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Wednesday, January 30, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Who's Afraid of Prosperity?
by John Stossel
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Should we worry that the people of China, India and other undeveloped countries are getting richer? Apparently so, according to the newspapers and the "experts" they quote. They don't come right out and say that global prosperity is bad for us. Instead they say, as The New York Times recently said, "As development rolls across once-destitute countries at a breakneck pace, lifting billions out of poverty, demand for food, metals and fuel is red-hot, and suppliers are struggling to meet it. Prices are spiraling, and Americans find themselves in what amounts to a bidding war with overseas buyers for products as diverse as milk and gasoline [http://tinyurl.com/2m6m8n]."

It is certainly true that China's economy is expanding dramatically -- 10 percent last year. The Chinese build factories like crazy to pump out the inexpensive exports we Americans love to buy. To do that, Chinese producers have to purchase oil, steel and lots of other commodities. The new demand drives prices up.

And as the Chinese and other people get richer, they improve their diets and eat more meat, putting pressure on world food prices.

So media handwringers suggest we should worry about the poor becoming rich.

Actually, we shouldn't. It would be a sad world if one person's economic success depended on another's failure?

More of us would understand this if we learned what the great economics writer Henry Hazlitt preached in his classic book, "Economics in One Lesson": "The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but at the longer effects of any act or policy."

In the short run, richer Chinese and Indians bid up the prices of things. But that's just the beginning of the story. Increased demand and higher prices create opportunities for entrepreneurs.

When the price of, say, oil goes up, entrepreneurs and inventors have a strong incentive to: 1) find more, 2) find alternatives, and 3) find ways to use oil more efficiently. You and I cannot foresee what they will invent, but that means nothing. Predictions about the end of progress have been issued countless times. There is no reason to think they will be right this time.

Assuming government stays out of the way. Our current "leaders" are full of promises about "protecting" workers and industries, creating new "green" industries, and starting worker-retraining programs. For example, Hillary Clinton promises government support for "research (to) stimulate the development of new technologies and life-saving medicines [http://tinyurl.com/37zo3s]." Mitt Romney wants "to initiate a bold, far-reaching research initiative -- an Energy Revolution, if you will. It will be our generation's equivalent of the Manhattan Project or the mission to the moon [http://tinyurl.com/3a92ut]."

The media lap it up, apparently believing that no one will produce unless our wise leaders create an inducement. Nonsense.

The market would deliver the goods if government doesn't impose crippling regulations and tax away everyone's capital to fund its coercive utopian schemes. I like what Henry David Thoreau once said: "This government never furthered any enterprise but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way."

George Mason University economist Alexander Tabarrok has another way to demonstrate the benefits of spreading prosperity. Tabarrok wrote in Forbes [http://tinyurl.com/32hqw3] recently that the bigger the market, the more worthwhile it is for companies to make products that require costly research and development, such as medicines and chemicals. As the Chinese and Indians become more able to buy things, businesses everywhere will find it profitable to make products that yesterday weren't profitable enough. The result will be cures for diseases and other products that make our lives better.

Tabarrok takes this a step further: "Amazingly, there are only about 6 million scientists and engineers in the entire world, nearly a quarter of whom are in the U.S. Poverty means that millions of potentially world-class scientists today spend their lives trying to eke out a subsistence living, rather than leading mankind's charge into the future. But if the world as a whole were as wealthy as the U.S. and were devoting the same share of population to research and development, there would be more than five times as many scientists and engineers worldwide."

When it comes to being wealthy, the more the merrier.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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©Creators Syndicate
Assuming government gets out of the way
That's the problem the government will not get out of the way. I'm afraid we've gone down the 'Nanny State' road too far, for us to go back now. I fear that our government would rather we go to war over dwindling resources than let the market fix anything.

But But But
If there aren't any poor people how will democrats play the class card? That would be horrible to try and play off the haves against the have mores.

But But But Yes
Don't worry the socialists in the UK and Europe have an answer. Provide ludicrous welfare benefits not to work and expand government employment and you can build an electoral base of welfare benefit clients and a payroll vote to keep socialism alive. Its what Tony Blair and Gordon Brown have done here in the UK. It also helps if you import millions of illegal immigrants to keep unskilled wages below welfare roll levels and provide the liberal middle classes with cheap domestic help and bulders.

Then again, think the socialist George W Bush has already cracked the illegal immigrant part of the equation.

and
if other countries are just as rich as US, then maybe we won't be the target of jihad a much

Poverty and Prosperity
Those that believe that one man's prosperity implies another man's poverty are simply telegraphing their (possibly unconscious) foundational beliefs. Such people are almost always entranced with a version of old-fashoned Socialism in one of its many modern guises.

They prefer the equal distribution of poverty to the unequal distribution of prosperity.....at least for everyone else.

As is all too typical
Politicians promise to spend money on "research" that does NOTHING to alter the market realities that determine whether the result of that research will be economically viable. Not one single dollar of subsidy invested in research has ever developed anything that would not otherwise have been developed by the private sector without diverting funds away from more urgent or commercial viable ventures.

They may as well just set the money afire.

maldain
That is what they already do. Compare the US poor to the poor around the world. In many countries our poor would be well off. The US has so much affluence that it has distorted our ideas of wealth.

