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Wednesday, February 20, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Presidents Can't Manage the Economy
by John Stossel
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The presidential candidates have been repeatedly asked how they would "manage the economy." With the exception of Ron Paul, every candidate has accepted the premise that this is something the president of the United States should do.

Or can do.

Nonsense.

Democrats act like the president is national economic manager. Republicans pay lip service to free markets, tax and spending cuts, and less regulation -- before proposing big programs to achieve "energy independence," job training and a cooler climate.

John McCain says it's important for government to do something "to sustain our leadership in manufacturing". Why? Manufacturing jobs are no better for America than other jobs. Some argue that they are worse. How many parents want their children to work in factories rather than offices? Increasing service jobs in medical, financial and computer sectors while importing manufactured goods doesn't hurt America. It helps America.

The candidates see the global economy as an arena in which countries compete against one another -- an economic Olympiad with winners and losers. Politicians love to promise they will keep America No. 1, as if that matters in a worldwide marketplace.

America as a nation does not compete against China or South Korea or Japan. American companies compete against companies in other countries, but that's something else. The purpose of production is consumption, and American consumers prosper when foreigners compete successfully with American companies.

A president who sees the global economy as a competition among nations will be tempted to intervene on behalf of the "United States" and create "good American jobs." That's how governments mess up economies.

McCain says, "It is government's job to help workers get the education and training they need for the new jobs". Mike Huckabee (who glories in public-works projects as a job-creation machine) and Barack Obama talk in similar terms.

That hardly shows confidence in the free market, which, if allowed, would train and educate workers just fine. But it shows misplaced confidence in the federal government, which, as journalist Jim Bovard has shown, has an unbelievably bad track record at doing it. The endless list of programs, like the Manpower Development and Training Administration, Comprehensive Employment and Training Act, Job Training Partnership Act, STIP, BEST, YIEPP, YACC, SCSEP, HIRE, etc., wasted billions and "distorted people's lives and careers by making false promises, leading them to believe that a year or two in this or that program was the key to the future. Federal training programs have tended to place people in low-paying jobs, if trainees got jobs at all." .

Sen. Hillary Clinton told The New York Times recently, "I want to get back to the appropriate balance of power between government and the market. You try to find common ground, insofar as possible. But if you really believe you have to manage the economy, you have to stake a lot of your presidency on it."

Notice that she equates government power and market power. That is absurd. "Power" in a free market means success at creating goods and services that your fellow human beings voluntarily choose to buy. Government power is force: the ability to fine and imprison people.

Politicians who talk about managing the economy ignore the fact that, strictly speaking, there is no economy. There are only people producing, buying and selling goods and services. Keep that in mind, and one realizes that government action more often than not interferes with the productive activities that benefit everyone. When politicians propose regulations to fix some problem, they should ask if some earlier intervention created the problem and if the new regulations will make things worse. The answer to both questions is usually yes.

The economy is far too complex for any president -- no matter how smart -- to manage. How can politicians and bureaucrats possibly know what hundreds of millions of individuals know, want and aspire to? How can government employees fathom what trade-offs to make in a world of scarce resources?

They can't. That's why free people are more prosperous than unfree people.

Presidential candidates should promise to keep their hands off the economy.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Fabulous article
Great article Mr. Stossel. You're quite right. I think its especially ludicrous that Mrs. Clinton suggests freezing repayments on home foreclosures. While this is definetly a just principle, this would be government intervention at its worst. It reminds me of the labor party's recent nationalization of the failed bank in England.
You did an excellent interview with Ron Paul on youtube. Why was it never aired on television?

JohnGalt
equally ludicrous that Mitt Romney is going to bring ANY auto jobs back to Michigan. Sheer lunacy!

Rudy had his 'Catastrophe Fund' where people who built 5000 square foot beach-front McMansions with the $10,000 crystal chandelier in Hurricane Alley would get taxpayer financed insurance.

Bush has his taxpayer rebate program where Michael Bloomberg more aptly says "it's like giving an alcoholic another drink."

And Bush preempted everyone with his own taxpayer financed sub-prime bailout where,
Idiots took out loans they couldn't afford.
Idiots gave out loans to people who could never afford them.
Idiots gave good ratings to these contracts between idiots.



This is Why I Love Gridlock
When the president is one party, and congress is the other, and so they spend all their time fighting with each other until nothing gets done --

-- the rest of us can get on with our lives without as much of their interference.

The 'planned' economy
Given that the socialists have already had more than enough experience with the Command Economy, you'd think its inherent failures and inefficiencies had already seeped into their demented brains. But problem solving is never their goal while failure, waste and destruction has never deterred the socialists' pursuit of absolute power over the individual.
_________________

'When the president is one party, and congress is the other, and so they spend all their time fighting with each other until nothing gets done --'

The trouble is that the controlling party of Congress has a POTUS choice of two radical fascist leftists opposed by the opposition party's liberal collaborator. Where's the 'gridlock' in this scenario?

Cheerleaders...
What an impossible situation we find ourselves in these days.

All of the current contenders apparently feel they must in some manner "lead" the economy in some direction or another, by one nefarious scheme or another. Balderdash. Our economy works best when it is led--or driven--by the invisible hand of free market forces.

It just reminds me of the dictum I learned in the Army: "Lead, follow--or stay the hell out of the way!" This is one area that presidents--and Congress--must learn to just stay out of the way.

Right on, John Stossel!

Ron Paul - Not arrogance but stupidity..
--
...moves the political opponents of Dr. Paul (Democrats and nominal Republicans alike) to stand up and claim that it is within the power of government to "manage" the economy.

Bloody nonsense.

Yes, the government - by misusing its *REAL* power (to impose violent force upon the affairs of men) - can cause people to do things in the marketplace they wouldn't otherwise have done.

The government can force people to beggar their children to pay extortionate taxes.

What part of "Your money or your life!" don't you understand?

The government can favor one person or corporation or faction over everyone else, and suppress competition to enable the government's favored monopoly to charge higher prices to an effectively trapped and helpless public.

Ron Paul - a doctor - understands how negative feedback systems operate. It's the essence of physiology. It's how the human body works.

It's also how the free market - the market free of violent coercion - works.

