypse Now
Stossel was ever so briefly on the right track when he wrote, “The right of self-defense -- against homegrown tyrants,” before he quickly devolved into using common criminals as his examples. Now is the time this corporate owned American government learned what “the spirit of resistance” truly means!

Christian sisters and brothers the day of the Lord is at hand and be not counted among the idolatrous money-changers and flag-wavers when Judgment Day arrives!

Do you serve Christ or do you serve America? Are you with us or are you against us?

Dominus vobiscum

Higene -- 1 of 2
"Domestic violence and street violence in America is a 'cold war'. It flames up into a hot war from time to time when someone opens fire for some reason or for no reason. But mostly it just simmers under a constant low level flame due to a tenuous balance of power amongst the various gun wielders."

Oh that's so poetic I could cry. Completely irrelevant of course.

"That's the thrust of your position, isn't it? 'Be always vigilant and prepared to brandish your gun and the thugs will be warned off - hopefully - most of the time.'"

As opposed to your position, eh? "Let us just hope that we melted down ALL the guns, because if some criminal shows up with one, WE IS TOAST."


"What a way to live."

You have a problem with guns? Fine. Call 911. Hope the police get there while your body is still warm, so maybe they can collect some evidence.

"What about the rest of us who wouldn't even consider being knowingly within a thousand yards of a loaded gun under any circumstances? Do we have to join your club too?"

I'll remind you that YOU are the one trying to force US to join YOUR club. I couldn't care less if you don't want to be near a gun.

I just hope for your sake you never find yourself in a situation where you need one.

Higene -- 2 of 2
"Why don't we just all arm ourselves to the teeth and get it over with?"

So your argument is so weak that you need to resort to the construction of the flimsiest of strawman?


"Why not dispense with the police forces and make it every man, woman and child for himself? Go back to the 'fastest draw' contests of the wild, wild west?"

Oh yes, there you go. Throw in some more straw, I think you missed a spot there.


"That's how you and your friends on this blog want to organize American society now and in the future?"

No, me and my friends want to have the right to defend ourselves in any reasonable way available. Because the police will NOT always get there in time. Because burglars will NOT always get the gun before the homeowner. Because, police or no police, EACH individual is ultimately responsible for his OWN defense.

"What a brain dead, idiotic, senseless vision of modern life."

Wait, are you talking about my position or yours? I can't think of many things more idiotic than waiting an hour for the police to arrive, when there's a burglar in the house NOW.

"Enjoy it while it lasts. It won't last much beyond the middle of the next administration. You heard it here first."

Yah, you wish.

Federalist #46, end of argle-bargle.
There's no question here as to intent. Even IF you want to argle about what the prefatory clause referred to was, all you have to do is read Federalist Paper #46, wherein Madison, the guy who actually wrote most of the Constitution, explains what it means and why.

"The Militia" is no less than EVERY ABLE BODIED MAN IN THE COUNTRY. By extension, that would be women as well, today.

QED, end of discussion.

I find it...
I find it typical that people coming from the anti-gun liberal side of the argument don't know of which they speak. While the most pro-gun among posters have the statistics, logic and knowledge to back up what we state.

Posters like Higene who keep posting nonsense about banning ammunition for instance. That's the same thing as having freedom of the press, while banning typewriters, keyboards and writing utensils.

The nonsense coming from the left is entertaining to read though. I usually find myself snickering and shaking my head in disbelief at the sheer ignorance throughout.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter


Higene
"Why don't we just all arm ourselves to the teeth and get it over with? Why not dispense with the police forces and make it every man, woman and child for himself? Go back to the 'fastest draw' contests of the wild, wild west? That's how you and your friends on this blog want to organise American society now and in the future?"

More typical hysterical nonsense. I'll bet you didn't even look at the links I provided. They give actual scientific data to support my position. What did you show up with?? Just hysterical nonsense.

But since you threw it out there about arming everyone...

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/crime_rate_plummets .htm

See, even your idiotic statements backfire. The deeper question you need to ask yourself is: "Is what I believe to be true, really true?"

You already know the answer, everyone does.

Wild West Comments
Higene's "...wild, wild west..." comments just go to show that the left has no clue what they're talking about.

The "wild" west years of 1870 to 1885 in the major railroad towns, averaged just three murders per year. There were only forty five (45) homicides in that time period in the major railroad head cities of Abilene, Dodge City, Caldwell, Ellsworth and Wichita.

16 of those 45 homicides were justified homicides from sworn law enforcement.

