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Wednesday, January 09, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Live and Let Live, Says One Candidate
by John Stossel
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Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul opposes things like prostitution and drug use, but he says the federal government has no business trying to stop adults from engaging in them. Freedom of choice, he says, shouldn't just be restricted to choices he approves of. It's the job of the federal government, says the congressman, to protect us from external threats, but it should not try to protect us from ourselves.

Here's the final edited installment of my interview with him.

John Stossel: Would you legalize marijuana, cocaine and heroin?

Ron Paul: I would get the government out of regulating all those substances and would allow the states to deal with the problems, such as whether children can buy cigarettes and alcohol or hard drugs or marijuana. Different states would probably do different things. The first federal law against marijuana was in 1938 -- the government (controlled marijuana) through high taxation because it knew it didn't have authority to say that you're not allowed to smoke marijuana. Today it's gone berserk. The federal government overrules a state (California) that has legalized marijuana for very sick people with AIDS and cancer. That's how absurd the war on drugs has become.

 Could a state legalize heroin? 

Under our federal system of government, that would be the case. If you ask the people who are against (legalization of heroin) if they would use it, they say, "Oh, no, I wouldn't use it! It's always those other people that might use it, so I have to take care of them and prevent them from doing harm to themselves."

 Is that a proper role for government? 

No, I don't believe so. The government should not be involved in personal habits. I have no problem with state laws that protect children from the use of these drugs. But under the Constitution, the president and the federal government wouldn't have a say in it.

Should gays be allowed to marry? 

Sure. They can do whatever they want, and they can call it whatever they want, just so they don't expect to impose their relationship on somebody else. They can't make me, personally, accept what they do, but gay couples can do what they want. I'd like to see all governments out of the marriage question. I don't think it's a state function; it's a religious function. There was a time when only churches dealt with marriage. But a hundred years or so ago, for health reasons, the state claimed that to protect us, you had to get a license to get married. I don't agree with that.

Prostitution

I think when you defend freedom, you defend freedom of choice. You can't be picking and choosing how people use those freedoms. I don't believe government can legislate virtue. I can reject (vice) personally and preach against it, whether it's drugs or prostitution, but my solution comes from my personal behavior and how I raise my children. Whether it's personal behavior or economic behavior, I want people to have freedom of choice.

You seem to be saying that adults own their own bodies. If a woman wants to rent hers out or someone wants to smoke crack, that's their business. 

Yeah. People make bad choices in religion and philosophy, but we don't regulate their thinking or their religious beliefs if they're not harming other people. That's why I defend this position that government can't protect individuals from themselves. It's just impossible. (And when it tries) it becomes a tyrannical state.

Which brings us to abortion. What do you think of Roe vs. Wade? 

It was a federal encroachment over state laws, so I wouldn't have that.

So some states might outlaw abortion, and other states would allow it. That'd be OK with you?

That is right. Under our system, unless you change the Constitution, that's the way it should be taken care of.

You consider it murder, but it should be allowed if a state so chooses?

I don't use that term. I (say it is) a tragic set of circumstances, and life should be protected.

John Stossel's complete interview with Rep. Ron Paul can be found online at http://tinyurl.com/237a5z.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Individual freedom
requires individual responsibility. No one in this campaign embodies that position better than Dr. Paul.

Message to the Republican Party
Message to the Republican Party
There is a faction of the Republican party lead by Pat Buchanon, Ron Paul and others that oppose the Bush foreign policy as unmanageable. You can either deal with us or try to keep marginalizing us. If you do keep marginalizing us don't be surprised if we come to the conclusion that the Republican Party has left us just as the Democratic party left Reagan.

This article pointed out how Paul and his supporters get categorized as kooks. This is very frustrating for me as I have been to a meet-up group in Cincinnati and found about a hundred people from several backgrounds and ethnicities all just excited about a message of freedom and sound monetary policy. I never met one "truther" or racist(that I could tell).

As for my conservative cred-here goes.

I am an Army brat and a veteran and have voted Republican in every election since 1988. I have always been described by my friends here in conservative Cincinnati as a strict conservative. I have been reading Townhall columns everyday for five years now with my favorite being Ann Coulter and Mike Adams. I own all of Ann's books as well as about 30 others from assorted conservative authors. I am here to tell you if Ron Paul keeps getting the treatment he has and at least is not allowed to speak at the Republican convention I will kiss the Republicans goodby and vote Democrat even if I puke afterwords.

I promise I won't be the only one. You better hope it's not a close election

Don't Punish the Country
for your disappointment with the mainstream Republican Party, Rama.
If you like Ann Coulter and Mike Adams, you must have a sense of humor about the activities of people who want to destroy our natural liberty so that others can have their unearned privileges. Ron Paul has received a good press; he is able to spread classical liberal ideas and is influencing the public, as well as the other candidates. It's only natural to be criticized when you're outside the mainstream. The only time you're not being criticized is when you're not doing anything significant. If you let criticism control you, you will end up doing dishonorable things. Why not instead desensitize yourself to criticism, the way Ann Coulter has done. Her bravery is what makes her so funny and effective.

I happen to agree
with RP on this one. There is NOTHING in the Consitution that gives the Feds the authority to make any drug illegal. As for prostitution, I was not aware that there were federal laws on that score.

People attack Ron Paul
But they do not understand something. It is not the messenger it is the Message.
Ron Paul is attacked all the time.
For example the war.
Even though the constitution says in black and white Congress has to declare war. It says in Black and white you can own a gun too.
You are an idiot if you think there is a differecne
Congress can not vote with out amendment to the constitution to allow the president to declare war. So dont talk about resolutions.
The Neo conservative thinks 19 Islamists in 9/11/2001 forever changed their ability to live free and enjoy linerty. I do not agree. NO ONE COMES INTO MY COUNTRY AND CHANGES MY CONSTITUTION WITH OUT TAKING MY LIFE FIRST.
America is about liberty first comfort second.

If John McVain, UpChuckHuck, or liberal Mitt has a plan to win the war why not reveal it. Institute a draft and win it. So our boys can come home.
Why have we not won this war? Why have we not even mentioned how to define winning? And best of all why do the Islamists determine when and if we can win. According to Mitt and McCain we can only win if they give up. Guess what people who strap bombs to there children are not going to give up.

Agreement in principle but not practice
I agree with nearly everything Ron Paul says on the principled front end (exception - foreign policy), but I wonder why he doesn't examine the practical back-end, i.e. the "blowback".

That govt can't competently legislate against vice or for virtue is a true principle. Sadly, however, it is flawed in practice because it doesn't address the blowback from doing so or not doing so. For example, govt ceases all regulation of a vice - drugs (controlled substances) - and hosts of citizens merrily take them up and destroy their lives thereby, becoming charity cases. In steps those who would legislate virtues - compassion and charity - and voilà, the welfare state is born out of another true principle, namely, that it is far easier to convince the masses that govt can competently legislate virtue.

From the foregoing, one realizes that conservatives forestall the welfare state by legislating against vice, thereby obviating the need to legislate for the virtues required to finance the costs of vice publicly. And given that socialism's main tenet is that govt can competently create a virtuous, just society via legislation, one realizes that Ron Paul's principles describe one possible point of departure leading down the Road to Serfdom.

Consequences
Well said, RCB.

We can't escape the fact that what we do affects others. Prostitution destroys our communities; drugs that impair the way your brain functions can ruin families and cause the death of others. Just because adults agree to do something doesn't mean innocent people won't have to pay the price for it. It's usually other people that have to clean up after the irresponsible actions of consenting adults, e.g. caring for them after their brain self-destructs, protecting their abandonned or abused children, providing them with medical care, cleaning up the drug needle littered parks and alleyways, etc..

There must be some reasonable balance between maintaining basic liberties and protecting our communities.


Consequences
LOL, if we use the same statistical methods that the AGW people and the anti-smoking Nazis use the consequences of the drug laws are that THEY have caused a break down in society. Look at the facts, there were no drug laws before the early 1900s and we had a much more “family friendly” society.

In any case, ya’ll are arguing a point that was not the subject of the article. RP has not advocated getting rid of all drug laws, only federal ones which are not authorized by the Constitution.

Why is giving charity
to people who make the choice to screw up their brains something that should be mandated? This is a problem I have long had with Medicaid. If a person chooses to do drugs until they are wasted, or sell themselves until they catch some sort of disease, or have children they can't afford and don't want; why do we automatically assume that the taxpayers should dig them out of the hole they have dug for themselves. Yes, I feel bad for the family members that go through life with these kinds of relatives, but it is not the government's job to save us from ourselves. It is the government's job to save us from outsiders wishing to do us harm. True freedom is Free Will and accepting the consequences of your decision making. Maybe if more kids saw that as the true path to freedom we would see less sorrow, not more.

Liberty Lost
to those who think the purpose of government is the promotion of virtue.

"...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men...."

"...in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty...."

Ron Paul's got the right idea.

But we may be too far down the road to perdition and serfdom.

imagine
Imagine there's no evil
Imagine there's no STD's or HIV
Imagine there's no Sharia Law
Imagine there's no Iranian nutcase that wants to kill us all
Imagine a nation of hippies - high on drugs and making love to whomever and whatever, whenever we feel like it
Imagine Ron Paul as President

Is the GOP "conservative" anymore?
Many will rightly laugh at my even posing the question. And, regrettably, they are right to ridicule the question.

Libertarianism generally supports more freedom of individuals, and less governmental regulation.

On foreign policy, libertarians reject grandiose,(or grotesque..take your pick)schemes on nation-building, using our military as the world police, or on democracy crusades.

Because of that, it at one time was welcomed in the republican party.

Not anymore.

Not since Eisenhower has the republican party adhered to small government, rejected meddling in the affairs of its citizens(except when courts ruled certain actions of states violated civil rights of citizens), and embraced non-interventionist foreign policy.

Reagan generally was non-interventionist on foreign policy, but he did greatly expand the federal government role on the "war on drugs".

So his record is mixed.

To me, the Ron Paul supporters embody true small government conservatism.

As such, they are 180 degrees out of sych with today's republican party, ruled as it is by an assortment of big-monied corporate globalists, neocon zealots promoting foreign interventionist schemes, and the advocates for a "North American" super entity where national borders are erased.

RCB
You missed the point on getting rid of the Federal role in drug prohibition. Ron Paul is favoring letting the States enforce whatever laws they choose to pass; he is NOT calling for total decriminalization of drugs.

He's saying that the Federal total ban on marijuana, for example, doesn't make sense if in California it is legal to use for medicinal purposes. California should still be free to crack down on NON-medicinal use-- but it should be up to the individual states, not the Federal government to decide.

FOX did paul a favor by not allowing

him in the NH debate!

Had be been there, he would not have gotten 9%!

It would have been more like 1%!!!!




On second thought, he might have gotten 3%! It was NEW HAMPSIRE!



Just as a question-
How exactly does 'prostitution ruin communities'?

It seems to be working fine in Amsterdam and in Nevada. It brings in taxable revenues, and the girls are regularly checked for STDs. From everything I've read, the brothels in Nevada have HUNDREDS more applicants than they can handle, nobody is being forced to take a job in a Nevada brothel.

It seems to me that taking it OFF the streets, making sure that the girls get frequent medical checkups and making it part of the mainstream instead of underground economy would be more beneficial to the communities than what we currently have in most of our cities.

Well said Becky!
I was just thinking the same thing when I saw your post.

On another note, I am a Ron Paul supporter who lives on the Peoples Republic of Austin, Texas. I get real tired hearing from other folks here on TH that Paul supporters are a bunch of kooks. I am anything but a kook. I am a 47 year old female, who goes to work everyday, does not do drugs, been married to the same man for 23 years. One son who is a senior in college (Go Red Raiders!). My husband and I pay our own way and expects everyone else who is able body to do the same, if that makes me a kook, then so be it.

So, help me out, Laisve and RCB,
basically what you're saying is that, since the choices I make affect your life, you can control the choices I make. Is that right? Kind of like, I own an apartment complex and you rent one. You and the other tenants can get together, pass a local ordinance that dictates how much I can charge for rent. Is that right?

Or how about, I take any money I have and spend it on booze and cigarettes. Then, there's no money for food to feed the kids so I make it everyone elses responsibility to feed my kids breakfast and lunch at the local school.

If you think controlling my property or bailing me out of my financial responsibility is the best course of action, I think you guys have a perverted view of liberty.

Freedom and liberty do not come without responsibility. If you don't like the rent I charge, buy your own apartment.

