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Wednesday, December 05, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Tragedy of the Commons II
by John Stossel
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


My Thanksgiving column about how the pilgrims nearly starved practicing communal farming but thrived once they switched to private cultivation made some people angry. One commented, "Sharing of the fruits of our labor is a bad thing?"

I never said that.

I practice charity regularly. I believe in sharing. But when government takes our money by force and gives it to others, that's not sharing.

And sharing can't be a basis for production -- you can't share what hasn't been produced. My point is that production and prosperity require property rights. Property rights associate effort with benefits. Where benefits are unrelated to effort, people do the least amount necessary to get by while taking the most they can get. Economists have a pithy way of summing up this truth: No one washes a rental car.

It's called the "tragedy of the commons." The idea is as old as ancient Greece, but ecologist Garrett Hardin popularized the phrase in a 1968 Science magazine article. Hardin described a common pasture on which anyone may graze his livestock. Each person will benefit from a larger herd but will suffer only a tiny fraction of the negative effects of overgrazing. Public Choice economists call this "concentrated benefits and dispersed costs."

That's a recipe for depleting the resource. If a herdsman were to leave a portion of the commons ungrazed, someone else would gain the benefit, so why leave it ungrazed? Soon, all the grass is gone, and the livestock die. That's the tragedy of the commons.

There are two possible solutions. One is to put someone in charge. But that someone would have arbitrary power over the rest -- he may give his friends better terms -- and one individual can't possibly know how to plan the village economy.

The second solution, as the pilgrims learned the hard way, is private property. Property rights unite costs and benefits. If a herdsman owns part of the pasture, he reaps not only 100 percent of the benefits of enlarging his herd but also 100 percent of the costs. Under those conditions, he behaves differently. If he undergrazes, uses fewer pesticides, etc., to make sure that the pasture flourishes next year, he can anticipate the future benefits. So, he has a strong incentive to be a good steward of the land.

This principle is pertinent today. People lament endangered species and call for government action. But that is the inferior "solution" already discussed. What we need is private property.

Cows, chickens, turkeys and pigs are never at risk of becoming endangered. What's special about them? Only that individuals own these animals and sell them. That gives livestock owners an incentive to keep them healthy and plentiful year after year.

The animals whose future we do worry about -- whales and elephants, for example -- are not typically subject to ownership. It's the tragedy of the commons.

Elephants are endangered because in much of Africa, poachers kill them for their tusks. Poachers have no incentive to expand herds, and neither does anyone else. Governments outlawed hunting and the ivory trade, but that hasn't stopped the loss of elephants. The plain is too vast to police it all.

Yet, where the property principle has been applied -- however imperfectly -- the fate of the elephants has been reversed. Villagers in Zimbabwe earn income by permitting hunting. In effect, the villagers have property rights in the herds. That changes attitudes. They'd be poorer if they let the elephants be hunted to extinction.

The result? "To say that we have too many elephants would be an understatement," Zimbabwe Department of National Parks and Wildlife Management acting director E.W. Kanhanga said in 2001.

The system is not perfect because individual property rights -- which would create a stronger sense of responsibility -- are not allowed. Moreover, the system has come under suspicion because cronies of Zimbabwe's despicable dictator, Robert Mugabe, are said to be killing elephants in game parks.

Nevertheless, Zimbabwe tried property rights. Kenya tried prohibition. Kenya lost elephants while Zimbabwe gained them. [http://tinyurl.com/22xdrp].

The pattern is clear. Property equals responsibility equals prosperity.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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While I certainly agree with your
principle, your example (Zimbabwe) is disgusting.

It must be the only thing Mugube did sort of right.

Government Control
Why do people get so enamored with government involvement in anything other than the military? Does anyone really believe that if the government owned all the farmland in the USA that the same amount of crops would be produced?

Even after all these years the post office still cannot guarantee next day delivery of mail while UPS and FedEx have no problem with this. Government health care might sound tempting, but please, do we really think health care would improve with government controlling it? Bottom line: When you own it, you take care of it. It's easy to spend someone else's money, but when it's your own, well, behavior changes.

Another Example: Clear-cutting
Environmentalists like to kvetch about clear-cutting of forests. Well, guess what? That mainly happens on PUBLIC LANDS.

On private lands, we actually have more trees in more forest land than we had a hundred years ago. Maybe it's not the famed "Old Growth" forest -- but the solution there is to take whatever "Old Growth" forest remains and auction it off to the highest bidder.

Re: to The Cyclist
I can tell you why people seem so enamored with government: Because for years, people have thought that because everyone votes for governments, they believe it to be more "fair", and because they manage the law, they are also thought to be just.

On a day to day basis, people experience the cupidity and fraud of others through the press, and in so doing become fearful of the private sector for anything. Profit motive has become something to be disdained, in spite of the fact that without the motives behind free enterprise our nation would not enjoy the prosperity we have today. At the same time, such goodness and prosperity has to come with some sort of catch, of which the Left believes must be paid through acts of altruism, enforced by law if necessary.

The Left believes that people are perfectable, and that only through government can the perfect society of perfect individuals be achieved. After all, government has the power to rule lives. The liberal desire immediate gratifacation, and immediate results, to shape and mold society as they see fit. The rights of the individual will be swept aside if it doesn't conform to this ideal. Those without the right intentions of altruism will also be swept aside, forced to either adopt such feelings or be dealt with. With force, if necessary, but be assured that such force will NOT be a last resort.

hmm...
yes this article is completely correct and I agree with it 100%. But of course the application of this principle to CO2 emissions and carbon credits... the predicted response: nope does not apply , fingers are in my hears "I cant year you" I hear you shout...

Perhaps we should legalize drugs
and place Washington in charge of supplying the addicts as a business. Using the "tragedy of the commons" theme and Washington's normal acumen, within a year the price of cocaine and heroin will increase by a factor of 10 and the addicts will be going straight.

No Trolls?
Where is the "Property is Theft' crowd? I guess the trolls have slept in this morning.

Wayfinder and Cyclist
While on a theoretical basis, as long as the disabled got their assistance to use their private property well to it's best production, this seems like a fair proposition. But then who's going to decide who gets that penthouse condo in New York v. an old needs some work farmhouse in the middle of nowhere?

Your system of private property only echoes what the earliest Americans did when they came to America: steal the land from the natives and then parcel it out among themselves. And they were our forefathers, the oldest and richest families in America, whose decendenta live on the billions that grew from those parcels of land, who inherit their income which should be properly taxed as the income it is.

I'll tell you what, I'm a teacher of adult disabled students, make 24,000 and spend about $300 a month on all the students at our facility. There are 3 other teachers who do not contribute to suppling little gifts for the Treasure Chest, the Weekly Prizes Drawing The Perfect Attendance Pizza Parties; and for my own classes, birthday parties and birhday gifts. Now I'll tell you I own the least of all us 4 teachers have the least income, totally, but whenever the suggestion pops up that maybe someone could help me with the costs here, everyone has too much they're spending on already. So I know about how well sharing would work. But where do the roads come from, the parks, libraries, schools. There are lots of things like police, that those rich and wealthy would sorely miss, so sharing is a necessity. I know sharing isn't fun, but that the question should be on the table shows where we stand in our social maturity. So I've been called a Socialist; well, ok. In Kohlberg's heirchy of social/moral development it's up at the top, regardless what the majority of the society think. So I'm pretty secure in my philosophy. And maybe someday you'll get there, too.

I knew it would happen
I just knew it. Somebody would drag out some exception, like the disabled, to endorse massive legal change.

Well, Jeanne-marie, if you subsidize it, you get more of it. Job security for you, huh?

There is virtually nothing that private enterprise can't do better than government. Where do roads come from? Where do power lines come from? They are a road of sorts. They get built. Deals are made to share them, lease them, get broad access to them, etc. The same could be done with roads. Libraries could easily be privatized with small lending fees, as could police for that matter. At least police power is a proper function of government, as are courts and military. Most of the studd government meddles in now is not.


impact
Dear Impact,

You are really being silly when you suggest that I went to Graduate School in Exceptional Education for a guaranteed income because there will always be challenged persons. I worked 20 years as an Executive Secretary in Boston and in 1984 I made 21,000 without any college education, just because I was good, spoke like I had an education, was lecterned by my mom, bless her heart on art, music, opera, architecture, history, etc., and had discretion. I also wore suits and ties so I fit the image. I worked hard, which is how I go to work for those Old Wealthy Families who live on Louisberg Square, the most exclusive address in Boston, and their names go back to the Mayflower, and believe me they didn't use common investment firms to invest their money, although the president owned one. I worked in their private investment firm, and when they made an investment, they moved the market. They treated me like a professional, and I left after I finally, after years, got pregnant, to stay home and make sure I had that baby.
I will say I get a lot of gratification when I finally have taught another letter, or number, or social response, and they love that they have learned it as well. It doesn't pay, mostly because these individuals aren't valued, If they were, their instructors would be, too.

I'll tell you the truth, my older brother is mentally ill, he is disabled, and that is why I went into special education in graduate school. So you can sit on that for a while. And I hope you never have any members of your family disabled in any way, for the compassion I see you would have for them. Yours truly,

Jeanne-marie
When are you moving to Cuba? It is the last of the true communist countries. China is trying to slowly move away from communism, but not totally so that is also an alternative for you.

Jeanne-Marie
You have missed the point. IT IS NOT SHARING WHEN YOU TAKE SOMETHING FROM ITS OWNER BY FORCE AND GIVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE. THAT IS CALLED THEFT.

Sharing is when you have a bag of chips and you hold it out to your friend and say *Would you like some chips?*

Or when you say to your secretary *Want to go out for coffee? My treat!*

Or when you take two boxes of brand-new underwear and sox to the Drop-In Centre because you frankly do not believe anybody should have to wear second-hand underwear.

Now if I grab your bag of chips and hand them to the girl in the next cube from me, that is not sharing. That is stealing.

