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Wednesday, November 14, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Don't Look to Government to Cool Down the Planet
by John Stossel
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


Recently on "20/20," I said "give me a break" to Al Gore for claiming that the global-warming debate is over and suggesting that all dissenters were in it for the money. I interviewed independent scientists who say Gore is wrong.

Some people were relieved to finally hear the other side: "Thank you, thank you, thank you for your report on climate change. … I'm sick of hearing 'the debate's over' and writing anyone who differs off as a nut. This report showed the true nature of the debate and true lack of consensus, something you can't get anywhere else."

Others were just mad: "Your 20/20 report on Global Warning made me sick. ... Your sarcastic ridiculing of Al Gore … I have lost all respect for you and your reporting."

Yes, the globe has warmed, but whether severe warming is imminent and whether human beings are causing it in large degree are empirical questions that can't be answered ideologically. The media may scream that "the science is in" and the "debate is over," but in fact it continues vigorously, with credentialed climate scientists on both side of the divide. (For example.) The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change may present a "consensus view of scientists," but the "consensus" is not without dissent.

"Consensus is the stuff of politics, not science," says Paul Reiter of the Pasteur Institute.

The scientific process ought to be left to play itself out with as little political bias as possible. Politically influenced research is poison to science.

Part of the problem is the IPCC itself. Reiter points out, "It's the inter-governmental panel on climate change. It's governments who nominate people. It's inherently political. Many of the scientists are on the IPCC because they view global warming as a problem that needs to be fixed. They have a vested interest."

Phillip Stott, professor of biogeography at the University of London, says that the global warming debate has become the new "grand narrative" of the environmental movement. "It's something for people to get excited about and protest. It's more about emotion than science." While the scientists thrash things out, what are the rest of us to do?

There are good reasons to begin with a presumption against government action. As coercive monopolies that spend other people's money taken by force, governments are uniquely unqualified to solve problems. They are riddled by ignorance, perverse incentives, incompetence and self-serving. The synthetic-fuels program during the Carter years consumed billions of dollars and was finally disbanded as a failure. The push for ethanol today is more driven by special interests than good sense -- it's boosting food prices while producing a fuel of dubious environmental quality.

Even if the climate really needs cooling down, government can't be counted on to accomplish that. Advocates of carbon taxes and emissions trading talk about reducing CO2, but they promise no more than a minuscule reduction in temperature. Temperature reduction is supposed to be the objective.

In fact, even drastic plans to cut the use of carbon-based energy would make only a negligible difference. As John Christy, director of the Earth System Science Center at the University of Alabama in Huntsville and a member of the United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, wrote last week in The Wall Street Journal:

"Suppose you are very serious about making a dent in carbon emissions and could replace about 10 percent of the world's energy sources with non-CO2-emitting nuclear power by 2020 -- roughly equivalent to halving U.S. emissions. Based on IPCC-like projections, the required 1,000 new nuclear power plants would slow the warming by about 0.2 degrees Fahrenheit per century. It's a dent."

I agree with Stott, who says, "The right approach to climate change is adaptation -- and the way to do that is to have strong economies."

We will have a strong economy if we don't give up our freedom and our money to fulfill the grand schemes of big-government alarmists.

Next week: How the private sector could deal with a global-warming problem.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Pollution vs Global Warming
.....It appears that air "pollution" is being confused/associated with global warming. The current political battle over global warming/climate change is a totally different subject and boils down to the fundamental issue of: "Does CO2 cause global warming?" Regardless, carbon dioxide (CO2) can not be a pollutant because there would be no life on Earth, as we know it, without carbon dioxide (CO2).
.....Carbon Dioxide (CO2) does not cause Global Warming because there is no past historical scientific factual evidence, data and/or records that link CO2 as a forcing factor or a cause of an increasing temperature rise climate warming period. Any current rising temperatures is not causation. ALL other global warming arguments are irrelevant, since humans are incapable of controlling any natural occurring climate change. Climate has and will forever change. There is no such thing as normal Climate. Enjoy today's climate while it lasts.
....Proxy scientific data from the past few 100,000 year 'Ice Age' terminations, reveal that the rise of CO2 levels trail the relatively abrupt temperature rise by 800-2000 years. This is the equivalent of 11-76 human lifetimes; a very, very long time.
.....There is scientific proxy evidence/data from past climate periods that reveal CO2 levels about 18 times greater than the CO2 levels present today; which were concurrent with non-rising temperatures equivalent of those present today.
.....Three major differences today, compared to previous climate warm periods, are: (1) There are now millions of humans living in vulnerable areas where there were none before; (2) most of the human's current infrastructures were built based on today's climate conditions; and (3) the presence of satellite worldwide media coverage to record every unusual weather event as a crisis.


Personally
I think man made global warming is a scam to "level the playing field" between developed and undeveloped countries.

But there seems to have been a natural warming trend which started about 150 years ago.

I agree with Mr. Stossel that adaptation is the key to dealing with the effects of warming. Take the latest victim, Bangladesh, which stands to lose significant land mass if seas rise dramatically. Based on historic trends it will take close to 300 years for the sea level to rise about a meter. During that time it would be more cost effective to build retaining walls around the shore line in order to maintain the current land mass, even if western countries paid for the wall, than to destroy the economies of the world for a fraction of degrees.

Let nature take it's course.
I agree that Global Warming nuts are running a scam, either to line their pockets, or to support their nutty environmental worshiping, or to ruin the US, but regardless of their motives, the end result is the same.

Some tiny fraction of the population gains tremendously, and some huge majority of the world suffers - as always, when some leftist agenda is brought to fruition.

Skiddles heart is in the right place, but building retaining walls around places that Mother Nature wants to flood is precisely how we got New Orleans, and Katrina.

We need to STOP trying to control the forces of nature, and start trying to predict (ACCURATELY) where the problems will be, and do something to encourage people to stay out of harms' way - NOT fix their problems after the fact.

Fires in California are predictable. Floods on the banks of a river are predictable. Beach erosion on the sea coast is predictable. Allowing people to build in these areas, without requiring them to buy insurance to cover their own losses is outrageous!

How many millionaires have beach front property, with insufficient insurance, and demand that the Government re-build their homes when they get slammed with a Hurricane? Or burned in a California Wildfire - for the 5th time? If you knew how much money was spent on putting sand back on beaches that eroded every year, you'd be sick! Who benefits? Millionaires with beach front homes. WHY!?

If we let nature take it's coarse, then the beach of today would erode, and someone else would soon have beach front property, but taxpayers would not be subsidizing them and perhaps that beach front property would drop in value to the correct price, for such a dangerous location.

Gov't Defined Concisely by Stossel
Governments are "coercive monopolies that spend other people's money taken by force."

KM
Actually, the Dutch have a history of building dikes to protect near sea level land since the 12th century. I would recommend that the Bangladesh call on the Dutch for their expertise rather than the US.

But I wasn't really advocating that solution specifically. I was really trying to demonstrate that there are adaptive changes that could be made if we have the will, and plenty of time to make the changes.

No scarey figures
Every time I see the numbers they just aren’t that scary by a time and space standard as pointed out above. Just another way to milk money from the uninformed American public(I almost said stupid public but didn’t) and if Global Warming was a problem it would likely not emininate from our Country but other developing countries that don't have scrubbers and the like. Air quality is more of a human issue than a warming issue, when you go to countries that have no EPA, you can gag. Not that .6 of a degree will a bigger ocean make, it happens it goes up and it goes down, the 1930’s had record highs and industry was practically shut down because of the depression. NBC NFL halftime aside and their report from the polar ice cap, where Matt was watching the ice melt, what a joke or O'Riley can't skate on his pond anymore because of global warming all bunk. It is likely that O'Riley's pond is polluted which makes it harder to freeze so he should be looking for a more local solution to his problem. Yes its political but it is more economic, science groups can not get funding if everything is hunky doory, so the crisis is good for them, and that is their story and they are sticking to it, Temperatures rising and so are their pocketbooks, we call that dishonest. As a Software Engineer I could have made a fortune with another Media hoax, Y2K but chose to make my money the old fashion way, I earned it.

Arrogance
For Al Bore (no typo) or anyone else to claim that the “global-warming debate” is over speaks volumes about their arrogance. A cardinal principle of the scientific method is to remain objective and freely allow your hypothesis to be subjected to testing.

The problem with self-serving pukes like Bore is that they think life itself began with their birth and will end with their passing. The earth has been around a whole lot longer then humans have inhabited it and will be around long after we have perished. And we have been studying climate change for how long?

For someone to suggest that they have wrapped-up all there is to know about “global warming” based on subjective and politically motivated “research” is pure, unadulterated BS.

We can’t even predict weather from one day to the next with any real accuracy. I often said I should have been a meteorologist; you get decent pay and only have to be right half the time!

http://klintons.com

Wake up and feel the warmth
I would heartily agree with everything posted up to this point, yes, the IPCC is made up for the purpose stated, yes it's a scam but NO, it's hardly over, it's only just begun.

