Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, June 11, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Entitlement Mess
by John Stossel
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


Congress is spending us into a hole. We hear about the cost of earmarks and the Iraq war. But what about "entitlements"?

That's the government's ironic term for programs that transfer money from people who earned it to people who didn't.

Entitlement? How can you be entitled to someone else's money?

To finance "entitlement" programs, the government threatens force against the taxpayers who provide the money. Why are people who favor compulsion called humanitarians, while those who favor freedom are stigmatized as greedy?

But I digress. Today's big problem with entitlements is that their growth will soon eat everything in the federal budget.

Last month, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) analyzed the growth of government spending and deficits for Rep. Paul Ryan (R.-Wis.), ranking member of the Budget Committee. The report estimated that spending on Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, which in 2007 represented about 8 percent of GDP, would balloon to 14.5 percent in 2030 and 25.7 percent in 2082.

There is no way that can fly.

If you add in all other spending, including interest on the debt, federal spending under the CBO's scenario would eat up an astounding 75.4 percent of GDP in 2084.

If taxes don't keep pace, the CBO says the "additional spending will eventually cause future budget deficits to become unsustainable ..."

And if taxes were to keep pace? The CBO says, "[T]ax rates would have to more than double."

One alternative to raising taxes would be to cut other spending. But at current spending-growth rates for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, all other spending would have to be reduced to zero in 2045. How likely is that?

Rep. Ryan is understandably alarmed. In The Wall Street Journal May 21, he wrote about a bill he's proposing that would: give individuals tax credits with which to buy their own health insurance in a competitive national marketplace, let the states have flexibility in running Medicaid, give workers under 55 money to buy insurance rather than rely on Medicare when they retire, permit younger workers to invest up to a third of their Social Security taxes in private accounts, increase the retirement age and temper the growth in Social Security benefits .

I don't know if that would be enough. What we really need is a top-to-bottom freeing of the economy, including the health-care industry, and massive cuts in government both spending and taxes. This would leave us wealthy enough to take care of ourselves, with private charity assisting those who can't manage. But Ryan's heart is in the right place. At least he's trying to get the public and his colleagues to focus on what's important. He told me he hopes to play the role of "Paul Revere, sounding the alarm about the government's unsustainable fiscal path."

Sadly, his proposal has been largely ignored. The Wall Street Journal didn't even publish any letters about it.

At least Office of Management and Budget Director Jim Nussle said, "I am encouraged by Congressman Ryan's leadership in his efforts to address this serious problem that continues to swallow the budget and swamp our economy."

And the bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget agreed: "It shows tremendous courage and leadership on Congressman Ryan's part that he is willing to lay out a comprehensive and detailed plan ...."

Pleasantly surprising is the lefty home-state Milwaukee Journal Sentinel's reaction, praising Ryan for "putting a plan forward" while the presidential candidates are "skirting the issue."

But for the most part, Ryan's plan is being ignored.

That's too bad, because this budget problem is the big one. The longer we wait to address it -- the uglier it gets.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read John Stossel's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
Entitlement as a measure of civilization
If we look at societies with entitlements (social welfare) versus those that don't have, or have shoddy benefits, it is interesting to note that higher entitlements point toward more healthy, educated democracies.
I suspect even, that being a citizen of communist China would be a more healthy existance, than being a citizen of democratic India, Pakistan, Iraq or the entire African continent, because of the (admittadely inadequate) entitlements of that vast nation.
Mr Stossel sir, Zimbabwe has next to zero entitlements, where as Germany provides free education up to and including university courses; your utopia and Mr Mugabe's appear in sink.
Rob.

Public Delusion
How do you convince people who increasingly believes that it is the government's job to pay for the things they cannot afford that the government cannot afford these things either? How do you convince them that, unless we all learn to rely on ourselves, as previous generations did, the system they believe they can depend on will collapse? I wish I knew the answer to those questions.

Neo Cons love entitlements
Look at Isreal.
Libs tax the rich and spend.
NeoCons print and spend and insulate the rich from the middle and lower classes.

rvb8 -- What Correlation?
"If we look at societies with entitlements (social welfare) versus those that don't have, or have shoddy benefits, it is interesting to note that higher entitlements point toward more healthy, educated democracies."

Well, that's a very nice sentiment, but as it so happens, isn't true.

"Zimbabwe has next to zero entitlements,"

... and also has next to zero rule of law, and zero protection of private property.

Hey rvb8
did you just emerge from a bubble? Been living underground?

oh wait, I know, your the product of 'free' government education.

that makes sense.

rvb8
Try sync. See if that works for you.

What exactly are we 'entitled to?'
I have read the Constitution, and many of the papers of the Founding Fathers. I think that what we are 'entitled to' are life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. There are some other guarantees included in the Bill of Rights... we are entitled to freedom to speak our minds - especially about our government... and so forth.

I believe that the more our government ignores the fact that we are entitled to keep what we produce, that we are to be secure in our homes and property, the less freedom and less security and less peace we will have. No government that fails to respect the rights of its people will long survive.

As far as health care and other government giveaways, I have the right to find my own doctor, to pay my own bills, and to help anyone I want to help through my personal choice. Unfortunately the government now forces me to 'help' others through the tax code and 'entitlement programs.'

Forced generosity blesses neither he that gives, nor he that receives.

A consideration
It would be a help if the illegal aliens who partake of the entitlements that we citizens have paid a lifetime of working to pay for were forced to pay taxes. At least that way one hole in the dam would be plugged. NO ENTITLEMENTS TO ILLEGAL ALIENS. And, while we are at it, demand identification before voting so that only citizens vote.

Kat
I believe at an individual level that people are basically fair-minded, with some exceptions. What a lot of people, liberals mainly, don't understand is the method of how government intends to pay for the programs it creates.

A common notion I encounter is that when the government takes their money, that money ceases to be theirs and belongs to government, as though you pay for a service rendered.

Indeed, in reality most people don't pay their taxes; they're withheld. If people had to write the check to local, state, and federal government each time they received a paycheck from their employer, taxes would be much much lower than they are now, and there definitely would not be talk of socializing anything for fear of a truly angry mob burning down Washington. People don't know how much their government costs and they really don't understand what deficits really mean to them personally. If it isn't a direct impact, it doesn't matter to them.

In fact, most people do not understand basic economics, and the liberal socialists in government count on that when they employ class envy rhetoric against tax cuts and curtailments in spending. It is that lack of understanding and awareness is key to the Democrat victory in 2008.

