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Wednesday, February 06, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
USA Makes Adoption Harder
by John Stossel
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Do you want to rescue an abandoned child and give him a loving home?

Don't even try, says the U.S. State Department.

That's not exactly what the bureaucrats said, but it's close. The State Department says the Guatemalan adoption system "unduly enriches" so-called baby brokers and that "Guatemala has not established the required central authority to oversee intercountry adoption."

"Central authority"? This from our government? They sound like Soviet apparatchiks.

Last December, the U.S. consul even butted his way into the Guatemalan Congress to make sure a sweeping new adoption law was up to American standards. The law is designed to put those profit-making brokers out of business by making adoption a government monopoly. But to thousands of kids awaiting adoption, a government monopoly could be a death sentence.

Yes, there have been horror stories about adoption fraud. Some children were stolen from families. This is horrible, but far from the norm. Out of more than 100 cases of alleged "baby stealing," only five were confirmed as true, says Guatemalan journalist Marta Yolanda Diaz-Duran. That's five crimes versus about 4,000 legal adoptions from Guatemala in 2006 alone. Guatemala has been the second leading source of adopted children coming to America -- after China and ahead of Russia. The adoption-broker system -- which relied on entrepreneurs providing a service for a fee -- worked well enough that Guatemala was an adoption success story.

American adoption agencies (charging a fee) worked with Guatemalan adoption brokers (also charging a fee) to match willing couples with the right children. There was a near-perfect safeguard against baby stealing: two rounds of DNA tests to prove the biological mother gave consent.

The process wasn't cheap -- parents paid $25,000 or more, and brokers who spent months or years jumping though the bureaucratic hoops -- made, horrors, profit! Hence our State Department's outrage about adoptions that "unduly enrich." The sentiment was captured perfectly by a UNICEF representative who huffed to The New York Times that adoption "has become a business instead of a social service."

Oh, yes, everyone loves "social service." But when adoption was a government-run social service in Guatemala, the results were disastrous.

I happened to be in Guatemala City last month visiting the Americas' most free-market university, Universidad Francisco Marroquin. UFM's president took me to visit Ines Ayau, a nun who runs an orphanage that was formerly in the hands of the government. The children are well cared for now, but before her church took over, Ayau said, the government staff had forced some children into prostitution. The orphanage itself was rat-infested and without electricity, and the government used the facility to funnel money to cronies. "Thirty-six persons were working, (but) 105 were on the payroll,"

Yet U.S. officials want adoption back in the hands of government?!

There's little reason to expect the current government to do much better. Guatemala is one of the more corrupt nations in the world, 111th out of 179 countries, says Transparency International.

Even if the new bureaucracy isn't corrupt, there's little chance it will process adoptions as quickly as the brokers did because without profit, it has no incentive to move the kids through the cumbersome adoption process. When other countries have put adoption in government hands, adoptions slowed or stopped. Paraguay went from sending more than 400 kids to the U.S. in 1996 to sending zero in 2006.

That's a tragedy.

It may make some people uncomfortable that a middleman charges $5,000 to arrange an adoption, but profit isn't evil.

Someone has to be compensated for arranging the DNA tests and leading hopeful parents past the government's obstacles. The orphanages need funds. If some Americans are willing to pay even $50,000 to adopt, that's not a bad thing. NGOs, politicians and bureaucrats may call it disgusting "human trafficking," but I call it finding love for children who desperately need it.

Guatemala has followed America's lead, and now thousands of abandoned Guatemalan kids face spending their childhood in orphanages. Many could have found a home in the U.S. if only government -- American and Guatemalan -- had stayed out of the way.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Pro-life hypocrisy and pet goat
Since Pet Goat hasn’t responded to my question about his allegation that prolifers are hypocritical, I’ll just jump right into that from the domestic policy angle.

One of the biggest contributors to the American foster care system is drug addicted birth mothers. Substance abuse often results in brain damage during gestation and physical abuse or neglect after a child is born.

I mentioned in a previous post my friend Susan (who tried to adopt 11 of her 12 foster kids.) She had been a labor and delivery nurse for one the of county hospitals in Phoenix before she came home to birth and raise her biological children.

One meth addict was delivering her 8th baby in 10 years. The OB assisting had delivered the last 4. She was never prosecuted. CPS took each drug addicted baby at birth. The OB was so frustrated when she came in to deliver #8, he told her, “If you sign this piece of paper, I’ll tie your tubes for free.” The woman was completely out of her mind on meth but signed the paper and the OB tied her tubes during her c-section at no additional charge. Obviously it is illegal to do so, but it is hard to find anyone who would complain about it.

The Pro Life Issue

Pro lifers believe children in the womb have exactly the same rights as children who have been born. So, pro-life groups often support proposed legislation that would prosecute a mother who uses illicit drugs during pregnancy the same as a mother who would give her child, already born, illicit drugs. Guess who often opposes that legislation? Guess why? Because once you establish equal rights for children in and out of the womb, it doesn’t take much to make abortion illegal and prosecute aborting mothers and physicians.

Center for Arizona Policy is one organization that has proposed this type of legislation.

The Free Market Doesn't Work
Guatemala has had serious problems with this issue for a long time. Stossel and many of the other readers in this forum seem to believe that the "free market" is the answer to all of our societal woes. The Guatemala case exemplifies precisely how damaging such a blind ideological philosophy can be. The author discounts the irregularities based upon a Guatemalan journalist. This individual either has a vested interest in the adoption market, or else she has her head in the sand. Multiple reports in 2000 uncovered multiple cases of fraud, baby swapping, and trafficking. Why do you think that the U.S. has implemented the double DNA test (which doesn't really solve the problem at all - just forces "adoption professionals" to do their trick twice instead of once)? Guatemala is the only country in the world where the double DNA test is in place. In 2001 embassy officials admitted to having serious doubts about how babies came to be available for adoption there. However, they were powerless to affect change because of they were in compliance with U.S. law. In the 2006 book, "Outsiders Within" adult adoptees from around the world expose the true circumstances surrounding their own adoptions. Framed as an act of selfless love by caring Americans, many adoptions in the past were really based upon deceit, fraud, or simply misunderstanding. A recent study in the Marshall Islands, for example found that 70% of relinquishing parents (from 2 decades ago) believed that they were giving up their children only temporarily, when in reality their relinquishments were forever. Private attorneys in Guatemala hire "baby finders", who most often seek out the most vulnerable and economically marginalized members of a society. The problem in Guatemala could be easily remedied if just even 20% of their fees were collected and used for the creation of an neutral and independent authority.

child limits abroad
Russia and Korea only allow 5 children total in a home. That means the total of minors biological and adopted in the home when the child is placed.

Requirements have change over the years, so you have to keep current throughout the process.

Part of our contract with Korea stated that we were legally required to notify the agency if I became pregnant, and we would be immediately eliminated until our biological baby turned 9 months old, and then we could begin again. We could not begin the process for a second Korean child until the first's adoption had been finalized (9-11 months after arrival.) It's done so the family and new child can adjust and transition into their new lives without the demands of another adjusting child in the home.

Another homeschool mom in my homeschool art class was pregnant with her 4th biological child when she adopted her 13 year old daughter from Russia. (Anya spent 4 years in an orphanage.) The mom has since had a baby and is expecting another, but cannot adopt from Russia or many other countries now that there are 7 of them.

Another of the moms in the group was looking into adopting from Russia, but became pregnant with her 5th and was eliminated. She hosted a sibling set that her brother's family adopted. Russians sometimes send older children to the US to meet prospective adoptive families in person.

I think I remember China limits to 5, but there have been a few cases of exceptions made.

So, it is something else to consider if you want to adopt.

lily
To Lilly:
Your wrong if you think universal health care is going to take care of everyone. ;; My son-in-law is Dutch and the encourage abortion in high risk cases because of expense. ; If you drank too much or smoked too much you will suffer the consequences no liver or lungs for you. My daughter is in the medical field and knows the British system dormitories are the standard rooms. Now in the UK they are saying diabetics need to take care of themselves. There are negative things that happen through nationalized medicine. Here in America we like to anecdotal stories and base a whole system on them, but there are anecdotal stories of horrors in national health care systems. Holland has legalized euthanasia people have been euthanized without their consent don't doubt that.

Indonesian babies
I lived in Indonesia for 13 years and wanted to adopt a baby, but was unable. It is not just the US government the Indonesian govt. has tons of rules that will keep these children in orphanages until they are in their teens. The regulations arent against abuse but about how many children you already have, how old you are 40 is the cut off date Do you already have a boy and a girl it is a nightmare and these babies and children stay in these orphanages until adulthood. The catholic orphanages were the best and gave the children educational opportunities, but other than that they were just babysitting factories

No biggie, kid shop China Russia instead
Chinese & Russian babies are better anyway, less inbreeding, higher IQs, lower diabetes, cancer & obesity rates too.

If Guatemala wants to eat their poor babies let 'em.


governments between rock and hard place
As to the specifics of the State Department and it's Guatemalan adoption system, there are 2 separate issues involved.

Issue #1
Are the 5 children stolen and sold just the tip of the iceberg, or are they extremely rare exceptions?

From the State Department's point of view, they cannot participate in human trafficking for both a legal and moral reasons. Once it comes to their attention that this is happening, they have act on that information.

Issue #2
Can it be reasonably expected of a country like Guatemala with the severe economic problems facing them to develop some sort of centralized authority to handle the overwhelmingly large number of children desperately needing homes NOW?

No one is in favor of stealing and selling human beings, but the unrealistic solution proposed to "keep children safe" is creating a different dangerous situation for children.

So, making the all or nothing proposal, you a get a deficit, and that is in the end more problematic.

There has to be another way to handle this. There has to be some way developing countries with extremely limited resources and very little civic infrastructure can satisfy the US's insistence on legitimate adoptions through reputable channels.

We need an "idea man" and we need him now.

The Pet Goat
Are you referring to State Department's Guatemalan adoption Policy under the Bush Administration, or are you referring to the choice of Americans seeking to adopt outside of the Foster Care system in the US?

Pro-life?
Typical GOP Pro-life decision: anything to protect the unborn, but nothing to help a child in need.


Reply to Guatemalan Adoptive Mom 3
It's been two years since her arrival and the only one we have been asked is, "How much did she cost?" I replied with a planned response, "Nowhere near what she is worth."

Our adoption agency gave us a small stack of their cards. They suggested if anyone ever asks an inappropriate question or if we simply choose not to answer for any reason, we can hand them a card and say, "If you would like to know more about international adoption you can contact our agency."

One thing I would warn all adoptive parents to avoid is a generally defensive attitude. One of the moms in our homeschool art class has 2 Chinese daughters. She ALWAYS assumes the worst (not just about the adoption thing) and it is rubbing off on her kids.

Before we met defensive mom, we met another homeschool mom with Chinese daughters at our American Girl book club. These girls were homeschooled, but on Sundays they attended a Chinese Christian church with a mostly immigrant population and went to the English rather than the Mandarin worship service. Afterward they attended Chinese language and culture classes. They would proudly tell everyone they met what new Chinese words they were learning.