Any of you who watch the regularly scheduled TV shows will recognize the inclusion of global warming propoganda being aired on many of the network shows with more to come, you can count on it.

The next shoe on the Gore Grand Plan has just dropped, see how he's going to cash in LARGE on his way to the Forbes list of Billionaires...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Gore-Venture- Capitalist.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

All the talk, all the quotes from respectable science, don't waste your time, it's here to stay and there's no stopping this train from coming down the tracks.

It's in the elementary, intermediate and high schools, it's even gotten to WALMART.. which is the USA's largest employer. WALMART has bought into it hook, line and sinker.

The fat lady has sung, we are just spinning our wheels on this subject.

It is no longer science that matters, it's the power of the propaganda, the media, entertainment and now even WALMART.......

I'm going to put another log on the fire, stick my finger in the air and go to bed. Tomorrow, I'll add another just to protest.

Please, Anything but God!
Do you have to be an atheist to believe that man is destroying the earth? Can God keep the earth as he want's it or is he a spectator. This is a scam, by the people who have run out of idea's for grant's. Remind's me of a rock band that ran out of song's so they just keep releasing greatest hit's C.D.'s. Welfare reform suck's and there are to many out of work "scientist's". As usual, it is the Lib sc*m that make it a politcal issue. They already stole civil right's. Christian's make the best right's activist's, environmentalist's, charity giver's. Al Gore is an atheist and a scam artist. Why can't people like him and michael moore just make money off their lies and go away. Stop the "blame america" for all thing's bad, Asia and is the biggest polluter with millions's or billion's of two-cycle engines and plastic usage. You can be a good steward of the environment and tell the global warming con artist's to stop with their FEAR MONGERING. Vote straight party line GOP in '08.

The debate is over...
Because Algore refuses to debate. The coward. Or perhaps he knows that he would end up looking like a fool.

By the way, FAVORLESS1, please stop using an apostrophe on every plural word. It makes you look semi-literate.

The Global Warming Gravy Train
In the past year, the wheels have come off the GW gravy train, but it hasn't slowed much yet because it has enormous momentum and because all those who will lose their reputations, their government grants and their careers when it crashes are pedaling like mad to keep it going.

The evidence is in, and it is incontrovertible:

1. Variations in atmospheric CO2 lag changes in global temperature by centuries. CO2 is therefore a consequence and not a cause of global warming.

2. NASA has admitted a major error in adjusting temperature records for the Year 2000 problem in Windows. When the error is corrected, the record shows no warming since 1998.

3. Observations now demonstrate that water vapor provides negative climate feedback through cloud formation. Water thus stabilizes climate changes, rather than amplifying them as assumed by IPCC scenarios.

4. Solar physicists have shown that global cooling is more likely than global warming in coming decades. Since cooling is much worse than warming (it could trigger the next Ice Age), we must do all we can to encourage warming. Your SUV is saving the planet!


Stossel is dead on
The science is by no means "settled". There are far too many questions that have not been answered, far too much that is not known. There is a web site I came across that is a good source of info on this subject, the URL is climateaudit.org. The guy who runs it, while he clearly has issues with this whole AGW thing, is hellbent on finding the truth. A lot of what is written there is not easily understood (they are real big on statistical analysis there, among other things), but if you read through it, it quickly becomes obvious that the global warming issue is by no means settled.

Something else that quickly becomes clear is that many of the people pushing this cannot or will not defend their positions, particularly when it comes to their data and how they got it, not to mention how it was massaged to get the results they wanted. (Something else you find out real quick is that Algore's movie has enough factual holes in it to sink a battleship, and is considered by many knowledgeable people to be just a bad joke.) All they can manage whenever someone questions their "results" is to claim that you are too ill-informed or educated to understand, you are a nut or a "denier", or are in the pay of the "energy interests" (i.e., "Big Oil", etc).

No, boys and girls, "global warming" is not about science. It's about politics and control, and bringing down Western Civilization in general, and the United States in particular.

GW-- A Modern Religious Crusade
The really amazing aspect of this GW scam is how many normally intelligent people fell for it. But then again we all remember the Y2K fiasco that turned out to be nothing. One can track this scam back to the fanatical environmentalists who have been searching for decades for a "real" debacle that would focus everyone's attention on the need to coddle the earth. Al Gore blew a natural phenomena up to a crisis spurring governments all over the world to spend billions on useless "cures" while millions of people throughout the third world will continue to live in poverty and hunger without energy to keep them warm and improve their lives. Of course, the whole phenomena is religious in nature and the amusing point is that many atheists and agnostics, who perceive themselves as enlightened because of their nonreligious beliefs, have fallen for it!
What fools these mortals be.

The Latest Pointless Doom Predictions
Let's see. In the 70's in was global cooling. In the 80's it was acid rain. In the 90's it was the ozone hole. It seems the environmentalists aren't happy unless they are predicting our imminent doom, and yet none of these issues has devastated the planet like we were warned it would. Remember when Al Gore was blaming the ozone hole for blinding sheep in Patagonia? Whether there's anything that can be done about global warming, or _should_ be done about global warming, I am so sick of the endless, and based on their track record, mostly pointless whining about the latest end of the world that I just can't take anything they say seriously. I mean, the current conventional wisdom among the ignorant is that global warming is causing earthquakes and forest fires... have we really advanced any from the days when it was thought that comets were omens of impending doom, or the future could be predicted from the entrails of a goat? I don't think so.


Another "scientific" hoax
Everyone has made some great points. I especially liked Bob's comments. "The earth has been around a whole lot longer than humans...and we have been studying climate change for how long?"

Does all this misinformation remind you of anything? It's the same with the so called "science" of evolution. It is amusing to hear people tell us how the earth began, as if they were eye witnesses. No one was there when it happened. All the theories are guesswork based on data that is millions or more years old. As Bob said, we can't predict the weather from one day to the next (even with all our fancy equipment and being in a position to actually OBSERVE IT. Yet evolutionists tell us they can determine the origin of man.

I'm still waiting
for some AGW proponent to expain to me why Mars is warming...and why that wouldn't be related to Earth warming.

Algore
I love the politics of the enviromentals - they're only rebuttal to dissent is you (the dissenter) are either stupid or greedy. They don't even consider the possiblity that those two attributes can appear without regard to their side of the political bell curve. Just watch which board seats and investment entities he is and will be involved in. There is money and power in the green world too.

Rick - While we're on the subject
of bogus science, you're a whole lot better off if you DON'T take what they say seriously.

I am 58 years old. I suffered some really bad symptoms from menopause for about 10 years, but I didn't take the hormone replacement therapy (HRT) because "scientific tests" proved it significantly increased the risk of heart disease and even sudden heart attack where there had been no previous heart disease.

A few months ago, this same group released a new report. Guess what? They were wrong. The data was misinterpreted. Sorry about that. Now I am too old to begin HRT even though there are tremendous health benefits. They discovered that when HRT was started early, there was no risk and a lot of benefits, but if it was started after menopause was complete it could be dangerous. So, I missed out on the health benefits of HRT because I listened to the "scientists".

I'm tempted to sue.

My, where are all the moonbats!!
Tongue tied by facts! Great column and great posts!

This was predicted 1962
Aldous Huxley wrote about this in 1962 and called it Scientific Dictatorship, "The Ultimate Revolution the Scientif Dictatorship". Another good book is "The Ascendancy of the Scientific Dictatorship" by Collins, which can be downloaded as e-book from a website (I'd have to look up).

Folks now worship science instead of God, permitting their giver-ment church to lead them around by the nose by merely invoking the word, "science" and all kneel to their god.

Read this, or great harm will befall you
The overwhelming number of journalists have no backgrounds, expertise, in the hard sciences, and most of them who graduated from colleges earned degrees in either journalism or liberal arts.

Certain interest groups who have an agenda to promote the charge that mankind is primarily responsible for global warming and/or pollution of the planet, feed biased information to these journalists(who already have a predisposition to believe the hype since they view themselves as "crusaders" devoted to making the world a "better place").

The traditional skepticism that once was the hallmark of fine journalism has been replaced by shameless supplicants all too eager to feast on the tripe fed to them, as if they are pigs gorging at the trough, by these groups. Journalists either are too ignorant, or simply refuse, to question the version promoted by agenda-driven interest groups.

Also, there is a pathological, perverted mindset among some that glorifies blaming man, and his inventions, for all the evils imposed on Mother Earth. Perhaps it has its origins in Rousseau's idealism and primitivism.

Stossel is correct.

The same leftists who have no problem with journalists who don't question the dogma presented on global warming, were all too critical of journalists at the time who never questioned the administration's rationale or assessments on Iraq.

Journalists SHOULD have questioned the administration on Iraq...just as they also SHOULD question the arguments of proponents of man-made global warming.

FLAVORLESS1
FYI - if you stop using the apostrophe before the "S" altogether you will be right more often than you're wrong. As it stands now, you are wrong about 99% of the time.
It's very distracting.

