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Wednesday, November 07, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
With Government Money Come Strings
by John Stossel
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


I apologize.

Last week, I wrote enthusiastically about Utah's chance to have school vouchers. By now, we know whether voters said yes or no.

Either way, while a voucher experiment is a good thing, and far superior to a government-run monopoly, I wonder if I wasn't too enthusiastic.

As Sheldon Richman, editor of The Freeman magazine and author of Separating School and State, puts it: "'Public' money going to private schools cannot bode well for the future of those schools. Note that the Utah law requires private schools to give a nationally recognized exam -- one approved by the national education establishment. But he who controls the exam controls the curriculum. Schools will have to teach to the test. That will limit innovation and make the private schools more like the public schools."

Maybe the government can't really create choice affirmatively.

We know that government money comes with strings. Federal highway funds came with requirements for seat-belt laws and 55-mile-per-hour speed limits.

In the 1970s, Grove City College in Pennsylvania was ordered to certify that it complied with Title IX, which outlaws sex discrimination. The private liberal-arts school was not accused of discrimination but nevertheless objected to the order on grounds that it took no federal money. The feds insisted, saying that since some students received federal scholarships, that amounted to an indirect subsidy from the government. Grove City took the case to the U.S. Supreme Court -- and lost.

It would be astounding if the government didn't put conditions on its grants. In fact, not to do so would appear irresponsible. That's a good reason to avoid taking government money in the first place.

Even without direct conditions, government money taints its recipients. Education scholar Charles Glenn wrote in 1989, "For those who believe strongly in religious schooling and fear that government influence will come with public funding, reason exists for their concern. Catholic or Protestant schools in [France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Great Britain, Canada, and West Germany] have increasingly been assimilated to the assumptions and guiding values of public schooling. This process does not [even] seem to be the result of deliberate efforts . . . but rather of the difficulty, for a private school playing by public rules, to maintain its distance from the common assumptions and habits of the predominant system".

Once vouchers are widespread, we can expect the education establishment, especially the teachers' unions, to find ways to turn the program to its advantage. It won't have to look far for ideas. Several years ago the New Democrat, published by the Democratic Leadership Council and Progressive Policy Institute (the "moderate" Democrats with whom Bill Clinton has long been associated and an organization started by my brother-in-law), recommended that any voucher program force private schools to admit all children and "meet or exceed specified performance standards to continue receiving taxpayer funds".

The editorial, titled "Counterpunching on Vouchers," stated: "Such an amendment would effectively turn voucher-supported private schools into public charter schools. A public school is not defined by who 'owns' it, but rather by two features: universal access and accountability to the public for results." In other words, voucher money is a foot in the door for the "educrats."

If vouchers contain this potential danger, what can be done to help get kids out of dismal government schools? A better alternative is a tax credit for any parent who pays for private schooling or anyone else who helps put child through non-government schools.

Of course, to us libertarians, the best idea is to separate school and state altogether.

How would parents afford tuition? Well, they'd have more money if they weren't taxed so heavily to pay for incompetently run government schools. Already, many private schools do a better job than government schools for half the cost. Throughout Africa, parents far poorer than Americans pay to send their children to for-profit schools. For Americans who truly lack tuition money, private charity would help, as I do through the wonderful nonprofit, Student Sponsor Partners.

Education is too important to be left to government. The freer parents and entrepreneurs are, the more innovative American schooling will be -- and the more kids will learn.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Vouchers lost
but Stossel hits the target. Thanks for your thought provoking and stimulating essays. I am sorry vouchers lost because I am in favor of anything that weakens a government monopoly. Now I do feel a bit better.

How about
HOMESCHOOLING?

Define, discuss then make OUR rules...
The key to restoring parental control over education lays with recognizing the need to wean ourselves from government money in order to cut those strings. We can shape legislation anyway we want. It's our government.

But if we continue to allow the teachers' unions to use their tremendous wealth to lobby and consequently set policy, we'll never get out from under this dysfunctional educational system.

By clearing defining this issue, discussing our options, then establishing the rules -- our rules not the unions' -- we can create an educational system that will serve our children's futures.


Oops...
By "clearly" defining this issue...

No Child Left Behind
No Child Left Behind - RICHARDSON/PAUL scrap or BUSH/CLINTON revise?

NPR…“Some say fix it; others say tweak it; Sen. Hillary Clinton says reform it. I also have two words for No Child Left Behind: Scrap it,” Richardson said…

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/no-child-left-behi nd-richardsonthompson-scrap-or-bushclinton-revise





Vouchers??
Yes, by now we all know that the school voucher vote was lost in Utah. I am of two minds on that. It saddens me that the government and the school bureaucracy won, but then again, it keeps the private schools private. That has always been my fear for vouchers. Ultimately the private schools would become the same as the public schools.

My solution is, and has always been, the best solution for public schools is to eliminate them entirely. Make ALL schools private and tell the feds to stick it. The Grove City case makes no sense what-so-ever, but Stossel has said the magic words, 1970s. We know that if the court had gotten much more liberal then they would have had to rename it to “Standing Committee of the National People's Congress”. (supreme court of Red China). That case is ripe for revisiting now that the court has moved back to the center somewhat.

konop
shut up

Voucher proponents lied
And Utahs were bright enough to see it. Claims that it would solve overcrowding were ridiculous, as the private schools in Utah already have waiting lists, and, of course, entrance requirements.