To view the economy in any other way (in, for example, the way Hillary and Obama and McCain obviously do, as something government can "manage") is contrary to both plain goddamned fact and anything remotely connected with a respect for the moral value of human life.

To approach the economy as do Senators McCain, Obama, and Clinton, you must be "...either evil, stupid, or insane."

So which condition d'you think explains the position of the "front-runner" *YOU* intend to hold your nose and vote for come November 4th?

--

NOTA
In my opinion, there is only one rational vote in the presidential race: NOTA (None Of The Above). Congress? Reelect no one. That's my 2 cents worth, anyway.

SNAFU
I'm with you, brother. I've already organized a "Vote Out the Incumbent" drive in my office, and we need to spread it as far as possible.

The Economy
However, The economy does react well independently when there is a president in charge who shows leadership and accountability. Something that hasn't been shown it quite a long time.

Bush Dismisses Iraq Recession

Bush Dismisses Iraq Recession: The War Has ‘Nothing To Do With The Economy’

This morning on NBC’s Today Show, President Bush denied that the there’s any link between the faltering U.S. economy and $10 billion a month being spent on the Iraq war. In fact, according to Bush, the war is actually helping the economy: WOW is Bush joking?

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/bush-dismisses-ira q-recession-the-war-has-%e2%80%98nothing-to-do-with-the-eco nomy%e2%80%99

Hear, hear
Great article. Get the busibodies out of Washington.

Dave

Bush and Iraq "Recession"
John Konop, I think you miss a couple of points.

By any recognized definition, there is no recession. Real GDP has not decreased, according to published statistics that are accepted by all sides. It seems that any economic hiccup these days is at once labeled a "recession" or even "depression". Call it what you like, but those problems do not equal a recession.

And, distasteful as the subject is to some, war is good for the economy. That $10 billion spent on the war is not just simply taken out on the Pentagon lawn and burned. No, the money is spent on buying goods and services to support the war, endeavors that employ hundreds of thousands of Americans. Those Americans would be unemployed, laid off, working fewer hours, if not for military expenditures. You may or may not support the war, but it's difficult to argue against it on economic grounds.

No Incumbents!
I've read a few folks here want to vote the incumbents out. I agree and am starting by not voting for McCain as Pres.
Start locally for the new breed of conservatives to arise in 2 to 4 yrs.


The wisdom of humility...
...is as scarce as hens' teeth in Washington.

Oh! what I wouldn't give to turn on C-Span and hear a federal official say, "You know, this really isn't any of our business, and I don't know what we could do about it anyway." The poor guy would be run out of town on a rail.

I'd love to just burn the entire Federal Code and start over. Nobody would remember 10% of what's in it anyway.

Kooky!
"The presidential candidates have been repeatedly asked how they would "manage the economy." With the exception of Ron Paul, every candidate has accepted the premise that this is something the president of the United States should do."

With the exception of Ron Paul?

I guess we should add to our lists as "kooky" the idea that a president shouldn't interfere in the economy.

Reelect no one
My do-nothing GOP big-government, nanny senator is up for reelection. And I live in a congressional district with a democrat representative who talks the conservative talk but mostly takes his marching orders from Pelosi. They both need to be sent to the soup lines, IMO. If enough of these congressional types were sent packing, maybe we could retake liberties lost.

Kooky?
Funny, but my copy of the US Constitution doesn't mention anything about the president "interfering" with the economy. Most of our presidents have been mental midgets when the subject turns to economic affairs. FDR is a prime example. The president has no legitimate role in a free market economy.

It is so simple...
a concept to understand. Government is the problem not the solution. Many years ago someone said something like that. Why have we now almost universally accepted the notion that government is our salvation?

I believe it is because the Marxists, Socialists and Communists have largely secured the positions of influence. Can lobbists be Marxists? You bet. Can caring Christians be Socialists? You bet. Can liberals be Communists? You bet.

The Soviet Union shut down as much as it was beaten down. Why? The seeds of their progeny were successfully planted in the fertile soil of the influential strata of the USA.

McCarthy was absolutely right when he was looking for Communists in our government. New evidence supports his assertions and the demise of Joe's campaign to free USA of Communists was the death rattle for this great country.

We conservatives that still remember that the government is the problem have got a lot of work to do. Get after it!!!!!!!!!!

war is not good for the economy...
Snafu,

I agree with most of your points. However, war isn't good for anything. At best it is a necessary evil. As F Bastiat noted long ago, it might appear that the economy is improved when a window is broken. After all, the glass maker gets extra work. But that is because it is difficult to look at the hidden costs, especially the opportunity costs. Think of what we could achieve economically, if the best and brightest of this country were focused on productive pursuits instead of destructive pursuits.

Management
Neither McCain, Obama, nor Clinton has ever managed any business of importance in their lives! And they think they can manage all of US economic activity? Disgusting! How did abject fools float to the top?

Zero sum, the point of enterprise heresy
What liberals do not understand, is a list that stretches past the neighboring galaxy.

However, this year a lot of liberty is in jeopardy because liberals believe that economic reality is that someone has to lose in a economic transaction. There simple will be no consideration of a win-win proposition.

In government controlled economics there is a bias towards zero sum. The more controlled, the closer to zero.

In free enterprise, where justice is part of the accounting practice, one plus one is often more than two. This is why, after years of high control and economic failure in Russia and China, it was changes to their systems that were made in order to foster USA style enterprise to reverse their fortunes. Once fortunes were reversed, Putin, like our liberals, will revert back to zero sum politics. Maybe there is hope for China.

FeedFwd
Military research and development aren't productive? They don't employ our "best and brightest"? Ponder a moment on the technology that our nation runs on and track it back to its source. Computers. Satellite communications. GPS navigation systems. Nuclear power generation. Weather radar and forecasting systems. Solar power panels. NASA and our various space systems had their genesis in the military. That's a very short list of things taken for granted that were developed by the military, not for altruistic purposes but for warfare. There are countless thousands more.

And many hundreds of thousands of Americans, our best and brightest, toiled for years developing them--and that's where the bulk of military funding goes, into the pockets of those who produce the goods and provide the services of war. In turn, those workers spend money for goods and services in the civilian sector--Sears, JC Penney, K-Mart, the local flea market, wherever--which provides employment for many more. It's been a while since I saw the statistic, and I cannot remember the source, but every dollar spent on the "military industrial complex" is turned over 9 times in the economy, wending its way from one wage-earner to the next.