But Don't You Love the Talk of the Trade
The new science is full of brand new lovable expressions - carbon footprint, carbon credits, etc. Very rich fodder for the media. And a "carbon debit" is what? No one must like that term. Not savy in accounting talk? Sell a carbon credit and what do you have? There is a carbon debit that someone has purchased. But wait. If there is a debit, it is meant to be "spent" or used. Hold on there snooky, you mean that someone is going to expell carbon into the atmosphere while the governors govern? What happened to the Gorebal warming thing? How can we get rid of the warmth if someone else is going to pollute my air? Am I nuts, or what?

Gas prices are so high
because of this global warming nonsense....

this is another front in the war to destroy the usa and establish a new world order...

John
Your problem is that you are realistic, have way too much common sense, and on top of that are far too honest. Thanks for being at all.

Scientific Opinion?
Re "I interviewed independent scientists who say Gore is wrong": Newsweek magazine August 13, 2007 devoted its cover story "Global Warming Is Hoax: Inside the Denial Machine" to this very subject. Page 20: Senator Barbara Boxer attended "a meeting with the head of the international climate panel [where] as she left the meeting, a staffer had some news for her. A conservative think tank long funded by Exxon Mobil, she told Boxer, had offered scientists $10,000 to write articles undermining [reports of global warming]". Also, "Since the late 1980's this well-coordinated, well-funded campaign by contrarian scientists, free-market think-tanks, and industry has created a paralyzing fog of doubt around climate change...They patterned what they did after the tobacco industry...Both figured, sow enough doubt, call the science uncertain, and in dispute. That's had a huge impact on both the public and on Congress."

The article is long and detailed, naming names and dollar amounts. There is no question that Big Business has acted to shape public opinion against evidence of global warming caused by fossil fuels, because citizen pressure to address the problem would cut into industry's profits. When has the Right ever cared about anything but profit?

lilly: the old line
Lilly once again trots out the "Conservatives are evil" argument, as if it bears any relevance.

Lilly, did you ever stop and wonder about who is paying the bills for the scientists who argue in favor of the AGW theory?

No, of course you didn't! Because only EEEEEEEVIL conservatives are motivated by greed!

Can you please stop parodying yourself? You leave nothing for the rest of us to do!

Let us hope that AL Gore
never again runs for Public Office. The result of his failure to win and the effect that it had on his mental state has turned him into a raving lunatic. What is equally distressing is to see how many other lunatics are waiting to get on any train that represents the moon as it's destination. ;)

Factualist, your comment regarding our SUV's saving the planet had me ROTFLMAO.

Lilly
I don't know about the Global Warming but it's definitely too hot inside your own globe. What sources did the staffer had? Any idiot (you fit in that category) can say and write any accusation without supplying sources. Newsweek isn't exactly scientific in their approach to journalism and the truth.

Silly Lilly
So your science authorities are Newsweek and Barbara Boxer. "Silly" is much too weak a word to describe your addled brain.

An Observation
lilly writes: Page 20: Senator Barbara Boxer attended "a meeting with the head of the international climate panel [where] as she left the meeting, a staffer had some news for her. A conservative think tank long funded by Exxon Mobil, she told Boxer, had offered scientists $10,000 to write articles undermining [reports of global warming]".
=================================================

A name would be nice. Like the name of the conservative "think tank", the name of the staffer, maybe even the name of a single scientist that has accepted the $10,000. Until then this looks like the typical crap published by the MSM for the people that think critical reading means complaining about the use of "big words" in an article.

AL
Your scientific climate board called, said they were wrong on their data. They said you were sweating because you are fat!

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)

re: Lilly
quote: "When has the Right ever cared about anything but profit?"

I would ask a related question: when has the government ever cared about anything but exercising greater power and intrusiveness? You criticize business for funding research that tends to agree with its own self-interest; what about the government funding research that tends to agree with ITS own self-interest? Both have built-in biases towards a particular result.

re: Lilly pt 2
One other point about your ExxonMobil critique. I haven't researched your claim to see if it is true, but let's assume that it is, that XOM is offering to pay scientists to publish research that goes against the scientific "consensus" on global warming. What does that prove? It doesn't necessarily make the research *wrong*, and typically before any journal publishes research it must be peer-reviewed. Therefore, XOM is simply providing extra incentive for scientists to face likely ridicule from politicians and certain other scientists to publish peer-reviewed research. Note further that journals are not required to print research; typically a journal will publish the research that has been, as mentioned above, peer-reviewed and meets certain standards.

Obviously, ExxonMobil or any business has no incentive to fund research that hurts its own cause. But government has the same incentive system: a government researcher is incentivized towards providing results that show a) the need for more government-funded research, and b) the need for more government action.

Yet you choose to discount only the incentive when provided by business, not by government...

Climate change
The climate is changing, and always has. We have been in a warming trend since the nadir of the Little Ice Age, which was around the year 1500. Since that time, the rise has been at the rate of approximately .5 Degrees Celsius, per century.
The current average is still below the three thousand year average, and well below the temperatures during the Medieval Climate Optimum, when Greenland was, green, and inhabited.
If the warming trend continues, temperatures might again reach those that prevailed during the Medieval Climate Optimum, but, they might not. In fact, the trend could reverse, and temperatures start down again, we cannot predict with certainty.
All that said, to imagine that we little humans can control, or have even a slight influence on the climate, requires a level of egotism and arrogance that only a politician can attain.

Climate change
The climate is changing, and always has. We have been in a warming trend since the nadir of the Little Ice Age, which was around the year 1500. Since that time, the rise has been at the rate of approximately .5 Degrees Celsius, per century.
The current average is still below the three thousand year average, and well below the temperatures during the Medieval Climate Optimum, when Greenland was, green, and inhabited.
If the warming trend continues, temperatures might again reach those that prevailed during the Medieval Climate Optimum, but, they might not. In fact, the trend could reverse, and temperatures start down again, we cannot predict with certainty.
All that said, to imagine that we little humans can control, or have even a slight influence on the climate, requires a level of egotism and arrogance that only a politician can attain.

double post
"Sorry about that, Chief," the lagging site syndrome strikes again!

Dontcha love it...
...when Lilly wades into the pond mistakenly thinking that her comments are actually going to illuminate the discussion. She reminds me of the woman who called Sean Hannity yesterday defending Mrs. Lenin. Sean had numerous examples of and testimony regarding Mrs. Lenin's out-of-control temper and how this was essentially a disqualifier for president. The caller, who claimed to be a "teacher" said that those critics would say anything to take Mrs. Lenin down and that everybody loses their temper. These critics were jealous and aggrieved and they were trying to take down Mrs. Lenin because she was the frontrunner. The fact that these people were colleagues of Mrs. Lenin (like George Stephanopolis) made no dent on this person's perception. I was truly embarrassed for the caller (and for the good teachers everywhere).

It is no wonder that our children can't graduate from high school with "teachers" like this participating in public education.


-B

P.S. Factualist, you points are spot on. In fact, to completely and utterly demolish the worshipers at the feet of Al Gore the Magnificent, you could have stopped after your first point. If C02 does not cause AGW then there is zero further discussion.

Their's (correct use of the apostrophe) is a house of cards.

Carbon Credits:Mercantile control tactic
In James Michener’s novel, Poland, there is a story of how the feudal lords made it a capital offense foe a peasant to grind their own grain with a private millstone to make bread to feed their families. Today’s would be aristocrats are trying to institute a new lucrative measure of control and rationing; carbon credits. In this new scheme certain well connected bureaucrats and politicians will determine and ration how much coal, wood or petroleum products they will allow a person, business and even country to use. Under the ruse and guise of “protecting the planet” they will be the sole, non-elected arbiters on how much carbon one can use for travel, heating and industry. In short, they will control all industrial processes along with modes and amount of travel. First, they will paraphrase Henny Penny’s portentous, despairing cry of imminent doom, “The sky is heating!” Then, the only solution proffered will be absolute control of all combustion. Finally, only friends, contributors and companies in which they or their collaborators own stock will be allowed access to resources needed for industry and the economy. This resembles the government-chartered monopolies in the age of Mercantilism. In fact it will be a type of Marxist monopoly envisioned in Ayn Rand’s novel, Atlas Shrugged. And who stands to benefit for this feudal right to allocate resources and sell the permission to use carbon? It will be their new excellencies, Al Gore, Robert Kennedy and the rest of the Democratic progressive elite.

P.S Carbon Dioxide is only 1/3 of one percent, that is 0.0034 of the pressure, volume and mass of the air. 79% is Nitrogen almost 21% oxygen. All other gases< 1%.
Michael Guy

It gets worse
Now big business is offering $125,000 to anyone who can PROVE AGW.

Still no one has been able to claim the prize.

LILLY


.....Why are there more millionaire Democrats in the Senate and why is their total wealth much greater than Republican Senators? .....COLOSSUS

It occurs to me............
........that all living things have a life cycle. They are born, grow old, and die. The earth is a living thing therefore it must die, eventually.