Fletch I don't think you're entirely...
correct. Take for example pharmaceuticals. Sure, the companies that develop them must take on a burden of risk in research and development, but they typically have a monster-sized 'prep lab' in the form of the National Institutes of Health funded labs. That research serves as a source for basic science findings and in a significant number of cases serves as a feeder system to industry - both in trained graduate post-doctoral and Principle investigator level and in other cases in providing preliminary results and even research materials (such as antibodies, drug precursors, DNA constructs, cell lines, model organisms, etc.).

The Government has the ability to fund projects that can provide basic science research that can be a foundation for private industry.

Still, industry far and away the most powerful source of innovation if government would just let them do their job. I don't like the 'Manhatten Project' for energy garbage. The sad thing is we already have all the alternative and in house energy sources we need if only the government would allow their use/development.

Equality?
"They prefer the equal distribution of poverty to the unequal distribution of prosperity.....at least for everyone else."

Good one, I like that. Kind of what I like to say about socialists: they want everyone to be equal ... equally miserable.

GreenDay
You proceed from two false assumptions.

The first is that the bulk of pharmaceuticals come from the public sector or in cooperation with the public sector. Exactly the opposite is true. The second is the presumption that, in the absence of the massive federal expenditure into helathcare and accademia, the private sector could not accomplish the same goal at an even lower cost.

A classic example is the Human Genome Project, which was beaten to the finish line by a private company that didn't start until the gov't program was years underway, spent like one-tenth the governmental outlay (and the HGP used some of the privatye company's methodology in order to finish) and found that mapping the genome wasn't enough in itself because the belief that a specific gene yields a specific trait was wrong and now enzyme interaction is where the study is concentrated.

There is no shortage of funds available for research in commercially viable science that needs to be made up for by the government.

knowledge for the sake of knowledge
Within the hard sciences, I would postulate that research money is never wasted so long as all of the inputs and results are publicly known. The current technical advances that are offshoots from the space race and the value of communications (thanks, Arthur C. Clark), weather forecasting and materials science (teflon, anyone?) have produced results that would not have been believed prior to the projects that made them possible. The development of near space will be driven by the private sector, but the original development was too pricy and the payback was too distant for anyone in the private sector to undertake.

Although research has the ability to be turned to nefarious ends (ie AGW is happening so all "rich" nations must pay penance to the UN and don't you dare ask to look at our supporting data), open discussion of the underlying science and it's potential use across different fields (like the atomizer perfume dispenser proving invaluable to the development of the internal combustion engine) is one of the drivers of economic innovation.

C Minor
Two points. Your take is reasonable. First, as you posit, the results of scientific research are not worthless. The question is whether or not those results could be determined more cheaply by the private sector.


There is, however, a form of research that IS completely worthless and that is attempts to make some alternative more commercially viable. While ythe scientific breakthroughs are technical in nature, it is impossible for government to determine in advance which reseach avenues will prove commercially viable - that is a function of the of the marketplace. Thus publicly funded attempts to make alternative fuels competitive with fossil fuels must inevitably fail to alter the market dynamic and the money is wasted.

China's Painful Prosperity
I explain it to people this way.

People in China used to commute via rick-shaws and bicycles. Now they use Toyotas.

The problem here is the same as any other market advance. The economy as a whole, most of the people, benefit from the free market in the long run. We're all going to do better in the long run with more freedom and prosperity the world over.

But there is always going to be short-term localized pain.

When they invented computers and word-processors, the companies that made typewriters went bust. When they invented automobiles, the people who made horse-shoes went bust. Steamships put the sailmakers bust. Etc.

Nobody wants to go back to riding horses everywhere. But that advancement is nevertheless painful for blacksmiths. Every advancement is painful for somebody. Just like today's increasing prosperity in the rest of the world, and hence the increasing prices for the rest of us, is painful.

But it's short-term. In the long run, we're all going to be better off.

It's just going to be a bit difficult to see that as you take out a second mortgage to fill up your tank!

F1etch
The results could only be determined by the private sector if the immediate financial benefits could be seen. I mentioned space exploration as a field where this is not the case, because the cost benefit analysis on an unproven satellite communications system that would take 25 years to develop would never pass a (competent) board of directors. A similar case could be made for exploration of the New World (a la Columbus) wherein the first sailings were too risky for private industry, but the overwhelming majority of trips today are done privately.

I agree that fuels research isn't something the government should do: there are enough people seeking private fortunes in that field that further (public) expense isn't warranted. If they really want to assist research dollars, allow companies to write off more of the development costs.

"prosperity"
China and India are prospering because we are transferring our wealth to those countries.

If you consider keeping your currency undervalued and adding VAT to our products "free trade" then I guess it is OK.

Canada not happy about enduring what we have for years is now talking about keeping their currency artifically pegged below ours.

No need to worry, ALL the candidates are globalists. North American Union is around the corner. Most likely with next president (either party).

“It is folly to underestimate the contempt that the Rockefeller Republicans have for the middle class, regarding it as a roadblock to their ability to make the money they should be able to make.

I believe that if the R. Republicans had their way, there would be a massive slave labor class that people would be born into, could not work their way out of, and die in. What better way to do this than by allowing unlimited numbers of illegal aliens to come and stay.”