That was my daughters' experience with Chinese adoptees. It was perfectly logical and natural for my oldest to ask the oldest daughter of defensive mom, "Oh, do you speak Chinese?" She became instantly irritated and said, "I was adopted as a toddler, how could I possibly remember Chinese!?" My daughter explained. It was an awkward moment and it didn't have to be.

Reply to Guatemalan Adoptive Mom 2
(testing...testing... will it post this time?)

I would also emphasize NOT getting emotionally charged about it. I would make sure my child understands most people are not trying to attack them. Most people are just ill informed. If I am not 100% completely comfortable with her being adopted and of another race no matter what people say to me, she may get the wrong signal. That being said, I would not tolerate flat out rudeness or cruelty.

In our parenting classes with our agency we listened to 2 different adult adoptees talk about various aspects of their experiences. I have also read a great deal of writings by adult adoptees and studies of adult adoptees ranging in age from late teens to middle age.

ALL of them experienced negative comments of some kind from schoolmates. Most of the time it was in elementary school when it was the most severe according to one study I read. This matched the adult adoptee testimonials and comments from The Gathering, a conference by and for Korean adoptees.

We had been warned to prepare for cruel and tactless comments before the child arrived and were given a list of the most common tactless comments adoptees hear.

"Was your real mom a prostitute?"
"Was your real dad an American soldier stationed in Korea?"
"Why didn't your real parents want you?"
"You know, there's a surgery now that can fix your eyes."
"Thank God your mom didn't murder you before you were born."
"Isn't it terrible how kids like you were just thrown away in those backward countries?"
"How much did you cost?"

You get the idea.

Reply to Guatemalan Adoptive Mom 1
I have been giving your 9:49 AM post a great deal of thought asking myself what I think I would do in your situation. I think I would begin by assuming a situation like it WILL happen.

There is no way to control what stupidity will fall out of the mouths of thoughtless people, so I have had the "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst" approach so far, and I think that might work for this too.

I think, if it were me, I would begin preparing my child for exactly that type of comment and teaching her a prepared response as she got into the early elementary years. I think it would go something like this:

"Some people have strange ideas about international adoption. They don't know anything about it first hand, and sometimes they hear about oddball, out of the ordinary situations on the news.

Around the time we adopted you, about 5 bad people stole babies away from their birth mothers. The news made a big deal out of it because it was such a terrible thing to do. Too bad the news doesn't tell people about the thousands and thousands of adopted kids like you who are honestly put up for adoption by birth parents who want them to a have a good life with their adopted families."

Then I would explain in detail specific things the agency required (like DNA tests, etc.) to reassure her everything was done legitimately.

"Sometimes people say wrong things they think are true. Adopted kids sometimes are the ones who are stuck correcting myths. Someone may actually say something about you being stolen and sold. If they do, just laugh sweetly and tell them, 'You heard that old urban legend? That was about 5 babies out of tens of thousands of honest adoptions. Huh, I didn't know that one was still floating around.'"

insanity of international adoption 2
In 2005 a friend of mine had a brother adopting a sibling set from Russia. Because of legislation in Russia and anti American attitudes, many American agencies that had previously been licensed by Russian adoption agencies were not being re-certified. Some think the Russian adoptees in the US talking about their lives in Russian orphaneges were giving Russian bad press and they were trying to phase out international adoption. Some people caught up in the system were scrambling to get with agencies who still had certification. That slowed down some Russian adoptees coming home to the US.

Since Russia is one of the largest "exporters" of adoptees, everyone going through a Korean adoption got a little nervous.

At that time the wait for Chinese adoptees was getting longer meaning fewer adoptees were arriving in the US annually. Again, adoptive parents of Korean kids watched that closely.

If the numbers from other countries dropped below Koean levels, people feared the quota number would be dropped accordingly and families would go longer before being united.

Since we had considered a Guatemalan adoption we were familiar with the human trafficking rumors. It's actually been rumored for quite some time.

We also knew of an American missionary couple with connections to our church who were in the process of adopting a Romanian child while they lived in Romania. Human trafficking allegations were what stopped international adoption there, and this couple had fostered their daughter for years waiting to finalize. They were never allowed to, so they cannot leave Romania with her until she is legally an adult (a few years from now.)

The thought of being matched, but never allowed to have our child come home was not something we were willing to risk. Everyone has different criteria and that was one of many different factors that turned us to Korea.

insanity of international adoption 1
The basic misunderstanding by those who have never gone through any adoption process is that they apply logic and reason to it. Anyone who has gone through it understands logic and reason do not apply to all aspects of adoption.

What people don't realize is that adoption policy in one country can have a negative impact on adoptees in another country.

Korea is known as the "well oiled machine" of international adoption because it is much more smooth, predictable, and efficient than other countries. It's all relative.

Korea refuses to be the largest "exporter" of international adoptees, to "Save Face" internationally. That's the big motivation behind their quota system. 2500 adoptees leave each year. Once #2500 leaves, no other child leaves the country until the next year.

We were matched to our daughter in Oct. 2005. The quota was met in Nov. 2005. That meant everything came to a screeching halt on the Korean side and no contact could be made with the Korean agency. Even processing her travel papers stopped. The Korean agency stopped taking calls and faxes from the American agency. In January things started up again and she arrived Feb. 2006.

We were lucky. In 2004 the quota was met in AUGUST. No adoptees left Korea even though ALL paperwork had been completed in both countries. Those families were not united until January of 2005.

To AFC
Love your book!

Guatemalan Adoption
To Katie's Mom, Mia's Mom, Kelly, Kathy, SciGal Gaut Adoptive Mom, FKASM, Kelly Ann, Quiver8, toritasmadre, RCM, and Kelly from GuatAdopt -

Thanks for your kinds words. Sometimes I am amazed at how people will sling such hurtful, irresponsible words around without thinking about how harmful those words may be to others. I never would intentional write words to hurt someone - incognito or not. You guys have shown class and kindness.

To John P. - I am praying your daughter comes home to you.

To Lolly, JDW and Sally - I am praying that your hearts grow with acceptance and tolerance - similar to that of the Grinch. Remember when his heart grew ten sizes? If only that weren't fiction.

The future of international adoption
My name is Filis Casey, and I am the founder of Alliance for Children (a non-profit international adoption agency based in Massachusetts) and I was quite moved by your article. I am terribly concerned that children will remain in orphanages and that the end of international adoption is in sight. Speaking on behalf of the non-profit adoption sphere, as a group we are scared and don’t know if there is anything we can do to stop other countries from suffering the same fate Guatemala has. My book, Born in Our Hearts, is a compilation of positive adoption stories that give hope to those children currently without families. We all fear that that continuation of that happiness will not be possible and it is frightening that as professionals we do not know what to do. I respect your opinion Mr. Stossel, and I think we need someone like you who is reputable to draw more attention to the issue at hand. As you well know, your colleagues have also covered adoption stories, and their past reports have had unbelievable impacts on the adoption community. The adoption process has undergone a lot of change, and what saddens me is that I feel the other countries’ governments are not well-equipped enough to devote themselves to ensuring these orphaned children are put into loving homes. The regulations imposed by the Hague on these countries create an enormous set of challenges, and the only people who suffer from this bureaucracy are the waiting children. I would be more than willing to discuss this topic further, and to spread awareness of the current problems with the adoption system.

Profit
Profits do not disregard the health of children. Like any other business, those negotiating adoptions want repeat and referral business. If it is reported that children are mistreated or the adoptors do not get what they expect, the negotiators will lose business. This is the basis of a free market economy.

Guatemalan Adoption
Why did I adopt from Guatemala? Because that is where my daughter was.

And who is going to start putting the needs of the children (all children - of any race, creed, color, birth country) FIRST?

UNICEF plays dirty, as does the state - The decisions being made should be left up to people who truly care. And it is obvious who does and who does not.

It seems to me that the majority of the negative comments here have less to do with adoption, and instead serve as an illustration of ugly characteristics that include racism, ignorance, and prejudice.

I am so blessed to have been given the chance to raise such an awesome child. She is the strongest, smartest, most loving person I know.

Seems to me that some of you here could be tuaght a lesson by my two year old!

Guatemalan Adoption
Why did I adopt from Guatemala? Because that is where my daughter was.

And who is going to start putting the needs of the children (all children - of any race, creed, color, birth country) FIRST?

UNICEF plays dirty, as does the state - The decisions being made should be left up to people who truly care. And it is obvious who does and who does not.

It seems to me that the majority of the negative comments here have less to do with adoption, and instead serve as an illustration of ugly characteristics that include racism, ignorance, and prejudice.

I am so blessed to have been given the chance to raise such an awesome child. She is the strongest, smartest, most loving person I know.

Seems to me that some of you here could be tuaght a lesson by my two year old!

Lookism
My younger sister has two children who surprise everyone who sees them, even now that they are in their mid twenties -- because they have Cree Indian characteristics that skipped two generations. (Among other characteristics they have epithelial folds, or what Archie Bunker would call "slant-eyes"). My sister finally tired of having nosy people ask her if they were adopted or if her husband was "Chinese" and started answering "I have a Chinese mailman."

Among us five girls we show many ethnic characteristics. Personally I look like a Swede. Daddy's family were what was euphamistically called "pirates" -- people who lived a freebooting lifestyle and married women of the place where they ended up -- and we find it fascinating to track the ethnic background in our various faces. America used to be proud of its "mutt" ancestry. Why would we not still be proud if our adopted children were ethnic in appearance too?

Addressing availability of foster kids 5
Cherie- (my friend whose story I referenced in earlier emails)
Her four biological kids are 2, 3, 6, and 7 years older than her foster son. Three years ago, James, a 3 year old black child was placed with them. CPS claimed they only knew he had been removed from a crack house at 18 months and had been in the same foster home with a single middle aged woman who couldn’t adopt him.

As I mentioned, soon after placement he was taken and given to a more “diverse family” who changed their minds about him a week later. Then Cherie and her family moved to KY (for a job) before the adoption was finalized here in AZ. KY pulled James’ records. Here’s what they really knew, but did not tell Cherie:

1) James was a crack baby
2) James was removed from a crack house at 18 months
3) The single foster mother could not handle James, so every 3 weeks he was sent into respite care to give the foster mom a break EVERY FOURTH WEEK OF HIS LIFE from 18 months to 3.5 years old. No, it was not the same respite care foster family each time. Cherie’s family was on respite care rotation when they met him.
4) James has severe cognitive problems and no impulse control of any kind. He is violent and aggressive and big for his age.
5) James had not been sent to any specialist for his problems and had not received the therapy he needed.
6) James cannot be unsupervised for even a moment without him harming someone or something.

It didn’t take long for Cherie to realize James could not function in their family. Imagine NEVER being able to take your eyes off of a child because you have to physically jump between him and his next victim.

After a year of specialists and intensive physical and cognitive therapy they returned James to the foster care system in KY when they were told a couple with no other children wanted to adopt a special needs foster kid.