I think this is what the earth worshippers cannot bear to face- the death of their god. It seems like a classic case of denial.

LILLY, TROLLS AND BOMB THROWERS

.....Did you know that five-fourths of over aged hippies are not good at math? ...hahahaha .....COLOSSUS

MAHATMA-MAMA

.....The Earth was born about 4.5 billion years ago ....

.....In about another 4 billion years our Sun will begin to run out of fuel and will enlarge into a Red Giant that will envelop our Earth and vaporize it and everything on it ...

.....Man is connected to all life genetically ...he is connected to the Earth chemically ...he is connected to the Universe atomically ...

.....When the end comes ...whenever that might be ...we will all return to whence we came ...the Universe ...

.....In a galaxy far far away .....COLOSSUS

SERIOUS question for lilly and the rest
of the "OMFG!!!! WE NEED TO RETURN TO THE 7TH CENTURY OR WE'RE GONNA FALL INTO THE SUN!!!!" wackos:

You guys LOVE to quack about that evil Exxon/Mobile's alleged support of scientists that DARE to look at science instead of towing the party line. You claim, ridiculously, I might add, that they offered $10,000 to any scientist that would write articles against the "consensus" view, and that they spent like $14 million over a 10 year period funding scientists who are "skeptics". You claim all this money has persuaded some scientists to simply tow Exxon/Mobile's line against AGW, and that they aren't basing their opinions on actual science.

However, why is it that you NEVER mention the $23 BILLION our own US government funneled to those "scientists" who concoct a myth about how Earth is falling into the sun? Why don't you mention the tens of millions of dollars spent by Enron, BP, DuPont, Duke Energy (formerly Cinergy), and GE -- all companies that planned on earning BILIONS of dollars selling "carbon credits" -- spent on the global warming campaign?

You claim $14 million was enough to corrupt some scientists, however how can you claim tens of BILLIONS of dollars did not have the same effect?

Don't bother answering. I know you can't rationally answer. You idiots are all the proof one needs to know that the global warming scare is NOTHING but a hoax you fascists concocted in order to destroy the US economy.

lilly writes: 14, 2007 8:32 AM
lilly writes: 14, 2007 8:32 AM

Newsweek magazine August 13, 2007 .. "Inside the Denial Machine" ….a staffer had some news for her. A conservative think tank long funded by Exxon Mobil, she told Boxer, had offered scientists $10,000 to write articles undermining [reports of global warming]". …The article is long and detailed, naming names and dollar amounts. …When has the Right ever cared about anything but profit?


DESKJOCKEY WRITES

The right also cares about abortion, Analtheism, etc.?

I remember my first outing of you with E. Longmeadow MA being originally set up as some Marxist colony. Then many other made up claims since.

This article is a propaganda piece that interjected DENIAL MACHINE some 14 times in caps in the article written with help of such left wing wackos as Eleanor Clift.

It provides such wonderful Hitler association insights of science such as, “MIT meteorologist Richard Lindzen. Lindzen, whose parents had fled Hitler's Germany, is described by old friends as the kind of man who, if you're in the minority, opts to be with you.”

“Singer, who fled Nazi-occupied Austria as a boy, had run the U.S. weather-satellite program in the early 1960s.”

The article claims Patrick Michaels and the Competitive Enterprise Institute have received money from the energy industry. Apparently both already in the anti-GloBULL warming camp and the money merely helping them get their work out. So the long article revealing all these names who got money is a sum of 2?

Back to reality Lilly, Exxon has so far given $50M to rebut GloBULL warming. To put that in perspective it is a fraction of a fraction of 1% of just the interest that could be earned on the money spent on promoting GloBULL warming by giver-ments. Should not science be forced to respond to critics?

You promote what Aldous Huxley called the Scientific Dictatorship.

The sun is warming the entire solar
system. All the planets and moons are warming. A test would be for the GW's to find out if our moon is warming like Titan at Saturn, whose southern hemisphere is warming. Titan and Saturn have no SUV or coal-fired power plants.

Also, for all the moaning and groaning about Carolina barrier islands "sinking," BARRIER ISLANDS ARE NOT MEANT TO BE PERMANENT.

I notice environmentalists often know very little about real nature. Barrier islands are temporary (on a geological scale) and not meant to last forever. If man didn't constantly replenish sand, add jettys, prop up sea walls, the barrier islands off NJ would have changed significantly decades ago.

BIG FOR INSTANCE: The ocean wants to close the Barnegat Inlet. In c. 1815, a storm closed the Cranberry Inlet in today's Ortley, NJ. In 1962, a northeaster took out 7 houses and opened a new inlet on Long Beach Island. Man, natch, filled it in.

The Barnegat Inlet only stays open due to dredging and jetty stones.

The lighthouse on Montauk, Long Island, NY, is about a mile inland now, because the ocean is moving sand from west to east on Long Island.

Enviros really don't want to end GW or preserve the land. They want to impelment some fairy tale dream they have of the world as a big, perfect Disney World with a smattering of exotics like deserts and mts. and swamps and jungles, but certainly not where they want to live.

THE INVASION OF THE GREEN BODY SNATCHERS

.....pjal ...

.....It was during Vietnam that I first noticed the power of TV media and its ability to shape public opinion ...just as a commercial can convince us to purchase a product the TV media can convince us that Global Warming is man made and that going "Green" is the answer ...

.....No politician ...not even the President ...can stand up to this powerful propaganda onslaught ...

.....Imagine one of the Presidental candidates of either Party making a policy statement that Global Warming and Ethanol were both hoaxes and scams and that Carbon footprints were a joke ...

.....Then get out your stopwatch and time how long it takes the TV media to destroy his career ...

.....In Orwell's 1984 the Government was "Big Brother" and TV was its tool ...now we have stepped through the looking glass and everything is 180 degrees out of sync ...the TV Media has become Big Brother and the Government dances to its tune ...

.....Put out the lights the party's over .....COLOSSUS

Putting your money where your mouth is:
Al Gore's allegations could be more credible if he didn't have such a huge footprint himself. As to the alleged Global warming, Let's see, when I was a kid the big fear was the coming ice age. And not to forget the evidence of El Nino, oh wait that's cyclical just like ice ages and global warming periods, Our bad, we said".....", but we were just a little wrong. But we are right now, See our labcoats? See us worshipping at the shrines of our God, the beakers, vials, and bunson burners all show who we worship, our Supreme God; our own powerful intellects...

Yes, I have seen the increased calving of the ice bergs, the high watermarks and yes, it is alarming. Yet I do not worship my own brain and I know an inteligent design far above any we can imagine will not destroy us all by flood again.

To say we can fix or maintain this planet but throwing money at it is like asking all of us to stick our fingers in the dikes. Hubris, thy name is science.

DUNCAN HUNTER ON GLEN BECK

.....On the Glen Beck show Duncan Hunter gave a one hour interview during which he gave his positions on illegal immigration and energy and the environment ...

.....On illegal immigration he gets an A+

.....On Energy and the environment he gets a D minus ...

.....He spouted off the Greenie talking points right down to supporting Ethanol production as an alternate energy source ...ie: he is a greenie-goon and an eco-freak ...

.....Based on his interview I would support Hunter for Director of Homeland Security ...

.....Tonight on the Glen Beck TV show Glen will interview Mitt Romney for one hour ...this is a must see because Glen throws no soft ball questions and will expose Mitt's strengths and weaknesses just as he did Duncan Hunters .....COLOSSUS

Katybr
Al Gore's claims might also be more credible if he wasn't tecnically illiterate himself.

Despite his false claim to have invented the internet, this clown has never taken a serious hard science class in his life.

As a degreed and practicing engineer I have nothing but contempt for this twit. He doesn't even know what qualitative or quantitative analysis is, let alone have the ability use either. He has no background in thermodynamics or optical physics, both of which are critical to so-called "greenhouse gas" theory.

The guy is like an illiterate trying to teach the world to read (you know, like all those members of the NEA who can't pass competency exams in the subjects they teach going on strike and demanding more money for being unable to do their jobs).

It's too bad he's not still just another unaffective Senator. He would be doing a lot less harm being one of Harry Reid' clones.

Al Gore supporters
How many people who applauded Al Gore's movie came to the Academy Awards program which rewarded him for his convenient lie on foot, on bicycles, or on (or behind) horses?

"The debate is over"
Translation - those who "believe" in AGW can't prove a damned thing. So they can't allow dissension. They prohibit dissension by closing the discussion.

This is no different than the way they tried to enact amnesty for illegals; in a closed-door session with representatives of La Raza there, but no native-born US citizens allowed.

We The People are once again being told what we must believe. And once again the same political faction that denounces Christianity and insists they won't have it forced upon them are instead intent on forcing their religion on the rest of us by telling us the science is established by "consensus" and the "debate is over".

