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Wednesday, November 21, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Tragedy of the Commons
by John Stossel
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Every year around this time, schoolchildren are taught about that wonderful day when Pilgrims and Native Americans shared the fruits of the harvest. "Isn't sharing wonderful?" say the teachers.

They miss the point.

Because of sharing, the first Thanksgiving in 1623 almost didn't happen.

The failure of Soviet communism is only the latest demonstration that freedom and property rights, not sharing, are essential to prosperity. The earliest European settlers in America had a dramatic demonstration of that lesson, but few people today know it.

When the Pilgrims first settled the Plymouth Colony, they organized their farm economy along communal lines. The goal was to share everything equally, work and produce.

They nearly all starved.

Why? When people can get the same return with a small amount of effort as with a large amount, most people will make little effort. Plymouth settlers faked illness rather than working the common property. Some even stole, despite their Puritan convictions. Total production was too meager to support the population, and famine resulted. Some ate rats, dogs, horses and cats. This went on for two years.

"So as it well appeared that famine must still ensue the next year also, if not some way prevented," wrote Gov. William Bradford in his diary. The colonists, he said, "began to think how they might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better crop than they had done, that they might not still thus languish in misery. At length after much debate of things, [I] (with the advice of the chiefest among them) gave way that they should set corn every man for his own particular, and in that regard trust to themselves. And so assigned to every family a parcel of land."

The people of Plymouth moved from socialism to private farming. The results were dramatic.

"This had very good success," Bradford wrote, "for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been. By this time harvest was come, and instead of famine, now God gave them plenty, and the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the hearts of many. "

Because of the change, the first Thanksgiving could be held in November 1623.

What Plymouth suffered under communalism was what economists today call the tragedy of the commons. But the problem has been known since ancient Greece. As Aristotle noted, "That which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it."

When action is divorced from consequences, no one is happy with the ultimate outcome. If individuals can take from a common pot regardless of how much they put in it, each person has an incentive to be a free rider, to do as little as possible and take as much as possible because what one fails to take will be taken by someone else. Soon, the pot is empty and will not be refilled -- a bad situation even for the earlier takers.

What private property does -- as the Pilgrims discovered -- is connect effort to reward, creating an incentive for people to produce far more. Then, if there's a free market, people will trade their surpluses to others for the things they lack. Mutual exchange for mutual benefit makes the community richer.

Secure property rights are the key. When producers know that their future products are safe from confiscation, they will take risks and invest. But when they fear they will be deprived of the fruits of their labor, they will do as little as possible.

That's the lost lesson of Thanksgiving.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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The Supremes
SCOTUS should have read this little treatise before deciding Kelo.

Gee, do you think Hillary's philosophy might be in error?

Article shows how old Stossel is.
Students now are taught that Thanksgiving Day should be a 'day of mourning' because of all the horrible things the white man did to the natives and the blacks and ....

As for HRC - she is wrong in each and EVERY particular. Shame she can't see past "her vision!" At the least, she's a socialist - at worst a communist. It's a shame, cause she would have made a decent president, IF she had different principles.

Have to admit this story took me by surprise. I can't remember hearing about it before. Perhaps because even JS labels it 'an economic lesson.' THANK YOU!

haha
and god said "thou shalt not share, and unions are creations of the devil".
i used this earlier and liked it so much i tried it again.

stossel
"When the Pilgrims first settled the Plymouth Colony, they organized their farm economy along communal lines. The goal was to share everything equally, work and produce.

They nearly all starved."


-and historians agree that their problem was working together. it wasn't until old man jones incorporated himself and starting hoarding food until people finally ate.
you are complete and total liar.

I won't hold my breath...
...until that's taught in today's public schools!

TR writes
"-and historians agree that their problem was working together. it wasn't until old man jones incorporated himself and starting hoarding food until people finally ate.
you are complete and total liar."

Google the name Gov. William Bradford and you'll find many, many references that confirm Stossel's quotes from Bradford's diary. Can you be specific as to what you accuse him of lying about?

John
This is not what the lefties promulgate as "the tragedy of the commons". They push the over use of finite resources that are shared. In other words, the tragedy is some kind of environmental degradation.

the real tragedy of the commons
For thousands of years before the coming of the Europeans, Native Americans survived by using the the land and its resources communally. The Pilgrims were able to survive their first winter because of the generosity of the Wampanoag and their chief Massasoit. The "freedom" and "property rights" which Stossel connects to prosperity were taken from the indians. It took a generation for Massasoit's son, Metacomet (also known to the English as King Philip) to decide that to save his people and their lands, he had to drive the colonist back into the sea. His efforts were heroic, but too little and too late. The power and demographic balance had radically shifted. The real tragedy of the commons for the indians was the destruction of the forest, the driving away of the game, the division of the land into private property and destruction of all things needed to survive. Did the colonist created something superior to what they had destroyed? It depends upon whose "freedom" and "property rights" one is talking about. CZ.

Obvious
I've heard this story many times and the lesson and principle is so obvious it boggles the mind that some just don't get it. Instead, along comes Marx and promotes his philosophy of envy and tens, even hundreds, of millions suffered beyond imagining.

And the idiot leftists STILL don't get it.

It's a brain wiring problem, I'm convinced.


Isn't it wonderful
that we have the Communist trolls come on here to entertain us with their hilarious antics and wise sayings?

No different than
in China in Mao's time: Famine and starvations were common occurences under collective farming systems, especially during the cultural revolution. Then when the economy opened up in 1970 (= private cultivation), lo and behold, in a scant 30 years, China went from having a great many dying from starvation to todays' population with emerging weight problems. (Just see all the weight reduction ads on Chinese TV for the last 5 years.)

The farm output success of China completely over-turned the doomsday sayers (zero population growth worriers) of the 70's.

Many thanks to John for this untold story.

Legal immigrant.

Disabled Adults
Dear Mr. Stossel,

When first reading your column, I thought you were not considering the needs of the disabled adults, who take from Social Security to survive without giving to the "pot". I have a master's degree in special education and am an instructor for the local college teaching adult clients with varrying physical and mental challenges at a center which provides them an opportunity to work and get education in the same place.

These clients make about $.05-.10 an hour doing simple piece work for about 4 hours, and have 2 hours of education, all in one day. As you can see, at the end of the month, they are not making much money, but they are earning a living. It is not earning enough money to survive on, of course, that is where Social Security comes in, but they are working for a living. I almost forgot that when I was going to bring up the issue of those who cannot financially take care of themselves, still need help buttoning buttons, getting on the right bus, remembering to wear a coat in the winter, etc. And in spite of not being financially independent, as even the higher in mentality would wish to be, they are working for a living. I guess we need to figure that in when we blow away the total idea of socialism. Happy Thanksgiving.

This story has been told before...
...but not to grammar school children.The schools clean it up for them.

Who does the land belong to? I have come to the conclusion that all land belongs to those who are strong enough to seize it and hold it.And it belongs to them just as long as they can hold it.

The history books are written by the winners.

Disabled Adults
I have a Master's Degree in Special Education and am an instructor for the local college adults with varying challenging condiitons at a work/education center. The clients work 4 hours at about $.05 to $.10 an hour, and have class for an hour and a half. I was going to say that we do need to consider the needs of those who cannot fend for themselves in one way or another, which smacks of socialism, but instead I'm going to emphasize the fact that these challenged adults come to work/class every day to make their $.20 to $.40 without complaint of low wages, without complaint of boredom, and in fact they are working for a living. Of course they still need that Social Security to survive, but as far as they see, they are working for a living. So maybe it's still socialism, but can you beat that with a better Thanksgiving story?

Jeanne=marie Tran
Social Security was not designed to provide for the disabled; that is why it is bankrupt. The more free riders you load on the wagon, the more quickly it breaks down. If welfare for the disabled is a good thing, charitable organizations (such as the Salvation Army and Goodwill) will provide it; if you are certain that the average person must be forced to pay, a separate welfare program should have been designated for them.