Again, one may dislike war. I'm retired Army and, like most service members, I have no love for war. But to claim it is detrimental to our economy is simply incorrect.

Moonkeeper
It seems you have been living on the moon if you haven't heard that leading economists, including Peter Schiff, Don Luskin, Lew Rockwell, and a host of economics professors have all endorsed Ron Paul and his ideas, indeed to the exclusion of every other candidate.

He has been the only one sounding the alarm about the monetary crisis that is now upon us and has proposed the only valid solutions to our crashing dollar.

Perhaps you prefer McCain, who is utterly ignorant of the function or even the existence of the President's Working Group on Financial Markets.

Best do some reading and become educated before expressing opinions out of nothing but ignorant bias.



Snafu,
I don't dispute the benefits that have come from military research. The window maker also benefits from a broken window. What we don't know is where the resources plowed into military spending would have gone if not into military spending. Now if you believe the government would have simply wasted it on other frivolous things, I would even agree that military spending probably delivers a bigger bang for the buck than other areas of government spending. But what if the money had been left in the hands of the the people who earned it? Perhaps we would have had computers and rockets and sattellites and solar panels and all manner of things evolved from military research, or maybe not. But it isn't a given that we would have been better off.

I am not opposed to military and I am not an objector to military spending. I'm only saying that as a government planned program/process/agency, it is probably sub-optimized to what would be done in the private sector through entreprenuerial initiative. And yes, the military is designed to break things and kill people. So even though it is necessary for our country to retain our liberties and even if there is an apparent positive impact on our economy, think of how much money we send around the world fixing the all the things our army has broken. I'm with you in spirit, and I consider this just nitpicking on my part, but real nonetheless.

Yep.....
Not as big of a difference between republicans and democrats as one thinks.

The democrats are a bunch of commies with a hegemony-lite philosophy. Any criticism brings on the chorus of cries of Fascism.

The republicans have a warmonger-hegemony political philosophy and are commies-lite. Any criticism brings on the chorus of cries of isolationism.

the thought that republicans stand for free markets in this day is laughable....I just have to bring up two words to debunk that theory....."The Fed"

Snafu
Snafu,

You must understand that war takes resources out of the economy as much as it puts in. Re-read the 'broken windows fallacy' that was referred to in an early post. Every dollar spent on the war is a dollar taken out of the economy. At best it is a zero sum game. More likely the resources used for military purposes are forever lost. A bomb that explodes in Iraq represents a home, a TV or other good that was NOT created in the real economy. Given that the bomb is exploded and forever gone, the trade-off for the goods NOT otherwise created is a NET LOSS to the economy. It is always this way with war. If war were good for the economy as a general rule, it would be wise for us to fill ships with resources, sail them to sea and sink them. Having fulfilled this task repeat it. Of course this is silly, but it is silly for the same reason that the "war is good for the economy' argument is silly.

Another great column John
.

Laurie.....
I believe Moonkeeper was being sarcastic. He supports Ron Paul. Click his nom-de-plume

ummm, Laurie
"It seems you have been living on the moon if you haven't heard that leading economists, including Peter Schiff, Don Luskin, Lew Rockwell, and a host of economics professors have all endorsed Ron Paul and his ideas, indeed to the exclusion of every other candidate."

I registered Republican solely so I could vote for Ron Paul in my state's closed primary. My comment was sarcastic and aimed at those that call Ron Paul a kook.

To Stossel
I don't know if this is the appropriate place to
bring this up, but it is close enough.

Town Hall: TH has got to be one of the best
financed blogger type sites on the US web. It
has all sorts of ads, including the super
annoying pop up ads and pouty girls in clinging
t-shirts, leads to all sorts of other websites, including the very relevant celebrity news.
Every person that signs up to post on the website
finds that his name has been sold to others who
will then fill up your email with unwanted spam.

And for this we get, WHAT? Nutcases like Mike Adams, and Doug Giles, reporters who carry
personal grudges like Dick whatever his name is
and his cohort, several who are seriously under-
smart like McCoullough. And we get a website that is darn near impossible to use. Right
now as I am typing, the words are about 20 strokes behind my actual typing. Often I, or someone else, has double posted through no fault
of our own. The mechanics of this website is
laughable - and oh so irritating.

So what's the point. Well, it has been said over
and over on his website and elsewhere that the
least government is the best government. I
disagree. But again, what is the point? My
point is that like it or not someone or something is in charge. And if not a duly
elected government then who? Well, it is the
people who run businesses, or the oligarchy if you will. And there is absolutely no reason to believe that the oligarchy has our best interests
in mind. The government may not work the way
we want it to, but the oligarchy does a splendid
job of taking care of their own interests, while throwing crums to the rest of us. And they do it at government expense as often as any poor
person has ever done.

Presidents may not be able to manage the economy,
but they can help protect citizens from those
who can muster multi-million salaries for
themselves, but no benefits beyond a low hourly wage for their workers.




Ron Paul's economic plan: synopsis.
The four areas that the plan covers are:

Tax Reform - Reduce the tax burden and eliminate taxes that punish investment and savings, including job-killing corporate taxes.

Spending Reform - Eliminate wasteful spending. Reduce overseas commitments. Freeze all non-defense, non-entitlement spending at current levels.

Monetary Policy Reform - Expand openness with the Federal Reserve and require the Fed to televise its meetings. Return value to our money.

Regulatory Reform - Repeal Sarbanes/Oxley regulations that push companies to seek capital outside of US markets. Stop restricting community banks from fostering local economic growth.

viruddh
Please donate all of your income to the nearest homeless shelter. At least it will go to better use than when the government confiscates it.

Sorry Moonkeeper
Really couldn't tell, but glad to hear you're on the right side.

viruddh writes:
'Well, it has been said over and over on his website and elsewhere that the least government is the best government. I disagree.'

The problem is with a large Federal government. The larger it gets the less likely it is to defend the small voices of the voting masses. A large government will be more easily manipulated by large business and special interest as witnessed by the many lobbyists in DC.

