Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, April 30, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Conceit of the Regulators
by John Stossel
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Unless the government watches closely, the airlines will kill you.

That seems to be what many reporters and politicians believe.

"The result of inspection failures and enforcement failure [by the Federal Aviation Administration] has meant that aircraft have flown unsafe, un-airworthy and at risk of lives," says Rep. James Oberstar, chairman of the House Transportation Committee.

"The FAA has clearly displayed a dangerous and cavalier lack of regard for tough safety enforcement," says Sen. Hillary Clinton.

And Lou Dobbs of CNN wondered "whether airlines are putting profit ahead of passenger safety."

Let me get this straight. The only reason airlines care about safety is because of the FAA? So without government, multibillion-dollar companies would jeopardize millions of passengers by unsafely flying $50-million airplanes?

The media and politicians suggest that airlines would cut corners to make money, but how would that work exactly? Crashing airliners is a route to bankruptcy, not profits.

But air-travel safety has joined mortgage defaults and global warming as "crises" of the month.

Populists in politics and the media get attention by scaring people into thinking the skies are dangerous. The politicians want more power and attention; the clueless media are genuinely scared.

The latest "crisis" was launched when the FAA fined Southwest Airlines, which has an excellent safety record, $10.2 million for missing inspection deadlines. When Rep. Oberstar criticized the FAA for being too close to the airlines, the agency sprung into overreaction. "An industry-wide 'audit' commenced, and FAA inspectors set about finding something -- anything -- to show Mr. Oberstar and other Congressional overseers that the agency was up to the job of enforcing federal maintenance requirements to the letter," said The Wall Street Journal (http://tinyurl.com/6yfm4x).

One result was the cancellation of 3,300 American Airlines flights and the stranding of 250,000 passengers over several days while 300 MD-80s were grounded so their wiring could be inspected.

American Airlines then did something rare and even heroic. It criticized the agency that regulates it for suddenly changing inspection procedures in ways that have little to do with safety. "We don't know what the rules are," said an American technical crew chief for avionics. Some rules contradict each other, the airline said.

The FAA disputes American's claims, but The New York Times reports that "John Goglia, a maintenance expert and former member of the National Transportation Safety Board, said that the rules had, in fact, changed. ... The differences in American's work, he said, were so small that 'those airplanes could have flown for the rest of their careers and those wires would not have been a problem.'"

What about alarmist claims that the FAA has been lax in enforcing its own procedures? If the claims are true, then where are the bodies? The best evidence that FAA enforcement is unnecessary is to assume it's been lax -- and then to note that airline travel, though busier than ever, has never been safer.

We need to rethink the premise that government inspections keep us safe.

Clifford Winston and Robert W. Crandall of the Brookings Institution write: "[T]he fundamental problem with most regulation is that the regulatory agency does not have sufficient information, flexibility and immunity from political pressure to regulate firms' behavior effectively. Fortunately, the market, and in some cases the liability system, provide sufficient incentives for firms to behave in a socially beneficial manner."

To see who really regulates air safety, do a thought experiment suggested by George Mason University economist Donald Boudreaux, who blogs at Cafe Hayek:

"Suppose that all government regulation of airlines were abolished today. Does ... Congressman [Oberstar] suppose that airline executives would tomorrow fire all inspectors and maintenance crews, indifferent to the prospect of losing multimillion-dollar assets in fiery crashes? Does he not see that airlines with poor safety records would have difficulty attracting customers? Is he unaware that airlines' insurers have ample incentives to work closely with airlines at keeping air-travel safety at optimal levels? In short, is Mr. Oberstar really so dimwitted to think that airlines will be safe only if they are regulated by government?"

Yes, I think he is.

And sadly, most of his colleagues, and mine, agree with him.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read John Stossel's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
Sad indeed
That evil airline CEO may not be your neighbor but, he is someone's neighbor. That evil oil company CEO probably goes to church with a bunch of regular folks.

If the charade of the republicans and/or conservatives being branded as corporate lovers and the corps being the epitome of all evil were ever removed, then the democratic party would have nothing to run against. There must be war between the common man and the evil corporations that most of the common men work for in order to have two sides. Fortunately, we have our gallant democratic warriors willing to stand up to the man for us in Washington and the republicans are standing up to the man in Washington trying to run our lives and the reality is the man is us and we continue to vote for clowns that keep the dog and pony show running. "The Man" is getting taken to the cleaners by the two warriors fighting for his alleged benefit.