If you send your secretary down to buy coffee for a client with her own money, that is not sharing. That is theft.

If you loot a store and give the loot to a shelter, that is not sharing. That is robbery.

Do you see the difference?

Sharing can only occur when you give someone else some of WHAT YOU OWN. You cannot share things that belong to other people.

Vic
I sincerely hope that you never have in your family, primary or extended, a disabled child. Your lack of compassion is beyond belief. I don't need to go to Cuba to be welcome. All my clients welcome me each day with smiles and hugs and hope. I don't need your approval. I could use some extra money, because I take care of all t he other classes with the treasure chest, weekly drawing and Pizza Parties. You may not value what I do, but my clients do, and that's what matters. My brother has a mentor up north where he lives, and he can even go to the library down the street today. That's progress. Well, as they say, and the meek shall...

Each to his own; you can scowl about having to help these disabled people survive; what's the option, letting them die??? You might someday go to one of these places and meet some of these disabled; they would love to show off some of the things they CAN do. Meanwhile, I know that you really do believe that God values these people maybe even more than you amd me, who can walk, talk, count, know the alphabet, sing, etc.
And maybe this year for Christmas, Christmas past, present and future will visit you, and, well you know the rest of the story...

Jeanne-Marie
You are totally missing the point. How would you like it if someone held a gun to your head and told you you had to give whatever amount to supply awards and parties for your clients? It is compassionate to give of your own volition, It is not compassionate to have your private property
confiscated (or dare I say extorted) for the same purpose. Sharing is volitional, extortion is not.

Massachusetts
Here lies the problem. Jeanne-Marie has lived in Massachusetts way to long. The greedest of all is the government. Always wanting more. Liberals always cry and say people are greedy if they don't want to give. What you really want is people to give on their own because they want to give. That is what truely make for a better society.

Sob Stories
Jeanne-marie writes: My brother has a mentor up north where he lives, and he can even go to the library down the street today. That's progress. Well, as they say, and the meek shall...

Jeanne-marie writes: I'll tell you the truth, my older brother is mentally ill, he is disabled, and that is why I went into special education in graduate school. So you can sit on that for a while. And I hope you never have any members of your family disabled in any way, for the compassion I see you would have for them. Yours truly,

***

Oh, for crickety's sake! Paging Ann Coulter -- we have another you-can't-disagree-with-me-because-I'm-a-victim in the building.

It so happens that I agree with Vic and Impact. There are things government should do (defense), but overall, the system works better with LESS government, not more. Take for instance, the aforementioned public schools and libraries. It's a sad fact that literacy rates in this country were higher before the advent of public schools and public libraries.

And BTW, I have a son with Down Syndrome, so my opinions are above criticism.

For Unca Alby @ 01:23
Correct.

Also, one can see the difference in the states of environment of Russia, China and India. In all of them, government has been cent-percent responsible for environment protection for a long stretch (Russia's case, 1917-1992)--and the state of the environment is absolutely deplorable (note that India has two of five "top polluted spots" in Blacksmith Institute ranking, China has another two).

Sgt. Relic, Juke and JohnnyM
Folks you should know by now that if you are going to be reasonable, then there will be no discussion. You are dealing with a liberal semi-socialist view of forced charity. There was a time when do goods (God love them) had passion for an issue and went about inspiring people of good will to contribute to further the cause, (the Salvation Army is the first to come to mind) but good little liberals who are holier then thou, started to lobby the Government to take yours and give it to their cause. You will be going around in circles with the "if you ever experienced this in your family" until your vision blurs. OF COURSE YOU WOULD BE DEVASTATED, but perhaps lobbying your church or your community, the Kiwanas, or Knights of Columbus. Ahh but why bother when you can take it from others. When we are taxed into a hole do the do goods care where the money came from?

For Cyclist @ 00:48
For the example of mail delivery, the case is even worse in Canada than US. I've seen plenty of excuses for the slow service (including the fact that Canada is about the size of full-Europe; excuse me, so is the US--where it generally doesn't take FOUR DAYS*** to deliver inside the same city), but never improvements; however, Canada Post HAS been willing to PENALISE others (such as utilities) for employing bike couriers to deliver their bills.

A real topper about Canada Post: it CHARGES (unlike USPS) to do change-of-address--and then can't figure if it is individual or family (also had this experience), and will not refund the charges for cancelling this.


***Based on the postmark of a reject-letter I received some years ago, mailed from downtown Calgary--I happened to live at that time in NW quadrant.

VA Lady, great retort!
Communists like Jeane-Marie never, ever get it. They are incapable of logical thought and facing reality. They are trying to live John Lennon's "Imagine" as if that could come true. Isn't the definition of insanity the continued attempt at the same thing while expecting different results? That describes left-wing libdolts (I don't use the term "liberals" anymore as a true liberal is a good thing, while a commie libdolt is not).

Is it just me ...
or does Jean-Marie sound like some snooty old elitist? Jean-Marie, you'd better tilt your head down. With all the rain you get up in the northeast, you'd better be careful lest you drown.

The French, egads!

commercial fishing, yet another example
In brief: The commercial fishing industry is a contemporary example. The sea is treated as common pasture. The behavior of commercial fishermen is regulated by government, fishing stocks are depleted and resources waisted.

Over the years, governments have had "rescue plans" for fishing stocks.. All fail. Someday, fishing rights for portions of the sea will be sold. The owner's self interest in their investment will protect, nurture, and husband the fishing grounds back to health.

AudiR10
You're right; I get the point. Charity is personal, and we could leave the fates of the disabled up to charity. We could...

Well I told you about how I spend about $300 a month on the treasure chest, weekly drawing prizes, pizza party for all 6 classes; and once when I felt emboldened and it was a tight month, I asked if the others might want to help with the cost factor, I'd still do all the looking and buying, and the answers were all I've got a mortgage to pay, we're going on a cruise next month, my little grandchildren are coming, we just got engaged, you know the run of the mill responses, and this was after 2 1/2 years of mmy continually feeding the end of the week happiness. So, you see I already know what would happen if you left their fates up to willingly sharing. And then there's out of sight, out of mind.

Do they have Christmas? Some have homes to go to...some just stay there at the group homes they live in, long forgotten by by Vic's family. Would the general population feel good about their taxes if they knew it was spent helping a disabled person survive? Gee, after Vic, I really can't answer that, now. I thought I knew the answer to that, before, but, now...well, you ask yourself, would you feel good about it?

And as you mentioned about the underwear and socks, I buy everything I wear at thrift shop, so I can afford treasure chest, weekly drawing prizes, pizza parties. It's ok, I have what I need. Well, thanks for not chopping me up.

Property rights are over-rated...
Who owns the air you are breathing???
Who owns the water seeping into your yard after a rainstorm???
Who owns the minerals beneath your home???

Property rights are only as useful/powerful as the accounting methods upon which they are based.

That native americans accepted "trinkets" in exchange for "ownership" of the land had alot to do with a lack of understanding of how to account for ownership of the land. How could something so limited and ephemeral as a human being own soething so vast and enduring as the land. Now... imagine a UFO landing on earth and asking if they could breath our air. Even offering us a gift in exchange. Who would find exception with that? Seems harmless, right? Well that's when they suck all the earth's air into their inter-galactic cruiser and prepare to take off. Seems unlikely, but you see the point right? Property rights only function to the extent that we can account for that ownership. There are currently many areas of dispute when it comes to ownership and how to account for it.

The pattern is clear.
"The pattern is clear. Property equals responsibility equals prosperity."

The clear pattern is that greed knows no bounds, and the greedy are always preaching that charity is superior to a government hand-out. In some ways they are correct, since the government officials can be just as greedy as private citizens, and they have a gun, too. But that is not what John said. What John said is "my greed is good, and I give some away to sooth my conscious." This lame excuse is thousands of years old. Only those who take too much originally have the wherewithal to "give back." They are not really "giving" anything, except what they took previously.

It's like Robin Hood. He stole from the rich to give to the poor, but the rich became rich by stealing from the poor. So who really "owns" the wealth? The fact is that we are miserable together or we are happy together. Mr. Stossell's view of reality is terribly distorted and self-serving, as was Robin Hood's and the Sherrif's.

Contrary to popular belief, just because somebody else is wrong (liberals) that doesn't make their opposite right (conservatives.) Both sides can be wrong, but for different reasons.

Enter through the narrow gate.

http://www.behappyandfree.com

Governments dont share
They extort. Ever try to say NO to them? Want to lose everything then try to say no. John is right on again. You may not like his examples but he has a way of taking a complex situation and simplifying it so only the politically challenged crowd refuses to understand. Charity is good when its voluntary. Its bad when people with armed forces insist that you share.
The key on all this is motivation. Private property owners have motivation to maximize the resource. With common or public ownership only nominal ballot box motivation exists.
So who should you trust more? They guy who has a dog in the fight or the politicians?

Jeanne-marie
You are going in the wrong direction with the "will the people care when out of sight out of mind takes place. Salvation Army never forgets, neither do many of the home grown charities and Churches. They are made up of people just like you claim to be (and I have no reason to doubt you) but they solicit funds they do not extract them, and personally when I contribute to those organizations I am delighted to know that my money is going to one good cause or another. That is not the case with Government or a basically anonymous you!

Jean-marie
You are a saint. You really, really are. Just like me. I make only $5000 a year and give half to my church, the rest to the poor at the food pantry where I help out 36 hours a day. I have given my left kidney to a perfect stranger and my right to my brain damaged neighbor. I join you in demanding that others around me do the same thing and if they don’t I will spend what little time I have left to lobby congress to pass a law that will make everyone be as good and noble and selfless as I am.

Mind you, I am very humble. And I am not even proud of my humility and my goodness and my sacrifice. You do notice how I sacrifice, don’t you? Did I tell you about my son with Spin bifida and my daughter with water on the brain? But that’s a story for another time and another place.

