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Wednesday, March 26, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Law Can't Prevent Underage Sex
by John Stossel
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In my last two columns, I discussed the cases of young people who were placed on sex-offender registries because their sexual partners were below the age of consent. For the rest of their lives, any neighbor or employer who looks them up on the Web will be led to believe they are pedophiles.

This raises many questions, among them: What is the right age of consent?

The legal age is different everywhere. In Yemen, it's 9, although you have to be married. In Mexico, you can legally have sex as early as 12. In the United States, the age varies by state, ranging from 16 to 18.

For "20/20" I spoke to an 18-year-old boy who had sexual relations with a girl four years younger. Isn't that taking advantage of a 14-year-old? I asked.

"I wouldn't think so. I thought I was really gonna have a relationship."

What if she were 13?

"I really can't answer that question ... because she wasn't."

What if she were 12?

"Oh, heck no. There's a point where you draw the line somewhere."

But where? The law is at odds with what goes on in real life. The Centers for Disease Control reports that a quarter of America's teens say they had sex before they were 16. Since no state's age of consent is lower, millions of Americans must be breaking the law.

Some groups, like the Family Research Council, say the laws should be stricter.

"We oppose efforts to lower [the age of consent]," Peter Sprigg, its vice president for policy, told me.

But 17-year-olds are still going to have sex.

"Well, they are. But I think it's a legitimate goal of public policy to discourage that."

Making it illegal discourages it?

"There will be some deterrent effect presumably. That's what all of our laws do."

Family counselor Dr. Marty Klein disagrees.

"The idea that we criminalize 14-year-olds' having oral sex or sexual intercourse with 16-year-olds, that's a horrible solution to a subtle and complex issue."

Klein calls this criminalization of sexual activity America's War on Sex.

"Telling a kid just say no, and expecting them to not have sex, that's like telling somebody who's depressed, have a nice day, and expecting that to lift their depression."

Some states created exemptions to their statutory rape laws for kids who are close in age. They're called "Romeo and Juliet" exemptions because Romeo and Juliet were close in age. But I bet the legislators would be surprised to learn that Shakespeare's Juliet was only 13.

Klein says, "We trust 15-year-olds to make decisions all the time. We give them access to credit cards. We let 16- and 17-year-olds drive cars. The idea that somebody who's behind the wheel of a car can't make good sexual decisions, I think, is more about our anxiety about sex than it is about any clear thinking about 17-year-olds."

But the Family Research Council's Sprigg will have none of this. "The focus should be on telling teens that sex should be saved for marriage. The benefits of waiting are enormous."

If they're too young, why did God make them biologically ready? I asked him.

"Well, in some ancient cultures, it would have been perfectly appropriate for young people to marry and start a family as soon as their bodies were biologically ready for reproduction. But we live in a very different culture, and young people today need more time before marriage, but they don't need sex before marriage."

Whatever the law says, there's no proof that age-of-consent laws deter sex before marriage. Many kids don't even know what the age of consent is.

Something is very wrong when young people, doing what hundreds of thousands of other kids do, are condemned for life on sex registries next to rapists and real pedophiles. There's no justice in that.

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John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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This may not matter
Much like the youngsters mentioned in the close of the column, I did not know the laws on consent
back in the fifties when my urges were overwhelmingly strong. I did not engage until I was past 21 years because of a strong upbringing to "wait for marriage".

I am not certain that was an entirely good thing, but I am certain that 13 year olds should be chaste.

Easy and frequent sex is not a good thing for society as a whole. The old "why the buy the cow" argument. Marriage means little today and we have far too many fatherless children.

Maybe John is right, we do not need the laws, but I am certain we need strong morals for our youth and public condemnation of baby mommas and daddies. When the government subsidises wheat, we get more wheat; when the government susidises b*st*rds, we get more b*st*rds..........not good.

Too young...
To be indoctrinated, propagandized, or taxed ?

Never.

Age And Intent
I view pedophiles as adults who have a perverted desire to have sex with children. In most states, this includes 17-year-olds.

Though the laws in these states decided that adulthood begins at age eighteen, IMO teenages cannot seriously be considered "adult". Who could say otherwise, with a straight face?

Rightfully, sex is a privilege of committed married couples...a man and a woman. Yet it's a strong temptation for most people.

The average teenager who crosses the line is not a pedophile, as I see it, but if they take advantage of those in their early teens, they deserve to be punished.

In addition, parents have a responsibility to "talk turkey" to their teenagers.

its not the age stupid
john makes a good point without driving it home.

age is not the issue, abuse of those emotionally unable to avoid abuse is the issue, and without a special magic number the law is ill prepared to deal with it.

i own a home in Rivas Nicaragua where the average 11, 12, 13 year old young woman is more emotionally mature than my 50 something ex wife, and certainly more mature than the vast majority of 20 something american little girls.

160 KMs miles away i own a place in Playas del Coco Costa Rica populated by women that die after a full life not ever emotionally becoming an adult.

the problem is the law is not capable of determining an age where little girls are emotionally able to be adult enough in their choice to not need legal protection.

the simple solve on this is allowing friends and neighbors decide guilt or innocence. if a man, as determined by his immediate social group sexually abuses a little girl as determined by her immediate social group, give the guy a South African necklace. tie him up, throw a tire full of gas around his neck and light it. problem solved, next question?

Age of Consent
Since it is obviously impossible to find an Age of Consent that is appropriate for all conditions, perhaps some other criterion should be used. It is well known that there is no truly failsafe form of contraception, therefore any sexual activity between male and female has a finite probability in producing a child. Maybe we should only condone sexual activity when at least one of the couple has already demonstrated an ability to pay for food and shelter for the family (has a job or is independently wealthy by inheritance, for example). Sex without that condition would be proscribed. The rampant ability to obtain abortions should not be used as an excuse to get around this law. (I don't think the government should be paying for abortions, either, but that is another subject.)


Criminalizing is the problem
I agree whole-heartedly that there should be an age differential limit before sex is legal, but that can be hard to do. Certainly no adult in their mid-20's should be going after 15-year-olds. I was 22 when I met my wife and she was 18. What if I had been 21 and she 17 - i.e. underage? Do older guys sway younger girls into sex before they're ready? Most definitely. I would say 16 vs 20 would be the minimum allowable, and anyone 20 or over having sex with one under 16 would be rape.

The problem is giving someone a record for life. I have a friend who's 17-year-old had sex with his 15-year-old girlfriend and when her parents found out he was arrested; 16 was legal. He is now 23 and on the sex-offender's registry, making employment very difficult for him. That is just plain unjust and stupid.

Wanted: A Return To Sanity

It is less necessary to have laws regulating morality when society acts as a moral watchdog.

It used to be that girls avoided sex outside of marriage, because they didn't want to be labeled a $lu+. Of course, the real reasons for moral behavior extend way beyond whether it is "nice" or not to act a certain way.

The truth is, girls benefit in the long run by picking out one moral man to bond with for life, a man who will agree to mutual faithfulness and exclusivity. But teenagers can't see all the way down to the end of their lives, when they are a happy grandmother surrounded by a loving extended family that is the fruit of their hard work and delayed gratification.

When teenagers are young and full of hormones, it is better to appeal to their concern for their reputations, because that is a young person's number one concern.

It is therefore distressing that the MSM has made a heroine out of this nasty little hoe that brought down the Eliot Spitzer. Of course, the former Governor of New York is equally disgusting, but he is not a beautiful young woman, who are the primary commodity of Madison Avenue.

Show pictures of a beautiful woman, and the channel surfers will pause to see who it is. Do you think for one moment that anyone actually admired Anna Nicole Smith? Of course not! People saw her as a side show freak, an accident that was waiting to happen, and finally did. But the media treated her death like she was royalty, instead of the low-class tramp that she actually was.

And so it is with the current hoe-of-the-month.

Children, neglected by their mothers who have gone off to "fullfill themselves" in a boring job, leaving them to be raised by an uneducated, illegal alien nanny, are desperate for attention.

They see the attention these worthless tramps get, and think that loose morals are the path to happiness. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Government subsidizing B**t***ds
FOWG in my opinion is right on the mark

I have to disagree
Mr. Stossel is presenting the argument incorrectly.

Age of consent laws are not in place to condemn the 16-year-old who fools around with the 14-year-old, and they shouldn't be used as such. They are intended to protect the 14-year-olds (and younger) from people in their mid-20s or older who would take advantage of a cute, young, naive child for their own sexual pleasure. As far as I know, most jurisdictions have "Romeo and Juliet" laws so the 18-year-old with the 17-year-old girlfriend isn't going to get in trouble if the age of consent is 18. Having said that, however, someone like me (35 years old) SHOULD be prosecuted for having a 17-year-old girlfriend.

If you completely get rid of Age of Consent laws, what justifies punishing pedophiles? If you argue for reducing the age of consent to, let's say 9 (Following the cited example of Yemen), do you really think it's OK for a 35 year old man to have full rights to have sexual contact with a 10 year old girl? THAT's what age of consent is for.

Close-age laws should be in place because the 16-year-old who fools around with a 14-year-old isn't a pedophile. But age-of-consent laws ought to stay as they are (or even be increased) because the 26-year-old fooling around with a 14-year-old is getting dangerously close.

Tweak the registries...
There are almost two diferent things at work here; laws re. minors' sexual conduct, and sex offenfer registries. As to the first- as others point out, all laws have as part of their intent to deter activites society deems negative. Obviously, people still commit crimes, despite the deterrant effect. Establishing the age of consent, and how to punish some who violate that, are matters too deep to solve here.

As to sex offender registries, obviously a bit of perspective is needed by some states. Treating the 17 yr. old who has unforced sex with his/her 15 yr. old girlfriend/boyfriend as as "dangerous" and as predatory as the 40 yr. old who molests/rapes 12 yr. olds, 8 yr. olds, 4 yrs. olds, is asinine. (As is treating someone who "moons" or is caught drunkenly urinating in public as just as "dangerous" as that aforementioned 40 yr. old.) Our legislators ought to use common sense when designing these registries and the regs surrounding them. But of course, whether Dem or Republican, too many legislators are lacking in common sense.

I don't know the answer either
but I have always been very uncomfortable with the whole sex registry thing. This is just one more tool that the government is going to use to control all of us.

Government criminalizing natural behavior that has been going on for thousands of years is not right and giving someone a criminal record for life for engaging in perfectly normal behavior is not right.

When I was 15, I met a young man who was 23. He wanted to date me, but my parents were very apprehensive. They allowed him to come over, and we listened to records on my back porch. (My parents wouldn't even let him in the house.)It never occurred to me that either one of us were criminals.

Be assured, the government will use this precedent and turn it on all of us for other behaviors they dislike. They have already started this in some states with registries letting all your neighbors know if you owe back taxes.

Totalitarianism comes in slowly and begins by making government control look like a good thing. Government uses the fear of immoral behavior inherent in Christians to gain their approval of government control devices of all kinds.

We need to be very careful here.

Informed Consent?
If it were true that teens were old enough to give knowing consent to have sex -- with each other or with adults -- then they would also be old enough to understand that if they make that choice to have sex underage the legal consequences WILL follow them forever.

After all, the #1 consequence of sex -- having a baby -- would also be with them lifelong.

No one thinks that getting married at 14, 15, or 16 and having babies at that age is a good idea. Conservatives and liberals alike express grave concern about teens entering a marriage before they are mature enough to make a rational decision about a lifelong commitment and grave concern about the health and well-being of underage teen mothers and their babies both.

Sex = babies. There is no getting around that.

If teens are too young to marry and too young to bear and raise children then they are too young to be having sex. There are no two ways about it.

If teens were responsible enough to consent to sex then they would be responsible enough to understand that sex with someone below the age of consent is illegal AND to understand that the record will follow them forever. Therefore no sympathy for someone who made his bed and then cried because he had to lie in it.

But if they aren't responsible enough to bear the legal burden of their decision then they aren't responsible enough for parenting and thus aren't responsible enough to be having sex at all. Therefore society is justified in using both social and legal measures to protect vulnerable young people from their own irresponsibility.

If teens are capable of giving informed consent to have sex, with each other or with adults, then they're also capable of giving informed consent in all other areas of life -- driving, drinking, medical care, voting and all. If they're not capable of doing those things responsibly then they're not capable of giving informed consent about sex.

Difficult subject
I don't think someone who engages in consensual sex should be labelled as a sex offender.

That being said, I do not promote sex outside of marriage. I think marriage should be the only place for sex to happen. However, I think it should be strictly a moral issue, rather than a legal one.

The status of Sexual Offender should be for rapists, pedophiles, and the like.

What would be difficult for me is determining exactly what makes a pedophile.

Obviously, a forty year old man who seeks sexual relations with 16 year olds is a pedophile.

Is a nineteen year old boy who has sex with a seventeen year old girl a pedophile? I don't think so, yet there are many such young men across the nation who are listed as sexual offenders, and I think that is plain wrong, at least in the instances where it was consensual sex between both parties. If it was forced in any way, then he should be labelled a sexual offender, of course.