As for the Tragedy of the Commons, all you have to do is walk into any womens washroom in America or Canada and you will see ample proof of this. Or, in our company, walk into the kitchens or the copy rooms. People who expend time, energy and cash (to hire maids) at their homes to keep them sparkling clean, revert to arrant piggery when they reach common washrooms, kitchens and common areas. Our kitchen by the time I arrive at 9:00 a.m. is a feast of spilled coffee and slopped water, empty boxes left in the coffee racks, empty paper towel racks and garbage on the floors. And do not get me started about the washrooms. I have been told by some of these piggies that they are TOO BUSY to clean up after themselves. This implies of course that my time is less valuable than theirs. I have no answer for it save *I bet that is just what your Mama taught you.*

Jeanne
Thank you for your dedication to the less able. As a rock-ribbed conservative, i applaud and support your efforts. I have never met personally anyone who disagreed with a social safety net to help those who for whatever reason were incapable of self support. This includes genetically impaired folks and victims of disease and trauma. A line of decision can be a difficult thing to draw. Who deserves a ride on the efforts of others? A major part of any successful program is that each do what he can. The benefits are many and mostly obvious. In your case, the satisfaction and self-esteem connected with knowing one is doing their best, doubtless contributes hugely to the quality of life of your clients. Thank you again. It takes a special person to deal with cruel fates.

A Soldier & Thanksgiving
Soldier finds new meaning in Thanksgiving

This article helps me appreciate the blessing of my family & friends. I wish all of you a Happy Thanksgiving!

USATODAY-Army Staff Sgt. Robbie Doughty has no complaints. Not about missing Thanksgivings with his family for most of the last decade. Not about spending half a year in the hospital.

And not about losing his legs after an ambush in July in Iraq.

“I’m just thankful for my family, my friends, and that my recovery has gone so well,” says Doughty, 29, of Paducah, Ky. “When I think about Thanksgiving this year, I’m just so grateful that I’ve received such excellent care from so many people. Everybody’s so well taken care of here.”

Here is the Walter Reed Army Medical Center. Doughty sits in a model apartment in the hospital’s occupational therapy ward and reflects on what Thanksgiving means to him. Patients, many who lost arms and legs, use the rooms to learn again how to open a door, take a shower or pop a pizza in the microwave.

“It used to be that I’d numb myself to Thanksgiving and holidays,” Doughty says. “You got so used to missing them. It’s different now because of the injury. Everything’s different.”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/soldier-finds-new- meaning-in-thanksgiving



sgt relic
No, the first thanksgiving was in 1598 near El Paso
if we don't count American Indian festivals.

Learn more about Thanksgiving, than this column,
here:
Top 10 Myths about Thanksgiving:
http://hnn.us/articles/406.html

there are 2 links from the article to info about
what historians really think took place in 1621.

now this column
I get the point of the article, but what a dumb way
to frame it:
the sharing of the fruits of our labor is a bad
thing?

AudiR10, farmer's wife
Solid, easily understood, demonstratable evidence as to why common areas left to individual responsibility don't work. Just why leftnuts tune out these obvious examples of why merit and contribution must have different outcome than sloth and foolish misbehavior eludes me. Emotion and wishful thinking and good intentions drive out consideration of beneficial results.

1 -ReCon Marine
He who is Physically & Mentally equipped and not disabled that continues to take from any society , my family home and Country eventually runs into a locked door with a sign on it saying .
"GO AWAY " You have wore out your welcome .
I ain't your Nanny state mommy anymore .
Sadly Socialist here would say , You Capitalist are a plague on our society and are totally unfair .
Wrong ! this kind of socialist weak kneed thinking and the teaching America's owes us and to be a constant taker is the true plague on any society and easily captures the useless among us.... for votes .
Sorry lefties Capitalism is really the first Barter system dating back to trinkets for food or beaver pelts .. meaning when we buy, not take .
We all eat while our taxes fall .
Go figure ? Not really !

Thanks, Savage99 ...
for your reasoned and thoughtful response to Jeanne. I must admit I was about to have a knee-jerk reaction. Your post helped calm me down which gave rational thought a chance to creep in. I so abhor government forced socialism, I sometimes forget what my faith teaches me.

You are correct that I don't mind a social safety net for those who are truly in need. In fact, Sripture teaches that we are to take care of those that cannot care for themselves. But we are deemed "judgemental" when talk about the scriptures that tell us that if an able bodied person does not work, they will not eat.

A year ago I sat in church while our pastor layed out a vision of opening up some free medical clinics in our area staffed by 100% volunteers complete with a stocked pharmacy. My initial reaction was, "My nice conservative church is going all liberal on me." Then I realized that this is what we as Christians are called to do. The vast majority of hospitals in the US were started as an outreach by Christians.

So I say to Jeanne, I have no qualms with taking care of those who truly need. Now, determining who truly has need and who's just getting a free ride is the tricky part.

To chaka zulu
Do you believe the Wampanoag were the *first* people to settle in the vicinity?
If not, one might wonder what happened to the earlier population.

Judging by the things Indians did to one another in the first years of contact, there is good reason to suppose that they well understood the concept of taking what belonged to another.

everyonesfacts...
Sharing (key word) the fruits of your labor is a good thing. Having it taken away from you to be given to others who are unwilling (not the unable) is a bad thing. Is that plain enough?

On the Wampanoag
As a point of fact, the relationship between the Wampanoag and the English colonists was based largely upon the Wampanoag's need for allies against their fellow 'peaceful' natives, the Narragansett. Here's a link to get you started on your own research:
http://www.unh.edu/inquiryjournal/05/articles/pajerrogers.h tm


Jeanne
Don't forget that while Social Security is taking care of those who cannot, thereby usurping the charities which used to do so, it also takes care of you. It provides you with a salary.

And the Indians sharing bit...
is a bunch of crap. They warred with each other, burned the landscape and would hunt an area to exticntion. Thus the "nomadic" lifestyle they had.

To Big Daddy
One has only to look at the fate of Cahokia, or the manner some tribes had of overkilling buffalo, or the willingness of the Iroquois to hunt the beaver to extinction in exchange for trade goods, to see that the ideal of the hyper-ecological native is in error.

However, the great majority of Indians were not nomadic. Most lived in settled locations, relying upon agriculture for the largest part of their diet.
The exceptions mostly lived on the Great Plains and subsisted largely on the buffalo. Also, agriculture was never adopted in the California-Washington area, apparently, probably due to the extreme abundance of readily-obtainable wild food.
In the rest of what is now the continental U.S., the natives mostly moved only under pressure from hostile tribes, natural disasters, or pressure from Europeans.

Another Gem From John Stossel
I had thought that small communes among those who share a common ideal or religious devotion would work (such as a kibbutz). But even on a small scale, communism fails.

To Nat
Actually, several of the Israeli kibbutz *seem* to have been rather successful for a number of years. I have not researched the matter, but I suspect that is because specific rules were established regulating each person's contribution, and disciplinary measures were enforced fairly rigorously.
But as I say, I do not know. It might be interesting to investigate, if I were not otherwise occupied.

Anybody have quantifiable data on this?

Jeanne=marie Tran
I have always said it is ironic that the handicapped among us run ad campaigns saying "Hire the handicapped" because they want to prove they are useful. Yet the able-bodied man who stands at the intersection of a busy road holding a sign that says "Please help" sees nothing wrong with the fact that he won't get a job.

I have often been tempted to pull my car over and say "Look, I get up in the morning and go to work even though my arthritis is sometimes so painful I can hardly stand it, so if I can work for my money, you can work for yours!" I am more than happy to help those who TRUELY can't help themselves. I'm not sure if that individual even exists, as you have demonstrated. Nearly everyone has some type of work they can do.

chaka zulu historical fantasy
OK maybe the seven Iroquois tribes created a league where they worked together but to depict the Native Americans as peace loving tribes is revisionist. They were as peace loving as the Sunni and Shia maybe less so. They captured and kept slaves etc. So get over it. You have watched too much Disney. They were nice to the pilgrims because the pilgrims had firearms!

Its so simple only the simple
dont get it. If I work hard, and keep what I produce, I can prosper. If I work with a team that works hard we can all prosper. If members of the team become slackers and still demand their share the team fails. The hard workers over time slack off because they dont get anything more for their efforts.
In THEORY communism could work among like minded people. In practice it never has. The leadership is always MORE EQUAL if not criminal.

chaka zulu crock
The Amerindians were a series of primitive Neolithic societies, living not much above the level of animals and possessing all human attributes, both positive and negative, the SAME as Neolithic societies on other continents before humans formed civilized societies. Your romanticist view first espoused by Rousseau was long ago exposed as a myth.