Pushing to take more and more from citizens for the common good to be spent by political factions and interest groups is a recipe for more and more conflict just like pushing diversity and stressing differences is a recipe for more and more conflict between different groups rather then bringing cohesiveness and oneness as brothers and sisters in Christ. The do gooders of the liberal persuasion are thereby doing evil,imho.

"Don't turn around, uh oh..."
"The kommissar's in town, uh oh!"

The reason politicians and government bureaucrats (kommissars) act as though they can and should protect us by passing all kinds of laws and regulations is because we as citizens (the majority of us, anyway) think they should and ask them to. If people would stop going to the government as the first resort whenever anything went wrong in our lives, and started to be self-reliant and take responsibility for where we our in life, the government wouldn't have as much power over us to control every aspect of our lives.

So the next time your neighbor makes you angry because he's not watering his lawn or the next time you lose money in an investment, etc. try to work it out on your own. Take charge of your own life and maybe go and politely talk with your neighbor about his lawn or maybe just learn to shut the hell up because it's not your business anyway. And in the case of a bad investment, guess what? There's no such thing as the right not to fail. Obviously, if there was fraud involved, then the law should step in, but if it's just because the guy you're investing with failed at the business, get over it and learn from your mistakes. Everytime you go whine to the government, you give them more power as they take away more of our freedoms and liberties.

brainoncapitalist
"If people would stop going to the government as the first resort whenever anything went wrong in our lives"

And corporations? Didn't Wall Street just get a transfer of money to the tune of billions of dollars from the taxpayer?

Didn't airline companies get a $17 billion handout after 9-11?

What about ethanol and farm subsidies?

Mr. Stossel
It beats me how John manages to maintain a position in the MSM. His libertarian views are the antithesis of his fellows and shows them to be total fools. I don't think he has has had much influence over them, however.

He must have a stash of negatives somewhere. :-)

Awesome John!
Thanks for another great one.

Jack screws and other such annoyances.
This article is a little too flippant and light on the detail of fact. I point to flight 261 of Alaskan Airlines and the caper of the jack screw maintanence extension.

They (Alaskan Airlines)too had an outstanding safety record. They had a great reputation for customer satisfaction. However there were efforts to extend inspections and save money on specilized tools, another words become more efficient and cost effective. Nothing wrong with that except for the failure to catch a simple wear problem that cost one md80 and all who flew on that aircraft.

Do I think Alaskan and S.W. Airlines evil for trying to run efficient profitable bussinesses? No.
I do however see the need for the FAA and those pesky regulators.

Kimberly misses the point
... again ...

zapdoodat -- good points but --
Those sorts of problems have been addressed under different Stossel columns. Check the archives.

However good those points may be, they are separate issues from the topic of having too much regulation.

How refreshing it would be..
if every incumbent would be voted out of office this November? I know that YOUR congress critter is a good guy, and you'd be sad to see 'em go, BUT, it would send a very poignant message. At the very least, that Moron poser rep. Oberstar should go. Everyone makes mistakes, but these arrogant clowns don't learn from their own mistakes (it has to do with never having to suffer any consequences)

doug
"I point to flight 261 of Alaskan Airlines and the caper of the jack screw maintenance extension."

You can bring up anecdotes all day without detracting from the point.

Certainly there are going to be examples of airlines going too far and causing accidents. Nobody's perfect.

The problem is there are *also* examples of regulations that have gone entirely haywire, and don't really make us any safer. Such as this recent bug-a-boo at American Airlines. All those people were grounded and inconvenienced, for what? To make the regulatory agency "look good" for some moron in congress?

And this can indirectly cost lives. As more people become inconvenienced, more of them choose to take alternate transportation that's *proven* to be *less* safe.

How many people have to die driving their automobile to balance against making airline safety 0.5% safer, but as it turns out, not really? Just push people into their cars for nothing.

Unca Alby
The difference between an automobile crash and a plane crash is where the responsiblility lies with the maintenance of the vehicle involved. Certainly there should be different standards for privately owned personal use vehicles and ones used for public service.

Stossel alluded to the elimination of regulatory agencies, and while I am no advocate of gov. micromanagement I take issue with the flippant tone of his article. It was precisely becouse of extended safety inspections and maintanence coupled with alterations to manufacturers specifications of test tools, and maintenance man hours that led to the destruction of flight 261. And futhermore if I could point to anecdotal evidence all day long wouldnt that in and of itself point to a problem?