In the second case, I agree that we must protect the "least of these," as Scripture puts it, but I think that means removing them from an obviously dangerous situation. It may mean taking away parental rights and placing the children with relatives or in an adoptive home.

Yes, the safety net has become a hammock and it's high time we start bootin some lazy butts out of it.

Hysterical Hysterical
I have been attacked by almost every Ron Paul supporter. They claim he is a libertarian and the only true conservative compared to every so-called RINO and neo-con we have running. They say that Rudy is a liberal, McCain is a liberal, Huckabee is a liberal, and we are all liberals if we don't subscribe to the Ron Paul wave.

So, it seems Ron Paul supports gay marriage. You can't google and paste other RP propaganda on this one, he just said it to Stossel.

Doesn't that make him a liberal? You pounded on Rudy and Mitt regarding how they had dealt with or felt about homosexuals, and accused them of not being conservative because of this. And yet, Ronnie says loud and clear he's all for gay marriage. Funny how this doesn't turn you libertarian conservative off.

To be a conservative, some have said, is based on the morality of this country and not just fiscal responsibility. Well, how is Ron going to get us back to our wholesome family values on the road to morality if he believes it's simply a personal choice or habit of an individual, and not a crime, if they chose to do heroine, prostitute, or cocaine.

Wow, he sure sounds like a conservative to me!

I am all for freedom of choice and I'm all for responsibility, but somethings shouldn't be legal for the decent people who don't want to be submerged in the muck of society.

You can twist it however you need to in order to still bow to your idol, but frankly, he is more ridiculous now than ever. So go ahead and thrash me like some of you guys do, tell me I hate this country and I hate the constitution, because you're laughably wrong.

Shells
"To be a conservative, some have said, is based on the morality of this country and not just fiscal responsibility."

Which is why I don't identify myself as a conservative. It's pathetic how the GOP keeps obsessing over gay marriage. As long as the decision to allow gay marriage comes from the people (via the legislatures or via initiative and referendum) I have no problem with it. My only area of agreement with the GOP on this issue is their opposition to court-mandated gay marriage.

The idea that I should look to corrupt and immoral politicians for moral leadering is what's ridiculous.

More and more
I probably won't vote for Ron Paul, but more and more, I really like not only his content but how he presents it.

It is not the purpose of the Constitution, which represents the federal level of government, to be regulating things like marriage and prostitution. That's the realm of the individual states comprising the United States.

While I don't think he will be my first choice in a primary vote, I wouldn't be uncomfortable voting for Paul, not the way I felt six months ago. He is not saying abortion is right or gay marriage is right; he is saying that those issues belong to the 50 states and should be decided there and by the people living in those 50 states, even if they are decided differently in many cases. And the more I listen to him, the more I agree with him. My kind of conservative.

Ron Paul is not...
...a Republican,he is a Libertarian,a different breed of cat.

Conservative: Moderation in all things.

Libertarian: Six glasses of water are good for you,so go out and drink Lake Erie.

Ron Paul ran for president on the Libertarian ticket in 1988.

Elliswyatt
Personally, gay marriage is a bit of a non issue with me. I think it would be more practicial at this point to promote civil unions, but that is nor here nor there.

What I am chuckling about is that the moment he began to campaign, his followers trashed every single candidate who was slightly a social liberal and deemed them not a true republican nor a true conservative.

I have been choking on how RP is the only conservative of the republican party.

I guess they weren't expecting this statement, huh? To the blind supporters, it's okay and there are many excuses to be had if RP makes a bold statement as this one. However, past candidates who have even said less about gay marriage were coined by the RP supporters as liberals for the same.

See what I mean?

So RP is running in the republican party, but what values does he have left over that coin him as republican?

I see his supporters now calling him a libertarian and not a republican. Is that how they cope with this?

re: Nam 65-66
Your characterization of libertarianism is entirely incorrect. Using your example, a better characterization would be: "It is neither my business or the government's how much water you drink, so long as you don't infringe upon my liberties."

RE: Hysterical Hysterical
RE: Hysterical Hysterical

Shells --

This ISN'T an attack, so please don't take it as such. It is simply a correction of facts.

He's not FOR gay marriage, he's saying that its none of his business what other people do behind closed doors. It isn't the government's role to determine who can marry; that role belongs to the church.

As far as drug use, he fully supports the State role in legislation. He's against the FEDERAL role, which has vastly overstepped its Constitutional authority.

50 laboratories of democracy
That's what Ron Paul's policies would allow. If these things are left to the States, then each State can decide what is best for themselves rather than the Federal Government's one-size-fits-all mentality. Then we could all learn from each States experiences what works and what doesn't and adjust accordingly. This is why Federalism is so important. Those of you who think that Ron Paul supports things like drug use, prostitution, abortion, and gay marriage, based on the article above, need to go back and reread it. He does NOT support them. He only supports the States' rights to regulate them, under our Constitution, not the Federal Government.

nam65 clueless on libertarianism ...
go ahead and drink Lake Erie if you want to be a dipsomaniac ... IOW the rest of us sane folks can choose not to ... and even watch like the reality show where the woman died from just such a thing.

there IS after all something to be said for personal responsibility, informing yourself on the issues, getting rid of big brother and taking control of your own life.

there's also something to be said for a populace that knows what's at stake when they blindly vote for the Big Brother candidate from the "left" or the "right" ... the false paradigm created for us by our media masters.

the marriage of big government and corporatocracy has made us a ripe target for the fascists on the left and right: personally I don't want Pinchy, Rupert, Dershowitz, Chomsky, Perle, and Wolfowitz destroying the Constitution in the name of their other more important projects ... what passes for left and right today seems suspiciously like a two card monte globalist nanny state from two different directions and perspectives!

Re: Liberal vs Conservative
When I've been reading the blogs, I've yet to find anyone who is supporting Paul deride ANY of the other Republicans as 'liberals'.

They HAVE gone against those that they see as having abandoned the traditional Republican values in favor of the 'neo-con agenda'; they've gone after them for failure to uphold their oath of office (upholding the Constitution) and they've gone after them for various issues-- but nobody that is a true Paulunteer would classify ANY of the other Republican candidates as 'liberal'.

Neo-con? Yes.
Warmonger? Yes.
Chickenhawk (with the exception of McCain and Hunter)? Yes.
Lunatic flip-floppers who pander votes to whatever crowd they are addressing? Yes.

Liberal? No f_ing way.

Getting the government out
of regulating heroin, cocaine is like sanctioning suicide. Government's role on the Federal level is to protect it's citizens from danger, hopefully by establishing a framework to build from.

We establish laws to keep people safe. The constitution is a framework not an arbiter. We decide as a people, with the constitution as our framework, what keeps us safe. We have stop signs that function to keep people safe. You could never argue that stop signs should be decided by the individual states, because it is obvious to everyone that they keep order and maintain safety. I have lunatics driving way over the speed limit in my neighborhood. Is that their constitutional right because they 'feel' more free driving fast or blowing off stop signs? NO! because it endangers me!

You can go too far creating laws, it's true, but laws are necessary for the safety of the population. Heroine addicts endanger me because they'll do anything to get their next fix, including stealing from or killing me. Transfat addicts don't....have you ever heard of a McDonald's being robbed at gunpoint for a bag of cheeseburgers and fries? Cocaine addicts endanger me. Cigarette addicts don't. We shouldn't make laws we can't enforce, but we should make laws because not all freedoms are created equal. Can we use our brains and the constitution to guide us??

Regulation
is the the restriction of an action without banning .
Regulation leaves room for taxation.
Allowing prostitution and marijuana use but regulating quallity and distribution and taxing them would fund the goverment instead of the criminals and terrorists. Then other taxes could be cut.

Ron Paul, Texas & the USA
Here's a bit of trivia you might want to know. Texas entered the Union of the United States of America in 1845 by TREATY, reserving the right to secede. Well after observing the present state of this good ole USA, I'm a Texan who is ready to secede, build our own border wall, throw out the illegal aliens (you have a Texas passport, you get to stay), keep our own oil and tote my gun anywhere I want.
RP makes a lot of sense, but he loses me on the Iraq war stance. I say "Just get 'ur done" by getting rid of this "rules of engagement" for our troups. The enemy, who has stated they want to kill us infidels, sure has no "rules" on how to kill us.

CH
I agree with you. I'm all for personal freedoms: I want to be able to smoke again in my favorite restaurant, I want my smokes to no longer have the fire proof papers (I have to inhale every 3 seconds or they go out), I want my McDonald fries to be fried in their original oil and not vegetable oil, and I want my KFC back to its old trans fat ways.

I had the Nannies intruding on my lifestyle.

However, there is a huge difference, as you said, between a herione addict and some one who likes to dip into a pumpkin pie every now and then.

A heroine addict becomes an addict by a pusher, a pusher gets it from a higher source in mass volumes, these mass volumes are able to cross our borders and infiltrate our public, our schools, our streets, our lives.

Addicts in their downward slope are homeless, jobless, penniless, and will resort to prostituion or theft to support their habit. If they have to steal, will it be by force, who will be hurt or killed?

Yeah, I think this time, I'd like the laws to stay right where they are.

Here is my Q for Dr. Paul
The junkie comes to him in his capacity as a doctor. The junkie is dying from an overdose. He has no insurance and no way to pay.
What would you do, Dr. Paul? Would a state be within their rights to put that junkie on the curb to die?
Q#2: What does it mean to you to hear the assertion that among our rights are the rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness where the question of the life of the unborn are concerned? Are you asserting that a mother has a primary property right in the fetus vs. a primary right of the fetus to its own life?
Q#3: Does a state have a Tenth Amendment right to determine the answers for #1 & #2?
Q#4: If a state recognized a gay marriage is the United States obliged to allow the marriage for purposes of federal taxes, benefits, etc.?
Q#5: How does federalism work with gay marriage when one state does not allow it and a gay married couple from another state move to a non-recognizing state and they bring a suit to enforce the privilege and immunities clause?
Q#6: Does the privilege and immunities clause guarantee my right to carry in states that do not recognize it?


Politcalsanity
No offense taken at all, here's what he said again:

"Should gays be allowed to marry?


Sure. They can do whatever they want, and they can call it whatever they want, just so they don't expect to impose their relationship on somebody else. They can't make me, personally, accept what they do, but gay couples can do what they want. I'd like to see all governments out of the marriage question. I don't think it's a state function; it's a religious function."

So, he may not be gay, he may not want to have lifestyles imposed on him---however, he could care less if gays have a viable "marriage" and it's not the government's roll to get involved.

Nothing wrong with that, I care less myself about the issue. But what I am stating, what all of you don't want to admit, if any other republican candidate said this, you all would be pig piling on them, and screeching "Ron Paul 2008!! The only one to save our country!!"

I can say this because I know this, I have seen this and read it many times the accusations flung by RP supporters at Rudy and Romney for their opinions or past actions regarding gays.

Mind you, again, I care less about gay issues, and I am undecided on my choice for candidate. What I do know, it never was RP.

Para_Dimz
Your questions 4, 5, and 6 are quite smart. I wish we could see how RP would answer that.

I guess his theory of how it should be handled has a lot of problems attached to it.

Libertarians
I have seen to distinct classes of libertarians in the history of the movement. There are the big “L” Libertarians from the party which up until a few years ago went kooky and were more in the vein of anarchists than they were true libertarians. Their platform amounted essentially to elimination of all government.

Then there are the small “l” libertarians which I consider myself one. To use the glass of water analogy that was used earlier, you are free to drink all the glasses of water you want as long as you don’t urinate on the people around you.

In other words, you need government to do certain things, primarily to protect the rights of all citizens. A government that concerns itself with protecting people from themselves and which practices socialism has gone far beyond what governments were formulated to do.

So how do we judge what laws government should have and what they should not do? We follow the written Constitution, as it is written. All of the States have one as well as the federal government. They are there in a democracy or a voting republic to protect individuals from a tyranny of the majority. If you disagree with the way they are written you act to get them changed.

When they are changed by 5 unelected judges based on their own political thoughts you no longer have the protection of the written Consitution. You have a tyranny of the courts.

RE: Live and Let Live
Robert E Lee--

Ron Paul has had the same viewpoints throughout his political career. He personally opposes abortion, since he's delivered so many babies as an OB/GYN. However, he doesn't impose his personal belief structure on any other person.

Same viewpoint on morality. He attends church regularly and is one of the most moral men that I know-- he actually DOES walk the walk.