Like it or not, there are many guys who are listed as sexual offenders or predators who should not be on that list. The laws do need to be changed.

Methods other than the law should be used to prevent sex between teenagers. I think the primary responsibility is on the parents to provide a good upbringing that stresses sexual abstinence until marriage.

Wrong Take
First, start with the title. No law prevents anything. The law only defines what society considers to be wrong. Laws against murder don't prevent murder, they define it. The only thing that prevents something that is wrong is individuals choosing to be moral.

Second, Stossel is way off here because he is being hoodwinked by a false argument. Really do some digging and find out who is behind the movement to reduce and/or eliminate age of consent laws. Scratch the surface of this and you find groups like NAMBLA lurking around this issue. This is a red herring, trying make sex with underage people more palatable so they can get what they really want, societal sanction of their deviancy.

The real issue here should be the readiness of teens for such behavior. As the father of two of them I can tell you that emotionally speaking, they are utterly incapable of a true relationship in which mutual love and respect can flower. Most teen relationships are selfish and the other person is "loved" because of the way it makes the self feel to have a boy/girlfriend. Look at Stossel's own article and the boy he quotes. "I thought I was really gonna have a relationship." Note the past tense, this guy doesn't know about real, healthy relationships, how can he, he is just a kid.

Fact is, there are not any noticable negatives for waiting. There are a ton of negatives for plunging into sex too early: unwanted pregnancy, 1/4 of teen girls having STDs, emotional baggage that threatens future mature relationships, an increasing demeaning and objectivication of women in pop culture, single motherhood which is a major indicator of both female and childhood poverty, abortion and on and on.


What is the purpose of criminal law?
--
Disharmoniously, harmony claims:

"Rightfully, sex is a privilege of committed married couples...a man and a woman. Yet it's a strong temptation for most people."

Masterpiece of understatement in that latter sentence. As for any matter of "privilege"....

Whateverinhell is it that leads the normative types (also known as "Puritan jerkwads") into the placidly bovine assumption that an individual's inalienable right - to life, to liberty, and to a property in his own body - is somehow a "privilege"?

A right exists prior to law or regulation.

Rights comprise the *REASON* why we create, live under, and enforce laws. Why we charter civil government and suffer its inevitable stupidities and waste - because government's only purpose here in America is to ENFORCE OUR RIGHTS.

Not to turn them (and their exercise) into "privileges."

As for the criminalization of this particular exercise of individual rights....



----------
"'Did you really think we *want* those laws observed?' said Dr. Ferris. 'We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one *makes* them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be
much easier to deal with.'"

-- Ayn Rand

Living in ignorance
""We oppose efforts to lower [the age of consent]," Peter Sprigg, its vice president for policy, told me."
For me the last name of this man is totally appropriate. What a prig. If we want children to stop having sex we need to actually show them what it is to deal with the consequences of their actions.
When I caught my daughter and her boyfriend getting hot and heavy (both 16 a the time) I calmly told the boy to go home. I called his mother and let her know what happened so she could deal with the situation as she saw fit. And then for the next 3 nights in a row I woke my daughter up at 3 in the morning telling her "The baby is crying. You need to get up and feed it. Get up right now." I tugged on her blankets until I knew she was wide awake, then explained that if she got pregnant this is what life would hold for her because I certainly wasn't going to rraise her child and pay for HER mistakes. I then showed her pictures of genital herpes from a medical book. And the AIDS lesions. And many other disgusting side-effects of insidious STDs.
She's a 20 year old college sophmore now, and no babies yet. She takes her BC pills and I notice she always has condoms in her purse. She is not promiscuous, but she does have a healthy sex life with her boyfriend.
The whole lesson was a pain for me, but it seems to have worked. Mr. Prigg needs to undo his anal-cranial lockup and work with families, not judge them. The Bible I read says Gd has given individuals the freedom to choose. Accepting the consequnces of those choices is also his blessing. Get over yourself Mr. Sprigg and the Family Research Council. I don't answer to you and your attempts to force people to follow your ignorant and narrow minded thinking is why conservatives get a bad name.


Intent, intent, INTENT, folks!
Need I say it again? Draconian zero-tolerance laws like those currently in existence do not allow for a judge to do his job and, yes, judge whether or not there is criminal (say it with me now) intent. We're getting to the point where the courts may as well be Verdict-O-Mats... input some data, punch a few buttons... ding! Out pops the sentence! Kid passes a cough lozenge in class to a friend suffering with a cold... he's an instant drug dealer! Boy tickles girl's feet in the schoolyard at recess... he's an instant sexual harasser! Adult 45 year-old male is on a prescription diuretic for high blood pressure, has an extra iced tea at lunch, and while driving back to the office, realizes he's got an urgently full bladder -- and his choice is to either wet his pants and have his car's upholstery stink of pee for the rest of its mechanical life, or pull over to the side of the road and try to discreetly urinate against the side of his own car (hey, the outside washes a lot more easily than the inside)... he's an instant sex offender! In the registry for life!
We may never see another Solomon, but with laws such as we have now, with no room for interpretation, qualities like wisdom and judgement of any kind, especially to determine that most important of factors which renders someone a criminal, which is intent, will leave our courts completely. Just pass the calculator so we can pass sentence...

Teens Do Care About Their Future
Just tell them what my high school sex-ed teacher told us: "A few minutes of pleasure can mean a lifetime of misery".

Stossel:
Do upi really think this helps your argument?
"We let 16- and 17-year-olds drive cars."

And society suffers the consequences of letting those under the age of 18 behind the wheel of thousands of pounds of steel at high speeds on our highways. You shold know better than I the auto "accident" stats of drivers under the age of eighteen.

And further, this ludicrous statement:
"The idea that somebody who's behind the wheel of a car can't make good sexual decisions..."

Since it's been manifestly proven that teens behind the wheel of a car quite frequently don't make very good decisions at all--just as they quite often do not made sound decisions with regard to sex.

Or this...
"The Centers for Disease Control reports that a quarter of America's teens say they had sex before they were 16."

Since they also say that an identical one quarter of teen girls have one of more STDs.

Age of consent
Several posters so far have described age differential types of laws as a possible solution, however such a law would invalidate the entire concept of an age of consent. If you say, for example, that you think an 18 year old should be able to have sex with a 16 year old then you are explicitly stating that 16 year olds are capable of consenting to have sex. At this point, the age of the second party is irrelevant to the 16 year old's ability to consent. And merely thinking it "weird" that 40 year old would be interested in a 16 year old has nothing to do with the equation (and I don't think is any less creepy than if the two were 40 and 18 or even 85 and 35). In FL we have such an age difference law (16 for under 24) but it has multiple challenges in court and will likely be tossed on equal protection grounds. Don't ALL 16 year olds deserve protection from ALL potential predators and not just the ones 24 and older? And doesn't everyone 24 and older deserve the same freedom from prosecution that 18-23 year olds have when the law states that a 16 year old IS capable of consenting to sex? Don't get me wrong, I understand the motivation for such laws and recognize that no single age of consent is either low enough to recognize the maturity of some teens or high enough to protect the others that are unusually immature for their age. Unfortunately, we are still left with no alternative to a bright line that doesn't entirely make sense or abolishing age of consent altogether (zero possibility). And as a side note, how does it make sense that child porn laws do NOT follow states' ages of consent. In Washington state I can have sex with a 16 year old every day of the week, but merely taking a nude photograph of the same teen should land me in jail? Again, I understand the intent to be preventing states with lower ages from becoming shild porn factories, but it is GROSS injustice on an individual level.

Part of the problem is
that age-of-consent laws are usually directed against the males. A male is guilty of statuatory rape if he has sex with a younger female, but a female is not guilty if she has sex with a younger male. The standard age-of-consent law should read something like, "Any person having sex with any person under the age of eighteen is guilty of statuatory rape. This means that two 16-year-olds are both guilty, and both are risking their futures by having sex. Both of them have to think about the consequences of a statuatory rape conviction. If they conceive, her parents will have to think twice about having him jailed, because she would also be guilty of the same crime and subject to the same jail term.

Unmarrieds sexual activity
Married people accept responsibility for consequences of sexual activity. Unmarrieds do not. So male and female "sexually active" unmarrieds should get an insurance policy paying for all STDs treatment, prenatal care, birth costs and financial support for any children until 18. They should have to earn the premium whatever their ages. Parents of minors and providers of services and products (schools, clinics, welfare, etc.) must pay the premium and require them to reemburse with earnings.

Too many desire adult rights. Too few accept adult repsonsibilities.

A Difference
There's a difference between two teenagers having sex and an adult taking advantage of a child. But how do you codify that into a fair law?

A 35 year-old man having sex with a 15 year-old girl certainly sound wrong, but what about an 18 year-old and a 16 year-old? That's legal in some states but not others. The two teenagers could easily be in the same classroom as students. This issue isn't as cut-and-dried as it seems to be.

Pedophiles
And one more issue needs to be addressed with regard to the sex offender issue. Frequently, the term "pedophile" is misused to describe ANYONE interested in having sex with a person underage, which could be up to 17 depending on the state. While this has become the effective definition due to VAST misuse of the term, it actually refers to a person that is sexually attracted to PREpubescent children. There is nothing psychologically wrong with a person that wants to engage in sex with another SEXUALLY mature partner, which the vast majority of middle teens are (you DO have to wonder about the emotional needs of a person that would be seeking out emotionally immature partners, I will grant). But it is a completely different story when you are talking about a person that fantasizes about sexual situation with a NON-sexual partner. So again, one is kind "creepy" though realtively normal (youth has been a desireable quality since civilization began) and the other is demonstrative of a serious psychological problem. It would be nice if we didn't confuse the two so that "pedophile" actually means something when applied to an appropriate subject.

Holy Cow!
gc writes: Wednesday, March, 26, 2008 2:33 AM

"i own a home in Rivas Nicaragua where the average 11, 12, 13 year old young woman is more emotionally mature than my 50 something ex wife,..."

And you couldn't tell that before you married her?! Wow!

;-)

Ron
I can't speak for every single state's laws, but the scenario you described of two 16 year olds becoming statutory rapists in an 18 state is not correct in the context of state laws of which I am aware. Statutory rape can only be committed by a person ABOVE the age of consent.

A generation of bed hoppers?
Ugh! Your saying we have turned into a country of white trash. So your thinking these kids that hop from bed to bed are going to be capable of remaining true to their spouse someday? Kids do have a moral compass and common sense. They are not animals on hormones. Sex outside of marriage is not fun it's empty, meaningless, dirty and leaves you used not loved. The 18 year old having sex with a 14 year old is disturbed and will most likely someday be in prison. If fathers stayed married to their wives and had the courage to act like fathers we wouldn't have this problem. A real father would have gone and beat the hell out of that kid you were talking to and you should have at least punched him in the nose.
This generation is in love with toys and so they are waiting until mid-thirties to get married. Late teens and early twenties are better for marriage when you are still capable of falling in love before you get into the bad habit of bed hopping.

Baby you can drive my car
I agree with the poster who took issue with the idiot Dr. Klein cited by Stossel who equated driving a car with sexual activity. In other words if a kid can summon the self-control to stop for a traffic light he or she can surely govern their sexual urges. I think the normally sensible Stossel included that man's thinking as a test to see if we were paying attention. Well, some of us were paying attention and Klein just sounds ridiculous. For all the libertarians out there, the consent and age laws were put in place as a reflection of Biblical teaching which, if observed, serves individuals and society well. Reserving sex for marriage has tremendous advantages whether one is religious or god-fearing. The consequences of abstention are ridiculously miniscule compared to the consequences of unplanned, premarital sex. For the poster who says that his Bible describes a life of unfettered sexual choices I can only shake my head in disbelief.

Common Sense???
Howee said "Our legislators ought to use common sense..."

You mean legislators are supposed to have common sense? I thought that was a counterdiction of terms.

Maturity
I have to agree with the theme that some people mature earlier (later) than others. I've seen ten year olds who have more maturity that some sixty year olds, although that isn't the common thing. A married man or woman who talks and plans to have sex with every person they see is certainly not mature. They are forty year olds going on sixteen. The sad thing is that many of the mature ten year olds are mature because of hardship, which can include sex.

Beckie
Brilliant! What a wise and practical lesson you taught your daughter when she was 16. And, I couldn't agree more with your final two sentences.

We are Islamists
We want to use to the government to force our moral and religious agenda on other people.

Maybe the degree that we use the government is less (for now), but the philosophy is the same.



Other way
There is a lot of talk about the 22 year old who has sex with a 16 year old. What about the 16 year old who has sex with the 22 year old?

I've seen mid-teens who were very agressive about sex. Most of them were girls. I once had a friend who was thirteen but looked twenty. She got a date with a college boy. (Where were her parents?) She told me that she was going to dress sexy and have sex with him despite me telling her it was a bad idea. Later when I saw her she said he found out how old she was and wouldn't have sex. It was lucky he found out! She didn't like his normal girl friend and wanted to take him away from her. I know of at least two mid-teen girls who deliberately got pregnant for that reason!