Most counties in Utah have no private schools at all.

You really can't anticipate ....
a great country when all of us little piggies concept of fredom is to push our way to the trough and hopefully deny others access. The party is just about over, one can be totally oblivious to basic facts of existence. We can propagandize and declare against human nature and say it is mutable as do all socialists and statists. In the end the truth is inevitable. The universe operates on ineluctible principals. It is as it is.

Radioactive super $$$
Thank you, John; that's a misgiving I always had about the voucher idea. Before you know it, voucher recipients would be required to expunge all mention of JudeoChristianity, or to allow the NEA/ATF to organize, or you-name-it.

You know, ordinary $, the kind you & I have, can only be used or witheld. The only incentive the busienss has to please us it we take the $ elsewhere; we can't make them submit to a laundry list of demands because they took one. But Govmt $$$, esp. Federal, have super powers. If $1federal gets into any part of a school or hospital, the entire institution becomes subject to an encyclopedia of nitpickery & political correctness, often long after the fact. In the Grove City College case, the gvmt didn't have to give the school $ on a take it or leave it basis, no, the fact one student who got $1fed somewhere was enrolled gave the bureaucrats & activists carte blanche to dictate to the school.

In some places, such as the Carolinas, there are state-subsidized early childhood programs (read that tax-supported daycare with indoctrination) taking hold. With those grants come weird strings. A daycare in NC was cited a few yrs ago because a plastic toy soldier was found in the sandbox.

Imagine a parochial school was told they couldn't teach the Book of Romans because certain passages offend certain interest groups. Imagine a school was told what take they could have on matters like "climate change," the sexes & human sexuality, history, and so on. It's on our doorstep.

We don't need these radioactive government $$$ to caontaminate private & church schools, we need to keep our own, thank you.

Tax Credits are the way to go ...
Stossel nails it. No strings tax credits for tuition in private schools are the way to go. This is an interim step to the abolition of the public school system. The only intervention by the state that should be a requirement that parents provide an education for their children just as they are expected to provide food and shelter.

America's motto in education and all thinks should be "Trust The People".

homeschooling
Home schooling sounds quite noble.

At least one of my nieces homeschools her kids, a fact which impressed me greatly--until I received a handwritten note from her. The note contained MANY misspelled words; I can only assume her kids won't be corrected if they, too, misspell a few words.

I like the idea of home schooling, but it's just a little scary.

Taking lessons from Hillary, John?
Cool how you can take both sides of an issue in just under one week!

I don't care how many strings the Fed puts on their dollars, it's still up to the individual teacher and school how much emphasis they place on each subject, while still passing those tests.

One can teach sex education - without teaching the gory details of gay love, and offering free condoms & birth control pills to 13 yr old girls.

Just as one can teach American History - without slanting everything to suggest America is the bad guy in every conflict. And I'm pretty sure we can teach English - without being forced to accept Ebonics, too, even when teaching to the lefties test requirements.

As long as there is a choice, there will be serious, and not serious contenders for the money. Vouchers are the first step towards getting that choice.

There may come a day when vouchers are not enough to escape the indoctrinating ways of the left and the NEA, and we will simply have to come up with another method when that day comes. For now, Vouchers are the only other option on the table, and I'll take what I can get to escape the NEA.

Promising that they will corrupt that system, too, is not enough of a reason to stay with the current system.

Don't let perfection (government completely out of the Education business) keep you from supporting the one thing that might actually help break their stranglehold on our children.

Changed vote to one star
I thought something sounded fishy with this case. After a little research we find that Mr. Stossel doesn’t have all of his facts together here. First off, the case was in 1984 over a law enacted in the 70s dealing with Sports. That good old infamous Title IX mess that everyone has come to hate. The case ONLY applies to Title XI and ONLY to the financial departments of the College. This was held by the court only because of the specific wording in the Title XI law which included wording for financial aid to students. This was NOT a constitutional issue. And if you were a heartless college administrator at a private school the out would be to NOT allow any federally subsidized students.
cont

pt 2

GROVE CITY COLLEGE v. BELL, 465 U.S. 555 (1984)

Held:
1. Title IX coverage is triggered because some of the College's students receive BEOG's to pay for their education. In view of the structure of the Education Amendments of 1972, the clear statutory language, [465 U.S. 555, 556] the legislative history (including postenactment history) showing Congress' awareness that the student assistant programs established by the Amendments significantly aided colleges and universities, and the longstanding administrative construction of the phrase "receiving Federal financial assistance" as including assistance to a student who uses it at a particular institution, Title IX coverage is not foreclosed merely because federal funds are granted to the students rather than to the College's educational programs. Pp. 563-570.
2. However, the receipt of BEOG's by some of the College's students does not trigger institutionwide coverage under Title IX. In purpose and effect, BEOG's represent financial assistance to the College's own financial aid program, and it is that program that may properly be regulated under Title IX's nondiscrimination provision. Under the program-specific limitations of 901 and 902, the College's choice of participating in the ADS rather than the RDS mechanism for administering the BEOG program neither expands nor contracts the breadth of the "program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance." The fact that federal funds eventually reach the College's general operating budget cannot subject it to institutionwide coverage. Pp. 570-574.
cont

pt 3
3. A refusal to execute a proper program-specific Assurance of Compliance warrants the Department's termination of federal assistance to the student financial aid program. The College's contention that termination must be preceded by a finding of actual discrimination is not supported by 902's language. Pp. 574-575.
4. Requiring the College to comply with Title IX's prohibition of discrimination as a condition for its continued eligibility to participate in the BEOG program infringes no First Amendment rights of the College or its students. Pp. 575-576

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&v ol=465&invol=555

Abolish mandatory attendance
policies and let all schools be private.