Naw I think Stossel could have made his point much more convincingly and maybe helped persuade others that dont agree with he and me if he would have not used such extreme arguments as to suggest it wise to remove all government regulation from the airline industry. I mean realy if Im not on board(and I agree there is too much regs.) how far do you think he'll get in convincing others not quite on our side.


Ya know alby I find this statement
rather cold hearted.

"Certainly there are going to be examples of airlines going too far and causing accidents. Nobody's perfect."

Nobodys perfect works for denting the car, brakeing a window or forgetting to bring the trash out on tuesday, not the negligent destruction of human life, but thats just me.

I worked with government
regulators for 30 years in my job and I can personally tell you that when the press and congress start a witch hunt the results NEVER have anything to do with safety.

In fact, the majority of the regulations written after the initial setup of the program have little to do with actual safety and a lot to do with maintaining the bureaucracy and "looking good".

Justice is Being Served
Because we are stupid we deserve what is happening to us. 'Yes, thank you, actually those shackles could be a little tighter'.

Doug, you're facts aren't...
The reason the Alaska Airlines flight crashed was not as you have stated but because the FAA had approved a lubricant made by Mobil to be considered as an alternative to the lubricant McDonnel/Douglas had specified to be used. The two greases were not equal as Mobil's did not have the adherent property necessary to stay on the jackscrew, and the result was catastrophic.

Does it seem even remotely ironic that it was under the FAA's regulation this inspection
"crisis" occurred and, as a result, the libs are crying for regulation and government control?

G. Flowers

In a nutshell
Liberals hate corporations (unless they own one) and dont trust them. On the other hand they want government regulation to force their idea's on the rest of us! Or is it just so they have government jobs?

The Constitution...
...does not allow the federal government to regulate airlines. That should be the end of the discussion.

hagar
It's not that corporations are hated, only privately owned ones. Government monopolies, on the other hand, are for the good because of the tireless efforts of the selfless government employees... (sorry, tongue got stuck in my cheek there)

Of course, this isn't an issue in a true communist or socialist society because big business isn't allowed. Rockefeller conservatism would go the opposite way. It should also be noted that in addition to all public-action campaigns being a War on whatever they're against and those who disagree with them aren't wrong but evil, fascists also liked to have governmental oversight or partnerships with the largest companies. I wonder how long before there's a cabinet level post "Minister of Public Safety" or just "Minister of Safety" proposed by the Dems?

Overlooked
Is the reported fact that the offending wires were known to exist for 18 months prior to the FAA getting stern. In other words the FAA was lax before they were stern. If you know you have a regulatory obligation and skip it for 18 months then cry foul when the regulatory agency finally says time up you never intended to comply in the first place.
The proof that the airlines are to blame lies in the fact that after 18 whole months once the FAA cracked down the entire affected airline fleet was inspected, corrected and back in the air within days.
That is was EVER an issue is purely the fault of the airlines.
How many months would your parents have given you to comply with an order? I'd say the FAA was lenient, reasonable and fair.

Insighting Truth
Article I, Sec. 8, clause 3 and 7.

The FAA, bureaucrats, and regulations -
The FAA is just like any other government agency in charge of regulations for a particular industry or public function. They start out due to some perceived need, usually caused by some event that gets blown out of all proportion by a sensationalist press. Congress gets involved and first holds hearings that serve only to illuminate themselves and ideas that they have already decided behind closed doors. They then draft a bill in committee in which the Commiecrats craft it to the maximum extent possible to give all power and control to the federal government. The Republicrats will fight to some extent to limit the government control just for the sake of form. The end result is a bill that gives the government control. The bill is passed in both houses with no meaningful debate, only a few politicians who stand up and mouth the same partisan hack platitudes over and over. Once passed the bill then goes to the bureaucrats and that is where it really gets out of hand.

The bureaucrats have the privilege of writing the actual regulation that comes from the bill. This is where some nameless slug can decide that the clean water act gives them the authority to define something like salt as a pollutant and to establish an allowable level in the water. There is really nothing anyone can do if they decide that the maximum allowable salt content in the discharge water from some entity is going to be 10E-33 mg/ml. Never mind that this level is virtually undetectable, if that is what it is going to be that is it.

cont...

pt 2
Once the bureaucrats are done we now have the “regulation”. At this stage it may or may not address what the original problem was, but it usually has some relationship to the problem. This is needed to keep the politicians from looking like the utter fools that they usually are.