Addressing availability of foster kids 4
Tara- (a mom at my church who will be homeschooling her kids in the next few years)

She had a 1 year old daughter when a sibling set of a 4 month old and her toddler brother were placed with them. They were both covered with bruises on their heads and torsos. They applied to adopt them. That was more than THREE YEARS AGO. She has since birthed a little boy and the adoption of her foster kids is still not finalized even though the birth mother with substance abuse and mental problems has not complied with the requirements to have them returned.

The birth mother’s extended family, who has preference for placement, has petitioned the courts to allow the foster parents to adopt the children. It will go to trial in June of this year and CPS will recommend the foster parents be given the right to adopt them.


Addressing availability of foster kids 3
Susan-( homeschool mom that was part of one of the PE groups we were involved in every week as we adopted internationally 3 years ago)
She has 3 biological kids and her years of experience with being a labor and delivery nurse in a county hospital gave her a heart for children that were in foster care. She had 12-count then 12!-foster children placed with her over a 3 year span. She requested ONLY children available for adoption come into her home. She applied to adopt 11 of them. NONE were ultimately available for adoption and were all returned to their birth parent/extended family situations.

She played the system to get the other child placed with his siblings because some judges have biases against large families. This kid and his 4 other siblings were placed in 3 homes even though one couple who had 2 of them and no other kids petitioned the court to adopt all of them together. The judge said no because he thought no one could possibly handle 5 kids.

A former social worker Susan knew told her to have the other mom with two of the siblings and Susan to call the kids’ social workers and lie through their teeth saying they wanted the kids removed that day. (The dads took the kids out of the house for a fun activity so they would not overhear the phone calls.) Since it would create an emergency situation, and not enough foster families were available, the social workers would have to place the siblings with the family that petitioned the court to adopt them. I don’t know if they were allowed to adopt the kids, but at least for a while they all lived together in a home where they were wanted.

Susan is contenting herself with her 3 bio kids. The emotional drain of being attached to children taken from her and placed in potentially dangerous situations is more than she can take. Imagine how the kids feel.

Addressing availability of foster kids 2
Jasmine- ( friend in my moms group that met weekly for play dates 6 years ago)
She had a 2 year old biological son when her 6 year old foster son was placed with them. He had been in foster care since birth when his birthmother relinquished her rights. His birth father was homeless with substance abuse and mental problems. After 6 YEARS the father's rights had never been severed even though he had complied in no way with the requirements the State set to get him his son back.

As far as the social worker knew, the boy had been sexually abused by at least 3 different men over his years of bouncing from home to home. A month after he arrived in Jasmine’s home her biological son was diagnosed autistic. A week later she caught the 6 year old molesting her 2 year old. She had him removed and returned to the foster care system that day.

Addressing availability of foster kids 1
Most people far removed from these situations make a connection that is not necessarily true. Just because a child needs a loving home and there is proof the biological parents are abusive and neglectful, does not mean the child is available for permanent placement with an adoptive family. In theory, they SHOULD be available, but in reality they often are not.

While we were deciding how exactly to grow our family, I informally interviewed dozens of people. I sent my email address out to everyone I knew in addition to my homeschool email list (consisting of 1000 families at the time) asking that they share their adoption experiences good or bad with us or forward our email to someone who had adopted any child from anywhere.

I never got a positive response about adopting foster kids. Here were the stories-from the actual foster parents- I talked to then and a few I met afterward.

Moderate Mark - Moderation
*** "Much easier to yell socialist than to understand the problems isn't it." ***

Lilly wants government to control medicine. Do you deny it? I didn't just yell socialist as an ad hominem attack. Lilly clearly stated what she wants government to do. I called it for what it is.

However, you yelled "extremist" to me with no substantiation.

Does moderation mean that it is always the case that no one is right and no one is wrong? Is it always possible to split the difference on any issue and have a successful result?

A negotiated agreement which is primarily intended to make both sides equally happy, or equally unhappy (read: pander equally to both political constituents) is not a virtue and does not guarantee a plan that will work.


ModerateMark - Socialized Medicine
Socialist = Government controls the means of production

What response should we have when Hillary says that everyone will be forced to pay in? Shouldn't you be moving to the right?

Do you agree with Lilly that if the government runs the health industry, she will be able to see the doctor or doctors of her choice and they will be authorized to have the government pay for whatever procedures they deem needed?

Was my response a bit harsh? Maybe, but it is proportional to Lilly's naiviety and/or ignorance of how the health system works and nowhere nearly proportional to her blind belief that more government will solve any and all problems.

The other side of the story
This is a very complicated issue.

As an adoptive mom my stomach turns whenever there are news stories about the corrupt Guatemalan adoption system, not because the stories aren't true, but because people love sensationalism, so that's what our news reporters give them.

I am curious why humans hear one news story, or one example, and assume that the rest of the situations that are similar must be the same. I don't blame people, I probably do it too. I assume it comes from our sensationalist media fueled society, but who knows, it may be human nature.

It is really disturbing when it has to do with our child. I have a burning desire to stop these rumors and stories, not because they are false stories, but because people (who don't care a LICK about my child) then relate it to all Guatemalan adoptions and it taints Americans' view of who my son is and where he came from. I don't want him battling this all his life. It horrifies me that one day a "friend" of his in middle school may say, "My dad says you were stolen and sold." Can you imagine processing something like that as a pre-teen?! It is simply NOT true. It is disrespectful to his his birth country and family.

So, FINALLY, John presents the OTHER side of the story. No, not the whole story, but the OTHER side. A side that is important for people to hear.

THANK YOU JOHN!!!

Lilly - Your Physician????
*** "The arguments you use against nationalized care are invalid because the problems you set already exist---here. And they are coming to us courtesy of private insurance companies. You don't want Hillary Clinton deciding your medical care? I don't want Aetna or Humana or Blue Cross deciding mine. I want medical decisions to be made by my physicians." ***

YOUR PHYSICIANS? When the government takes over, they ARE NOT YOUR PHYSICIANS. They are the government's physicians.

Please tell me, in which of the following countries with socialized medicine does the government pay for whatever the physician orders? The UK, Canada, France?

Under socialized medicine, the phrase "your physician" will have the same meaning as "your IRS auditor".

lilly-white parents non-white kids 3
One child (about middle elementary school aged)asked me if we looked through a book and picked her out. Don't even get met started on how annoying it is that Americans use the same word "adoption" for expanding a family and buying a pet.

One woman told me, "Yeah, my dad was in the military. All the officers adopted Asian kids. It was like a status symbol or something." Her natural focus on herself caused her to ramble about her childhood and moving constantly and I had no opening to respond.

Fortunately for the children, people like jdw rarely make those types of comments in person.

lilly-white parents non-white kids 2
Race does matter, I cannot go anywhere with my youngest without people asking where she's from. It is written all over our faces that she's adopted. Last week was the first time she communicated being aware of other people's reaction to us.

We were sitting in a busy airport restaurant and she was looking all around. Then she said, "Mama, everybody looking at me." For a year she has noticed the difference between Asian and Caucasian faces. When saw an Asian person she used to point and say her own name. Now she says, "That's me, Mama."

I have never heard anyone say anything to us out of negative intentions, but sometimes people say the most tactless things.

"What is she?" I was so stunned by the question I didn't respond immediately, so they asked it differently, "I mean where is she from?"

A physicians assistant at one of her well visits asked, "Is your husband dark?" That one threw me for a second too, so I finally asked, "You mean like a Sith Lord?(Star Wars reference.) No, he's really a very nice guy." She looked confused and said, "What?" I explained my husband is Caucasian and we adopted her.

One Asian immigrant woman was playing what seemed like a weird game show with me. "Didn't you try to have any of your own?" I had to hold back a sarcastic response like, "Well, we got this couple's manual but we just couldn't figure out how to make our own baby. Thank God for adoption agencies!" Instead I said, "I have two birth children also." She asked, "Two boys, so you got a girl?" "No, they're all girls." I told her.


lilly-white parents non-white kids 1
Part of the issue is actually rarely talked about.

When we were considering international adoption we asked, "OK, political correctness aside, could we have a child of another race and make that child happy, or is it categorically problematic for the child?" We had no problem with the racial differences, but we would not be the only ones in the equation.

Not all white people feel comfortable asking that question.

I read a huge amount of information by adult adoptees. I think their perspective should be weighed heavily.

According to Dr. Lee's study, shockingly 25% of Asian adult adoptees in the US identify themselves as Caucasian. We were glad to see that 75% were comfortable about seeing themselves as Asian, and we wanted to know how to make our daughter comfortable with being ethnically Asian in a Caucasian American family and culture.

For the several studies I read and the summaries of The Gathering (conventions for Korean adoptees to discuss these issues freely) it seems that families that were warmly encouraging about Asian ethnic heritage had Korean children perfectly content with being Korean by birth and heritage and all American by culture. They were happy contented people with great family lives and they were the majority.

Then there were those whose parents either made everything about being Korean and/or adopted or who never acknowledged the kids as being Korean and/or adopted. Those adoptees had various issues.

lilly-White baby?
The race of the baby and grandparents was not mentioned in the email.

I have no idea if the child was white.

To formerly known
I am glad you brought up the opposition to adoption, especially transracial adoption, that comes from the black community. I do know about it and had included something about it in my post that got too long to fit so I deleted some of it and tried to delete selectively so that what remained would be cohesive. But you have made a good point. Transracial adoption was being done a lot in the early 1970's and it was indeed the black social workers who moved against it.

As for black-on-black adoption, you are right about that too. Informal adoption and/or family adoption is more normative in the black community.

Apart from availability, I think (personally) that a lot of white Americans still are held back from taking a black child because of racial stigma in communities. But that's a whole other topic. Look at the posts of jdw to this thread---if his neighbor adopts a Latino or Asian child and jdw thinks that child is "an exotic pet", God knows what he would call an adopted black child.

As mixed (birth) families become more usual maybe attitudes toward mixed (adoption) families will change too.

Good observation, lilly.
You touched on one of my pet subjects.

Ladies, get your act together and get serious about finding a high quality husband in your early-mid 20s if a family is a high priority for you.

I had 3 miscarriages before my 2 bio kids by age 25. My pregnancy with kid #2 and near fatal delivery due to unpredictable complications meant no more pregnancies. It took us 7 years to decide which route to take, get the funds in order, and complete the paperwork for our international adoption. It was that or get a surrogate.

Most countries have an age limit around 45 for the oldest spouse (similar to the biological clock) so make a note of it. My husband is 6 years older than me, so because of him, I have less time. International adoption is getting harder and parents are waiting longer. Few countries are available now (Romania and Guatemala) who knows what will happen in the future. Adoption has never been a quick easy fix for childlessness.

If you start a family after 30 and have unknown infertility problems, you are not likely having a larger family (3 or more) even if you really want one.

If a family is a seriously important issue, plan enough time to make other arrangements if things don't go smoothly. Otherwise you may have to take drastic measures that lead to extremely high risk pregnancies (triplets or more) because you won't have time to exhaust other less risky routes. You may be forced to consider astoundingly expensive means like surrogacy. Keep your options open.