Steve, a question
How exactly are you defining greed? And I must make the obligatory response to your characterization of Mr. Stossel's argument: where do you signs of personal greed in his argument?

On a lighter note, I have another example along the lines of "nobody washes a rental car":

My husband was quite nonchalant about beverages spilling on the carpet when we rented an apartment, but that all changed when we bought our first house!

Frog, RichL, Johnny M
You may try to reduce me to a caricature of some do gooder voluntary socialist, but you know what, I went to church and I heard what they said; there's a difference between listening and hearing. There may be millions listening in churches all over the country without hearing a word. I hate to pull the religion card, but it's gotten to that point. Faith doesn't force you to give; if you have faith you give willingly, you seek those to give to. You do not let any famish, or come anywhere near it. If the church ran the government, the taxes might even be higher.

I could have only 1 child, and he was a genuine gift from God. He's 23, college graduate with honors, works in marketing, takes care of his father,who's mind is deteriorating, every day, gives him his diabetes shots, we're all going away for the Holiday so he can show his dad a good time, (I've been remarried for the last 17 years), takes his dad to the doctor, etc. Could you ask for a better son? I've ben graced. I don't need new clothes or furniture. I am graced every daya w ith my clients and my loving husband. And if they raise my taxes for the poor, I'll be happy to pay it. My house is a "shack" so to speak, but it's good enough, more than a lot of people have. I'll pay my taxes for the poor so they can survive, too. And if anyone has a problem with my French Canadian background, then you know you are prejudiced. I'm also Italian. Have any feelings about that, too?

Jeanne-marie
I used to be a socialist. What changed my mind was going into academia (where there are plenty of socialists) and seeing how stingy and greedy most socialists are.

Socialists generally hate hierarchies, but academia is extremely hierarchical. And it helps greatly if you have come from a wealthy background (like, say, Wittgenstein or Martha Nussbaum or John Rawls).

So how do socialists in academia feel about academia's hierarchy? They don't mind it. They have no plans to change it. For those of us who are unemployed, this isn't exactly what we want to hear.

Now, when these socialists come out with books praising socialism, I write to them and ask them if they would be willing to apply socialist principles to academia. Most do not even reply. One socialist from Sweden was honest enough to answer and admit that they shouldn't be.

That's when I abandoned socialism. Their slogan is "what's yours is mine and what's mine is mine."

Jenne-Marie I am glad
You feel so good about yourself. Your attitude on sharing is wonderful for you. There is one problem however; it seems you want the king’s men to enforce your methodology on the rest of us. BTW ever think that maybe the king’s men take a cut? Share all you want. Be aware that many charitable organizations share the same way you do. The big difference is they do it because they want to do it.
I too have a disabled family member. The family not the village takes care of her.

You left his dad ...?
when his mind was going? Whoa. You're leaving a man for the Holiday so he can have a good time?

That halo is getting a little .... no, no, no, I must keep reminding myself that you are a saint. Shack, shoddy furniture, second hand clothes, the mark of a saint.

Jeanne-marie
By the way, these old established wealthy families you talk about, which way do they lean politically? If you're in Massachusetts, I'm guessing that they lean left.

And thanks for the info about private investment firms. I had never heard about them before.

deeteegt
"Property rights are over-rated..."

I've heard that one before, especially from the socialist academics I referred to in my previous post. They write books denouncing property rights, but of course when it comes to the property rights associated with their book, they suddenly are all in favor of property rights.

Academia is filled with socialists, but they do not want academia run along socialist principles. Doesn't that tell you something?

Academia is filled with people who denounce property rights, yet these same people talk about "my professorship," "my book," etc. The property in this instance is less tangible than ordinary property, but it is property nonetheless. And they have no plans to share it.

Jeanne-marie
We all have a choice as to what we decide to do for a living. You have decided to teach disabled children. That is fine. You also knew how much your salary was. If it was not enough for you, then you should have chosen another career. As for the goodies for the children that you pay for each month, if it is becoming a burden on your pocketbook, then you may need to consider cutting back on the things you buy. There are other ways to reward the children and celebrate birthdays that don't require an enormous cost.

We must all live within our means. If what you make financially is not enough, then you need to seek a career that pays more. The fact is, one should not be forced to give up hard EARNED money to pay for others. Most wealthy people give a great deal of money to charity, whether it be for the tax deduction or out of the goodness of their hearts. If you start taxing the heck out of them, they will be less likely to give.

JFP any critical thinking going on...
Thanks for the blustering... now do you have any critical thinking to contribute? Did you read anything beyond the subject line?

Do you agree or disagree that the concept of property rights is only as powerfu/useful as the accounting methods behind them? Please take at least a minute to think about it before posting. Thanks.

Suggestion for you, Jean-Marie...
ask all your co-workers their political party affiliation. Then read the book "Who Really Cares: America's Charity Divide" by Arthur C. Brooks.

Then again, you probably couldn't handle the truth. It would upset your world to the point that you might not be so confident in your socialist self ingratiating beliefs.

A reason for enduring poverty
in the third world is that so many places have still yet to grasp the concept of private property.

The West has long understood the concept of using property to create wealth and opportunity.

You have land that you can prove is yours, that has been surveyed and certified, you can use it as collateral. Get a loan, buy more land or finance an idea. Begin entrepenuership.

But if your family has lived on a plot of land for 8 generations, BUT there is no established system of identifying it as YOURS, how do you convice a bank to give you a loan against it?


Jean-Marie writes...
"I hate to pull the religion card, but it's gotten to that point. Faith doesn't force you to give; if you have faith you give willingly, you seek those to give to."

Well, sweetie, I don't know what "faith" you're talking about, but the God I follow, Jesus Christ, doesn't teach me to steal from another and then give. The sacrifices I am to make are personal. It does me no good to force others to give on my behalf. I'd love to tell you all the wonderful things that I do with my time, talent, and treasure, but then I'd be just like the Pharisees.

And as for being French Canadian, you can't throw your prejudiced card at me there. My grandfather was French Canadian so that makes me 1/4th French Canadian. Maybe the name LeGros means something to you. Anyway, booya!

Cover endangered donkeys and elephants
I wish that John would cover the tragedy of our common political life- how the elite has commandered both political parties to forward their pro illegal and legal immigration, open borders, globalist agenda. The elite has an organization called the Council on Foreign Relations(CFR) that they describe as a non partisan think tank. It is a pro big corporate world business cabal which is subverting our country. Please folks, do not wait for John and the rest of the main stream media to cover this. Google this and those things that come up and take your country back from elite control and put it back in the hands of we the people through voters being able to vote in their best interests instead of just what the elite arranges for us. Self education on the internet is our only hope now according to many experts who are sounding the alarm.

Flawed Logic
Communism is a failed economic system that can only be enforced temporarily. Pure capitalism is less flawed, but does not work without the intervention of government to moderate some of its baser characteristics. Their are fundamental reasons for these weaknesses one of them is the spill over effect. This is when my selfish interests create costs that end up falling on someone else. Our recent experiences with tainted pet food and lead paint in toys should have taught us that capitalism needs government. The stock market crash of the 1920's was a direct result of a lack of regulation and the recent problems with the sub-prime market also have the same cause. In fact every one of these fiscal or financial meltdowns (like the S$L scandal) can be directly attributed to Republican free marketeers being in change. And who ultimately pays for the ballout that follows each crisis? It the taxpayers without nearly a word of protest from conservatives.

Many of the most beautiful parks are on donated land deeded to the public by wealthy benefactors, but public protection of that land is essential. The strengh of country at its core is our mixed economy with a strong private sector and a robust public sector. (Reasonable regulations are good for business even if they don't always like them.)

deeteegt
The problem isn't the assailability (or non-) of your statement. The problem is that it is a well-worn sentiment, but the fact remains that no one who has decried the limitations and weaknesses of Private Property has managed to come up with an alternate concept that works half as well.

Anyone can criticize. Suggest your alternative, and let's have it out over THAT.

Moneyrunner
don't kid yourself, you are RICH!! Very RICH
LMFAO

Property equals responsibility
Let's find out how many Americans don't believe in property rights, shall we?

"Property equals responsibility equals prosperity."

Was their a point to all this rambling?

And? So?

Big deal? Why not write an entire essay on the Bill of Rights? Do you mean just "property rights" or "property rights" when guaranteed as part of the entire set enjoyed in the US as codified in the US Constitution?

What is the point of this essay?





Jean-Marie
You are getting lots of attention today. While I know that the posters truly believe that they can change your opinion, I also know that YOU are the only one in control of that...just as you are the only one in control of your circumstances.

I applaud your self-sacrifice in the service of others. It is laudable. If you also make it exemplary you might change the world. Perhaps you can start by enrolling your fellow teachers (and others) in its value. If so, you deserve greater recognition. If you cannot, it should be clear that your charitable priorities are not shared.

Should you or anyone else have the power to force one set of priorities on another? Before you answer, consider that the 'People's Republic of Massachussets' might someday shrug off the chains of socialism, embracing an entirely contrary set of priorities (however unlikely). Would you be in favor of someone else's state sponsored priorities, say Nazi Germany?

Grad girl
I agree that people are less concerned about other people's property than they are with their own, but is that a result of "the money bully," or because of the economic system? For example, if you were not paying rent, and and thought of yourself as a guest, would you keep the carpets clean? In light of how we pollute the environment, is pollution an economic necessity, do we not "own" it, are we "just" renters, etc?

Why is one person's labor regarded so highly, and another person regarded as expendable? The reality is that for 2/3 of our lives (at the beginning and end) everybody is "unproductive." We are, as a matter of survival, all dependent on one another, regardless of what we claim to "own." We use money to mask our vulnerability.