Kibbutzes
This study says that the Kibbutzes were a massive failure because they remained in heavy debt throughout their life. They did produce crops but at a massive cost to the government.

http://artsci.wustl.edu/~anthro/courses/361/gordon.html

Hagar RE: chaka zulu
Not from Disney but from government schools.


chaka zulu lulu
This 40 year effort to whitewash the history of the pre-Columbus American Indians is a bunch of garbage. Do you think that the tribes existing when Columbus landed were the first people to inhabit this contintent? H*ll no - they had certainly taken "their" lands by force from prior tribes. The "Noble Savage" of the 16th and 17th centuries had a documented history of killing and enslaving one another. And the "hunter-gatherer" tribes were forced to relocate every few months when they exahusted the natural resources in the area (primarily grass and game) and created huge, stinking pilies of animal carcasses and other crap that smelled awful. Your efforts to perpetuate the myth of the "Native Americans living in harmony with the land" are based on delusions and not facts.

to hagar
One of the purposes of the Iroquois confederation (likely the primary one) was to promote peace within the group in order to better fight against those outside. They depopulated whole regions of Others in order to have access to more beaver sources for their trade with the French (see also the 'Beaver Wars').

Not that it is popular to dwell on such facts now, of course.

To Vic
Thanks for the link. I hate relying on vague understandings, but really haven't had the time nor the particular interest to find out more about the kibbutz.

Thanks-you Everyone...
...and God bless those who understood the point of Stossel's article. And Jeanne=marie Tran, has a permenently disabled adult, I'll speak for myself, thank-you. I've sat in the offices of many highly educated people, who claim to be working in assisting the disabled. You have no idea of how we feel not being able to work full time, and not be dependant, on a greedy bureaucracy. For all I know, I might have sat before you, with your passionate, "oh my's, I'm sorry, but you fall between the cracks." With great thanks, I praise God, family, and friends, who gave of themselves to help me when I was down. I'm not collecting some socialized social security disability check! I worked my arse off for 19 years despite the pain, and aggravation, I endured, and paid my tax dollars, has I still pay today. Go hug your dam pillow, in your warm comfortable home, and don't spew this crap.

Don't forget lessons from Jamestown
Another lesson from the early Western-European settlements was that welfare programs don't work. In Jamestown, Virginia some of the settlers preferred searching for gold instead of working. Others thought they were "too good" for manual labor. John Smith told them "If you don't work, you don't eat." But for Smith's leadership, they would have all perished during the "Starving Time" in the winter of 1609-10.

Unfortunately, many have forgotten this lesson today. If you create welfare programs that hand out money and food, and require no services or labor in return, you end up with a dependant, non-productive underclass. "Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them."

Cannibalism
Yeah, these wonderful romanticised Indians, like the Carribe tribe, were found with cages where they fattened up members of other tribes to eat. Why domesticate animals when there are people to eat?

All these communist notions work in theory because in theory, you can ignore reality. In real life, reality inevitably bites you in the a$$ if you try to ignore it.

To impact
Hadn't you heard? The latest mantra is that the Indians only performed *ritual* cannibalism, which apparently is okay.

You know, ritual cannibalism like what the Itza performed on a party of over ninety Spanish in the mid 1690's. First you invite them into your city peacefully. Then when you've got them split up into conveniently small groups in your canoes, you beat them over the head. I suppose you know what comes next.
You know, ritual.

1 -ReCon Marine
Tallil2long writes:
To Nat
Actually, several of the Israeli kibbutz *seem* to have been rather successful for a number of years. I have not researched the matter, but I suspect that is because specific rules were established regulating each person's contribution, and disciplinary measures were enforced fairly rigorously.
But as I say, I do not know. It might be interesting to investigate, if I were not otherwise occupied.

Anybody have quantifiable data on this?
Email It

Yeap ..Sharon's Govt of Israel "paid " them to stay in their outer reaches kibbutz of Israel establishing Israel land .He also built thousands of APARTMENTS in those waste area's as well .

chaka zulu
Indian tribes were sparsely populated, so they could afford to adhere to primitive methods of production. They did not have that many to feed.

And I take exception to your contention that indians were imbued with the spirit of generosity and communal camaraderie in their relations with fellow tribes.

I do not think we have a mission to make the world in our image. And I don't subscribe to the mandate from Kipling's works about "white man's burden". If folks want to engage in their primitivism, and if misguided white liberals heap effusive praise upon the "romanticism" of primitive cultures and peoples, so be it. I even disagree with Bush that we have some mission to remake the middle east, and the muslim world. If they want to live in the 8th century, so be it...as long as it does not impinge on us. I don't give a damn about "democratizing" them.

White liberals will always find any culture that is not "white", to be noble. Nothing new there. They do like their kool-aid.

Stossel is right about how private incentive made all the difference in whether the Pilgrims starved.

Not completely lost
At the conclusion of this excellent column Stossel writes:

"That's the lost lesson of Thanksgiving."

But it hasn't been completely lost. Rush Limbaugh has been telling this "real" stroy of Thanksgiving once a year for more than a decade. If you want to hear it in a more complete form, using the very same quotes from Bradford that Stossel cites, Rush will be doing it again today between noon and 3 PM EST. Go to http://www.rushlimbaugh.com to find the radio station in your area that carries his show.


To sam
Yes, I am beginning to see the picture. Thank you.

Tallil2long, Nat and Vic
I have a friend that spent time on 2 kibbutzes and said that one was very successful and also a pleasure to work on and the other was terrible and the food was barely edible (no hot food for dinner as no one wanted to cook). The difference was that the leadership of the "good" one was tough and if you did not work, you did not eat. They grew enough food to sell the surplus to buy more comfortable accomodations. The "poor" one, had no such discipline and no such accomodations.

Still, eventually, the kibbutzes have gone the way of the Dodo.

Experience is the only teacher
Two centuries after the Pilgrims learned the sad truth about socialism, Robert Owen started New Harmony in America, another socialist/communist dream that turned into a nightmare within two short years. Without guns, gulag, and gaging of the free press, socialism/communism cannot long exist as a functional system.

It seems like ever other generation or so needs to learn this lesson in human nature the hard way.

traitorous republicans writes:
"and god said "thou shalt not share, and unions are creations of the devil".

No. Actually the bible says: "Let him that does not work, not eat."

Also: "Go to the ant, lazy one. Learn its ways and become wise."

Finally: "Thou shalt not steal."

Pearls of wisdom and justice a lying commiequeer like yourself couldn't hope to fathom.

True, documented facts: "Mayflower"
Mayflower: A Story of Courage, Community, and War
by Nathaniel Philbrick


National Book Award–winner Philbrick (In the Heart of the Sea) examines the history of Plymouth Colony. In the early 17th century, a small group of devout English Christians fled their villages to escape persecution, going first to Holland, then making the now infamous 10-week voyage to the New World. Rather than arriving in the summer months as planned, they landed in November, low on supplies. Luckily, they were met by the Wampanoag Indians and their wizened chief, Massasoit. In economical, well-paced prose, Philbrick masterfully recounts the desperate circumstances of both the settlers and their would-be hosts, and how the Wampanoags saved the colony from certain destruction. Indeed, there was a first Thanksgiving, the author notes, and for over 50 years the Wampanoags and the Pilgrims lived in peace, becoming increasingly interdependent. But in 1675, 56 years after the colonists' landing, Massasoit's heir, Philip, launched a confusing war on the English that, over 14 horrifying months, claimed 5,000 lives, a huge percentage of the colonies' population. Impeccably researched and expertly rendered, Philbrick's account brings the Plymouth Colony and its leaders, including William Bradford, Benjamin Church and the bellicose, dwarfish Miles Standish, vividly to life. More importantly, he brings into focus a gruesome period in early American history. For Philbrick, this is yet another award-worthy story of survival.



Tallil2long
Aren't all wars "beaver wars"?

Stossel's Christmas Story
I'm sure Stossel is now hard on a story to show how free markets could have made the Christmas story more meaningful. Hey, Bethehem was crowded at tax time and there was no room at the inn. What if the stable owner had asked more for that manger than Mary and Joseph could afford, and Mary had been forced to give birth in the streets?

For those that enjoyed this column
(and still dont get it)
read Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics- It's an easy read and full of great examples.

John- Great column! concisely worded.

John Great column!
Concisely worded. For those that dont get or just want more info read Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics. It's a fun read.