But once again, he doesn't impose HIS beliefs on anybody else.

He's not saying these things just because he wants to be President.

An iota of research before spouting would have been prudent, IMO.

But taking Ron Paul's ideals out of the equation-- is it your position that YOU can decide what I can or cannot do? You won't let me make my own decision as to what actions I might take?

IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND

.....Ron Paul reminds me of that old tale that was written around the saying, "In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is King" ...

.....In this tale an explorer stumbles into a lost valley where all the inhabitants are blind and have been for so many centuries that they no longer have eyeballs ...

....at first they think the newcomer is strange because he talks of light and colors and stumbles and seems lost when he enters their unlit homes ...then they conclude that he is mad and that his problem is those strange bumps or tumors that have grown on either side of his nose ...

.....They want to remove his eyes surgically and when he refuses he is banished from their Kingdom under penalty of death ...

.....Ron Paul is like that hapless explorer ...he "sees" America's problems ...but he is living in the land of the blind .....COLOSSUS

Wow
People in this country are already complaining about how to give our children The Pill without telling their parents. We are already being chastised about how stupid our Children are to the rest of the World and now we want them to become ALCOHOLICS and DRUG ADDICTS boy that would surely make them smarter than anyone else.

DONT DRUG ME BRO, DONT DRUG ME

RON Paul needs to keep hanging out with the KKK and White Supremist of the World and leave our people/children alone.

also they have closed down the Brothels in AMSTERDAM, especially on CANAL STREET, WHY because AIDS has RAN RAMPED there now.

The Wisdom of Solomon
Why is it that the government says a woman has a right to choose what she does with her own body in the case of abortion, but prohibits that she chooses to sell her body for sex ? Does anyone die if the woman has sex ? Keep in mind that acts not deemed illegal by government can still transmit the same diseases.

It may be stated that prostitution is not a victimless crime because it affects others. Would it then be true that abortion does not affect others? Smoking affects others so government prohibits it in some places. Do my words affect you ? Do I anger you and cause your blood pressure to reach unhealthy levels with my words ? Should my words be restricted or prohibited ?

Frankly, if you want to reduce crime and minimize the power that drug lords have then legalize drugs and have the government subsidize and control the market. The prices could drop so low that the drug lords will scream in protest along with the rightous ones. Strange bedfellows !

If you think you understand where I stand on these issues, you probably don't. I am doing this to irritate others.

I don't have all the answers, and neither do you. A person that stands for nothing will sit for anything.

Tibby

Interstate commerce
Drugs could be regulated under the interstate commerce clause. Like all other pharms there could be taxes, dosage, packaging, warning labels, licensing and other such sundry regulations as we also see in the pharm industry.
Hey, they're trying like heck to do it with vitamins and supplements. If they have/get the power to regulate those, no doubt they can regulate psychotics. Which is different that to say ban outright.
Who says the FDA shouldn't have a part in assuring the safety of foods and drugs? It is an adjunct of interstate commerce. There's your nexus.

Para_dimz
Drugs could be regulated under the interstate commerce clause???

They are already regulated under the interstate commerce clause. Growing a pot plant in CA for your own use effects the price of the drug because you did not buy the pot on open market.

That was the reasoning in the medical marijuanna case. (Also the reasoning in the 30s when a farmer challanced the federal laws on crop allocations.)

Wishy-Washy Thinking by Paul
"Tragic Set of Circumstances?" What a cop-out.

I say without fear of contradiction that:

- At some point, a genetically human living organism becomes fully human. (At conception? At birth? Some time between? I'm not saying *when*; only that it happens *sometime*.)

- By "fully human" I mean: Endowed by the Creator with certain inalienable rights, amongst which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (Theists will use "the Creator" in the usual way; for non-Theists it is poetic language meaning that rights are intrinsic, not granted by government.)

- Once it has a right to life, protection of that right is a duty of government ("for this purpose governments are instituted among men...").

- Prior to it having that right, there's no such duty. And there's no *authority* for Federal interference: The Constitution delegates no power to the Federal Government to "prevent the prevention" of life, explicitly reserving those powers to "the states or the people" (Amendment X.)

Therefore "Tragic blah blah" is a cop-out. Any given abortion is either something the Feds have no authority to prevent, or something they're obligated to prevent. There is no middle road, no other option...unless you're willing to throw out the most cherished principles of American government.

You'd think a clear-headed Libertarian would know better.

Time to Wake Up
Check out this video from last night's Glenn Beck program. We have a serious economic crisis before us that we must address if we as a nation are to survive.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7985064935649691964 &q=glenn+beck+comptroller&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type= search&plindex=0

This is a far greater issue of national security than any outside terrorist threat.

If we continue down our present course, America and all that it stands for will come to an end. The only candidate who even comes close to addressing these issues is Ron Paul, plain and simple.

A woman's right to choose
She can't run her car with her in it into a tree; hard. They'll lock her up.
She can't walk down her street naked. They'll lock her up.
She can't burn her house down with herself inside.... unless she gets permission.. a permit.. or they'll lock her up.
As said above, she can't sell her body.
She can't do lots of things with her own body. They'll lock her up.
But she can kill another body just because it is in her "house"..
If you try to stop her... they'll lock you up.

Quiz time
SeekerOfTruth:

How many times since 1789 has the US used military force? And how many times has Congress declared war? Thus, was Vietnam, Korea, the Boxer Rebellion, the Filipino-American War, the Taiwan Strait Crisis of 1958, etc etc all illegal? Who should the US Congress declare war on in Iraq and Afghanistan since the US supports the governments in both countries? Should the US Congress declare war on OBL?

Government MUST Shrink
The libertarian message of Ron Paul is exactly what this country needs. We need the government to become much smaller than it is today to cut costs as well as return personal liberties to the people. Our government has become oppressive and corrupt, and it needs a thorough cleansing. Ron Paul has shown wisdom and prudence in the ideas he has expressed in his various speeches and press appearances. He shows a desire to see that no one is left out in the street if at all possible. He has shown respect and restraint when facing stiff opposition from political opponents and various media outlets.

In other words, Ron Paul has the CHARACTER to make tough decisions based on logic, reason and sound morals -- not by consulting lawyers or lobbyists. These changes will need to come, and I fear they will come at the hands of someone with far less restraint and moral fiber than Ron Paul.

The pro-aborts dehumanize
pre-born human beings just as the pro-slavery factions dehumanized African-American slaves.

Just as now it is legal to kill pre-born human beings, it was legal for a slave owner to kill his slave before the Civil War. Why? Because the pre-born human being is considered mere property just as the black man was considered property.

So, Mr. Paul by saying abortion is a states' rights issue is also acknowledging that slavery was a states' right issue. I find it difficult to support someone who considers pre-born human beings as property of the mother.

Vic
The medical MJ case in CA was decided wrongly. The reasoning was beyond contorted. I raise my own tomatoes which are traded in interstate commerce and that logic would never get a hearing in any court. Some things our government does are beyond the pale. This ruling is one of them.
I get a sense that we probably agree though it is not clear.
My use of the word drugs wasn't meant to convey the ones made by Lilly, Merck and the like. I meant the ones home made that travel in interstate commerce. In point of fact the government probably has a constitutional authority to totally ban imports of "controlled substances". As they do now.

eddie
You misunderstand Ron Paul's argument. First, he wants to define life as beginning at conception, but he realizes that there are a lot of complicated issues involved here. What do you do in the case of rape or incest? Do you allow abortion to occur when the woman's life is in danger?

Now granted, most of us pro-lifers believe that all abortions should be outlawed, but by leaving it to the states, we do not have to fight an all-or-nothing battle. The immediate result would be that most abortions would be banned... certainly those in the second and third trimesters as even the hosts on "The View" recognized late term abortions as murder. They didn't realize that they are still legal today.

Consider if we keep fighting this at the federal level. We will not be able to overturn Roe v. Wade until we get enough Supreme Court Justices, and even then, it is not guaranteed (justices have voted differently than we expected in the past). The best way is to turn it over to the states so at least we can stop abortions in most of the states. It is a step in the right direction.

Shells & Robert E Lee
"So, it seems Ron Paul supports gay marriage. You can't google and paste other RP propaganda on this one, he just said it to Stossel."

"Translation: 'I support legal abortion, homosexual marriage, and a general loosening of all moral restraints, but, because I want to be president, I must make it appear that I oppose these things.'"

Actually what he said was "They can't make me, personally, accept what they do, but gay couples can do what they want. I'd like to see all governments out of the marriage question. I don't think it's a state function; it's a religious function. "

IOW, he doesn't support it but it's none of government's business.

"Doesn't that make him a liberal?"

No, that makes him a limited government conservative who sees the only just purpose of the state as protecting individual liberty, leaving virtue to society.

"To be a conservative, some have said, is based on the morality of this country and not just fiscal responsibility."

Is not liberty among the moral absolutes this nation was founded on--equality, life, liberty, property, or the more expansive pursuit of happiness?

"I am all for freedom of choice and I'm all for responsibility, but somethings shouldn't be legal for the decent people who don't want to be submerged in the muck of society."

IOW, you're all for liberty except when you disagree with liberty? Is it wrong for government to promote liberal values but right for it to promote conservative values? Seems to make the moral absolute of liberty relativistic. You cannot coerce morality. Only a free society can be moral.

Vic
The case was Wickard v. Filburn (1942) and it was recently applied in Gonzales v. Raich (2005). Which is why I say the Commerce Clause has done more to allow for Federal tyranny than any other part of that document. And if the Constitution was ever thrown onto the dust bin of history, this part should be burned first.


Para_dimz
You're right, we do agree. I thought the ruling was a travesty and it ended the idea that Scalia was a "textualist".

He is just like some of the liberal justices, he believes in torturing an outcome out of the case. It's just in his case it's a conservative outcome instead of a liberal one.

Yes, they do
"Do Nam65 and Anne ever write anything intelligent?"

They actually write very intelligently when they're not discussing Ron Paul. I find it amazing that on most threads outside of the Ron Paul ones, I actually agree with what they say.

Crops
Actually para_dimz, the Gonzales case was decided correctly if you agree that Wickard v. Filburn (1942) was decided correctly. If Wickard is correct, so is Gonzales. In Wickard, a farmer grew wheat for his own use but the amount he grew exceeded the amount allowed under the Agricultural Adjustment Act. He argued that since the wheat was for his own use, the act didn't apply, but the court ruled that his growing wheat even for his own use affected the market as a whole and thus the government had the right to control what and how much was grown. So if the US government wanted to regulate the tomato market, they could--as ruled in Wickard--decide how much if at all tomatos you could grow, just as it does with Marijuna (or Opium poppies). Wickard and the earlier case of Jones & Laughlin (1937) basically ended any limits Congress had on regulating private activity using the Commerce Clause and in my view making FDR one of the greatest anti-freedom presidents ever. Why Americans worship him is frankly beyond me.




FDR
"Why Americans worship him is frankly beyond me."

Because big-government fanatics run our education system. Instead of being taught the truth about FDR, we're taught that he saved us from the Depression just in time to fight and win WW2.

Vic
But they have two choices Vic, say that either the court had been wrong for 63 years and Congress can't use the CC in that manner or rule in favor of Gonzales. If Wickard was correct, so is Gonzales since they are basically the same case, just different crops and the court is very wary of overturning long established rulings. They should have had the courage to do so and thus over turning Wickard, but courts just aren't in the habit of doing so.

Lonestarblues
As I said before, I have no interest in gay marriage. I am just calling it out as I see it, and what I see is RP supporters making rationalizations for his beliefs, like a desperate damage control unit.

So I will explain this again:

RP supporters went nuts about Rudy and Romney's record regarding gay liberties. Apparently, both of them at the time or even now might have felt, what did you say:

"No, that makes him a limited government conservative who sees the only just purpose of the state as protecting individual liberty, leaving virtue to society"

Perhaps that was their thinking to begin with? But no, every RP groupie went nuts, claiming RP is the only true conservative who will bring back this country to its true form, not RINO Rudy and Rino Romney!

Now here we are and RP basically made more of a bold statement on leaving the gays alone to their own lives because it's not the government's business to butt into private matters, including gay marriage.

Well, that's fine and all, and that's not what I'm chuckling about. I'm laughing watching you all backpeddle and make excuses for his bright new ideals on gay marriage, when RP supporters clearly stoned to death any republican candidates who were along the same lines of his opinions.

If RP never said this, and let's say Rudy did---you all would go frothingly nuts on him. Face it, most of you have. I have seen this with my own eyes.