Money dehumanizes people, which is why it has been described as the root of all evil. America has made money its God, as many other societies have done, too. The results are always the same, and apologists like Mr. Stossel are very common. Remember Pangloss in Voltaire's Candide? They share a similar philosophy; he "glosses over" painful realities and thinks of himself as wise. He sees order where there is none, and instead embraces a form of madness. Some men are enslaved by fear, others by pride, others by their love of money. Usually all three in varying degrees, which becomes the basis of various political formations. A "group" are those who fear the same things (hence group-think.)

Now your husband lives in fear of making the carpet dirty. Did he become richer or poorer by buying a carpet? Now the carpet owns him. He is enslaved by what he values and what he possesses, just like every other rich person.

http://www.behappyandfree.com

Theft or charity
When I reach in my pocket to give money to the needy it is charity,

When I reach in your pocket to give money to the needy it is theft.

deeteegt
I re-read your post. Yes, I did read beyond the subject line the first time. And most of it struck me then, and still strikes me now, as something leftist, which is why I responded the way I did. If everyone who claims not to believe in property rights actually does believe in them, then why should the rest of us try to defend them?

If you're actually a libertarian arguing a point with other libertarians, I apologize.

As for your question, I'm not answering it yet. Are you relying on some book or article I could read to get a better handle on it? It seems kind of unrelated to the previous discussion, not that I'm complaining. I'm just curious.

JohnnyM
I have to challenge one assertion. While Massachusetts may be ONE of the greediest states, we here in Maryland have managed to burden ourselves with more taxes per capita than our left-leaning neighbor to the north. And we have voted in fewer Republicans than they have as governor. Admittedly, our one Republican was a real conservative, while theirs tend to be RINOs, but we only let him serve one term, and get nothing through the legislature, so I suggest we are the bigger tax-and-spend, ultra-blue-state cesspool.

Sadly, I was born here, as were my parents, my wife and my son, and will probably live here all my life griping about the insanely liberal government others choose to install year after year.

So tell me, deeteegt,
what exactly do we own, then? Do you own your body? Or does it exist merely for the benefit of the rest of society? If you really believe that, I'm sure there's more than a monestary or two that would love to have someone so committed to selflessness.

Truth be told, there is no right to property, read real estate, in the United States. You see, as long as your buddies in the government have the "right" to tax my property, I don't own it. I merely have a lifetime lease as long as I make my lease/tax payment.

I guess you win.

Private ok, in this case
as long as there is government oversight and
regulation.

Privatizing elephant lands could work.
Privatizing whales is a much harder thing.

And this wouldn't have worked too well for the
spotted owl. So, basically this article is
applicable to elephants, but how many other
animals? Probably not many imho.


GREED?
The Libs love this word but do they define their own desire for the good things of life as GREED? Is wanting to feed your family GREED? Where does self-interest end and GREED begin?

I have thought that some people define GREED in the same way George Carlin talks about speeders: "A maniac is someone who drives faster than I do and an idiot is someone who drives slower than I do." Anyone who EARNS more than I do is greedy.

T. Sowell on Tuesday wrote: "When people have to resort to words like "greed" or "exploitation," it is hopeless to try to have a rational discussion with them."



Government Giving is Good Economics
Stossel Writes: "And sharing can't be a basis for production -- you can't share what hasn't been produced. My point is that production and prosperity require property rights.

Is Stossel saying we keep the government out of helping people becasue it is not good economic theory?

Although the author and many others feel a sense of persoanl alturism towards others, Suppose not enough people feel the same and do not give to others and not enough people in need are helped?

Do we still keep the government out of helping people? Do we let them fall and fail. Or should the government be the last stop for a civil society?

I will argue that the government giving to people in need and helping them is good economics. We the people pay no matter what we do. Even if we eliminate all entitlements, we still pay. We either pay up front in form of entitlements and social programs or in the back-end in form of law enforcment and incarceration due to rising crime.

Do we invest in people and do a betetr job of developing social programs integrating them into society as consumers and contributors, or do we live with crime. Which has other costs. destruction of property and personal injury.

Which is the better ROI?

Paul
That was a dumb point by Sowell!

When did he become the language police?
And why do you want to join him?


Great Article As Usual
Stossel continues to clearly illustrate how using the implied lethal force of the government to coerce us into "sharing" is counter-productive.

The suggestion that only government can provide libraries or roads is incorrect, and in fact casual inspection will show how both examples prove the point: Our "free" (government provided) roads are choked with traffic and getting worse each day. People who use them because they're "free" spend considerably more time (the one thing we cannot get more of) in transit than those who have the option and choose to use toll roads. Additionally, private roads are usually better maintained than public roads.

Likewise, the public library has a handful of useful materials, but if you need a specialty publication, you must either buy it or go to a private library, because the public library is not likely to have it (nor should it).

There are never enough resources available to keep up the public infrastructure, because public funds first feed the bureaucracy. As little as 30 percent of the allocated funding actually goes toward the actual targeted expense. Public works are horribly inefficient because there's no incentive to be fiscally prudent. In fact, the reverse is usually true - public funds are allocated on a "use it or lose it" system, so public employees have an incentive to be wasteful with OUR tax dollars.

Audi Covered It
Audi covered it completely.

The difference between the difference between charity/compassion and government confiscation for redistribution is the difference between,

Night and Day,

Black and White,

Good and Evil.

Those who cannot grasp this simple concept would do well to study history and note that even the most deeply committed followers of religious/philosophic groups that have attempted true communism have all failed.

Communism is a lovely idea, but it can only work if people are perfect. People are NOT perfect so it NEVER works.

Even within the intimate and loving bonds of the nuclear family, if one person does all the work while others do nothing and yet reap the rewards of that labor resentment builds and the family bonds fail.

Language Police?
Who said anything about the language police? He made an observation that confirms what I have noticed. He wasn't suggesting these people or their speech be controlled.

"Ah, 'tis persistence in a good cause and obstinacy in a bad one." Words are often chosen for their emotional content rather than their information content. Like "dumb point" rather than "I don't agree with that"; or "language police".

Thanks everyonesfacts, you have just demonstrated my point.

Steve,
Money is not evil. It has only two functions:

-It is a commonly respected commodity that provides for the exchange products of dissimilar value. (In your case, you can sell your food stamps to someone for the cash it would take to purchase lottery tickets or Birkenstocks.)


-It is a readily recognizable measure of contribution to society. The more recognized value you produce, the more you are rewarded. (ie, the more drugs you sell, the more money you make).

What bothers you is not money, it is your lack of success that would allow you to have some of it.

Dear Wild Wil
Would you stretch into your pockets at all if you didn't have to? That's the real question. The poor and disabled would be at the mercy, and believe me I learned how much of that there is going around, and I fear that they would not survive. Heck you don't want to contribute to their survival. How about the rest of America? What do you really think? They would flounder until they failed to survive. I thought carefully about that last sentence. I didn't want to be too offensive, even if it was about peoples death we were referring to. I know the sensitive, intellectuals don't like to be offended.
They sleep on the streets when there's no room in the shelters, and you comnplain they are destroying the landscape!!! They get a free meal in a nice park, and the city gets after you about drawing together the homeless for a meal. If you could just hear Christ, do you imagine what he would say to you??? Or is he out of the picture this Christmas, again? What DOES Christmas mean to you? Jailing all the homeless? letting the hungry stay hungry? Do you know why Christ was born, what he had to teach, you can't find that in a Christmas tree. Think. It's Christmas for you, too. What are you going to do to make it Chrirstmas in your heart? Run off the homeless? Or feed them? Christmas reminds us of what we want to be all year. Christ's loving principals. Don't trash them with the wrappping paper. It's your Christmas... how will it be?

re: Steve
Money is not evil.


Life is fair too, its people that are greedy, selfish and cruel.

Poor Jeanne Marie Thinking ?
You said ???
Each to his own; you can scowl about having to help these disabled people survive; what's the option, letting them die???
FACTS BELOW .

96 % OF ALL OUR WELFARE GOES TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT =DISABLED "AT ALL unless you call Drunks ,Doper's , Criminals and Baby's having baby's , High SCHOOL drop outs or never getting a job skill as "Disabled"? "We in the Military call a shot up Marine or Shoulder or their families as "DISABLED".Big , Big Difference !

Conservative Compassion
The Philosopher and historian Moses Maimonides writes about the levels of rightousness in giving to others.

The best form of Giving is that which enables the reciever to become self reliant and keep his dignity.

The current welfare state does little to teach self reliance and that is the problem.

When it comes to those who are so SEVERELY handicaped that they will never be self-reliant then I think it is ok for Gov to step in and help where private charity and the ability of their own families falls short.

I applaud Jeanne-marie for what she does. I pray for the children she teaches.

However they are not the issue because they are such a small portion of the public assistance dole.

The Bigger Issue is those that CAN be SELF_RELIANT but don't. Those are ones we need to help be Self-Reliant.

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com and shamless blog plug,
I also have a new blog up about False Perceptions of Republican Views. Just click on my name to view. especially would like rationall feedback from those with differing views.

Paul
If you reread you're first post you will find that
Sowell was in essence calling people who use one of
2 words "irrational".

Is calling someone irrational for using one of 2
specific words not in its own way irrational itself?

I repeat - dumb point.

Your argument not using 2 specific words is what
brands one as irrational

Stedes,
The simple answer is 'Yes', we do let people have the opportunity to fail. I know this sounds callous, and I do not mean to harm anyone. Rather, all charity should come from personal giving (from the money that would be saved in taxes). And more importantly, this form of charity is directly connected to recipient. More importantly, it is appreciated rather than demanded.

"If you build it, they will come"

Give up Jeanne-Marie
Dear Jeanne-Marie,

You would have better luck convincing a group of people that eating turds taste good then pursuading the cast of souless, christian wannabe
ingrates on TH.
Money is love, love is money.