rvb8
rvb8
Location: OH

Reply # 9
Date: Jun 11, 2008 - 12:46 AM EST Subject: Entitlement as a measure of civilization
If we look at societies with entitlements (social welfare) versus those that don't have, or have shoddy benefits, it is interesting to note that higher entitlements point toward more healthy, educated democracies.
I suspect even, that being a citizen of communist China would be a more healthy existance, than being a citizen of democratic India, Pakistan, Iraq or the entire African continent, because of the (admittadely inadequate) entitlements of that vast nation.
Mr Stossel sir, Zimbabwe has next to zero entitlements, where as Germany provides free education up to and including university courses; your utopia and Mr Mugabe's appear in sink.
Rob.

~~~

Cute, but you seem to be one of the very few that brag about their IQ ( 8 in your case), as part of their screen alias.

Rats
(and mice)



illegal aliens paying taxes
at 2:05 TheConstantGardener wrote: "It would be a help if the illegal aliens who partake of the entitlements ... were forced to pay taxes..."

FairTax!

To RVB8
It is good to know the socialist patrol was out early this am to try and cast a shadow of yet another lucid and common sense argument made by Mr. Stossel. If socialism works so well, how come Sarkozy in France has told his young people to start thinking about taking care of themselves before government funds become insolvent?

Personally, I like earning things on my own and not getting immoral freebies from my fellow man through the forceful arm of the federal government.

Great article...
Congress can start with themselves. They work for me. I don't like the exhorbitant salaries they make for doing 3.5 days of work a week and a month off for this and that. And then there is their pensions and their health insurance benefits. Talk about out of touch.
I'm planning on sending my congressman (Pitts PA) this article and asking him to get in touch with Mr. Ryan. Who knows...its a start.

rvb8
Take your philosophy out to its logical conclusion...that's what Mr. Stossel is doing here. Your citing China of all countries as a model of democracy aside (over there, you're entitled to things like drowning your female babies at birth and your government running you over with a tank), your philosophy of "the more entitlements the better" will ultimately end up bankrupting the nation and contribute to great losses in productivity. Ultimately, that would lead to a much less healthy democracy. Nationalized medicine results in more deaths than its free-market counterpart. Also, the higher level of education clearly doesn't help people like you who apparently fail to notice reality and still think that socialism could work.

Unca Alby also has an outstanding point in your analogy to Zimbabwe -- first establish rule of law and private property rights, and then we can examine the pros and cons of each country.

rvb8
Everyone in America can't be entitled to a free existence. I hope that your smart enough to understand that and the "8" in your name doesn't designate your age. You've misrepresented Stossel's point, but then that's what liberals do. Damn the facts as long as I'm entitled to my incoherent psychotic rants.

Exactly why we may leave US
Folks, I know we've sat here like boiled frogs BUT -- the time is coming when we are going to have to make a decision. This govt. is going to begin becoming totalitarian in its conduct very soon because it HAS to, in order to quash the civil unrest that will attend $5 a gallon gas, social security, and so many other spending holes. My wife and I are learning Spanish and looking toward some of the smaller Latin American countries where some folks believe in freedom and a REALLY the land of the brave.

Don't fool yourselves. Our politicians and are people are NOT brave or free any longer. At the very least, have a plan to combat runaway inflation.

Scary stuff, huh? Well you can start planning now. Don't believe what the proven liars have spewed. Our politicos only want to stay in power. It is a circus.

Begin considering gold and natural resource stocks, and better yet, how you will defend yourselves against govt. crimes and individual crimes (because the police will not have near the resources or the will (in inner cities) to protect you).

Sound survivalist? Not quite. I've made tons of money investing for the coming storm, over the last 4 years, and there is more to be had. We predicted the rise in gold and oil, and there will be more. Just know that confiscation is on its way and prepare and have the guts to go if necessary, to another -- free -- land.

Thanks, rvb8!
You've done a great job of showing the outlook of the brainless. Ah, yes, Zimbabwe, that shining example of a parliamentary democracy. The level of corruption there is exceeded only by our own Democratic party here.

Entitlement programs

A tax cut without proper spending cuts is the worse economic policy. I warned years ego this would create all the issues we are facing today (falling dollar, real-estate, values, credit crunch, inflation, real wage issue….)

We will have tax increases no matter who wins. The free lunch program is over. If we do not stop the bleeding the dollar we be like a peso.

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/mccain-aide-says- bush-knows-little-about-economy

The biggest entitlement programs cannot be fixed by stopping them. What some of you forget most people paid into them for years and the biggest part of the shortfall is Lawmakers on both side blew the money. Also the economy would stop if entitlement checks stopped going out after most paid for it for years via pay roll taxes and Medicare tax and now depend on it to live.

Hey John,
a serious question; since universal health care is one of the sterling entitlements promised by the dems, has the AMA come out with any comments at all either in support or not? Where do the docs stand on this?

Another serious query; since legal advice and representation has become almost an epidemic need in this country, and it is criminally expensive without any apparent oversight, why isn't there an outcry for universal legal care?

Cut Congressional Salary's To Save Money
Social Security is an "entitlement" that individuals pay into every paycheck with the understanding they were to get part of it back. Our sorry thieves, uh - I mean elected officials, saw a surplus so the moved the account to the general fund so the could blow the money elsewhere. Force the government to put the Social Security money back into an individual account and out of the general fund. And return the $5 trillion they took out of SS and used elsewhere. If they had let it alone it wouldn't be in the hole. And stop taking SS out of my checks.
If there are entitlements to be cut then start with welfare.
Cut all social services for people who don't work and never have.
Or anyone who is here illegally.
If Medicare and Medicaid are so bad why are people required by law to sign up for it when they reach 65. If an individual wants to pay for their own private policy then let them.
While we are at it stop junkets for politicians and their staff at our expense.
No more foreign aid.
Get us out of the big bleeder - the UN!!
Lots of ways to save money if government wanted to.
Hey - cut Congress salary's. There are mostly millionaires anyway, or will be when they leave office from the graft they take.

Misuse of analogy...
...is the hallmark of liberal "logic" so readers should not take the character rvb8 seriously. Their critical thinking skills stop at grade 7 or thereabout.

Being a combat wounded veteran (Vietnam), I'm "entitled" to free medical care from VA when the old injuries act up. I won't go near a VA hospital.

Indifferent and fireproof affirmative action federal employees with a guaranteed government paycheck leave much to be desired in regard to health care, and the assembly line process of treatment is something right out of Orwell's 1984. With them it's "don't ask questions, lay down and shut up".

I pay for all treatment out of my own pocket. On deck right now is another operation to remove more frag from my ankle so I'll pony-up the cash at a private hospital to have the procedure done. Sometimes I have to wait until the amounts are saved up or I just dip into my savings, but it's worth every dime in the long run.

Let people keep more of their own money and let them spend it as they see fit. I'm much better with my money than any government agency could ever hope to be.

Dover pro,
glad you made it back, and good on ya in all respects.

Stossel is correct
>What some of you forget is most people paid into them for years and the biggest part of the shortfall is Lawmakers on both side blew the money. Also the economy would stop if entitlement checks stopped going out after most paid for it for years via pay roll taxes and Medicare tax and now depend on it to live.>

Sorry if this sounds sexist but most women over 70 are collecting benefits for which they never paid. I see this phenomenon every time I visit my mom in Florida. Most of the women never worked any job and are collecting benefits from numberous programs for 20, 30 or 40 years. In addition, these people collect 10x what they could reasonably have expected from any investment. Social Security was intended for the poorest, not everyone so why are wealthy seniors eligible for any of this? I don't think it's fair that immigrant's parents who come here are eligible for these programs like Social Security because they are a certain age but never contributed a dime? And with 2 million immigrants arriving legally and illegally a year, that problem will only get worse. Let's turn off that spigot now.