TR - YOU are the liar
I have a degree in history and I studied the colinization era in particular the puritans and Stossel is correct. Until each person was able to provide for himself first and own the land they were working...they did not survive and were afflicted with many illnesses that almost wiped them out. On the surface communal sharing is a pretty utopian thing. In reality -- it doesn't work.

My economics professor taught me this in undergraduate school...no economic system is perfect. But the free market system is the best system for all it's failures because it is the only system that works at getting what is needed to most of those in need. Socialism can't do that because the system doesn't know what each invidiual wants or needs at any given time. You have A telling B he's getting an apple even though in reality B needs an orange. He knew what he was talking about -- he immigrated LEGALLY to Indiana from the former Yugoslavia where he was an accountant for the government. So he has seen both sides of the fence -- you tell me who am I going to believe? You or him...

My broken leg /Welfare comparrison
When I was in the C Div.OF ReCon ( MOS 0321 ) USMC... I had my leg broken in half while playing competition Judo .
From the day a cast was put on my leg to the day I left the Portsmouth Naval Hospital they made me get up early in the morning signing in and standing muster 3 times a day in full uniform all squared away ...3 blocks away .
Damn we hated that as would those on welfare Today would as well and GET A JOB QUICKLY SINCE THEY COULD NOT LAY AROUND ALL DAY ANY LONGER AND HAVE TO BE SQUARED AWAY (no drugs or wine heads )
I couldn't wait to go back to my unit at Little Creek VA. since we were training with Seal team 21 there .
The Doctors also took my churches away as soon as possible ...But why ? Simply because when we rely on any thing too long that is how we destroy our on Leg's .. meaning sadly we will rarely go "Un-Crunched "in life .

Sharing vs Taking
The phrase
"To each according to his needs, and from each according to his abilities"
sounds good and has attracted many well-meaning adherents to socialism. The most important issue is 'who does the transferring'? Other issues are: who determines need and who determines ability? When these determinations are left to 'the state', they become bureaucratic and mechanical (legal).
Hannah Arendt wrote:
"Today we ought to add the latest and perhaps most formidable form of such domination: bureaucracy or the rule of an intricate system of bureaus in which no man, neither one nor the best, neither the few nor the many, can be held responsible, and which could be properly called the rule by Nobody. (If, in accord with traditional political thought, we identify tyranny as government that is not held to give account of itself, rule by Nobody is clearly the most tyrranical of all, since there is no one left who could be asked to answer for what is being done...)."
That's what you deal with when the state is the agent that tranfers.
Leave people alone and the abundance that they generate through freedom will be willing shared with the truly needy.
I have confidence in the general good of people if they are allowed both freedom to decide for themselves and the consequences of their decisions.

NEGATIVE PERSPECTIVE, Washington POST
Apparently the non-fiction book reviewer of this un-worthy biased paper has the gall to twist the scholarly author's overall conclusion about documented history!

Looks like another case of "Intrepid WP Star Reporter with superior intellect interprets book for ignorant common-man public, suggesting the gist of the book is that Americans have delusions "...that encourage us in the conviction that we are a nation uniquely blessed by God and that we have reached a level of righteousness unattained by any other country."

The book covers approximately five decades after the Puritans arrived on the Mayflower. Only about 51 Puritans survived the first Winter.

Glad that my prolific ancestor Richard Warren was one of them.


Giving vs Sharing
The phrase
"To each according to his needs, and from each according to his abilities"
sounds good and has attracted many well-meaning adherents to socialism. The most important issue is 'who does the transferring'? Other issues are: who determines need and who determines ability? When these determinations are left to 'the state', they become bureaucratic and mechanical (legal).
Hannah Arendt wrote:
"Today we ought to add the latest and perhaps most formidable form of such domination: bureaucracy or the rule of an intricate system of bureaus in which no man, neither one nor the best, neither the few nor the many, can be held responsible, and which could be properly called the rule by Nobody. (If, in accord with traditional political thought, we identify tyranny as government that is not held to give account of itself, rule by Nobody is clearly the most tyrranical of all, since there is no one left who could be asked to answer for what is being done...)."
That's what you deal with when the state is the agent that tranfers.
Leave people alone and the abundance that they generate through freedom will be willing shared with the truly needy.
I have confidence in the general good of people if they are allowed both freedom to decide for themselves and the consequences of their decisions.

johninoregon
Great non sequitur. A real gem. Hey, try this one: There's no "I" in team. What do you think? Pretty irrelevant, huh?

By the way, what do you think about the facts the author laid out?

We are waiting TR
Can't back it up? Didn't think so.

Kibbutzim have a hard time standing alone. They are supported by the government of Israel. However, they are one the reasons that Israel is what it is. When the lines were drawn up after WWII the kibbutzim were included in the borders of the new country. They were instrumental in the settlement of Jews returning to the land. Originally communist/socialist in nature, many now are industrial, and not agriculturally based as all were in the beginning. I worked on one in the Jordan valley for a year in the 90's. Great people and lifestyle, but the concept was doomed to failure. Without gov. subsidies most would not survive. The idea of communal life on a large scale, DOES NOT WORK.

Stossel's story is true.

Day of mourning
Just a Thought,

I know. You're right. The traditional Thanksgiving lesson as I was taught in school (I'm 54) was that it was a day that the Pilgrims gave thanks to God for delivering their bounty to them.

But the anti-religious attitude of today's (leftist) teachers is such that any mention of God is forbidden. They can't even bring themselves to teach their students the historical fact that the Pilgrims believed in a God, even though this belief was their primary reason for coming here.

According to this line of thinking, the appropriate (honest) thing to do would be to ignore Thanksgiving (and Christmas) altogether. But then the teachers wouldn't get their paid days off.

Can you say "hypocrites"?

For johninoregon
Why was Bethlehem crowded? Tax time.

Who's tax? The government's (by definition).

Moron.

Wiseone
Who's the moron here?

The Bethlehem story is a myth.
If you want to learn about myths and how they apply to your choice of a god, Search for Lord Raglan's Hero Pattern. See any similarities?

communalism vs voluntary charity
JohnInOregon, 9:54 AM, demonstrates that, like all liberals, he's incapable of distinguishing between voluntary charity and government-enforced communalism.

Even worse -- he uses his own inability as the basis for accusing better people than he'll become in a thousand lifetimes of hating charity.

Here, John, this is simple:

If a man sees another in need and voluntarily gives him something out of his own wealth, that's called charity. We conservatives applaud that sort of thing (and we do more of it than liberals do). It works. Lots of good things happen when individuals choose to do good to others. Both the giver and the recipient are blessed by this.

If a government decides everybody must give to others out of their wealth, and taxes the rich and then distributes the money as they see fit, that's called Socialism. We conservatives hate that sort of thing. It doesn't work. People's needs are never met properly under socialism, bureaucrats thrive, graft multiplies, and all incentive for excellence vanishes. It's a form of theft.

Pretty simple, eh?

wiseone
Not to defend johninoregon, whose wonderful non-sequitur only unserscored the usual failure of Leftists to address the facts at hand, favoring instead their lovely little straw man...

... but despite the KJV Bible's use of the word "tax," the historical context of the Christmas story was a census, not a Roman-era IRS-fest.

However, your point does still obtain, in the fact that Bethlehem was crowded due to a government-mandated shift in population.

inkling
Brilliant, as usual!

IS HUMANKIND JUST STUPID?

.....Aristotle said, "That which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it." ...

.....Translation: Socialism is a flawed philosophy that cannot work in the real world ...

.....And yet here it is thousands of years later and man keeps trying ...with Hillary and the Democrats as the latest proponents of this poisionous ideology ...

.....Are we living in a "Groundhog Day" fantasy world or has millions of years of human evolution brought us to the point of being just a generation away from a "Lord of the Flies" society .....COLOSSUS

Not that this is on topic...
...but dhimmiwit, you should do a little less biased research. It's unlikely that the Bethlehem story is a myth. It's possible -- if you're a skeptic -- to suggest that a few elements of the story may be apocryphal, notably the Magii and the star.

There's no way that the movement of a particular family in a particular town can be traced by historians unless some writer decides to write about them -- oh, wait, one did! Hate to break it to ya, dhimmi, but Luke's gospel is historical documentation. You don't have to be a Christian to recognize it as such. His writing is deliberately filled with references to outside events, so historians can identify the period, and his references are remarkably accurate.