Once the regulation is in place and more bureaucrats are hired to fill the new positions guaranteed by the regulation things take off. Departments are formed within the new agency. Each department must have a department head and his prestige is determined not by salary but by budget, perks, and the number of minions that he or she has reporting. This starts the endless quest for positions and budget.

This starts the endless process of revising the original regulation. After all, if more regulation can be written to make us “safer” then more people can be hired to assure that the regulations are being followed. Soon the number of people and the complexity of the regulation reaches the point that congress says “this problem has got so bad we need to make it a cabinet level position”. At that point the bureaucrats have achieved nirvana. What you finally wind up with is a complex set of rules that have no bearing on the original problem and do not enhance safety at all. They do do one thing real well and that is to increase the cost of doing business.

And this illustrates how the federal government grows out of control despite the rhetoric to the contrary. Once established these departments and agencies NEVER go away. We still have an agency to assure the stockpiles of “strategic” Helium for dirigible balloons from before WWII.

Government is a Fat-Fingered Lummox
John Stossel once again brilliantly illustrates how the fat-fingered lummox called government has messed up such a delicate operation as running an airline.

Government should focus on simple outcomes with few and minor tradeoffs. Examples include overthrowing aggressive tyrants and putting men on the moon. Airline safety inspections have tradeoffs, as any stranded passenger can tell you, so government should butt out.

Good work John,
I'd like to also add . . .

One of the huge problems with Government regulations is that they become myopic. For example, hundreds of planes were grounded, and hundreds of inspectors dedicated thousands of hours to the inspection of a wiring harness that had NEVER failed. (but could)

Can one confidently say that during that period every inspector was as capable of catching a random problem? I flew during that period, 3 resceduled flights and a 2 am call telling me I was again cancelled, yet my biggest concern wasn't wiring - it was that a fusalage crack or fuel leak would be overlooked because of the frenzy to complete wiring inspections.

OSHA operates much the same way. Who cares if my business has operated accident free (fingers crossed) for over 15 years. Just make sure the MSDS sheets (for chalk) are on site.

In other words, government inspections provide little other than jobs for the otherwise unqualified.

para dimz:
I expected someone to point to the commerce clause.

As used by the framers the term "Regulate" meant to make regular, or equalize, it did not mean to micro-manage, inspect, or otherwise interfere with trade.

Sorry, the commerce clause does not authorize the FAA, the FCC, the TSB, or any other of the so called federal regulatory agencies. Unless you hold the same tortured view of the Constitution as liberal judges.

As to Clause 7, what does the post office and post roads have to do with airline regulation?

John's Regulation-less
As usual JS overstates his case about FAA inspection regulations although he leaves out of the story the amount of taxpayer money supporting the airlines.
If John were to say the commercial airlines are on their own as to both aircraft inspections and government funding,maybe I'd hink about it.

It's not just the direct taxpayer transfers, it's the soft money,too. Where's the discussion of USAirways and Delta an United dumping their pension liability on the PBGC (a quasi-government agency) as well as local txpayer funds for airport improvements.
Per Washington Watch, the 2007 airlines bill costs each family in the US $484.
http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/110_HR_2881.html

Yeah,John,I'll b inclined t let the airlines do their own inspections wen they agree to do everything with their own money.


InsightingTruth
Yes, interstate commerce gives the feds the right to do anything.

When they put you away in a rubber room somewhere remember that interstate commerce gives them that authority.

Sorry Vic...
...I'm missing your point. Is that sarcasm?

Fascism
Fascism is not just an epithet. It is a system of government which allows the illusion of private ownership of businesses and other property so long as all policies and procedures are set by government. Sound familiar? http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

InsightingTruth
Yes, because congress cites interstate commerce for every bill they pass whether it has anything to do with commerce or not.

In this case they are regulating the means of travel, NOT commerce. This was not the intent of that part of the Constitution. Also what they are regulating is safety which has nothing to do with commerce either.

What that part of the Constitution gives them the authority to do is to prevent the States from enacting laws that ban travel from one State to another or enacting tariffs between the States. That is all.

The reason
why the FAA went after American Airlines was not to snap to attention and do what Congressman Oberstar wanted; it was to make a point to Oberstar about what happens when you grandstand by accusing a federal agency of negligence in a large public forum. The FAA threw the flying public and AA under a bus just to make Oberstar look like a moron and to let him know that they can bring the entire airline industry to a halt at any time for any petty reason that they choose, and blame it on him or anyone else who tries to interfere with their agency.