The ultimate nutshell representation of the left's ignorance on this issue was provided by an MSM reporter clone (I believe it was Aaron Brown) who referred to 'deniers' of AGW as "flat-earthers". In fact, there once was a 'consensus' that the earth was flat, yet somehow that apparently non-scientific consensus turned out to be wrong, and the first scientist who "proved" it to be wrong was placed under 'arrest' for doing so.

Is it any wonder that many scientists today who disagree with the theory of AGW but depend on government grants for their livelihood are reluctant to speak up.

The same political faction that claims to be warning us of impending doom is repressing true scientific debate and discovery about the very theory they claim to promote as 'science', when in fact it has become de facto religion with all of religion's trappings, including the condemnation of heretics.

baseballdoc
My best friend and his wife(especially his wife)are big Glenn Beck fans. Since I have soured greatly on this war, and consequently on Bush, I had thought Glenn was just one more kool-aid drinker out there who equated opposition to this administration's policies on Iraq, with treason.

But at my friend's insistence, I began watching Glenn Beck program, and overall, I am most impressed.

He is an independent thinker. And while I may not agree with him on everything, I do agree with him on many issues(I am a traditional conservative, not terribly fond of the neocon philosophy on foreign policy).

I agree that ethanol is greatly hyped.

The Brazilians just discovered a huge oil deposit off their coast, in relatively deep water. Really huge...perhaps billions of barrels.

There is more oil out there. Alot more. Yes, it will be more difficult to extract...but that is why we have to graduate more engineers.

And I say this as a liberal arts grad.

wiseone
Good posts.

Apostrophes
It is truly sad to see an apostrophe put where it is not needed. For all too many years, schools have been turning out people who believe that every plural requires an apsotrophe before the ess and that every possessive pronoun requires an apostrophe even though the form of the pronoun shows that it is possessive. e.g. "its" is the proper spelling; "it's" is the contraction of "it is".

I was taught that an apostrophe is used with a plural only when the singular form ends with the letter "s."

Those "evil" millionaires
KM writes.."'How many millionaires have beach front property, with insufficient insurance, and demand that the Government re-build their homes when they get slammed with a Hurricane? If you knew how much money was spent on putting sand back on beaches that eroded every year, you'd be sick! Who benefits? Millionaires with beach front homes. WHY!?""
----------------
You need to get educated on this and also get rid of your class envy. I happen to be one of those millionaires with a beach front house at the Jersey shore and here's the reality of the situation. I can only get flood insurance from the govt and the max coverage is $500,000 to rebuild. That doesn't come close to covering rebuilding costs. This insurance costs $6,480 a year. There are no other insurers. Does the government profit from flood insurance? I don't know but since there hasn't been a major storm at the Jersey shore since 1962, I'm sure that this area of the country is wildly profitable for the govt. Also, Lloyds of London provides insurance for wind damage and fire and they are private, no government involvement or subsidies are involved in that.

You are quite wrong about putting sand back on beaches. It benefits many people, the least of which is me. These shore towns have thriving commerce, usually from small family run business on the boardwalk and side streets, the vast majority of which are clearly NOT millionaires. The only reason these towns attract visitors is for the beaches, nothing else. If there is no beach, people will not come. Simple as that. Aren't you for capitalism?


Lilly
People get paid to do research? I'm shocked!

Those "evil" millionaires
KM writes..""If we let nature take it's coarse, then the beach of today would erode, and someone else would soon have beach front property, but taxpayers would not be subsidizing them and perhaps that beach front property would drop in value to the correct price, for such a dangerous location.""
--------------
How would you like it if we "let nature take it's course" and stopped repairing roads and bridges around your house? Let's then see what happens to the value of your house. How dare you make us pay for *your* community upkeep.

Yaa global warming
With global warming coming will the orange orchards be coming back to Georgia and S. Carolina? The orchards were there before the mini ice age hit.

The Vikings were growing grape vines in Iceland will the locals start growing grapes again?

With the coming of global warming does this mean I have to dig my tulip bulbs up in the fall and put them in the freezer so they have their cold dormancy?

Only 1 "Lillyesque" post so far
I think we have darned near acheived consensus that AGW is TBS (total bs).

This could be the greatest century of mankind, doing the greatest good in the history of the world. We have oil everywhere that God apparently gave us abundantly and we have the means to extract it. It is now economically desirable even to extract it from Colorado shale deposists.

We could have all the oil we need. We could be paying 1/2 the price we currently pay for gasoline. We could build more nuclear reactors and be paying less than 1/2 the current price to heat & cool our homes. The consumer confidence in America could be at an all time high. Deficits - gone. Taxes - go to Fair Tax. Social security - spared for future generations.

It's all right at our fingertips. Its completely doable. Completely free market driven. Plus - that huge free market engine is the ONLY way to finance inovation and change for the future energy needs.

Folks, we are stabbing ourselves in the foot, back, whatever at exactly the wrong time. This near future could be filled with tremendous excitement.

Just say "NO" to greens!

The proof is at Woods Hole
If you take into account information from the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution Web site, might you conclude that the extreme end of global warming alarmism (suggested by Nobel Prize winner Albert Gore Jr.) is premature by about a thousand years?

"Some scientists have suggested that continued global warming could lead to a collapse of the West Antarctic ice sheet, which covers an area of sea and land of about 770,000 square miles, or about the size of California and Alaska combined. If the sheet were to melt—which would take ***** thousands of years at present rates of global warming ***** —sea level is estimated to rise by up to 20 feet."

and ...

"Earth's climate is anything but stable, with dramatic swings in cooling and warming over the past 1 million years (top) and past 140,000 years (bottom). This plot of climate change over time is based on chemical information collected from shells of organisms preserved in deep-sea sediments. We are currently in a warm (red) period, called an interglacial. Sea level rises as the climate warms and falls as the climate cools, as more water is locked up in ice on land. During the last interglacial 120,000 years ago, sea level was 18 to 20 feet higher than it is today."

From Woods Hole:

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=12455&tid=282&cid=9948

'Experts' for everything
I have not believed much that Al Gore has said since he told us he invented the Internet. Frankly, I don't even know his credentials for being an 'expert' on the weather, but in all the falderal, I must ask just how much money has AL GORE already received due to his 'global warming' alarmist campaign. In my opinion, all the 'research' he has been done is compiling information from others that support his own conclusions -- and politics.

There are also experts who say that the planet core is cooling due to heat being lost into space and as a result, Earth is losing its magnetic field -- and they can prove the loss of magnetism.

Then there are experts who say the problem is cyclical, and in the field of medicine, there are experts who claim to have a pill or something for almost everything -- except how to make politicians disappear.

Of course, if someone should ask if we are 'fouling our own nest', I would have to agree, but I would then ask if politician like Gore and other opportunists are not fouling it more -- along with our very lives anf liberty.

I have always voted against Gore, both Sr. and Jr. because I always felt they contained too much of something that was bad fertilizer – because it didn’t actually came from a bull.

Apostrophe
YOUNGER
Or when the word ends in "s" and is possessive. ie "Carlos' house".

But - like I said, if a person doesn't know the apostrophe rules, said person would be better off not using an apostrophe at all. They would be correct WAY more often.

Fuzzy
Once again, you got it right.
Save me from adding anything.

foxfire22
I enjoy your contributions too. Its so good coming to an article & seeing the "friendly" screen names. I actually miss some of them when I don't see them for a long while.

Beowulfe I see back now.


Correction?
Renny wrote, "The lighthouse on Montauk, Long Island, NY, is about a mile inland now, because the ocean is moving sand from west to east on Long Island." I visited the Montauk Point Light last year, took pictures from the lantern room, and it is certainly not "about a mile inland."

Lily you are a moron
Please go troll somewhere else.

ECONOMIC STRANGULATION
First of all this writer believes the entire Global Warming-Climate Change hysteria is a total hoax. The respected novelist and screenwriter Michael Creighton (Harvard hard science under + Harvard Med)refutes too the Global Warming hysteria as "non scientific".

The hysteria begs the question: “Que Bono?”
Al Gore comes from a paternal heritage aligned with Occidental Petroleum so conceivably public policy oil strategies where the topic at the family dinner table.

Nothing proposed by the Al Gore allies work. It is a scene from Don Quixote charging the windmills (profound pun in terms) because the quest is proven futile. Windpower collected and consolidated will produce something but not enough and the reliability from such an alternative is doubtful and potentially dangerous. Solar panels may warm water but forget about electrifying a house needing heat, A/C, appliances, computers, entertainment, as well as power for illumination. Converting tides into hydropower has interest but the size and maintenance of such installations will make the product uneconomic. The allies to Al Gore have made it so that new facilities producing nuclear energy are impossible. Maybe a president can exercise applied executive powers that can overrule the host of legal constraints from the lower courts until determined by the Supreme Court just what is to be the law of the land regarding nuclear power.

With all these barriers there has to be profit, so for that reason connecting the Global Warming-Climate Change cabal to a source makes sense. Those deriving the greatest advantage are the foreign sources to the US supply of petroleum. Casting the line from here to OPEC may be a long stretch but nevertheless one that is worth attempting. Clearly the Saudi monarchy has many reasons to promote Global Warming hysteria. Foreign oil producers want the US dependent on them regardless of the level of economic strangulation.