The older person is not always the guilty party. But according to our laws they always are. There was a party at Corpus some time back. A fifteen year old girl there cornered an 18 year old boy and slid his hand into her dress to get him turned on. Then they went out to have sex. She got pregnant and her parents had him arrested and convicted of statutory rape even though the girl admitted what she had done in court. My question was, "why did her parents allow her to go to the party in the first place?"

It's all down to the parents
There needs to be accountability for the the parents of a teen having underage sex. They are ultimately responsible for the child's moral values.

Stossel's Point Is That
justice is not served by confusing the acts of consenting sexually active people who happen to be arbitrarily under age with those of sexual predators.

Do we really want the government regulating our reproductive/sexual practices? Do we want the people who can't get our driver's licenses, automobile registrations, passports, tax returns, etc., correct deciding these things for us?

These are the same people who can't figure out how to educate an inner city kid for $12,000 a year. These are the same people who decided that poor people should be able to get mortgages for homes they had no prayer of paying for. These are the people who see our energy costs going through the roof and can't find the wherewithal to clear the way for domestic oil and nuclear energy production. In other words, our government is for the most part horribly incompetent. Do you really believe that they can get regulating our sexual activities right?

The answer is to abolish laws that restrict the behavior of consenting individuals and enact and enforce laws that carefully restrict predatory behavior. Having sex with your girlfriend/boy friend is completely different than luring an unsuspecting person of any age into a situation where he or she is coerced into having sex he or she would not otherwise welcome.

Everything else is a matter of personal responsibility. If you don't think your kids should be having sex, that's your responsibility to shoulder. Not mine. I don't want to either fund the enforcement or empower the government to attempt the enforcement. One look at the war on drugs will tell you everything you need to know about how well such things work out.

White Matter
While Stossel makes excellent points about the sex-offender registry being to broad in its scope, and the general ineffectiveness of the law when it comes to sexual behavior, he is all wrong about teens emotional maturity.

The part of the brain called "white matter regulates things like impulse control, and does not fully develop until the mid-twenties. This is why people do crazy things at 16 that they would never do at 30. It is also why we need to supervise teens and not trust them to make the right choices. Even his example of drivers licenses works against his point, since teen drivers have the highest accident rates.

I believe that the answer to the problem is cultural, not legal. The reason most adults don't have sex with teens is because they find them to be immature and thus undesirable. Those that are attracted to teens often refrain, not because of the legal consequences, but the social stigma.

Obviously pedophiles must be punished and treated (there are now effective therapies that can cure them), but teens need to be discouraged from dangerous activities using good old-fashioned scorn.

Deterrents work
I have not gone down to Manhattan and strangled Joy Behar from the view. This proves that deterrents work.

Parents, teach your children..
As the mother of a VERY good looking son that has a great personality, I warn parents to teach there kids. Not only did I have to worry about the underage girls going after him and THROWING themselves at him, I had to worry about the 20 somethings also throwing themselves at him.

He is 23 now and he has even had 30+ somethings make suggestions to him. I taught him from a 12 on that he would have these problems and to NEVER touch a girl until he was much older, because of the ridiculous laws. Did he listen? I don't know for sure. But the lines of communication have always been very open between us - that is why I know about these women. Anyone who thinks these "girls" are "innocent"
is wearing huge blinders!!

These young consenting teens should not be on this list - at all!!

Tough issue
+1 on Romeo & Juliet laws being a good thing. Set the age bracket and enforce it. If the bracket is 2 years, then an 18 year old who has sex with a 15 year old goes to prison. If they aren't mature enough to know the law - then by defintion they aren't mature enough to have sex.

On a related topic:
Be careful quoting the CDC. 2 years ago they said that obesity was causing an excess 250,000 mortalities a year (second after heart disease). Then somebody actually checked their math and found it was actually about 25,000 extra deaths per year. Wrong by a factor of 10! Despite being proven wrong - and acknowledging that they WERE wrong - they refused to stop spending taxpayer money on thier anti-obesity campaign. Essentially because they had already printed the posters!

Trust the CDC if you like. I'm pretty sure they didn't actually test all teenage girls in the US for STDs (or survey them all about sexual activity.) They have extrapolated from something and have been known to fit data to their agenda in the past.

age of consent
Public school systems are eager to teach sex education under the guise of preventing teen pregnacy. Their success rate is abismal, the major result is an increase in sexual activity at younger ages. Part of their program should include the age of consent and its ramifications
Klein says, "We trust 15-year-olds to make decisions all the time. We give them access to credit cards. We let 16- and 17-year-olds drive cars. The idea that somebody who's behind the wheel of a car can't make good sexual decisions, I think, is more about our anxiety about sex than it is about any clear thinking about 17-year-olds." When it comes to sex, when did any 17 year old think of anything more than self gratification?

tedmug
"For all the libertarians out there, the consent and age laws were put in place as a reflection of Biblical teaching which, if observed, serves individuals and society well."
----------------------------------------------------
For you to assume that libertarians are both ignorant of the origins of laws and that they are irreligious is not only patronizing, but unbelievably ignorant as well.

I believe that Christianity is the best path to a happy and fulfilled life, but if we're reading the same Bible, then the onus is on us to convince others of that fact. The government has no right to make people who aren't Christians behave like Christians; and as a Christian, you should realize that pious deeds (in this case, waiting for sex until marriage or any defined age) without an active internal spiritual life are an empty husk of morality. Imposing your beliefs on others through the force of law is paternalistic, and will embitter people against the very morality you claim you would like to see them embrace. Very shortsighted, indeed.

I'm a libertarian not because I'm a pot-smoking, whore-mongering atheist, but because I--like God--believe that true freedom includes the freedom to choose the wrong thing. I will not tolerate, let alone advocate, a bad or ineffective law--in this case, age of consent--simply because I believe that "there oughta be a law." THAT is the difference between liberals/conservatives and libertarians.

Research
CDC and most other government groups generally ask questions to about 1500 people. Based on those answers they come up with their data.

BUT ... it is easy to slant that data by where and how you ask the questions. If you ask only in inner city gettos you will certainly get different answers than if you ask, say, country people in Minnesota. You can also slant by questions. Take a look at most of the questionares you might get in the mail. One from Greenpeace asked, "Are you concerned about the environment?" If you answer yes, then you are supporting anything that they say they want. So take all questions and data acquired with a grain of salt.

We Need Laws to Back Parents
Fornication is wrong, but I do not believe all fornication should be illegal - for example, fornication between consenting, unmarried ADULTS.

But just because something shouldn't be illegal does NOT mean there is a right to do it, especially at any age.

If parents are legally responsible for a child (lets say that is 17 and younger), then parents should have the law backing them up in keeping their child from fornicating. If a 17 or 18-year-old guy is having sex with my 14-year-old daughter, I should be able to get some help from the law in keeping him from my daughter, for whom I am legally responsible. His parents may not care, but I do.

Yes, there are inconsistencies across the country. No, I don't think a statutory "rapist" who is 17 or 18 should be placed in the same category as a stranger who rapes a woman at gunpoint.

But as libertarian as I can be, there are times when it is appropriate for the law to restrain some behaviors, especially towards children.

Not true
Happy Jake:

You never heard of the Wilson case in Georgia then. A high school student convicted of having consentual sex with another high school student and sent to jail for child molestation for 10 years. Finally the state Supreme Court overturned his conviction and there are stories all over the place like this.

The mom who was forced to move out of her house because when she was 17 she had consentual oral sex with a classmate and was forced to register as a sex offender and had to move because of a stupid law that made sex offenders move if they lived with 500 feet of a bus stop.

And on and on and on.


Moral Consensus Comes Before Laws
The obvious conundrm that people see is a)Many parents have no problem with thier 15 or 16 year old children having sex (that is as long as they practice "safe sex" b)Why criminalize behavior that they see as normal. There are plenty of stories about parents allowing thier children to sleep over with thier partners, or getting thier daughters on birth control.

Yet, I'm not so sure these same parents would want thier children sleeping with someone 20 years older, or being allowed to "swing" with multiple partners. The problem is once you've lowered the age of consent you invite this kind of social pathology. In most cases, both parent's work, and have no idea what thier teen children are up to between 3:00PM and 6:00PM. They've essientially given into the pop culture, and allow agenda driven sex educators educate thier children. It is not surprising in the least to find out most teens are not virgins, and 25% have some kind of STDs. It is also not surprising that nearly 20,000 complaints are filed each year against teachers who have slept with thier students.

Stossel is correct. It is ludicrous to enforce a law which is primairily up to the parents to enforce. If the parents cannot agree, why have the law? But, these same people should not complain when they find out thier 14 year old daughter is knocked up by a 25 year old.

In the olden days

I remember the First Sergeant someplace, I don’t remember where, but it was nearly 65 years ago, gave a little speech as a bunch of us were getting ready to go to town on a weekend pass.

He said, but did not say he would recommend, that, “If they can pee and hit the ground, they're old enough.”

Before that, in Akron I worked in a rubber warehouse, that was next door to a condom manufacturing plant. The ladies would open the window, wave a handful of their product, and holler for testers.


vipertrunk
How does your age bracket suggestion "fix" the CONSENT part of the problem? I didn't see any lower limits in your suggestion either, so presumeably a pubescent 13 year old could legally have "consensual" sex with a prepubescent 11 year old. You can't possibly be suggesting that, can you? And if not, then what is lowest age limit at which a person CAN consent? The problem is that once you say a 13 year old (for example) can consent to sex, then the age of the second party becomes COMPLETELY irrelevant. THAT is entirely the problem. Let me give you a parallel example. Several states have recently ruled seperately on the ability of middle teens (15 was the youngest I believe) to make their own medical decisions regarding (i.e. consent to) serious or life-threatening procedures and treatments. But how ridiculous would it have been if the court ruled that the teens could consent to a liver transplant but not a lung transplant, or only neurosurgeons could receive consent and not cardiologists. That is EXACTLY what Romeo & Juliet laws, age brackets, and any other indefinite standards do to the concept of consent, in this case sexual. Ability to consent is an absolute and can't be qualified, either a person is fully able or not. Age brackets are a product of sentiments that have already been expressed in several posts, namely the creepiness factor many feel regarding large age differences. And last I checked, we don't outlaw things just because they make us feel weird.

Age of consent?
I really believe that the age of consent should be left to the parents. However, the real problem is with the parents now. When I was growing up I was told in no uncertain terms what the law was and what the consequences were (the consquences now are much more severe). Parents need to inform their children of the age of consent laws. It's not too difficult to call the local police station to get the age.

Whether you agree with the law or not, you are responsible to inform your children of the law.


This didn't become an issue
... until these unfortunate young men were put into a generic "sex offender" database that then pursues them for the rest of their lives.

It is THAT, that they don't deserve. I believe it is possible to designate an age of consent, but not require that EVERYONE over that age who has sex with someone under that age be called a "sex offender," and lumped with violent rapists and pedophiles, for the rest of his life.

Folks, it IS different for a 19-year-old male to have sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend, as opposed to a male of any age forcibly raping a woman of any age, or a male of any age preying on prepubescent children. The latter men are doing things the public should be warned about. The former is something for the teenagers' families to deal with, and is normal if not desirable behavior. If a family with a 19-year-old male moves into your neighborhood, and you have a 16-year-old daughter, you don't need a warning from the police to recognize what possibilities have been generated thereby: you just need common sense.

The problem here is not that we have an age of consent, it's that we put young men who did normal teenage things into an undifferentiated sex offender database that ruins their lives. We should be able to distinguish in law between a teenager with a girlfriend (or even just a teenager in the vulnerable social situations parents too often let their kids get into), and a violent rapist or pedophile. That we don't make that distinction, today, IS wrong. Stossel is doing a service to point that out.

for maurice493
maurice493 writes: "Need I say it again? Draconian zero-tolerance laws like those currently in existence do not allow for a judge to do his job and, yes, judge whether or not there is criminal (say it with me now) intent. We're getting to the point where the courts may as well be Verdict-O-Mats... input some data, punch a few buttons... ding! Out pops the sentence!"

BINGO!
I AGREE 100%!

You can't use more and more legislation as a substitute for a judge's common sense, experience, and good judgment.

This isn't even limited to sex-related topics.

Some of the more extreme social conservatives are trying to get Congress to pass a ban on Internet online gambling. They want to make it ILLEGAL for you to play poker on your own computer.

And of course, the Justice Department still tries to go after cancer patients who use marijuana to relieve their pain. (Cancer patients are often prescribed morphine, which is even stronger and more addictive than marijuana, yet the law allows that but not marijuana.) Does someone with terminal cancer need to be protected from "gateway drugs"???

And with liberals, it's speech codes and bans on so-called "hate speech" and fattening foods like hamburgers and soft drinks that they want banned.

There seems to be this attitude among some people, some of them conservative, some of them liberal, that anything that offends their personal moral code has to be BANNED.

I say that's un-American.

maurice493
AMEN!

SteveL
A friendly amendment:

My wife is a hospice nurse. She occasionally administers cannabinol, which is the IV version of marijuana, when morphine doesn't work. So, the DEA will actually allow the drug in question, it just has to be monitored by big brother, and it can't be smoked. No profit for the pharmaceutical companies and much harder to regulate if we allowed smoking of a drug that would grow freely in our back yards if it weren't on the list of forbidden home remedies. We can't have that.