The real question is why American Airlines was selected for a billion dollar loss. Was it random, was it just convenient to use them, were they hoping to put pressure on AA for some other issue where they were being uncooperative, was a failure to bribe effectively an issue, or was the FAA abusing its power because American Airlines was not kissing enough FAA derriere? Industry insiders probably already know the answer to that question, but most of the public and the media will never think of the question.

Airline Safety
The inpsections of course arre necessary but cover only items of wear and tear. If a serious item is discovered an AD (Air Worthiness Direcetive) issued requiring inspection and or test of the component, or whatever. Even in the interest of safety, the FAA must never be at the wrong end of a law suit but must always be off the hook. The American Airlines inspection of the alledged wiring is an example. So what if 22,000 travelers were inconvenienced. Just think of the inconvenience if just one plane had an inflight problem and crash landed resulting in deaths to a few hundred people. Deaths are more permanent than a few days inconvenience. Then the FAA could blame pilot or crew error during the emergency, especially if the crew died. Then the FAA would be off the hook. So if 22,000 people were in a tight spot for a few days,tough!

InsightingTruth
Don’t bring that up it’s not like any one in congress has ever read the constitution. Then again neither has 99.9% of the U.S. Population.

If people actually read and understood thing they might get pissed off enough to fix this country.

Hopefully you own a gun cause we are all screwed…



Vic:
Your 9:20 post is exactly right. It seems we are of one mind on this issue.

The FAA is not authorized by the U.S. Constitution. It is an illegal entity. Any orders issued by such an entity are null and void, and have no force of law. Such orders may be legally ignored. Now if only we could get enough American to understand these facts, we could start taking our country back.

What if...
What if a president appointed John Stossel to reorganize the Cabinet and eliminate unnecessary federal agencies?

Yes Vic
It was interesting or perhaps coincidence that in a year when we made nice profits the government agency came and collected very nice fines.

Oberstar
Is an embarrassment to all level headed Minnesotans.

On the flip side, Stossel is a credit to his profession. America could use more 'journalists' like him.

Stossel, say what?
Let me get this straight... you actually think companies will NOT cut corners and try to do the absolutely minimal amount of maintenance to keep the airplanes flying? I don't believe that every company is out to make a quick buck and then leave town, but it only takes one airline company to cut too many corners to kill hundreds of passengers.

And, it's laughable that you said "...in some cases the *liability system*, provide sufficient incentives for firms to behave in a socially beneficial manner.", since you are the very man that wants to take away a jury's right to punish a company as they see fit.

poorgrandchildren
Yes, and that was exactly the inference I was trying to make. Fascist wasn't being used as an insult but as a descriptive term for a system of thinking. And yes, it does sound familiar.

glnflwrs
With regards to the Alaskan Airlines issue...

And, if the FAA hadn't been around, do you think the maintenance crew would NOT have used this Mobil lubricant? They didn't have to use the Mobil lubricant, but I'm sure it was cheaper, so if appealed to their bottom line.

There are absolutely some regulations and agencies that go overboard and are useless and redundant, but that doesn't mean we should throw out the whole regulatory system.
Just like there are some really corrupt companies, but I'm not asking for the whole industry to be scrapped.

Get rid of those corrupt companies and get rid of those unnecessary regulations, but leave the rest alone.

syler
One of my professors worked in the mine safety dept of one of the deep underground mines in apartheid South Africa. They determined that any time a worker died it cost the company $1 million internally for the mandatory inquests and downtime while they determined what happened. Since this was 30 years ago, add the appropriate inflation factor.

The companies wanted their shift bosses to know that it was far too expensive to the company for any worker to die, regardless of skin colour, because it would cost them money directly. Not because it was bad, but because it's costly.

The US is far more litigious than South Africa. willfull neglect causing harm would spawn class action lawsuits that would likely put any willfully neglegent companies out of business.

Companies have the intention to do things properly not because it's the right thing to do, but because it's good business.

Pro and Con - opposites; Progress and ..
99% of regulations do nothing but restrain progress and free trade. (don't quote my number because you know 85% of statistics are made up on the spot.) My point is that in my experience as a commercial pilot I saw over and over again examples of massive overreactions in regulation in the name of SAFETY. Trust me, if the FAA was in control of automobile production, we'd all be driving strapped into tanks that go 14 mph max.