The events noted surrounding the census does check out in Luke's gospel: Augustus even lists his three census' among the great works of his reign. There are a few issues with the actual dates, but those are pretty easy to reconcile, Check out http://www.orlutheran.com/html/census.html for a decent discussion.

By the way -- the similarity between somebody's "hero complex" theory and actual belief does not prove, or even imply, that one is the same as the other. Examine your logic.

Another example
This time, relating to education.

India has ONE state (Indian Kashmir) in which all primary/secondary education is free. But this state, from 1951 until 1981, ranked fourth-from-bottom consistently in literacy rates; with the added factor of insurgency, its rank has now gone to second-from-bottom.

By contrast, no other state (including the almost-totally-literate Kerala) has ever had this facility--and all except for the bottom one (consistently Bihar--which is basically a totally undeveloppable state) have improved literacy since 1981.

Certainly shows that if a service is paid for, it is more valued than if it is "provided".

Further example is right-next-door to US in Canada--where Quebec gets services the other nine provinces do not (at cost to taxpayers in the other nine).

For Fergus
I also read a "profane history" source (Colleen McCullogh's Rome novels--which were based on extensive research) which confirms that Roman censi (especially in areas OUTSIDE the Italian boot) were conducted specifically for the purpose of deciding taxation--so the KJV's use of "tax" is not at all mistaken.

The liberal Christmas Story
If the Christmas Story had been impacted and controlled by the people of JohninOregon’s ilk it would go like this:

King Harrod would be a local party apparatchik who reported to the big Party bosses in Rome. There would have been no inn for common people to be overcrowded. So Mary would have camped in the street. There the police would have arrested her for violation of local ordinances and regulation and she would have delivered the child in jail. Joseph being a carpenter would have been ordered to build an inn for use by the minor apparatchiks who counted the taxes. Mary and Joseph both would have frozen to death because fire would have been prohibited due to green house gas laws.

Never seen any facts from this guy
everyonesfacts writes: 7:04 AM
sgt relic
No, the first thanksgiving was in 1598 near El Paso
if we don't count American Indian festivals.

Learn more about Thanksgiving, than this column,
here:
Top 10 Myths about Thanksgiving:
http://hnn.us/articles/406.html
---------------

What a load of ignorance, lies and distortions from a myth maker.


Thanks Giving to God has existed since man has been on the earth.
And as David does, so will I, right here among the same sort of fools as "nofacts", David speaks of.

2Sa 22:50 -
Therefore I will give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and I will sing praises unto thy name.

The Apostle Paul wrote to ALWAYS give Thanks.

Eph 5:20 -
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;


His link is of such deep and imprudent hatred for both God and Americans it leaps off that site he gives, full of distortions.

El Paso Texas has NOTHING to do with American Traditions of Thanksgiving.
And America is not a Spanish Government, but an English.

The American Tradition comes about exactly as Stossel speaks of in this article.

The Government of the United States is based on the Traditions of Christianity of the English speaking world.
Long taught to give Thanks unto the Lord.

I do not think the Mexican Government has ever instituted Thanksgiving into its National Character as Christian Protestant Americans have.

When you see this guys posts, "nofacts" just look for the opposite views to be the right place to look.




Thanks Mr. Stossel
Nice article. Amazing how many folks really don't know the real story.

Have a wonderful and blessed Thanksgiving everyone. Give thanks that you are blessed to live in this wonderful country called USA.

`Julia

Count first, tax second
I agree with svpallava. It has been my understanding that the Roman census in Judea was required to count families before they were subsequently taxed. That is why Joseph needed to return to the city of his family - Bethlehem.

On the greater theme of socialism versus capitalism, however, I just can't understand the liberal position. Is Michael Savage correct: Liberlism is a mental disorder? No matter how many examples of failed socialism you put forth (from Plymouth Mass. to North Korea), they always want to try it "one more time." While capitalism certainly has its defects (greed being a big problem), when it fails, the negative effects seem to have a more limited impact. Whereas, when socialism fails, as in China, North Korea and Soviet Russia, then MILLIONS die.

The city of Detroit
has a lovely island just a bridge ride over to it. During the summer, every Monday after the weekend, the island is a pegpen of refuge and the toilets are unspeakable. Regularily, someone will call for a toll charge over the bridge to use the money to keep up this beautiful island. Everytime the subject is raised the cry goes up that the poor citizens of Detroit would be penalized if they had to pay. One has to wonder if they had to pay they might value it more. You see, whether its ones labor or ones money for which one labors, it is all the same as the lesson Mr. Stossell is writing about.

communal living
I'm shocked to learn that the guide book to a national socialist government, "It Takes A Village", is nothing more than a lie perpetrated on many of America's fellow travelers and useful idiots.

... and she wants to be President again.

Go figure.

Vic
"They push the over use of finite resources that are shared. In other words, the tragedy is some kind of environmental degradation."
The reason finite resources are overused is because they are shared.

Look at one of the greatest environmental problems in the world, which is overfishing. Overfishing happens when different fishermen share part of the ocean.

THANKSGIVING 1623
AMEN!

knight of baawa
Explain why communism did not work for those Christian Puritans.

Can't blame Marx for this one
It is unhistoric to blame Marxism/Communism for the failure of the Pilgrims in their attempt to form a communal society. Marx wasn't born for another 200 years.

The Pilgrims based their compact on their interpretation of Scripture, and what they thought would be a just society.

Having said that, I want you to understand, I am not making a case for communal living. I agree completely with the observations that societies ordered on communal lines ultimately do not work. I agree that they ignore our own self-interest, which interest cannot be ignored. Ultimately, we want to take care of ourselves.

Let us say, rather, that this proves once again that the society that works best is one that allows the individual the greatest level of freedom of action, tempered by responsibility for his actions, and that in pursuing our own happiness under those conditions, we improve our society, to the benefit of everyone.

Adam Smith was right (and remember, he was another 100 years or so after the Pilgrims).

Hillary delenda est.

small communes don't always fail
It just takes the total super commitment of each individual to make them work. There was one mormon commune in Utah a long time ago called "Order Ville." It too eventually failed, but the people there said that while it worked they were very happy. But even if it works, it probably takes a capitalistic underpinning to support anyway.

Gandhi actually founded a commune that worked fairly well. Read his autobiography. I agree mostly with Stossel; for regular people it cannot work, but people who are super committed to each other can make it work.

Scale
Communes only work on the small-scale.

It is true
theBaron writes: 1:17 PM
Can't blame Marx for this one
It is unhistoric to blame Marxism/Communism for the failure of the Pilgrims in their attempt to form a communal society. Marx wasn't born for another 200 years.

The Pilgrims based their compact on their interpretation of Scripture, and what they thought would be a just society.
---------

That the Book of Acts tells about the first Christian Church at Jerusalem owning all things common, but later on Paul describes the financial situation of that method and had brought the Saints at Jerusalem to.

Romans 15:26 -
For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem




KOB, not so
As pointed out by the Baron, it is tough to argue that the Pilgrims used Marxist philosophy some 200 years before Karl was born . . .

Even so, there is a HUGE difference between secular communism and faith-based communes. Secular communism is imposed on its "followers" with guns and tanks. If you don't like it, there is always a "re-education" camp waiting for you. Faith-based communes are started as acts of free-will, by like-minded individuals. On a small scale, they sometimes work. On a large scale, they never do.

So yes, communism as promoted by Marx was most certainly godless. In fact, some have argued that Marxism was merely a bad counterfeit of faith-based communal living (such as was practiced by the first Christians living in Judea).

Marxism vs. Communism
Not that Knight of Bawaaa needs me running interference for him, but he clearly said "Communism" not "Marxism."

If I remember correctly, and it's been a few years, Marx envisioned industrial Germany, not agrarian Russia becoming a communist Utopia because the capitalists were, as he saw it, taking advantage of the workers. But the socialist doctrine had been around long before Marx; several others above have pointed out biblical references to communal life, which can be observed in the few remaining monastic orders. How well they are doing, I couldn't say, but I'll wager that like the Kibbutzim, they are heavily subsidized by the mother ship.

Stossel's point can be extended to make the case that government schooling is a failure because it is "free" and many of its "customers," the parents of the failing children, see no value in it. Perhaps children who attend private school are more successful because it is not "free" to their parents, and consequently their parents work harder to ensure they get a return on their investment.