That's what's funny. Continue on, I don't mind.

para_dimz
You're right. Except for the part about not being able to walk down the street naked. Anyone can in San Fran. (Folsom St. parade)

And Pelosi stated San Fran is a model for all of America to follow. If the dems grab the white house and they keep their majority in the Senate, there could very well be a whole nation of people walking around naked.

marijuana
Anyone who has had to live near illicit drug users (including marijuana) knows that drug use is far from being a victimless crime. Such blatant hedonism affects all in its vicinity. Drug crank their music up to the point where an entire apartment complex is sleep deprived. Their slovenliness harms the moral of a community. They drive dangerously, steal, are financially irresponsible and work poorly if at all. Medical marijuana laws are abused to the point of seriously endangering America's blue collar workforce. Intoxicated workers using heavy machinery bring great risk to their co-workers.

The obsession with state's rights is equally absurd. America does not start and stop at the state borders. If Paul believes that life begins at conception (an admittedly debatable subject), then abortion should be illegal in all 50 states.

Kudos to Stossel for allowing Paul to expose his ridiculous political philosophy.

FDR
I shouldn't say just Americans--there is even a road in Taipei named for him (luosifu lu).


Drugs..oh the humanity
So Maximilian, people who abuse the demon rum can also be described as those that crank their music up to the point where an entire apartment complex is sleep deprived. Their slovenliness harms the moral of a community. They drive dangerously, steal, are financially irresponsible and work poorly if at all, so should that be banned...wait wasn't that tried before?

The US doesn't stop and start at statelines, but there are many things that the Federal government has no business being involved in (and many things no government should be involved in) and the Federal government has been on an anti-freedom, path of tyranny since oh April 9, 1865 or so. If Paul wasn't such a nave in regards to foreign affairs, I could support him.


Annie Mation
Why did you say that some other poster was wrong when he asserted that the role of the federal government was to protect the citizens of the United States? My reading of the Constitution suggests that that is exactly the essential role of the federal government as intended by the founding fathers.

What is your reading of the Constitution on the purpose and mission of the federal government?

Shells
"As I said before, I have no interest in gay marriage. I am just calling it out as I see it..."

Didn't imply you did, my question was and is why you think government has any interest in it?

"...and what I see is RP supporters making rationalizations for his beliefs, like a desperate damage control unit."

Well, I didn't justify RP, I justified his position on liberty and limited constitutional government.

If Rudy and Romney said/say something anywhere close to that, I would/will support them as well. But they don't so far as I know--got any instances?

"But no, every RP groupie went nuts, claiming RP is the only true conservative who will bring back this country to its true form, not RINO Rudy and Rino Romney!"

Well, I don't like groupies either, blind as dingbats. But I do think RP the most fiscally conservative, the most bound to limited constitutional government. If you think there are others, we might debate that.

"Now here we are and RP basically made more of a bold statement on leaving the gays alone to their own lives because it's not the government's business to butt into private matters, including gay marriage."

Yes, so, what business is it of government's?

"Well, that's fine and all, and that's not what I'm chuckling about. I'm laughing watching you all backpeddle and make excuses for his bright new ideals on gay marriage, when RP supporters clearly stoned to death any republican candidates who were along the same lines of his opinions."

Laugh and lump away then, I'm not backpedaling or making excuses.

"That's what's funny. Continue on, I don't mind."

OK, so you believe government purpose is protecting liberty or promoting virtue?

Akagi
Your points in this thread are right on, kudos! 100% agreed on Ron Paul, who seems not to understand that all of history's great civilizations have borne and still bear an extra burden outside their national boundaries, and in fact need to bear this burden in order to survive.

Question for the anti-illicit drug crowd: how much has the government's "war" on drugs over the past half century reduced the consumption of same?

Honest answers only, please.

Role of government
The role of the Federal government is to protect its citizens from external and internal threats--armed invasion, violent death as in murder or having his or her property taken by force. It is not the role of the government to protect him from himself. So if he wishes to use drugs, drink gasoline, have sex with dubious persons, smoke like a factory in Harbin, drive without seatbelts, ride motorcycles without helmets, gamble on the internet...well in these cases the government has no duty or in my view the legitmate power to stop him from doing these things.

Why is Ron Paul on TH today?
What gives - two somewhat positive articles on Ron Paul in TH the day after he finishes 5th in New Hampshire. I don't get it. I thought TH hated this guys guts and wanted him to die a quiet death in a shrimp boat off Lake Jackson.

A Story
It is said that Winston Churchill once offered a woman a million pounds and the English crown if she would sleep with him and she responded "Yes."

He then offered her 1 pound to which she replied, "What kind of woman do you think I am?"

Churchill then replied, "We've already determined that. Now we're just haggling on the price."

After reading many posts above by "conservatives," it would appear they believe government can solve our personal woes. Their just haggling with the liberals over how much should government be involved.

And then Mr. Robert E. Lee comes up with this doozy: "Given human nature, granting human beings freedom of choice invariably means that many will choose the vicious over the virtuous."

So, who makes the choices for those too stupid, or better, those with the lack the will, to choose virtue over vice? Is it you, Mr. Lee? The biggest problem today is that the result of poor choices does not fall on the person making the poor choice, not that they are making the choice, because THAT is liberty.

Mr. Lee, you may want to take a little time and actually read the Constitution before you impose your version of government on everyone else.


Bravo, akagi!
For a guy who took the name of a torpedoed Japanese aircraft carrier, you make good points!

Hillary delenda est.

PS-Just teasing about the name, I know the Akagi was named for the castle in the Kwanto.

Lonestarblues
Please, go ahead and mince words and split hairs about liberties, the constitution, and the government with others. I've been there and done that with probably 30 of you guys so far. You wrap yourselves up into human pretzels pounding your logic liberties into anyone's skull, and really, it's grown tiresome. It's like watching a bad rerun.

You all sound the same, act the same, and are completely predictable on your responses. This is why I know better than to waste an afternoon once again, splitting those hairs and mincing those words.

You all demand for facts to be presented to you, and I have made those efforts before, like 7-9 times, until I learned that you don't read them and will google and paste your own.

I'm curious to see if my predictions are correct on how you intend to respond to this, because you all do, it can't be helped.

So, enlighten me with something different for a change.

Otherwise, just let me be and allow me my liberty of laughing at the 180 of His movement.

Akagi
A place name on the Kanto plain, a volcano named Mount Akagi is where the carrier got its name. It was also the name of an earlier ship, a Maya class gunboat that fought in the Battle of Yalu Jiang in the First Sino-Japanese War (1894) and out lived the newer ship--left the Japanese Navy in 1912 and served as a cargo ship until 1953. Both ships named for the same place.

Oh and Baron, I get teased about the name all the time. I think I should save my reply and just paste it everytime someone brings it up.

The ships' names and the place name of which they were named for is usually translated as red castle , but I read the kanji more correctly as red walled city. It was also the name of a Starship in Star Trek: the Next Generation (named for the aircraft carrier), the password for the security computer at Nakatomi Plaza in Die Hard. A common Japanese family name and the name of a popular magna series in Japan but in this case Akagi means red tree--the kanji is not the same.

Oh also the name of a Japanese food company as well (www.akagi.com).

Now you know.


Shells
"Please, go ahead and mince words and split hairs about liberties, the constitution, and the government with others. I've been there and done that..."

IOW, twice now, you've got no argument.

Akagi
Alcohol has been reasonably established as a safe drug when used in moderation (I, too, despise drunks). It’s also imbibed for epicurean pleasure as much as recreational purposes. The same cannot be said of marijuana. Even occasional and moderate use will lead to some form of brain damage. It also badly affects individual motivation as we have all witnessed at some point. Marijuana has become so potent in recent years that its status as a “light drug” is becoming questionable. Worse yet, the medical marijuana laws in the state of Oregon, for example, have sabotaged the working class to the frustration of even the labor unions. Those who abuse alcohol on the job cannot hide behind any medical excuse.

Before ascribing too comfortably to the state’s rights mantra, consider the DC gun ban. In that district, citizens have neither the right nor the ability to protect their families. That this freedom would be denied anywhere in our country is unthinkable. The Bill of Rights is meaningless if the states fail to abide by it. In response to your 1865 comment, secession is an unacceptable loophole for subverting the authority of the Bill of Rights.

Maximilian's comments
"Maximilian writes: Wednesday, January, 09, 2008 1:15 PM
marijuana
Anyone who has had to live near illicit drug users (including marijuana) knows that drug use is far from being a victimless crime. Such blatant hedonism affects all in its vicinity. Drug crank their music up to the point where an entire apartment complex is sleep deprived. Their slovenliness harms the moral of a community. They drive dangerously, steal, are financially irresponsible and work poorly if at all. Medical marijuana laws are abused to the point of seriously endangering America's blue collar workforce. Intoxicated workers using heavy machinery bring great risk to their co-workers."

What a ridiculous statement-- sweeping generalities that can be proven false quite easily, and loud music and slovenliness are not confined solely to the druggies. Ever seen a teenager's room? Been to a college frat house? Slovenliness isn't a side effect of drug use, its a side effect of LAZINESS.

Lets see-- who has more accidents-- drug users or alcohol users? Alcohol users, hands down.

Financially irresponsible? I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those filing bankruptcies are NOT habitual drug users.

Stealing? Again, most theft cases don't involve drug use.

Work conditions for those intoxicated? Again, 3 martini lunches or a few beers at lunch VASTLY outnumber those who might pop a pill, take a snort or toke a blunt. And some of the illicit drug use actually improves job performance-- at selected jobs, of course. Its not universal.

I'd say that workers using heavy machinery and not paying attention (like listening to their ipod or texting) pose a far greater risk to their coworkers-- but that activity is LEGAL.

FYI-- IF you qualify for medical marijuana, you're not ELIGIBLE to work, under ANY condition. Period.

Differences - Libertarians and Repub
As a Republican I agree with much of what Ron Paul is saying in this article with John Stossel, however I don't agree with him on legalizing heroin or gay marriage. Legalizing marijuana would be prudent, but an extremely hardcore drug like heroin is not something that people will simply use in moderation and not harm anyone. I understand he would argue that it should be up to the states to decide, and I would agree with that, but in the case of hardcore drugs like heroin I think the Fed Govt has a right to intervene if it so desires. Marijuana is a different story. It is a plant that grows in the ground and requires no special chemistry to create. It was legal for a couple centuries before the Feds got involved, and there were much less problems with it before it was outlawed. There has to be a line drawn between the two. Regarding gay marriage, I'm for gays being able to freely do what they want but not to invade into the sacred bond between men and women, which is the bedrock of humankind. I believe in civil unions for those people who want to "marry" each other and I've not heard a good argument as to why true marriage should be opened up to include same-sex unions.

.
"Alcohol has been reasonably established as a safe drug when used in moderation (I, too, despise drunks). It’s also imbibed for epicurean pleasure as much as recreational purposes. The same cannot be said of marijuana."

Marijuana was legal at one point in this country. During that time there was less need for police intervention at marijuana clubs then at bars.

.
"Anyone who has had to live near illicit drug users (including marijuana) knows that drug use is far from being a victimless crime. Such blatant hedonism affects all in its vicinity. Drug crank their music up to the point where an entire apartment complex is sleep deprived."

Cranking up music is what effects others, and that is the infringement on freedom, not drug use.

"Their slovenliness harms the moral of a community. They drive dangerously, steal, are financially irresponsible and work poorly if at all.

The main reason for the slovenliness of a drug user is that if they are addicted to something illegal, then the illegality of it makes it expensive on the black market. They are then unable to afford their addiction. If drugs were subject to a free market, many drug users would actually be functional (the same way there are any number of functional alcoholics).

"Medical marijuana laws are abused to the point of seriously endangering America's blue collar workforce. Intoxicated workers using heavy machinery bring great risk to their co-workers."

Agreed

"The obsession with state's rights is equally absurd. America does not start and stop at the state borders. If Paul believes that life begins at conception (an admittedly debatable subject), then abortion should be illegal in all 50 states. Kudos to Stossel for allowing Paul to expose his ridiculous political philosophy."

federalism = ridiculous?

politicalsanity
Have I really missed the point of the article, i.e. federalism? I'm all for it, and I agree that the states are in the best position to regulate vice (even though imperfectly) because state governments have better information about their subjects than the feds do. Regardless, the principles I described apply both at the federal and state levels.