Their grand vision is the whole world in like Mexico, India, China. The working poor and the very rich.



If you have to ask .....
If you have to ask, you will not understand the answer! I bet the ones who ask are mostly Dumbacrats!

WHAT!
The New York Times says billions are being lifted out of poverty. How is this possible? I thought it was accepted fact at the NYT that people were getting poorer around the world. Those guys are way ahead of us in economics. How can their government make better decisions than ours? Which programs are responsible for this? Is it their medicare program, social security program, food stamps? We need to find out. Robert, are you out there?

I invite you all...
...to join a group of people who are educating ourselves and each other on the Principles of Capitalism and Prosperity. Go to http://www.freecapitalist.com. There you can join in some great discussions about capitalism, truth, and prosperity, and learn more about what our Founding Fathers called, 'Prosperity Economics'. There is also an archive of great Free Capitalist Radio shows to enjoy. I hope to see you there!

Hazlitt?
Anybody smart enough to cite Hazlitt is worth listening to. Right on and write on. Thank God there remain some bright people in this land.

PHd. JD
Amen! That is an amazing book. I used to be all concerned about the so-called 'trade deficit' with other countries until I read that book. It explains why it is perfectly ludicrous to worry about it. After all, I'm not concerned about my 'trade deficit' with Wal-Mart!

Research Funding
Fletch, I don't think I intended to imply that the public sector was laying out more money for drug research.

However, the NIH forks out about 60 billion for 'basic research' in the biological sciences, with a strong emphasis on disease treatment. Your typical scientist will go the academic route - Grad student, post-doc, PI, then possibly get on as a consultant for a company or start up their own. Scientists will peel off to industry all along that track. Essentially it is a huge subsidy for the Pharm industry. If it didn't exist, the Pharm companies would have to set up their own basic science labs and train all their own scientists. It's possible that would be a cheaper way to bring products to the market, but you wouldn't know until academic research didn't exist.

However, research for it's own sake will reveal universal principles you might not get in industry labs and it's unclear whether there would be the same level of basic research without gov. sponsored research (Now before you complain, I'll let you know that I'm in the industry and even though most scientist complain there isn't enough funding, I'm one of the few who believes there's too much).

As far as having rival companies doing independent basic research and having scientific findings being totally proprietary, my instincts are that it would be detrimental, but who knows?


GreenDay, Fletch ...
... thanks for an interesting discussion!

I'm at a company that sells to the NIH-funded labs as well as to Big Pharma, so I have some first-hand knowledge of the 'space'.

GreenDay, have you considered that the $60B that the NIH 'forks out' is tax-extorted money that drains the pool of investment capital? It is a huge stretch to re-define that as a tax-subsidy, just because some of the NIH-trained scientists wind up at Big Pharma.

Although the NIH spends this money in well-intentioned areas of research, there is a lot of academic puffery that is also involved.

Sure, the NIH-funded projects provide a space for the GradStudent-to-PI evolution to take place. But the best research actually comes out of academic-labs that are funded by COMMERCIAL companies.

If not for the tax-extortion, there would actually be MORE commercial funding of academic-labs, for pure science as well as applied research.

In an idealogical discussion such as this, we should be careful not to assume that a system is 'good' because it ocasionally yields good results.

I sometimes refer to this as the "public highway" metaphor. People who try to defend big-Govt projects often say "but who would build the highways" if everything was private.

I usually respond: "maybe we would be in flying cars by now, if not for big-Govt highways".

I'm reminded of the line from "Back to the Future", in which the wild-eyed scientist says "where we're going, we don't need roads"

Leftists are correct ..
.. Capitalism is harsh and gritty

Leftists often complain bitterly about the harsh grittiness of Capitalism.

In their view, Capitalism suffers from the following fatal flaws:

* it creates a society that is competitive - some would say that it is brutally competitive
* it rewards risk-taking, but punishes mistakes
* it does not provide a safety net for the less competent

The above flaws, Leftists say, can be removed by means of a layer of control (usually via the Govt), acting as a benevolent force for good. Although well-intentioned, those controls inexorably chip away at the source of Capitalism's power - the freedom of individuals to improve themselves, thereby reaching a higher level of success.

The result is often much harsher, and certainly a lot grittier! Opponents of Capitalism would say that the lack of success of the alternatives just mean that they (e.g. Soviet Russia, Cuba, North Korea) just didn't find the right mix of benevolent Government and freedom. They would like to tweak the recipe and keep trying, in the hope of finding that magic formula.

The reality is that the very concept of a well meaning 'nanny' Government kills the incentives and the accountability implied in Capitalism. The safety net of a mixed economy is not protectively under citizens - it is above them, keeping them down, eliminating that which makes people work harder, take risks and prosper.

By ensuring the best use of resources, Capitalism reduces the overall level of poverty. The fact that this is achieved without it being a stated goal renders moot the effusive smarminess and sloganeering of Leftist propaganda.
-------------end of excerpt-------------------
http://voice.townhall.com/g/dd4ccb27-499e-4a97-999b-41b1187 19833

Child Labor in China and India

Leftists used to complain that ..
.. we (Americans) were exploiting poor people in countries such as India, China, etc. In their rhetoric, we Capitalists were getting rich AT THE EXPENSE of the poor & starving on other continents.