Let people keep their real estate taxes, donate a portion from landlords' real estate taxes for renters, and allow people to pay direct tuition, buy books, and run Bds. of Ed. as Bds. of Trustees.

The ed. unions will die, fed. and state mandate will become moot, and mission statements can return to dedicating schools to skills and performance instead of psychology's amorphous "achieving potential" or "developing an integrate personality" which means exactly?

Pub. schools are sewers of drug dealing, even in elementary schools, irresolutely regulated violence, and mushy academics that, in NJ, send 40% and upwards of freshman college students into remedial courses of all kinds.

School costs
One fact to consider is that private schools currently "compete" with "free" public schools. Essentially parents pay twice for their children schooling as things are: once for public school through taxes and again for private school through tuition.

If public schools were abolished (say gradually phased out over a period of five to ten years), along with the taxes that pay for them, then parents would only pay once for school.

Also with more private schools there'd more competition and, therefore, lower tuition costs overall. This happens with all goods and services provided privately.

Finally, I doubt there would be a shortage of charities to support the poorest families who couldn't afford tuition. Not to mention that it's not uncommon for poor communities to pool resources in order to establish their own schools.

Vouchers lost in Utah
The reason is that a majority of voters want the government to control education.

We have corrupt legislators in office at all levels of government because a majority of voters want them as representatives.

We have the creep toward socialism because a majority of voters believe the government will take care of them and they will not suffer consequences.

It all boils down to the voters. All the above could change if enough people voted for freedom over government parenting and forced programs. But a majority says "no", I want the government in charge.

How a majority of people could reject freedom is beyond me, but they regularly do.


Federal money always has strings
As a side note to all this:

The 150 anniversary of the War Between the States is coming up in just a couple of years, but we can't refer to it as the War Between the States. If we do, we will lose federal funding in South Carolina to help for the celebration. We also can't refer to it as Lincoln's War or the War of Northern Aggression. Of course Lincoln always referred to it as "The Rebellion".

School vouchers
What is a parent to do? I have three children ages 11, 9 and 6. All attend public school because the average tuition for a private school in this area is $15,000. When I speak with their teachers, it is obvious that they were trained by the Teachers' Union to provide a basic education and no more. There is very little enthusiasm or creativity.
School should be an enjoyable place where kids can learn and grow. But more importantly, they should be challenged to be the best that they can be. Under the current system, this will never happen. Teachers' Unions will never allow a teacher to acknowledge that someone is better at something than someone else. Until we have real competition in our education system, the situation will only get worse.
My only comfort for my children is that I take an active roll in their education.

WTF???!!!
I read Stossell's column and most of the posts, and I have to ask(as I haven't seen it asked) what is government money? When did the government start making money? They steal our money, dribble it back to us in drips and drabs, and tell us they are doing us a favor, and we talk about it like it is the truth. THE GOVT HAS NO MONEY! By the way, we are the government.

We need to return to the fundamentals of the Constitution, stop getting our talking points from "libertarians" who don't fully understand the constitution, (sorry John, I truly like you) and retake our country from the socialist movement. Stop believing that the government is giving you anything. You are just stealing from your neighbor.

Stossel Is Right
Federal money always comes with Federal strings, sooner or later. However, I think vouchers would be the first step towards privatizing education, and therefore is preferable in the interim to what we currently have.

It is also my observation that the bigger the school system, the more dysfunctional it is. My kids attended public school (many years ago) in a small school district; they scored very well at the national level but only marginally well at the local level. The adjacent school district, in which several million lived did not fare anywhere close to ours on the national level. So perhaps another interim fix is to break up the school districts into more manageable sizes. Our community at the time was roughly a population of 10,000. That meant that there was one elementary school, one middle school, and one high school. It was much easier for parents to keep tabs on what was happening in the schools and make our voices heard in such a small environment.

A Non Issue
A new longitudinal study by the Center on Education Policy, focusing on low-income students in urban districts, finds the following things about public versus private schools:

Students who attend independent private high schools, parochial high schools, and public choice high schools do not perform better on four subject-area achievement tests than their traditional public school counterparts.

Students who attend any type of private high school are no more likely to attend college than those who go to traditional public high schools.

Students who attend private high school indicate no more job satisfaction at age 26 than their traditional public high school peers.

Private school students are no more civically engaged at age 26 than are their traditional public high school counterparts.