This is a topic that can be ...
difficult for Christian libertarians. While I believe, and have taught my children, that sex should be saved for the marital relationship, I also realize that not all of society has the same tenets of faith that I do. I, for one, do not think that Biblical sin necessarily makes for good legislation in a free society.

I think it's absolutely horrible that an 18 year old who has sex with his 16 year old girl friend will spend the rest of his life being considered a sexual predator. It makes a mockery of the child sex offender registry.

Let's add some reasonableness to our laws instead of using them to play "gotcha".

Laws Can't Prevent Sex with minors......
John Stossel: For the most part I enjoy watching the reports you do, but as with so many reporters and thousands of you so called `Christians' out there. You have no Idea as to what the hell is going on, in society, TV, Morals and living.
We permitted years ago, to allow a limit on approved marriage age. First 13, because the female needed to be old enough to breed offspring for the husband. Then it went to 14, then 16, then 18 and some do not want it to be allowed until 21. But did we change the genetic urges to have sex or those that trigger them. NO WE DID THE OPPOSIT.
We indulge our children with make up and fashion clothes only fit for an adult. We make movies and TV specials about sex. We constantly tell the young female she has to eat this, buy that wear this, look like this, etc. etc. or die the unthinkable death of being out of it. Same for boys, and we immortalize these sexual acts in films like Porkies, Pretty in pink, American Pie, The revenge of the Nerds, and of course Animal House.
We allow clothiers like Abercrombies, The Gap, Aerostatole, Sears, Pennies, Macy's and Neimann-Marcus, Rut 21, Banana Republic, etc. to dress our youth as whores and sluts, just ready for the plucking.
We pump them up and then say NO, so when did you listen to your parents last.
Our laws are insane too. If the male is older he is a rapist and gets labeled, if a female, she gets page one news and a book or movie deal.
The law says the eldest should be wise enough to control the situation, how many parents melt when their lovely child smiles at them and gives in on everything. REMEMBER THIS, OTHERS WILL DO THIS TOO EVEN IF ITS WRONG? SO BEING OLDER DOES NOT CHANGE A THING, Love and sex go together more than we want to admit. Many lovesex to much and that is a problem greated by US.

Laws Can't Prevent Sex with minors......
We as a group, have allowed all that is around us promoting sex and children as sexy in their clothes. So WE created the Pedophile and WE condemn them with felonies and long sentances, so why not condemn US and our children for sparking their love of Sex.
I believe that Pedophiles should all die, but lets not label everyone with them because we are not them, we just created them

Sure you do
Until the SCOTUS over turned two parts of the Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 in Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition (2002). The law made it illegal to create "virtual" images that depicted children in sexual situations and banned legal adults who appeared to be children to be seen in sexual situations. The court ruled that these would have an unconstitutional impact on free speech and since no real children were involved the government had no compelling interest in making this illegal.

The only reason was the "ewww gross" factor involved and that was not good enough for at least 6 of the Justices.

"jail bait" laws
It used to be that all parents taught their boys about "jail bait" laws. As in, if you have sex with a girl under the legal age for consent you can do 20 years for statutory rape. Did it stop them? No. Why? Because the laws were not enforced and they knew it. So, if it's no big deal to have sex with a 16 or 17 year old it's no big deal to have sex with a 14 or 15 year old. And it goes on and on.

The family that moved in behind my property is a 40 year old man, his 12 year old wife, and their 1 year old son.

Three houses north lived a family that is now destroyed. The nine year old girl was preyed upon by both her father and her 15 year old brother. The males were both prosecuted and put on the sex registry. The little girl was put into a group home. Later, classified as a problem child, she was moved to a home for juvenile delinquents.

Both situations make me want to vomit.

Teach your daughters to like themselves enough to tell the boy not only no, but hell no. My grandmother taught me that saying no has nothing to do with being a "good girl". Saying no has to do with being a "smart girl". When it comes to the "consequences" of sex, it's the female that pays. Therefore, you don't have sex if the male in question isn't worth the rest of your life. Being a single mother, getting an std, or both, takes the rest of your life. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

Somethng else my grandmother taught me turned out to be the most important. If the male will not listen when you say no, fight. More importantly, let him know you will fight. Let him know you will leave enough marks on him and he will have to leave enough marks on you that only the blind will not know what happened. Surprisingly, the male of the species can control themselves when there are consequences they can not avoid.

careful what you wish for...
be careful about wishing all "Biblically" based laws removed. be careful about consigning them all to the same category at Islamic extremists. I think you would be sadly surprised if all of these Biblically-based laws were to be repealed tomorrow. That would leave us with what? Tax laws and McCain-Feingold??? Those pernicious little 10 commandments cover a lot of area - (and not even GWB tried to codify the first couple, which really trashes the "theocracy" argument).
Anyway, just be careful about what you decide to toss out with the bathwater...

Common sense - do we still have any?
I agree with John Stossel. It's insanity to put teenage boys on sexual predator lists, simply because they had consensual sex with a girl near their own age.

There was a case in Michigan a few years ago in which a 14-year-old girl filled several notebooks with details of her sexual adventures and fantasies. She documented her seduction, as well as plans for such, of several boys who were not much older than she. One was described as very shy and geeky; she thought it would be a challenge to "hook up" with him. With some, she claimed to be older than she was.

Her father found the notebooks and took them to the Oakland County prosecutor. Of course, the girl got off with no punishment; the boys were surprised with criminal prosecutions.

There were plea deals made which would have kept four of the boys off the sexual predator list. Then, a couple of years later, the state attorney general overturned that agreement and the boys were notified they'd be on the sexual predator list for the next 23 years. One committed suicide shortly thereafter.

The predatory girl is probably still happily whoring it up somewhere in the metro Detroit area.I know some will say she was only 14. If you'd read the excerpts of those diaries as published in the paper (her identity was kept secret), though, you'd think differently.

Common sense - do we still have any?
I agree with John Stossel. It's insanity to put teenage boys on sexual predator lists, simply because they had consensual sex with a girl near their own age.

There was a case in Michigan a few years ago in which a 14-year-old girl filled several notebooks with details of her sexual adventures and fantasies. She documented her seduction, as well as plans for such, of several boys who were not much older than she. One was described as very shy and geeky; she thought it would be a challenge to "hook up" with him. With some, she claimed to be older than she was.

Her father found the notebooks and took them to the Oakland County prosecutor. Of course, the girl got off with no punishment; the boys were surprised with criminal prosecutions.

There were plea deals made which would have kept four of the boys off the sexual predator list. Then, a couple of years later, the state attorney general overturned that agreement and the boys were notified they'd be on the sexual predator list for the next 23 years. One committed suicide shortly thereafter.

The predatory girl is probably still happily whoring it up somewhere in the metro Detroit area.I know some will say she was only 14. If you'd read the excerpts of those diaries as published in the paper (her identity was kept secret), though, you'd think differently.

Here is a simple question.

What harms society more, smoking tobacco or sex outside of marriage?

Here is another one, not wearing seat belts or sex outside of marriage?

How about this, smoking marijuana or sex outside of marriage?

How about this, driving over the speed limit or sex outside of marriage?

How about this, unauthorized immigration or sex outside of marriage?

Get real people!!! Sex outside of marriage is the single most damaging activity occurring in our society today. Just because you may have or are now engaging in such activities neither justifies them nor does it change the facts.

Sex and the Young
Two things: First, I used to know a woman who had a beautiful 14 year old daughter. The girl was asked by a 16 year old boy to come to a meeting with him when he was getting an award. She had my wife make the girl a very nice low cut dress - and was definate that it had to be low cut.

When the girl tried it on, I happened to be there. She looked very nice in it except that she definately showed much of her breasts. Her mother's comment? "That looks great! He will have a hard time keeping his hands off you now. You'll have a good time tonight!"

I also know of two 5 year olds that engaged in sex. Their siblings got it started but once it started they would sneak off alone all the time despite punishment. Does that make them both sex offenders?

Yes
And when do you start planning on jailing Daoists, Shintos and the like for having idols and worshipping not your jealous god.

Oh and I think laws based on protection of life, liberty and property work quite nice without having to bring in laws based on mythology--yes to those who don't believe, your Bible is pure myth--just like ours are pure myth to you.

Oh and for the State of Georgia, can you please let us buy beer on Sunday and tell those that keep that commandment that if they want to keep it holy, they don't have to buy beer on Sunday or anyday for that matter, but for others, we might like to buy a beer or two--why do we have to look like a bunch of dumb rednecks all the time?


Laws tell citizens what behaviors

are acceptable.

Eddie Too
Just exactly how do any of those offenses besides speeding and illegally immigrating harm society? If someone else smokes tobacco or marijuana, how are you personally harmed? If someone else has sex outside their (and your) marriage, how are you harmed? If someone chooses not to wear his seatbelt (or motorcycle helmet) how are you harmed? (We might advocate the last one; the list of organ donors is far too short.)

Consequences: as real as can be
When each of my children was starting to think about dating, the sit-down included the abstinence discussion and thorough explanations of the consequences of rejecting abstinence.

That included disease, parenthood, getting into a relationship not ready for, not putting ones trust in someone else's understanding of birth control, as well as info about age of consent and statutory rape.

It would have been unfair to send them out in the world unequipped with that little tidbit.

rlaTEXAS
I don't think anyone here is seriously talking about removing ALL biblically based laws. Murder, theft, perjury... these are all unambiguously in the realm of legitimate governmental regulation.

But trying to regulate consensual adultery among people who are biologically adult is a fool's errand. There is no good, fair, or clean line of demarcation. What's the difference between a girl 17 years, 364 days old and 18 years old? Realistically speaking, none at all. Legally speaking, prison, probation, and a lifetime on a legally sanctioned blacklist. That's not justice; it's legalism at its worst.

The law should protect children (i.e., those who have not reached sexual maturity) from sexual exploitation. It's important to remember, though, that statutory rape is just that: statutory. It does not resemble actual rape--a heinous offense that should be prosecuted fully and condemned by law.

When we're dealing with sexually mature persons, of any age, it's important to remember that people WILL have sex. We should be very careful about condemning people to a lifetime of legal sanctions just because we find their actions immoral, weird, or creepy.

Yes they do
But do you want to live in a regime micromanages your life? The US is already tyrantical enough for my tastes. If you want to live in such a soceity Eddie, Saudi Arabia Airlines is ready when you are.

I should be on a list somewhere
I'm not sure what the laws were when I was having my first encounter, but I would be a felon in today's world (with a life sentence on some list). The love I felt then was as real as any since, and no law would have changed me, her or our sexual feelings. I was aware of the consequences and used a condom, but, in hindsight, I was not "mature" in any emotional measure.

As an adult, I would advise my younger self to wait. But, my memories tell me I would not have listened.

The point? We will never convince our children they should ignore their feelings, "plan," and wait until some arbitrary maturity date. The best we can do is try for legal guidelines (age, age difference, etc.) and leave more latitude to the judge to weigh the circumstances. The law does a poor job of defining the limits of emotion and intent, but a human being or jury should certainly be allowed to measure context.

And, of course, parents should take a strong and consistent stand.

Finally, sex offender lists are a life sentence we apply to no other crime. Even paroled killers are treated better. Have we proven this "feel good" measure has reduced sex crimes at all? I would like to see whether this extreme punishment has proven fruitful and, if not, end it.

number44
I'm ignorant? Not likely. But I'm confused. Are we to believe that our laws against murder, taken from the law of Moses, are not to be imposed upon our citizens? How about our laws against stealing? Shall we obligate the citizens to obey those laws? They find their origin, again, in the law of Moses. Your thesis does not stand up to the tests of logical soundness. Is this due to ignorance or is it some other failing? H-m-m-m?

Sorry to double post...
but this just wouldn't fit.

Read "The Hamlet" by William Faulkner. One of the characters, Eula Varner, reaches sexual maturity at an incredibly early age. She learns at an early (most would say too early) age the power her sexualized appearance gives her over men; she becomes promiscuous shockingly early.

When she becomes pregnant as a teenager, her brother vows revenge on the man who would take advantage of such a young girl. Eula's father, however, is more sensible. Other women, with the same number of years of sexual maturity, would be considered old maids. "What did you expect," her father exclaims, "that she would spend the rest of her life just running water through it!"

Yet it seems to me that many people on this board really do expect sexually mature adults to "just run water through it" for ten or more years until they are married. A noble sentiment, to be sure, but an unrealistic one, and one that does not need to reinforced under penalty of law.

A lot of people have
made a comment along the lines of "Where were his/her parents"

If I remember correctly, Stossel's first article was about a young couple in love. What was kind of glossed over was HOW the couple got into "trouble" in the first place.

The mother was aware of the nature of the relationship between her 15 year old daughter, and the 19 year old guy. She did not really seem to be concerned that the relationship was sexual. She was only concerned with how her daughter was intereacting with her. She only reported the case to the police as leverage to threaten the daughter and extract better behaviour, and wanted to drop charges the next day.