Other important points are pertinent here as well: (1) There are two political parties, one of which is openly dedicated to undermining federalism at every turn in favor of federal dirigisme of every facet of American life, and they are the ones who will react to the costs of vice by throwing federal cash at them; (2) the national parties are cartels whose localized grass roots nourish the federal monolith with votes, in return for which the federal monolith pumps floods of cash to the localized grass roots; (3) combine (1) & (2), and you see why populous cesspools like New Jersey and California suck the federal coffers dry to finance the costs of their state governments' failures; (4) the feds must at least ban the import of drugs across the national boarder lest the states that ban drugs erect their own customs facilities against their neighboring states.

Not so?

politicalsanity
I have never been to a college frat house that did not house at least a few drug users. Therefore, I have no way of knowing if the drug-free frathouses exhibit similar signs of slovenliness.

Alcohol accidents outnumber drug-induced accidents because a larger percentage of the population drinks it.

Even if the majority of bankruptcies don't involve drug users, drug users experience higher rates of bankruptcies and/or evictions; they merely constitute a small (though not small enough) demographic.

Worker who drink during lunch are not protected by law and can be fired when the scent is detected. Medical marijuana users are protected from termination by Oregon state law (yes, they can still work). I can't say the same for the laws of other states. Almost any condition will qualify for a pot RX in Oregon as well.

Drug users are less likely to pay attention to anything at all. Of course, texting and ipod use while working is foolish and I doubt it's legal.

Drugs
And Maximilian, The 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to gun restrictions passed by the States as the 2nd Amendment has never been incorporated to apply to them. And until 1925, no part of the Bill of Rights applied to the States.

As for DC, it is a Federal enclave with limited home rule. If Congress wished, it could simply make the DC law moot by striking it down and thus making Supreme Court review in Parker unnecessary.

I favor secession. If a state enters the Union of its own free will, it should be free to leave it as well.

As for Marijuna or anything else. I am sure smoking does terrible things to you too--cancer, COPD, strokes, heart attacks, etc. And the government should have no more power to ban smoking than it does to ban marijuna or cocaine for that matter.






Parties
"There are two political parties, one of which is openly dedicated to undermining federalism at every turn in favor of federal dirigisme of every facet of American life..."

One? Only one. The GOP is just as bad as the Dems at Federalizing everything. George Bush pushed NCLB the Federal takeover of the State's education system, his father signed the AWDA, it was this administration that lead to Gonzales v. Raicht and I could go on and on and the attacks on Federalism cover both Democratic and GOP administrations back as far as you wish to go. The two parties simply attack freedom from different flanks.

Moonkeeper
The marijuana of the 1930's was reportedly extremely mild, almost like strong tobacco. In the 60's it was stronger. Nowadays, one "hit" will render a user very stoned. This drug simply doesn't deserve its reputation for harmlessness.

I used to believe that subjecting drugs to the freemarket would Darwinistically create a responsible society. Europe's experience has changed my mind. Whether drugs are affordable or not, people who use them tend to make bad decisions. As long as demagogue politicians continue to exist, as they always will, the plight of the destitue will serve as a reason to expand the government's power through taxation and entitlements. Recent history reveals that legalizing drugs actually leads to a net loss in liberty.

Pipe dreams
"It is a plant that grows in the ground and requires no special chemistry to create."

So are opium poppies. If I plant opium poppies in my yard and simply use them as they have been for centuries by smoking the product in a pipe--it requires no special chemistry to create either--should that be legal too?

We can agree that there can be no moderation in the use of heroin, what we say is that the war on drugs is worse, far worse than the harmful effects of the drug itself. What people seem to fail to grasp--we don't say taking drugs os good, we say that the methods used to combat drugs is worse and has done little to stop drug use in any event.

Akagi
If the Bill of Rights does not apply to the states, then what good is it?

Once your in the Union, you're in. To simply leave as a means of depriving certain citizens of their freedom is an underhanded method of negating the authority of Bill of Rights. People who do not support America's rights should simply move to other countries that have no such rights. I assert this, by the way, in reference to the confederates not necessarily to you or Dr. Paul.

Still arguing the wrong premise
All of you people arguing in support of drug laws are arguing the wrong premise. The argument was against FEDERAL drug laws for which there is no authority in the Constitution.

Those of you who say there is no State authority and that federal law should control everything should find a new country to live in because you certainly don’t support the Constitution which is supposed to be the Supreme law of the land.

And BTW, I am no Ron Paul supporter.

SO what?
"This drug simply doesn't deserve its reputation for harmlessness."

You seem to fail to grasp something. We aren't saying Marijuana use is good or safe, we are saying the criminalization of drugs and the war on drugs has done more harm that the effects of the drugs would have and that the war has been a total failure (not that the US has been good at winning wars of late of any color in any event) and that it has had a minimal effect on drug use.

If I wanted to, how long do you think it'd take me to go and buy a qrt of pot right now? 10 minutes if that? What has the cost been of this stupid war? How many people have died, how many people thrown into the American gulags known as its prison system? How many cops have become dirty, how much liberty has been eroded? Sorry, Max, your price for your silly little war is way too steep for me.


Re:No federal drug laws means more drugs
I have read several posts on here that talk about Paul's plicies meaning more drug use, prostitution everywhere, and that he is talking out of both sides of his mouth when he says he is personally against those things but would repeal federal laws regulating them.

OK I am breaking out the crayons to explain this to you. He is talking about FEDERAL Laws only. All states have laws on their books regulating drug use. All hard drugs would still be illegal everywhere and marijuana would still be illegal most places. Alaska had a law that said you could smoke it in your house if no children were present that was overturned by the feds and California allowed for medical marijuana use. Prostitution is actually regulated by state laws and the only one that has legalized it is Nevada.

So Paul's policy would have the earth shattering effect of allowing cancer patients and backwoods Alaskans smoke pot and no noticeable effect on prostitution. Oh the humanity!

Paul's policies are unclear about drugs coming into this country but I can definitely see a constitutional federal effort to keep drugs out. Hey maybe some of those troops guarding borders in 130 countries might be better served guarding our borders and ensuring things like drugs and terrorists aren't just walking freely into our country. Just a thought.

Bill of Rights
The Bill of Rights was meant to apply to the Federal government--not the states. You know Congress shall make no law and that was the case for the majority of the time that the US has existed from Barron v. Baltimore in 1833 until Gitlow v. New York in 1925. Before the 14th Amendment passage in 1868 and Gitlow in 1925, you would have to seek relief granted by your state constitution.

What freedom is say the people of Georgia depriving you or other non-Georgians by leaving the union if they have come to the conclusion that the union is rotten to the core and no longer wish to be a part of it?


Rights
A few more things...what do you mean by this Max?

"People who do not support America's rights should simply move to other countries that have no such rights.

America has no rights. Using American political theory, the people have rights and it grants powers to the government by their consent and are you so dense to assume that America is unique in people having rights...that only in America people have the freedom of religion, speech, press, etc? You must not get out much then.

Or are you saying, if we oppose the "rights" of your wonderful imperial federal government that we should move to say the DPRK where its people do in fact not have rights enjoyed by people in the US.


Akagi
Pay closer attention to the words. I wrote: "There are two political parties, one of which is openly dedicated to undermining federalism at every turn in favor of federal dirigisme of every facet of American life..."

I chose to write "openly dedicated" because although the GOP has also done much to undermine federalism, doing so is not an explicit and permanent plank in its political platform, although many of its permanent planks are riddled with anti-federalism knots and rots. Like you, I'm not a big fan of the GOP because it's sold the soul Reagan gave it for power and cash prizes at the cost of our liberty. And now it seems that a significant cadré of the conservative intelligentsia/apparatchiki have fallen in love with soft paternalism, the latest fad of European provenance that amounts to nothing less than socialism-lite.

I fear that bad times are ahead for Libertarians, my friend.

Human brain
If you take into account the way the human brain works - it deletes and distorts - then relying too strictly on any particular ideology or even a set of principles, no matter how admirable in theory, will result in corruption and failure. There's something about human nature that makes people adopt a worthy cause and destroy it by going to extremes.

The most dangerous people are the idealists who attempt to force a simplistic ideology on an unruly reality, crushing anyone who tries to escape their control.

Thanks for all the contrary points presented in this discussion on RP - some are really thought provoking. Helps me to rebalance my point of view.

One more thing
"To simply leave as a means of depriving certain citizens of their freedom is an underhanded method of negating the authority of Bill of Rights."

If you are talking about the slaves, in 1860-1861, they were not citizens, they were not covered by the Bill of Rights but were property not unlike cattle. None of the amendments in the BOR--the 1st, 4th, 5th, 8th, etc didn't apply to the states. The states could have used impalement as a form of execution if it wanted to and the Federal government would have been powerless to stop it.


Max
"I used to believe that subjecting drugs to the freemarket would Darwinistically create a responsible society. Europe's experience has changed my mind."

I can understand that. The difference I is that its Europe. They were far more socialist already, which meant far less personal responsibility to begin with.

As a side note, while I believe in the legalization of drugs, it isn't exactly on the top of my list of priorities. If a candidate was running for office, and the only disagreement I had with them was the war on drugs, they would have my vote.

Virtue
Could someone please enlighten me and tell me in what way the government is not in the business of making people more virtuous when it enforces its laws against fraud, stealing, violent attacks, and murder in an attempt to make us more honorable and less dangerous in our dealings with each other?

Akagi
Perhaps you should go into journalism with your aptitude for twisting words. Where in my posts did I suggest that the US is the only country with rights? Employing your own ad hominem vocabulary, are you so dense as to think that the rest of the world is as free as America.

Allow me to illustrate my point in easily comprehended examples. If Massachusetts dislikes the second amendment, they have no right to secede. The discontented residents won't have to go to the DPRK. They can merely go to practically any other country in the world and be "free" of such liberty.

Georgia seceding from the Union would have affected the rights of millions of black Americans. They did not have the opportunity to "vote with their feet". It is sickening to witness "libertarians" sanctioning slavery.

The Bill of Rights is not worth the paper on which it's printed if the states can so easily overide American liberty.

The war on drugs is worth every penny of its cost. Observe western Europe and tell me otherwise.

When Ron Paul speaks of prostitution as a choice he exhibits shocking naivete. Does he not realize how many prostitutes are forced into sex slavery by pimps? Do he simply not care?




All but Abortion
It seems I agree with almost all of the things Ron Paul says here, except for his views about states getting to choose on the abortion issue. We have to protect the children who are not able to protect themselves, and this includes their right to life even while in the womb.

It's not about virtue
Laisve:

There are laws against murder, fraud, rape, robbery, etc because the criminal is depriving that person of life, liberty or property. Smoking pot or opium in my own home doesn't deprive you of anything. Any law passed that makes an act a criminal act and that act doesn't deprive someone of his life, liberty or property by force or fraud, is in my view illegitimate and if I was sitting on a jury I'd never vote to convict unless the law the person was charged with met this standard.

As for disclosure, my drug of choice are cigars and sake.


Renee
I agree-

All 50 states should unite against abortion. As our old pal Ronald Reagan once said:

"I have noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."

Still, there is no reason that a person from Iowa cannot try to convince people in New Hampshire that abortion is immoral. For that matter, why only the U.S.A? Can't we impose morality of this sort on Canada even though it is unconstitutional? We would break laws to do so but who cares? Our congress breaks laws all the time by no obeying the Constitution. Then more unborn children could be saved.




Paul may be goofy, but...
I think Paul has something, as far as have the "Feds" stay out of state business, but he leaves a big question in my mind.

What if one or more states chooses to leagalize any of a number of bad personal choices. (Pot, hard drugs, prostitution, etc).? Who pays for the problems caused by bad choices? Not my insurance company, I hope! My rates are high enough. We could solve the problem quite easily. When costs of any kind are incurred by anyone who makes one of these bad choices, there is a law in place that lets the insurance company of the hook.

Get drunk or high and have an accident? You pay all damages. Your insurance company is only liable for people other than yourself, and only after you completely run out of assets. If the insurance company has to pay more out than your total net worth, they can take 50% of your future paychecks until they get even - including interest. You will not be able to go bankrupt.

Get an STD from a hooker - see above.

Smoke and get lung cancer - see above.

Drink and need a liver transplant - see above.

Go out for a night on the town and come home pregnant - see above.

Drive your car eighty miles an hour and pile into a pole or another car - see above.

Live in a flood zone - see above.

It's perfectly okay for people to make bad choices, but they should be made to understand that they will be the only ones to get a bill.