LILLY

.....Your assignment is to read THE CAPITALIST MANIFESTO by Andrew Bernstein ...and post your book report after the New Year ...

.....You will be graded .....COLOSSUS

FUZZY

.....Yes it is all within our grasp ...there are only a few flies in the ointment ...

.....The Democrat/Socialist Party ...

.....The Senate and the Congress ...

.....The Liberal TV MEDIA Propaganda Machine ...

.....The Mindless masses who get to vote ...

.....Now if you can figure out some way to raise an Army to march on Washington to runs those bums out of town and to restore our Republic and our Free Market Capitalist Economy ...call me and I will enlist .....COLOSSUS

The Left and AGW
Despite Lily's desperate posts, the Left in the form of Hollywood, Madison Avenue, NOAA, NASA, the UN,the EU, the DNC, has a stranglehold on opinion. There are plenty of liberal scientists who do not receive a dime from "Big Buisness" (whoever that is), and these scientists have plenty of deep reservations concerning the hype.

For instance,
NASA just completed a study, in which it concluded that the Artic Oscillation (a temperature oscillation located in the Artic Ocean) is responsible for the warmer than average ocean temps near the North Pole. These warmer than average temps have led to warmer than average summers and autumns, which in turn have led to a decrease in the Artic icesheets (about 2% less than the 30 year average. You won't find this study in the MSM; they will only show children crying about the lose of the artic habitat. BTW, today's high in the inland reaches of Greenland hit -56 deg F.

The Antartic has been cooling for a decade, and the total ice extent of the Antartic reached record levels this past Autumn. Yet, the MSM complains about the Larsens ice shelf, which is influenced more by the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (oscillating Pacific sea temperatures). The Pacific has been in the warm-mode since 1976. BTW, the Vostock reporting station in the Antartic nearly set a record for low temperatures. In August, this inland reporting station reported a low of -124 deg F. Yet, not a peep out of the MSM.

Great post, Cons Cass /Michael Guy
You nailed it. I'm hard pressed to add anything to this. Control of US, by means of control of our energy usage, is the real objective.

Remember how "protecting andangered species" was about keeping cuddly animals & majestic eagles from going extinct. The Endangered Species Act has morphed into a giant land-grabbing machine that can be used to serve almost any lefty cause, e.g. stopping logging based on specious evidence the "spotted owl" will die off if logging continues. The CC/AGW dogma will be an Endangered Species Act on steroids.

The logic of the "climate change" dogma as presented to us leads inevitably & directly to world totalitarianism. That is why the elite are determined to foist it upon us on the flimsiest of pretexts no matter how many times its alleged scientific arguments are discredited.

You are absolutely right about “carbon credits” as far as you go. Don’t forget that since the underlying “science” is so soft, pliable, & unfalsifiable, the required reductions in carbon dioxide emissions, & the criteria for calculating them, can be completely arbitrary & subject to political expediency. However, I don’t see that it will ultimately stop with carbon credits trading & carbon taxes; we will be micromanaged on every aspect of our energy usage. You watch; there will be energy permitting boards arbitrarily granting & denying us the right to buy & drive autos, build & buy houses, start & run businesses, & so forth. We’ll be “back in the USSR” living in “green” cinderblock apartments too hot in summer & cold in winter, riding “green” slow late buses & subways to underpaid jobs in too hot/cold buildings with poor lighting, while the elite float by in their limos, jets, & yachts.

) Ignore the point, at least until someone figures out a way to argue it away.
2)

The Warmies' Tactics 1
1) Make scary-sounding pronouncements & proclaim we must do "something" drastic RIGHT NOW because it's almost too late! This "something" of course entails drastic reductions of our freedom, attacks on private property, free enterprise, & energy use. We can't examine & carefully consider the evidence & what to do, because the emergency is urgent!
2) Anoint an agency of the grandaddy of world government wannabes to be the Only Official Scientific Authority on climate change. Staff it with cherry-picked scientists & then use their names to lend cred to scary extreme scenarios UN bureaucrats, not the scientists, decide to declare as doctrine.
3) Try to enact restrictions via multilateral treaty, so that only the President & a majority of the Senate need approve radical restrictions, & so a world government will become necessary to decide disputes.
4) Get Congressmen to buy in using such tactics as ethanol & hydrogen pork. Use their support to stipulate & establish as dogma the basic propositions that anthrogenic carbon dioxide changes climate unfavorably, and that any restriction on freedom and expansion of government is justified in the name of theoretically reducing carbon dioxide emissions by any amount. Once the presumptions & dogmas are in place, the pork projects can be cut off.
5) Skew foundation & government grants in climate research toward those rigged to conclude AGW is there. Cut off those who reach other conclusions. After all, if they think there’s no “climate change” there’s nothing more to research, right? (Many institutions will build in that bias themselves because they know which side the butter is on!) If a state climatologist has the temerity to question AGW, have the governor warn him/her to get back on the reservation pronto.

The Warmies' Tactics 2
6) Bash & trash dissenting scientists, dismiss them as “skeptics”, & insinuate they’re in somebody’s pay. Nemmine the pro-AGW scientists are being paid out of grants themselves.
7) then, turn around and claim the Republicans in power are trying to silence prominent pro-AGW scientists who oddly enough are running around blabbing free & loud as birds without any discernable restriction or threat.
8) If and when any proposals for serious development of non-CO2 producing energy sources (e.g. nuclear) are made, pick them to pieces & stymie them, because this is about RESTRICTING & RATIONING ordinary peoples' energy use, NOT generating more from "renewable" sources!
9) When people argue, dismissively announce that "the debate is over" and that there is a (cherry-picked) "scientific consensus" for AGW, so we will now move on to the fun part of taxing & regulating & restricting people.
10) Pols, never let 'climate change,' especially specific measures ostensibly intended to deal with it, be a campaign issue. Evade questions about it with pompous empty platitudes. If conservatives among your constituents ask you to reconsider, tell them "the train has already left the station."
11) Blame EVERYTHING on AGW! Tropical storms? Drought due to no storms? Too hot & humid? Too hot & dry? Too cold? Doesn’t matter, absolutely ANY actual weather can be due to AGW! Isn’t it beautiful?
12) When your scary predictions fail to come true, point out that climatology isn’t that exact (a point you never concede when making scary & extreme pronouncements), & that this also indicates AGW is happening.
13) Most of all, don’t let arguments dissuade you, because the real point is rationalizing totalitarian control over everything the little people have & do, & a world government to distribute everything.

Proof on Stossel's point
Hal Lindsey has commented in the "Planet Earth--last chapter" the sequel/update to "Late Great Planet Earth" about government vs. private management of environment.

While US DOES have environmental issues, some have been solved, and others are somewhere in process--due to private ownership of land, which can motivate landowners to go for longevity of profitability rather than max of short term.

Notable for serious environmental issues are:
(1) Russia -- many places polluted at levels way beyond even Superfund areas in US (mostly during commie rule)
(2) China -- recently, sections of Yangtze River were declared "irreversibly polluted"
(3) India -- TWO out of FIVE most-polluted places in Blackstone Institute's ranking

baseballdoc
Ahhh! My army grows to 2. Now we need to raise gas money to get to Washington DC.

FAVORLESS1
Thank you for your comments. Please, please don't use an apostrophe when writing a plural noun. I was so distressed at the misuse of punctuation that I could not ascertain the meaning of your post.

Signed,
An English Teacher :-{

Don't be Mean to Lilly
She is deluded and misguided but is not abusive and comes here with the thought that she can impart knowledge that she finds important. It isn't but that is no reason to be nasty and tell her to go away. If she goes away I will be forced to supply the mindless liberal drivel and that makes my head hurt and my eyes water. I will do it if I have to but I would rather leave it to Lilly. Thank you.

Superstitions then and now
Long ago, our native Indians did rain dances in hopes of ending droughts. Today, environmentalists drive hybrid autos in hopes of stopping global warming.

Nothing much has changed. The sun rises and falls and the earth turns. Dinosaurs come and go and so will we. What we do won't make a damned bit of difference to the earth. What we do for each other might make a difference for us and them. But don't go wacky over it.

Tadd:

Please try to keep up with the conversation. The issue human activities' contribution to GW. Everyone agrees the Earth is warming. The issue is what can humans do about it (not much) and what can we do to counteract the supposed effects (somewhat more)?

QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS
Quantitative Analysis:

100% = total adult population

To wit sixty (60%) percent actually voted in the last presidential election

The Republican-Democratic divide was 50-50; ergo thirty (30%) eligible voter population voted Democrat.

The lunatic leftos are twenty-five (25%) percent of the Democrats; ergo the loo-loos make up only seven-point five (7.5%) of the general population.

So, therefore, on a crowded bus or subway car here in NYC maybe 10 - at the most - are leftist loo-loos and if the same bus was placed in Omaha the sole leftist loo-loo would be the one that smells needing a bath.