In a case like this it seems clear that the mother should have faced charges as well as the guy, or neither. The mother was complicit in the relationship in that she did not have a problem with the relationship. She even got her daughter birth control pills.

If a parent wants to have a guy procecuted for Stat. Rape, then their actions should back up the charge, or face a charge themselves.

tedmug
You might google "Hammurabi." The code attributed to him dates between 1800 BC and 1700 BC. The laws of Moses are believed to be set down about 1400 BC. You will find a striking similarity in some of these laws. The idea that the proscriptions found in the Laws of Moses first occurred to mankind 1400 years ago when DNA evidence suggests we're substantially older, is just not credible. Even if you subscribe to the idea that the world is only 6000 years old, you cannot seriously believe that early man had no social contract by which he survived until Moses appeared.

Correction
3400 years ago.

puftwaffe writes:
vipertrunk
How does your age bracket suggestion "fix" the CONSENT part of the problem? I didn't see any lower limits in your suggestion either, so presumeably a pubescent 13 year old could legally have "consensual" sex with a prepubescent 11 year old. You can't possibly be suggesting that, can you? And if not, then what is lowest age limit at which a person CAN consent?

I wasn't proposing age brackets as a "fix" for the problem you described. I think the "fix" is that parents should teach their children right from wrong IAW their own beliefs. It just seems stupid to me that a 16 1/2 year old would be a sex offender for the rest of his(her) life for having consentual sex with a 15 1/2 year old.

What age would I set as the bottom limit? I don't know; I wouldn't presume to tell other persons how to raise their own children. Why would you trust the government to protect your children from sex outside of wedlock? What makes you think they are competent enough to do so?

tedmug: read before you post
I addressed exactly your questions of 2:03 pm, EST (re: Laws of Moses) at exactly 1:58 pm, EST. It's possible you were typing at the same time I was, and I'm definitely not going to re-post my comments, but read them and you'll see (if not agree with) where I'm coming from.

Akagi,

I see you are unaware of the problems society faces from unwanted children and single parent homes. This is America's greatest poverty. Just because you or others cannot control themselves does not justify ignoring socially damaging behaviors.

As I said before, laws are used to tell citizens what behaviors are acceptable.

Sex outside of marriage may be a moral issue for you, but for me it is a question of what behaviors should be allowed if we are to have a well-ordered and productive society.

Sex outside of marriage produces anger, chaos, and children who are byproducts not children who are loved and well-adjusted.

ModMark,

whatever your reaction, sex outside of marriage is still the single most damaging activity occurring in our society. If the law is not going to support a well-ordered and stable society, it is not worth the paper it is written on.

Laws tell citizens what behaviors are acceptable.
If people want sex outside of marriage to be legal, then come out and say it. Then they should add, consequences be damned.

The most ignorant or stupid assertion
made so far in the discussion of this article is that being made by those who claim that people cannot control their sexual urges. Certainly, people do not want to control their sexual urges.
However, it the consequences to not controlling them are significant enough they will somehow find the willpower necessary.

vipertrunk
I never said I trusted the government to protect anyone's children. But there are only two alternatives, no (legal) standards at all or an arbitrary bright line. Based on your post, you seem to be of the opinion that parents should be enforcing their own standards without aid of legal guidelines. So, it would not be ILLEGAL to have sex with a 5 year old if someone can somehow manage to bypass parental security? I know you are not saying that there is nothing wrong with that, but it is the reality of removing legal peril from crimes against children. There is no question that bright lines for any age related behavior are imperfect as people mature at varying rates based on countless factors. All age standards should be as low as possible in order to allow more individual freedom while at the same time being high enough to protect those not ready to exercise that very freedom. I don't know that I could select any age of consent that I felt would accomplish both of those ideals. But I DO know that multiple variable standards are illogical and unconstitutional (as we will see shortly).

ModMark,

to educate you, Christians do not teach that God had sex with Mary. Christians teach that Mary never lost her virginity. I hope this alleviates some of your confusion on the subject.
If not, at least other readers will know that you are completely ignorant of Christian teaching in this area and that your words are completely wrong on the subject.

There is no right to perform actions

that damage the common good.

Galltegfa, number44, maurice493, SteveL
good posts all. Too many conservatives are the same knee jerk, oughta be a law, reactionaries as liberals usually are. Can we not disapprove of certain behaviors without codifying it with state imposed punishments? Jeez Louise. This is the mentality that has been driving this country down the path to totalitarianism. The left wants to manage every facet of our economic lives and the right wants to manage everything else. Somedays it seems there are only a few left that truly believe in the dream of our founding fathers, a free people with rights secured by a government to be feared and allowed to follow their conscience.

Galltegfa wrote, "justice is not served by confusing the acts of consenting sexually active people who happen to be arbitrarily under age with those of sexual predators"

Someone else stated they wanted the government to back them up as a parent. WRONG. That mentality is the problem. The parent cannot be a victim of an act perpetrated by a child. If your child does something you strongly disagree with, you do not have the right to take my money to prosecute and incarcerate his/her partner. You might want to have a long talk with them but, leave me the he*l out of it.

Emancipated Minors
So if a pregnant 14 year-old girl can concent to an abortion without involving the parents, why can a 16 year old girl consent to having sex?

Eddie Too
You forgot to attribute your quote:

"There is no right to perform actions that damage the common good."

Was that Marx or Lenin or Mao or Castro?

Sorry, Eddie, it's not always about sex
"People" may be able to control their sexual urges... especially adults. And adults preying on children for sexual gratification are clearly wrong, clearly against the law and would be clearly seen by a judge and jury.

The difficult area we argue about is for those struggling with a deep (and maybe new) emotional relationship. How do we handle young people close in age who are sharing their love?

No doubt we should teach, advise, help, equip and do every other adult and caring thing to prepare our children to deal with these difficult and strong feelings, but should we punish?

Your "factual" statement that people should and can control their emotionally-driven sexual urges has been disproven throughout human history. In fact, people who believe as you do tend to write the laws we are debating now.

Mr. Stossel's horror stories are about people caught in the margins of law that are unduly punished. If judges and juries are allowed to "judge" rather than simply administer, maybe we'd have a more humane result.

Another rationalizer...
Modmark writes:My sex life before marriage tended to meet a person and develop a relationship. Once we began sexual activities, I was quite faithful to her.

Driving a car on the Long Island expressway is far more dangerous than my early sex life.

Certainly having many partners increases your risk but it is possible to have a relative safe sex life before marriage.

Mark, may you have MANY MANY daughters. Then, continue to rationalize your hedonism.

eddie too
writes, "but for me it is a question of what behaviors should be allowed if we are to have a well-ordered and productive society."

Spoken like a true tyrant. Ya, it's good to be the King. What if your definition of well ordered conflicts with that of the other 300 million of us? You sir are the problem with this country. You think as long as you convince a simple majority of your views that it gives you the right to codify into law anything you want. Our courts were designed to be a check against this but, they have let us down terribly. At this point, virtually every new law or regulation passed is another nail in the coffin of this republic.

"The more corrupt the republic, the more numerous the laws" Tacitus



RockyMtnRick,

I pretty much agree that the discussion (on any law) should center around the affect a behavior has on society as a whole. The more damaging a behavior's affect on society the more significant the consequences to the actor. I also recognize that my viewpoint is not that of most politicians. It still is the best way to address making laws.

Hitchhiker
Thanks. That is why I joined the Libertarian Party after Bush I threw in with the Moral Majority. I cannot in good conscience vote for anyone who is determined to saddle the rest of us with his or her version of morality.

As you say, the liberals think they know best how to finance a "fair" society (steal from the rich and corral the poor), and the conservatives think they know best how we should conduct ourselves in our private affairs. And I want none of it. I want a strong defense, a free market where I can compete fairly, and access to judicial review. Period. In the meantime, I also support the FairTax.

puftwaffe writes:
"I never said I trusted the government to protect anyone's children. But there are only two alternatives, no (legal) standards at all or an arbitrary bright line. Based on your post, you seem to be of the opinion that parents should be enforcing their own standards without aid of legal guidelines. So, it would not be ILLEGAL to have sex with a 5 year old if someone can somehow manage to bypass parental security?"

I think we aren't that far apart on this issue. However, I don't see anyone "bypassing" my parents - or anyone elses parents - for carnal knowledge with a 5 year old. (Unless they are in on it.) If the parents are pimping out their 5-year old, I'm sure there is due process to remove the children from the parents care for abuse.

If communities want to set a line in the sand, fine. I just think they should consider tempering that line with an age bracket. If that means the age is higher than it otherwise might have been - to accomodate the bracket - so be it.

Ultimately, the government will never protect our children (or us) from (criminal) harm. They will run the rape kit or bag the body, but everything else is up to us. All the laws in the world aren't going to protect children from predators nor are they going to stop teenagers from having sex.

Maybe your double standard!
Modmark...speak for yourself. The powerful have always abused their power, but it may come as a shock to you that millions of us have successfully maintained marriages even decades long. We do not have to apologize for or justify our pasts and our children fall into the OTHER 75%.

We have this problem because
there are far too many parents with the attitude that handing out condoms is better than their daughters coming home pregnant. This is not parenting it's the abdication of parenting to the schools.

The reason so many parents say that you can't stop them is because they did the same thing and think they will be hypocrites if they teach their children otherwise.

I teach my children that it is unaccetable for unmarried people to engage in acts of intimacy that could easily lead to sexual relations. When my oldest daughter asked about her mother and me I told her that it did not matter what we did. I have a duty to teach my children right from wrong and to provide them with the best possible tools for their own decision making. She shut right up.

Teaching your children what you learned from your own stupid acts does not make you a hypocrite, it makes you wiser than your teenagers.

Richard..RIGHT ON!!
Best post of the day...we as parents have the duty to protect our children and we cannot hide behind our own cognitive-dissonance. We were up-front, controlling, dogmatic parents and were unapologetic about our beliefs and our expectations. Two of our three are happy adults that have continued our values and our 16 y/o is a member of the same team. The values that she will bring to her marriage will serve her and her husband all of their lives. Nobody wants to buy a used pair of shoes...

Libertarians all
Many would consider me a libertarian. Others would not. Whatever. Somebody mentioned that social contracts precede the Ten Commandments and that the Ten Commandments are therefore nothing special. This misses the point that the Ten Commandments are not a social contract between men in that sense and never were. Social contract is such an illusory term anyway. Who enforces the contract? Who composes the contract? Why should anyone, especially libertarians, live up to the contract if they do not agree with it. That is the reason for being among libertarians in the first place. "Don't tell me what to do!" I am all for that as long as I am living within the law of God. The Bible speaks of a time when all men were a law unto themselves. The Decalogue, not the code of Hammurabi is the basis for our law. The poster who suggested that I Google Hammurabi made me laugh. That is hardly necessary. I studied and remember Hammurabi from the fourth grade and that was fifty years ago. As long as we are in a pissing contest about chronology, the law of the patriarchs has been with us from the beginning of time which by my quick calculations would precede Hammurabi and his code.

ModMark
2.7 decades here, but with your "libertarian" or is it "libertine"? orientation, how many lives have you damaged to satiate yourself. Again, may you have many daughters.

eddie too, rockymtnmick
I cannot disagree more fervently that laws should be made based on the societal effect of the action in question.

While this is, of course, a good starting point, simply because an action has detrimental effects does not mean it should be outlawed.

Case in point: Prohibition and the War on Drugs. Both were enormous, expensive boondoggles that--instead of curing one problem--created and exacerbated many more. The price of freedom is that you tolerate behavior in others that you do not endorse while others do the same for you.

It should be painfully obvious to the social conservatives pining for the moral climate of the 1950's (myself included) that we are in a hopeless minority. If you want the majority to tolerate us, we must tolerate them. If we try to impose our morals on them, we will legitimize any future attempts by them to do the same to us. And we WILL lose, because there are more of them.

Try to remember, just because other parents buy their 16 year olds birth control doesn't mean you have to buy BC for yours. Nobody's telling you how to raise your kids; for a change, try not telling other people how to raise theirs.

Eddie
I am old--well sort of--and married.

But I don't want the state arresting 17 year olds for banging their 14 year old GF.

I don't want the state arresting 22 year olds for banging their 17 yo GFs either.

One Age
Since the decision to have sex is the choice which has the most profound effect possible on a person's life then the age of consent must reflect the seriousness of the decision.

If a 14yo is deemed mature enough to consent to have sex with ANYONE then he or she MUST be considered old enough to marry, old enough to drive, old enough to drink, old enough to leave school and get a job, old enough to join the military, old enough to face the criminal justice system as an adult (including facing execution for capital crimes), old enough to sign binding contracts, and old enough to vote.

If a 14yo is not old enough for those things they a 14yo is not old enough to consent to sex regardless of the age of his/her chosen partner.