Having no government is not desirable either. Government should first of all defend the LAW of the LAND. With an impartial judiciary the small voices have protection from the evil people and organizations of this world. The second must for Government is to provide for a common defense from threats foreign and domestic. Beyond these lofty goals any growth in Government will be at the expense of the rights, freedoms and privileges of a free people.

Heresyarch
"Please donate all of your income to the nearest homeless shelter. At least it will go to better use than when the government confiscates it."

*****

The homeless shelter already gets my time. It's
in our church. I guess it also gets some of my
money which I give to the church.

The government has got my money to pay for a war
I do not want. But funny thing, last I heard
no war was actually ever licensed
by the government. It is truly Bush's war. You
know, the same guy who got his non-familial
wealth through tax subsidies and eminent domain.
Yeah, that guy. Long live the oligarchy.


Ahem
Virdduh, feel free to leave this site and never come back. We won't miss ya

Viruddh
"My point is that like it or not someone or something is in charge. And if not a duly
elected government then who?"

This statement of yours really frightens me. In America, if we are taught properly, we learn that the only people who should be in charge are THE PEOPLE. "WE THE PEOPLE" PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE.

If you think any centralized authority, whether it be the oligarchy or the government, has anyone's interests at heart, you are sadly delusional. Like Deacon said - the government defends the law of the land and protects us from common threats, foreign and domestic. What the government is supposed to do is in the Constitution and should be left to just that.

Anything else is made up and made to give government more power and take away more of our rights. And believe me, they don't do it all at once. They do it slowly but surely until you are surprised when suddenly you are living in a fascist or communist or otherwise totalitarian country.

Our Founding Fathers hated government, despised government. They were not anarchists but they had a healthy distrust of it and we have lost that healthy distrust. We trust too much now and if we don't wake up, all will be lost.

viruddh -- on Pop-ups etc.
Use the Firefox browser. Install the NoScript plug-in.

If that's not enough, there's also a plug-in that blanks out most of the advertising.

As to being put on mailing lists, get a Gmail account. I got one that I use for just such occasion, and I almost never read it.

As to 20 strokes behind, there's probably a problem on your PC. You should check it out, because it could be a virus.

Republican Stewardship
I am a Democrat, but all my (long) life I have bought into the idea that Republicans are better fiscal managers than Democrats, who are more oriented to social service. I don't see how any American could possibly still believe that. We have had a Republican government for 20 of the past 28 years and a Republican-on-Steroids government for the past 8 of those years. I hear that CEOs are doing well, but the parts of the economy that affect me directly are as follow:

1) CD rates range from 2% to 4%.
2) The stock market is a heartbreak.
3) Gas prices where I live hover around $4.
4) Food prices have catapulted upward in the past few years; my grocery costs have doubled.
5) Housing foreclosures are up while housing starts and sales are down; the value of real estate that I own is, of late, flat-line.
6) Medical and drug costs are astronomical (I recently paid $250 out-of-pocket for a single dose of medication, and that was just my 20% co-pay with very good private insurance).

When we factor in the backstory of middle-class economy (lost pensions, loss of union clout, outsourcing of jobs to Asia) I don't see how we can come up with any logical conclusion except that the Bush administration favors Corporate America over the American middle class and has governed and made economic and social policy accordingly. John McCain would be Bush II Scene II. I want a change. I want a return of the middle-class life that we used to enjoy.

A few points.
"With the exception of Ron Paul, every candidate has accepted the premise that this is something the president of the United States should do."
Ron Paul doesn't think the government should be doing very much anyway. The other candidates meanwhile buy into the delusion of doing something.
"Manufacturing jobs are no better for America than other jobs. Some argue that they are worse. How many parents want their children to work in factories rather than offices? Increasing service jobs in medical, financial and computer sectors while importing manufactured goods doesn't hurt America. It helps America."
But try telling that to the millions of Americans who still feel that we are supposed to be totally economically self sufficient, and import those items were can't really make for ourselves. Also, the political class--I shudder to say that--has convinced many of us that letting the economy work itself out would lead to chaos. And the multi-trillion dollar questions is what good can come of chaos. (The corporate world also likes regulation to protect their business, rather work on being better at that their main business.)
"The economy is far too complex for any president -- no matter how smart -- to manage. How can politicians and bureaucrats possibly know what hundreds of millions of individuals know, want and aspire to? How can government employees fathom what trade-offs to make in a world of scarce resources?"
Actually, no one can. But then there is still the political need for the delusion of doing something. We should really take more control of our economic future. I was in a government job training program years ago, and I did not think it really helped me long term. I am paying my own way through another program. Perhaps the private sector could do more to train workers if we did not but into the delusion of doing something.

viruddh -- on Public Charity and Wars
"The homeless shelter already gets my time. It's
in our church. I guess it also gets some of my
money which I give to the church."

SPLENDID! You will surely go to Heaven for that. You are using YOUR own resources for a Greater Cause.

Unless you go to the Other Place for stealing someone else's time and money to support your causes. Which is effectively what you're doing when you advocate government hand-outs.



"The government has got my money to pay for a war
I do not want. But funny thing, last I heard
no war was actually ever licensed
by the government. It is truly Bush's war."

Actually, Congress can put a stop to it at any time simply by voting against funding. Since they voted FOR funding, and CONTINUE to do so, they are fully complicit with the arrangement, no matter how much they may kvetch about it.

So calling it "Bush's war" is simply another liberal ad hominem with no basis in reality.

virruddh
Yeah, the oligarchy you keep in power....

Long live it. And confiscate all the taxes possible for redistributionist policies *and* illegal wars.

Long live the oligarchy.

Can't wait to get on the public dole so I can spend 40-60 more hours with my kids.....hope someone still works to pay me to stay at home....ahh shucks, the government will print the money for me to stay at home.

Long live the oligarchy.

Its Bush_Clinton_Obama_and_friends...yeah those guys.

To ladykrystyna
Please explain to me how the people will arrange, without the help of government, to have the following:

1) Public transportation (subway, bus, train)
2) Public protection (police, firefighters, paramedics, inspectors of gas meters)
3) Public lands (parks, forests, beaches for all to enjoy)
4) Public civility (enforcement of laws)
5) Public ways (streets, roads, highways, bridges, viaducts, trestles, tunnel, ports, harbors, regulation of flight)

No individual, no matter how brave and enterprising, can manage for himself the benefits of society. That is why we have government: to build civilization and keep it from returning to the wildnerness. Are you an anarchist?