No wonder there is such resentment from younger generations towards seniors. They're being saddled with enormous debt burdens that are immoral and greedy seniors infected with entitlement thinking don't care. It's our responsibility to care for our parents, not society's responsibility.

Health Care Staus Quo
Rep. Ryan's bill would:
1. Give individuals tax credits with which to buy their own health insurance in a competitive national marketplace.

Yes, let's keep the insurance companies in charge with their increasing deductibles, co-pays, co-insurance, increasing premiums, claim denials, and other roadblocks, all designed to enhance their profit.

2. Let the states have flexibility in running medicaid.

Yes, let's give 50 sets of state politicians even more access to hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money. Isn't one swamp of politicians (that in Washington DC) enough to deal with?

Yet another bill from a politician designed to maintain the status quo in health care. Why not? It is a greater than 2 trillion dollar business enterprise.

R. Garth Kirkwood MD
http://www.equalhealthcareforall.com
doctork@equalhealthcareforall.com

Sounds About Right
By 2030, or in 22 years, entitlements will be 14.5% of gross domestic product, as opposed to 8% today. Not taxes - but GDP. Federal income from all sources, (not spending), is some 20% of GDP currently. What the author could have pointed out is that in todays dollars, this additional 6.5% of GDP will add $1 trillion in new spending. Revenues this year (2009) are projected at $2.7 trillion or so, and the deficit on top of those revenues is some $500 B. But that's ok, keep taxes the same, don't add any new spending (you're laughing - right?), and the deficit will only be $1.5 trillion in another 20 years. Sounds about right.

Nothing is going to happen
First thing: the contraction of "you are" is "you're", not "your". Someone earlier said "Your the product of free government education". I guess a poor education is an equal opportunity afflictor.

To my main point, the fix for government spending is going to be (at some point) when the bubble bursts. Just like the tech bubble of 2000 or the housing bubble of 2007 and the oil bubble of 2008-2009, the entitlement bubble will burst and when it does, a lot of people will get hurt. Just like yanking the needle out of the arm of a heroin addict, there are going to be a lot of people suffering from withdrawl.

In fact, I am worried that I will be affected in ways that I cannot even imagine. I will be getting a retirement income from the Navy in 7 years. Is that an entitlement? You bet, but it was earned, not given. But, if I get so much social security, which (in my case) I have earned, it will decrement my military retirement. How about that?

Does this kind of rule apply for entitlement programs? Can you max out on Food Stamps and welfare payments to the point that you cannot apply for Section 8 housing? I don't think so.

Jeff Flake, Rep. Ryan, Sen. Coburn and a few others are wandering in the wilderness. They are vastly outnumbered.

Hey, you Obama change-freaks! If you _really_ want to cause a change in November, vote out your Congressperson or Senator. Elect anybody but the incumbent. THAT WILL MAKE THE BIGGEST CHANGE POSSIBLE. The president can't do anything without Congress, but the opposite is not true!

Bread and Circuses
Give them bread and circuses. If you rob Peter to pay Paul you can count on Paul's vote. John is right. The entitlement train has to stop or else there will be nothing else. When Ayn Rand wrote Atlas Shrugged this is exaclty what she was warning us about. As of European socialist countries the reason they could provide free healthcare and education is becasue the American taxpayer and military was defending them. If they had paid their fair share to NATO they would not have been able to provide all the other goodies.

doctork,
Having read your post, I gather that the healthcare status quo is unacceptable. From your point of view in the healthcare field, what do you consider the appropriate route to take in 'curing' the current state of healthcare?

(Please don't direct me to your website or email. I don't do that.)

Thanks,
Chopper John. I was and I'm still glad I served.

http://moneyedpoliticians.net
So wealth transfer is fine when we give taxpayer funds to special interests, but not when we give health care to those in need? Only elitists like Stossel would argue for the fat cats.

seeker of lies
"Libs tax the rich and spend.
NeoCons print and spend and insulate the rich from the middle and lower classes."

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

Taxes for high incomes have gone UP under Bush, not down.

Fact challenged huh?

Entitlements
when taken to their logical conclusion, would mean that governments would then tax us at 100% of our earnings and then provide us with everything.

Who would do a minutes worth of work at that rate.

The HAND V/S The HAND OUT !
I have watched these Liberal/Socialist on this Stossel "Entitlement " blogs and I am terribly saddened .
It only really proves that the Media (with those countless poor people stories ) SOCIALIST / LIBERAL/ Marxist ..... Politicians have convinced a large generally Lazy Group in America that they can not do for themselves .
Can and anyone Imagine this happening Pre President Johnson's 1964 Equal OPPORTUNITIES Act ? Hell No !
We would have been simply totally Embarrassed to hold out hands out without Toiling first .
Entitlements have TURNED OUT TO BE I.O.U's because you breath and are owned or deserve it ? !
Simply put America has revered John Kennedy's Great words ..... Ask not what my Country can do for me . But what I can do for my Country .
I as a very young Boy heard those great words and became a Capitalist .... Thank God .
Socialism is about ''Entitlements " which allows bad habits and unintended catastrophic consequences.
Called one Day ..... enough of my Taxes .. Feed .. Cloth and Shelter your own as I will my own self and family !
When I broke my Leg I used " Cruches for 6 weeks only because if I would have used them for a year it would have crippled me for life .
Human Beings and long welfare has the same prolonged meaning.

We had A Chance...
We actually had a chance to resolve most of these issues in 2000. We had a projected budget surplus in ongoing years that could have allowed us to actually put SS contributions into an SS fund. Both candidates promised to put SS funds into a "lock box", remember.

Unfortunately the Bush administration inadvisably cut taxes (requiring us to rob the SS fund), dramatically added to entitlement costs, engaged in ridiculous military adventurism, oversaw the collapse of the dollar, and significantly increased non defense spending.

Fiscal policy by ideology is a disaster, no matter who does it. It just so happens that the Bush administration has caused more damage than most.


Constitution
Many of our founding fathers spoke out against entitlements and any other federal government giveaways.

Our present entitlement system along with much of the tax confiscation by the fed is clearly not written into the Constitution. Most of the elitists in Congress and the rest of the government should be impeached for high-crimes. Stealing from the people.

Let's remember
that the vast majority of us had nothing to do with writing the rules of entitlement programs.
We only follow the rules written by others.

Congressional self interest will keep the entitlement programs running regardless of the consequences.

Facts that will spoil the party (Part 2)
The US was the first major power to abolish slavery and recognoze the rights of blacks and women to vote and own real estate.

Every contention made by the left about the need or benefit of a welfare state is a lie. It is nothing more than a shell game played by those who want to diametrically oppose the principles of the Constitution without appearing to be the power hungry traitors that they are. Today's snake oil salesman is rvb8. The shoe fits you rvb8, so wear it.

Guys like you make me sick to my stomach.





Here are a few more facts. Prior to 9/11 SS and entitlements comprised 66% of the budget because Clinton had cut Defense spending to 16%. The families of servicemen were on food stamps, and all this despite the fact that Clinton jammed the largest tax increase in history down our throats after promising during his campaign that he would cut taxes, balance the budget, and provide free health care for all.

We never got the health care Clinton promised and it was the Gingrich Republicans who balanced the budget by giving lying Willie Clinton his hatchet job on the military.

The biggest myth we have today is that the Iraq war is bankrupting the country. Even with the increases in Defense spending to pay for Iraq and and for better intelligence at home and abroad Defense still comprises only 20% of the budget. In all these "polls" we hear about that say we need to get out of Iraq, most of the respondents are harboring the mistaken impression that we spend over 50% of our budget on the military. In fact we spend only one in five tax dollars for Defense, and the vast majority of that Defense money (80%) was being budgeted by Bill Clinton for Defense before there ever was a 9/11, an invasion of Afghanistan, or an invasion of Iraq. You know, during the so-called "peace and prosperity" of the '90's.

Is rvb8
our not so favorite troll Wobbie? Look at the nonsense he writes and the signature Rob(ert) at the end. Just curious.

Also, would a number of problems be solved if the congress' salaries and benefits were eliminated? Just think, lots of these very wealthy career pols would soon be gone, then those who truly want to make a difference for the service of the country would be there.