I'm fed up with footing a piece of the "moron" bill, even though only indirectly, in order to bail out stupid people.

If you get involved in any of the above bad choices, you need to understand one thing - you're an idiot.



KHOMAR

.....When Roe was ruled on it was noted that when life began had never been decided by law ...

.....Many Scientists can offer proof that life begins at conception so if a Bill was introduced in Congress to codify that fact into law then abortion would become murder at the Federal level and if challenged in court ...as PP and the ACLU would certainly do ...then it would have to go to the Supreme Court again for a new ruling that could nullify Roe ...

...Maybe the pro-choice crowd had better settle for Roe being overturned and for abortion being returned to the States .....COLOSSUS

Role of Government
"It is not the role of the government to protect him from himself. So if he wishes to use drugs, drink gasoline, have sex with dubious persons, smoke like a factory in Harbin, drive without seatbelts, ride motorcycles without helmets, gamble on the internet...well in these cases the government has no duty or in my view the legitmate power to stop him from doing these things."

I agree 100% but would just add: Nor is it the role of the government to bail him out when his decisions cause harm to himself.

Laisve: Virtue
"Could someone please enlighten me and tell me in what way the government is not in the business of making people more virtuous when it enforces its laws against fraud, stealing, violent attacks, and murder in an attempt to make us more honorable and less dangerous in our dealings with each other?"

Good question. What prevents you from defrauding, stealing from, assaulting and murdering your fellow man? If it's fear of punishment at law, then you're not a virtuous man, and it follows that the law has not made you virtuous. If it's because you believe that such deeds are wrong per se, then your beliefs show you to be a virtuous man who would remain virtuous regardless of the law, and it follows that the law has not made you virtuous.

From the above it follows that the laws' foundation are the prevailing beliefs of right and wrong, virtue and vice, the habitual practice of which render men good or vile. Long ago a wise man noted that the laws make the king, not the king the laws. Savvy?

triple double overdose

Let drug use fly, but make it a strong law that no medical facility or person who receives even one penny from government or insurance, can not treat the druggie.

Make the only treatment for a drug problem to be a triple double overdose of whatever it was, immediately.

2nd Amendment
Mass (as it stands now) is free to enact any gun laws it wishes so as the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to state laws.

Yes, girls are forced into sex slavery where it is illegal. Nye County, Nevada where it is legal don't have this problem. Where the brothels are legal, inspected, and permitted by the state.

"The war on drugs is worth every penny of its cost."

Tell that to the family of 92-year-old Kathryn Johnston who was murdered by a bunch of dirty drug cops. Tell that to the thousands in the American gulags who are rotting there for non-violent drug offenses, tell that to those that have lost of privacy and personal freedom, tell that to those who are victims of dirty cops and dirty judges who have been corrupted by the WOD, tell that to the victims of crime caused by the WOD, to the victims of crime because criminals were released early to make room for non-violent drug offenders and the list goes on. Easy for you to say it is worth every penny. Yes, if you are interested in the destruction of freedom, it has been worth every penny just like the War on Terror.

"Georgia seceding from the Union would have affected the rights of millions of black Americans."

How so? Slavery was legal in Georgia on January 19, 1861 and Lincoln had no plans to stop slavery in Georgia or any other state where it then existed. And by the way, in 1860, there were just over 400,000 slaves in Georgia--there were only some 4 million in the entire South. Where do you get this "millions" from?

"The Bill of Rights is not worth the paper on which it's printed if the states can so easily overide American liberty."

The BOR wasn't meant to apply to the states and the 2nd doesn't apply to them now.


You know...
...The very first commentor had it right. Individual freedom does require individual responsibility. Put another way, sadly, the only way we'll ever be able to live up to our Constitution is for everyone of voting age to grow up instead of remaining stuck on stupid. I don't see that happening within my lifetime. Not in this country, and definitely not in the world as a whole.

But we can always make a start. Check out my blog for more on how to do that.

Akagi
I don't understand what value you ascribe to the Bill of Rights if you believe that the states have absolute authority to override it.

How amusing that with all of your limited government rhetoric you blatantly call for the inevitable creation of a new department designated towards overseeing the prostitution industry. Nice!

Good job criminalizing our police and victimizing the drug-addicted trash that's ruining our country. Before you start throwing around your emotional terms like "American gulag" you had better do a little research on the conditions of the Soviet gulags. Read Anne Applebaum's book and stop dishonoring the memories of these people by your exaggerations of the American criminal justice system. People who use illicit drugs should go to jail. The gulag victims were innocent.

If you think the war on drugs is undermining liberty, then why hasn't legalizing them helped make Europe a freer place? It's worse than ever!

I love these "historians" who claim that the Civil war was fought as a means of preventing secession rather than ending slavery. Why did the Confederacy want to succeed?!!! Pressure from abolitionist legislators drove the slaveholders to attempt secession. To bad we did not have more libertarians around back then to preserve, protect and defend the states right to enslave people based on the color of their skin.

Keep up the good work spreading Paul's message. Americans deserve to know his agenda in its entirety.


Maximilian
Maximilian writes:
"Alcohol has been reasonably established as a safe drug when used in moderation (I, too, despise drunks). It’s also imbibed for epicurean pleasure as much as recreational purposes. The same cannot be said of marijuana. Even occasional and moderate use will lead to some form of brain damage. It also badly affects individual motivation as we have all witnessed at some point."


I am a Medical Marijuana user.
(Someday it might be legal here)

I take quite an exception to your portrayal of marijuana users.

Marijuana is the only controlled substance in US law that, can NOT kill you.
You can NOT Overdose on marijuana, (You'll fall asleep first)
it is Not physically addicting.

If I lived by your laws my only chance at a normal life would mean I had to take
Really Dangerous drugs like Vicodin, and Oxycontin. (ever see a vicodin zombie?)
If I was forced on those I would be just another drugged out zombie living on the govt tit.

Instead, I puff my pipe a couple times a day, and run a
successful business and Pay taxes.

I agree that Dangerous drugs like heroin, and cocaine need to be regulated.
But for our government to declare war on a Weed that grows wild on every continent in the world is just plain silly. They could use the billions of dollars wasted on the war on marijuana, to go after Meth labs where the Real danger is.

Because of thinking like yours, the most dangerous part of using marijuana is the chance of prison time.

Before you call me a whacked out leftist hippy, check out some of my previous posts all over TH to see just how conservative I am. I just want to live a "normal" life, and after 8 years of trying every pain med there is, the only thing my doctor found that works is an illegal substance.

Would you take away a heart patient's nitro pills?

Put that in your pipe and puff on it a while :op




That said,
I'm still NOT voting for Ron Paul.

Rights
First of all, everyone on earth has inalienable rights given them by God (or the Laws of Nature). Governments cannot give or take away rights, they can only protect or violate them. This is a very important distinction to make, because if rights are not inherent and inalienable, it opens the door for the government to start creating new rights, such as the 1960 Democratic Platform's new Economic Rights (See following post).

a Paul presidency
Here’s the likely outcome of a Ron Paul presidency. Congressional Democrats block all of his radical reforms except Iraq withdrawal and legalization of all illicit drugs. Within weeks, drug abuse spikes in all states that adopt the legalization policy leading to increased property crime, violent crime, and flooding the hospitals beyond capacity. The public cannot stomach the thought of allowing the users to suffer their dire consequences. Congress insists on socializing medicine to handle this crisis. They demand higher taxes as “the cost of freedom”. Paul vetoes the tax increases only to be overturned by Congress. Spending on police exceeds the cost of the Iraq war and gives the public impression of a “police state”. With public opinion turned against Paul and his “free market ideals”, his presidency is marginalized. Socialism gains widespread acceptance and Congressmen act according to their constituents. Congress takes free reign against a powerless president. Americans must toil with little reward in order to pay for the medical and judicial care of drug users.

Then the terrorist attacks begin…

Jackpine
It’s refreshing to hear from a medical marijuana user who actually uses the drug for a bona fide treatment. I was beginning to be skeptical of any of its purported benefits. You must realize how poorly regulated medical marijuana is in some states, especially Oregon. I doubt that your regimen consists of the copious quantities that some people are using to cope with “nervousness”. If this drug, indeed, offers a medical use, then it should be produced synthetically by drug companies that know what they are doing and prescribed in quantities no larger than necessary. The “legalize pot” crowd is not doing you any favors by abusing a well-intentioned law.

Laisve
"Could someone please enlighten me and tell me in what way the government is not in the business of making people more virtuous when it enforces its laws against fraud, stealing, violent attacks, and murder in an attempt to make us more honorable and less dangerous in our dealings with each other?"

RCB gave one answer, let me give another.

The crimes you list are all crimes against an individual's natural rights to life, liberty and property, or more expansively, pursuit of happiness. "...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men...." These rights are the moral foundation of the nation, so it could be argue they are virtues--universal, absolute morals or virtues.

The problem, however, with what we call virtues, or values, is they are personal and not universal, relativistic not absolute. Now you and I and RCB might well agree on what we consider "the prevailing beliefs of right and wrong, virtue and vice, the habitual practice of which render men good or vile." But others may disagree. We might agree on abortion, others obviously don't. So do we leave that to whoever wins an election and has temporary power? Do we want government defining, legislating, executing and adjudicating life? Or should that be left to the people to freely decide?

You earlier pointed out that "If you take into account the way the human brain works - it deletes and distorts - then relying too strictly on any particular ideology or even a set of principles, no matter how admirable in theory, will result in corruption and failure." I'm not sure you intended it but to me that is a strong argument against trusting government to make our moral choices. For what is government but men who are human and flawed and corrupt?

Thus I believe a just government will protect the rights of its people and leave them free people to make those moral and virtuous choices.

Actually, Max is pretty much right
on target!

The ONLY question is, how long would it take for the terrorist INVASION to begin?

Only a limited paulist or leftist would actually think that the radical islamics don’t have every intention of taking over the USA.

Remember, “Death to America?” and the phrase, “Wipe America off the face of the earth?”

Well, here’s a little tid-bit for you. Our troops in the ME have their “name tapes” on Velcro so they can be removed if they’re near a Muslim whom they cannot determine is “friendly.”

Why, you might ask??? Well, it’s to minimize the possibility of any al Qaeda contacting his al Qaeda buddies already here in the States, and potentially doing harm to the soldier’s family or the soldier when he/she returns.

Doesn’t sound much like if we “leave the ME” the al Qaeda will be happy campers!




I agree Anne
The paul supporters constantly harp about his wonderful domestic policies, but most totally ignore the fact that he's inviting disaster with his foreign policy. If you can call pulling in all our troops and making nicey nice with terrorists a foreign policy.

Let's take Max's Paul presidency outside the borders.

We pull our troops from Europe, and hurt the local econmies of dozens of european cities. and leave europe open for a revitalized Putin empire.

We pull our troops from Afghanistan, and within weeks the struggling afghan govt. is overrun by taliban/AQ, plunging that emerging nation back into the darkness. Once again women will be beheaded for the crime of getting an education.

We pull our troops out of South Korea.
Within days, Kim Jung Il marches his million man army on Seoul, millions die in a resumption of the 50 year old korean war, this time with the added spice of nukes.

Of course we pull our troops from the evil Iraq war.
Within weeks Iran announces it really has been building bombs all along. but since the weak americans have hidden behind their borders, we don't have to hide it anymore.
The saudis, jordanians, egyptians, kuwaitis, and everyone with enough cash to buy fissile material starts building their own bombs to protect themselves from the Iranian menace.

within 6 months the vast oilfields are burning out of control, but because of huge radioactive fallout from the recent "Pan Arab War" makes putting the fires out impossible.


But hey, we don't wanna get involved.


And the paulites wonder why i say NO.







Rights (continued)
The Democratic Party platform of 1960 summarizes the switch boldly and explicitly. It declares that a Democratic Administration "will reaffirm the economic bill of rights which Franklin Roosevelt wrote into our national conscience sixteen years ago." Bear clearly in mind the meaning of the concept of "rights" when you read the list which that platform offers:

"1. The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation.

"2. The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation.

"3. The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living.

"4. The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home and abroad.

"5. The right of every family to a decent home.

"6. The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health.

"7. The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accidents and unemployment.

"8. The right to a good education."

As Ayn Rand stated, to each of these, the question should be asked, "At who's expense?" Nobody can have the right to enslave another, therefore these so-called 'rights' can be no such thing.