Anti regulation
I agree with most of the posters who want less regulation of the air lines. In fact, I'll go you one better. Lets get rid of all government regulation of the airlines. No FAA.

The airlines have shown us through out their history of their foresight and ability to handle bad situations. Unfortunately, someone usually has to die to get them to react, but what the heck, capitalism forever.

I never have to fly. I don't need to jet off for a weekend or vacation in the tropics or to a ski chalet. I personally hope that the FAA is abolished and no one but true believers in capitalism fly. Maybe your beliefs will keep those planes in the air.

There is a misunderstanding here
Just because we say there is nothing in the Constitution that allows the feds to regulate the airlines doesn’t mean that there should be no regulation. Before FDR and the insane definition of interstate commerce each State regulated various items as they saw fit.

There is a need for regulation of some industries due to the potential to cause harm to a large segment of the population. However it needs to be done in a correct and consistent manner.

First there needs to be an amendment to the constitution that spells out exactly what interstate commerce is and what the federal government has the authority to regulate vs what should remain at the State level to regulate.

Second all politics and influence peddling needs to be removed from the process. To all of you liberals you think that means that “big business” would be banned from the process. But that would be only partially right. The other interveners would also be banned. For example in writing legislation for clean water not only would Mr. Factory system be banned, but Mr. Eco-idiot would also be banned.

The regulation should be based on sound science and also take into account a cost-benefit arrangement that is real and measurable. In other words, reducing the allowable arsenic levels in local tap water to a point that would require a university lab to monitor the water quality full time at a cost of several million dollars a year per water system for a marginal benefit that is not measurable could not be done. (and it could not be done via executive fiat either).

And finally, every regulation and its associated department should undergo a complete review from top to bottom on a regular basis by a group from outside the agency to determine if the agency is fulfilling its original intent and if it is still needed and is cost effective.

InsightingTruth
Great post at 7:36am. Nuff Said. This extra discussion is for BS only. It is time to get back to basics.

Vic
Since that would be the legal and intelligent way to do it, I can guarantee you it won’t happen.


Bleeding Heart Liberal
writes, "Maybe your beliefs will keep those planes in the air."

Interesting. Telekinetics? Mind over matter? I am not much of a believer in such things. Miracles do happen however. I think the chances of this working are as good as the chances that the FAA prevents more deaths than they cause. They certainly showed Oberstar what happens when safety is job one and trade offs are ignored.


John Shaft:
Thanks John.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to see the simplicity of the whole issue. There seems to be a basic human need for complication, as if identifying complex issues, where none exist, makes people feel smarter.

They spend their lives dithering in pools of pretence when the unassuming truth is a USCG approved flotation device bobbing right in front of them.

Genius
John Stossel is a Genius. That's all!

Insighting Truth
I love the analogy about the swimming pool & the life raft. You are correct about people. We can make things that are simple VERY complicated.
The simplicity or common sense logic is the beauty of the US Constitution. It is bad that many US Citizens have NEVER read or understood this powerful document.

Of course Oberstar is a dimwit...
Jeez, guys. Oberstar is a liberal Democrat here in Minnesota with too much power. He and other Minnesota libs managed to turn the I-35 Bridge tragedy into a political fiasco resulting in a $6.6 Billion "transportation" tax with a lot of pork in it. (Guess who's congressional district receives the pork?)

His sole purpose in Washington is to get government deeper into your pockets and remove common sense from the political process.

glnflwrs,
the grease substitute, although early on was thought to be a problem was disregarded by the airline,Boeing, and the ntsb, as the primary problem. However even if true it would continue to add to my point that outside or industry wide standards are needed, as one of the stated reason for the subsitution was cost.
I dont think my post in any way came across as anti-industry,capitalism, or dependence on big government. If it did that was not my intent. Nor was I incorrect in my statements in what were considered to be the causes of the destruction of flight 261.

You may disagree with my point that some gov. regs are needed, however to say that my facts aint is mistaken.


Vic in regards to your last post
I concur completely. To say no regulation is as unreasonable as it is to say gov. alone should have the final authority.

If you want to know...
...what the Constitution says,the last thing you want to do is read the Constitution,because the Constitution says what the US Supreme Court says that it says, and it doesn't say anything else.

Yeah,I know the Constitution does not give the Supreme Court that authority,but that is the way it is.I don't see that changing.

Nam65-66:
Yours is a very popular misbelief. The Supreme Court is not the final arbiter of what The Constitution says; the ultimate judge of the meaning of The Constitution is us, you and I and our fellow citizens.