Jeanne-Marie
Americans are the most charitable, giving people on earth. This is an easily verifiable truth. I think your problem may be that the only people who know of your need for help with providing the things your clients/students have come to enjoy is that nobody knows about it, save for your fellow teachers who don't seem to have any extra money. Have you thought of having a bake sale at your church? Even having your pastor/priest/minister let church members know there is a need would probably result in donations to the cause. People are generous and giving to those causes they feel are worthy. We just don't like having our money stolen by politicians to give to THEIR favorite charities.

Excellent, Paul
Paul, excellent post on liberals always crying greed. The liberals are the greedy ones, the ones who decry the productive but want to prey off of them. Another case of projection pure and simple, or should I say simple-minded.

Free Ramos and Compean
Global warming is sphere nonsense

Others taking stuff...
Here in America, a county's family court gave my son, most of my property, and eighteen years of income to my wife and divorce lawyers. I felt hurt and confused. Divorce is unilateral (one person decides) and for little or no reason (no-fault). Live and learn that een in America a person's property is not theirs.

Jeanne marie- a couple of questions
How do you know what those other teachers choose to do with their charitable dollars? Maybe they're giving them to other causes that are every bit as worthy as your parties (in their minds, tho not in yours). My state just decided to give taxpayer moneys to breast cancer research. Should I go on contributing private dollars to that one disease, or put it elsewhere? Who decides that? You?


Who indeed decides who gets the penthouse and who gets the seedy farmhouse? Right now, it's decided by who buys it. Under your system, who would decide? You?

The tragedy of the commons would be if you gave so much of your money to your students that you had to quit and go find a job that paid more. Your students would then not have YOU, and I suspect that would be a tragedy.


Irrational
Thanks again everyonesfacts for demonstrating my point. Sowell said nothing about irrationality.

When people start using emotionally laden words like "irrational" and "greed" they are not interested in discussing 'information' and so they are rationally choosing to move the subject to a different point. Or they are angry and letting their anger get in the way of a rational 'information' discussion and then, yes, in that case they are irrational. In either case an 'information' discussion is a waste of time. Like this one has become - and for that very reason.

Greed
Peter and Paul are each going to give $500 a month in charitable contributions. peter wants to pay it in taxes and let the government decide how to allocate it. Paul wants to give it directly to a charity, or to a need family, or to medical research. Paul is greedy. peter is a saint.

The commons re: Taxes
Manny, Moe and Jack decide to tax themselves to pay for charity for their poor brothers and sisters. Sounds "charitable" until it becomes known that the added tax is "progressive" and applies only to income over $75,000 per year. But the only one earning that much is Jack. To call this "democracy" or "fairness" or "sharing the responsibility" is to stand the meaning of these words on their heads.

When charity is institutionalized, it ceases to be charity. For me to vote to take my brother's property by force and give it to another is tyranny, not charity.

Words
Words contain emotional as well informational content.

When I want to engage someone in a conversation in order to reach understanding and perhaps common ground, I don't use words that will repel them or brand them as "other" or "foreign" or "alien". However, I might use those words if I were unsure of my position or if I despised the person. But then, I wouldn't want to reach understanding in that case, would I?

These words are meant to push people away and label them as "evil" or "not compassionate" or "greedy" so that, in many cases, the user doesn't have to deal with the information behind the actions or ideas that are different from his own.

Also, read the column by Ben Shapiro on anonymity. everyonesfacts, would you really have responded to me in the same way if we were casual acquaintances in an office?

everyonesfacts
Obviously, you're not familiar with the use-mention distinction. (Look it up on Wikipedia.) Leftists who whine about greed are using the word "greed." In talking about their use of the word "greed," Sowell was merely mentioning it and not using it. When he said that those who use the word "greed" are irrational, he was not himself irrational because he was merely mentioning it and not using it.

We need a new word
John Stossel correctly says that it is not charity to take a person's property by force and then give it away. If we want to improve communication on this matter, we have to stop using words like "charity" and "generosity" to describe this forced transfer of property. We need a new word that is more accurate. The best I can come up with is "fleecerosity".

I would love to see a new word emerge that allows us to talk about this activity accurately, as it would greatly improve communication and would stop people from hiding behind the false descriptions of "charity" and "generosity". Any ideas?

Jean Marie ? Survival ?
They would flounder until they failed to survive. I thought carefully about that last sentence. I didn't want to be too offensive, even if it was about peoples death we were referring to. I know the sensitive, intellectuals don't like to be offended.

Since 94.5 % of all American's have jobs and don't "Flounder" while the average American FAMILY INCOME LAST YEAR WAS
$56,671.00 ..2ND HIGHEST IN THE WORLD and 56.6% of all Americans have retirement policies ... So Your Survival point falls on death ears but that is a full time Hobby of the left to point out how bad America "is"... I SAY Bull !
SURVIVAL , THE "O---PRESSED " is a OVER USED TERMS BY SOCIALIST , Who's only worth $000.00 in life is too Guilt ride White productive Americans .
That fact should be a learned behavior pattern not one to be scorned by the left at all since they are far richer than conservatives and give far less to the poor than do Liberals recent studies have all shown published on the net by a VERY LIBERAL COLLEGE .
Christians help the poor far more than do Secularist .A world without Absolutes , rights or wrongs .Ah but they are and many MS Jean Marie .CHOSE OF BEHAVIOR THAT EFFECTS OTHERS IS A STARTER AMONG MANY !

Jeanne-Marie
You have an even worse view of humanity than I do. I believe in the depravity of man. But I also believe that for most people they would be willing to make sure that the poor are taken care of on their own free will...especially if they are of a religous faith like Christianity, where we are commanded to take care of the poor/disabled and to not let them be neglected.

Point blank, charity should be given to those in NEED not those in WANT. There is a difference. Your clients seem to be those in need, but I still want to know where are their families? Our culture has made it so that instead of the families understanding that it is their job to protect and to take care of those in their family that CAN'T take care of themselves, they can just shove them off on you. Because you love them far better and can take care of their needs far better than they ever could because you are employed by the government.

Point blank, what I choose to do MYSELF voluntarily is my business, Jesus said something about not letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing correct? But you are tooting your horn way too much to try and get my sympathy. If you think that you are being overburdened in your job...get a different job and stop telling me why the government should take more of my money and give it to you because you are so altruistic that you deserve more.

Point blank, I studied just as hard as you in a different field because I was looking for a way to provide for myself and my family and then be able to give it away to others as NEEDED not as they Want me to.

Greed
Why do liberals only apply the word "greed" to those who would like to earn more money or to actually keep what they have worked for, rather than to those who wish to confiscate what others have earned or to those who wish to live at the expense of others?

Virtually everyone would like to earn more money. I doubt that Jeanne-Marie would turn down a raise. Does that make her greedy?

I applaud Jeanne-Marie's selfless giving, and as a Christian I believe that everyone has a personal responsibility to help the less fortunate. I am unwilling, however, to take the leap that government should be empowered to take by force that which is not mine in order to fund my moral adventures.

We don't need a new word
because we already have one. It's called legalized extortion.

Homeless and Shelters
One winter I volunteered to cook for a homeless shelter. It was a real eye-opening experience. The people who came to this shelter felt entitled to their bed and their meal, even though they all appeared to be able-bodied. They did not exhibit any sense of gratitude that I could see. So though I'm certain there are people who cannot take care of themselves and wind up sleeping on the street for lack of a better option, it is my experience and observation that the great majority of the "homeless" are so because they choose to be, and they choose to be because they are content to live off the largess of others. This too illustrates the point that without value, people will take more than they need.

Rewarded behavior get repeated. If people are rewarded for indolence, they continue to be indolent.

Spoken like a true communist (Part 1)
Jeanne-marie writes:

"Your system of private property only echoes what the earliest Americans did when they came to America: steal the land from the natives and then parcel it out among themselves. And they were our forefathers, ..."

The "forefathers" did not "steal" their land from the aboriginals. The aboriginals never claimed to own the land. They merely used it. The forefathers used it differently. And more efficiently. Because of their superior use of the land the society of the forefathers thrived and grew in wildly greater proportion to that which was propagated by the outdated methodology of the aboriginals.

Today's liberals applaud the nobility of the chiefs of aboriginal tribes by noting that they (allegedly) did not eat until every widow and orphan in the tribe was fed. They ignore the reality that an aboriginal became chief of his tribe by either killing the current chief in violent, personal combat or by inheriting it. I guess killing for wealth and power and/or inheriting it is OK for aboriginals but not for white men.

Liberals whine and complain that Europeans brought new diseases to the New World that the immune systems of the aboriginals were not equipped to fight. They ignore the fact that more ethnic Europeans have died from lung cancer resulting from tobacco, which was unknown to Europeans until "given" to them by the aborginals of the New World, than all of the aboriginals who have died from these European-induced diseases combined.

Altruism is the greatest evil.

For some people it is not enough for others to donate time and money. Some people believe that everyone should be forced to donate their time and money.

This belief has led some people to lobby the government to tax its citizens and then give that money away to numerous special interests.

Instead of a society where people take personal responsibility for their own well being, we have created a society where citizens fight each other over who can manipulate our government to use force against our fellow citizens.

Jeanne Marie
Very dear friends of ours have a downs child. He is 11 and still requires speech therapy. Our friends could not pay for a private speech therapists so they had to enroll him in public school as a special needs child in order to get a therepist. Eli (the child) must attend public school for at least 3 days a week, the money has been alocated to provide an assistant for him, to get him from class to class. The school has already recieved the money for his education from the state. The mother arriving at school (early to just observe Eli's class) one day frind Eli on the sidewalk outside of the school. No one knew that he had wondered off. When she hit the roof with the principle--she was told that they didn't "feel" that Eli needed the assistant (they kept the money though) and they assigned a third grade student to watch him! When the mother insisted that Eli have an assistant, and requested a female, she came to school to find Eli be carted around by some man that had not bathed and was clearly just hired off the street.
If Eli's parents could keep their tax money would they be able to pay for a private therapist--YES! Would Eli have wandered away from a private therapists office and been found on the sidewalk? NO! Would Eli have been exposed to a potentially dangerous stranger as an asisstant?--NO! Would the get to keep money that they were clearly not spending on his education?--NO! Bottom line--the government doesn't "help" anyone, they force them to take inferior services in the guise of "helping them survive".

stedes writes: Government Giving is
Good Economics

Do we invest in people and do a better job of developing social programs integrating them into society as consumers and contributors, or do we live with crime.
Which is the better ROI?
-------------------------------

Not true. Most crime is perpetrated by people on government assistance and social programs - NOT working people. Giving more aid to them is merely financing their crime sprees, since they don't have to work to survive.