ModMark
I have voted Libertarian in all but the last election (I believe we should finish what we started in Iraq) since '92, and I will vote Libertarian this time without reservation. Some may say it is wasting my vote, but I see it as voting "None of the Above." And yes, perhaps it sends a message, but seeing how Libertarians on TH are generally received - I think we're viewed by "conservatives" here as the Uncle Fester of the right - I'm not counting on my Libertarian vote sending a message any more. At least I have a place to cast my vote where I feel my beliefs are best represented.

Mother of 4
It seems, as usual, that you are missing the point.

It's worth noting that until relatively recently in American history (about the 1930's), 14 year olds were considered old/mature enough to do ALL of those things. Most 14 year olds didn't, of course, but they could, depending on their parents. Today, I know middle-age adults who aren't mature enough to really make any of those decisions.

So the question becomes, how do you set an arbitrary line--be it at 14, 16, 18, or 40--without unfairly impinging on those who are mature enough? (Hint: trick question.) You can't. So, in my estimation, if you can't make a fair law, you don't make one at all.

I don't know why I'm talking to you about this, though. I've read enough of your motherly posts (in this context, I mean that word is pejorative) to know that when you say "There oughta be a law," you mean it, consequences be damned.

Tedmug
Hammurabi is said to be the first code that was WRITTEN down. And it predates Moses, and there is no proof that God gave Moses anything that He didn't give Hammurabi. The Bible is a sacred text to some and not so sacred to others. Just because some take it as the one and only revelation of God doesn't make it so. There are plenty of religions and spiritual experiences that predate Moses, and most of them are pretty explicit about which acts please the deities and which ones don't. So, to suggest that murder and rape were okay with God or man before Moses was given the tablets is silly.

a little too late
great column. i wish it was written years ago, though, when Marcus Dixon and Genarlow Wilson were sitting in JAIL for having consentual sex with schoolmates. why is it that some of the same people who want the gov't staying out of our private lives have no problem with the gov't criminalizing private acts? i understand pedophile laws, but no way should there be laws against sex between teens. leave that to the parents.

Yes, Gov't Should Back Parent Authority
"Someone else stated they wanted the government to back them up as a parent. WRONG. That mentality is the problem. The parent cannot be a victim of an act perpetrated by a child."

What? You mean to tell me that if someone else's child (or even my own) shoots me unprovoked, I'm not a victim? Yes, the law should 1) honor parental authority over children by not interfering in parenting unless their is material neglect or abuse; 2) backing up my desire to prevent/punish someone else from fornicating with my child, who is too young to consent to fornication.

"If your child does something you strongly disagree with, you do not have the right to take my money to prosecute and incarcerate his/her partner. You might want to have a long talk with them but, leave me the he*l out of it"

I'll agree to leave you out of it if you'll be consistent and stay out of it when I defend my daughter with a shotgun or when I refuse to support her any longer even though she is only 14 if she refuses to abide by my rules. After all, I am going to be impacted if she gets pregnant or sick, and responsible for taking care of her, right?

That's part of the problem with this discussion. We don't live in a libertarian society. As long as my paycheck is being raided to pay for children born to unmarried/teen mothers, and for health care for STDs, then I am going to be more interested in maintaining "consent" laws when it comes to fornication. As long as I'm legally and financially responsible for my child until she is 18, then I expect the law to help me protect her and back up my authority.

Actually
Mother of 4:

It was quite common in the US for girls 13,14 snd 15 to marry only 120 or so years ago or less. The reason you had a numbe of "Last Confederate Widows" living into the 1980s (120 years after the war) was they married old men--those in their 40s and 50s as they in their early teens.

So the society then felt they were mature enough to get married. I think Alabama allows marriage as young as 14 or 13.

Oh and any man that wants to marry a 13 year old should be allowed to because that punishment would be far worse than any punishment in jail. As they say sooner or later you got to talk to them and I can't imagine having a deep conversation among equals with a 13 year old. Talk about a violation of the 8th Amendment. You wouldn't be allowed to use this on Al Qaeda.

"Well like...I went to the store and like it was so crowded and like.." Ahhhh!!!!!!!!!

The answer is obvious
" This raises many questions, among them: What is the right age of consent?"

The wedding night.

" For "20/20" I spoke to an 18-year-old boy who had sexual relations with a girl four years younger. Isn't that taking advantage of a 14-year-old? I asked.

"I wouldn't think so. I thought I was really gonna have a relationship."

You're actually asking an 18 year old BOY questions of policy? Why not ask a crack addict about questions of drug policy?

" Some states created exemptions to their statutory rape laws for kids who are close in age. They're called "Romeo and Juliet" exemptions because Romeo and Juliet were close in age. But I bet the legislators would be surprised to learn that Shakespeare's Juliet was only 13."

Okay, let's play the liberal's child game: would you propose we adopt ALL the social policies of that era? Marry 13 year old girls off to marriages arranged by the fathers? Hey, no more women in the workplace, there's an up side... and of course no sufferage for females either. And they wouldn't be allowed to wear pants, either.
And, of course, divorce was a rather permanent solution, for the wife. Ask Henry VIII.

Hey, I'm all for it. We solve the problem of underage sex by making girls marriageable as soon as they start to bleed, and having the fathers arrange the marriages so their based on something more than hormones or love.

Stossel, if you want to go bang a 14 year old, travel to one of the more decadent countries and do it. But stop trying to tear down ours.

When did
Yemen and Mexico join the U.S.?

" The legal age is different everywhere. In Yemen, it's 9, although you have to be married. In Mexico, you can legally have sex as early as 12. In the United States, the age varies by state, ranging from 16 to 18."

Who cares what they do in other countries? Let them marry their daughters off to mountain yaks at the age of 6. This isn't a philosophical question, it's a question as to what kind of society we want to live in.

One of the Family Reseach Council guys
states in this article, "Well, in some ancient cultures, it would have been perfectly appropriate for young people to marry and start a family as soon as their bodies were biologically ready for reproduction." (which was usually at 14, 15 years old) "But we live in a very different culture and young people today need more time before marriage, but they don't need sex before marriage."

-------------------------------------

The average age for marriage today is 25.1 years old (for women); and 26.8 years old (for men). The Family Research Council says that men should therefore wait until approximately age 27 (when they marry on average) before engaging in sex.

Even conservatively, nature made the human body ready for sex at 15, 16 years old. Is is "moral" & right to tell young adults to fight this feeling for 12 years, until marriage? Traditional society (before 1900) would have looked at you all like you were crazy.

Conservatives try to bash gays for "re-defining" marriage, but they see no problem with re-defining the age of sex. Rationally, if gays shouldn't get married on "traditional" grounds (has always been defined between a man & a woman), then kids should get married at 14 & 15, to preserve the "traditional" integrity of marriage. Don't want to mess with "tradition".

Romeo and Juliet
Keep in mind that Juliet was not only 13, Romeo was barely 14. In those days the young were married to the old. A 13 year old girl would marry a 40 year old man since he was settled and had an income to support her. By the same token, the 14 year old boy would be married to a 40 year old woman, partly for the same reason. That was one reason that affairs were so popular then. The young hunted the young.

SJ Doc
"'Did you really think we *want* those laws observed?' said Dr. Ferris. 'We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one *makes* them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be
much easier to deal with.'"

-- Ayn Rand"

Dammit man! I am FINALLY reading the book and this is the second spoiler I've tripped over. I knew I should've stopped the moment I read 'Dr. Ferris'

Galltegfa
writes, "I'm not counting on my Libertarian vote sending a message any more. At least I have a place to cast my vote where I feel my beliefs are best represented."

This may be the year. As one with strong libertarian leanings and having voted republican in every election but one since 1980, I will be voting libertarian this year and I think many more will be doing the same or Constitution Party or simply leaving the presidential race blank. I sincerely hope this year will be the Year of the Message. A strong one was sent in 92 with Perot and the message was lost in translation. This year will see no Perot, it appears so far, so the message will be more poignant. The party will not be able to ascribe it to another candidate but, rather the repudiation that it is and was.

The current political parties will never allow a third party to gain traction but, it sure would be nice to carve out a libertarian, constitutionalist or whatever party from the classical liberals, libertarian republican conservatives and like minded independents to if not win elections at least sway one party or the other more to our point of view. Let the purely social cons have the republican party and draw freedom loving folks from the democratic party enough to make them little more than the card carrying communists or a lobby for gay rights. Ah, what a dream.


Well, that would depend on his answer
wouldn't it?

modmark:
"But back to the point, he is a good kid and shall we label him a sex predator if someones daughter ask "you want a blow job"."

If he says, "No, thanks, I'm not qu33r.", then he's a good kid. If he says, "No, thanks, I thought better of you than that." He's a great kid. If he just says, "No, thanks.", he's still a good kid, but still needs worrying over.


45 caliber: "By the same token, the 14 year old boy would be married to a 40 year old woman, partly for the same reason. That was one reason that affairs were so popular then. The young hunted the young."

Where'd you learn this revisionist crap?
I won't dispute that a 40 year old woman might have been married to a 14 year old boy, but not so she could provide for him; the prosperity of his family gave her respectability and provided for her.
Affairs have always been popular, but have only been sanctioned during the decadent periods of societies.

IgoCommando - translation
To translate that passage: I (Ayne Rand) want to do whatever despicable thing i wish to do, and any attempt by the society of which I am a member to conform me to norms of conduct is part of an evil plot by the government to persecute me.

Teach Responsible Behavior
It is up to adults to set the limits and model positive behavior. It is up to lawmakers to reflect the morality and the values of their communities and their constituents. It is up to law enforcement to enforce the laws. It is up to parents and teachers to instruct children on what is and what is not acceptable, legal behavior. The problem with the baby boomer generation is that they have not set a good example and they have not parented well.

Nevertheless, abstinence education programs led to a 67-percent reduction in teen pregnancy from 1991 to 2001. This proves that if you teach abstaining from certain behavior, many young people will exhibit in their personal lives what they have learned from their elders.

We should ascend to higher goals rather than descend to lower goals. We will get what we deserve from our actions. Bottom line: aim high, save sex for marriage, avoid STDs and teen pregnancy. Most sexually active teenage boys are looking for a notch on their belt. Teen girls are looking for someone who cares about them -- and they will not find it from an immature boy who doesn't care about her and who is not ready to be a husband or a father. Most teen girls who have sex will have their hearts broken and will wish they had waited. This is the reality.

Don
You SEVERELY underestimate the number of predatory young girls out there by suggesting that it is only the boys out looking for casual sex. Your "reality" is several decades gone...

Make it easier for girls to say, "No."

Predatory girls make it hard for girls to have a boyfriend AND remain a virgin.

Anybody remember when an unmarried couple had to keep one foot on the floor at all times or else they were breaking the law?

By keeping the age of consent above 16, young girls can use it as a valid excuse not to have sex.

It is the rare girl who wants sex without a relationship attached.

Age of consent
We protect our young because they are not physically capable of making sound decisions about something as important as sexual activity. This fact is what is driving the judicial system to examine whether 16-17 year olds can be fully liable for crimes. From a recent article:
"The defense is focusing on the 'culpability of juveniles and whether their brains are as capable of impulse control, decision-making, and reasoning as adult brains are,' says law professor Steven Drizin of Northwestern University in Chicago. And some brain researchers answer with a resounding "no." The brain's frontal lobe, which exercises restraint over impulsive behavior, "doesn't begin to mature until 17 years of age," says neuroscientist Ruben Gur of the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. "The very part of the brain that is judged by the legal system process comes on board late."

Other questions…


‘This raises many questions, among them: What is the right age of consent?’ -John Stossel


John, among the questions you didn’t ask…

Why is age of consent becoming a problem? There is no law against doing what is right. Why are more young people engaged in lawlessness?

Is this an indictment against modern sex education; or an indictment against the vain philosophy behind today’s sex education? By modern I mean sexuality void of morality, and by vain philosophy I mean naturalism.

We might say that naturalism is being used to teach young people a lawless and immoral behavior. Its fruits are not only sexual immorality and perversion at earlier ages but increased violence and hopelessness as pointed out by Mr. Rohrbough, father of slain Columbine student Daniel Rohrbough…

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/02/freespeech/main20 57062.shtml


America’s public school youth as well as their parents have been robbed of the truth of who they are as image bearers of the Infinite and Personal I AM revealed in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

In past generations this knowledge provided a real remedy for the destructive behaviors associated with all the flavors of what has become known as self identity crisis. Without this knowledge the generations are left exposed and vulnerable to the destruction of vain philosophies.

To you who want to blame the parents. Do you not condemn the system by finding fault with its fruit? These parents you disparage are themselves products of the failed school system.

Grumpyette
Age of consent should not be "used" for ANYTHING other than being the most accurate reflection of the age at which the vast majority of young people are mature enough to make the decision to have sex. These "save it for marriage" posts have nothing to do with age of consent laws.

Marriage is the ideal
ModMark: There are literally thousands of social science statistics showing that marriage has an amazing umbrella of protections -- in every type of physical and mental health area one can imagine. A healthy marriage is the ideal to shoot for. Cohabitation and other forms of relationships are vastly inferior to marriage. That is the reality of social science research, but it is not the message of Hollywood, the media or the academic elite.

puftwaffe: I am not discounting predatory girls. I mentioned that a great many young girls are seeking someone who cares about them. How many teen boys want to date and bed a teen girl in the interests of starting a family? No, they want something to brag about in the locker room before football practice. Many girls who did not receive attention and affection from their father will look for it elsewhere, and they are vulnerable to male predators. Boys are not as powerless to resist girls' advances as vice-versa.