You can go to college when the kids are in school and work until MUCH later in life than you can have babies. This is basic biology, not dogma or politics. Facts are facts. Weigh them and make a decision.

To lilly-so glad you asked
While I was going through my international adoption my best friend was taking the fos-adopt route.

Cherie and her family are all Caucasian. A black boy aged 3 was placed with them and they applied to adopt him. Four weeks later he was removed by his social worker because, "a more diverse family has priority."

The "more diverse family" was a Caucasian couple with four adopted black children, the youngest of which was about to graduate from high school. They took the little boy for a week, decided against starting over, and sent him back to the white family that ALREADY wanted him.

What most people don't realize is that few black newborns are placed for adoption at birth. Most enter the system AFTER being removed from their birth families by the State. Adoption outside of extended family is not as socially acceptable in the black community as it is in the white community. It reflects well on the black community that extended family often step up to the plate and help many of these children, but once a child is removed by the authorities, they are less in demand because of their age and abuse/neglect related issues.

In the 1970s there was a movement among BLACK social workers against placing black children in white homes, again because of the loss of culture. The resistance to black/white inter- racial families came largely from the black community.

To Hockey Goon
I once worked for a large reputable non-profit church-based agency that handled, among other things, adoptions. It was housed in a building (think: rent or mortgage payments, utilities, maintenance, insurance, parking for staff and clients, soap and paper towels for the bathrooms, office supplies). It had a staff (think: administrators, clerical staff, an accountant, ministers and social workers and psychologists and prison experts to carry out various programs, liaisons with universities if there is also an internship or training program going on). These people were employees (think: salary, benefits, gas mileage). There were other expenses (seminars, legal services, psychiatric and other medical consultations, travel, emergency assistance to clients). An agency may own vehicles, a whole new category of expense.

Having a good heart is well and good. But thinking about things in broad generalities doesn't get the job done, and complex situations don't have simple solutions. And "non-profit" definitely doesn't mean that no money ever shows its nasty face in the agency.

I can't think what you mean by church-based supervision that doesn't cost money. Were you perhaps thinking that the pastor's wife would do all of this on a volunteer basis, while her cookies are baking?

To Lolly: Age is Big in US Adoptions
Agency adoptions in the United States almost always set limits on the age of the adoptive parents. And while having a baby the natural way may happen quickly, realizing that you are not having a baby that way can take years.

So, imagine a couple that marries when they are 30 years old. They take a couple of years to (settle the marriage, buy a house, save some money) then begin trying to have a baby. Nothing happens; either conception doesn't occur or there may be a series of miscarriages. By then they are 36, 38, 40. They go to a fertility specialist. They have all kinds of tests and studies then decide to try various doctor-assisted ways of getting pregnant or sustaining a pregnancy. Nothing results in parenthood. Meanwhile the clock is ticking and now they are 44, 46. They make application to an agency. The adoption study goes forward. Now they are pushing 50.

Meanwhile Daddy's job disappeared or for some other reason he had to make a career change and the couple relocated to another state. New agency, possibly new rules. Years ago I had good friends who adopted when agencies would place a baby only with a couple of the same religion; a military rotation to a Southern state where few Jewish babies were available (my friends were Jewish) lost them three years in the process.

Or, one of the couple develops some kind of health problem which eventually is acceptable to the agency but in the meantime another year is lost while everybody gets tests and opinions and makes decisions.

The end result is that by the time all this happens, often a prospective adoptive couple in the United States is considered by agencies TOO OLD to be parents. I am not offering an opinion about this, just reporting what happens.

To formerlyknownashsmom
Let me guess: this in-demand newborn was white, yes?

Try the same exercise with a black baby. You won't find the same demand.

To Frog
1) Private insurance companies in the United States OFTEN refuse coverage because of a pre-existing condition. Example: Man with diabetic child and medical coverage through his job is laid off, finds another job, new job includes medical coverage---but not for him because of child's pre-existing diabetes. Old old old story.

2) Long waits here are not unusual here with private care: think, four months to see a specialist, surgery postponed three times for doctor's scheduling convenience, etc.

In addition, it is now routine for a doctor's prescription to be arbitrarily changed by the pharmacist, and without notification either to the doctor or patient. These changes are made according to demands by the private insurer.

More: length of stay in hospital, type of treatment, medications used, even length of time doctor can spend with patient---all decided not by doctor or hospital but by insurance company.

The arguments you use against nationalized care are invalid because the problems you set already exist---here. And they are coming to us courtesy of private insurance companies. You don't want Hillary Clinton deciding your medical care? I don't want Aetna or Humana or Blue Cross deciding mine. I want medical decisions to be made by my physicians.

Attitudes about adoption abroad
In Korea and Russia there is terrible stigma attached to adoption.

In Korea you are your DNA. Bloodlines matter to that Confucian society. Children born out of wedlock and their mothers are considered unworthy of an education (they must be adopted by a Korean man to register for school) marriage, and employment. There was a Korean immigrant couple at our parenting class during the adoption process. If they went through with adopting their families were threatening to cut off all contact with them.

Of the around 3,000 Korean children placed for adoption in Korea annually, only 400 are adopted by Koreans. Those that are are never told they are adopted and their parents usually have little contact with extended family for fear their secret will be known.

We had friends who adopted from Russia and were told under no circumstances to tell any Russian outside of the agency and court that they were traveling to Russia to adopt. They were told to only say they were sightseeing. One adoptive mother in the group mentioned it on the plane headed there and got a VERY hostile reception from the Russian passengers.

I mentioned looking into adopting in front of my neighbor from Belarus. She said she was "horrified" I would do such a risky thing to my "real kids" because there was no way to know "what" we would get. She doesn't talk to me anymore.

The UN is against international adoption because it means removing a child from his/her culture. Let them waste away, so long as they keep their culture.

Reply to Kathy-been there
Our youngest daughter, who was born in Korea, was placed for adoption at 2 days old and went to an OUTSTANDING foster home until she arrived in the US at 7 months old.

We were warned by the attachment therapist who ran our American adoption agency that the babies grieve. They warned it would be unlike anything we had ever heard or seen. They warned that sleep problems would be severe for the first year. They were right.

She could not sleep for more than an hour and half at a time for about 3 months. She was afraid of my husband and would turn her back to him and scream if he got near her. Our social workers followed up until 9-11 months after placement (standard for Korea.)

We told them how angry she was and they said, "Of course she's angry. We took her away from the only Mommy she ever knew. Let her be angry-she's entitled. Love and support her, but let her get it out." Then, about a month after she arrived we hit the rage stage of grief.

On two separate occasions, for two hours, she threw herself around and made the most awful screaming, roaring, wailing sound. I had to sit on the floor with her to sort of hold her while she raged. We both cried and I told her how sorry I was that it had to be this way. I told her I would have come to get her the moment she was born, but they wouldn't let me.

My husband was comforting our older two because it was breaking their hearts to hear their baby sister so upset. The baby slept for four hours straight after that episode.

For the next three months we were lucky if she got four hours of sleep before she woke sometimes with night terrors. She would scream the most bone chilling screams with her eyes open but clearly was not aware of what was going on around her. There was no waking her up out of it no matter what I tried. It just ran its course while I held and rocked her.

She's 2.5 now and is a happy normal little girl. It's all worth it, but it is not easy.

Risks:domestic adoption-fertility treatm
If you choose to adopt in the US you can expect to pay for ALL of the birth mother's living expenses until a couple of months after delivery. The birth mother has the legal right to change her mind up to a couple of days after placing the child in the adoptive home. If she changes her mind there is no way to recoup the expenses. Starting over can be emotionally and financially devastating.

Since most adoptive families have limited funds they have to decide how best to spend them. Gambling on a birth mother who has not yet given up her parental rights is not a risk everyone is willing to take. Estimates are hard to come by, but private domestic adoption can easily cost $40,000 and up if you do not happen to know a birth mother who wants to place her baby with you directly.

If adoptive parents go abroad they are adopting a child whose birth parents have ALREADY placed them for adoption and are out of the picture.

Usually the fees are all clearly set, so there is no question as to the cost.

Fertility Treatments

Fertility treatments are also a gamble for some. In vitro attempts cost tens of thousands of dollars each and have about 30% success rates. Hiring a surrogate can run $30,000-$80,000.

Why do that when an international adoption can run roughly $17,000 and up and you know you will get a child at the end of the process?

Newborns are in demand
Last summer my homeschool email list that goes out to 1500 homeschool families had an unusual post.

A homeschooler who attended a church with a middle aged couple posted at their request. Their drug addicted daughter was 4 months pregnant with her 3rd baby. The first two were in the custody of their grandparents-the middle aged couple.

The grandparents realized they could not handle a 3rd child and were looking for a family to adopt asking only that that the adoptive parents cover the legal expenses and allow them to visit the child annually.

24 hours later the couple sent out another email. They had received over 200 emails from families on the list asking to be considered to adopt the baby. The couple was overwhelmed and had no idea how they would narrow it down to one family.

That's how in demand newborns are.

Baby shortage-Fost Adopt
With contraception rates, abortion rates, and infertility rates high in the US, VERY VERY VERY few newborns are available.

For a child to be available in the US a birth mother must choose to place the child for adoption with the birth father's consent rather than placing the child with her or his extended family. How many of you would allow your grandchild to be placed for adoption rather than with you?

Fost-Adopt

Children in the foster care system in the US are there because their birth parents are abusive or neglectful. Abuse and neglect have a devastating affect on children. That's why most foster children are shuffled from foster home to foster home-most foster parents cannot deal with SEVERE behavioral, mental, and emotional problems facing older unwanted children.

Be very careful before you decide to condemn others for not taking in children you are not willing to take in.

It takes YEARS for most birth parents of foster children to have their rights severed. Many times the children have been returned to a previously dangerous birth parent situation to be pulled out later and sent to yet another foster home. Then the birth parent jumps through another hoop and is given another chance to later abuse or neglect the child and on and on it goes.

Why international adoption is expensive
Ok, where to start?

Fees for our international adoption included:

a)birth mother's medical care
b)birth mother's housing
c)all legal fees for court documents (domestically and abroad),travel documents, government documents related to immigration
d)travel expenses for adoptive parents and adoptee, or for escorts (social workers) bringing the adoptee to the US
e)adoption agency fees for buildings, translators, social workers salaries and benefits and contracts domestically and abroad
f)funds for foster parents or orphanages to cover some of the child's expenses
g)all medical expenses for the child
h)finger printing/background check fees
i)Foster care certification related court fees
j)other fees I don't remember right now

And people wonder why it costs so much!? If someone paid all expenses for you and the child you carried, birthed and raised for up to 2 years how much would they have paid? Seriously, sit down and add it up assuming medical insurance covered $0.

Lolly
"I think it's disgusting to buy and sell children like vegetables."

I agree wholeheartedly.

However, we are NOT talking about buying and selling children like vegetables. We're talking about ADOPTION and the buying and selling of numerous difficult services involved.

Or do you expect everyone involved to work for free? Do YOU work for free?