Reducing aid to these "needy" recipients would drastically reduce their ability to roam the streets looking for trouble, because they'd have to get a job to survive, and they'd be too tired to go out robbing people all night, just like the rest of us.
------------------------
Also, Jeanne-marie, Really! Can you tell us how great you are a few more times? How much do you give again, I've forgotten since the last half dozen times you reported your unimaginable generosity?

The fact that you moan about how great and generous you are, does not make you more generous than anyone else, it just makes you more obnoxious. Plenty of people give, and many give more than they should - but that's their choice. If you're giving more than you can afford, that's your cue to stop giving so much - not to start whining louder about how no one else will give you their money so you can give less.

One supposes these handicapped individuals you're so selflessly giving pizza parties to did not materialize out of thin air, so the costs associated with their care should be coming from those who brought them into the world - NOT your co-workers. If they decline to provide money for pizza parties, perhaps they object to spending their hard earned money on things that YOU find important, but they don't.


Family
Why isn't family ever considered by the supporters of government "charity" to be an option for helping the disadvantaged? Maybe it's because we can't define it anymore. If the family isn't interested enough to help ... what does that tell you?

A Few Answers
deeteegt;
You No one answered your three questions directly, so I will:

>Who owns the air you are breathing???<
I own the air that enters MY lungs. No more, no less.

>Who owns the water seeping into your yard after a rainstorm???<
I do. If unbranded/tatooed livestock comes onto my property, I own it by law. (I don't know how it is in your part of the world)

>Who owns the minerals beneath your home???<
I do. I own MINERAL RIGHTS for my property. When you buy a piece of land MAKE SURE that you are also buying the MINERAL RIGHTS. (No charge for the leagal/ecconomic advice)

treasonous repugs;

>what if one person owns all the land makes the others pay him to grow what he tells them to. this is the republican freedom<
No, that is called "creating jobs". I assume that you would know this, unless you are independantly wealthy.

>-have you ever heard of indigenous peoples?<
Yes. And since I was BORN HERE, I happen to be "an indigenous person". But perhaps you mean "the natives"? The fact is, they took the land from those who didn't DEFEND it well. And the people who they took it from had taken it from the people who didn't defend it well. And the people who came bofore them......

Old Age Charity
There is a whole legal industry organized around the transfer of aged parent's resources to their children so that the parents can qualify to be taken care of with government funds.

This is another example of "The Tragedy of the Commons".

Despicable!! Or is that being too judgmental?

Spoken like a true communist (Part 2)
"... the oldest and richest families in America, whose decendenta live on the billions that grew from those parcels of land, who inherit their income which should be properly taxed as the income it is."

Only someone who presumes that the very "common" ownership of everything that Stossel decries as a virtue by default would presume to tax inherited wealth; wealth that in today's America is actually what is left after the benefactor's wealth has already been taxed once (or twice).

The self-importing arrogance that virtually steams off of Jeanne-marie's post would be too much to stomach even if it wasn't presuming and promoting a system (common ownership of property) that has a perfect record of failing miserably and catastrophically every time it has been tried.

Or are 100 million state-sponsored murders of citizens not enough misery for liberals?

Steve the lib gets it wrong again..
He says: "Money dehumanizes people, which is why it has been described as the root of all evil."

No, money is not the root of all evil. The LOVE of money is the root of all evil. I somewhat agree with your position about being enslaved to things that we possess, but I think you are taking a person concern about caring for carpet a bit too far.

Should we not do our best to care for that which have been given stewardship over. His concern may be financially motivated. His concern could be that if the carpet gets damaged and needs replacing, he would have less discretionary money around to give to charity.

Then again, if he weren't so selfish, he could live under a bridge and give all his money to charity. The selfish turd.

The Greatest Handicap in LIfe :
The Greatest Handicap in LIfe "IS" to be lead by the left or (taught )how to be pissed off because you can't buy Drug's , Beer or wine with food stamps or Wick money !
And Your free or sidsidized housing is not clean and in a bad neighborhood and they ain't paying you enough so you can sit on your lazy arse .
THAT IS TRUE MODERN DAY SLAVERY Whipped TO DEATH by the left while the disenfranchised all smile knowing no better .
The left job is too see to it's continued pattern of SAD behavior and paying for it by productive Americans .

One of the Great errosions of Property
Rights was Roe v. Wade.

Forget Abortion!

Row v. Wade was BAD law because it codified the conversion of our property rights into privacy rights and opened the door to these insane proposals like being forced out of your house when a bald eagle builds a nest within a mile of your home.


Jeanne Marie
Read my little story, then tell me which is the moral way of doing things.

Every Christmas we have a local newspaper that sponsors a food and gift drive for the poor. They sedn out people to interview families to see who is needy. Then on the week of Christmas I volunteer to deliver the food and gifts that have been collected over a 30 day period. The warehouse used is stocked to the ceiling with donated items. Anyway, one of my deliveries was to a single Mom who had 3 children. When I arrived the Mom was taking food and wrapped presents out of her brand new SUV. At first it did not hit me, but once inside her well furnished home I saw 3 kids on the couch playing the latest video games on a huge plasma, dressed in expensive clothing and $100 dollar sneakers. The Mom was also covered in high end clothing and jewelry. I was about to set down the first of many boxes I was supposed to deliver when I decided NO. I quickly told the woman I was delivering to the wrong house and started back out to my truck. She gave me hell all the way out to my truck, but I stood my ground. When I got back to the warehouse I told the project manager about my experience and he then gave me another family to deliver the items to.

Here's the problem... would you rather give aid to people that really need it, or give to anyone that wants it?

If the government had been in charge of this program, I would have been forced to leave all the food and gifts with this family that did not need it. Because this was a private charity function, we were able to make the call and deliver to a family that was truly in need.

Before these people start bashing you
Con4red...just to let these outraged dogooders know, if the mom was able to provide those materieal goods for herself and her children through either family or other charitable means, she did not need that charity to give her anymore. She needed to be charitable and allow another family that may not have the ability to utilize the resources that she had available to her. Yes it was a judgement call, but it was a good judgement call. She did not need those items as much as another family did. What she was doing was the true definition of Greed...

Paul + JFP
T. Sowell on Tuesday wrote: "When people have to resort to words like "greed" or "exploitation," it is hopeless to try to have a rational discussion with them."

Yes, he obviously did imply that people who use
2 words are "irrational" at least in the way that
most separates us from the apes.

"Also, read the column by Ben Shapiro on anonymity. everyonesfacts, would you really have responded to me in the same way if we were casual acquaintances in an office?"

Yes. I suffer foolish ideas lightly.

JFP - my point wasn't that Sowell's use of the
words made him irrational but that the idea of
labeling any PERSON who uses the words as
irrational is in its own way irrational.

Think of it as someone saying that
"When people have to resort to words like
"corporate welfare" or "privatization," it is hopeless to try to have a rational discussion with them." This is rational how?


"Will Work For Food"
We've seen these signs all over the place, haven't we? It has been discovered (By people who REALLY care) that a lot of these jokers just want MONEY handed to them.
One of these bums was posted near the mall where I worked at a resurant. I offered to take him to my place of business because we always needed people and at the very least, free meals were part of the job benefits. He laughed out loud!
A friend of mine followed another "will work..." bums and saw him get into his LATE MODEL LEXUS! A LEXUS!

Jeanne-Marie
You Said "They sleep on the streets when there's no room in the shelters, and you comnplain they are destroying the landscape!!!"
I say -- you are complaning about some peoples response and I am wondering why you are not providing these people with a place to stay of your own volition. You claim to have a small house, but since you such a better person than me don't you think that it would look even better on your resume if you gave one of these people on the street your couch? Why not?

You said "They get a free meal in a nice park, and the city gets after you about drawing together the homeless for a meal."
I say -- why in the world don't you invite this person into your home and feed them instead of making them eat the meal outside in a nice park? They are still outside and it it is still cold.

Sorry, but your whining about all that you are donig really turns my stomach. I do just as much as you do but I use different avenues and I DON'T BRAG ABOUT THE DETAILS!!!

Stossel's Libertarian wish for utopia
The taxes that citizens pay for a civilized society are their "dues". Just like if you joined a country club, you pay dues.

The wealthier citizens use the SEC, FTC, court systems, the banking system and other common resources more, so they, rightly, pay higher dues.

Privatization without regulations leads to monopolies. Stossel, and other posters, gave examples of how private ownership of land, water, etc would lead to better utilization of the resources. But, we've all seen what happens when products/services are owned by a select few.

Would Stossel allow for one person or corporation to own all the Elephants, or own all the fish in the water, or own all the forests? How about the radio and TV waves?

To those that think privatization of the freeways and roads would be beneficial, then you obviously have not tried to fly to a small town. The airlines do not have flights to small towns because they can't make a profit. So, if we privatize the roadways, then would you expect to be able to drive to your grandma's house if she lived in the country?

Even conservatives know that the idea of a "free market" is a myth. How many times did the "conservative" congress and White House bail out corporations, like the airlines.

Pres. Bush is not incompetent
And, for those liberals that are dismayed by Pres. Bush's incompetence, think again. He knows exactly what he's doing. He wants the government to be as non-functioning as possible so that his political base will be able to scream "See, we told you the govt can't do anything right."