Jack
Typical lib. The Bush tax cuts not only raised Federal revenues, they also increased the proportion that the wealthy pay. The top ten percent went from 64 to 66% of the total take. Is that not your goal? To punish those that work hard to make a better life for themselves? Perhaps if you libs/Dems would stop lying we could take you seriously but I suspect that that will not happen soon (it is red meat for the masses).

Chopper John re: doctork and the AMA
Actually, the ivory-tower academics who run the AMA, like "doctork," have been pushing socialized med--er--comprehensive, single-payor healthcare for years. This is the biggest reason I am not a member of the AMA and have not been for years. Neither the AMA nor doctork reflect the opinions of the rank-and-file physicians out here in the trenches who are just trying to serve our patients and provide for our families.

The status quo is unacceptable, no question. But the status quo has been brought on by the government, which by its own action took the free market out of the business of Medicine. Rep. Ryan's proposals would bring the market back into what we do. Socialized medicine, like all socialism, has failed everywhere and every time it has been tried. We do not need to try it in this country.

When it comes to medical care, there are three things which we all want: Access, affordability, and quality. The reality is, each of us must decide for him-or-herself which two are important, because one can only have two.

Facts that will spoil the party (Part 1)
Somehow my multi-part post got discombobulated when I tried to submit it and Part 1 never showed up. Here it is as best I can recall.

Currently SS and Great Society entitlements comprise 63% of the budget. These are not only Democrat signature programs that were enacted when the Democrats controlled the White House (FDR and LBJ) and both Houses of Congress, but these are programs that have PROVEN to be abject financial failures and humanitarian disasters.

When Kool-Aid drinkers like rvb8 go out on a philosophical limb with a fatuous theories that great civilizations must have programs that arbitrarily redistribute wealth from producers to non-producers they ignore two things. (1) Nations such as the USSR, Red China, N. Korea, Cubs, Libya, and certain other African nations who have imposed rvb8's system on their people have compiled a human death toll (hundreds of millions of their own people) that make Hitler's Holocaust (11 million dead) look like a border dispute in comparison. (2) Countries of Europe, particularly France and Germany, which the left is lying about by saying our "image" with these people has been tarnished by Bush, have elected CONSERVATIVES to the their Presidencies. Sarkozy of France loves the US and recently told his lazy-assed constituency that their going to have to get off their lazy butts and work more than 35 hours a week for 11 months a year because if they don't the gov't won't be able to support them any longer.

Spending
Cutting spending is great, but cutting taxes instead of using those taxes to work down and eliminate one of the major problems that this country will face in the coming years, the national debt and related interest payments, is unwise. Cutting taxes while reducing social programs that help the poor/needy is why this is called greedy.

Entitlement programs should be made available for only those people that are truly in need, however that can be defined.

I have the solution
Stop it!
Except: for the Elderly who don't have family support. Mentally challenged who dare to try and make it on their own.Disabled Americans who cannot work at all and have no other means.
And yes as a temporary aid to those who beyond any control of their own are in TOTAL despair over where they are going to sleep and eat until they are on the track back to stability.

The conditions and policing of these programs is too lax. But we are Americans and most of us find it hard to sleep at night knowing that we would willingly let another American go hungry and without when we have some to spare. More personal involment would be there if the government didn't step in and push our efforts aside.

Jack,rvb8, et al: Really?
We tax “INCOME” not “WEALTH” on a progressive scale: the top 50% of INCOME EARNERS pay 96% of al INCOME TAXES. The top 10% of all wage earners pay 70% of all taxes, etc. Drop the “tax cuts for the rich” canard: I am in the top 2% of all income earners, but I drive a Honda SUV. I am hardly wealthy. I am in the top 2% because I am demonstrably more intelligent & better educated than the majority of those people not in the top 2% & I resent your collectively pathetic, pedantic envy.

Additionally, kindly separate “INCOME” taxes from “Payroll” taxes (i.e., Social Security.) Now, in addition to having to do all the HEAVY LIFTING WRT financing the daily operations of the Federal government, I’m going to be expected to pay even more money into a PONZI scheme called Social Security W/o any guarantee that I will ever be able to collect even a small portion of what I’ve paid into the system. BHO’s solution? The “progressive” Democrat’s “solution” will be to buy more votes from the “parasite class”: forget the first $15-30K in earnings and then raise the taxable income limit from $97K to $200K IOT make up the difference. This would of course place a greater tax burden on the top 50% taxpayers- most of whom are of course evil white males. Please expect the Democrats to propose lifting the $90K ceiling on Social security taxes IOT buy even more votes from losers like you.

The Truth
Entitlements are a problem for many reasons. Here are a few...

1) There is nothing in our Constitution or Bill of Rights that allows the government to take our private property for redistribution in the form of the entitlements being debated here.

2) There is a reason we have all this prosperity that the entitlement crowd is clamoring over. It didn't just arbitrarily arrive with us, and it won't continue to grow no matter what we do. We have all this wealth because this country has allowed its people to be free to choose what they do with their private property, and free to lose it or increase it based on their own decisions.

3) The basic socialist lifecycle is that a society must first become industrially mature (prosperous), and then the wealth can be redistributed in a way that will achieve equilibrium. This has failed in every attempt, because productivity and prosperity decreases when economic freedom is reduced. Therefore, there is less wealth to distribute to a society. The result is shared misery. This is proven historical fact. Read about governments that resorted to created laws that punished for individuals not maintaining certain productivity levels. Like it or not, that is how human beings react to these policies of lost economic freedom.

At this present time I do believe economic insecurity directly caused by our growing entitlement society is at least as great a threat to our future as Islamic terrorism.

For Unca Alby, Conservative Artist
rvb8 is simply an alias handle for wobbie the wimpy wagpicker.

"Freedomnomics"
I have never heard a feminist acknowledge that most modern women are by nature afraid and most literally depend on a paternal government to protect them from everything, from the men in their lives (i.e., Violence Against Women Act) to the right to defy reason, logic and personal responsibility (e.g., Affirmative Action, No-Fault Divorce, Abortions on Demand, etc.). The relationship between feminism (i.e., female-chauvinism) and big government and the promotion of every leftwing cause should be obvious due to the weaker sex’s natural and apparent fear of everything & perpetual need for “security” in all facets of their respective lives. This is of course reflected in how they vote. Economist John Lott, author of the book "Freedomnomics", went back to the 1980s to see what happens when women get the right to vote. His findings? In every single case, when women were granted a franchise at age 18, the cost of government immediately raised as women, particularly single women, started voting for the candidates who would create more government entitlement programs designed to provide women with security at the expense of the mostly white male progressive income taxpayer base. Mr. Obama & Ms. Clinton are just the latest in a long line of politicians pandering to the de facto rulers of modern American Society: single & divorced women who expect responsibility-optional, consequence-free life styles subsidized by the majority-male peon taxpayer population. These are the “women in need” to whom Ms. Clinton previously referred & they will get BHO elected President after he continues to cater to said demographic group.

FACT: If single women were suddenly denied their right to vote, a Democrat would never again be elected to public office at the national level.

Wiseone's Facts
Wiseone Writes:

"The US was the first major power to abolish slavery and recognoze the rights of blacks and women to vote and own real estate"

This is factually false in every regard.

Slavery was abolished in Britain in practice and in law long before it was abolished in the US.

Norway, Denmark, the Soviet Union and Canada granted women suffrage in 1918.

Women owend thier own property as long ago as the time of the Mongols.






Shrinque, thanks for your reply, Doc.
As luck and aging would have it, my family and I have been all to often participants in medical care this past year. Yes, we have health insurance, and yes, it has been beneficial for sure. The care we have received from you and yours continues to be proof positive why this country remains in the forefront of unbelievably consistent medical professionalism. For that you have my undying (thus far) gratitude.