"And I've thought for years that it's a shame to go running off to a foreign country when there are thousands of kids right in the US who need homes."

Write your congressman. Lobby to make it easier to adopt kids at home.

People are like water -- they flow downhill. If you put sandbags and dams around adopting US kids, in the form of onerous and ridiculous regulation and red tape, people will flow to places where the obstacles are not as difficult.

I agree with Sally
I happen to agree with Sally. I think it's disgusting to buy and sell children like vegetables.

And I've thought for years that it's a shame to go running off to a foreign country when there are thousands of kids right in the US who need homes.

Oh, my, here we go. More name-calling. All that "compassionate conservatism" on display again. No wonder we're going to laugh all the way to the White House in January. Y'all will probably be too busy posting nasty things about your fellow conservatives who disagree with you.

jdw
Ok you are showing your ignorance here. I have adopted here in the states, Guatemala , and am now trying to adopt here in the good old USA once again. Let me tell you, the US has a much more discrimanatory process than abroad. In fact it is so stringent, that we have been waiting over 5 years now for our "local social worker" to call us back to finish our homestudy. There seems to be always the same old story, of new caseworker etc. Meanwhile, kids stay in the system. After waiting for several years we decided to go to another country. That is why we chose Guatemala. We tried for years to have children, then decided there were many out there who needed homes, someone to love them. Apparently you were not loved very much to make those comments you have made. Maybe you were one of the ones stuck in the system.... Anyway, for the people who think they are selling children in these other countries, think again. Between the 3 adoptions, this last one will be the most expensive by far. From best estimates, over $45,000, compared to 19,000 the first US time, and around 30,000 in Guatemala. So who is making the money here?? Check into it people before you start making all these judgement calls. The people who adopt are not altruistic people trying to make themselves feel better, they are people who want the chance to be parents, to know the love a child can give. The ones of you with such negative comments, I pity the child you might have one day, to have to deal with the emotional, damaging scars you might leave on your children. And jdw, by the way, where did your heritage come from, a bottle? No I think most likely your parents were immigrants at some point. Take a good look at yourself , like others have said you are a troll, but that said just know, even the billy goats are still too good for you!

Check your facts
Sally and Howie, you have obviously not looked into adoption in this country or this issue in any depth. Yes, there are those who need adoption in the US but our laws stink. The courts too often side with genetics reguardless of the unfitness a biological parent has shown. As to the cost of these adoptions, have you really checked into the cost of having a child in this country? I did. It came out more expensive than the foreign adoption! Please check your facts before you judge, Mr Stossel has.

truth spoken
its the truth spoke in this article, i am a guatemalan college student in my last year to study, I have 1 adoptive brother, and i can tell when the goverment take the full control the thingsjust down, my parents was want to adopt a baby almost 15 years ago, we have the financial, moral and medical references to adopt, when we try to adopt by the way of goverment, the social worker tell to my parents: yes you are elegible now you have to wait 12 months to be matched with a kid you will don´t know anything about him until your paperwork is finished then you pick up and bring to your home, you don´t have pictures, no knowledge from health care, nothing, and your process will be ready almost and 2.5 years; 2.5 years one human baby don´t have love, don´t have the special care . Then my parents talk with an attorney and process is more human, now i have a brother have 19 years, we are good, but can you imagine this happened with a guatemalan couple, now the law suppously its create to give the oportunity to the guatemalan people adopt, and the babies live and their country on bith ¿" is this a joke"?. i have 100% knowledge from guatemala adoptions , i live , and almost 5 years i work with adoptions because i know is the best for babies, this is a big help from human lifes, Kelly from guatadopt say in a bank is money and corruption and this is not a excuse to shut down all the banks , well say, and same the congressman have a pay from 35,000 quetzales at month and "is an institution from honor", don´t do free ther job?. the fees for an intercountry adoption is nothing to all expenses to give for good care, all see the amount but had to paid foster mother, peditrician month to month, vaccinations, food, courts fees, paid from dna here the attorney pay from recolection twice, pay employees, i work in attorney office and i win 325 dollars at month. don´t believe DOS say and sometimes tHe media. blesses to all....

viruddh --- Hyperbole
"We are talking about selling babies here."

Since when?

I thought we were talking about ADOPTION!!

Shame on all the press....
Where the $#%@ was this point of view 2 or 3 years ago, when it might have made a difference. Where was it just 6 months ago, when all of the adoptive parents were screaming for help, and for someone to look at the REAL issues.

Now, there are thousands of children who will be on the streets, or worse - thrown out with the bath water when someone decided that the adoption process needed to be "cleaned up."

If they'd simply enforced the laws that were already on the books, there would be little or no corruption in adoptions in Guatemala.

Now, the only ones hurt by all this are the children. Those poor children.

Jennifer, mom to 3 children, 2 from Guatemala

Gee
I wonder what power the State Dept would have, under Ron Paul?

Adoption
Dear Sally,

At least my commodified daughter won't live motherless and alone for the rest of her life...that is if we ever get her home, thanks to the new laws and regs. in Guat.




Sounds like the State Department
... funnel money to cronies. "Thirty-six persons were working, (but) 105 were on the payroll,"

Sounds like the State Department, or the Interior Department, or any other department of our Federal Government!

Hitchhiker & the rest of you
We are not talking about lemonade stands and I
am not against making profit. My husband owns
his own business, for heaven's sake.

We are talking about selling babies here. And
if you don't find that outrageous, then I will
show enough outrage for the both of us.

I also have also seen fairly upclose the process
about foreign adoption, including with my own
daughter who got half way through the process and
then got pregnant. Going through a
legitimate charitable organization is expensive
and typical cost these days is around $30,000
whether it is from China, Korea, Russia, Ukraine.
But in those instances you are paying for the
upkeep of the babies who spend time in orphanages
before they are released, you are probably paying
for the medical expenses of the mother, the
staff at both ends, and airfare. You are not
handing that kind of money over to one parent
and her grasping lawyer.

jdw
No. No invading Guatemala. There are tarantulas there! Are you mad, man??

Yes, Lyris- absolutely correct
"As I understand it, a prime motivator inducing people who want to take on the herculean task of raising a child to adopt internationally rather than here at home is the absolute terror that their adopted American child can be taken from their home at any time at the whim of a social worker, government agency, or other entity. The real-life horror stories of children being torn from the only parents they have ever known to be "reunited" with their "biological parent" - is a nightmare I would avoid at any cost"

Our system, thanks to moral relativism, does not differentiate between people who encounter hardships and people who go about creating them.

Ms.Oz
writes, "Lilly...
is only agreeing with the article because she knows someone who is affected by the subject matter. If she didn't, she'd be writing the same ridiculous things that Sally wrote. But, that's pretty much how libs function. Unless they experience something, they are unlikely to give it any rational thought "

I wonder how many of these other well meaning people with big hearts fall into the same category? Do they understand the main point Stossel is making or do they simply agree with him this time?

Oh, and
more often than not, unfit parents want the kid(s) back out if a sense of PRIDE (you ain't the boss of me!), void of care for the child. Those who truly start a different life and are making changes let the child go to a stable home and quit inserting themselves into the picture. Our courts would do well to notice this.

Perhaps the prospective child
could sneak across the border concealing drugs,thus committing a felony and then demand it's "rights". I am fairly certain that it would then be welcomed with open arms. Imagine the cause celeb that the child would become!

Moral relativism infused into
bureaucracy are part of what makes adoption so difficult in the states. I've never worked in the adoption field, but have known many foster children who have wanted to be adopted by their foster parents. Because of the incredible concern for the rights of perpetrators, it is possible to jerk the system around FOR YEARS (the child's entire childhood) with stints in rehab, halfway houses, parent training courses, in and out of court, etc... There have been foster parents who have raised children from infancy only to lose them at 3 or 4 years old to some self-righteous piece of $h1t who thinks of no one but herself when the toddler/small child is taken back. More often than not, the child ends up traumatized and back in the system for "care" so that the bio "parent" can be afforded "rights". As a result, some are hesitant to adopt an American child because the child can be removed if some out of control junkee wants him/her "back".

Its astounding how the courts favor completely destructive and selfish people. I have one girl (15) who is FORCED to see her father via supervised visits (he tried to light her on fire when she was 7 during a "bi-polar" episode) on HIS birthday and father's day. Days to pay homage to HIM. How utterly ghastly. This is a COURT ORDER.

Bleeding Heart Liberal
writes, "If Stossel objects to any government intrusion, he should be required to clean up after an unsupervised adoption goes wrong"

Yes, it takes a village, Bleeding Heart Liberal, and the State Dept to raise a child. MUST....STOP....BAD.....PARENTING. The only way to do this, of course, is to create the new Bleeding Heart International Adoption Agency. I know the perfect guy to put in charge. Knows exactly who would be good parents and who would not. We'll just let him decide these things for everyone.

Yes, we always hear the same thing from these types. I know best. I should be in charge of determining everything. We need more government to correct these problems such as a bad parent. The problems created by government can be easily solved by, drumroll please, more government.

Thank you for your contributions to this thread Hillary. Shouldn't you be out campaigning or something? Perhaps you are one those bureaucrats saying, jump, roll over, play dead and, maybe I will put my stamp on this and send it to the next desk.

Guatemala adoption
My wife and I have recently adopted from Guatemala. The current process, which we went through, was expensive and bureacratic beyond belief. On our end, our adoption agency does not have huge profit margins. In fact, they rely on donations to help. Leave it to the government to punish such good deeds and to turn this good work of adopting into something painful, nerve-wracking and expensive and yet somehow make it unprofitable for anyone. This does make me look forward to nationalized healthcare.

Reason for International Adoptions
Our experience with adoptions mirrors Lyris. We have biological children and wanted to bless a child with no hope of a decent life. International was the only way to go; so we and the child wouldn't live in fear of having our family torn apart. We adopted ten years ago and are grieved at the children who will never be rescued because adoption has become so much more difficult.

STBMOM--I'd like to talk to you
STBMOM, do you think that you would be willing to talk to me about your experiences, both with attempts to adopt and infertility treatments? If so, my email is:

g n o e l l e @ c h a r t e r . n e t

I would love to talk to someone who's been through what I foresee going through.

Thank you.

Some people don't get it
To my fellow adoptive parents: Please keep in mind that most of the anti-adoption comments made here are because these people have no idea what adoption is about and have no knowledge of the process, either domestically or internationally, that is involved in creating a family. Thankfully, Jon Stossel gets it and I applaud him for taking a position that is counter to the main stream media in this country.

The only comments I find offensive are the ones that involve bigotry or the idea that our children are somehow "defective." That is either American superiority or just plain ignorance, probably both.

Congratulations to those who have their children home and prayers for those of you still waiting.