Pres. Bush is for vouchers, so why would he want public education to succeed?
Pres. Bush is for the privatization of FEMA, so why would he want it to be effective?

Con4fred
That woman was certainly greedy.

Con men (and women) have been around for thousands of years.

Greenhornet
Many years ago I was working downtown in a major urban area. In the doorway of the adjacent building was a man wearing very worn clothing bearing a cardboard sign that said, "Please Help Me I'm Hungry." I felt sorry for this man, so that day when I went to get lunch I bought two sandwiches (the second one cost me what I would have spent on my afternoon snack), one for me and one for him. When I presented him with the sandwich, he looked at me like I had two heads. Later that evening I saw him and another similarly dressed man comparing that day's take. They each had roll of cash that looked like what I took home in a month. I have ever since ignored panhandlers. I often tell myself "don't feed the bears."

Words frame the debate.
At 7:48am, Steve wrote: "Only those who take too much originally have the wherewithal to "give back." They are not really "giving" anything, except what they took previously."

The whole point a previous poster was making about using the term "greedy" is illustrated here by Steve. Notice the word "take" in his missive? You see, anyone who has more didn't earn it through getting a good education and working hard. They were greedy and "took" more than they needed.

So, I make this proposal: Let every hard working American taxpayer stage a one week sick-out. Don't go to work, don't shop, heck, don't even get out of bed for just one week. I'll bet all the lazy "Steve's" in world will be begging us to get greedy again so they can get their "free" stuff from Uncle Sam.

John Stossel wrote:
"...Property equals responsibility equals prosperity."

The more an individual prospers, the more they can willingly share with people who actually need a helping hand; when people prosper and share, there is true compassion and hope.

John Stossel wrote: "...But when government takes our money by force and gives it to others, that's not sharing."

When the government forcefully takes our money and gives to others, it only creates resentment.

Excellent article.

Jeanne Marie
You mentioned you are going on a holiday. Are you taking your 3 legged, one-eyed, deaf dog, too?

Jeanne-Marie on Sharing by Force
If you ask someone for money and they say no, YOU DO NOT THEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE THAT MONEY FROM THEM BY FORCE.

If a guy on the street asks you for a dollar and you refuse, do you think it's okay for him to steal your purse?

If your son wants his friend's iPod and the friend won't "share" with him, does your son have the right to knock him in the head and take it away from him?

I understand that you wish you could do a lot more for the people you help -- and that you are frustrated that other people do not share your commitment. I tried to get some of the hundred or so girls who seem to give birth here every nine months and ten minutes to donate one of the outfits their new babies got and grew out of to a shelter for teenagers and their babies, and got a resounding silence. THIS DID NOT GIVE ME THE RIGHT TO GO TO THEIR HOMES AND STEAL THESE ITEMS, NO MATTER HOW MUCH I THINK THE NEKKID BABIES DESERVE THEM.

You have the right to use every kind of reason and persuasion to support your charity of choice. You do NOT have the right to use force.

Syler appears to have
BDS, Bush Derangement Syndrome. So, which is it, Syler? Is Bush so stupid that Cheney is the real president or is he cagey like a fox? Is he so ignorant that can't even pronounce nookular, or is he part of what Hillary described as some vast, right wing conspiracy?

You guys crack me. You can't make up your mind whether Bush is some knuckle dragging baffoon that can't tie his own shoes or the mastermind behind some highly techinical, well conceived and planned conservative plot.

The lunacy. Sheesh!

Annoy a liberal, point out how ignorant their positions really are.

John Stossel
I've always been amazed that John Stossel works for a major TV network! His politics seem to be 180 degrees to most of the industry. I guess they felt that since they believe in racial quotas, they also should include an ideological quota. It's good to have someone with common sense out there exposing the hypocrisy of the left; especially when he works right alongside of them.

Americans are the richest, most generous
people on the planet. It is no coincidence that we also have the most affluent, most demanding, most ungrateful poor of any country.

If you want more of something, subsidize it.

Americans are the richest, most generous
people on the planet. It is no coincidence that we also have the wealthiest, demanding, and ungrateful 'poor' people on the planet.

If you want more of anything, subsidize it.

Galltegfa ...
While I've never personally experienced that which you describe, one of my favorite TV moments came from the old sitcom, Barney Miller, which portrayed it perfectly.

A man, dressed in ragged attire, was arrested for panhandling and his wife was called. When his wife arrived at the precinct, she was very elegantly dressed with diamonds and a mink coat. She was shocked to see her husband in rags. Turns out that he lost his job a few years ago and by happenstance found he could still support his luxurious lifestyle by begging for money.

The really funny moment came when the character Dietrich said, "Ahh, begging. The worlds oldest profession."

Someone replied by stating that they thought the worlds oldest profession was prostitution, Dietrich replied, "Hey, someone had to ask for it."

Jeanne-marie writes:
"Dear Wild Wil
Would you stretch into your pockets at all if you didn't have to? That's the real question."

And the real answer, and the point of all of this exchange is: It's really none of your business, Jeanne-marie, whether we will or not!

You do your thing, I'll do mine. And please, do yours on your own dime.

You get more of what you pay for
My letter from years ago. I figure there is no reason to reinvent what I already said. Some thing change, but most remain the same, almost.

=========
*Apr 10, 1993 The Desert Sun

War on proverty: Deficit reduction,

• In the past decade, or thereabouts, liberals in Congress have spent about $1 trillion for a war on poverty, and now we have more poverty, more murder, more violence, more drug use, a reduction in the standard of living, less education and less of all the positive family values that were so abhorrent to liberals during the recent election.

On the other hand, conservative administrations have spent about $1 trillion for defense and we have reaped “peace in our time,” the end of the Cold War, most likely no World War III in our lifetime, or at least until another large scale leftist-liberal government raises its ugly head.

=====

or a mismanaged Repub government

---
Remember the budget was balanced by Newt, not by Bill. If you don't believe that, read the Constitution and see who is responsible for our money.


Jeanne Marie
First off, as a gazillion people have already pointed out, there's a difference between theft and sharing.

Second - I doubt that anybody on this forum hates the disabled or wants to let them die, but aid to the disabled makes up a tiny minority of government spending and has zero relevance to Stossel's column, IMO. I also taught special education, though now I'm a librarian. I spent my own money on my classroom and students, and that was my choice. I didn't whinge on about it all over the place, hoping to guilt-trip my fellow teachers into doing the same. And I certainly didn't spend $300 a month or even close. What kind of lesson is that teaching your kids, anyway - that money buys happiness? That you can't be effective in the classroom without frills and extras? Please. I knew teachers of 20+ years' experience who managed miracles with their kids with determination and love.

And every time I've seen you post in any Townhall discussion, you make a point of mentioning your Master's degree in education. Schools of education are the b*****d stepchild of academia - their standards are pathetically low compared to 'real' academic disciplines. I have dual undergraduate degrees - one in education, one in history. My history degree required serious research, writing and study. My education degree required me to make bulletin boards and prove I could thread a movie projector. Get over yourself.

I go to church too. The Bible I read says quite a lot about giving to the poor. It says nothing about government being the mechanism through which that giving should occur. In fact, I'd argue that true Christian charity cannot be accomplished through government as we should be more involved in our giving than noting how much tax is withheld from our pay.

Becky
Precisely, "Render unto Caesar...."

Charity
Over 60 years ago Friederich Hayek wrote: “What our generation is in danger of forgetting is not only that morals are of necessity a phenomenon of individual conduct but also that they can exist only in the sphere in which the individual is free to decide for himself and is called upon voluntarily to sacrifice personal advantage to the observance of a moral rule. Outside the sphere of individual responsibility there is neither goodness nor badness, neither opportunity for moral merit nor the chance for proving one’s conviction by sacrificing one’s desires to what one thinks right. Only where we ourselves are responsible for our own interests and are free to sacrifice them has our decision moral value. We are neither entitled to be unselfish at someone else’s expense nor is there any merit in being unselfish if we have no choice. The members of a society who are made to do the good thing have no title to praise.”

Another writer observed that when Jesus was presented with people who were sick, he didn’t send his muscular henchmen out into the byways to rob unsuspecting passersby in order to buy medicine, he healed them. And when the Good Samaritan encountered the man who fell among thieves, he didn’t seek out the nearest Centurian garrison to initiate a search for them, he didn’t petition the Sanhedrin to establish inns for indigent care, he didn’t organize the locals into a committee to study the problem of roving robber bands. As the scripture relates, “he had compassion on him, and went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.”

Enough said.

Audir10 -- on Sharing --
"Or when you say to your secretary *Want to go out for coffee? My treat!*"

Haven't you been keep up with the times?

That's not sharing -- that's Sexual Harassment!

FROG, what's your answer?
FROG asks,
"Is Bush so stupid that Cheney is the real president or is he cagey like a fox?"

Are you asking me because you haven't been able to figure it out?

I absolutely used to think that Pres. Bush was just incompetent, but now I totally understand why FEMA and "No Child Left Behind" are utter failures. Pres. Bush has no reason to make these programs, or any other social program, work because that would prove his conservative thinking is flawed.

What's your explanation for Pres. Bush's failures?

Property Rights are Not OVERRATED !
A obvious socialist Liberal wrote earlier.

There are currently many areas of dispute when it comes to ownership and how to account for it.

I think the term is called legal Property Rights , Fence Lines , Boundaries and of course War since Mankind begin if you want to take or steal them .
Now Liberal Courts hand out those Legal Thief orders sadly on a regular bases .
The World Court without borders is the Motto of the Left and the 3RD World who rule against America and Israel more than the UN does here in America ....actually about 91 % of the time .
Now even the Home Stead rights act are being taken from many of us here in VA and other states as well .

Syler
I originally asked the question because people on the left would make either assertion at any given time depending on the situation they were trying to justify.