Excellent Reminder of What Rewards
In my house, this Thanksgiving reminder is never forgotten. And, we give thanks for that, too.

socialism --> communism
Communism is simply the logical result of socialism taken to its endpoint, i.e. complete control of a society by a small ruling class.

Knight_of_baawa Confuses Terms
knight_of_baawa writes, "Wouldn't you know, all the people who scream about communism being godless are COMPLETELY WRONG!"

Communism as practiced by the Puritans was the simple definition of shared properties.

Communism that would have little to do with religion is a totalitarian regime whereby the Government owns all and citizens are subservient to its authority.

As usual, you have confused definitions to express an absurd notion of correlation. Try to stay within in the lines when drawing your non-sense. It might help.



Johninoregon Is Ignorant Of US History
johninoregon writes, "Stossel's Christmas Story
I'm sure Stossel is now hard on a story to show how free markets could have made the Christmas story more meaningful."

Actually, this is the root of the American Thanksgiving holiday. No invention by Stossel. Governor Bradford's diary is well read and remembered as early evidence of the power of private property and capitalism as a means to prosper.

Keys to prosperity
Excellent column. Property rights and reliance on individual productivity based on incentive are the keys to prosperity and abundance. That's the reason America has long been the economic as well as moral leader of the world. Communal economic systems have never fared well because they are by design counterproductive and self-defeating, encouraging slackers and discouraging the industrious. Le'Chaim.

Free Ramos and Compean
Global warming is sphere nonsense
Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas

Talking about the land of the free . . .
“The failure of Soviet communism is only the latest demonstration that freedom and property rights, not sharing, are essential to prosperity,” writes Stossel. Actually, a centralized (Moscow) murderous plutocracy, with compliant bureaucratic regional “underlings,” coupled with endless droves of peasants willing to kill for the state instead of starve, and being a nation that had more of it’s citizenry killed than any other nation in the 20th century (in the first fifty years of the century nonetheless!), was many things but a classless stateless society. Verily, And all they that believed were together and had all things common (Acts 2:44). Communist Russia had little in common with the three thousand faithful followers of Peter and the apostles!

And as far as “not sharing” and “property rights” being “essential to prosperity,” mayhap, but it does seem greedily un-Christian, o, that is right, that “gospel of prosperity” thing huh . . .

I have read about the Pilgrims choosing to sleep, steal, or even starve to death rather than work, which is quite remarkable in face of the immense difficulties they must, in fact did, have in establishing these early colonies; thank goodness they came up with the idea of parceling out this “free” land . . .

destroy America's unholy corpotocracy!
As far as the aristocrat supreme Aristotle, who had quite a privileged life, ergo he had the time to delve into such grand matters of virtually everything, he was a warmongering, pro-slavery, and pro-abortion (and if the baby was ‘deformed’ immediate death!) kind of dude who was little impressed with the barbarian hordes of Europe, o but wait, the Anglos fancy themselves, via northern Europe, descendants of the Romans, or is that a lost tribe of the Jews . . .

Nevertheless, the witch hunting protesting Calvinists (followers of a Frenchmen ironic no!!) that came to the new world never missed an opportunity to economically exploit their fellow wayfarers, hence Bradford “parceling” out the land for profit incorporated, foreigners or merchants they could not overcome with guns or God, and of course the Native Americans who thought that if they helped these newcomers survive they may gain invaluable technology that would enable them to make short work of enemy Indian nations.

But Stossel’s mantra of securing those property rights by which people can take risks and invest is ever the chant of those who ceaselessly invent, manufacture that is, enemies near and abroad, because in fact war is their only constant invention.

Amen

knight_of_baawa: communism
I think it's a little more complicated than that.

I don't think it has anything to do with communism.

Instead I think it has to do with authoritarianism.

When we are responsible for our own survival we prosper and when we are not we do not.

This I argue has nothing to do with communism.

If we look at communal systems what we find is that those which are organized on authoritarian lines fail.

Those organized on voluntary lines succeed.

Clearly in both cases the main issue is free loaders.

But freeloading has a much to do with culture as it has to do with structure. Property does not guarantee no freeloaders, especially when that property is confiscated in the form of taxes.

Rather the ability to control ones own outcome has a much closer relationship than weather property is acknowledged or not.

Institutional property rights as they exist in the US today for instance promote free loading rather than discourage it. Because property rights do not protect the product of our labors but rather protects those who can confiscate those products and that labor form being held to account further facilitating their free loader activity, and encouraging us to free load.

GALLTEGFA

.....Your comment on why Private Schools produce results while Public Schools do not was spot on ...another perfect example of human nature at work ...

.....You might also have mentioned that Free Public Education was a concept of Marx and was number ten in the Communist Manifesto .....COLOSSUS

...BTW Are you from jolly old England old chap?

Paul
... makes the right distinction, between giving and sharing.

As I mentioned in responding to another column (Monday?), sharing is a word that by its nature implies a defined whole, and the portioning of "shares" in it. Mothers have authority over the defined whole of their children's toys and their time, and determine how those quantities shall be shared out.

Giving, however, occurs when an individual decides to provide benefit to another from the store of what is his. If there is a defined whole in this case, it's what belongs to the giver.

We can decide to give, and make that decision for ourselves, and it is evidence of compassion and charity. When we construct the idea of SHARING, however, we imply an abstract obligation that relates not to our motives or even the needs of others, but to a specific material outcome: that a defined whole shall be "shared."

God never told us to share. God told us to give.

Authoritarian? No.
Knight of Bawaa floats an interesting theory about the failure of communes: "If we look at communal systems what we find is that those which are organized on authoritarian lines fail. Those organized on voluntary lines succeed."

The example in the article, above, was a communal system built on volunteerism. None of the Pilgrims were forced to come to America. It failed.

I believe what you're seeing, Knight, is the success in the early years of communes in which the viability of the commune is the chief passion of all the participants in it. They're not there to make a living or to survive, but to prove that such a commune is possible. This provides an internal motivation that keeps them working despite the inherent disincentives of the system.

The "authoritarianism" arises when, because of the disincentives of communal economics, some participants start underperforming deliberately. It becomes immediately necessary to either dissolve the commune, or institute rules that require full participation. Authoritarianism is the RESULT of the failed economic system, not the cause of it.

inkling
That was uber, not knight.

And he is making the classic mistake of Leftist intellectuals: he posits the potential for success of Socialism, based on an improvement in the core material: humanity.

6000+ years of effort have not succeeded in making men better; why do the Leftists constantly think that another decade or two will do the trick?

Why do they think it's possible?
Fergus writes: "why do the Leftists constantly think that another decade or two will do the trick?"

Because they see themselves as already perfected, and believe it will only take a few decades of them being in control to make everybody else do what they demand.

I thought he was being...
...uncharacteristically civil.

You're right, that was Uber.

Knight of Bawaa issued his usual, beyond-arrogant dismissal in this form: "The Pilgrims were Christian. And they used COMMUNISM. But I thought communism was godless and all that rot?"

You don't suppose the folks who spoke of "godless communism" were referring to Soviet Marxism, do you? In which case they were right about both the godnessness and the communism, although a little too unspecific.

Naaaaaa... couldn't have been that.

(Not all communism is Marxist, but all Marxism is communistic.)

Would that....
EVERY office seeker Rebublican (mostly statists) and Democrat (virtually all statist and socialist) would have even an inkling of understanding of Stossel's message. Bring back Constitutional government
http://amfree.townhall.com

Communism is godless
When we talk about communism, are we talking about some farm where a hippie cult lives or are we talking about the USSR, China or Cuba? There's a difference and I think we all know it.

Communist governments are authoritarian regimes. Stalin and Mao, like Hitler, attempted to replace God with the state. People of faith believe in a higher power. Communists believe the state is the highest power. Communists recognize that man cannot serve two masters and so they seek to destroy religion.

But the Plymouth colony is like the hippie commune. The people weren't statists. The people didn't want to work, the government didn't force anybody to work and so the people almost starved.

inkling_revival: Communism
"The "authoritarianism" arises when, because of the disincentives of communal economics, some participants start underperforming deliberately. It becomes immediately necessary to either dissolve the commune, or institute rules that require full participation. Authoritarianism is the RESULT of the failed economic system, not the cause of it."