Not Sorry
Being a victim of the public a school system I was thrown out after the 9th grade for non-attendence. I did, however, recieve my GED so excuse me if I play the victim card. Please try to look past my grammatical error and see the point. I myself don't grade posts but read the words and find the different points of view worth reading. Red spot had the best bit of constructive critisism and being uneducated will take your advice. We dumb people still have opinions and of course all of mine are right, right. Corporations pay to clean more of the environment than the complainers just like the drug companies give away more free medicine and do more research than the complainers, it's just more class warfare, which always works with the masses. Guilt Sucks!!! The wild fires in Cali. could have been reduced if not for left wing politicians and a group like E.L.F. stopping people from clearing dead wood and underbrush. The country could be 100% energy independent if not for the Democrats. God bless the good old U.S.A. I like the idea of everybody reducing their carbon foot print but the global warmites are thieves and alarmists.

Global Warming is
The new hula hoop.

KM
I agree with your post. My philosophy

If you build your house on a crack in the earth it is your own fault.

The "Global Warming " Fear-Mongering...
A few random thoughts . . .
- Some of the initiatives being proposed smack of the kind of "crazy, hairbrained schemes" that Ralph Kramden used to conjure up occasionally in an old "Honeymooners" episode.
- One has to wonder if at least part the enviro-loonies' agenda is to turn us all into primitive, unhygienic, anti-social slobs, given the blatherings of the likes of Sheryl Crow, Julia Roberts (as in the latest Vanity Fair issue) and other denizens of the Left Coast.
- And as many have noted, the "man-made global warming" canard is fear-mongering by the Left to force socialism down our throats - and they have the gall to accuse those who seek to bring forth awareness of the Islamist threat to Western civilization as "fear-mongers"?

It's hard not to be sarcastic.
But we're mature, right? We'll be sarcastic in private, and pretend to be respectful in public. It facilitates communication. Emotions are such potent things. Like volcanoes, which are the dominant factor in determining historic, cyclic climate change.

See this

http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2007/11/volcanoes.htm l

for an interesting chart. Just ignore all the stupidity that I start with. I have a compulsion. Pity me. And give me tax dollars. I'm a victim.

J

There was an article in today's
local paper about a new coal burning plant that had been proposed to be built in a "neighboring utility". The plans were dropped after the eco-idiots supported by the liberal paper out of Columbia began working against the plant.

They used the same old lame eco-idiot lies. Global Warming, followed by alternative energy sources and conservation. I would like the eco-idiots to make some new lies because I am sick of reading the same old set of lies they constantly spew.

What is bad is that there hasn't been a base load plant built anywhere in the area for 15 or 20 years and things are getting tight.

More people need to learn the facts.
Mr Stossel,
You are a knight in shinning armor for giving the people the facts on this global warming hoax. Please don't stop, because the word is getting around to people that are falling for this. The more people that are informed by the facts will eventually come to realize that this is a hoax and hopefully will hold these alarmist responsible for their lies and hidden agendas.

Keep up the excellent work!!

FUNNY HILLARY CLINTON VIDEO ON YOUTUBE
Check out http://www.youtube.com/undercvrconservative. Hillary Clinton and Larry David in a spoof of CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM. This is what we Hollywood Republicans do during the writers strike...we make youtube videos. Lol. Enjoy.

Black holes
Scientists have been discovering new black holes heretofore unsuspected. Obviously, we have to change what we're doing to stop these black holes from forming.

Black holes are spots in space that have such strong gravitational attraction that not even light can escape them. That strong attraction sucks in matter in its orb of influence and the black hole grows and gets stronger as its mass increases. Eventually, the black holes may fuse with each other and become so strong they suck in the entire universe.

The universe as we know it will end. Is anybody doing anything about that? No! We must begin addressing this problem before it's too late or in 20 Billion years or so the universe will be a tiny ball of such dense material we won't be able to get off the ground because of the strong gravity.

May Al Gore has a solution. Should we ask him or just wait for the possibility of the next big bang?

I am definitely applying for a government grant to study this problem. I mean, this is real. The universe may even now be collapsing and speeding toward those black holes.

Anybody want to buy some gravity offsets?




Hope Doesn't float
The last point from mij61 is the most important and that is these people will not be held responcible. Who will do it? A congressional investigation, the main stream media, the united nations, hollywood, the scientific community, no on all counts. Republicans are enjoying taxation without representation on all issues of importance by their congressmen and senators who look like they saw a ghost when you mention the global warming. They will not be held responcible and that might be the biggest shame of all, except looking at al gore like a scientist which is like rosie o'donnell being your ethics professor.

Eco-Idiot Myth 6
Continuing my series in outstanding Eco-Idiot Myths. This one deals with one that has been pervasive for decades and is still being used today and that is:

Solar and Wind combined with conservation are the answer to our energy needs.

I have already addressed solar and wind power including it's major drawbacks, cost and area availability. This discussion will be centered on "conservation".
cont

pt 2
Conservation is a term that the idiots bandy about frequently and it is one that is NEVER defined. The term comes for the word "conserve" which is a verb when used in this context meaning to use sparingly. To the average eco-idiot this means "to use no more than I do". To Albore, that means to use no more than a small city.

Actually, most people think of conservation as doing simple things like turning off lights when leaving a room or buying a washing machine with a high "energy rating". The latest fad is replacing you light bulbs with the new CFLs which use about 1/3 the electricity of the old bulbs. While it is true that all of these things represent "conservation", it is more like saving a spoonful of water from a lake that is dropping a foot a minute through open floodgates. Let's take the comment that I posted earlier as an example. A large base load plant was "stopped". It turns out that the proposed plant is a 1300 MW plant. Let's see what it would take to offset the loss of that plant by "conservation".

Replace 100 watt bulbs with 26w CFL

Assuming the average house has 20 bulbs to be replaced, it would take 16,883,000 houses to change out their bulbs. With a population of 4 million people this will not cut it. This also assumes that the lights would have all been on before, which is obviously not the case. In a realistic scenario with 4 family members only a few of these lights would have been on and that would have been at night when electricity usage is at a minimum. Bottom line, if every household in SC changed every light bulb in their house to CFLs, the resulting saving would not amount to a micro-fraction of that 1300 MW plant that was "stopped". The fallacy the greens are promulgating with CFLs is that "lighting" is a major power user and this is simply not true.
cont

pt 3
In the Southeast the major power usage comes from heat pumps. For those of you from other parts of the country not familiar with these, they are a type of central air conditioning unit that is able to reverse cycle and become a heating unit in the winter. They are the most efficient method of heating and cooling a house in areas where the outside air temperature remains above 32°F during most of the year. They do not work every well at temperatures below 32°F which is why you do not see them as much up North. The average size house is app. 1700 sq ft. Assuming it is well insulated, a 3 ton heat pump would be required.

3 ton heat pump draws about 500 watts when running, they will run in a well insulated home about 2 minutes out of every 15 minutes so you can assume that the "average draw" is 4KW. Based on these numbers 325,000 heat pumps would need to be shutdown. Or to put it in perspective, to "conserve" our way past this one plant, 1/3 of the homes in SC would have to do without any heating and cooling.

When you look at other parts of the country that do not use heat pumps (or air conditioners) the next largest household power user is the hot water heater. It would take a whole lot more of households taking cold showers to "conserve" your way past 1300 MW.
cont

pt 4

Another way of looking at conservation is to take it to it's ultimate end. Assuming that we are not going to build any more power plants (California) and everyone does this so that one State can not buy from another, the amount of available electricity is then fixed. This means that in order to start a new business or a new home the new location must get it's electricity from the existing users. Imagine you are a typical family with 2 children. As those children grow up and move out you will have to reduce your electrical usage by the amount that they will need to establish their own house.

So in the end, conservation is really just another word for rationing. When the government rations a commodity another class of winners and losers are created. After all, someone has to suffer so Albore can power his small city.

Folks
I has been carefuly monituring yur puntuation and has confluded that I "WILL" allows yu to post here futher GRIN

NY PUBLIC LIBRARY
Newspaper Photo-Op here in NYC shown a worker at the main Public Library facility high on a ladder replacing a ceiling fixture consisting of 25 +/- conventional lightbulbs with the new curly mercury florescent CFL bulbs. This is part and parcel of the NYPL quest to be in alignment with the AlGore hysteria. Now did the NYPL institution make the investment using cost-benefit analysis relative to replacing good working functional lightbulbs costing pennies per unit versus the new CFL bulbs at high cost per unit to determine the net-net advantage. If so the report would have included a chart or narritive explaining the time value projection to when the costs and savings would break even profitability. Pay back profitability were not factors in the AlGore equation.

Scientific concensus is not science, rather it is politicing for recognition, tenure, and getting grant money for dog and pony show projects.

JAMES
If they got the bulbs from Wal_mart who is selling them at a huge discount ($8.00/4-pack) they will save money. The bulbs supposedly will last up to 2 years where as the old incandescents only last weeks and use 3 times as much electricity.