Jack Jennings, president of the Center on Education Policy, concludes, "We would advise state legislators not to spend a lot of time on creating voucher programs, but to improve public schools. We would urge much greater attention to parental involvement in their kids' school careers."

Enough with this garbage about vouchers. Stop wasting our time and money. Stop trying to destroy public education by starving it. Spend our money on making public schools even better.

GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF SCHOOL

.....Governments and Schools go together like Statism and indoctrination ...

.....No Government program ...not "No Child Left Behind" ...or "School Vouchers" is going to improve education ...

.....Only when Government and Teachers Unions are totally out of the schools will education improve ...

.....COLOSSUS

Vic:
Do you know how GCC reacted to the ruling? They told the Feds to take their BEOG money and shove it, because they would find other non-governmental sources of funding and they did.

School Vouchers

At the present time a huge amount of money is spent each year for each student. That number is a closely guarded secret, but let’s say it is $10,000 (at least!). Hold that number constant, give $3,500 (or some such number) with each voucher, and give the remainder to the public school that student would have attended.

If 25% of the students in a 28 member class decide to attend a better school, the remaining 21 public school students would now have over $12,100 per student ($255,000 for the group), in a smaller class.

Eureka! A smaller class with much more money to spend per student!

Lumberjack739
That's great, but I understood that they were not getting any federal money to begin with. It was a few students that were recieving federal aid. That was what the court based their ruling on.

Did they actually ban students that were getting federal aid?

Vic
I should hope so. We need to teach our children that we do not get by on handouts. We need to stop stealing from each other, and we need to stop depending on "Federal funds" to help us get by.

Question: did we have education before 1920? (The approximate date that we began compulsory education). This is obviously rhetorical. A community put up a school and the community paid for it either privately or through locally mandated taxation. If we get back to the era of local taxation for social needs (federalism) and get the FEDERAL government out of our pockets we will regain much of the rights and freedom we have abandoned in the name of a free ride.

Polly on homeschooling
Polly, you should do a little research if homeschooling scares you. Homeschooled children do as well as their peers on most any measure, and do a bit better than public school students

rjas2330
I would like to see that also, but unless we actually get a lot more originalists on the court or we have an armed revolution, I don't think it is going to happen.


Vic writes:
Lumberjack739
That's great, but I understood that they were not getting any federal money to begin with. It was a few students that were recieving federal aid. That was what the court based their ruling on.

Did they actually ban students that were getting federal aid?

No, they just insured that the BEOGS were replaced by non-federal funds. All students using financial at GCC receive their money from non-federal aid.

Lumberjack7390
That's great.

Polly's homeschooling niece
I was wondering where the bad spelling niece received her education? I'm guessing it was the public school system. If so, homeschooling will help her and her children.

Support your neice.

Polly's non-issue
Poor spelling and grammar are products of combined factors, which may include incompetent original teaching (the great majority of homeschoolers learned their grammar and spelling in the public schools), one's own character and priorities, and the collusion of the culture.

Almost no one can use "lie" and "lay" correctly today. Maybe you can, but you would be in a small minority, if so.

Apostrophes to indicate pluralization? Using the pronoun "they" to refer to single individuals? Hardly the result of homeschooling. Much more the result of a cultural sense that grammatical excellence is pedantic -- a favoring of silly rules over glorious, unfettered human expression.

My brother and sister-in-law have their kids in the public schools, and are regularly amazed at the misspellings and grammatical mistakes that come home in communications from the schools. These are memos and flyers composed by accredited teachers. The idea that children will, on average, learn to spell better in America's institutional classrooms than at home is laughable -- as witness postings to TH every day.

Typo on niece!! :D
It happens! I went to public school too!

Vic
I may be a hopeless romantic, but I believe that if We The People would rise up, and by that I mean speak up, and educate our neighbors and friends, along with voting for people who are strict constructionists to join the Legislative as well as the Executive, we could turn this thing around. Although Thomas Jefferson did note that a healthy government needs a revolution every few years.

Also, we need to get involved. Those of us who know the truth need to run for office. Put our money where our mouths are, so to speak. Run for county seat, school board, mayor, town council, etc, and live our values. We can turn this around from the grassroots, but not from our La-Z-Boys.

Cautions on homescooling 1
Homeschooling is not a decision to be taken lightly. It affects every aspect of your life, so consider it VERY carefully. It is not for everyone.

1. In general homeschoolers have higher academic and social standards for children.

If you want to homeschool, understand that the homeschool community takes PR very seriously. If you are not pulling your own weight, it is bad reflection on all of us. The general public will hold your child to a higher standard-AS THEY SHOULD and so will we. If your child performs poorly in academics and social skills, you are failing. Get it together or get out. Substandard homeschoolers are deeply resented here.

2. In general homeschooling requires higher quality family relationships.

Parenting skills are the foundation for a successful homeschool. Parents must balance nurture and discipline in their child rearing. The loving nurture creates an environment that builds strong family connections and confidence in a child. Discipline creates the self control, behaviors, and habits that are needed for success in schooling and life. Fail in either department and your child will not thrive. If your marriage is not high quality, it will drag you down and affect your homeschooling.