Now that Capitalism is actually improving the lives of millions in those countries - what are Leftists doing? They are still blaming Capitalism.

By 'discovering' Anthropogenic Global Warming, Leftists have found something else to bash Capitalism.

It is ironic that the Indian or Chinese peasant who is just crawling out of the muck of poverty (as a result of their first breath of Capitalism) will actually be the victim of Leftist do-gooders.

On second thoughts, that isn't really unusual - the road to Leftist He|| is paved with good intentions.

Unca Alby
How scary! You and I think alike. If it is at all true (and I'm not saying it is) that oil companies try to block new energy technologies (I can't remember where I heard this, probably from a liberal), I never thought that made sense. As you pointed out, what happened to the blacksmiths, the carriage makers, etc.? Well, they would "evolve" or perish. They could become mechanics and make cars, etc. It's not like the companies in the end would "lose", they would just change the product they were selling.

You are right, it's a long painful road, but it's quite obvious that people just don't understand that concept. We want it all and we want it now. We're like little babies and toddlers - we haven't learned "delayed gratification".

And as for the poor in America - they are nowhere near "poor" compared with other countries around the world - cars, jewelry, TV, obesity. It's just another way to divide and conquer instead of working together for a better world.

Who Cares About The Poor In China?
Most financial wizards I have read have indicated that the "fiscal stimulus" package is just politics. They are going to borrow money to give to the people to go on a shopping spree which is what got the economy in trouble in the first place. (And I thought Bush's tax cuts were supposed to fix the economy.)

Six years in complete control of the government and the Republicans did not balance the budget, they did not get rid of earmarks and they did nothing but help big business.

The middle class historically has looked out for people still at the bottom. What I don't understand is the vitriol directed at people on welfare or Social Security - but you have nothing but adoration for the filthy rich and those who have power and connections and are not afraid to use them to further enrich themselves, including our politicians.

People on welfare have miserable lives you wouldn't want. Punishing them only hurts the innocent children and results in violence, crime and wasted lives. People in Haiti are eating mud cookies and I suppose if you are that poor you probably lack even clean water to drink. I guess the Republicans won't be happy until the poor in America are living in huts with sewage running down the street.

We import Chinese goods because it is cheap - no worker's rights, no environmental protections, nobody to stop the lead from getting in the toys - not because we care about their poor.

The Left is Pathetic...

"They are starving in China! We must feed Africa! Farm Aid! Feed the Children!"

Heard it all my life from the Liberals. And now that Capitalism is "feeding" the world, and "their" wages are going up...

The Liberals say, let these people to starve again?

That fact that "100's of millions" of people aren't starving anymore, says one thing...

Ronald Reagan was 100% Right :)

God Bless Ronald Reagan! He fed the World.

Carlos
writes, "God Bless Ronald Reagan! He fed the World"

Amen. I do believe he may have done more to that end than anyone heretofore has.

Unfortunately, look at ink og neato just above. Mired in guilt, needing someone to blame it on. Hey, ink, do you actually know one of these vile uncaring republicans personally? I bet you don't. I have never met one in 46 years.

Assigning feelings to inanimate objects or abstract concepts tends to muddle a discussion. Ink still doesn't get it. Haiti could pull itself(meaning the people, Ink) up with simple reforms. It is happening everywhere nowadays. That is the point of Mr Stossel's fine column.

ink og neato
Didn't mean to psychoanalyze you in public. You were a handy example. The fact you are here means you are way ahead of many others in seeking the truth. Stick around. Read Stossel, Sowell, and Williams and learn. Walter Williams has concisely laid out exactly what reforms most of these countries need to become just as wealthy as we are eventually. The problem is, they have to choose to do it.

ink og neato - cute handle
"(And I thought Bush's tax cuts were supposed to fix the economy.)"

They did. But that was years ago.

The new fix needs to be to make those tax cuts permanent.



"Six years in complete control of the government and the Republicans did not balance the budget, they did not get rid of earmarks ... "

Well, I hope you're not looking for an argument by stating the obvious. Most of us have been making that same complaint repeatedly. Many of us blame the Congressional Upset of 2006 on exactly that.



"What I don't understand is the vitriol directed at people on welfare or Social Security"

There is no vitriol against the PEOPLE on welfare -- the vitriol is against the SYSTEM.

As has been demonstrated, when you put limits on the dole, when there's no other choice, the able-bodied DO get up and get jobs, then start moving up in life. Ultimately, they make more money, get more self-respect, and are happier.

The welfare programs previously had no limits. Multi-generational welfare recipients was all too common. THAT is what hurt people and created violence.

The point I think you're missing is that all of these wonderful "feel good" programs that are supposed to "help" people only accomplish two things -- they make liberals "feel good", and they give Government more Power at the expense of our Liberties.

Unfortunately, making a liberal "feel good" does NOT actually help the poor.

Hitchhiker has some good advice. Read the archives for Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, John Stossel, Jacob Sullum, just to name a few.

Bush's Voodoo Economics?
Everybody is a comedian.