My eplanation for Bush's failures? I really wanted to believe he was a Compassionate Conservative, or what I believe to be a Christian libertarian. I have found his brand of conservatism very different from my own. While I don't think him to be the bafoon some have made him out to be, I just don't think he has the forward thinking skills and intelligence to be the President.

However, knowing what I know now, I would still vote for Bush over virtually any Democrat the left would see fit to prop up. One of the few exceptions would be Lieberman.

Jeanne-Marie...
...it seems to me you are being played for a sap by your colleagues. I can't see why you would personally drop $3600 a year in extracurricular goodies for your students if you weren't getting some kind of psychic or emotional gratification from it. I am guessing you get to 'feel good' about yourself, condemn or at least talk trash about your stingy colleagues and maybe score some brownie points with God by your ' selfless' actions. I am also guessing your colleagues are quite content to let you do your 'little red hen' thing. I imagine they sort of shake their heads and chuckle when you are not around - but hey - she seems to like doing it so more power to her.

If your program really needs another $3600 per year to fund the goodies why not ask your local Kiwanis or Rotary Club (or similar - not trying to leave other clubs out) for funding. They do this all the time out of charity and as part of their missions. You don't HAVE to be St. Jeanne-Marie, you just WANT to be her.

Frog, etc
Part of the reason that Mr. Stossel says he prefers Charity to government hand-outs is because it better accomodates his "love of money." He sets what he should "give," rather than what is "needed." Like the old saw, "a republican is someone who will throw a five foot line to someone drowing ten feet away."

Liberals are similary incompetent, since they can only throw a ten foot rope five feet away. Either way, the person who they both pushed overboard will drown, and they will both argue about the rope rather than taking responsibility for their part in the event.

We are all part of the economy. If there is a divide in wealth, etc., it is because of something we are all doing. These financial crises are man-made phenomenons. In fact, they are mathematical phenomenons, too. Wealth creates poverty. But everything originates from ideas, of which Mr. Stossel doesn't seem to understandstand. A vice cannot be a virtue.

http://www.behappyandfree.com

FROG, so what is he?
FROG, you still didn't answer your own question.

"Is Bush so stupid that Cheney is the real president or is he cagey like a fox?"

Bush is willing to shell out billions to corporations that are failing, but will veto a bill that would provide healthcare for uninsured children.

Do you know of any conservative candidate that would be willing to stop ALL corporate subsidies? And, before you say "Ron Paul", remember that he has NEVER voted against oil subsidies.

To all of you willing
to take on Jeanne-Marie's diatribe...good work!I do believe that posters may be able to trip her up with some of her claims if the back and forth dialogues were to continue. Her postings eerily remind me of another TH poster, "animalgirlisback."

Unfortunately, I do not believe Jeanne-Marie will comprehend ONE word of what has been posted back to her because she is too busy applauding herself, living in her delusional "I'm better than you" world.

Jeanne-Marie, it is all about choices. None of them make you better than anyone else, no matter how you twist it in your mind. Run the your nearest library or used book shop and get Mona Charen's book, "Do-Gooders: How Liberals Hurt Those They Claim to Help."


jeanne-marie,
run "to" not "the"

Stop All Corporate Subsidies
Huckabee and Tancredo have endorsed the FairTax. The FairTax would abolish all corporate taxes (along with federal income taxes and withholding taxes). Since subsidies are largely a function of manipulating the tax code, bestowing favors on some and punishing others, the FairTax will effectively end subsidies to corporations. So, if you're looking for conservatives who would end corporate subsidies, they're out there, just ask who's behind the FairTax.

Liberal Government
What makes you think that lawmakers and bureaucrats are any more "compassionate" than the average American?

Is anyone more careful with other people's money than they are their own?

Why do liberals trust lawmakers when they don't trust the average American to do the right thing?

Do they just have so much already invested in government and socialist thinking that they can't see that the prosperity they are enjoying is the result of the very policies they oppose?

If everyonesfacts is still reading - this is what Sowell meant when he said that discussion with this mindset is a waste of time.

Oh, I just found my Liberal Revised Approved Edition of the Bible and it does say: "Go, and steal all you can steal from everyone else and give to the poor and follow me." I guess that's where they get it from, afterall!

Steve, syler, and Paul
Steve, sorry man, but your last post is about as solid as Sarte's Being and Nothingness. Which is to say there are some random nebulous thoughts floating around, but nothing concrete.

Syler, I didn't answer that direct question, however I did give you my thoughts. If you read my original post, you should be able to see that the question was rhetorical based on statements by those on the left. Personally, I never presumed either of those polar opposite points.

Paul, liberals don't trust all lawmakers. They only trust liberal ones. Kinda like they now trust the new NIE reports stating that Iran ceased it's nuclear bomb ambitions back in 2003. Of course Bush is saber rattling. That's his warmongering nature, right?

disabled?
Hello! Did I miss something here? Did Mr. Stossel somehow say that disabled people were property of the public? I'm confused by how Jeanne-Marie brings up the topic of those who need help getting through this life. Did Mr. Stossel somehow say that those less-able should be excluded from libraries? Not that responding on-topic is a requirement around here, but at least we who read through the comments won't wonder if someone is responding to the wrong article!

Jeanne-Marie is Right
Because from the liberal point of view everyone is disabled. That is why they support abortion, they know that fetus is just another miserable defective human like all the rest and it would really be better of being put out of it's misery. The ones that escape alive have to be cared for their whole lives because they are not competent to care for themselves. Humans are just poor dumb pathetic creatures. It is no wonder liberals come off as so unhappy, except of course when things are going badly and then they are positively giddy. Probably because when things go bad it proves they are right about life.

frog
Frog, there is only so much I can fit in a quick post. The ideas are only "nebulous" in your head. I have the math worked out: Both sides are wrong.

Taxes, profits and donations are all the same thing: cost-shifting. (Or perhaps more accurately, number-shifting.) Why do we need to shift "numbers?"

In general, people argue that the numbers should be shifted to them (and in their favor, of course,) without questioning where the numbers originated.

Call it a domino effect, a vicious circle, etc., it doesn't matter what you call it, but we are all a part of the cycle. Until people want to recognize that they are part of the problem, then they cannot be part of the solution.

Change must always start with oneself. Liberty comes from repentence, not from the law or from having enough money/property. Those things are just dust in the wind.

........................................

If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.
- Lao-Tzu

For AudiR10
Basically, the steal-through-tax-then-handout is a lot like a rationalisation of many Hindus--who deposit a percentage of ill-gotten (through bribes, theft or armed robbery) proceeds in the offering boxes of temples and then let the temples do some piffling charitable work with these. Indicates a seared conscience, for which it is used as palliative.

Ron Paul 2008
Learn more in just 30 seconds
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/snippets/101/

more detailed RP info
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIivoqLbeeg

Please join us in supporting RP on Dec 16 http://www.teatparty07.com

Thank you John Stossels for bringing a common sense approach to journalism

Save our Constitution:Paul! Oh Pa-lease!
.


The "Fair Tax"
Just heard today: The Wall Street Journal hates the idea.

So does Bob Brinker of Money Talk.

Better to just cut taxes rather than experiment with an idea that could wind up as a fiasco!

Socialism vs Charity/support of Disabled
I would like to see more good works undertaken by churches and benevolent societies, although I would not want to see mentally retarded adults neglected if enough help were not available by that route. That being said, the same liberal cluster of idealogies that demands that the public pay for the upkeep of the mentally disabled also recommends identifying and aborting the retarded baby before he is born. Interesting paradox of compassion.

A perhaps related issue is that it seems that there is a tendency to up the ante (sp?) on caring for dependents: children, pets, and disabled children and adults, so that the cost becomes so staggering that undertaking their care or even existence becomes a staggering burden or cause for resentment (perhaps encouraging the abortion solution). In San Francisco, Michaelangelo Park, a park/playground had been built with funds raised by the neighborhood, which then applied to the city for help in putting in a restroom. The park committee was then told that it could not have a restroom unless the park were equipped with a device to lower wheelchairs into the sunken sandbox, etc.. The park was in the Russian Hill area, on a very steep hill (anyone ever seen Lombard, the crookedest street? This was parallel to it). If I were dealing with a wheelchair, I would prefer to navigate on more level ground. If I had a child in a wheelchair or if I were in a wheelchair and had a child to take care of, I'm sure I would appreciate inclusion, but it needs to be applied with a bit of common sense. So, the moral of the story is, it's not enough to go above and beyond the normal by raising money to put in a park and playground. You also have to be willing to raise the money for the restroom and the handicapped features. Not out of the goodness of your heart, but because the government imposes it upon you.

Too much compassion scares me
Obviously not in my private life. But I get real nervous when people hang their public policy on compassion. Why?

- Compassion leads to pity
- Pity leads to self pity
- Self pity leads to victimhood

Victimhood (on a grand scale) has led to some of the worst examples of human tragedy ever recorded in human history. Nazi Germany and "the Proletariat" represent some of the most notorious victims in recent history. Victimhood is how horrors like genocide and terrorism are rationalized.

Compassion is a virtue when applied to your personal life, but can be downright horrifying when applied to public policy.

Mean Mother --
"I would like to see more good works undertaken by churches and benevolent societies,"

You probably would, if the government didn't take it upon itself to supplant these groups with various forms of welfare and entitlements.

Many people aren't as charitable as they might be otherwise, their feeling being that they already pay taxes for the government to take care of everybody. This is especially true among liberals who feel that the government is *supposed* to be taking care of everybody.

Unca Alby
Your Dec 5 (2:16 PM) comment was sexist! What makes you think the secretary was a woman?

Just another form of theft
quote from another poster.

When charity is institutionalized, it ceases to be charity. For me to vote to take my brother's property by force and give it to another is tyranny, not charity.

end quote

When a person steals from you and gives it to someone else it is called theft.

When a government does the same thing it is called a social program.

Is there really a difference?


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