Based solely on my experiences, it seems that you have little recourse against the insurance companies and far too little support from the AMA. Sort of analagous to the teacher/NEA I believe.

I've never experienced socialized medicine, only heard and read opinions of those who have. You can rest assured however, that as far as I'm concerned, how you medical providers react to it is of utmost importance to those of us in the system. Please, please make it known nationwide.

CVN65
AS I said, fiscal policy by ideology is stupid. A commitment to an ideology, regardless of impact, has led us to this point.

Your claim that the Bush tax cuts increased revenue is debatable, to say the least. revenues went down in 2001-2003 and rebounded thereafter diue to an increase on corporate tax revenues. There is debate as to what caused those revenues to increase, but some combination of increased profits and EXPIRING tax breaks is the best guess.

Regardless, you have neatly forgotten the other four factors I listed: Bush dramatically added to entitlement costs, engaged in ridiculous military adventurism, oversaw the collapse of the dollar, and significantly increased non defense spending.

One problem with an ideological approach is that you tend to see everybody else as ideological. You indicate I have some ulterior class war motive. Nothing I have ever siad indicates that. I am for what works and against what does not work. You are for tax cuts whether they work or not.

Demosthenes
I am also part of that magical top 2% and I expect the upper limit of FICA contributions to be raised. Doesn't overly concern me. You want relief from the burden of payroll taxes, I want relief from teh burden of a bloated and unnecessary military.

But, none of those things are really the issue. The issue is how do we avoid collapse given the circumstances we are in? Ideological commitment to a policy regardless of its impact is just more of the same.

If you mention scaling back SS, liberals get crazed. If you mention tax increases, conservatives go nuts. Both will be necessary.



The best solution to economic

problems is to have an economy based on sound economic principles. For example, part of the problem with the inflating dollar is the interest rate. The lower the rate the less desirable the dollar.

Solution: raise interest rates. One consequence will be less borrowing. This will slow purported economic growth. However, how real (versus artificial) is economic growth based on debt?

Will rising interest rates slow economic growth to the point of recession or even depression? It could. However, if higher interest rates are combined with lower tax rates the negative economic effect of the higher interest rates will be offset by the possession of more and more valuable dollars in the hands of consumers. The overall effect will be a decrease in the growth of debt and an increase in consumption.

The above of course does not address growth in federal government debt. This growth must be contained by the will of our politicians. Ideally, government debt should increase at a rate smaller than economic growth. If we had the discipline to do that, eventually the debt would be insignificant to our economic prosperity.

So, Jack
you're saying that government bureaucrats/politicians/"liberals" know better than I how to use the money that *I* have earned through *my* own efforts?

You want to pay more in taxes, go for it. The Treasury will gladly accept your money.

You don't think we need a military? Move to Sweden. Then you don't have to worry about supporting a bloated and unnecessary military. You'll just be living in a 600 sq ft box and working your tail off to support everyone else's entitlements. That is, if you can find work that will pay enough to live on after you've been forced to make sure everyone else has his needs/wants met.

Jack
I addressed one point and one point only. That point was the typical lib claim that Bush cut taxes for the wealthy. He cut the rates, across the board, and that gave greater prosperity to that class of wage earners that know what to do with their saved money. You claim to know that I am "for tax cuts whether they work or not". How, exactly, do you presume to know this? Have I ever written this in a post on TH? The fact is that Bush and, before him, Ronald Reagan and, before him, JFK all cut the tax rates and saw a major increase in Federal collections. It appears that, contrary to liberal theology, individuals are much better at shepherding and growing their own money than the Feds are. As for your other points, yawn. You will get no argument from any conservative about Bush and the GOP spending like drunken sailors and increasing entitlements- they acted like Dems in that regard. BTW, when did the dollar collapse? I agree that the devaluation is terrible but it has not actually collapsed.

Jack
writes, "AS I said, fiscal policy by ideology is stupid. A commitment to an ideology, regardless of impact, has led us to this point."

What ideologies are you speaking of? One can support spending more or support spending less. How is supporting spending less, a fiscally conservative ideology responsible for leading us to this point. You are making the error of conflating fiscal conservatism with a political party. I agree both parties have led us to this point. But, they have done it with the exact same ideology not two different ones even though you may wish to think so.

Jack in PA
Regarding SS, you need to understand that it was not supposed to be considered a tax, but an investment in one's future. Raising the cap only makes it a much more naked wealth redistribution scheme. I very much believe that I will pay in for fifty years, then be told that I make too much to collect anything. I would like to opt out, why can't I? Why should I pay endlessly into a system from which I will likely never collect? Does that sound fair or democratic? As stated above, nobody is stopping you from voluntarily sending more income to the greedy politicians to waste. Just don't p1ss on my leg and tell me it's raining. The other Jack from PA.

Alive inHim
Doesn't your name suggest that honesty is important in some way?

I am saying that resolving the entitlement mess will require boths cuts in entitlements and tax increases. An ideological answer like yours doesn't address the problem.

I did not say that I did not want a military, I said I want releif from teh burden of a bloated military.

The American defense budget is larger than all other defense budgets in the world combined. It's absurd to think we need a defense budget of that size.



Hitchhiker
You appear to have misunderstood.

I said that cuts in entitlements will be necessary. But that is not because spending less is good no matter what. That is because spending less will work, to a degree. I also said increases in taxes will be necessary. But that is not because, as CVN suggests, I am trying to destroy the Wealthy. It is because increasing taxes will work, to a degree.

Like it or not, Bush is the conservative water carrier. His policies have taken a manageable situation and made it unmanagebale.




As for SS and Medicare,

they are both strategies designed in the 20th century. It is a valid question to ask if they are appropriate for a 21st century world.

The current SS will start to collect revenues that do not meet payments in 2017. At that time, the deficit will be made up from the SS reserves (these reserves were created by increasing the source of SS, the payroll tax, and decreasing benefits in 1985 or thereabout). These reserves currently exist as government bonds. These government bonds will be redeemed from general revenues, i.e. the income tax, (not from the payroll tax). By 2040, all of the reserves will be gone. At this point, all SS payments not covered by the current payroll tax will be covered by general revenues. SS is effectively bankrupt at this point.

Medicare is bankrupt this year. Medicare payments are exceeding payroll tax revenues. Excess medicare payments must be made from general revenues.

Both of these programs were not based on actuarial science. If they had been, they would not exist because actuarial science does not support their efficacy. Any politicians who are not addressing these two programs do not deserve anyone's vote.

The case against John McCain
Many here, me included, have been trying to make the case that McCain will steer the party so far left that the sheep will see no difference between the parties, dooming the country to socialism. We are well along this path already. I give you exhibit A, Jack.

Lost Posts
Weird, A few just disappeared.

Hitchiker,

your rhetoric is exactly what I am talking about. Rather than address the very serious issues here, you revert to calling someone a socialist. It's ideologically satisfying practical suicide.

How do you propose to get out of the entitlement mess? No tax increases? Just cuts in entitlement spending? It will never happen. Just liek someone who suggests all we need to do is tax people more. It will never be enough.

Jack
Bush is no conservative. He has spent like a liberal (yet they still hate him). I agree that the military is bloated; troops should be brought home from around the world. Any country that is afraid for us to leave would have to start compensating us for protection. But, your assertion that increasing taxes will help reveals your true intentions. Increasing taxes did not work for Clinton- he saw a decrease in tax income as a result of his luxury taxes. We are seeing the same issue with sin taxes- as less people smoke, the states are collecting less tax revenue and now are scrambling to find a way to make it up. Google the "Laffer Curve" and then get back to me.