------------

"Six years in complete control of the government and the Republicans did not balance the budget, they did not get rid of earmarks and they did nothing but help big business."

Don't have much to say about that, huh?

Bushy said in the SOTU address that we should not let his tax cuts expire and that he will have balanced the budget by 2012. It was reported in a financial column that in order for their to be a "slight surplus" in 2012 we will have to let the tax cuts expire and we will have to keep the alternative minimum tax.

Hocus Pocus.

@ Uncle Alby Hitchhiker
Hitchhker, everybody thinks they are a comedian.

------------

Ink og neato is just the latest of my townhall reincarnations. Townhall is dishonest. I have been repeatedly censored and locked out. I am karennkc, incognito, kcincognito, I forget them all. Here's why: http://www.brokenarrowfortheworld.blogspot.com

--------------------

No, that was not years ago, the tax cuts are still in effect.

Yes, welfare reform was a good thing, that does not explain the hatred for people who are on Social Security, disabled or just down on their luck.

I certainly would not like to be in the position of having to rely on the kindness and generosity of the likes of you townhallers.


BTW, Bushy said in the SOTU address that we should not let his tax cuts expire and that he will have balanced the budget by 2012. It was reported in a financial column that in order for their to be a "slight surplus" in 2012 we will have to let the tax cuts expire and we will have to keep the alternative minimum tax.

Hocus Pocus.

Double Entry
Disregard the first entry, it did not show and then I responded to Uncle Alby.

Limits are still limits
Stossel is right-but only to a point.The rapidly growing Chinese (and others) economy is good for us. As populations become more wealthy, they become more educated, civil and less prone to destabilizing threats like war. We all benefit-even if some get dislocated in the process. I get it

Still we are missing the not-so-minor detail. Resources. Stossel touches on them like, well things are tight but dont worry human ingenuity and the market will provide. I say not so fast. There is only so much oil, gas, coal, copper, lead, gold, and even helium on this planet. When we run short, stuff gets expensive. When we no longer get enough (fill in the blank) we better have that alternative lined up. Some things do have alternatives. Recycling will do its part (look at how much aluminum we recover).Other things, well we have not quite not worked that out yet.

Like oil. 95% of all transportation is dependent on it.More prosperity means more cars.More cars means more fill-ups. More fill-ups means more oil demanded. There is no way,no how we will ever be able to see China and India motor around like we do. Not gonna happen (with oil). Look at both private oil companies and major nationalized oil companies. Theyve maxed out. Many are in decline. As in they produce less and less even as they drill more, faster and deeper. Basic geology folks. If we dont got it in the ground, we cant use it.

We better focus on replacing oil (and gas) with WHATEVER comes next. But we arent doing that in anywhere near the amounts required to displace fossil fuels. Fossil fuels account for 80% or more of the total energy consumed on the planet-all of which WILL go into decline. Renewable sources-1-5% depending on what you are counting.

Watching China prosper is neat-I am in awe with what they have accomplished. Still, I dont think we've answered that basic question on how we can sustain growth based on the consumption of finite resources.

Answer that and I will agree with Stossel

now welfare reform is a good thing?
INK OG NEATO, you say, "Yes, welfare reform was a good thing, that does not explain the hatred for people who are on Social Security, disabled or just down on their luck."

Have you forgotten the awful. terrible things that were going to happen in the wake of welfare reform? Comments such as the following that were put in the Congressional record? ``We may have to relive the misery and moral disintegration of England in the 19th century to learn what happens when society deserts its most vulnerable members.'' Welfare reform was villified as exactly what the second part of your statement says. Which side of the fence are you on?

Limits are still limits - so what?
Peajay frets because somebody is not doing something fast enough. I just got back from a vacation on Hainan Island in China, and travelled in taxis with dual fuel systems. They could run on either gasoline or natural gas. These drivers chose natural gas, not because they felt they were doing the right thing, but because it was cheaper. Who knows what tomorrow brings? I wouldn't fret about limits, unless it is governments that mandate what tomorrow brings.

Contempt Prior To Investigation
Before a person starts shouting "the sky is falling", we're depleting all resources, blah, blah, blah...

I suggest you do more research.

Our resources are plentiful; in comparison to consumption we're not doing too bad, actually. The greater demand for varied forms of energy the greater the research into such projects. The market will do what it needs to do to bring us forward.

Did we really need a government to tell us to stop using horse-drawn carriages and the downfalls of the clean-up of our streets? No.

The "Human Haters", otherwise known as environmentalists, would have you believe that humans are damaging the environment by utilizing resources natural to the earth. It's a canard that should be challenged head on.

Do yourself a favor and arm yourself with facts -it irritates the ecoterrorists.

Don't accept some rant without facts and scientifically peer reviews to back it up.

Read: A Poverty of Reason, by Wilfred Beckerman, you'll be glad you did.

Greater prosperity for other nations who bring themselves to economic independence, the better.

Competition breeds innovation.

Always question the motives of those who would seek to keep others suffering: be it economy independence, torturous dictators, narrow-minded philosophies, and other viewpoints which seek to control and manipulate.

If your choices are limited by someone or not given at all, then you're being controlled and/or manipulated for personal agenda.

All interests are self-interests.