3. In general homeschooling requires better organizational skills.

Homeschooling is an environment where household management and academic studies happen simultaneously. Haphazard, free for all lifestyles make homeschooling much harder. Learning environments that are cluttered, chaotic, and messy are distracting and oppressive.

Cautions on homeschooling 2
4. In general homeschooling requires thick skin.

If you plan to join 1-2% of the parents of school aged children that make up the homeschool community, be prepared for criticism. Acceptance has grown significantly since the early 1980s, but that does not mean everyone approves. Ladies, I’m talking to you now! Some women have a deep need for approval-get over it. Expect none. If you need someone to pat you on the back and tell you they think you’re doing the right thing, you are not a good candidate for homeschooling.

5. In general homeschooling requires conscious socializing.

If you have previously relied on “socialization by default” by sending your child to an institutional setting, you are in for a big change when you homeschool. You will be required to provide group activities for your child YOURSELF. Meet the neighborhood kids. Participate in group sports and music activities. Organize group service projects. Start and join clubs.

6. In general homeschooling requires more academic research and planning.

There are roughly 6 different homeschooling methods. Most educational philosophies, curriculum, and materials fall into 1-3 of those categories. Before you choose a method of homeschooling you need to have a good grasp of what is out there. You will also have the responsibility of continuously evaluating each child’s progress and adjust accordingly. Keep yourself familiar with graduation and college entrance requirements as you plan in the K-8 years. Your time and money are limited.

7. In general homeschooling requires lifestyle changes.

It is extremely rare to find a homeschool family where both parents work full time. The planning required to have mom and dad juggle work schedules and divide the academic, social, and household responsibilities is significant. The vast majority of homeschool families live on one income. If this has not been the norm before you started homeschooling, it may require downscaling.

rjas2330
Part of the problem is that it is now almost impossible for a common man to run for office. The professional political class have rigged the contest to the point that only the rich and the "connected" can run.

In the original days after the first census we had 105 representatives for a population of roughly 4,000,000 people. Now it is fixed artificially to a limit of 435. If we had kept the same proportionality we would have over 8,000 representatives.

Now that is a truly unruly number but it would give us several things. One each representative would have a much smaller constituency and it would be cheaper and easier to run for office. it would also make it a LOT harder to bribe the criters in order to get pork through. You would have to bribe 8,000 people. It would also get rid of the these gerrymandered districts (to some extent).

Of course, we would have to reduce those princely salaries. We couldn’t afford to pay 8,000 house representatives.

Thank you Polly!
I am considering home-schooling our children, when we have them, and I really appreciate the straight talk.

I'm not too concerned about academics - I graduated from MIT with a BS and am working on a PhD in history right now - but it was good to know about the other issues. I am not all that organized on the home front, this is something I'll need to deal with BEFORE starting this endeavor. Same with making sure my skin is thickened!

Thank you so much for all the information.

Thank You John!
John - this was an excellent article... It brought out what is really behind the voucher movement - the ultimate goal of voucher proponents is the destruction of public schools. Thanks for making it abundantly clear now. We can now have a more informed debate - should we or should we not discontinue public education? Let's put it to a national referendum. For the next election. Bring it on. I welcome such a vote!

insure education choice for your kids
To insure educational options on a modest income do the following:

1. Ladies, marry a man with a marketable skill and an excellent work ethic who shares your views on finances, child rearing, religious/philosophical beliefs, and lifestyle choices. If you are not practically compatible in addition to romantically attracted you will probably get divorced. Single parenthood almost always eliminates financial freedom to choose educational options unless you earn a lot of money.

2. While you are a "Dual Income No Kids" couple make every single financial decision on the husband's income. NO EXCEPTIONS! Put the wife's income in savings.

3. Avoid debt like the plague. Debt is the enemy.

4. Mom stays home and raises the infant-prechool kids herself careful to instill nurture and discipline. Badly behaved children are difficult to teach and will not make it in a homeschool or private school setting. Look into private and home options in these years so you don't make any knee-jerk decisions.

5. If you choose private school over homeschooling, mom returns to the workforce during school hours and her income covers tuition.

6. If you like your local charter or public school and prefer it to the other options, save that money for college.

Way too many couples marry for the wrong reasons and make financial decisions based on the moment- not long term. They eliminate choices in their futures by making bad choices in the present.

Insure choice for your kids by:
To insure educational options on a modest income do the following:

1. Ladies, marry a man with a marketable skill and an excellent work ethic who shares your views on finances, child rearing, religious/philosophical beliefs, and lifestyle choices. If you are not practically compatible in addition to romantically attracted you will probably get divorced. Single parenthood almost always eliminates financial freedom to choose educational options unless you earn a lot of money.

2. While you are a "Dual Income No Kids" couple make every single financial decision on the husband's income. NO EXCEPTIONS! Put the wife's income in savings.

3. Avoid debt like the plague. Debt is the enemy.

4. Mom stays home and raises the infant-prechool kids herself careful to instill nurture and discipline. Badly behaved children are difficult to teach and will not make it in a homeschool or private school setting. Look into private and home options in these years so you don't make any knee-jerk decisions.

5. If you choose private school over homeschooling, mom returns to the workforce during school hours and her income covers tuition.