Reason for International Adoptions
As I understand it, a prime motivator inducing people who want to take on the herculean task of raising a child to adopt internationally rather than here at home is the absolute terror that their adopted American child can be taken from their home at any time at the whim of a social worker, government agency, or other entity. The real-life horror stories of children being torn from the only parents they have ever known to be "reunited" with their "biological parent" - is a nightmare I would avoid at any cost. Obviously many people feel the expense and headaches of international adoptions are a price they are willing to pay to guarantee that the child they bring into their homes to love and raise will never be taken from them. It's a nightmare for the adoptive parents and a tragedy beyond belief for the child. A child's deepest terror is to "lose" their mommy and/or daddy - at least it is for my (biological) daughter. To have this nightmare inflicted on a child in real life by an impersonal government is profoundly evil. Beyond that, the child being forcibly returned to the biological parent is losing out on an entire lifetime of love, achievement, success, education, good health, and so on - all the perks bestowed on children by parents who are successful and dedicated enough to consider adoption in the first place.

Thanks, Carpe Diem BDB
"When the government (even the US government) is a monopoly, you get a higher priced service with lower quality."

How starting a billboard fund and putting this all over the US?



Been there, didn't do that!
Before we had our 3 biological children my husband and I looked into US adoption. I was so turned off I didn't know what to do! First, they talked about the money - $10,000 minimum. They then wanted to look "deeply" into our marriage as we had "only been married 2 years". They felt that wasn't long enough - even though we were both older, very well education, great jobs, owned our own home - and by the way - also minorities. Still wasn't "good enough" as most Christian adoption agencies said they wouldn't even take our application until we had been married a minimum of 3 years. Then we started to really read the fine print. We could easily pay $20,000 in fees (including being responsible for the birth mother's rent, groceries, and other needs in additional to medical bills), but the birth mother could change her mind up to two weeks after the birth. We then learned that up to 50% of all US birth mother's change their mind. This made us feel there was a racket going on with fake adoptions being the new welfare. We were done with the process before we even started. Chose to go the fertility treatment route and were blessed with 3 kids are happy for it.
If we did look into adoption again we would consider only international adoption. But, it appears, the US government is going to ruin that as well.

A Subject I Know Well
First a couple of preliminary comments are in order. John Stossel is right as is SJ Doc and PhD JD.

Howie, jdw and Bleeding Heart are misinformed, ignorant or both.

My wife and I adopted a little girl from Russia (and we have TWO fish tanks!). I could tell stories for hours about the experience, but here a few that speak to the issues presented by John.

We went to Russia because we wanted finality after trying to adopt unsuccessfully in the US, not once but THREE times. The legal climate, lengthy process and domestic adoption bureacracy are among the reasons.

The INS , State Department and local social services (homestudies) treated us as if we were criminals starting with the fingerprinting and repeated invasions of privacy by social service types. Yes, I know about the horror stories.

Most Russians don't adopt because there is a stigma attached to it. There were lost of kids in the orphanage that ran up to see if you were their Mom and Dad coming to take them home. You could see the sadness when they realized they were being left behind.

While we finally adopted our little girl, it was an expensive, unnecessarily complicated process and slow.

When the government (even the US government) is a monopoly, you get a higher priced service with lower quality. Eliminating the brokers or profits only hurts the kids (here or abroad) who need families and breaks the hearts of parents who want to give these kids homes.

Here we go again
I have lived in Guatemala. You no-profit purist a-holes have absolutely NO idea how bad it is for at-risk, parentless (orphan) children down there: children working in dumps recycling any piece of plastic they can find, eating food where they find it, and huffing glue on the street to numb the agony of existence. Then they get periodic beat-downs from police/military when they're not doing what they want them to do. It doesn't surprise me at all that they're forced into prostitution...and I'm sure drug vending.

I really don't know how you look at yourselves in the mirror, you freaks. Your own hypocrisy will condemn you: you're so understanding and compassionate with these children coming to this country illegally (offering them health care and other public benefits) as adults to improve their lives, but you refuse to allow them these same benefits as children done in a legal manner before they're exposed to so much childhood outrage. What hatred, distorted-warped thinking, cruelty, and evil is in your hearts to think this hypocrisy is compassionate and enlightened?

And what is the solution from liberal, ethnic purists of the State Department, La Raza, and other "social advocacy" groups? Make adoption to the most wonderful world in the world more difficult. Great. Sometimes I wonder how we're the same species.


jdw - I'll Feed the Troll one last time
Troll = One who deliberately posts derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup, or discussion thread in order to bait other users into responding.

That sounds a LOT like what you are doing. You aren’t giving thoughtful, thought provoking input. You’re not debating and inviting debate. You aren’t stating facts, choosing instead to throw out opinions, generalizations and misinformation. It looks very much like you are deliberately posting “…derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup, or discussion thread in order to bait others into responding.”

Or to make the point more at a level you can understand – I looks very, very, very, very, very much like you are simply trolling.

It must be tough for you. Since I am an American, by your own words you must be “in favor” of me. Luckily for me, I’m in favor of intelligent and compassionate people, which means I can certainly value my many friends (in the United States and around the world) much more highly than I value you.

I will not respond to more of your ramblings, there’s no point in it.

To jdw
In response to your remark " . . . dilettante Americans are into exotic pets?"

Man, you are one sick puppy. How'd you get onto this blogsite? I hope you are not a Republican. It almost makes me want to be for MORE illegal immigration. It is your kind of idiocy that gives those of us who favor legal immigration, but condemn illegal immigration, a bad name. I think I understand Linda Chavez's point a little better now . . .

Differs by state, apparently.
My sister and her husband adopted two children from two different states in the US, one locally and one at a distance, it was not that complicated for them.

Here here!
Finally, someone in the US media is standing up and saying that Guatemalan adoption is a good thing (or at least not the horror it has been made out to be). Thank you!

I would like to point out a fact largely ignored by the media in the US and Guatemala, which is that US domestic adoptions are frequently handled by domestic adoption attorneys (in addition to being facilitated by agencies, including non-profit agencies). At one point we spoke with an adoption attorney here in our area who quoted her hourly rate for adoptions and adoption-related services (including the readoption of our Guatemalan son) as $350/hour. For anyone doing the math, assuming you have a 40-billable-hour week for 50 weeks of the year (2 weeks vacation) and can actually get all of your clients to pay that hourly rate, that's $700,000. Another adoption attorney we spoke with prior to adopting our son from Guatemala told us a domestic adoption would cost us approximately $20-30,000 in legal fees, plus agency fees, homestudy fees, etc. So profit is clearly a driving force here in the US for domestic adoptions (at the very least, as a friend of mine says, adoption attorneys are not living in cardboard boxes under a bridge for want of income). Why is it such a terrible thing if the attorneys who process Guatemalan adoptions make a decent living? It is patronizing and insulting for the US (or any other country) to say that it's okay to make a profit for providing a particular service here, but in another country it should all be non-profit or charitable services... talk about a double standard!

Bleeding Heart Liberal
"I don't remember ever seeing a couple of "color" complaining they could not adopt because of red tape."

As it seems I need to constantly remind people; your circle of friends does not a valid statistical sample make.

Some very good friends of mine, "people of color", have gone through the adoption process, at quite a high expense, and could give you a couple of lessons on the difficulties they faced.

Having a couple of kids myself (the "old fashioned" way), I told them they were NUTS, but does anybody ever listen to me? Of course not!

For lilly
Off topic, but here you go…
“How about "Barack Obama is coming to rape your daughter" or "Hillary Clinton eats Roast Infant for dinner"?”

How about “Every time somebody votes for Hillary, God kills a kitten.”
http://www.cafepress.com/buy/anti-democrat/-/pv_design_deta ils/pg_11/id_23662382/opt_/fpt_/c_666/

I'm getting these for my entire family!

Low expectations confirmed, for jdw
JDW can always be counted on to show us the racism and stupidity that can be found among conservatives. While I'm not saying that all conservatives are as bigoted as JDW, it is pretty clear that he is bigoted in ways that mark him as a conservative and not a liberal: hatred of foreigners, racism, imperialist delusions, and the like.

I'm always pleased to see JDW come out from whatever he normally lives under to share his crudity with one and all. He's a refreshing reminder of what lies on the Right.

Save the babies!
Collect the whole set.

Well Said!
Well Said John! It's too bad no one was getting this word out before the recent legislation. If only we had been able to stop our government from putting their big paws in and creating even more problems! The really sad thing is that now that the State Department has mucked up Guatemalan adoptions, they are moving on to the next most popular country and will likely continue to do so until they completely halt international adoptions around the world!

Minority adoptions
Several couples in my church are adoptive parents and here is why. In most cases, but particularly in the case of Native children, adoption agencies are under federal mandate to place children in homes where their culture is present. So, for example, my friend Pat is an Alaska Native married to a Caucasian woman. His biological children are blondes (Pat is half-white himself). He and Lisa were allowed to adopt three distant cousins who are Native because Pat is Native. Forget that Pat grew up in town and his "native" heritage consists of willingly eating seal meat when his mother prepares it and going to the Festival of Native Arts once a year. Forget that his wife is from Virginia and has no Native blood. He has the right genetics and that's all that's important. This is common with social workers nationwide. They want black kids to go to black families, etc.

This is also common in overseas adoptions. If I, a white woman with a white husband, wanted to adopt a Korean child, the US State Dept would tie us up in red tape more than if I wanted to adopt an Irish child. I suspect it may be what is occuring with Guatamala. The mothers putting their children up for adoption just want them to live, but our US sensibilities come into play. Well, the child is Guatamalan! You can't have someone of another culture raising them! Shudders!

So children starve and are emotionally and physically damaged waiting for the adoption to come through. The social workers mean well, but culture seems to trump physical health and safety. This is similar to the enviro-freaks who will let the people of Romania starve in the dark drinking polluted water rather than allow a US mining interest to come in and provide jobs and clean up the pollution from the previous Communist mining site. Priorities are all messed up!

It's okay to murder babies, but we really must save the whale.

Wrong Word pt 2

If things suck in Guatemala, that's THEIR fault. And it's certainly not my responsibility. Conquer Guatemala, impose our form of society and laws upon their populace, and *then* we can fix their problems. We have to impose such things, because as was demonstrated in Iraq and elsewhere, non-American (and to a lesser extent, non-Western-Europeans) are not embracing such things on their own.
So, no. Adopt an American baby, hire a surrogate mother, or do without. You do NOT have a right to raise a child.

Mission trip to Mexico
Visit women's prison, talk to women hopelessly on drugs using prostitution to pay for them.

Visit town junkyard and watch people make living there looking for food and something to sell.

Visit orphanage, build dorms, paint rooms, help abandoned kids with their English, teach a few building skills toolder children.

Go home, feel good, leave kids there, maybe send a few bucks, say a prayer...

DW: Gene pool comment - Priceless!
.

What the new pres would do about this
Hillary: Push for more "choice" in Guatemala.

Obama: Nothing.

McCain: Nothing.

Romney: Purge the State Department.

About the fees
One thing most fail to realize is that the money paid to the attorneys in Guatemala does not just go to them as personal fees. They are also used to pay those who care for the children, provide them with food, clothing, medical care including immunizations and sick care. These things are provided from the time of birth in most cases until the child comes home which is an average of 8 months. The attorneys also must pay staff to assist in running the paper work. It's not like it is here in the states where everything is done over the phone and through email. Most work is filled out by hand and hand delivered to the appropriate entity.