C_Miner
The notion that capitalists in the private sector cannot see olong-term financial benefits and are instead focused on the short-term is completely specious. If that were the case, much of the technological advancement that has occurred in the world (without government intervention) would never have occurred.

Space exploration is something of a special case - not because the private sector could not have made the same advances more cheaply (albeit over a longer period _ but because of the reaon for its existence. The US space program was, more than anything else, a salses pitch to get the American public to willingly finance improved ICBM technology.

The heavy lifting capabilities necessary to put satellites into orbit were developed by the public funding not because the private sector was incapable but because there was a huge demand for the military application.

The Canard in sheep's clothing
"Still, I don't think we've answered that basic question on how we can sustain growth based on the consumption of finite resources."

This is based on what information on resources?

Where are your facts?

Cite your sources and provide them for all of us to look at and examine ourselves.

You make claims for which you couldn't possibly know.

If you claim the sources we know of right now are finite, you then negate the resources yet to be discovered. Between 1970 and 1997 many resources once thought to be finite were discovered in other areas the world had yet to investigate.

Your post might be well intentioned but if you're taking the advice of ecoterrorists and human haters then your being misdirected. Don't fall for the emotional rhetoric of such people.





Anna
China and India are prospering because they are embracing ever more capitalistic activities and creating wealth. That we are devaluing our currency due to excessive givernment spenditures is a universally bad thing regardless of who we trade with (even if its internal). The holders of US currency are harmed in any event. This is not a valid argument against free trade.

And there is no chance of the destruction of the middle class that you seem to believe is right around the corner.

GreenDay cont.
You must understand that there is a huge demand for higher educational services (including in such scientific fields) even in the complete absence of federal subsidy either in the form of NIH handouts or tuition caps or what have you. It is the problem mentioned earlier wherin the existing situation is deemd a starting point that must exist in order for conditions to progress. Thus, it is not necessary for those demanding scientists to create their own basic science labs and/or educational facilities, though certainly that is possible and even advisable in some case, because the market creates such institutions on its own. This facilitates BOTH targeted and basic research. Don't assume that the desire to know is only satisfied by governmental subsidy.

As far as having rival companies doing independent basic research and having scientific findings being totally proprietary, the market incentive to make such discoveries available in the open market outweighs any benefit of long-term monopolistic control. There would typically be a period of withholding from the marketplace as expenses are recouped but this is not necessarily a bad thing (and the entire basis of patent law) by increasing the incentive to engage in such research.

Sorry ink
The reason that the “stimulus” package giveaways are just politics and the tax RATE cuts WERE stimulus is that handouts and rate cuts have entirely different impacts on the economy. Rate cuts alter behavior; handouts don’t.

No one here is going to defend this administration’s level of spending. It is, however, fair to say that earmarks are largely a congressional problem and the comment about “big buisiness” is nothing more than an ad hominem attack.

The vitriol aimed at the Welfare State is not, by and large, aimed at the recipients, but rather at the deplorable record of these programs, fostering dependency, INCREASING poverty, yielding abysmally poor returns for the moneys paid in. They harm the very people they are ostensibly designed to help.

We import Chinese goods because it is cheaper and our labor can be more effectively be employed in other pursuits. This generates a HUGE benefit for American consumers and creates more and better paying jobs here. At the same time, it is the greater trade with China that has increased the level of prosperity for the workers there leading to demands for more rights and political access.

I must question the competence of the author of the so-called “financial column” as no rational economic or financial analysis could possibly yield the result that such tax policies would yield a budget surplus. The only way that such an outcome would be possible is if tax policies had no impact on economic performance of any kind – and clinging to that belief is just stupid.

peajay
Gotta go, but I suggest you read Julian Simon's "Ultimate Resource 2" and Ludwig von Mises' "Human Action". The market has universally proven entirely capable of dealing with the issue of resource scarcity (remember Paul Ehrlich's insistance that mass starvation would ravage the West by the end of the 20th Century). As prices rise, the incetives to find more or to develop alternatives always prove adequate to meet consumer demand. It is impossible to know in advance what those alterantives will be (there was a real worry that there would be a shortage of horses - the only viable means of land transportation), but you can be certain that they will arise.

peajay
Also look up the Club of Rome, and the famous bet between Julian Simon and Paul Ehrlich. Don't bet against the free market filling a need. If I can personally get rich (and never have to work again) by being inovative, then my personal laziness can result in an invention (or innovation) that will make your life better because I want you to buy my invention (so I won't have to work anymore).

F1etch @6:36
There are very few companies who will invest in high-cost, high-risk, long-term before any yield investments. In my field of mining the slow and steady release of ore or coal is often what makes or breaks a mine. If there is 5 years of production costs before the first ore is processed and the next five years are ore without any waste mining then odds are that the deposit will not be developed. CVRD (iron ore suppliers)in Brazil is one of the few companies that is willing to use other operations to cover shortfalls at a particular operation, but the longest I've heard of them using other operations to cover a stripping program is 3 years.

The economics of space were closer to a 25 year development before profits could be recovered. I stand by my belief that no private enterprise would support a money-hole for 25 years prior to seeing a profit. IMHO that's a large part of why the tech bubble burst: the expected profits never materialized, and investors got tired of waiting and took their money (as a herd) elsewhere. Yes, there were military applications. Very few fields do not have military or strategic applications, and I don't see them as the driver of this discussion.