I disagree with you... The desire to institute rules are the result of a culture. Clearly dissolving and reconstituting the commune among willing participants is always preferable.

What you are not will gin to concede is that free loading is a function of the structure under which people cooperate.

Freeloading must can't we forced into submission. As you rightly point out. Whether under competitive of cooperative conditions. It has to be dealt with threw offering a means of opting out.

By opting out I mean providing a mechanism by which the individual can organize his own collective, or going it allow.

Communism clearly is the dominant institutional structure today.

Not only communism but authoritarian communism.

Every corporation operates by the principles of the soviet union.

But the key difference between the USSR and AT&T is the ability of employees/citizens to leave and make new alliances with a new commune/cooperation.

Knight_of_baawa Still Confused
Knight_of_baawa offers, "Wouldn't you know, all the people who scream about communism being godless are COMPLETELY WRONG!"

Communism as practiced by the Puritans was not the same as a totalitarian regime.

You have confused the two, as usual.

Knight_of_baawa Still Confused
Knight_of_baawa offers as to Mac Moore, "...his zealous hatred of me"

I do not hate you. I think you are ignorant with a stubborn bent to remain that way. You even take time to mock my responses, a common practice of such people.

Charlie Brown and the Value of Virtue
Wow!!!!!!!!!! I never thought such a simple, beloved holiday could bring out such printed controveresy. If the first Thanksgiving was never really about sharing, I think we can all agree that the tradition over time has become one of festivity, family, friends, and sharing what we have together, although there probably are those who would argue with that as well. And, no, I don't believe that Hallmark created Thanksgiving.

I just got home a while ago, and had written in this morning. I'm the one who works with multiply disabled adults with an MA for the grand sum of $24,000 a year which some writer felt that I was costing Social Security by providing services to the adult disabled, even though I am an instructor for a college, and I guess if you twisted it tight enough you might find a connection there.

Well, maybe many of you haven't seen the Charlie Brown Thanksgiving movie, but like all his movies, Charlie Brown, who is so idealistic about humanity gets dumped, again; we all know that this is inevitable. Then something happens, his group of friends have an epiphany, discovering that Charlie Brown was right all along, that it is all about the spirit of holiday in our hearts that makes it real.

Well, while all you historians argue over the facts, I think I'll stick with Charlie Brown, even if he always misses that football, and I'll leave the history to the historians. And if anybody needs any more than that to find a reason to share Thanksgiving with family and friends, then go spend some time with some children. They'll teach you the rules. Well, there are always rules, if you're going to play together.

Happy Thanksgiving, share it with family, friends, church, groups, celebrate the holiday of gratitude for all we have, especially thoes who care for us. Celebrate and be glad for all that we have been blessed with. And may you have a very happy Thanksgiving.

Knight_of_baawa Too Stubborn To See
Knight_of_baawa offers to inkling_revival, "That's what you christians tell me, ink. You christians always tell me that communism is atheistic. No christian that I see, especially on here, ever speaks of "non-atheistic communism".

You are forever confusing topics. Communism as discussed normally, refers to totalitarian regimes that shun religions. Communism, as discussed in this article is a simpler form of shared properties, like communes, are very likely to be religiously tied.

Of course, you know that. But, for some reason, you prefer to settle old scores than find common ground. Being obtuse on purpose is not a very compelling argument.

traitorous republicans
Your take on history is a fine example of SOCIALIST SCHOOLING.
"The Pilgrims" suffered about 40% deaths the first year and wouldn't have survived to learn their lession if a supply ship from VIRGINA hadn't sent tons of food and seed north.

Against my better judgment...
...I'll answer Knight of Bawaa. But I don't pretend to expect anything resembling a civil response.

I do recall hearing a few people use the phrase "godless communism." I believe the phrase was a lot more common in the 1950s. I was born in 1954, so I can't testify to that personally, but I think it was part of the rhetoric of the period. Think "John Foster Dulles..."

In my adult life, I've heard the phrase mostly from Evangelical preachers on TV. I've always thought it sounded a little ignorant. It's the unfortunate habit of some ultra-conservative Christians (religiously conservative, not necessarily politically) to use styles, metaphors, turns of phrase that are several decades behind the culture at large, so I imagine "godless communism" is one of those cultural artifacts preserved by religious habit.

I'm somewhat brighter and better educated than a lot of the people around whom I spend time, but I don't rub that in their faces. When I hear someone use the phrase, "godless communism," I transpose it to "Marxism" in my head, because I know that's what they mean. I don't go around correcting peoples' syntactical inaccuracies. That would be rude, I'd end up friendless, and they'd be just as ignorant as if I held my peace.

If you don't want to understand what people mean, and instead want to lampoon the inaccuracies of their syntax by pretending you don't know what they mean, I suppose people who say "godless communism" while meaning Marxism are a fair target. But my goal is more often to communicate, so I actually make allowances for peoples' inaccuracies, rather than use their errors to boost my ego, as you seem to be doing.

Hooray! I'm a hatemonger!
You've finally arrived when knight_of_bawaa calls you names, instead of providing any substantive counterarguments to something you've posted.

Today, I am no longer a TownHall boy, I am a TownHall man. Mazel tov!

Hillary delenda est.

theBaron
LMAO!

"Drink "Lochaim," to life!"

Skoal, FergusMacLennan!
Thanks for the toast, my friend, gotta keep our sense of humor.

Isn't it amusing to watch some of these people get all riled here in the posts, when they put their blog muscles on?

Enjoy your reading, dude!

Hillary delenda est.

Thanksgiving?
Funny how a Libertarian can bring most anything around to property rights. Now, while I would be the last one to bash those, I wish that Mr. Stossel had actually reflected on the real reason for the original Thanksgiving. That being giving thanks and praise to our Creator after an extremely rough year in the New England wilderness. Thanks, Praise and then sharing the bounty granted to them with their friends. I mean, who created the privatized property in the first place? I know I am most grateful for the bounty I have received!

@THRadio
You wrote:

"While capitalism certainly has its defects (greed being a big problem), when it fails..."


I'm trying to think of a capitalistic system that has failed due to being capitalistic. Capitalistic systems fail because they are overtaken by socialists and totalitarians.

Otherwise, good points in your post.

P.S. To Inkling: Masterfully stated regarding the historical documentation made by Dr. Luke in his Gospel. It is typical though, that the Christophobics would dismiss the first-person witness of someone like Luke because he wrote about something that they wish had never happened, the birth of Jesus.



knight_of_baawa
Communism is a theory of economics. However, as practiced as a political theory it required the extinction of competing ideologies. Hence, Saint Vladimir outlawed all religions, and required the people to worship the GOVERNMENT as the provider of all things. ALL THINGS. Saint Vladimir has been preserved under glass. Take a flight to Moscow, take a cab ride to the Kremlin and check it out. In the meantime, understand that every time communism was attempted on a scale larger than a small group, it required totalarian methods just to stay in power, and the long term results of that synthesis has always been ABSOLUTE FAILURE. The Soviet Union, China, Viet Nam, Cuba, North Korea come quickly to mind...there are others. Don't confuse an economic theory with a political theory, they are not the same. So....Godless communism refers to the state controlled imposition of Marxist theory by force, and always included the suppression of all faiths, not just Christianity.

inkling_revival
Off topic? Yes. Illogical? No. The gospels are not historical evidence of the life of a mythical figure. No amount of faith will make them so. All gospels are based upon the gospel of Mark. No one knows when or where they were written or by whom. Many are copies of the others with different tellings of the same stories. Odd? You bring up the gospel of Luke as some proof of a census. This says nothing to my point that Jesus did not exist.Luke shares much of his gospel writings from Matthew and Mark. The Gospel of Luke was obviously not a first-hand account, but the author of Luke is also thought to be the author of the Acts of the Apostles, in which there are several "we" passages that refer to Paul, thus the conclusion was that the author of Luke was in the company of Paul and got his information from Paul. See the pattern? Why would "Matthew" and "Luke" copy from Mark, and why do we have four different Gospels, each of which share many points but also contradict each other in critical ways? Because the Gospels after Mark were actually written in opposition to one another. Confusing? I haven't even started.


Inkling_revival
You say:
the similarity between somebody's "hero complex" theory and actual belief does not prove, or even imply, that one is the same as the other.


The story of a supreme being impregnating a women, and then having her son die, only to rise three days later to the heavens seems a bit theoretical to an active minded person. Belief proves nothing. My stating that many cultures believe the same thing, does show logical thought. It is logical to compare one fantasy to another, as I did.