6. If you like your local charter or public school and prefer it to the other options, save that money for college.

Way too many couples marry for the wrong reasons and make financial decisions based on the moment- not long term. They eliminate choices in their futures by making bad choices in the present.

PRIVATE SCHOOLS ON THE INTERNET

.....In the future government public schools will become obsolete as Private Schools move to the Internet for a small fee ...one school could service thousands of students all over the Country and the best part is that it will get rid of bloated school districts and the Teachers Unions .....COLOSSUS

Vouchers should be like the G.I. Bill
The G.I.Bill allows the student to choose which college or university he/she wants to attend.

El-HI Vouchers should be available for use by parents to choose their children's schools.
Schools receive voucher money indirectly from the government (same as the GI Bill) and the "strings" attached to that money should be the same, e.g. the school must be accredited.

Homeschool Mom
Your advice is good for everybody regardless of schooling needs. The best way to avoid poverty is to not have children out of wedlock, get married, go to work every day. It is amazing that something that at one time was a given within our society is so foreign to so many.

Salt Lake City Tribune
Salt Lake City Tribune Weds Nov 7: "Vouchers Go Down in Crushing Defeat: Voters decisively rejected the will of the Utah legislature and governor, defeating what would have been the nation's most comprehensive educational vouchers program. With 95% of precincts reporting, 60% of Utahans voted against the referendum, which failed in every county, even ultraconservative Utah County...The program would have cost voters $430 million by the end of its 13-year phase-in... It had no family income ceiling...The Utah public school system now ranks last nationally for per-pupil spending and teacher salaries, and the proposed program would have diverted money to private schools...". (The article was quite long; google it for more detail.)

To Polly, re Misspelled Words
If you do some googling (try the HSLDA site) you will learn that many states have no educational background requirement for the homeschooling parent and require no reporting or record-keeping or testing. And pro-homeschooling people argue against any state-imposed curriculum. Even basic rules are out: about a month ago on a townhall thread re homeschooling I commented that a pro-homeschooling website, PABBIS (Parents Against Bad Books in Schools) was full of grammatical errors. In particular, I pointed out pronouns that didn't agree with their antecedent nouns. A homeschooling mother shot back immediately, "Who made up that rule anyway and why should I follow it?"

This attitude among conservatives fascinates me. "If it feels good, do it" was a Hippie culture motto in the 1960's, but it seems also to be the motto of homeschoolers. I can't make sense of an educational program that has no standards. If parents encountered an untrained teacher who had to keep one page ahead of the students, they would (justifiably) complain. The HSLDA site complains about "poor academic preparation" among teachers: how is having an amateur with NO academic training an improvement? The logic isn't there. People can't teach what they don't know. "Do you own thing" should not be the mission of an educational program.

Trulib-good points
There was a discussion along the lines you address in a previous thread about poverty few months ago. How can the government manipulate better social behavior that results in economic and social stability? That's a tough one.

A solid education is the on-ramp to financial stability. Sadly, students in poor performing schools, like in the inner cities, are hit twice. They do not have a stable family environment because of various social factors (absent fathers, single motherhood, teen motherhood, illiteracy, substance abuse, a culture of lawlessness, unemployment, etc.) Add that to schools that do not provide, for whatever reason, solid academics, and it is a recipe for cyclical poverty.

The ultimate questions about school choice are: 1. How do we get those in the worst schools into better ones? 2. How do we make poor performing schools good performing schools?

If we privatize and leave it exclusively to parents, what will happen to the children in the worst family situations? I think there will always be some form of public education specifically for those kids.

There are some private school innovators in the inner cities, and we should be keeping a sharp eye on what is most effective in helping those children out of cycles of poverty. Those succeeding in educating children from difficult circumstances are the ones who should be consulted when establishing public school policy and training public school teachers.

To Homeschooling Mom
It did not escape my attention that two women in the news who lost it and murdered all of their children both were homeschooling mothers. One was the registered nurse married to a doctor in Naperville, Illinois a couple of years ago; she drowned all of them, I think four children. The papers said she had wanted to go back to work as an OR nurse but her husband wouldn't hear of it; she stayed in and homeschooled all her kids right through postpartum depression. The other was a year or so after that also in some Northern Illinois town; she was married to a fundamentalist minister. She killed her two kids, I think stabbed them. Obviously both were in some sort of mental health crisis, but the decompensation of these poor women raises an issue: to be in the constant company of your kids day in and day out can be stressful, like summer vacation Writ Large. Mothers whose kids attend regular school enjoy (forgive me but this is true) having a few hours "free" to clean the house, go to the store, catch their breath, play with the baby, take a bath. I wonder if potential homeschoolers think of this huge commitment.

Another point is that children learn from being part of a group. Valuable things, too, like sharing and being patient and being tolerant. How to negotiate. How to survive embarrassment. How to relate to and trust adults outside your own family. How to follow directions that aren't explained one-to-one. How to grow up.