The highest murder rates were from Dodge City in 1876, where five (5), yes that's just five murders were committed.

In the year 1880, Dallas, Texas had no recorded murders, not even one. This just simply and clearly demonstrates that the anti-gunners hysterical arguments have no basis in fact whatsoever. Pathetic, simply pathetic.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

Marc
Higene is typical of the anti-gunners. There is no reasoning with someone that uses hysteria to govern their decisions.

The real issue is that people like that are so intellectually dishonest with not only everyone around them, but mostly with themselves.

You and I can provide all the scientific data, all the common sense, and all the reasoned arguments we want. They will never let go of that dishonesty.

What's funny is that most of those people consider themselves "enlightened", when in fact they are stuck in their own little dark ages with their supersticious hysteria.

Keep up the good work with the NRA...

Guns and serenity: one more example
I recently returned from a five week tour of Israel. I stayed in five major cities and visited numerous villages and sites of historical and Biblical importance.
Armed uniformed and non uniformed Israelis were ubiquitious. I saw teachers, men and women in both Orthodox and secular garb, and young group leaders on school field trips with an M16 .30 carbine slung over their sholders, and/or with holstered semi autos. I saw people openly carying in restraunts and other public places with zero reaction from the public. I can only assume that many other Israelis were carying conceiled. It became very obvious to me that ordinary citizens' "keeping and bearing" in Israel is common, and not feared or controversial. What I didn't experience in Israeli cities was fear of walking the streets, day or night. And on the evening newscasts I saw no reports of violent street crime in anyplace that I stayed. Are Jews just genetically less susceptible to crime- causing guns than other people, or ... do guns not cause crime? Do DC murder statistics and African genicidal episodes suggest a racial propensity for violent behavior, or does an unarmed (disarmed) populace invite trouble? Anyone want to disarm America and find out? YOUBETCHA! !

Reply to Higene #181
Fine. Live in fear of violent criminal street gangs. Do you also fear space debris crashing down on you? tsunami waves? A lot of other improbable ways to die?

Your answer to violent criminals who flout the existing laws is to what? Create new laws to criminalize behavior that is now legal and hope that criminals will adhere to them? Who is being naive?

A recent non-fatal shooting in the next county illustrates the real issue. The gunman was a felon who was not allowed to own a weapon. He shot the victim and went to a girlfriend's house to hide. He was arrested with a relatively low bail. The girlfriend who harbored the fugitive was not arrested. There is too much jail overcrowding. He'll probably be back on the streets again in a week. This is the real insanity.

The Solutions (Part 1 of 3)
First of all, murder has been around as long as the first human beings. Whether or not you believe that we're descended from some form of primate or if you believe Adam and Eve led humanity's first family, murder has been around since the beginning of time. Murder isn't going anywhere unfortunately.

Felons get about 80% of their firearms from a handful of sources that can be diminished without violating the spirit of the Second Amendment.

They get about 40% of the guns they use to commit crimes from their own friends and family. Another 40% they get from residential burglaries, drug trades, unlawful on-the-street sales, robberies and burglaries of gun dealers.

Part 2 How to diminish these sources.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

The Solutions (Part 2 of 3)
How to diminish the sources of guns actually used in violent crime.

* Impose a five year prison term in addition to a residential burglary or a burglary of a gun dealer per firearm for each stolen gun. Five years for each stolen gun would keep this source of guns down.

* Impose a $10,000 fine for ANYONE who KNOWINGLY provides a firearm to a felon, whether it be a friend, family member or narcotics dealer. A huge fine for knowingly providing a firearm to a felon would diminish this source considerably.

Part 3 Impose additional prison time for choosing to commit a crime with a gun.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

The Solutions (Part 3 of 3)
Additional prison time MUST BE IMPOSED for a violent criminal act if a firearm was chosen to commit the crime with. This will eventually affect the criminal mind.

Additional 5 years for possession of a firearm during the commission of a rape, robbery, aggravated assault or murder.

Additional 10 years for brandishing a firearm during one of these four crimes.

Additional 15 years for firing a gun during one of these four crimes.

Additional 20 years for injuring the victim with the gun during the commission of one of the four traditional violent crimes.

NO PAROLE WHATSOEVER FOR THE COMMISSION OF ANY OF THE ABOVE VIOLENT CRIMES WHEN A FIREARM WAS POSSESSED, BRANDISHED, FIRED OR USED TO INJURE.