John
We need to rethink the premise of government, period.

Unca Alby
In all of 2007, there was not a single death in accidents involving larger schedule U.S. airlines and smaller commuter planes. And, the government says the number ...

http://www.koin.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=858 90695-802a-4d02-8ac8-a4b48e25ffe2

Deaths by automobile in 2007, 43,000
http://www.saferoads.org/state/Fatalities%20Chart2007.pdf

so as you can see it pays to do some research before opening one's mouth.

Government...
...is a necessary danger.

There are a few jobs, necessary for civil society, that markets are unable to provide. They are very few, and their number is shrinking, not growing.

The framers identified only 18 functions that seemed to require a government. Do to advances in technology there are even fewer today.

government
And 18 functions became 8 million because we also forgot the 2nd amendment is supposed to be there to keep the government in check. That and to many people are ignorant and greedy, "who cares if the government is nothing but corrupt thieves as long as I get my cut".

Time to start thinking about taking it back.

Constitutional Authority??
para_dimz sites Article I, Sec. 8, clause 3 and 7 as constitutional authority for Congress to regulate airlines. By my count, clause 7 authorizes establishing post offices and postal roads. This has NOTHING to do with airlines, even if planes are carrying mail. Clause 3 (aka the interstate commerce clause) is the most abused clause in the Constitution and makes NO mention of safety or transportation.

Insighting Truth says"
"As to Clause 7, what does the post office and post roads have to do with airline regulation?"
Mail moves by air. Ever hear of AIR mail? THere are highways in the sky. Get an aviation map and go see. There is your nexus. Public safety in interstate commerce IS a legitimate government function. We can argue all day on the details while I will hold that this is legit in the main.
We do not disagree that the Commerce Clause has been used as an excuse to magnify government intervention into our lives beyond the framers' intentions.
I'm just pointing out that this is the way it is and even with the current conservative leaning in the Supreme Court no one is likely to prevail in a challenge to this particular episode by taking your tac on the matter.

StevenF
If I carry your logic to another amendment then repeating arms are NOT something which you have a right to own. Just like there were no repeating arms in 1789 there were no highways and byways in the sky in 1789. It's your logic, not mine. It's flawed too.
I say there is no overstepping of authority of the government to regualte, whatever that may or should mean on post roads, the high seas within our territorial boundaries or in the skies over the nation to insure public safety in interstate commerce.
I bet most of you have no clue as to the destructive forces to the systems of an a/c that are part and parcel of normal everyday flying. Therefore you are spouting off about something for which your best guess is akin to what happens to your car or boat. It is a very different world.

Bleeding Heart Liberal -- Regulations
"The airlines have shown us through out their history of their foresight and ability to handle bad situations. Unfortunately, someone usually has to die to get them to react,"


And just what the heck do you think motivates the creation of new regulations?

You think maybe the FAA has checked their crystal ball and foreseen every possible situation and circumstance where a regulation may be needed, then wrote it down on stone tablets for Moses to bring down from the mountain?

Come on, get real. Nobody's perfect, Ok? Can we establish that right at the offset?

Yes, sometimes a plane has to crash to get airlines to react. BUT THEY DO REACT. It's their $$ on the line, and they're toast if they don't react.

It's almost the same with regulators. Yes, sometimes a plane has to crash to get regulators to react. Then after a few meetings, a couple of congressional seminars (in CanCun), some more meetings with the airline reps, and, eventually, sooner or later, if you're carefully watching your paint dry, new regulations will be written.

The new regulations might even make sense. But no matter, the regulators' jobs are secure, no matter what happens.

That's the difference. If the airlines screw up, their jobs are toast. Not so for the regulators.

toro - thank you
"In all of 2007, there was not a single death in accidents involving larger schedule U.S. airlines and smaller commuter planes."

"Deaths by automobile in 2007, 43,000"

"so as you can see it pays to do some research before opening one's mouth."

Well, I wasn't going to look up the numbers to prove my point, but since you went to all that trouble, thanks!

There you have it folks: driving automobiles is more dangerous than flying. So the more inconvenience you add to air travel, the more people you convince to drive instead of fly, the more people are going to end up getting killed.

For what? To shrink ZERO deaths from air travel to a NEGATIVE number? Maybe all these wonderful regulations can un-crash a plane or two, yah?