In this sexualized culture, boys and girls are vulnerable to peer pressure because healthy sexuality is not demonstrated by society, parents, schools, or many others. Thus, the tragedy of STDs, coercive abortions, girls dying from RU-486, ruined lives.

Statistically speaking …
Married people enjoy sex more than the unmarried and cohabiting

Married people are physically healthier than others

Married people are mentally healthier than others

Children born out of wedlock and their mothers are highly likely to experience higher levels of poverty than children living with their biological, married parents; 31 percent of children whose parents cohabit experience poverty, compared to 6 percent of children living with married, biological parents

Women in the U.S. and Canada who live with a boyfriend are 9 times more likely to be killed than a married woman

Marriage socializes men and makes them better fathers and better employees in the work place

Cohabiting women are 3.3 times more likely to cheat on their boyfriend than married women

Aggression is twice as likely among cohabiting couples than among married couples

Cohabitation has greatly increased worldwide in recent decades, with an accompanying major increase in child abuse

Cohabiters experience much higher rates of suicide than married people

Married people miss work less often than unmarried people

Cohabiters abuse drugs and alcohol far more than married people

Cohabiting couples self report lower levels of happiness and lower levels of sexual satisfaction than married people

Yes, marriage has a lot of benefits for individuals and for society, not to mention the taxpayers footing the bill for social agencies paying billions annually for welfare programs

To the poster who said “enjoy life before getting married,” the best way to enjoy life is TO BE MARRIED, statistically speaking. The reality of life is that substitutes for marriage and sexual relations before marriage bring about greater levels of unhappiness. Furthermore, married people live longer than their unmarried counterparts. Lowering the age of consent will only increase the human misery index.



Delusion
abounds on this forum today.

As probably one of the younger members on here, I can't help but notice how wildly some of these posts are out of step with reality.

First, to say that these laws are justified because they give an excuse for reticent teenage girls to say "no" is hopelessly outmoded. Today, sexual encounters are just as likely to be initiated the the female as the male. (As a college student, believe me when I say that out of the genuinely predatory people I know, most of them are women.) The "blushing bride" is dead. As women have started wearing pants, they have started wanting to notch their belts just as much as men.

Second, expecting people to wait for marriage, and punishing teenagers who don't, is also foolish. Marriage is a dying institution. Marriage rates in every state (except Georgia) have declined anywhere from 10-50% since 1990, despite a population increase of over 50 million (much of that made up by stable, marriage-valuing Mexicans). The percentage of the population that is married is down almost 25% since 1970. (Married people now make up just over half the population.) Abstinence until marriage is a nice ideal, but you can't put it forward as the only option and expect to be taken seriously. The numbers are against you.

A bad law is a bad law, no matter how well-intentioned it is. Come to think of it, good intentions frequently make laws worse.

Sex outside of marriage

is always damaging to the participants. Equally true, sex outside of marriage is always damaging to society.

The law cannot stop people from hurting themselves and society. The law does communicate to people what societies standards are.

Age of consent laws

were established to protect the young. If young people do not know the age of consent, it is the parents and schools who have failed the young.

Personally, I was taught the term jail bait (crude a term as it is) very early in my life. I certainly knew it before I could have violated an age of consent law.

Vast majority favor marriage
You can bet your bottom dollar that many of the women who wanted a notch in their belts are just as hurt and empty as the girls who were exploited by boys. The six girls who bore the college basketball star’s illegitimate children are not feeling like they won the jackpot. At the end of the evening (or morning), they are just as unrespected. If they were so satisfied and so fulfilled, they would not feel the compulsion to keep on being promiscuous. These kinds of people are addicts who can never get enough sex to fill their love cup. Nor can they find true fulfillment, respect or satisfaction in their lives. They hurt … and they hunger … and they do it again … and then they hurt and they hunger more.

No, marriage is not dead. It has taken some serious dents from no-fault divorce laws and a lack of respect by the mass media culture and lawmakers.

Ninety-eight percent of never-married survey respondents said they wanted to marry, and 88 percent said that marriage should be a lifelong commitment (in the year 2004).

ValiantForTruth tells us:
"America's public school youth as well as their parents have been robbed of the truth of who they are as image bearers of the Infinite and Personal. I AM revealed in the person and work of Jesus Christ."

Man, it just never stops, does it? I feel as if I'm on a woozy merry-go-round. All problems can be magically solved by our Lord Jesus Christ (everybody bow your head, please). I cannot stand on my own as a person; I have to be REVEALED through the person & work of Jesus Christ (bow your head please). Conversations always devolve into Christ worship. Magic, miracles & supernaturalism must be invoked to REVEAL our inner selves. Let us pray. Lay your healing hands on me. Eat this flesh. Drink this blood. Count the rosary beads. Pray to the patron saint of loss causes.

When are we going to finally grow up & fashion a politics based on rationalism & reason? Christians are, ultimately, just one more huckster snakeoil salesman at the carvival hocking their bill of goods.

Please don't eat the flesh & drink the blood. Join me in reality. please. The only "paradise" is here, now.

Majority want to be married
You can bet your bottom dollar that many of the women who wanted a notch in their belts are just as hurt and empty as the girls who were exploited by boys. The six girls who bore the college basketball star’s illegitimate children are not feeling like they won the jackpot. At the end of the evening (or morning), they are just as unrespected. If they were so satisfied and so fulfilled, they would not feel the compulsion to keep on being promiscuous. These kinds of people are addicts who can never get enough sex to fill their love cup. Nor can they find true fulfillment, respect or satisfaction in their lives. They hurt … and they hunger … and they do it again … and then they hurt and they hunger more.

No, marriage is not dead. It has taken some serious dents from no-fault divorce laws and a lack of respect by the mass media culture and lawmakers.

Ninety-eight percent of never-married survey respondents said they wanted to marry, and 88 percent said that marriage should be a lifelong commitment (in the year 2004).

Preps favor marriage
Asked to select their top two goals, a majority of Americans included a happy marriage as one of the choices. The No. 1 aspiration of high school seniors was “having a good marriage and family life.” The proportion of high school seniors calling marriage and family “extremely important” has risen over the last two decades. Even cohabiting couples cast an eye toward marriage, as they mistakenly view their domestic relationships as a precursor to a successful marriage. Numerous surveys showed that most young people continue to aspire to life-long marriage and not to the disposable marriages too often modeled by those trying to engineer social change.

Only 10 percent of Americans in an international survey agreed that “marriage is an out-dated institution,” compared to 26 percent in the United Kingdom and 36 percent in France. A majority of American high school seniors want to get married -- 82 percent of girls and 70 percent of boys agreeing that “having a good marriage and family life” is “extremely important” to them.


Don, I hope you're right
Don't get me wrong, the predatory women I know are for the most part desperately lonely, unhappy people. That's still not an excuse for maintaining arbitrary consent laws. (I guess I'm silly for thinking that misery and unfulfilment is punishment enough, without social conservatives begging the govt to pile on jail time.)

But I have never gone to school with these 82 percent of girls and 70 percent of boys. Like I said, I hope you're right, but American culture over the last 40-50 years has trended more along the European model than the Leave it to Beaver model.

Either way, that doesn't change the issue at hand, and that is that many of America's sex-crime laws--especially the sex crime registry--and age of consent laws are broken and in serious need of modernization.

Lastly, I would trust to reason and assume that people who say the age of consent should be "marriage" are joking--the average age of first marriage in the US is 26--but there have been some very foolish things said on here today, and I'm growing wary of the nanny-staters.

What age is o.k. for sex?
Men 18 and over should have to look at an ID to prove that the person they are having sex with is old enough. My opinion is if a guy is 18, he can only have sex with 16 - 18 year olds. If the man is over 18, he can only have sex with females over the age of 18. It should be enforcable with jail time punishment. No excuses.

Teenagers are not mature enough to understand all the emotional consequences of having sex.
Nor the physical or financial. Nor are they mature enough to realize that the behavior glorified by MTV and BET, etc., only produce poverty. Unless you are one of the entertainment moguls.

My daughter was stranger abducted at 14 by slick talking men who were going to 'help her', gang raped and prostituted. She was very tall, developed, and looked mature. Though if you talked to her, you knew she was an innocent child. These men were never prosecuted or served jail time, even though she was rescued from one of their homes and there was evidence at the motel where they kept her for a few days. Why? Because the police and the District attorney said they could not win, because the men all said that she TOLD them she was 18, so they thought it was o.k. She is still suffering 3 years later.

If you have to ask for ID for cigarettes, you should have to ask for one for sex, or go to jail.

If laws didn't effect people's behavior, we wouldn't have any. And all laws are someone's morality imposed on another. What morals will we choose for this argument of 'when is the right age for consensual sex'?

Stossel column on sexual predators
There are several dynamics at play in this article. One is the issue of how far you can bend a law before you've broken it. It seems someone always thinks that the difficulties at the borderlines of an issue should somehow relieve us of the responsibility of obeying it. I don't think so.

A second point is the idea that having laws about anything deters the behavior. Since the Garden of Eden the opposite has been the lot of humans. The law itself is what attracts people to the idea of seeing what they would happen if they broke it.

No law can 'make' anyone behave a certain way, but they can reflect the benchmark values of a group, which gives standards to live up to and inherently defines the quality of life enjoyed by its members.

18-year olds are largely defined as responsible adults in this country, although they are seldom actually emotionally or spiritually able to make decisions that require them to rein in their 'natural' desires. Our natural desires have become our gods and we are reaping the fruit of it in our families, neighborhoods, schools and all other social institutions.

18-year olds are very well aware of their adult status and need to understand and be held accountable for their actions, 'natural' urges notwithstanding.

Control other natural urges

Becky writes: Wednesday, March, 26, 2008 7:12 PM
Teenagers are not mature enough to understand all the emotional consequences of having sex.
=========

Well do you think a law will make them more mature, or should that be up to the parents?

=========

I remember an article in the “Saturday Evening Post” about 65 years ago, that stuck in my mind. (It must be on Google, everything else is there -- no, no, the article, not my mind.)

Three High School girls were standing on the corner when a nice looking man in an expensive car went by. They wrote down the license number, and you can guess the rest of the story. By the time it was over, the man had spent a lot of money, had been written about in the paper, lost his job, and on and on.

And that kind of thing still happens, and when it come to she said, he said in sexual matters, I vote to forget it. If there is no actual proof, forget it.

========

Some people say that sex is a natural impulse, and yet they want the government to control that. Well I would like the government to control other natural urges too. Why isn’t there a law that says how often I can urinate?

You have as much chance to control that by law as you do to control sex.

That’s why we should make the same rules for smoking marijuana, and having sex, as we have about drinking alcohol. Do you think that would stop the both problems?




Tough to follow
Becky, let me begin by saying how horrible I feel about the situation with your daughter. You have all of my sympathy, and I understand why you're angry. I also have relatives who were victims of sexual abuse.

But at the same time, your proposed solution does nothing to alleviate the enormous complexity of this issue. Even granting the proposal that ID ought to be required to purchase cigarettes, the analogy with sexual activity breaks down in that cigarettes are a product, regulated by the FDA, subject to the regulation of interstate commerce. Sex is none of those things. And how would you deal with minors possessing fake ID's? Who would regulate ID verification? Would horny couples need to swing by a notary on their way to Lookout Point? How would any of this alleviate the current "He said/she said" that characterizes CURRENT age-of-consent suits?

Furthermore, under your guidelines, sex between an 18 y.o. and a 16 y.o. is OK, but sex between a 19 y.o. and a 17 y.o. would result in jailtime, no questions asked. How is this fair? What about a 16 y.o. and a 15 y.o.?

I'm not trying to attack you personally, or be a p*ick, I just don't see a fair way to settle this issue. I think the best we can do is educate the kids, trust the parents, and pray for the best.

Age of consent
Yes, Juliet (and Romeo, I think) were 13 in Shakespeare's Romeo & Juliet.
I knew women who had been 12 and 13 when they married and had children at 14. They were fine women. I went to school with several girls who married at 14. Consent should be the criterion, not the age of an adolescent.

Underage Sex
There are studies out there that indicate that the main causes of poverty are single parenthood, not finishing high school, and having children at a young age. The three things are tied together; those who have children as teenagers are less likely to finish high school, are less likely to marry the child's other parent, and are therefore less likely to be able to support the child. Because of this, society has a stake in this issue.
Teenagers do have sex, but the school, family, and society in general should be discouraging it. Teenage sex should be portrayed realistically in the media, showing the long-term effects on the parents and the children. In no way should it be glamorized. Having said that, I do not believe that sex between minors should be criminalized unless there is a significant age difference. For example, if a sixteen-year-old has sex with an eight-year-old, it should be handled in juvenile court, and should not be considered criminal unless there is evidence of force being involved. The sixteen-year-old should not be listed as a sex offender unless there is a history of several such offences. If two children, both under the age of consent, have consensual sex, there should be no criminality. The age of consent should only apply where an adult is involved. I believe that the age of consent should be 14. However, I personally believe that no one under age 16 should be dating, and that sex before marriage should be strongly discouraged by society using any available disinsentives short of criminalizing the activity.