What if we leave
I don't mean just withdraw our troops but our foreign aid to ALL parties in the middle east as well. As irrational as these jihadists are I find it impossible to believe that they would keep looking us up from 6 thousand miles away and getting so angry because of our "freedom" that they would form groups and train for years just to commit acts of suicide to kill some of us. If all we were doing was buying their oil and trading with them like all the other nations are what is their motivation for attacking us?

It would't be Israel, Lebanon, bases in Saudi Arabia or anything else. Just some jealosy about our prosperity but that would not be enough to recruit people to kill themselves over.

What if we win in Iraq
I don't mean if we win in some Utopian way where we and the Iraqis are singing and dancing like the Ewoks in Star Wars but what if we achieve the expectations of a semblance of a Democracy and an Iraqi police force and army capable of defending Iraq and then we leave.

What we would have accomplished is invading a sovereign nation that never threatened us, put to death the ruler and his sons, killed 600,000 Iraqis, spent a Trillion dollars which we borrowed heavily from the Chinese to fund(giving them strategic economic leverage over us), and set up a Shia dominated democracy that already has closer ties with Iran than it does to us.

Remember how we were excited about the Palestinians getting democracy until they voted in Hammas. What if an anti-american demogogue like Al-Sadr gets elected(he is the most popular political figure in Iraq)? Will we be so happy about sacrificing our lives and a trillion dollars to bring them the gift of freedom to hate us in their own way.


LGBT marriage will erode first amendment
The problem with LGBT people nowadays is that they want to force their mental illness on the children of the rest of us.

If same-sex relationships become recognized as marriages, the public schools will be required to teach children (even against the wishes of their parents) that homosexuality is healthy, normal and desirable.

Further, if same-sex marriage becomes law, it further solidifies the claim that criticism of sodomy is a hate-crime. Consequently, anyone who teaches his children that same-sex attraction is a mental illness or that sodomy is immmoral or sinful will be charged with a hate crime and will likely lose custody of his children (who will become wards of the state that in turn will presumably put them in the homes of same-sex couples).

So, Ron Paul, even if I want to just leave LGBT folks alone, they won't leave me and my children and the rest of my posterity alone. They are coming for the hearts and minds of my children in the public schools. They aren't content with having their own liberty; they want to deprive me of mine. Ron Paul, do you recognize my right to teach my children as well as you recognize LGBT folks' rights?

Having said all that, I wish to add that I agree with much of what Ron Paul says about American sovereignty, monetary policy, second amendment rights, states rights, and so on.

Rama
"What if we win in Iraq
What we would have accomplished is invading a sovereign nation that never threatened us, put to death the ruler and his sons, killed 600,000 Iraqis, spent a Trillion dollars which we borrowed heavily from the Chinese to fund(giving them strategic economic leverage over us), and set up a Shia dominated democracy that already has closer ties with Iran than it does to us"



First of all, if some idiot doesn't muck it up and pull out too soon, it's not a matter of IF, only When we win. But that's neither here nor there.

What we will have accomplished is freeing 50 million people from a life of fear and tyrrany, under a dictator that fed his citizens into wood chippers for amusement. We will have accomplished helping a fledgeling democracy in an area desperately in need of it.

What we will have accomplished is showing the people of the middle east that their dictators and tyrants have been wrong all along. the US isn't the Great Satan, but a force for positive change. The Iraqis are finally beginning to realize this now, hence their "Awakening".

I'd say we'll accomplish a lot.

If we're allowed to finish the job that is.


More on Virtue
Thanks Akagi and RCB: you make excellent points.

Bear with me; I'm just a neophyte in this. Isn't virtue developed in most people, particularly when they are children, through fear of consequences? And whatever motives started you out acquiring good habits, once they have become a part of you, can't they be considered virtues? Your high standards, RCB, for who can be considered virtuous will probably leave out 98% of the world's population, who, even when they know something is wrong, go ahead and do it if they can see an immediate gain and think they can get away with it.

In my previous comments, I may have been thinking of Aristotle, who said we get virtues by practising them and that legislators make citizens good by encouraging them to form good habits.

I'm just expanding on your concepts, not opposing them.

Akagi - whatever a person does in the privacy of his home is no one's business if no coercion is involved, but what if he does it in a public place, wanders around hallucinating, threatening, littering the park (where children play) with his contaminated drug paraphernalia, grabbing women as they pass by, breaking into people's homes to bankroll their private pleasures... These public acts infringe upon the liberty and safety of others in the community.

I believe in as few laws as possible, to get the government out of our lives, and to safeguard liberty, but I don't want the government replaced by others equally oppressive. Savvy?

I admit: Sometimes I don't know where to draw the line regarding laws. As few laws as possible, but then no removing of the natural consequences of vice, consequences being nature's teaching technique.

Political activism is dead...
and in it's wake is an establishment that lacks both integrity and honesty. Moral reprobates flourish in our nations capitol while good decent men and women get tarnished and ridiculed.

Greed and insatiable ambition has caused a corrupt stranglehold on American politics.

Care to see for yourself where greed has gotten us?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7985064935649691964 &q=glenn+beck+comptroller&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type= search&plindex=0

Part 2
In days past, all americans studied American history and understood constitutional government. The average citizen knew what real money is--and is not.

The once mighty Republican party and it's self described "conservative" base has given in to their own selfish interest's. They are a bunch of internationalists who are consumed with greed and power. They are slaves to Big Business and special interest groups. They are petty, shallow hirelings who care nothing for constitutional government, the principles of liberty, or the American people.

The Democrats have given in to it's far left ideology that marches us toward the totalitarian state.

Will America save itself from a absolute threat, that being our certain financial disaster?

I think not.

How many in the good ol' US of A understand that we are bankrupt as a ntion and all your stocks, bonds and private investments mean nothing. What good is making the world in our image if we have left a legacy of debt to the next generation. We will all be begging for governments handouts when we reach retirement age.

Among the Democrat and Republican contenders--we are offered only more of the same. The same Nanny State, the same unconstitutional laws and regulations, the same advances toward global government, the same attacks against individual liberties, the same arrogance, the same hypocrisy, the same social programs, the same back-breaking taxes, the same jack-booted federal police tactics, the same IRS, the same lobbyists, and the same corrupt Washington politics.

Rama
Exactly so...the trillion bucks is plenty enough reason to quit this madness, not to mention that it is just plain wrong to go all over the world telling people how to live and sending in troops to force them to do so.

Ron Paul advocates removing ALL American soldiers from ALL foreign countries, including Korea, Japan, Germany, etc. unless authorized by a declaration of war in Congress.

They call Dr. Paul a kook, but think it is perfectly normal to have troops all over the world, have a federal law for EVERYTHING, and print money to pay for it. Who are the kooks?

Anne
It is not easy to find recruits for imperialist wars. I would have thought you would have learned that at least from Iraq. To get recruits to go after countries that occupy or install puppet governments in traditionally Islamic land is pretty easy, it is easy for power hungry hustlers like Bin Laden to gain recruits when the message sells itself, look at the 1994 Conservative Revolution here and how easily it was highjacked. Look at how easy it was to radicalize the wackjobs we did in Afghanistan against the Soviets with a little help from our "friends". Even if Bin Laden wasn't much of a fighter, as an ambitious aspiring leader I am sure he learned a thing or two on how to manipulate a group of people.


Anne (cont.)
But once it goes to imperialist wars like you assert the dynamic changes. They cannot win imperialist wars with defensive tactics and they have no chance if they cannot fight offensively, which they can't. Frankly the second imperialist Islamic forces went on the offensive they would get mowed down just like every other war they ever fought since the dawn of electricity and on top of that they would be discredited by moderates who see no ROI in his strategy. You know, the moderates, the people who hate our guts but want to kill themselves over it now let alone in an imperialist manner. They cannot engage in empire building, which is what you assert is their intentions, because that very act exposes them to their biggest weakness. What you are insinuating is impossible. The promise of a global caliphate is about as possible as the electorate actually electing a Republican that will shrink the size of government and combat illegal immigration. The "viable" candidates are just selling you snake oil like Bin Laden is to his recruits and when they are exposed to enough people their numbers shrink rapidly. But as long as the message sells itself we will be less secure and less free and it is all rather predictable. The Talking Points are different versions of the propaganda of earlier times.

Anne (revised)
the people who hate our guts but DON"T want to

If we when
Jackpine Savage writes:
"What we will have accomplished is freeing 50 million people from a life of fear and tyrrany, under a dictator that fed his citizens into wood chippers for amusement. We will have accomplished helping a fledgeling democracy in an area desperately in need of it."

1- its 25 million people.
2- I don't see among the sins of Saddam Hussein that he threatened us or attacked us(usually a minimum justification for justly invading another country)
3-This fledgeling democracy elected Al-Sadr with the most votes of anyone(he hates and rails against America
4-We have given the Chinese unnecessary economic leverage over us(ask any economist what happens if the Chinese decide to sell our trillion dollars in debt or their trillion dollars from trade surpuses on the world market-hint our dollar would be worth about half of what it is now very soon)
5-If we are so worried about ending brutally oppressive regimes why are we not in the Sudan where what is going on makes Saddam look like a boy scout.

Jackpine Savage
Great now those are our only justifications, some of which are faulty, for being the world's policeman and for the hundreds of thousands in collateral damage, along with the many more that are displaced, and we think Bin Laden and other hustlers will recruit less? Are you kidding me? That is what in your description of what we accomplished, Bin Laden's recruiting figures increased by record numbers. What next, attack or invade a Shiite nation and help the radicals sort out their differences on that front, because if we attack Iran and broaden the conflict so distinctly, we will most definitely unite them. This is at odds with Sun Tzu's belief that you should divide your threats and conquer that way. I happen to agree very much with his writings on the topic. They make more sense than you.

And another thing about Isolationism
People want to call Dr. Paul an isolationist because he wants to bring troops home from everywhere. By this this logic isn't every other country isolationist. The entire rest of the world manages to conduct trade and diplomacy without stationing troops around the world. We have a strong navy to protect our trade routes. Stationing troops in foreign countries should have died in the cold war. Europe which has almost twice our population has been able to have socialism on the cheap because of the defense spending of our taxpayers. They need to provide for their own defense. Maybe if we had given them a 10 year window to do this after 1945 they would not have become such naive wussies about the dangers of the world. Their socialist models might have collapsed under the strain, forcing them to move to a caplitalist model. Again, unforseen consequences.

Lev Strauss
Well most of the carping I hear about our foreign policy is about how much the world hates us for being their policeman.

If you think they hate us now, wait till we stop being the policeman.

Like it or not we were saddled with the job when we became the only remaining superpower. The other countries out there are able to carry on trade in relative peace because we're standing patrol.

Most of europe has abrogated the job of keeping the peace in the world to us, then they chafe at the fact that someone is watcing to make sure they don't do something stupid.

People don't really like policemen, they think the cops all need to leave them alone. But when some scumbag mugs 'em in the park they run crying to the nearest cop. Trust me, when I'madinnerjacket gets his bomb and starts threatening europe with it, they'll run crying to us to "Do something"

We weren't all that well liked before WW2 either.
and 95% of the american people polled in 1940 wanted nothing to do with the "european war",
Look how well that turned out.


Bin Laden's recruiting figures
Lev where are you getting Bin Laden's recruiting figures from? Maybe the guy who's doing his accounting can tell us what cave to bomb.

You seem to be under the misguided notion that the islamists will leave us alone if we just leave them alone. That doesn't always work with honey bees, and it sure won't work with a group of freaks who think a fun day on the town is killing infidels in the name of allah.

They didn't just start hating us the day Bush took office. Thomas Jefferson wrote about future problems with Muslim pirates and extremists.
Who do you thin the Barbary pirates were?

Not just Bin Laden, but every other high level islamist freak has repeated the same message for years. "World Islamic Domination"! Bin Laden himself has repeatedly said that the seat of his new GLOBAL CALIPHATE will be in Baghdad.

Now you can discount GWB as a neocon.
But when some crazy who has already killed thousands tells me he wants to rule the world, I kinda believe him.

But then I'm just a "Warpublican" right?




opinions or facts?
It's comical how opinions get in the way of facts.
Do you or don't you believe in personal responsibility? You have a choice, let the government take care of you or take PERSONAL responsibility. It's not a Democratic or Republican thing. If you believe something is wrong, then work to change it. We allow the powers that be to make very personal decisions for us, why? There's talk and there's action, what is your choice?
Someone is going to be elected POTUS this year, half the people of this country our going to be upset on who it is, what's that tell you. Change is a bottom-up or a top-down determination, nothing more, nothing less. Become part of the solution or get the f*ck out of the way!