Airline-Pilot -- Inconvenience vs. Death
"So what if 22,000 travelers were inconvenienced. Just think of the inconvenience if just one plane had an inflight problem and crash landed resulting in deaths to a few hundred people. Deaths are more permanent than a few days inconvenience."

The issue isn't just inconvenience. It's the issue of people do not WANT to be inconvenienced, and so will take alternatives if they are available.

Currently, the only viable alternative to air travel is driving. And that kills 43,000 people per year.

So when you push people out of the airplanes, you'd better have a VERY STRONG SAFETY reason. NOT because you want to impress some moron in Congress.

This inconvenience DOES kill people, as 1000's of people decide to drive instead of fly, putting their lives at a much greater risk. This has been the case ever since the 9-11 security measures went into effect, and gestapo-level safety regulations will only make it worse.

A contrary thought
Those who claim that government regulation, as opposed to private responsibility and self regulation, saves lives - can rarely prove the postulate. They can only insist that it is true. Do more planes crash with it, or without it?

This is the germ of all arguments that justify regulating industries that did not previously have federal regulations. This, and the arrogance of those who think that I, as a citizen, should not be able to make my own decisions about such things because they think they're smarter than I am. It should be my choice, not yours - or governments.

So, the consumer products administration puts labels on 5 gallon buckets to warn people that if you put your head in the bucket when it is full of water, you could drown. Seems a few infrequent unfortunates have actually drowned in one. The list of these things, needless to say, is endless. I like fresh - non pasteurized milk - but you force me to drink milk that is irradiated because although I drank it for 14 years on our dairy farm and no one got ill, you seem to think, again, that you're smarter than me. And eliminating the flavors of the cheeses and baked goods made from fresh cream is the price I must pay for your superior intellect. After all, how could I conceivably know what is good for me? Frankly, most people who pursue most of the regulations we are now burdened with are what we once called somewhat self righteous do-gooders. They've decided they know best, and they know best for all of us, and as a result, they've taken away our right to choose and substituted theirs.

Cont'd
And, I might add, in substituting theirs, they've burdened me with the cost of their judgement - or lack of it, as the case may be. In their world, they are determined to live risk free. It can't be done, of course, but they blindly pursue that belief. God forbid that something kills someone - because if it does, it will be regulated. And if 4 or 5 people die, why that's grounds for a federal investigation. My view is that such types should build those bunkers and then move in. That would be almost risk free - assuming someone gave them food. The good side - and great over-all societal benefit, is that we'd no longer have them among us. Instead, they'd be with the worms - which is precisely where most belong.

Consider, people, that 50 years ago 95% of this nonsense didn't exist. So, tell me you empathetic regulatory types. How many years have you really added to everyones life? Is it worth it to any of us - or is it simply the delusion of government and these do-gooders that convinces them that since they've concluded that they must do these things - that they must, perforce, be good for us?

Corporations get away with to much...
..and has for a long time. “The media and politicians suggest that airlines would cut corners to make money,” Yes they would and do cut corners. They cut whatever they can get away with. Let’s take the sugar off this ok; they ARE in the business to make money and that is the bottom line. Then the same Government that makes the rules for the FAA and its inspections then take “ALL” the rights away from the Airline Passenger and yet the Government is surprised! The airline cuts corners or deniability of any wrong doing by farming out its work to private contractors. It is cheaper than paying company employees. Yet, if a passenger complains about what they feel is a wrong doing of any type, and is already on the aircraft the Police will be waiting for them at the other end. Then “HOMELAND SECURITY” comes into play! The Passenger cannot win yet the Airline never sees any Police or Jail time for any infractions it commits. All they may get is a fine and that fine really does nothing as it is then passed on to the passengers! The Airline gets away with murder and the Government lets them. You really want to stop Corporate Greed at any cost? Make the C.E.O. and the board of Directors Responsible for wrong doings by anyone in the company. PUT THEM IN JAIL PERIOD, for any crime the company gets caught at period. NEXT!

It's the Syndrome - Stupid!
It's the you cannot Argue with Ignorance, nor Debate with Stupidty (Or AIDS) Syndrome in full action here! Don't you see and understand this -stupid? Ha!

John Stossel
Unfortunately, John, although I enjoy reading and listening to your work, the reality is that you have personally contributed significantly to the overreaction of the news media and government to these kinds of stories by much of your reporting in the past. We are a nation of cowering sheep and the news media have been enthusiastic co-conspirators. Fear of another 9-11 has left us with trillions of dollars wasted on useless "safety" expenditures and far fewer freedoms.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.