ModMark
Got burned by Duke and Georgetown but, I suppose everybody did. One bracket not looking so good, still have hope for the other one, how about you?

When it comes to gay marriage, I say let them have everything they want except that. Civil unions in states that want them, whatever. Live and let live. Gays should not suffer harrasement or unequal treatment under the law like anyone else but I guess it all depends on your view of church state separation. I couldn't really give a crap what the state does with marriage but, if my church ever sanctifies gay marriage, I will be looking for another church. I also think my church would be the last one on the planet to do so but, that is a conceit I admit.

I also must admit I do care a little bit what the state does with the institution as regards social well being which is best served by a child having both a mother and a father so.. I can support gay rights up until they want state sanctified marriage. Sorry Nambla

AO and STD
Tonight Keith Oelberman, after announcing that one in four teenage girls now has a sexually transmitted disease, pointed out that if Abstinence Only Education actually worked, zero teenage girls would have a sexually transmitted disease.

modmark
just want to apologise for dragging you into that situation.

that was not my intention.

you are one of the good guys and i felt horrible about it.

there were "lessons learned" on a couple levels.


Hitchhiker
How are you harmed if two people of the same sex choose to marry? Will this somehow negatively affect your marriage?

Galltegfa

I don't agree...
with homosexual marriage, but I think there are more pressing issues threatening our republic. This article provides some perspective...

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/links/lists/25NickSustana.html

Ageism, why ignore it
There is no question that all of those who advocate age restrictions on love relationships are grossly ageist.

What difference should age make? Or race, or gender?


consent laws
The age of consent laws are there to prevent pedophiles. The child is considered legally unable to consent, so it is rape, even if it was consensual.

No reasonable person would consider an 18 year old sleeping with a 17 year old to be a pedophile. A 30 year old would be another story.

Taking it to extremes like this is like those zero-drug tolerance programs you hear about where a kid is suspended for giving her friend an aspirin in school.

Question
Why is there a photo of Eliot Spitzer's whore in this article? What in the hell does she have to do with this subject?

Happy Jake
I agree, in part. Yes there SHOULD be statutory rape type laws against a "so-called" adult say twenty somthing taking advantage of a young girl say twelve, thirteen (for the sake of discussion). However, where we stray off the path of sanity is to try to LEGISLATE....against...the LAWS of nature and condemn those individuals who at those earlier ages DO HAVE sexual desire, and who are IN REALITY (gee reality is such an horrific thing to those who can't be bothered to look)...are literally doing what comes NATURALLY..Meaning the perversion isn't the young teens having sex. The perversion is trying to condemn, control and outlaw them doing what "The Creator" obviously intended...OTHERWISE the desire and physical maturity wouldn't be there.

It is the social manipulations of the human egos who think they can control and legislate everything from sex to the weather that is the perversion. AND WHAT CAUSES MOST OF THE PROBLEMS....That and all the emotional melodrama they create.

law-nature mismatch
"We all know pornography when we see it," is the old argument for porno laws and standards. There's a lot of common sense in that. We all know what we mean by illegal adult-child sex--and it's not a 19-year-old guy and his 17-year-old girlfriend. To have one's life ruined in this case is a tragic, cruel misuse of the law.

RE: Romeo & Juliet Laws
Just *what*, exactly, is the difference between a 16 year old consenting to sex with an 18 year old partner or with a 30 year old partner?

What makes this young person *capable* of consenting with one partner but suddenly *IN*capable of consenting with the other?


EITHER the 16 year old is CAPABLE of consenting or he/she is NOT...

Ageism revisited
A sixteen year old sleeping with a 30 year old may look creepy from the outside, and perhaps it is...

But I guarantee you, if Heidi Klum had come to my bedroom five years ago--when I was considerably underage--looking to spend a little quality time with me, I would have gone for it and never looked back.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's very possible, even common, for "underage" men and women to desire and consent to (somehow that word just doesn't seem emphatic enough) sex with much older people. I just don't see what's so criminal about that.

number44
... that woulda been illegal 'cause you were (five years ago) somehow *in*capable of consenting to sex with someone that much older than you.

Yet, if a college freshman of the ripe age of 18 approached you, under the Romeo & Juliet laws, it would have been a'ok. Well, maybe not a'ok, but at least it would not have been criminal.

How is a 16yo *capable* of consenting to sex with an 18yo partner but is suddenly *IN*capable of consenting if that partner is older? How does the age (alone, and no other factors) of the partner *change* a 16yo's ability to consent?

>>

Note: I agree with and appreciate much of what you've said thus far. Your example is simply a prime opportunity to reiterate my question.

BEST SOLUTION
The best solution is to educate kids from an early age about physical-personal responsibility with their bodies.

To teach understanding of potential consequences to certain choices and then support them in making those choices which endorse their personal goals.

Talking openly about sex and the enormous responsibility that comes with that choice is the best approach to reduce early sexual encounters and youth pregnancy.

If you can't talk about it openly to your child, get educated or don't become a parent until you have confidence in dealing with this and many other complicated subjects - you're doing more harm than good.

Thinking you're going to control behavior through fear and intimidation is antiquated in thought and process. NEWSFLASH-IT NEVER WORKS.

Lay out all options and all potential consequences.

If you utilize early situations as critical thinking examples for later decision making, you've got a greater chance of success.

Don't get stuck on stupid ideas of antiquated moralizing.

I know this is a late post,
but I’ve been busy with real life.

It is the laws themselves, and those who enforce the laws or use them in unintended ways which are the problem.

The laws with regard to what crimes are “sex offences” and what crimes can get you on a registry were written in such haste to react to a real tragedy that they make even non-sex offences sex crimes and punish the person as if they had committed a real sex crime.

The way the law is written now if a person were to go camping or boating at a local state park and had the urge to urinate or defecate and did so on a tree, bush or off the side of a boat into the lake and was caught doing so by a park ranger the crime they would be charged with would be a sex crime, which if convicted or plead to would trigger the law requiring them to be registered sex offenders.

It doesn’t matter if the person tried to hide themselves from public view or even if their genitals were visible. There is no provision in the law with regard to intent, which is main difference between someone exposing themselves to others for sexual gratification or simply needing to relieve themselves and trying to do so with out being seen.

I know those who draft laws are not perfect. Drafting laws to cover every possible scenario to only target the true crimes can’t always be done. That is where responsible law enforcement comes into play. An officer, or district attorney should be able to decide if the person was acting in a sexual manner or not.

Any law enforcement person who charges or prosecutes someone with a sexual offence that was not committing a sexual crime, and then justifies their actions by blaming those who wrote the laws should be removed from their office or position and permanently barred from holding positions in law enforcement again.

Consider the Genarlow Wilson case in GA.

Christopher Parisho
"I know this is a late post, but I’ve been busy with real life."

You mean to say this *isn't* real life?

You gotta be kidding me!!

Solution: younger marriages
Out of all the possible solutions offered so far, I notice one that no one has yet considered: letting people get married younger. Ancient cultures (Biblical ones, no less) were indeed willing to allow people to have sex at an early age--but mainly because by that time, they were already marrying them off. Our country's marriage laws already allow for marriages of this sort to a limited degree, but our culture has unwisely decided to stigmatize these marriages. There is also the matter of the "children" in these ancient cultures having been better educated and more emotionally mature at an early age, whereas our culture actively stigmatizes and discourages both traits to a very late age.

The reason we Christians especially are leery of any proposal that the age-of-consent laws be repealed is not that we believe these laws to be the best way to prevent our children from misbehaving, but because they are very nearly the last line of defense against parasitic and predatory political groups such as Planned Parenthood and GLSEN that seek to recruit our children to their evil causes through pandering to their passions.

It is not enough to repeal the old laws for being corrupt and self-contradictory; we need legislation abolishing compulsory schooling and everything else that provides these predators with captive audiences to their perversions. We also need better technology to filter out and discourage our media and our popular culture's similar panderings to passion. In short, we need a new culture to replace the old one. Until we have that, disposing of the old restraints will only serve to leave ourselves and our children at the mercy of every sexual predator in the nation. To this end, we need to adopt a culture that encourages earlier maturity and earlier marriage. Sexually active teens would actually be a blessing to us if they were all married to the ones with whom they were being so active.

which empty husk of morality?
Quote from above - "I believe that Christianity is the best path to a happy and fulfilled life, but if we're reading the same Bible, then the onus is on us to convince others of that fact. The government has no right to make people who aren't Christians behave like Christians; and as a Christian, you should realize that pious deeds (in this case, waiting for sex until marriage or any defined age) without an active internal spiritual life are an empty husk of morality."

Sorry, which empty husk of morality are you referring to..... the priests out there molesting young alter boys, the religious leaders being tried for facilitating under age marriage and incest, the fervently anti-gay conservative politicians who turn out to be gay themselves, the conservative talk show hosts who are revealed to be prescription drug abusers, the anti-vice politicians who end up being busted with prostitutes, evangelical megachurch owners evading fraud charges under 1st amendment protection etc etc..? You're all a bunch of puritanical, prosthelatizing hypocrites hiding behind the guise and protection of religion on which these unrealistic laws are based, as opposed to using common sense which is lacking at every level of our society! We're morally bankrupt and Bush and the so-called Christians are leading the way!

Consensual Chat
My son will have to register for life (if Louisiana passes a ridiculous new law) because of online consensual CHAT. I agree, he was stupid, immature and like that of a 15 or 16 year old - but I think most guys at age 21 are similar in maturity level. He never met the gal, never touched the gal, and knew her for 2-3 years! (note, she had told him she was 18 when they first met in chat--she turned 15 later on...but how would he know if she wasn't an 82 year old dude?? hmm) Ya think they'd check into HER activity before slamming my son into prison for 3 years and making him register. She gets off scott-free to continue with the other boys (and yes, there were at least 3 more boys, but daddy doesn't know about those YET). I do agree that parents SHOULD be held responsible. If my 12 year old daughter would have thrown a rock and broke someone's car window, who do they sue? The parents, so why not hold the parents responsible for their teens chatting for YEARS with inappropriate behavior...? Better than spending about $60,000+ to house and feed my son in prison for 3 years eh? He's a great kid with a now-ruined future. It is not fair and it is cruel and unusual punishment for consensual chat (5 felony counts of "computer aided solicitation of a minor" cuz he said "ya wanna" in some way or form over those 2-3 years, funny he never really wanted to meet her in person huh!) This young man is NOT a pedophile in any way/shape or form - can't we try to prove it??? They never let us even try! Minimum mandatory sentences prevented him from even trying to have a trial. He was facing FIFTY YEARS prison!! for CHAT!!?!!

Age of Consent
Romeo and Juliet cases are just the tip of the iceberg. John Stossel in his documentary covered several facets of this growing problem. The only way we are going to be able to get viable solutions to this horrendous problem is to set aside our emotions and look at the issues. A good place to start is here:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/09/06/usdom16819.htm
Also:Ricky's Life here
http://www.rickyslife.com/index.php
and Citizens For Legislative Change
Here: http://cfcoklahoma.com/

We must educate ourselves folks. Remember Mike Nifong and the Duke LaCross players? Your child could be next, your husband, perhaps you. All you need is an accusation and if you don't have a few hundred thousand dollars laying around for good lawyer, you'll be threatened with 90 years in prison or a deal where you must plead guilty. From there on life for you will be a living hell. Guaranteed! You could be next and you will not be afforded Constitutional protections unless you have BIG bucks

See, I told you so!
Just a few days ago I asked this question: If we legalize same-sex marriage, where do we draw the line? What's to prevent us from legalizing bestiality and pedophilia? People dismissed my questions as a "slippery slope" argument.

After reading Stossel's column all I can say is, "See, I told you so!"

You can't stop underage sex
I agree that people with violent sex crimes should be in the registry, but I don't agree with people who just made a mistake in their life with a underage female/male being on the registry. I do think they should be punished but not for the rest of their lives. I also feel it's the parents responsibility to raise their kids not to date way older people. See parents let their 13, 14, 15 year old child run the streets and put on short skirts and when one of them men/women have sex with them they get mad when honestly it's your fault. RAISE YOUR KIDS BETTER AND YOU WON'T HAVE THAT PROBLEM WITH NO PEDOPHILE OR PREDATOR OR WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL THEM.

Just my observation
Maybe I'm crazy but am I one of only a very few who realize that many, if not most, underage girls - 14 to 17 yrs-know exactly what they are doing and will use a boy just as quickly as a boy will use a girl to get what she wants, even if it means lying? We're not in the fifties anymore. There is very little justice for males. I wonder just how many innocent boys and men are in prison because of some "poor, weak" female. It's tragic. Btw, I am a Catholic female in my 50's and have both nephews and nieces that I dearly love.
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