THE CONVICT MUST SERVE THE FULL AND ENTIRE SENTENCE IF THEY COMMITTED THE RAPE, ROBBERY, AGGRAVATED ASSAULT OR MURDER WITH A FIREARM.

We MUST focus upon the actual sources that violent felons use for their illegal guns. Secondly we must specifically punish them for choosing to commit a crime with a gun.

Thirdly, parole must be denied in all cases of violent crime where a gun was used to commit it.

Lastly, the prison term MUST BE FULLY SERVED if a gun was used to commit the crime. Law abiding gun owners do not rape, rob or murder and laws like this would leave the honest gun owner out of the loop.

These things will GREATLY help diminish gun-related acts of violent crime.
Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter


What most haven't heard yet
Is what the real Constitutional experts have to say about this. Here they are:
"On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823, The Complete Jefferson, p. 322)
"The Constitution shall never be construed...to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." (Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87)
"The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals.... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of." (Albert Gallatin at the New York Historical Society, October 7, 1789)
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426)

It would seem that this "arguement" over what the Second Amendment means was, in fact, over before it ever even started. Perhaps those who consider themselves Constitutional experts (at least as far as the Second Amendment is concerned) can explain how these words of the Founding Fathers really mean that only the government gets to have guns. I can't wait to hear the explanations, but I won't be holding my breath. (And there is more but my space is limited. Try http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_ff.htm)

Brian, I agree
I have compiled a huge list of quotes from the Founding Fathers on this subject and I've been throwing them out to my readers for more than ten years on the Internet and fifteen years before I even had a computer.

I used to type letters to my local and state newspapers with quotes from the Founding Fathers way back before Windows 3.1 came out.

The Founding Fathers were very clear and concise on these issues. Here are a couple of favorites:

"The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and to individuals."
President James Monroe (November 16, 1818)

"On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invent against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
Thomas Jefferson letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823

"I hope, therefore, a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the Federal government as they are already guarded against their State governments, in most instances."
Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

I have dozens more, but my space is limited as well.

Dream On Marc
I agree with your posts about tougher sentences for gun crimes and assisting felons in their commission of such.

However, you forget that about 90% of the current violent inmates and their yet to be incarcerated relatives are potential Democrat voters, unfairly deprived of their freedom.

It's a far better tactic to enact ineffective laws that restrict the liberty of the law-abiding citizens. The criminal class is a useful tool to justify higher taxation and to further diminish natural liberties.

The liberal echo chamber again!!!
These twits live in an echo chamber where they only listen when THEY are talking or their like minded idiot elite friends!

Remember when Ronaldus Magnus got elected in 1980? Some prominent (rhymes with "runt") member of the liberal elite media spouted off, "I can't think of anyone who voted for him, HOW did he get elected?" Remember this was a landslide for Ronnie. If it doesn't happen or is not heard in THEIR circle jerk of idiocratic friends it never happened.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

alopekos teumesios
Okay then, yes you're probably correct. I don't know of a single violent felon who would vote Republican, Libertarian or Constitution Party anyway. Let's pass a constitutional amendment concerning that.

United States Constitution
Amendment XXVIII

Section One:
The right of citizens of the United States who are 18 years of age or over to vote, who have commited a violent felony while in possession of a firearm shall be henceforth denied.

Section Two:
The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Done, now we just have to get into the Constitution.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

Oh goody, Higene's back
Higene, you said:

"So, it turns out the perp did exactly what you all are saying the father and his sons should have done, which is to shoot first!"

I'm going to ask what you believe you're IQ is. This is the most ridiculous, inane and hysterical thing I've ever heard.

No law abiding gun owner that I've ever known would EVER shoot first unless their life was CLEARLY in jeopardy.

If you're saying that to be funny, it's not. It just makes you look uninformed and less intelligent.

You also said:

"...we can hope you'll disappear through attrition by killing each other accidentally..."

You're clearly uninformed. Accidental firearm discharges are at their all-time lows, while firearm ownership in the United States is at an all-time high.

Keep going, you're making my case that anti-gunners are good, decent and well-intentioned people, but they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter

News coverage nearly absent
A momentous affirmation of the individual right to self-defense with a firearm occurs and what happens?

Had the Supreme Court decision gone the other way, the drive-by media would still be harping about it. Larry King would still be conducting endless interviews with Handgun Control Inc. nutjobs.

Instead, we get CNN doing endless takes on O'bummmer and Hillarious doing the smooch in Unity, New Hampshire.

Oh well.