Doctors can't handle..
the load of patients as it is. Double the number of medical schools and triple the enrollment. Allow for-profit med. schools. Insist on this in exchange for tort reform and redefining malpractice and other regulation (you can't leave this part out; you have to remove the regulation that drives costs as well). Don't listen to any BC about falling standards and poor care, either; there exist many more than 3x the number of qualified candidates who would make physicians every bit as dedicated and competent as the current crop. Then we could stop importing doctors. And costs would begin to fall faster than a peregrine on the stoop.

Paul Revere
"Give individuals tax credits with which to buy their own health insurance in a competitive national marketplace, let the states have flexibility in running Medicaid, give workers under 55 money to buy insurance rather than rely on Medicare when they retire, permit younger workers to invest up to a third of their Social Security taxes in private accounts."

These cures are as bad as the disease. Ryan should stick to being Paul Revere, who didn't ride through town yelling out a list of recommendations.

"What we really need is a top-to-bottom freeing of the economy, including the health-care industry, and massive cuts in government both spending and taxes. This would leave us wealthy enough to take care of ourselves, with private charity assisting those who can't manage."

This is the answer.

Buying votes does get expensive...
Don't forget the graft and corruption that sits behind all these entitlements. Only about 10% of the money goes to it's intented purpose the rest is stolen by crooked bureaucrats building empires by hiring their buddies and political supports friends...


Jack - a solution
How about this: Cut taxes and Cut entitlements.

There is a mess because entitlements were never supposed to be a function of the federal government. If the states want to take it on, so be it. The feds should stay out.

Shrinque
You stated that we want three things in health care, access, affordability, and quality. However, you also stated that we can only have two.

If we have access and affordability, then we can't have quality.

If we have access and quality, we won't have affordability.

If we have affordability and quality, we won't have access.

Now consider - the first issue is that for the majority of Americans, they must have affordability, regardless of access or quality because they don't have the money for anything that is not affordable. By definition you cannot have what you cannot pay for.

Therefore, the option on quality is available for perhaps one out of 5. It's not a choice for the other 4 out of 5. So what you're telling us is that 4 out of 5 cannot, in the long run, expect to have quality health care - because they can't afford it.

And, why is that. Recently, I had 1 and 1/2 hours of surgery on 1 finger, and that was billed out at $21,000 for the doctor and whoever, and $17,000 for the hospital. That is $38,000 - for a surgery to put a partially severed finger back. I was not given the option - because I was never told the price - of having them simply finish severing the finger - wrap it up, and send me home. A 10 minute procedure.

In the end, your industry, for whatever reasons has seen an 84% increase in the last 8 years in cost. The practical fact is that people cannot afford even minor surgery - let alone major surgery.

Bottom line. You're wrong. We do not have a choice. It will be accessibility and mediocre quality for 80% of the public - because no one can afford anything else.

real tax reform
We the people pay all taxes, and we are the sole ultimate source of all tax revenue. Regardless where government initially collects the money, all tax money ultimately comes from us, the people, even though business has to pay thousands or millions of dollars at one time, and get it back from us one dollar at a time.
Since we the people are the one and only source of all tax revenue:
There should be only one tax to collect all tax revenue.
It should be a single, simple, fair, direct, graduated, individual, full-income tax levied on living persons for each level of government: One Tax and Done.
The best thing that government can do to help the country, the people, and even government, is to repeal all of the many hundreds, or thousands of existing taxes, fees, and charges. These taxes are the federal deficit. These taxes are the high price of everything. These tax eliminations are spending cuts. Every tax that is eliminated is a tax that we the people no longer have to pay. These taxes are the difference between the price we pay for health care and everything else, and the price we would pay if these taxes were repealed. Eliminating these taxes will remove them from the price paid for everything by everyone, including government.
One Tax and Done will provide many benefits to all, even government:
One Tax and Done will end government-caused recessions because governments would cut off their only source of tax revenue.
One Tax and Done will stop reductions in tax revenue because people reduced their use of water, sewage, and other governmental services.
One Tax and Done will reduce the price paid for everything by one-third.

Dancing Bear
You wrote: Exactly why we may leave US...My wife and I are learning Spanish and looking toward some of the smaller Latin American countries where some folks believe in freedom and a REALLY the land of the brave...I've made tons of money investing for the coming storm, over the last 4 years, and there is more to be had...Just know that confiscation is on its way and prepare and have the guts to go if necessary, to another -- free -- land.

-----

A Latin American country would love to have rich Americans like you living there to support their economy. You think that the U.S. government is ready to confiscate your investments? Try moving your investment to a 3rd world Latin American bank and see if your statements balance each month. Then again, maybe you just might want to leave your investments here in the U.S.

You say we need the guts to go to another "free" land. Well, pardon me, but the last time I visited a Latin American country (3rd world Honduras), I found the people there are decidedly NOT free and they fear their corrupt government officials. That is why they are desperate to migrate here, legally or illegally. (continued)


Dancing Bear
I know it might be tempting to leave the U.S. and take up residence in a country like Honduras where you and your wife could certainly live like royalty. But you might want to avoid its cities where MS-13 gangs reign supreme.

We live in the greatest country in the world and we have so many freedoms that the rest of the world envies. Why would you want to give it all up? Instead, why not remain in the U.S. and make a difference? Rather than learning Spanish, why not take a course in government, and then run for office and actually change things?

Instead of taking up a comfortable life on the beaches in the tropics, I decided to try to help the poor in Honduras to establish micro-businesses where they can learn a trade and earn a modest income to support their families.

You sound like a smart fellow, earning lots of money in the last 4 years. Why not apply those same smarts to work on the problems we have here to help keep the U.S. the greatest country in the world?

Medicare Part D

The biggest entitlement ever next to the Grand Pyramid Scheme (social security).

Thanks GOP.

Yeah, and Germany has 13% unemployment
A short history of Soc. Sec.:
started as minimum retirement benefit only for those over 65 who had worked about 5 years, so many quarters. Then only 1 in 10 or 12 made it to 65 in 1936. Payments were tax free. Cartoons in 1937 mocked what would happen when there were smaller numbers of those paying than those receiving. Today's circumstances were not unsuspected even 70 yrs. ago.

SS was really in a *lcok box* to start. It was set aside from other revenues.

In 1968, Pres. Johnson 7 a Dem. Congress voted to add SS/FICA deductions into general revenues & give the *lock box* IOUs, now worth something like $39,000,000,000 (that's trillions) or 3 times the current GNP of $13 trillion for an entire year of US productivity.

In 1986, a Dem. Congress with Reagan's signature started taxing SS, for people who had other earned income. SS is still not taxed ONLY if it is the SOLE source of income for someone eligible to receive benefits.

Since 1936, SS benefits have expanded to cover disability, early payouts at 62, male and female survivors of spousal death and their children, and people who NEVER contributed, through minimal SSI benefits, if they are retirement age.

The whole set up is a Ponzi scam that if run by your next door neighbor would be illegal and he/she would be arrested for fraud.

Now, only 2-3 people support those who reach whstever age they are when they fit into a category of elibibility. Demographically, SS is not supportable and will fail long before it runs out of the entire fed. budget.

Bush, damned for so much, spent the entire first year of his re-election trying to convince the countty and Congress that SS should be addressed and some of those payments given back for private investment. NO ONE, ESP. THE PRESS, CARED.

My advice is save 10% of what you earn, and one way to start is to put aside $5 a day.


Mick is on the money, 1:23 post