A lot of the private market research is looking for incremental gains. The massive increase in mining truck size in the last 20 years is a result in the incremental improvements in tire technology, not from the development of a new way to haul. Most companies look for a way to get a 1% improvement in their process, and spend far less looking for a totally new process.

You Got The Government You Deserve THers
What I’ve been trying to say is that townhallers only look out for themselves. From your attitudes about “entitlement” programs to your mistaken belief that America has done no wrong, never has, never will – it’s your inability to look at anything from a perspective other than your own. You people are supremacists. You twist everything around until it suits you and you can look straight at the facts and only see what you want to see.

There are two very distinct groups of people here. The “religious right” types pretend that the “hateful redneck” types do not exist and vice versa. Come to think of it, the “religious right” types do display some “hateful redneck” tendencies, maybe that’s why it works. At any rate, I know from personal experience that the two groups do not even like each other. The beer-drinking, profanity-spouting, intolerant rednecks do not think much of the “Bible-thumping,” holier-than-thou Jesus-freaks. Mighty strange bedfellows.

What do you expect? Your government is the government you deserve. The Republicans you elect are RINOs and do not do what they say they will do, what you want them to do, because THEY are only looking out for themselves. They get elected and suddenly they forget the little peons even exist.

Did our representatives invent greed, graft? Maybe they ARE truly representative.

ink og neato - - -
"What I’ve been trying to say is that townhallers only look out for themselves."

Again you state the obvious. Such is the nature of humanity.

This is why Capitalism works and Socialism fails. The former relies on human selfishness, while the latter pretends selfishness can be wished away, with the help of government force if need be.

Would you claim that the denizens of DailyKoz look out for anyone but themselves? Hmmmm?

No, liberals only set up their failure-prone programs to make themselves "feel good", so they can "feel" like they're "giving back." Nevermind the harsh realities that their socialistic programs, at best, do nothing but waste tax dollars, but more typically, make the problems even worse.


"You twist everything around until it suits you and you can look straight at the facts and only see what you want to see."

You, on the other hand, don't waste your time dealing with such minor inconveniences and disregard the facts entirely.



The rest of your venom is not worth responding to. It's no wonder you have to keep coming back with new monikers. Apparently, like most toe-tagged liberals, you are unable to learn from hard experience.

nations get the worst they'll accept
In the western world, (capitalist portion) the best and brightest go where they can best make personal lives for themselves, usually into business. In a free society, people will decide the type of life they want to live and will usually look for the easiest way to get there. They're often wrong about how to get there (which is why there are lotteries) but the system usually let folks go where they want. When they get to where they feel they are living comfortably, these folks usually share their good fortune with the less fortunate (look at the recent study on charitable donations to see that the more conservative feel better about giving more of what they've earned).

The US dynamo-that-powers-the-world economy is the result of the belief that business is the best refuge of those who excel. European style low growth/high unemployment is a sure sign of a "managed" socialistic-as-a-parasite economy. Economic basket cases are the result of communism or socialist-as-full-government-control economies. The current slowdown is a sign that US governmental growth is too high, and is exerting the usual effect of government control upon the market (ie slowing it down).

Actually - pt 1
There are very many companies that are willing to invest in high-cost, high-risk, long-term before any yield investments. In fact, they do so in order to improve the time horizon for such returns. Contrary to liberal belief, investment in solar technology was not hindered by oil companies but rather heavily invested in (even though returns are still marginal) because someone could eventually make a buck in it. BP Solar is a prime example.

Mining has existed for millenia and has been a great example over time of people making just such questionable investments when the return was deemed to be sufficiently great. That greater expenditures into mining are not because the mining companies do not thing long-term but rather the return on such investments is not sufficient to justify expenditure at this time - a very common occurence in such a mature industry.

The 25 year time horizon for space is entirely arbitrary (and ridiculously long) particularly for satellites and communications technology. the private sector was investing heavily in that field even before the space race began (my father worked for Martins (now Lockhead Martin) working on those type projects before moving on to the Gemini Program. Actual history undermines the argument that such investments would not take place even if the notion that capitalism cannot think sufficiently long-term had not already been long refuted.

Actually - pt 2
The tech bubble burst had NOTHING to do with impatience. It was caused by manipulation of the marketplace (as all booms and busts are) as tax policy and too-free money from the Fed resulted in malinvestments that became unsustainable when market conditions changed (tax laws and tighter money).

Market investment always seeks to meet the consumer's most urgent needs (whether the government intervenes or not). As those needs are met, a greater portion of capital is allocated to meeting longer term needs (as entrepreneurs expect a greater return). Artidifially accelerating the time horizon of any line of production (by the state) inevitably results in the loss of a GREATER amount of other goods more demanded by consumers. It is inevitably a lose-lose situation.

Sorry, again, ink
"What I’ve been trying to say is that townhallers only look out for themselves."

All you are doing is projecting your own biases. THers are great advocates of private charity. Our attitudes about "entitlement" have to do with the lack of any such "entitlement:" existing and the greater societal harm that such programs create. This perspective isn't insular; it is based on an accurate reading of history with a basic understanding of economic concepts and their application.