Higene
I'm sure you're a decent, honest and well-liked person in your circle of friends and family. If we got to know each other, I'm pretty sure we could be friends as well.

But I've got to say that I really get a good chuckle out of some of your postings. I've been teaching gun safety, self defense and basic marksmanship for more than twenty years.

You really need to take an informative and complete firearm safety course and you'll see how concerned we are about this issue. I've taught gun safety to more than 90,000 children. What have you done?

Your hysterical postings and contrived musings aren't accomplishing anything of worth. Learn the truth about this issue and then post your thoughts. Perhaps then we could have an informed and well-reasoned discussion.
Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Certified Firearm Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter


The problem with hoplophobic elites
isn't that they are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that ISN'T true.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Guns are dangerous
Yes, guns are dangerous. That's why with freedom comes lots of personal responsibility.

There are some pro-gun control people who seem to equate the right right to keep and bear arms with the right to shoot whomever you want. Just because I have a right to own a gun does not absolve me of accountability if I should shoot someone either accidentally or for no just cause (i.e., to stop a deadly threat).

There are many things that are dangerous and there are a good number of people who do stupid things in this country. Fortunately, the majority of us are responsible.

You know what else is dangerous besides guns? Cars and Swimming pools.

According to CDC statistics, 2005 the incidences of death included:
Homicide Firearm: 12,352
Unintentional MV Traffic: 43,667
Unintentional Poisoning: 23,618
Unintentional Drowning: 3,582

Should we ban all things dangerous or should we keep our freedom and pay the price for when we do something stupid?

WHAT TO DO BEFORE THE RESTRAINING ORDER
The first thing for men to understand and accept: GENDER BIAS IS A REALITY IN THIS SYSTEM

Despite the fact that our family laws are generally written in a gender-neutral way, they are often carried out by people in a system that has been steeped in gender-biased stereotypes and outright lies about men and women. Police, prosecutors, judges, social workers, psychologists, parenting evaluators, counselors, et al, have been indoctrinated with propaganda by certain women's and victim advocacy groups that men commit 95 per cent of all domestic violence, are more likely to abuse their children, and that they are little more than sperm donors who care not about their children but about how they can get out of paying child support. If you think that sounds harsh and unfair to these groups, I apologize, but it is my opinion based on 17 + years of family law practice and 7 + years of family law reform activism.

So, whenever you put your freedom, your access to your children and your property and assets in front of an authority in the system, you are vulnerable to being treated in a biased way. Not everyone is biased, but it is the norm for most players in the system.

That is why you are much better off staying out of the system, that is, resolving your disputes through negotiation, and not letting yourself be at the mercy of someone who knows nothing about you, and has a tremendous tendency to treat you as a member of a group, not as an individual.

As I often tell clients, if you have to fight for your rights in front of a judge, you've already lost.

http://www.realfamilylaw.com/what-to-do-before-the-restrain ing-order-comes.php

2nd Amendment
...is the great and powerful equalizer in a world where criminals have total access to weaponry of all kinds.

Bring it!

For those opposing the accountable citizen owning a weapon, please step to the front of the line to place yourself in harms way without defense, no one will stop you.

The second amendment
Gun zealots may celebrate the recent Supreme Court decision but that neither makes it correct nor honorable. Some value a misunderstod "right" more than the lives of fellow citizens and seemingly more than that of their own children. For shame. In fact, the U.S. is the only country on Earth with our level of gun violence. Today, in fact, the U.K. is decrying the level of increased knife violence, where victims occur one at a time. It is unheard of there, or anywhere but here, that children assasinate other children in schools or disgruntled employees or spouses go on a mass killing spree. Even Scalia, whose disrespect for precedent is profound and disturbing, acknowledged in this case that the second amendment, even in his unsupportably screwy interpretation DOES NOT PROHIBIT GUN CONTROL. Finally, Mr. Stossel's arguments are old, tired, and disingenuous. All crime experts agree that localized gun laws are of limited value when neighboring states allow unfettered access, in some cases, even for criminals and the insane to buy guns. Texas, which unsurprisingly has little gun control, has a high murder rate. What does that prove? The answer, as police organizations and other civilized countries will ttest, is strict and sensible control of guns and ammunition, including screening and licensing of those guns desired for self-defense, collecting, target practice, or other legitimate uses, and the complete and total ban on guns and ammunition, such as semi-automatics and armor-piercing bullets, whose only puropose is to kill fellow citizens. Opposition to these initiatives is neither constitutionally "Americ