__Stossel writes the Truth, " the government's ironic term for programs that transfer money from people who earned it to people who didn't.", and does people who did not earn it are of the bureaucracy, and civilian agencies, businesses, attached to the government social services entitlement scam. At this point is where the entitlement payments are made, and those of the entitlement are not those who deserve the benefit. Here's an example of flagrant, outright theft, and buying of votes. Now take for example a property owner who develops, builds, and maintains housing for those on the welfare roles. Monthly a guaranteed government check is received by this property owner from his tenants qualifying position in the welfare system, plus the tenants portion of the rent payment. Usually 2/3rds direct government subsidy, 1/3rd from the tenant's government check. Yearly tenants are required recertification by the housing authority, and the IRS, so the property owner maintains yearly tax deductions. Combine that with tax deductions allowed for required property maintainance, upkeep, and workforce the owner employs, plus health insurance, and you have a company operating without any overhead. A situation just ripe for the ability of securing large profits, on the backs of America, along with a tenant population living under the lax regulations of a bureaucracy that cannot exist without those tenants.

__America does not have a clue about this shadow economy created by the left, along with its mountain of paperwork included with the speculative legislation passed to hide its faults. The checks and balances guaranteed Americans have been removed from our hands to increase the amount of money in checks to left factions, along with their increasing balance.

ReCon-USMC
"We would have been simply totally Embarrassed to hold out hands out without Toiling first."

Your post was outstanding, but that sentence grabbed the soul of your message, I believe.

We now have millions of people who have no shame or personal sense of honor when it comes to demanding from others that which they did not earn. This is part of the social decay that President Johnson's "Great Society" has spawned. With most of them it's "I made 8 babies, show me the money!"

Today's immigrants, those from the third-world in particular, have no problem exploiting the labor of others in the daily maintenance of their families. But we also have our own homegrown perpetually grieveing adolescent-adults that demand being in the custodial care of government, and they have no problem going public with their demands. Ancestral suffering, doanchaknow.

Whining and self-destructive living pays in this country and pays big from cradle to grave if done right. Our politicians make sure the cash and goods will keep coming if a vote is promised and delivered.

Of course, there is a price to pay, in the long run, for living without honor. The price is a wasted life and, commonly, an early death from substance abuse, psychological decay, chronic family conflict and crime. But oh, "that government check", they reason; "I'm entitled to it".

Jack
Look at the link I posted earlier: the top 50% already pay ALL THE TAXES(97%). If thats who you call rich, then YES the rich deserve tax breaks because they PAY taxes. The lower 50% don't get a break because they already pay virtually no tax.

The military spending is 4% of GDP, hardly a historical high. There are plenty of other bills which are costing a lot more and are totally unnecessary: bills against oil drilling, Nuclear power plants, oil refineries, corporate taxes, Education bill, Farm subsidies,etc.

Cutting down on handouts...
..uh, excuse me, "entitlements".

Mandatory drug testing for all welfare recipients must be demanded and then at least 20 hours a week cleaning the roadsides of debris. Cleaning the government buildings should also be considered.

Some mundane labor, supervised, must be performed before every check is mailed. Poor performance on the job results in a missed check.

No government money for unwed mothers - period. That's what extended families are for.

Off and on throughout my career, I've worked with the so-called "poor" and in every case, aside from the mentally ill, their condition was due to their lifestyles.

Nearly all of them smoke. They always have a pack on them. What does a pack cost now, 5 bucks? Most, if not all, drink booze on a regular basis and/or get high.

Most have indiscriminate sex and bring children into the world without a clue or concern as to how to feed and clothe them. They don't really give such details a thought, and they've told me that much.

With our poor, a gold chain trumps groceries every time.

Half to three quarters of them have criminal records in many categories of offenses. One criminal offense and you're out of the government paycheck loop.

Anyone have any other ideas to save billions in welfare cash?




Renny is right....and wrong at the same
REnny's analysis of Social Security is accurate, but means nothing in the end. It is here to stay. It will not go away no matter how much you want it to.

The wrong part is this: "Bush, damned for so much, spent the entire first year of his re-election trying to convince the countty and Congress that SS should be addressed and some of those payments given back for private investment".

This not accurate. Bush was being an ideologue: he was interested in fixing SS only if the solution was private accounts. He stuck to his guns and nothing was done. As I have said repeatedly, being single solution ideologue will not fix anything.

Social Security Fix - Jack...
I'm glad that Bush was an "ideologue" and didn't back down from private accounts. Anything else to fix the system is meaningless - making people reliant on government IS the problem. If a business tried a pyramid scheme like Social Security the CEO would be in jail.

The pro from Dover...
Here, here!!! You nailed it!

Thank you for your great post at 3:55pm!

Did you libs catch his post?

Good Ideas and Bad.
Pro From Dover has a few good ideas and a few clunkers.

Drug testing and mandatory work aren't bad ideas, as long as you are willing to create a huge bureaucracy to oversee operations.

"No government money for unwed mothers - period." has its attractions, but you have to allow for people who have no extended family. I actually favored the Norplant idea: if you want benefits, you have to have to be on birth control.

"One criminal offense and you're out of the government paycheck loop."

This is a good idea.




Dancing Bear Says
I respect your posts re problems with living as an expat, however -- why does the United States continue to fall on measures of economic freedom? There most certainly are countries in S. America where freedom seems to be on the rise. Argentina, Brazil . . .

That said, I agree that there are concerns about confiscation everywhere. The western states -- Montana, etc. -- and boring places like Missouri -- may prove promising as places to relocate. It is certainly a challenging issue.

Keep up the good fight folks, there are lots of smart folks on this blog.

Dancing Bears

entitlements
how many trillions is enough to satisfy the politicians to buy elections. This idea that somehow those who are earners are somehow guilty of achieving their wealth through some unfair advantage while those who are non earners are somehow poor because they never had a fair chance continues to defy all understanding.

It seems that no matter how hard earners work to achieve their reward is higher taxes stolen by an unfair tax system.

Now b hussein thinks even higher taxes are needed not only to further enlarge the entitlement system but also to seens a trillion to the UN in some bizarre scheme to end world poverty. Since when did it become america's responsibility to take over for corrupt govts. who have bled their countries of wealth.

At what point will govt demand some form of pay back for all the monies they give to non earners.

If persons are too lazy or too stupid to take care of themselves exactly why is it the eaners job to feed and clothe them. If we are stuck with all these so called disavantaged then set up govt camps where they can survive on just enough to keep them alive and let them find the incentive to get off their lazy behinds and put forth some effort to get off the public dole. Why does society need provide anything more than mere subsistence living

Jack
Are you still around? The very serious issue here is an entitlement state cannot survive. Sorry if the term socialism offends you but, social security is socialism by definition. Notice the word social in there. Of course, that does not mean anything anymore. The trick is to name things the opposite of what the intent is or simply obfuscate the intent.

The sad part is that we are no longer arguing about philosophical theories or ideologies. The evidence has been mounting for hundreds of years and yet, so many refuse to see it. Collectivism, Socialism, is societal death as surely as being wiped out by an enemy. It is simply slower and less bloody initially.

The entitlement mess will be solved through tax increases, benefit cuts, and inflation, the only way it can be solved. The serious issue is that congress will wait until it is a full blown crisis and pandering and demagoguery will rule the day. The fix will further crush the economy resulting in an evil spiral down as they try to stop it with more taxes and redistribution causing it to fall further. You know, what is happening in Europe. Another cure is many many immigrants just like Europe. I would recommend we not let in as many Muslims as they have. My wife will refuse to wear a burkha and I might have to kill my daughter.

One Tax and Done - or FairTax?
Ron,

You keep pushing One Tax and Done. It has similar rationales and effects as the FairTax. I think the FairTax would be better at:
- taxing profits from illegal activites