To Dkian
A couple of weeks ago I googled four private schools in three cities, that I happened to know of. The tuition range was $17,000-$24,000 for Upper School (high school). All operate as non-profits. Quality teachers, admnistrators, librarians, and clerical and maintenance staff have to be paid appropriately or they will, quite simply, go work somewhere else. Class size is taken seriously, which in public schools it is not. Buildings, classrooms, labs, libraries, computers, books, and playing fields not only cost money but have to be kept updated and replaced. A private school near my home has just doubled its space by adding a large new building to provide badly-needed space. In other words, running a top-flight private school is very expensive. If you count on competition to lower costs, where do you see private schools cutting their expenses?

To wwsword
Thank you for your post. I thought I was alone here. I have been sitting here thinking of all the things I learned (other than the 3 Rs) by attending school as opposed to being at home with my mother 24/7. Here are a few: 1) A woman doesn't have to wear makeup to be pretty (I had a teacher who didn't use it; this was in the 1940's when that was very unusual. 2) In 4th grade a girl's father committed suicide. I learned something about compassion and how to tolerate my own embarrassment. 3) In 3rd grade there was a mean dirty boy who made lewd gestures. He scared me. I learned it was possible to preserve the integrity of the day, nevertheless. 4) In 3rd grade a girl was in foster care; I had never even heard of it before. She was extra-careful in everything she did. I understood that she wasn't too sure of her place in the world. I learned about that. 5) In 5th grade when we had just moved and I was the new kid, a teacher chose me to be her helper; I learned something about kindness. In a zillion hours of school I learned about patience, tolerance, sharing, and so much more that I would not have learned alone at home with Mother.

I have grave doubts about children being raised with the limitations of homeschooling. It's a tutorial situation and if the parent is competent it should do a good job of teaching basic skills. If the parent is not competent it will be a disaster. But any way you do it, homeschooling provides a limiting environment.

Stossel sees the light
Part of the comment I made after John's previous column (10/31/07) on vouchers,

"Vouchers won't work in the long run because there is no way in h@ll da gov'ment is going to "give" that kind of money without some strings attached."

Nice to know John sees it my way!

Competition
"If you count on competition to lower costs, where do you see private schools cutting their expenses?"

Well, there's only one way to find out, is there?

PROVIDE THE COMPETITION.

People are creative, innovative, inventive. But none of that happens without a NEED.

Lilly the Ignorant
Lilly should be intelligent enough to know that is a fallacy to make generalizations from specific cases.

Maybe not.

The only indicator of educational success is the involvement of parents. The NEA and California judges don't believe parents should have any role in the education of their children if they decide to send their children to public school. The NEA wants to end home education because they can't compete with even marginally educated parents.

As an example of school teacher's fear of competency, a local middle school asked a high school senior Presidential Scholar to stop helping middle school students with an after school math competition. The reasons: she knew more math than the teachers and she was too well liked.

wwsword writes: 12:25 PM - Fine Print
A new longitudinal study by the Center on Education Policy, focusing on low-income students in urban districts, finds the following things about public versus private schools:

Students who attend independent private high schools, parochial high schools, and public choice high schools do not perform better on four subject-area achievement tests than their traditional public school counterparts.
---------------------------

What a crock! Read the fine print! First, this study only focuses on "Low Income" students in "Urban" districts. (Just how many low income, urban kids are there in Private schools?)

Second, you are splitting the categories of schools to include PUBLIC schools in with the PRIVATE schools, and comparing the success rate with Public schools. How amazing - the Public schools did no better than the Public schools! How can that be?

Ignoring the fact that low income, urban kids have a lot to overcome, regardless of what school they attend, your whole comparison is ridiculous. You can not compare low income, urban Public schools to low income, urban Public schools (with a tiny bit of low income, urban Private schools), and say that the results hold across the entire spectrum of students.

What a crock! You too Lilly, for agreeing with it. Can't you read? You're supposed to be so damned smart, you should be able to see a slanted and biased study pretty easily. Why do you need a dumb old homeschooler Mom to point it out to you?


Quote of the Day
"Education is too important to be left to government."

TO dyerje RE Polly's non-issue
Wethinks you meant "....memo's and flyer's composed by accredited teachers."

Grove City...
still does not accept government funds nor do their students accept things like Pell grants.

Reply to lilly 1
MOTHERS WHO MURDER

Establishing cause is important. Does homeschooling cause PPD and therefore criminal behavior, or is the homeschooling irrelevant, and the behavior caused by PPD?

I suppose you could get the stats on mothers murdering their children and compare the percentages of those homeschooling to those sending their children to institutions. Then you can compare those percentages to the general homeschool/institutional school populations. Next you would have to control for mothers not being treated for postpardum depression due to poor diagnosis, limited access to quality health care, and religious objections to the use of medication, etc.

I don't think there is anything about homeschooling that causes a mother to avoid treatment for postpartum depression or increases the hormonal imbalance that feeds the behavior. Even if homeschooling is a stress factor, it would have to be compared to other stress factors in women with PPD who do not homeschool.

I have always said homeschooling isn’t for everyone, and at the top of the list is “mothers who don’t want to homeschool”. I cannot imagine what is going through the head of a husband who insists his wife homeschool when she doesn’t want to. I can only assume he’s quite the emperor who is ignorant of the demands of homeschooling because he doesn’t lift a finger to help or pay attention to his wife who is clearly in need of professional help.