Mitt Romney on Michigan
I don't know if the point is true, but Romney's argument about bringing jobs back to Detroit was not about government intervention but about leveling playing field distorted by government policies in Europoe and Asia. He argued that US car manufacturers do not have equal access to Japanese car markets, and that due to European taxes, American manufacturers do not compete equally there either.

This is where political leaders and government do have a role: getting government out of the way domestically and internationally.

Another Gem From John Stossel
Government is a fat-fingered lummox, by which I mean it is good at forcing simple outcomes that have no real trade-offs.

Toppling the Saddam Hussein government was a simple outcome, efficiently and effectively achieved. Less easy was the complex outcome of establishing a stable and democratic government in Iraq.

Mailing a standard check to everyone 65 or older is a simple outcome. However, providing retirement security for the young and old is complex, and outcome Social Security has never achieved.

Placing 3 men on the moon and returning them safely is a simple outcome that the government achieved several times around 1970. Providing economical shuttle service to outer space is a complex outcome that the government has never realized, twice producing disaster in the attempt.

I could go on and on. Complex outcomes, like universal compassionate care, are better left to the private sector.

Lilly
Do you read? I stated that government was there for our DEFENSE. Sorry if you can't extrapolate from that - yes, that means police, firemen, enforcement of the laws. And I have no problem with public transportation and public roadways. Never said I did.

I also don't have a problem with public lands in general. However, I'd be willing to listen to proposals that show that those same public lands (mostly the National Parks - I'm a sucker for those) can be protected privately.

It's many of the other bells and whistles that I object to that are NOT supported by the Constitution no matter what some crackpot Supreme Court Justice wants to say about it.

In other words, I agree with John Stossel and in general agree with a more libertarian view of things, but not to an extreme.

So, please, READ the post in its entirety, and give it some thought before you respond.

Lily
Comments on your points. This is not a general defense of the Bush administration, just a comment on your argument that Republicans are bad for the economy.

1) CD rates range from 2% to 4%.

I supposed your argument is that low interest rates are bad? I don't even know what your point is. Would you rather have extremely high interest rates and inflation(since the two must go hand in hand). Please explain this.

2) The stock market is a heartbreak

You can't have it both ways. If Bush is really giving away money to the corporate cronies, wouldn't the stock market be up?

3) Gas prices where I live hover around $4.

There are only two ways to reduce gas prices. First, reduce demand. Americans just aren't going to do this. We love to drive the biggest car we can possibly afford. Its who we are. Conceivably, years of marketing could change this, but I highly doubt it. The other option is to increase supply, which Democrats are firmly against, so I don't understand how this is a Republican problem.

4) Food prices have catapulted upward in the past few years; my grocery costs have doubled.

This is related to number 3, as transportation costs have risen. But honestly, the Republicans can't possibly control the futures markets, which is what sets the prices of groceries. Again, its a supply and demand thing, not sure what you expect the omnimpotent government to do.

5) Housing foreclosures are up while housing starts and sales are down; the value of real estate that I own is, of late, flat-line.

Remember, it was the Democrats that caused the subprime problem by twisting the arms of lenders to start giving mortgages to people who shouldn't have them. Now that the forclosures start, the Democrats are denying all responsibility.

Capitalism VS Socialism
This is Oboma's and Hillary continued War on Capitalism VS Socialism and no more .
It's is no more than recently re dressed just Not in long haired , dirty jeans , beads and peace signs but carries with the same Socialist Parties
red banners .
All green heads and Socialist hate Profits and Corporations worse than they do a battle Ax mother in-laws on both his of their families .
This Socialist War started way back in Russia, then Germany , China , Eastern Europe and continued too fail in many countries world wide .
The one known was ........It left a Bloody path need we forget of poverty , starvation and hunger alone with Broken Economies ... murdering over 200 million human beings .
Yet those Socialist all trumpeted Human Rights and Government knows what is right for you and not your own self THAT IS HILLARY AND OBOMA'S ""THIS IS A RECORDING " !
I have listened to Hillary and Oboma countless Speeches . Too date I have never heard them say WE SUPPORT INDIVIDUALISM , PERSONAL RESPONSIBLY OR MORAL ETHICS ....NOT ONCE .
Just for the record all SOCIALIST have your hands out . America was founded on Capitalism, INDIVIDUALISM AND THAT IS ''WHY ' WE ARE THE MOST PRODUCTIVE COUNTRY EVER YOU SOCIALIST WANT TO DESTROY !
Not on my watch !

Lily : Public Transportation
Well the government runs public transportation here in Chicago, and they do such a wonderful job that prices keep going up, and the CTA keeps threatening bankruptcy so we can raise the sales tax to funnel more money into their coffers.

I would aruge that a private organization could not possibly be worse.

And in any event, public transportation is not necessary for civilization(note that human beings survived a long time without it)

Lilly -- THINK for once
Oh I love how these liberals "argue".

It's like, conservatives complain, "Oh, man, these shoes are too tight! They pinch the bunions! They scape the ankles! We need to exchange these shoes for a looser pair!"

And then the liberals' favorite come-back, "WHAT, YOU WANT TO GO BARE-FOOT?? HOW ARE YOU GOING TO WALK ACROSS BURNING COALS WITHOUT SHOES ON YOUR FEET?? WE REALLY NEED TO HAVE SHOES!! EVERY CIVILIZED SOCIETY WEARS SHOES!!"

Uh -- hello?

Did anybody here say we should THROW AWAY the shoes?

We just want shoes that FIT.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

And -- for the metaphor-challenged -- we're not saying to get RID of government -- we're saying we have TOO MUCH government.

Or more specifically to the current topic -- we need a government that does NOT try to RUN THE ECONOMY. It does a MISERABLE JOB of it, and only makes things worse every time it tries.

Lilly,
1) CD rates range from 2% to 4%.

Whether republicans or democrats are in charge, the Fed sets the interest rates independent of the market requirements to affect the economy. That is called big government.

2) The stock market is a heartbreak.

The stock market is an investment opportunity that, like all investments has some risk. The more risk you are willing to accept, the more money you are likely to make or lose. Big government regulates the stock market to some extent. Mostly its affect on the economy indirectly affects stock prices. Poor performance by companies is also a factor. Government tends to protect large companies who can afford to lobby and thereby hinders innovation and ultimately hurts stock prices.