No Jack, you're a sophist
The NIE stated that Iraq improved Bin Laden's recruiting and sympathizers are up.

Yeah those Barbary Wars were something fierce. What you obviously think Jefferson should have done is invade Tripoli, then divert his resources and occupy Babylon, not that it had anything to do with the piracy, but we have to bomb the people into liking us, or hating us less as you somehow argue.

Yeah Bin Laden has been screaming World Caliphate. You talk about strictly what he says, that is an impossible goal. You still haven't shown how it is a possible goal. Should we really lay out a defense strategy with this being a legitimate outcome? Give me a break.

Bin Laden also talks about foreign occupation, puppet governments, and so on, this is not an impossible goal, this is a fact used for propaganda purposes and thus far more important to strategy than your old wives tales.

lonestarblues and virtue
That was a very intelligent distinction you made between personal and universal virtues. I can use it. To draw the line on unnecessary laws. May not work every time, but it's the best I've come across so far.

Not everyone agrees that there are universal laws; I do.

Another angle on why there is so much disagreement on the role of government laws is gender differences. Someone once commented that women tend to want security and protection from government, and men - freedom. Women tend not feel as safe in any society. This is not blaming anyone - it's biology. In gaining independence, the western woman has lost protection, which she is now seeking from the government. I've noticed that the more educated we women become, the more left-wing we are. University ideologies play a role too.

When I feel myself pulled toward the security/protection promises, I grab for freedom, because I've seen what the cost is when you give away freedom. Security goes too.

My comment about not trusting ideologies very definitely does refer to governments, as well as individual activists. I've seen what the communists did to my relatives and my country of birth - Lithuania. The Utopia brought about by guns, prisons, torture and slave labor. Save me from human Utopias.

More on virtue: Laisve
Aristotle was right on instilling virtues through habit but not on legislating them. The reason? The test of a man's virtuous character is what he does when there are no consequences to him, even more so when it costs him dearly to do the right thing.

Regarding standards, why should virtue set a low standard? Doing so describes the modern approach to virtue known as "moral relativism", which applies two standards to virtue: The law and tolerance. According to the first standard, it is right to do whatever one has a legal right to do (i.e. in private between consenting adults, which would include such things as assisted suicide, abortion and sodomy), and according to the second standard, there are no obligations except to obey the law and tolerate all conduct that is legal.

Want to know why today's politics is all about "values", i.e. virtue (ethics)? There's your answer. You may find this unseemly, but so long as American society's standard of virtue remains the lowest common denominator as described by its laws, you'll have to put up with it. Put differently, if every individual's standard of virtue is subjective, then their common standard will be objectively defined by the law. As a result, individuals & groups will compete politically to impose their favored standard of virtue on everyone else via force, i.e. the laws and their enforcement.

RCB and still more virtue
Hard as I tried, I couln't find anything to disagree with in your last comments. On one level, I even agree with your evaluation of Aristotle's statements.

Do your admirable standards in ethical behavior make you feel discouraged sometimes as you watch the behavior of the people around you contradict their professed noble sentiments?

I'm sad to say people with your beliefs are becoming a smaller and smaller minority. Still, I'm happy you're out there. Thanks for defending virtue.

The motto of my all-girls high school in Australia was "Knowledge and Virtue United." Like the concept, the school no longer exists.

"Live and let live" looks good on paper!

Problem is, there are those who have no intention of letting us live. The radical Islamics have plans for the USA, and letting us live as we have been is not in their plans.



Laisve: The Café
Do not judge lest you be judged, for by the same standard you measure it out others, so will it be measured out to you. We all fail to live up to our own standards, yet those of us who understand that it is our purpose to seek truth, beauty and good forgive the transgressions lest their eyes loose sight of these standards.

Put more simply, the other day I was in a café in Aubonne, and on the opposite sides of the dining area were two TV screens, one displaying semi-pornographic music videos, and the other a children's movie. I turned my back on the semi-pornography and watched the children's movie. There is much to one's back on, these days, and there is little to say to those who can't understand why.

RCB & Laisve
Great discussion, if I might chime in again...

"Aristotle was right on instilling virtues through habit but not on legislating them. The reason? The test of a man's virtuous character is what he does when there are no consequences to him, even more so when it costs him dearly to do the right thing."

Exactly. In fact if a man mere follows commands, robot-like, he is not virtuous at all. One must be free to choose.

"When I feel myself pulled toward the security/protection promises, I grab for freedom, because I've seen what the cost is when you give away freedom. Security goes too."

Right. I think too many confusedly place them on an either/or scale where in war we need to accept less freedom for more security. But they are not opposites, what are we trying to secure if not freedom?

Anne
"'Live and let live' looks good on paper!

"Problem is, there are those who have no intention of letting us live. The radical Islamics have plans for the USA, and letting us live as we have been is not in their plans."

Except "live and let live" doesn't say that. I think you're isolating half of Locke's ideas on natural rights. The idea is one should be free to pursue one's interests in so far as those action do not harm another's equal freedom, but when one's freedom is harmed or threatened one is justified in defending it. That is why we form government in the first place.

Pauls assesses Islamofascism as less a threat than you or I do, but let's not throw out the baby of freedom with the bathwater of disagreement.

lonestarblues: Locke's ideas? Right!
”… isolating half of Locke's ideas on natural rights.”

No, actually I ‘m talking about the title of the column and paul’s theory that if “we just leave…” everything will be just swell!

First of all, paul DOES’T KNOW that, and it’s an awfully big gamble to take with OUR LIVES and the future of OUR COUNRTY!

Second, al Qaeda has never said, “get your troops out of the ME, and everything will be swell.”

Third, “freedom” of any kind has never been on the radical Islamic’s “to do” list. Not part of their agenda! Never HAS BEEN… ever!

Fourth, that whole, “how would YOU like it if…” argument is very misleading, and has nothing to do with the reality of the world today.


You may be willing to put your life and your future, and the lives of your family in the hands of paul and his "THEORY" but I'm NOT!!!


Paul
Max:

He is for ending Federal laws on drugs, states would still be free to make them illegal or legal as they see fit. Prostitution is not against Federal law, yet only Nevada (and not even everywhere here) makes it legal. But as far as that goes, you'll find that prostitution is available everywhere and unlike in Nevada, these prostitutes have a high rate of STDs including HIV. Seems making it illegal really has done much to solve the problem.

Prohibition didn't work in the 1920s--it lead to the greatest expansion of criminality in US history. Today beer sellers and to a large extent beer drinkers are peaceful. The idiotic war on drugs is not unlike the war on booze in the 20s, marked by organized crime, violence and the like. If it didn't work then, why do you expect it to work now? Since the 1930s, the US has waged a war on drugs--how sucessful has this war been? If it is been, then why is it that I could have any illegal drug I wished by the end of the day?


Anne
"You may be willing to put your life and your future, and the lives of your family in the hands of paul and his 'THEORY' but I'm NOT!!!"

I just got done saying "Pauls [sic] assesses Islamofascism as less a threat THAN YOU OR I DO, but let's not throw out the baby of freedom with the bathwater of disagreement" so who exactly are you arguing with?

And yes you are ”… isolating half of Locke's ideas on natural rights.” Paul doesn't argue “we just leave…” everything. That exaggeration seems to come from a desire for security against fears that overwhelms what we need to secure, liberty.

Happiness
The secret of happiness is freedom.
The secret of freedom is courage.
Thycydides

All the best to you, lonestarblues and RCB.



Laisve & Lonestar
Thanks for the kind words and farewells. Ditto. It's exhilarating to discover gold, even in a digital wasteland.

Lonestar: Ahhh, yeah, Paul DOES argue
that “we just leave…” .

I've heard him say it with his own lips on FOX and, if I recall, Glenn Beck on CNN.

"That exaggeration seems to come from a desire for security against fears that overwhelms what we need to secure, liberty."

Actually, THAT statement says nothing... "0" but what I believe you're trying to say is that we're afraid of fear...

HARDLY! You seem to ASSUME 1) that it's fear, and 2) where it comes from.

Nope! And it's NOT FEAR! What it is is intelligent assessment of what we're up against, along with the a healthy assessment of how to deal with, and counter it.

Sorry.



RCB - The Cafe
If you're in Switzerland, pursuing truth, beauty and good, you have just improved Switzerland.

Anne
Sorry, but what I read in your post is more fear than facts.

I think there are good reasons for remaining in Iraq, so we agree but I don't buy the fears you raise.

As for Paul and the myth he's weak on national defense, he says "We should have a strong national defense but not be so frightened that we're afraid to talk to people." from http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=50817 .

See also Ron Paul and National Defense @ http://noelgibeson.townhall.com/g/5fbb2d80-95b3-49d7-90e8- bdcd89d4b323 .

lonestar: Well, you MIS-UNDERSTOOD!!!!

But then, no matter what, you and paul and the paulists will always read "fear" into anything anyone says or posts, because it serves your purpose!

But let me try (once AGAIN!) to explain that just because someone RECOGNIZES that a group actually MEANS what they SAY, when they say "DEATH to AMERICA" and talk about "WIPING AMERICA OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH!" it does NOT mean we fear them.

The intelligent and well informed people take it seriously (not fear!) and plan accordingly to protect exactly what al qaeda plans to destroy! (And that would be us... the United States!)

And may I remind you AGAIN, al qaeda has never said that if we leave, everything will he just nifty! Nope! Not even a clue!

And exactly what would one expect to negotiate or settle by talking to someone (al qaeda) when their SOLE GOAL is to CONVERT or KILL us.

And that's only AFTER they've devistated the entire ME region once we've left.

Not only is it a plan, they've made their plan very clear!

To not head that plan is beyond IRRESPONSIBLE!!!




Spelling error... :-( Sorry
Should be "To not heed that plan...."



Akagi writes ...
"if Paul wasn't such a nave (sic) on foreign policy I could actually support him ..."

actually Paul's position of live and let live in foreign as well as domestic policy is the consistent libertarian position. the real knaves are the Republican and Democrat establishment that's in bed with the globalists in the CFR, the Tri-Lateral Commission, and the Bilderberg Group ... and who apparently support the neo-colonialist agenda that was espoused in the PNAC by the neo-Cons who are the real puppet masters running our country.


Anne
"Well, you MIS-UNDERSTOOD!!!!"

Or you misspoke? I think we speak past each other.

For example, even though we both agree on maintaning fighting forces in the ME, you keep saying things like "But then, no matter what, you and paul and the paulists will always read "fear" into anything anyone says or posts, because it serves your purpose!" And poisoning the well of discussion with fallacies like "The intelligent and well informed people" is not helping you in the debate.

All I'm saying about your fears is you should minimize them and speak from a position of American strength and greatness which cannot be defeated by Islamofascism.

My other point is equally simple, the intent "Live and Let Live" here regarding Paul has to do not with foreign policy but domestic, and the age-old debate of whether the purpose of government is to protect liberty or promote virtue. Paul's message is it is, according to the Declaration, to protect liberty, and that extends, constitutionally, to a strong national defense.

Laisve: Beauty & Switzerland
Beauty is Switzerland, for none who have eyes to see can escape it here. Who builds cathedrals among Alpine pinnacles far more majestic than any work of man may ape?

What good is there in beauty? A sense of well-being, of a lack of defect, malice, or surprise. In beauty there is wholeness admitting of no defects or shortcomings, no fall of man. There is only a sense of Eden as it was made at first, designed without corruption, either offered or accepted. As men, we appreciate the purity of beauty, all the while desiring to possess it, dominate it, mock it. And in doing so, we define our fallen-ness. There is no work of our art that can redeem us.

This is what the beauty of Switzerland teaches (and J.S. Friedrich von Schiller).

RCB and Beauty
I understand. On my way from New York City to somewhere else, I fell in love with a silver bay at the foot of a range of snow-capped mountains. The pale blue and white city surrounded by water on three sides got along well by not competing with the wide, changing sky, the sea and the mountains. I changed my plans and moved here. British Columbia is not unlike Switzerland in its natural gifts.

To appreciate this beauty, in the islands as well as the mainland, it helps to have non-human guides. I've been lucky to be shown things I would have missed by a Samoyed, an American Eskimo and a Husky, all liberty-loving types, intelligent and responsible.

But I see the escalating interference with this beauty, the city growing big and ugly, spreading concrete and violence...

RCB - A plea
What was I thinking? It was late at night. Please delete the last posting - too sentimental. Momentary lapse of humor.
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