The gov't of Guatemala certainly does not have the funds to care for these children in this manner and I might add, that most of the fostering of these children is very loving. The foster care system is a much better one for development of these children than an institution. Foster parents may only foster 2 children at a time, so they have the potential of receiving much more stimulus than in an orphanage situation.

I'd like for someone to do the calculations on that time period for a child here in the U.S. Yes, the attorneys are making money by providing a service; let's rightly compare their take home to that of attorneys take home here in the states for adoptions. Let's look at the bigger picture here and stop streamlining.

The article today was great and was one of the most accurate I've read from our media. Thanks, John

BRAVO DW... UGH JDW
To see Children living in Guatemala City Dump:

http://www.makingroom.com/feature_mkeasler.php



I second everything DW said...

Keep tragedy in perspective
Yes, 5 children kidnapped out of 4,000 is a terrible tragedy. But, I am more horrified that (because of the new laws) 4,000 children (per year) will starve to death in the streets, be sold into prostitution and suffer so that the 5 could be protected. The point of all this is really easy and clear... put in protections to help the 5 and still allow the other 4,000 to have loving homes if they are available to them! It's not an "either/or" question but that's what UNICEF and the US DOS has turned it into.

Oh, and to all of those who have never even TRIED to adopt... (domestically OR internationally)... YOU HAVE NO CLUE!!! You cannot even begin to say what someone else SHOULD do to build their families or reach out to a child in need. Once you've been through it, then I'll think your opinion MIGHT be worth about a penny.

JDW - Troll?
JDW, I'm assuming you're a troll, just saying whatever you think will get people riled up and responding to you. Yes?

Classic troll clues - Inflamitory words like brat and selfish, judgmental thinking (this is right, that is wrong), massive generalizations (all people wanting to adopt are this way). Add to this the failed attempts to sound educated (you support a total AND complete AND entire ban? How about just a complete ban?, and since dilettantes is completely out of place in that sentence, what were you trying to say there?)

I can have kids – I have three of them. I am choosing to adopt because it’s what I feel I can do to make the world a better place. I’m choosing to adopt from Guatemala for a number of personal reasons.

So in the off chance that you’re not a troll, I ask what you are doing to make the world a better place? And since you most likely are a troll, let me point out that one of the advantages of adopting from Guatemala is it keeps me clear of your side of the gene pool :)

Guatemala
Mr. Stossel if I could kiss you right now I would. It's about time someone told the story of what's going on with our government and Guatemala besides the "all babies all stolen from their birthmothers" story that seems to run on every channel and in every newspaper. We recently adopted our daughter from Guatemala and had a wonderful experience, no problems, lots of confirmation that our daught was in no way "stolen".

Bleeding Heart
You are wrong. Adoptive white parents do not all want "perfect white babies". My good friend is trying to adopt ANY baby here in the US. Once the social worker for the adoption found out that my friend's sister-in-law is Hispanic, she said "Oh, make sure we get that on file. You might be able to get a mixed race baby now." So, I guess, without her sister-in-law, my friend is somehow unqualified to get anything other than a white baby.


Thank You
People are often misdirected and simply don't understand the international adoption process. We need to keep educating the public about adoption. They more they know, the more they will understand. I'm often in heavy discussions with people about adoption where they misunderstand the process and the circumstances.

Another story
Friends of mine adopted a boy of 12 from an orphanage in Mexico. It took over a year. At one point, they both had to fly to Mexico from PA just to sign in person one paper that could have been delivered to a local embassy by courrier and witnessed here by a Mexican official. Needless expense?

Thank you for an honest article
This is the first article I have read that puts the spotlight where it truly belongs, on our own government. They made us jump through hoops, made mistakes, made profits, ran us out of expiration dates, raised fees, etc. They allow other countries to request bribes during adoption but will not let Guatemala (who did not ask for bribes) to succeed in placing children in good homes. They do not monitor adoptions going out from our country. What hypocrites. They let UNICEF lead us by the nose to prevent adoptions. It is a miracle I can now see my new grandkids.

The embassy is a tyrant to a poor country. They threatened the Guatemalan congress with removing their USA visas if they did not pass the UNICEF desired 'no adoptions' Ortega bill. The ex- president Berger ran off with the multimillion dollar UNICEF bribe to stop adoptions. How cozy. Now more children can die in the dump grounds thanks to ugly americans in the State department. I am very ashamed. Who is for the kids?

Questions for Lemonade
The numbers here are made easy:

You own a machine in a factory that makes parts, which you then sell. The machine costs $100K, requires $100K lifetime to run and repair, and can make 100K parts before it is junk. Is the $2 per part deductable from your profit?

You have a working life of 50 years times 260 days per year, or 13,000 days. Do you get to deduct the cost of your maintenance (food) and depreciation (limited lifetime) from your salary, or is your salary all "profit"?

jdw
As a battered veteran of the American adoption system who finally gave up in despair, the answer to your question is NO, there are NOT American Orphans waiting for families. The vast, vast, vast majority of children in foster care are still enmeshed in family ties, generally with a mother in detox or in prison, or having been removed from filth and starvation but not free because (1) the social workers are still trying to rehab Mommy and (2) nobody knows where Daddy is, and the child cannot be freed until every effort has been exhausted to "reunite the family." Social workers are paid by the open case file they hold, not by the placement of children. There is no incentive to close these files.

I will not go into the whole five years of battle with the American adoption system; only two examples will suffice. When my boys were young a friend at work came to me and asked if I was interested in adopting two sisters whose mother had run off with another man and whose depressed and alcoholic father wanted to place them together. I talked it over with the kids and they were overjoyed, even though they understood it would mean we would all be tightening our belts. After five months of exhaustive paperwork and investigations, I was turned down. The executive head of the agency said that (1) She did not approve of single women rearing children, and (2) SINCE I MOVED AROUND A LOT, I PROBABLY HAD OUTSTANDING FEDERAL WARRANTS AGAINST ME. She came perilously close to losing her license as a result of this libel. The boys were broken hearted. The girls remained in foster care until age 18 when they were kicked to the kerb by the System.

The other was the State of Georgia who told me again after exhaustive investigation that the only children placed with single women were Black teenaged boys or children with severe multiple handicaps 'that no Family would want.'

I gave up and gave birth to my own.

That IS the cheap shot.
Lemonade writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 9:25 AM

"Why is it JOhn
that you can find nothing wrong with anything
as long as it makes a profit?

I'm going to forgo the cheap shots."

Problems with US Adoption
I am a single mom who brought home my daughter from an international adoption a month ago and feel like the luckiest, most blessed woman in the world. As a teacher, I have looked into fostering and adopting here in the US, even students who have crossed my path. The red tape of terminating the rights of the families that lose their children due to drug/physical/sexual/emotional abuse, keep them in the foster system so long, and in often horrible foster homes, leaves this children out of finding permanent placements in families that want nothing more than to love and care for them. I would have LOVED to adopt here in the US. I would have gladly taken a child of any race, age, or history. However, due to our US "freedoms", birth families get to look through books of potential families and pick out the one they like "best" for their child. How many families making the decision to place their child for adoption would pick the single teacher (a.k.a limited income) to raise their child?

I pray the system in Guatemala will find a way to incorporate some of the model systems they did have in place (private foster care, regular medical reports and communication, opportunity to visit your child) with safeguards that prevent corruption, PROSECUTE those guilty of crimes against children, and that matches those with a whole in their family with a child who needs one.

simple economics
why is it that a lot of people have been condition to think that profit=evil?

does anyone here work for free?
what!! you make a profit on your services/products?

how dare you!

no one works for free. if you change jobs for better benefits, conditions or pay; then there is a profit that you expect to garner based on the move.

Not only with Guatemala
When my deceased first wife and I set out to adopt a Korean girl, we learned something about the supposedly noble public servants in government agencies. A lot of them RELISH the feeling of power they get when citizens have to come to them hat in hand, begging for the service which government has made their exclusive turf. They're like a dog owner taunting the dog with a treat held out of reach: "Want this baby? Come on, jump higher!"

LISTEN UP STATE DEPARTMENT MR. LAMORA
THANK YOU!!!! Finally, a voice of reason for all the kids waiting for families in Guatemala!!!!! We adopted our daughter from Guatemala last May. Her adoption took 9 months and the money we paid in fees went to DNA tests, her foster care, her monthly medical appointments, and Guatemalan court fees as well as the US Embassy processing fees. Has anyone compared that to the average private, lawyer facilitated adoption in the USA?
I can't tell you how much your words mean to us as most international adoption articles only want to point out the evils and corruption of International adoption and forget there are literally 30,000 kids who pass away in Guatemala
(which is about the size of Tennessee) every year not to mention the tens of thousands who make the Guatemala city dump their home. The need is so great, most Americans can't even imagine it. Thanks from the bottom of our hearts.

Lemonade
writes, "that you can find nothing wrong with anything as long as it makes a profit?"

It is really quite simple. Since you obviously never ran a lemonade stand as a kid, this will seem very foreign. People do not work for free. Do you have a job? Do you make a profit when you work or do you freely give your labor and expect nothing in return? Profit is simply the name given to the money that the owner earns for his labor. Try an experiment. Start a large lemonade stand and employ a bunch of neighborhood kids to run it. After buying supplies, pay the kids whatever is left over as wages and keep nothing for yourself, zero profit. Interested?

Why is it LEmonade
that you can find something wrong with everything when it makes a profit?

I'm going to forgo the cheap shots.

Sally, Have you ever been hungry?
This is the question that so many who preach 'more regulation' need to ask themselves.

Personally, I wouldn't mind being temporarily treated like cattle if it meant a lifetime of warmth, love, and plenty.

You would sooner have these children living less than my dog for a lifetime than 'harm their dignity.'

Lilly...
is only agreeing with the article because she knows someone who is affected by the subject matter. If she didn't, she'd be writing the same ridiculous things that Sally wrote. But, that's pretty much how libs function. Unless they experience something, they are unlikely to give it any rational thought...they simply apply the automatic liberal talking points to it. And...since they tend to shelter themselves from ever having to experience anything, well...you get the point. Once Lilly experiences universal healthcare for herself, I'm sure we'll here the following when she defends it:



(crickets)

Is this an immigration problem, or an
adoption problem?

I've heard far too many horror stories of abused children in the US who could not be adopted because of red tape, and ridiculous attempts to reunite them with their abuser parents, but this adoption issue with Guatamala is different, because it also involves immigration.

I don't have a problem with people adopting foreign babies, but there are limits on foreign immigration that should not be ignored because of the age of the immigrant.

Many of the countries of origin are using the US to dump their mentally and physically defective children on unsuspecting US parents, and those costs will be a burden on all of us in the end.

Even if the parents have Health insurance, and can care for their impaired children in the beginning, those children will reach the age of majority at some point, and those health care issues will fall on the many, via welfare, or indigent health benefits, that we will all be expected to pay for. (Especially with the current crop of POTUS candidates all trying to be the first to "give" us all universal health care.)