3) Gas prices where I live hover around $4.

It's called supply and demand. There is no obligation for the gas station to maintain constant prices. When alterntive sources (e.g.nuclear) and additional exploration and refining are prohibited by government, there will be no way to offset increased demand domestically and globally except through higher prices.


Lilly,
Cont'd

4) Food prices have catapulted upward in the past few years; my grocery costs have doubled.

Same scenario as with oil. Farmers are heavily regulated by government. In fact, lots of farms are producing corn for ethanol taking many fields out of the food production business.

5) Housing foreclosures are up while housing starts and sales are down; the value of real estate that I own is, of late, flat-line.

As somebody stated earlier, we can't do much about idiots. Idiots borrow more money they can afford. Idiots lend money to risky borrowers. The government encourages it and then whines when the inevitable happens.

6) Medical and drug costs are astronomical (I recently paid $250 out-of-pocket for a single dose of medication, and that was just my 20% co-pay with very good private insurance).

There are lots of reasons for escalating medical care. Just be thankful you could get your medicine or see a doctor when you need to. If things continue, that won't be a sure bet.

There is one (two phase) action both
the sitting President and sitting Congress can do unleash the economy (notice I didn't say manage), that is to pass the FairTax into law.

Phase 1 - Pass the FairTax bill into law.
Phase 2 - Repeal the 16th amendment (which has to happen before the FairTax takes effect even if made law of the land).
This will start a process of getting government out of the market.

Businesses in the U.S. will make decisions based on what is good and profitable for the business instead of what tax obligation is avoided or incurred.

A tax free haven will help bring back manufacturing and other blue color labor which has left the country over the decades.

Whole corporations will move here, or move back here, from he low tax countries they are in now. With them will come trillions of American dollars now sitting in banks overseas to avoid taxation by the U.S. government and seizure by politicians like Hillary Clinton.

People will not have to spend hours (and sometimes lots of money) to figure out what tax the government is entitled to take from them for their hard work.

People will receive 100% of their earnings each pay day, giving them more buying power in the market.

And it will help end the use of the tax code as a manipulative tool for politicians to force us to behave the way government wants us to behave.

Lilly,
1) Public transportation (subway, bus, train)

You might ask Greyhound bus lines or Southwest Airlines. How about allowing jitney service which is prohibited in most cities as a protectionsit measure for cabs. And while we are on the subject, why should we have to pay for bus or train service we may never use? Who would ride if they had to pay the actual cost of such service? (Answer, people in places like major cities if and where it makes sense and is economically viable.)

2) Public protection (police, firefighters, paramedics, inspectors of gas meters)

Local government can fund police and firefighters to the degree the local community deems reasonable. It is a reasonable function of local government. Weights and measures is currently a government bureaucracy. It could be done by 3rd party independent inspectors. Do not imagine it is currently without cost.

3) Public lands (parks, forests, beaches for all to enjoy)

Tragedy of the commons ring a bell? Private owners can certainly own maintain and operate things like beaches, parks, and forests, without relying on government. At the very least, entrance admissions or user fees should re-imburse government the full cost of operating them. Again, why should I pay for a beach I am never going to visit?

4) Public civility (enforcement of laws)

The judicial branch fullfills a proper government function. Even so, we still see private security companies and non-government bargaining and arbitration for settlement of some disputes. So it doesn't have to be a government function.

5) Public ways (streets, roads, highways, bridges, viaducts, trestles, tunnel, ports, harbors, regulation of flight)

They can be private or public. It is desirable to have user fees pay for them rather than gneral tax revenues. Tolls, port access, etc are ways to directly charge users. Fuel taxes and other indirect ways are also possible.

I look at the candidates
WE are SO screwed.

See my Parody, my blog.

Good point John...
The President also can't:

- Raise/lower taxes
- Nationalize health care
- Take the country to war
- Stop global warming (since it doesn't exist)
- Improve education
- Spend a nickel without Congressional authority

to name a few...

People buying into the hype are clueless. People who call it "Bush's war" are clueless. Everything the President does (except enforce laws and govern foreign policy) is done with Congressional approval. Congress wants us to forget that so we can mindlessly go on blaming one person for their screw-ups.

I agree with many who think that our focus should be on Congress in November.

orlando cajun,
You are right up to a point. The reason the Founders gave us a president and not a triumvirate or tribunal or politburo or whatever, was because they wanted to ensure there was one person ultimately accountable for the actions of the government. He is not a dictator and he is constitutionally limited in what he may do, but he is more than just a figurehead. He is single-handedly responsible for the executive branch of the federal government and like the quarterback of a football team receives more than his fair share of acclaim for both the good and bad.

Lilly
Those horrible drug companies! How dare they invent new drugs that cure your diseases and make you live longer. You always have an option. Pretend it's 10 years ago and that new drug you're taking (whose price you're complaining about) doesn't exist. Just don't take it, and you won't have to pay $250.

Drug companies spend billions developing cures for diseases, many of which end up going nowhere, their research and development dollars down the drain. So they recoup that when they do come up with a good drug that works. Your choice is not between new drugs at high prices and new drugs at low prices. It's between new drugs at high prices and no new drugs. Remember, if you don't like paying high prices for new drugs, just don't take them.

Managing the economy
Managing the economomy is one of those bad lessons from the 1930's and kinseyan theories. Those theories said government spending expanded the economy. Roosevelt followed this heavily, but the failure cam quickly by dragging down the fledgling prosperity in the late 1930's.

The economy today is too international and diversified to be effected much by stimulus packages. The only good the gov can do is regulate against capitalist abuses like the sub-prime crisis and even then it has to be very careful.


Feedfwd
Good points all...

I guess I was trying to say that the candidates can't deliver on many of the big the promises that they're making. I do acknowledge that the office carries with it significant power.

Government always makes things worse.
The Subprime Bailout is only the latest in a long list of examples. A borrower who couldn't qualify for a regular rate loan because he is deemed by some objective standard as incapable of making payments of $X is suddenly deemed able to make payments that are higher, like $1.5X. Who thought of that brilliant idea?