That you choose not to grasp those concepts does not make what we are saying "twisted", but, rather, your take on what is actually said. The failure of "entitlement" programs to better society is a fact. That the 2001 tax cuts were effective as stimulus is a fact. That handouts are NOT effective as stimulus is a fact. That trade with China is not detrimental to the US economy is a fact. Do a little actual research.

Put another way
Under capitalism, the best and brightest go where they can best improve their standard of living and what accomplishes that is determining how best to meet the needs of consumers. This is a net benefit for everyone. While making such determinations is always somewhat speculative (which is why some experience losses), the vast majority of entrepreneurial activity is successful in such predictions of future consumer needs. This is why capitalism has created more prosperity than any other system ever conceived by Man.

When successful people reach a certain living standard, the plight of the less fortunate creates a level of unease greater than what had previously been more urgent concerns and charitable giving increases substantially. This is true despite governmental intervention into the charity business that drives out private charity and replaces it with grossly inefficient government charity.

Alas, the current slowdown is not due to greater government intervention NOW but rather irresponsible intervention over the long haul. It is entirely a monetary phenomenon driven by too-free money between 2003 and 2005 and an over-tightening up until about a year ago. This all-too-frequent intervention by the central bank (in our case the Fed) is what creates the boom bust cycle that plagues us (albeit excessive taxation can also play a role which is why tax RATE cuts have a mediative effect).

F1etch @12:16
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on long-term investment. Individuals play the lottery, and grassroots mining exploration & prospecting are a lottery of their own (I've been involved in both) that are played by few. As you stated, mature companies look at the return on investment. The discount and inflation rates used will usually rule out anything beyond 10 years let alone twenty (which touches on my current job).

Yes, 25 years was arbitrary. I tried a WAG value based upon history. I don't know how the communications infrastructure used for terrestrial communications (ie microwave, early research for cellular) are different from the approach taken for space based communications, so can't speak further to whether that was new or adaptive/incremental research.

Can you suggest some reference reading for financial long range planning within the capitalistic system (not to be confused with personal long range planning)? It seems counter-intuitive to my experience.

Agreed upon energy companies diversifying. Another reason why is that sometimes analysis of alternatives to your bread-and-butter gives you a better grasp on how long your current technology stands to be dominant.

The best suggestion...
...I can give you is that you find a copy of "Human Action" and read chapters XV: The Market, XVIII: Ation in the Passing of Time" and XXVII: The Governmnet and the Market.

The whole book is worth recommending (very highly) but it's nearly 900 pages long (and a bit of a tough go for the layman) so I at least presented those chapters that bear upon the issue. I can't say which best covers it (it's been a while since I read the whole thing) but the insights are invaluable:

http://www.mises.org/resources/3250

One Thing about Long Term Planning
I have heard that many businesses don't like to plan too far ahead, for anything. I've heard many people kvetch about that, and compare American businesses unfavorably to Japanese businesses with their 10 year plans.

Unfortunately, the American political landscape can change dramatically every 4 years, which can throw a lot of long-term plans into the toilet.

That's one reason why sometimes it's pretty hard to find a job around the September/October time-frame. Any decision that can be put off will be, including hiring decisions, until they find out who's going to win the election in November.

Sometimes it's better to have a less-than-perfect public policy that's *stable* than it is to bounce around experimenting with different policies until nobody can easily plan for the future.

This is another good reason to make the tax cuts permanent. It gives people something about the future they can depend on and plan around. People will make more investments and stimulate the economy more if they don't have to worry so much about the rug being pulled out from under them.

Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged"
Should be foundational literature in every high school sophmore english class in America. But wait, those would be public employee institutions by and large wouldn't they? Silly me. My sincerest hope is that govt. interference in the "free-market" economy we're supposed to enjoy here, compells our free market leaders to set up shop in more business friendly climes. Govt. encumberances, taxes, regulations etc., make moving elsewhere to conduct business more inviting all the time.

Uh...no...
"What I’ve been trying to say is that townhallers only look out for themselves."

I have news for you, every person everywhere is only interested in their own personal interests.

There is no action or deed that is not self-interest motivated.

scooternyc
"I have news for you, every person everywhere is only interested in their own personal interests.

There is no action or deed that is not self-interest motivated. "

*******

You are wrong.

scooter is unconditionally correct
"[E]very person everywhere is only interested in their own personal interests.... There is no action or deed that is not self-interest motivated."

That statement is incontestible. There is no action that can be demonstrated NOT to be one of self-interest. Undertaking action to preserve the identity of the self, to adhere to religious tenets or to engage in charitable activities in order to relieve the unease presented to them by the suffering of others is all a function of self-interest.

The choice to believe otherwise consists of nothing more than self-deception.

viruddh
You say, "you are wrong"

Great.

Please tell us all how I am wrong.

scooternyc
"viruddh
You say, "you are wrong"

Great.

Please tell us all how I am wrong. "


Well, the Clintons feel your pain and everyone's pain. Right there is an example proving viruddh's point.

Clinton's Feel Your Pain
I can't remember when I've heard a more ridiculous statement.
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