I don't have any problem with there being a profit motive involved with any adoption process, but I do have a problem with unrestricted immigration into this country, regardless of the age of the immigrant, and taking their physical and mental health into consideration before allowing the adoption to go through should be a cause for concern to the Government, as the Government will have to deal with it, eventually.

Again with the "lilly" comments ...
Scott66 point was that with a nationalized health care system, many of your choices will be GONE! There are many stories coming out of Canada where people cannot get the surgeries needed to stay alive and they come to the US for treatment. A good friend of mine just moved to Canada to work at a start-up university. He has severe asthma and was told it would not be covered because it was a pre-existing condition. His only recourse is to travel back to the US to get the needed care and medication. Or, maybe he should just forgo any treatment and possibly die. Would you prefer that, lilly, oh compassionate one?

Accountability
I agree with John that the way governments have typically handled this has harmed the children. Look at other countries who are attempting to implement the Hague and have resorted to insanely bogus processes that are aimed at reducing adoptions NOT solving the orphan problem. The US pressured Guatemala to implement immediately while the US took years to come up with Hague processes (YET to be implemented).

Yes, money leads to corruption but it does in banking, mortgages, law, politics and about any service you can think of. I seriously doubt that anyone would agree to shut down banks because corruption was found YET this is the way things work when it comes to children and international adoption. Furthermore, its not UNICEF's problem (and that is a direct quote) to provide social services to these children. The real shame is that UNICEF and our own government worked so hard to SHAME Guatemala into the concept of stopping the number of children leaving the country instead of finding REAL solutions for them!

What has never been adequately addressed is the lack of ACCOUNTABILITY and JUSTICE (certainly, not by our government, Guatemala nor UNICEF). If there is no justice and no accountability, then there is NO LAW that can possibly make things better for these children. The bad guys are getting away with it while there is the witchhunt style of processing an adoption, today. PGN (the Guatemala AG's office) boasts of holding cases for many months but RARELY is there any criminal prosecution against corrupt illegal/unethical behavior. Everyone is suffering!

That being said, we can only hope that the new administration will work to keep adoptions open and viable for the children who need homes.

Staying hopeful,

Kelly, Guatadopt.com
(adoptive mom who makes $0 from this industry)

correction
sally writes: There are churches and non-profits that will happily do this work under supervision. Five stolen babies (mentioned above) is absolutely heart-breaking. The commodification of any human being is unacceptable.

=================================================

Nonprofit refers to tax status. If you think "nonprofit" means they don't make money you're dreaming. If an entity spends more than it takes in it ceases to exist.

As for 5 babies being stolen - how many do you think have died as a result of this policy?

To Scott66
You have basically stated that nationalized health care in the United States would include mandatory abortion. How about "Barack Obama is coming to rape your daughter" or "Hillary Clinton eats Roast Infant for dinner"? Keep trying. I don't doubt you will find others as stupid and hysterical as you are; they will believe anything you tell them.

Long term effects
Something that seems to get left out in the discussions of adoption and adoption reform is the long term effect of delaying a child's entry into a loving family. All is not necessarily well once the child finds a home. The longer a child is in an orphanage or foster home before being placed the more difficult that child's future.
My two boys were caught up in prolonged political manuevering (both on the US and Guat sides). The result? Violent rages unlike any I have seen from an infant. Waking up in the middle of the night to terrified creams. Heartbreaking cries of sadness the reduce me to tears. These are things that my family will have to deal with for years to come.
Is adoption reform needed? Yes, but the very real, long-term costs to the children need to be seriously considered. Their journey does not end when they find their new family.

Nice comment SJ DOC
And if we get nationalized health care with the rationing that will HAVE to entail then it would be quite likely the government would have told your daughter that she had to have an abortion.


No orphaned American children left?
Not to sound cold-hearted, but are there no orphaned American children (of any/all races, if that need be a consideration to some) left who are just as deserving of a home, to be adopted?

Sally Doesn't Get It
Sally, your comments are simply wrong on this issue.

You said that the problem with profit is that it leads to providing an "extraordinary incentive to produce babies for sale." Would you be more comfortable with an ordinary incentive to produce babies for sale? The fact is the many, many babies in Guatemala are not be produced for sale, and the mothers are not making an extraordinary profit.

You then comment that the profit is "many many times bigger than it would be for a lawyer to perform comparable work in Guatemala." It IS lawyers providing the work in Guatemala. It is the LAWYERS who are making the bulk of the profit (which is what is left after paying the many, many US and Guatemalan fees).

And while I'm sure it makes you feel good to believe there are churches and non-profits who will "happily" do this work under supervision, there simply is not. The ending of adoptions from Guatemala undoubtedly will result in thousands of deaths of children in a country that has no system in place for their care.

Three strikes. Your out.

True
Unfortunately, this article speaks the truth. I have young friends who six years ago adopted a Guatemalan baby and for the past two years have been trying to adopt another one but between 2002 and now the situation has become much harder and crazier. If a baby is going to adoptive parents, the earlier in the baby's life the change is made, the easier the transition for the baby. My friends' older child came to them when he was seven months old, already (in the minds of child-development specialists) not the optimum age for this. But the second child is now 14 months old and although she has been the adoptive parents' legal daughter now for five months they still are prevented from bringing her home. The bureaucracy from BOTH Guatemala and the United States has been unbelievable. Many layers of fingerprints, interviews, relinquishment hearings, signed permissions, affadavits, DNA tests etc must be done, repeated, replicated, and then done again because the dates on the originals have expired, then dates for the re-dos are set far in the future. My friends have actually made four trips to Guatemala already just to get to know their daughter before her babyhood is past.

Meanwhile, the clock is ticking. The little girl is now walking, is on the edge of acquiring language, and has formed a relationship with her foster mother. To postpone her life-change makes that change much harder. You will find many more details on message boards run by international adoptive parents. The situation is a nightmare.

John is right, we know firsthand
My wife and I are in the process of adopting from a foreign country. The country is supposedly authoritarian, but I can guarantee you that it is OUR nation -- the USA -- that is more Nazi like in its rules and regulatiosn. Some poitns:

-In dealing with OUR CIS (formerly the INS), not ONE person in its Jacksonville office spoke decent English. The US REQUIRED us to go get fingerprinted and do other things through its CIS, but the people who were supposed to help us could NOT communicate. What the Hell is our country doing hiring people who speak mostly spanish and not English to work at an INS center?

--Consider that it is easier to come into this country illegally from Mexico and have a baby and call that baby a US Citizen, than for a REAL US citizen to adopt an orphan form overseas.

Mr Bush can kiss off. He has a 3 trillion dollar budget now, up at least a trillion from when he took office. HIS Govt. has added so much bureacracy that a US Citizen must go through HELL to adopt a child from overseas, yet Bush wants ILLEGALS who just break our laws to have a baby over in the US, and get amnesty as well as citizenship for that baby.

They won't stop the illegal immigration, nor protect our borders. So whenever I see McCain, I think of him calling those who opposed illegal immigration "Racists," with the knowledge that my wife and I want to adopt a transracial baby.

And my family goes way back -- legal immigrants in most cases themselves -- fighting and dying in our wars, paying our taxes -- and yet BUSH's govt. makes it so expensive and hard to adopt for US citizens compared to illegals. What a slug.

And as for local abandoned kids
forget that too. Social workers are compensated by the number of *files* they control, not on the number of children they place for adoption. It is in their financial interest to keep those children OUT of loving homes.

And then there is all that crapola about *reuniting families* -- leaving abused, battered and abandoned children dangling in foster home after foster home while they try to refurbish the violent, drug-addled prostitute who gave them birth, and slam the child back into the rat-infested room where Mommy does her daily, at the mercy of the latest man through the doors. And then they stand over the dead and battered body and courageously say *We dropped the ball on that one and we apologize* while they fawn over the Victim of Exclusion who allowed her current John to batter the baby to death.

Here last week we have seen a beautiful angel of 8 months who shows obvious signs of abuse by a man, abandoned face down in a parking garage stairwell in -14 degree weather. Social worker lines are burning up with offers to adopt her. Social workers are desperately seeking the *family* who dumped her to die, hoping to *reunite* them. Millions of us are praying they never succeed.

Sally - Children *ARE* a commodity
--
They always have been. Even if the "benefit" you seek as a parent is nothing more than a cute little kid to hug and cuddle, the decision to have children is the decision to commit yourself to incredible costs (monetary and non-monetary), and if you're an American, there are powerful government forces operating to hold you - at what is, to all practical purpose, gunpoint - to your responsibility.

Ask any man condemned as a "deadbeat dad" and ordered to pay exhorbitant child support for decades because he'd fathered offspring when - as an adolescent below the age of consent! - he'd engaged in sexual activity with an age-peer.

My daughter went more than half a year depending on IV fluids and costly antinausea medications (for which her health insurer refused to pay) becaue of life-threatening hyperemesis gravidarum during her most recent pregnancy. She and her husband elected to pay a hellacious price for the now-three-year-old granddaughter who presently thunders through my house, booby-traps my living room with Weebles, and crayons what she claims are "pixtures" of me on the unprinted back of any document I'm careless enough to leave on the kitchen table.

A real "high-maintenance chick" she is, by God.

True, she's not an alienable commodity. Once she became ours, she's ours for life. But how are the adoption brokers who work for profit any worse than the home infusion service that managed my daughter's IV fluids during her pregnancy - also for profit?

The brokers provide a service that the adopting parents (who pay the fees) are as willing to pay as my daughter and son-in-law were willing to pay in order to preserve her from a deadly peril of pregnancy she could have escaped simply by consenting to an abortion?

The "churches and non-profits" are not only limited in resources but less responsive to the desires of adoptive parents than are the "greedy" brokers.

--

Sure Stossel, but that's just life and
death...this is politics.

Government is always good, and knows best. Markets are evil. Profits are evil.

Thanks for making the case for freedom so effectively, John.

the problem with profit
The problem is that this leads to treating a child like a commodity, and to providing an extraordinary incentive to produce babies for sale.

This is unfortunately not a matter of someone being duly compensated for meeting regulations (the profit is many many times bigger than it would be for a lawyer to perform comparable work in Guatemala).

There are churches and non-profits that will happily do this work under supervision. Five stolen babies (mentioned above) is absolutely heart-breaking. The commodification of any human being is unacceptable.


Dammit John
There you go quoting facts and messing up a perfectly politically correct State Dept. response.

Keep up the great work!

You do not even mention the fact that if the cumbersome regulations were removed that require the expenditure of gasp, privately funded labor or, nonexistent government provided labor to meet, then the requirement for said labor would not exist and the profit so callously taken would disappear also. The guvmint imposes a cost from regulation then, prohibits the private funding of the cost in favor of more government supplied funding which, invariably, means much less effectiveness at much greater cost. Perfect. Let's have more please. It's only lives at stake. The important thing is it 'feels' better with social service at no profit which we all know is the exact same as no cost, cause of santa claus you know.
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