One ridiculous theory is the same as another. Here is one for you: Mohammed rode a horse off a rock (Dome of the Rock) into heaven. Even though he never was in present day Israel. But it's written in the Koran, so it must be true. After all it is a belief and a theory, and it fits the hero pattern. Wow. Belief is neither provable or disprovable. I think you are acting like someone whose beliefs are challenged, and cannot distinguish between assessing a belief and refuting it.


Flawed logic indeed.

Too few to feed too many...
reminds me of the old saying, "A courtyard common to all will be swept by none".

If taxes keep rising to feed the coffers of the federal government, the desire to produce will decrease.


For Farmer's Wife @ 21:31
"If taxes keep rising to feed the coffers of the federal government, the desire to produce will decrease."

Exactly why so many Canadians migrated on temp visas in 1990's, and many of them stuck around longterm.

svpallava
Things sound like they are going away from socialism up north.
We had a debate watch party the other night, and the ideas were coming thick and fast.
Mind you, it was about half Quebecois, and half
Atlantic Maritimers.
Those "herring chokers" CAN get loud!

Baseball Doc
[Galltegfa from home here] I am not from the UK. I'm an Air Force brat. My parents were from Memphis, which is as close to a home town as I've had (grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, Xmas, etc.) But I am of Welsh and Scottish ancestry. Why do you ask?

Not to be argumentative, but according to Arthur Herman in "How the Scots Invented the Modern World," the concept of public schooling was brought to North America by the Scots in the late 18th century, before Marx put pen to paper.

knight
My point was that people confuse "labels" and then argue by analogy, or by example, or by hypothesis that A = B, therefore C. Most of the posters I have encountered everywhere on the web are arguing about "boxes." That is, they put a person/group/phylosophy into a category, and then argue.... You get the idea. Communism, Marxism, Totalitarism, Facism, Socialism, Capitalism, Statism, Republicans, Democrats, are discrete things, and ideas, to confuse the one with the other will always lead to invalid, logical results. Thus if all "communists" are "godless" what are we talking about? Marxism, Soviet Communism, Morman communal living, dorm living...? Everyone says Hitler led a "Facist" regime, yet it was called the "National Socialist Party." Franco was a facist, and also a dictator. Precise terms are required for all rational thought, all else is smoke in the wind.

Taliesin
And right you are my dear!

The "herring chokers" I referred to in my previous post were the Irish Scot
first settlers in the Atlantic Maritimes.

Knight of boo hoo
Dear, please kindly stuff a sock in it!
Happy Thanksgiving

libs and failed socialism
Stories like this usually produce one of the following three reactions from neo-liberals/socialists:

1. Frothing rage
2. Fingers in their ears loudly repeating "LA LA LA" 3. Curling up into the fetal position and rocking gently to and fro.


Hey what do you expect when reality rolls over their idiotic, catastrophic world view?

Oh, THAT
dhimmiwit observed: "The story of a supreme being impregnating a women, and then having her son die, only to rise three days later to the heavens seems a bit theoretical to an active minded person. Belief proves nothing. My stating that many cultures believe the same thing, does show logical thought."

I wasn't aware you were pointing to THAT particular analysis. I thought you were posing one of those "observe this psychological pattern" theories. My apologies for not looking up your reference. Perhaps you should post a link?

"They all have the same story" about the hero, the virgin birth, etc., is correct. The flaw in that particular approach is that they assume that it's myth.

The common appearance of a single story throughout a number of loosely-related cultural myths suggests a common origin point, and the possibility of an actual event. As you may know, many legends are based on true characters and true characteristics, only exaggerated as time goes on.

The common theme of the resurrected hero suggests there was an actual prediction made early in man's history, something like what was reported in Genesis 3.

I know you find the claim that God actually exists and is active among human affairs unthinkable (not for any valid reason, but you do nonetheless), but you should at least admit that the explanation "There is a God, and He did make that prediction" explains the common appearance of the "myth" throughout human cultural history.

dhimmiwit again
I take back anything positive I said about your scholarship or logical ability.

You're actually taking the position that Jesus did not exist?????

Sorry, you're not a scholar, you're too biased to be speaking on the subject.

Jesus is arguably the BEST ESTABLISHED historical figure of any period earlier than about 400 years ago.

Do you have even the slightest idea how slim the evidence is that Alexander the Great ever even EXISTED?

Do you know how slim the existence of Socrates is? the existence of any of the Roman emporers? How little actual documentary evidence exists for such figures?

There's plenty of documentary evidence for Jesus' existence, not the least of which is the world's largest religion that bears his title.

If you want to debate whether the reports about him are mythical or exaggerated (like, did he actually feed 5000 people using only 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread?) feel free, that's a different discussion. But to question that he ever existed? Sorry, you're not competent to hold the discussion.

Excellent column!

History has proven that socialism doesn't work; it didn't work for the Pilgrims even though they believed in God.

After the land was assigned to individual families, progress began because it wasn't forced labor; each family had something to work towards for their own benefit.
*****

Everyday I thank God for my many blessings. The gift of Salvation is first on my list.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.



Knight of Baawa
I don't always agree with what you post, but your posts almost always amuse me like no others.

Have a Happy Turkey Day, even if there's no one for you to be thankful to.

Galltegfa

inkling_revival
Having done research in Jerusalem 4 times, I believe I can intelligently discuss the theory of a man called Jesus. Perhaps you should dig a little deeper than the Bible for answers to this question.
I always accepted that he was a historical figure until I did a little digging. Walking the Via Dolorosa,(which I did many times) one wonders how the path was marked almost 100 years after the supposed event.

The first scholars to question his existence were philosophers during the French Revolution. That should be a good starting point for you. Remember quoting the Bible to claim Jesus was real is not allowed in an intelligent discussion of the subject.

Good Luck!

Tragedy of the commons part II
In the middle ages the "commons" was that part of the manor that the landlord reserved for his peasants to graze their livestock or collect fire wood free of charge. When the landlord found out it was more profitable to close down the "commons" and raise sheep or grow commercial crops, the peasants were driven off the land to live a life of poverty, homelessness, or low wage factory workers. Stossel and his right-wingers would have you believe that if we close down the "commons" and divide it up into private property, we could all become rich capitalists. Historically, that is not what happened. Land is finite and people infinite, simple Malthus 101. Look up the history of the Irish and how their English landlords treated them. America was the exception because land and other resources seemed infinite. Of course, it first had to be taken from the Indians who often resisted violently. The advantages of "freedom" and "property rights" are always in the hand of the landlord or capitalist. In the modern world, the multinational corporations and a few super rich families own most of the "commons" and they continue to grab up as much as possible. It is called "privatization." Next time you lose your job to outsourcing, downsizing, mergers, or free trade agreements, remember this and forget right-wing BS. CZ.

RE: "Tragedy of the commons part II"
Jeeze, chaka z! What you claim "Stossel and his right-wingers" would do is actually COMMUNISM!
Why don't you get an education? Prefferably one that isn't part of the American college curriculum.

Next It'll be Ehrlich
"Land is finite and people infinite, simple Malthus 101."

But you ignore the fact that Malthus was wrong. Malthus' modern avatar is Paul Ehrlich, the eternal pessimist.

Ehrlich wrote that "the battle to feed all of humanity is over ... In the 1970s and 1980s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now." His _The_Population_Bomb_ was what bombed, and even though he toned it down in _The_Population_Explosion_, he was still wrong.

There has never been a successful commons, and there cannot be. The only thing that has improved the general lot of mankind is private property. Socialism always fails, it is inherently incapable of feeding itself.

And that does not even address the higher needs men feel, the need to be free, to have control over the flow of their lives, to direct their own affairs and families. Command economies turn men into drudges and robots.

Some will say that men are incapable of governing themselves. But those who want to govern on their behalf are themselves men, and are equally incapable. So who should pull the strings? By what superiority do these latter don the robes of rule? By none legitimate, nor by any innately greater. All men are created equal, and none has the right to rule another.

Children learn less science in school
than they learn obedience and deference
to arbitrary authority.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Malthus -- Ehrlich -- Marx
Why are Socialists always so enamored of people who's powers of prediction have proven to be so horribly inaccurate?

It's like they just WANT to be wrong!
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