They do make economic sence if you can get them relatively cheap. The will not however, solve the nation's energy problems.

This is the typical statement the eco-idiots make:

What that means is that if every one of 110 million American households bought just one ice-cream-cone bulb, took it home, and screwed it in the place of an ordinary 60-watt bulb, the energy saved would be enough to power a city of 1.5 million people.

From the earlier calculations that I did you can see that this is at best, a bald-faced lie.

THX: Vic writes:
Not privy to the bulk purchase contract in the NYPL but sensible outcomes indicate the new bulbs are priced at a premium. Now the execs at Phillips or GE may have donated the bulbs as part of a marketing or feasibility analysis study.

My theory is that the Global Warming-Climate Change hysteria is secretly being financed by OPEC and the Saudi monarchy. No proof! This is but a nose in the air belief.

Correction
I used the term "Blackstone Institute" in my previous post; the correct name is BlackSMITH Institute.

Doesn't change the points though, government may CAUSE but never SOLVE environmental issues.

Plus, I question whether Gore's loss in 2000 "made him a raving lunatic"--my impression is that he was already that prior to 2000!

I read somewhere that - - - -
- - there was considerable bad news for actor Leonardo DiCaprio, as FoxNews.com's Roger Friedman reports: His environmental documentary, "The 11th Hour," has been a total bust at the box office. After 18 days in release (as of 9/5/07), the film had grossed only $417,913 from ticket sales.
Haven't seen any updated info -- doubt if it's necessary. But I somehow doubt that the media will bother mentioning it...

Democratic government won't fix it
...because democratic government is by the people. You know, the people who'd rather die than use cloth diapers, who resent paying a few bucks disposal fee for used oil, who would think you mad if you suggested turning the thermostat up ten degrees during the summer. The same people who can't be troubled to repair anything they own, but would rather just toss it away and buy a new one.

You know them. They're the same people that ruined the drainage pattern at Cahokia, bringing on disastrous floods. The same people who cut down the very last tree on Easter Island centuries ago. The same people who set massive fires across the Southeast to encourage large populations of game animals. The same people who exhausted the land around Copan and caused their own die-off. The same people who hunted countless species to extinction in every continent inhabited by human kind.

On some occasions, presumably in smaller ways, it'll be you; other times it'll be me.

People are never going to fix this. Even if you instituted a dictatorship dedicated to compelling repair of the environment, the leaders would quickly substitute maintenance of political power in their own hands for the laudable goal of saving the planet. I suppose a massive die-off might help, for a time. Anybody *really* want that?

Human nature, folks. Without God, our case is hopeless.

And of course, this is all assuming that we are the cause of this current warming trend. Until scientists can identify the causes of other historical climate changes, their credibility on this one is suspect.


hwm982xx
How nice to read facts regarding long-term relationships of climate, CO2 and history. You again re-inforce my belief that the sky is NOT falling, even if Chicken Little has convinced most of the donkeys in the barnyard.

Tallil2long
Your last sentence on AGW by itself, is a garbage can full of ice emptied over the head of any knee-jerk global warmer. Long term trends can be studied. In the short term, they can't even predict next month. Yet where is the AGW who can point to any historical basis for predicting warming? CO2? Nonsense. As noted above, it follows warming, not causes it. Recorded temperature trends? Over the long, medium and short terms, temperatures trend. So what? You might as well try to predict the roll of a die by a study of past rolls, as predict future climate by the AGW current arguments.

To Savage99
I'm prepared to be convinced about anthropogenic global warming, but the facts presented so far and the demonstrated level of climate understanding, does not yet compel my belief.


The free market always fixes everything
Yeah, so what if global consensus has been reached on human-induced climate change? If an Indonesian family is drowning because of fast-rising seas, or African peasants are dying because of intensifying droughts, they can just boycott the oil and coal companies. Polar bears - and the little Nemo's on Great Barrier Reef - just need to have the 'dead hand' theory explained to them. Problem solved.

(sarcasm off)

Opposition to concerted action on climate change flies in the face of both Christian traditions and plain common sense. We leave to government projects whose general benefits vastly exceed the proprietary benefits. In a word: infrastructure. What, in the name of all that's good and decent, could be a more fundamental societal building block - a more critical piece of infrastructure - than a safe, healthy environment? A stable, sustainable planet?

And what could be less Christian than continuing to indulge in consumptive gluttony, long after its harmful effect on God's green earth has been so thoroughly documented?

UN panel gives dire warming forecast

NT-Global warming is “unequivocal” and carbon dioxide already in the atmosphere commits the world to sea levels rising an average of up to 4.6 feet, the world’s top climate experts warned Saturday in their most authoritative report to date.

“Only urgent, global action will do,” said U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, calling on the United States and China - the world’s two biggest polluters - to do more to slow global climate change.

“I look forward to seeing the U.S. and China playing a more constructive role,” Ban told reporters. “Both countries can lead in their own way.”

Global Warming 101

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/un-panel-gives-dir e-warming-forecast




So what if it gets hotter?
It is fairly easy to cool it back down.

http://video1.washingtontimes.com/politics/2007/09/scientis t_tells_senate_fix_glo_1.html

The eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines in 1991 injected a significant amount of sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere, lowering the Earth's surface temperature by about (half a degree) the year following the eruption.


... Because these techniques mimic natural phenomena, we know more about how quickly and well they work than we do about the efficacy of attempting to reduce greenhouse gases. We have measured the effects of the natural processes and can state with considerable certainty, bordering of complete certainty, that they will produce the result sought. Although the effects of greenhouse gas reduction would occur over a period of no less than decades and more likely centuries, the effects of geo-engineering can (and will) be manifest in a matter of weeks after application.


There is Danger, but not from Climate
The Danger stems from eco-extremism which is faith based and not fact based...

Its the new order, aryan superiority all over again....

The persecution of the deniers (the earth is not flat)is the first danger sign...Krystal Nacht is soon to follow, if common sense doesnt restore

Gore even looks a bit like young Hitler...

To NewAmericanCenturySucks
I agree that Christians should not live in gluttony.
But tell me, is it 'Christian enough' to turn up your thermostat to 85 in the summer? Do you do this yourself? Or must a Christian turn off the A/C entirely? Is it enough that a Christian drive a high-efficiency gasoline auto, or must a Christian drive an electric car in order to please God? Doesn't owning a computer (all full of chemicals and materials harmful to the environment, wasteful of energy, and requiring pollution just to produce) violate Christian principles?

You see the issue. When you seek to set 'Christian' standards on low-footprint living, you dictate conscience... thereby usurping the role of the Holy Spirit.

It is well to ask a friend considering purchase of (for example) a massive inefficient SUV 'Do you *really* need such a vehicle'. But that is all. The scriptures provide no clear teaching to condemn him if he does choose to purchase the thing.

To John Konop
Did you know that archaelogists looking for neolithic coastal settlements in Scandinavia have to look both miles inland AND tens of meters under the sea in order to find them?


Source:
'Encyclopedia of Barbarian Europe', by Michael Frassetto
I don't have the book in front of me, but the passage is somewhere around p. 134 IIRC.

To Tallil2long
Thanks for responding.

I agree heartily: whither the line between gluttony and ‘Christian’ conservation? Enter secular law, turning subjective norms into objective standards. You’ve turned my point - that concerted action on climate change is sensible, Christian, and overdue - into a conclusion that government must lead.

On another thread, someone spoke of buying fur coats and SUVs specifically to infuriate environmentalists. Versions of this idiocy are alarmingly widespread in your country; increased resource consumption is being rationalized on ever more creative grounds. Gluttony should be condemned as a deadly sin, like in the Bible - not embraced, like in American neo-con ideology.

Stossel argues government is inherently useless. I live in a Canadian province whose energy needs are met entirely by hydroelectric and wind power. Brazil successfully moved from gasoline to sugar cane ethanol. Neither transformation would have occurred without public investment.

The QWERTY keyboard in front of you was designed to slow typists down. Free market ideologues must explain why the market hasn’t adopted a better design. Perhaps markets find local maximums only. To jolt us out of our rut, and onward to new plateaus, we sometimes need government investment. Like America’s moon shot.

Or conserving global ecosystems.

AGW and Apostrophes
If Gore is a scientist, the notion that WE can cause climate change means the Indians must have had it right after all-the Rain Dance worked. Or at least Gov Huckabee's prayer did. ;)

Apostrophes-Singular possessive: between the last letter of the name and the "s": "Joe's Diner". Or, "the cat's tail".

Plural possessive-outside the "s" as in "mens' room". Or in the case of the word "theirs", no apostrophe needed.

In a contraction: The expression of "It is", is "it's".

"Its" as a possessive does NOT use the apostrophe-"the dog chased its tail."

Class dismissed! :)




Agenda 21
And we are not to question the motivations of oil for food? Google agenda 21. The UN global socialist have had this in the works for some time. Old Gorby (the Russian one) is a master politican.
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