- retaining our manufacturing base
- reducing government intrusiveness

Why do you think OTAD is better?

saving billions in welfare cash
at 3:55 The pro from dover wrote suggestions for reforming welfare, then asked "Anyone have any other ideas to save billions in welfare cash?"

I do. End all government welfare, subsidies, etc immediately.

The church is in a much better position to perform those functions. Pastors can

saving billions in welfare cash
At 3:55 The pro from dover asked "Anyone have any other ideas to save billions in welfare cash?"

Yes.

The government immediately stops all welfare.

The church is in a much better position to perform the charity that government has usurped. It can better determine who really needs help, what kind of help they need, and is there to hold them accountable.

Churches have incentive to use their money wisely, in the most effective method - which is to get people on their feet so they no longer need donations to live. Government's incentive is to get as many people dependent as possible.


And with only 1/3 the tax burden we have now, people will be in an excellent position to donate to those churches or other private organizations they think are doing a good job helping the needy.


Barring that, I'd be for people losing their right to vote for as long as they are receiving government assistance.



Social Security and similar programs are much messier to get out of because people have already paid into it, and the government is obligated. I like Ron Paul's approach there.

access, affordability, quality
Redlac and Shrinque were discussing health care earlier.

The solution is to get government out of the way. This requires several steps:

Government may not mandate what coverage customers must buy in their health insurance.

Private citizens get at least the same tax breaks for buying their own health care as businesses do.

Any group of people can form a group to purchase health care together if they like.

Health Care Insurance companies can reject any applicants - or high premiums - as they want.

Breaches of contracts signed would be litigatable. So if someone signed a deal to have health insurance that can't be cancelled for 20 years, that's the deal. But government can't mandate the insurance company offer that deal.


These steps would restore competition to the marketplace of both health insurance and health care. Competition would drive prices down and cause innovation, niche markets, etc.

It might even make health care affordable, accessible, and excellent!



Oh - and for what it's worth, I clicked the Submit button exactly one time for my above welfare cash post that apparently went through mitosis and mutation somewhere in the tubes. Don't know what happened there...

One would have to amend The Constitution
chris
Location: AL...

for your voting idea and that isnt going to happen...

yu would also have to amend it for your church welfare idea...and that isnt going to happen.

Church's have no business disbursing funds of the state.

I am all for ending welfare just as soon as we stop the corporate kind...like you know Mercs in Iraq and a human spaceflight program that does nothing of value.

Robert

to Ranger35 - church welfare
Maybe I wasn't clear.

The government would be entirely out of the welfare business.

Churches would those who they thought really need help from privately donated funds. The government would have no involvement, and no constitutional amendment - or statute for that matter - would be necessary. The church can and does do that now, but only in a limited capacity since the government has unconstitutionally usurped that function.

I agree the church has no business disbursing state funds.


I'm also big on ending corporate welfare. They would fall into the category of "those who don't really need help". If they can't make it with their business model, they should be allowed to go bankrupt and get out of the way so someone else can do a better job.


I also agree the no-vote-if-you're-on-welfare will never happen. But why would it require a U.S. Constitutional amendment? There is no right to vote there - only reasons why states cannot deny the vote (race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, failure to pay tax, age after 18). Note that my plan would be voluntary - if you want government money, you must first agree not to vote. Don't like it? don't take the money.

Chris
Your plans beat all of my ideas cold.
Well done!

With handouts personally distributed by churchs, abuse would die on the vine.

Just think of the repair to the social fabric as an added bonus. People would be so quick to act on their animal instincts, and self-control would become a cultural value.

Good thinking, Chris.

Chris, on to the heart of the matter.
__The social service programs, across the nation, are run, funded, and overseen by federal regulations with little, or no connection with community needs. What connections there are, are left in the hands of state powers in control, along with their political alias, political support. There is not any local, citizen, control of its populations needs, insurance it is met, along with assurances those, who are able bodied, and receiving assistance, become active members in the community. Unless those local citizens are in someway tied to the government bureaucracy, or the voice supporting candidates in office, the people are not connected. The checks, and balances guaranteed, and need, would be so much better is churches, and local community organizations became more involved. At one time in this nation these were the only services that dealt with local social issues, as they were the most knowledgable of the situation, and could act responsibly to solve the problems. Heck, it's the way our government was set up, has the peoples freedoms, and liberties, our democracy, is dependend on public rule. A REPUBLIC acting of, for, local, and state needs, united under federal jurisdiction. It's of our birth, and is of this nations growth, its wealth. Left theoretic, speculative, federal controls have taken that power from the people, and claim glory in being the force who can solve societies ills. It is very revealing that none of their programs has ever proved to be factual in solving societies needs. Instead we find the constant cry of increased need, along with increased taxation to fund an increase of their bureaucracy, and civilian elements attached to it.

trift entitelment
Thrift! has anyone ask the fat cats in Washington to be thrift with OUR TA X DOLLARS????

IN ORANGE COUNTY PROPERTY TAX IS KILLING THE LITTLE FOLKS (RETIREE'S, ON FIX INCOME, SOCIAL SECURITIES RECIPIENT'S) ALL THIS BECAUSE OF THE SCHOOL TAX, AND WHAT DOES THE POWERFUL LABOR UNIONS DO??? THEY ARE LOBBING TO KILL THE CAP THAT IS SUPPORTED BY GOV.PATERSON. ALTHOUGH THE STATE HAS INCREASED AID TO 70% THAT WOULD PAY FOR BENEFITS & SALARIES.

WHEN DO THE POWERS THAT BE UNDERSTAND THAT THE GOLDEN GOOSE IS COMPLETELY TAP OUT THERE IS NO MORE GOLDEN EGGS?? PEOPLE ARE REELING UNDER THE HIGH GAS , FOOD , HEATING OIL, AND MORTGAGE MESS ,THEY ARE LOSING HOME AND EVERY THING THAT THEY HAVE. WHEN HIS ENOUGH ENOUGH?????

HOW ABOUT THEM GIVING BACK TO US? WHY CANNOT THERE BE A CAP ON TAX BASE ON WHAT ONE EARN??? THAT IS WHAT IS USE TO COMPUTE WHETHER YOU ARE ABLE TO AFFORD A LOAN ETC ETC WHAT IS SO DIFFERENT???

AS OF NEXT YEAR MY FAMILY AND I WILL BE ON THE STREET AS WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PAY SCHOOL TAX THAT IS OVER $10,000. PER YEAR AND RISING . THEN ADD $4,300 FOR TOWN TAX, WITH ONLY ONE PERSON WORKING AND TWO DISABLE WITH NO CHILDREN!!!!
THAT IS FOR A SMALL 3 BEAD ROOM HOME!!!!!!

ENTITLEMENT FOR THE FAT CATS ON THE HILL
OUR REPRESENTATIVE OF ORANGE COUNTY "BRUNO" HAS DONE NOTHING TO HELP. WE WATCH AS OUR TAX CLIMB EVERY YEAR WITHOUT RELIEF FROM THE PEOPLE THAT WE ELECT TO TAKE CARE OF OUR BUSINESS ,ALL THEY DO IS TAKE GIFTS UNDER THE TABLE AND SELL US DOWN THE RIVER WHAT WILL WE DO?? WITH NO WHERE TO GO OR ANY ONE TO HELP. YOU WORK ALL YOUR LIFE TO OBTAIN THE AMERICAN DREAM AND THEN YOU ARE TAX TO DEATH !!! WHERE DO WE GO????????

WE BUDGET ACCORDING TO WHAT WE EARN ONLY TO HAVE GOVERNMENT TAKE AND TAKE WITH NO THOUGHT ABOUT US AS PEOPLE, NO ONE RECEIVE A PAY RAISE EACH TIME PRICES AND SERVICE RISES SO HOW DO WE COPE???should not school budget as we the people do?? one is not allowed to spend more than they earn so if the people cannot afford more tax should not the fat cats in Washington give back some of our money?? should not there be an exemption to seniors disable and people that earn minimum wages (and without children)
IF YOU DO NOT HAVE YOU JUST DO NOT HAVE!!!!!

ENTITLEMENT???????
MY CHILDREN HAVE SERVE THIS COUNTRY!!! MY GRANDDAUGHTER SPEAK FIVE LANGUAGES SHE HAD



TO OBTAIN A LOAN FOR COLLEGE MORE THAN $21,000 .SHE WILL BE SPENDING THE REST OF HER LIFE



PAYING THIS OFF,(SHE IS NOT ABLE TO WORK AS HER CAR DIED THERE IS NO PUBLIC



TRANSPORTATION) SHE IS A CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY ,



SHE WAS NOT ABLE TO RECEIVE HELP FROM MY UNCLE SAM YET ILLEGAL ALIENS RECEIVE SCHOLARSHIP



TO ANY COLLEGE OF THEIR CHOICE FUNDED WITH MY TAX DOLLAR WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS



PICTURE???



WHY CANNOT AMERICANS TAKE CARE OF AMERICANS FIRST???BY NEXT YEAR THIS TIME A FAMILY OF



THREE(ME) WILL BE ON THE STREET BECAUSE WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PAY PROPERTY TAX (OVER



$14,000. PER YEAR FOR A SMALL THREE BED ROOM HOUSE IN ORANGE COUNTY. HOW IS THAT FAIR????



SOME PEOPLE ARE ENTITLE JUST NOT THE LITTLE FOLK'S THIS IS NOT AMERICA THIS ONCE GREAT EAGLE



IS BROKEN ,ROTTEN TO THE CORE !!!!!!
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.