As a result, some borrowers (surprise, surprise) default when they can't make the payments. The government then steps in and gives the borrower who is not making his payment a reduced rate that he can make. A borrower who IS making his payment honors his contract and makes higher payments when the rate adjusts. By adding insult to injury, the government's bailout punishes the responsible and rewards the opposite, and behavior that is rewarded is likely to be repeated (so what else is new).

Worst of all, it sets a precedent that contracts are worthless.

Now that the government has the ability to nullify the underlying contracts, investors are going to be reluctant to purchase bonds backed by mortgages.

That's bad news for everyone, especially for future borrowers.

Comments
1) Remember that the Constitution applies to the FEDERAL government only. Anything outside of it can be regulated by states if the people choose to do so.

2) Drug companies also have to make up for the price controls set by foreign governments like Canada. Those differences come out of US pockets.

3) Overregulation and taxing - these make everything more expensive. And they hinder the free market. A current issue in CO is revoking the Blue Laws against the sale of liquor on Sundays and in grocery stores. Should the government really be in the business of telling stores when they can be open and what can they sell? Grocery stores can't sell liquor (only 3.2 beer and wine coolers), and liquor stores can't sell snacks and food. And why can't I buy a car on Sunday? The Blue Laws were repealed for all products except for cars and liquor, they should finish the job and get government out of it all together.

4) Having worked on a Sarbanes-Oxley IT project last summer, I can verify that this law is only a money-maker for lawyers, auditors, and IT people. It's insane. We had to create an application that allowed a large company to track every application and every system folder each employee had access to. 50,000 people, 80 applications, and untold numbers of system folders. We also had to give them the ability to say "if a person has access to this application, then that person can't have access to this other application". It's ridiculous government intervention into company operations.

Lilly
Hate to disappoint you, but the economy is doing fine, and incomes in all segments of the population are on the rise. Check it out:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB12014785549482 0719.html

http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=11001 0855

If you really want to unleash the economy and get government out of the way, you'd get behind the FairTax:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

No income tax, a prebate on sales tax upto the poverty level, and prices stay essentially the same.

On second thought: One possibility
Actually, there is one government program that has possibilities.

Hillary should sponsor a government program in which she would teach the poor how to make it BIG and quick in cattle futures. Just think. With this program and a modest $1,000 per poor person, she could wipe out poverty in only a year.


LL
"Drug companies also have to make up for the price controls set by foreign governments like Canada. Those differences come out of US pockets."

Boulder-dash, these countries negotiate better prices and Bush believes in taxpayer subsidized R&D.

Canada - "What the free market will bare."

USA - "What the taxpayer will bare."

Ron Paul = conservative??
I think it's laughable when people tout Ron Paul as the only true conservative in the race.

He's an extremely economic conservative, and an extremely social liberal... i.e. he's a libertarian, just like Stossel.

Every conservative on TH commends Stossel when he talks about limited govt, but what would happen when Stossel starts talking about his views on the govt regulating gay marriage and abortion?

What is a conservative?
Syler's post begs the question.

Is a conservative defined by the ends he desires or the means he chooses to get there.

Ron Paul and many libertarian minded folks abhor drug abuse, abortion, gay marriage, prostitution, and a whole host of things that conservatives generally oppose. The difference is that libertarians like Ron Paul have seen the system fail when it decides to implement a government war on drugs, prostitution, or whatever. They see another means or path to get there. One approach is to get the federal government out of it and let it be handled locally. Some communities may decide these vices are OK and like-minded people are free to locate in those communities. Other communities can outlaw them and residents of those communities need to desist or suffer the consequences. Many people of conservative persuasion consider abortion the same as murder. However, you may note that murder is prosecuted as a state crime, not a federal crime.

I will grant you that there are hedonist social liberals who are attracted to the libertarian banner because they want to be able to take recreational drugs or whatever. However, there are many libertarians who simply believe there is a better way to promote and obtain conservative values without the overbearing intervention of the federal government.

Ron Paul may be a lot of things, but he is NOT for abrtion on demand or recreational drug abuse. His libertarian position on those issues should not be confused by conservatives as being a liberal POV.

Presidents Can't Manage the Economy
TRUE!

With a Global Economy on a multi-level playing field, only helter-skelter and despair will be what our economy will experience until that multi-level playing field becomes a more even-level playing field. America is in trouble, for technology alone cannot sustain it for long.


lilly
All of what you mentioned can be provided on the market. There's no need for a government at all.

in re the article
Your premise that there isn't anything a president or a government can do for an economy is not quite true. The fact is that a government can always choose to get out of the way of the economy. Doing anything else causes the economy to either slow down or worse tank.

And to quote a character in a Frank Herbert novel "He who can destroy a thing controls that thing" is true of economies. In the case of the US causing our economy to tank does serious damage to economies around the world in fact the world economy takes a nasty hit. So when asked what the president should do about the economy...lower taxes, reduce regulation and reduce fees. Basically, get the heck out of the way.

Uncle alby
"Unless you go to the Other Place for stealing someone else's time and money to support your causes. Which is effectively what you're doing when you advocate government hand-outs."

********

Oh you "I hate taxes" people sure do know how
to put things. But I will take my chances.

All governments tax and all governments with any
economy at all use a portion of the taxes for
welfare.

Ladykrystyna
"Our Founding Fathers hated government, despised government. They were not anarchists but they had a healthy distrust of it and we have lost that healthy distrust. We trust too much now and if we don't wake up, all will be lost."

***

Where in heaven's name did you get that idea?

Love your paranoia. It suits you well.


viruddh - - -
UA: "Unless you go to the Other Place for stealing someone else's time and money to support your causes. Which is effectively what you're doing when you advocate government hand-outs."

V: "Oh you "I hate taxes" people sure do know how
to put things."

Thank you. I do try to learn techniques from you "I love controlling my neighbor" people.

V: "But I will take my chances."

Hey, it's your Immortal Soul.

I'm sure St. Peter will love hearing about your picking your neighbor's pocket for a "worthy cause."



V: "All governments tax and all governments with any
economy at all use a portion of the taxes for
welfare."

And all robbers steal. This is supposed to be an argument?

Shall we say instead that governments that tax the least enjoy the strongest economies? That there is a documented correlation between the levels of economic freedom and prosperity?

Have you taken a close look at the economies of North Korea and South Korea?

Zapdoodat
If you want to know why prices are different in Canada vs. the U.S., look into the demographics. We have 9 times more people than they do, making about 30% more income. And on average, the price of drugs is about 30% more expensive in the U.S. It's called price discrimination. It might not seem "fair" to you, but if there were one market for the U.S. and Canada, the price in Canada would just go up and Canadians would get screwed.

Uncle Alby
The bottom line is you do not want to put yourself out for your fellow man. You can
call your self-justification anything you want
and you can call the liberal altruism anything
you want, but that is the bottom line.

War bringing up economy
I guess WW2 had nothing to do with ending the great depression? At least back then it got us out of the isolationist funk that we seem to be headed back towards.

This is classic conservatism
I quote:

"Government power is force: the ability to fine and imprison people. "

That is the model of conservative thinking, to wit: people are bad and must be punished to make society work. That equals, "we gotta whip them boys to keep them working! Them boys lazy."

That is not a modern model of society, sorry.

Has this idiot, Stoessel, ever heard of providing education, free of charge to all citizens? If he claims to think that peoples confidence in their future is neither a result of government actions or that the peoples' willingness to buy goods are a result of their confidence, then he's a liar.

The stablizing function of government employment is sine qua non of any economy. Pinochet and the Chicago boy completely destroyed the economy of Chile until Pinochet decided on a massive employment program. Chile, still one of the strongest economies of South America, has never relinquished the government ownership of the Copper mines, which Allende achieved.

Oh, I've got an idea, let's let Enron run the whole country. They were really good, weren't they?

Believe me, I live in California, and I know how good they were at taking over the job of Energy regulators. Wonderful...They deliberately closed generators to raise the price of energy. I watched every second of it.

I just can't believe that after that history there is one single brain-dead scum bag willing to claim that free economy works.


viruddh
"The bottom line is you do not want to put yourself out for your fellow man."

The bottom line is YOU DON'T KNOW JACK about how much I put myself out for my fellow man. Nor is my "putting out" at all relevant to the issue.

What is relevant is that I don't come to YOUR house to drag YOU out to conscript YOUR labor or steal YOUR money to pay for whatever charities I support. Whatever and whomever I help, I do so with MY resources by MY choice.

Charity at the point of a gun is NOT CHARITY. "Government Charity" is an oxymoron.

The very best way you can help your fellow man is to GET GOVERNMENT OUT OF HIS WAY.

trughes - ''providing education...''
--
"...free of charge to all citizens...."


Oh, yeah. Real "free of charge."

Why do I get the feeling that "trughes" is living in his parents' basement, and has never so much as *READ* a municipal property tax invoice, much less paid such a levy?

Or attended a school board meeting, or looked into the local government/"public" school budget, or even bothered to learn the estimated per-pupil expenditure his local school district is making this year.

Son, I went to *MEDICAL SCHOOL* on a lower annual tuition than my township schoolboard is expending every year for each of the kids living in my community, even adjusting for inflation.

Now, would *ANYBODY* in my community pay the exhorbitant property taxes we suffer to support this white elephant of a school system if it weren't for the fact that "Government power is force: the ability to fine and imprison people"?

Any putz who sincerely believes (as you obviously do) in "Government as Santa Claus" needs a little bit of real-life experience dealing with government - at any level: local, state, or federal.

Government is goons with guns.

Always was, always will be.

And anyone who wants to use government power "to do good" is not only naive but criminally negligent from the git-go.

--

altruism
Altruism is diseased thinking.

It insults the nature of the individual being "given" anything as it sends the message, "you are too ______ to take care of yourself"

It reflects the "giver" as arrogant, self-serving, and condescending as if he or she knows what others need to live by or how one "should" live

It's fraud at all levels since its very motivation is only that of self-interest to satisfy your own personal agenda

There are no interests that are not self-interests

Manage your own life; be personally accountable for your choices; be able to respond to those choices mentally, emotionally, physically and financially or don't make the choice; leave other people to figure out their own lives with no self-serving arrogant help from you

Deception
"The bottom line is you do not want to put yourself out for your fellow man"

The person invoking this idea is a fraud.

The behavior and motivation behind such deception is one of self-aggrandizing, contempt for others ability to manage their lives; and belief that you know how ALL people SHOULD live their lives.

"Look at me; look at how great I am; look at how much I care; look what I do that you don't do" - all canards of condescension. It's control and manipulation feigned as support and benevolence.

viruddh
You wrote: "Where in heaven's name did you get that idea?

Love your paranoia. It suits you well."

Oh, I don't know, I get those ideas by reading about US History, the founding of this country, the Constitution.

The idea that the government that governs least, governs best. The fact that many of the founding fathers did NOT want a strong centralized FEDERAL government for fear of it doing exactly what it's doing now?

Where do you get your information from, a Cracker Jack box?

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me!

scooternyc -- altruism --
I'm not as down on altruism as you are, apparently.

I believe they've discovered some instances of altruism in the animal kingdom. There are cases where it helps the survival of the species.

So lets assume for the sake of argument that there is a survival aspect to altruism. Humans, after all, are social animals. We selfishly inter-depend on each other to satisfy our own individual needs. It may yet be provable that a certain amount of altruism can actually help the community survive, thus ensuring the survival of the species.

BUT --

That CERTAINLY doesn't mean it's a good idea to have "altruism" by the force of government! That's not altruism, that's extortion.

ladykrystyna --
"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me!"

I don't know about you, but I AM paranoid and they ARE out to get me!

I can't smoke where I want or what I want . . .
I can't have trans fat . . .
I can't drive without a seatbelt . . .
I can't ride my bike without a helmet . . .
I can't sell candy without an "A" on my wall . . .
(no joke, it's the craziest thing -- the Health Department has to inspect Home Depot because they sell pre-packaged candy and potato chips!)

The list of "I can't" gets longer every day!

Who's to say they're NOT out to get me?? ??

trughes - ''providing education...''
Did you just seriously use Allende and Pinochet as economic geniuses??? WOW! great examples, Allende STOLE the copper mines and Pinochet was charged with, you guessed it, tax evasion... oh, besides torture, murder, assasination, forced disappearances, and embezzlement....great example of Government by the gun if you ask me.
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