THE FLIP SIDE

I have noticed many reports of female Jr/Sr High teachers having sex with their students. What conclusion do I draw from this? Are the demands of teaching in public schools something that increases pedophilia among teachers? Hardly. There are nut jobs everywhere.

Reply to lilly 2
“ME TIME”

The relatively recent assumption that women need "me time" is a cultural issue. While I have no objection to "me time" for women, ( I enjoy some now and then too.) I object to the assumption that it is a NEED rather than a want. Familiarity with different cultures today and throughout history shows few women worldwide have the disposable income and leisure time for “me time.”

Most women throughout history had their children with them (public schools and educating girls are relatively new) and most women had babies until menopause while running a household and engaging in HUGE amounts of manual labor to maintain a living. They did not send their children off for the day. Add to that the stresses of weather dependent crops, tribal warfare, minimal economic security and non existent health care, and we have no idea what real stress is. I grew up on a farm in rural AZ and I know what real work is-life in the suburbs is a breeze.

BADLY BEHAVED CHILDREN

In general this is why high family relationships are important in a homeschool family. Badly behaved children are oppressive. Since modern parenting practices are generally poor, we have a couple of generations of spoiled children. One of the most common questions homeschoolers get is: How can you stand to be around your kids all day? I actually enjoy being around my children because they are so well behaved. We get very positive feedback from others.

Our pediatrician will tell you my children are the best behaved he has ever met, and it was one reason he insisted on writing a personal recommendation for us when we asked him about adoption related issues as were choosing a birth country. No, he is not a homeschooling dad and does not go to our church.

Reply to lilly 3
ISOLATED HOMESCHOOLERS

As to homeschoolers being home 24/7: That’s not true. It is the biggest myth about homeschooling. Most people homeschool so their children can do more outside the home-not less. My kids are very typical and take piano lessons, art class, weekly PE, gymnastics, and swimming where I am not their teacher/coach. They are involved in 2 different social groups bi-monthly where they are around other children of various religions and a few who are atheists. My oldest is active on a website book discussion forum for aspiring authors where they submit their writing to each other for criticism. We attend church where only 1/3 of the kids are homeschooled. They play with the dozen public schooled neighbor kids almost every day.

In previous years they attended little league and other city sponsored gymnastic and dance classes where none of the other kids were homeschooled and I was not their teacher/coach. They have been in homeschool choir, church choir, violin and guitar lessons, book discussion clubs, and play groups, where I was not present.

There are increasing numbers of homeschooled kids and public schooled kids attending community college in their high school years-so many that our local community college has a guidance counselor just for minors.

Reply to lilly 4a
COMPASSION FOR OTHERS

The girls and I organized a service project this summer that involved several local organizations that were not homeschooling related to help orphans and poor children in Afghanistan with the assistance of a Blackwater pilot, a Chaplain with the Army Reserves and UN troops with the New Zealand Defense Force. Thanks to the detailed information from the pilot and photos from the “Kiwis”, they got to hear first hand how desperate women and children are in some places.

The girls and I sorted and boxed 500 lbs. of winter coats, candy, clothing, books, school supplies, and toys with religious and cultural sensitivity in mind. They were delighted when the Kiwis sent us photos of the items being distributed to the children and their mothers.

Very close homeschooling friends adopted a 3 year old through the foster care system while we were adopting internationally. My two older daughters got to hear all about that little boy’s background (he was pulled out of a crack house at 1 year old) and all the issues related to being a crack baby and in an inter racial family.

They also learned a lot about very different cultural issues causing their little sister to be placed for adoption, general information about her country of birth, and they have seen first hand issues related to being in an inter racial family and handling VERY rude comments and probing questions from the general public about it.


Reply to lilly 4b
We regularly attend the several cultural events every year with our adoption agency and have several homeschooling friends who have adopted from different countries (Korea, China, Russia, and the US.)

Since my youngest FINALLY got her citizenship papers this summer, we can now go on the annual missions trip to rural impoverished Mexico each summer and help build a home for the poor. One of our homeschool friends has a dad in construction who heads the operation. (And they can practice their Spanish with the locals.) We just got sewing machines for my older daughters and they will be making quilts either for Habitat for Humanity or to take down to Mexico. We haven’t decided yet.

We also sponsor several impoverished children worldwide and enjoy reading their letters that tell us about their lives.

Every year we send shoe boxes full of gifts through Franklin Graham's organization and we shop for the children of incarcerated parents with the "Angel Tree" Project either at the local mall or through a local church-it varies from year to year.

Reply to lilly 5

DIVERSITY AND TOLERANCE

As to being exposed to different people. My kids have been on the Navajo Nation’s land for a couple of weeks as we toured our state just before daughter #3 arrived in the US. It was off season (early fall) and at Canyon de Chelly in Chinle, AZ my oldest asked, “Mom, are we the only white people in town?” I told her, “I think we’re the only white people for about 100 miles, honey.” Then my middle daughter said, “I feel like I’m on a big stage with lights shining on me because everyone is staring at us.”

They are probably some of the few white kids from the suburbs to experience being an extreme minority in a fairly foreign culture. They will tell you it was the best vacation they ever had seeing tribal land by foot, jeep, boat and plane-even if all the little kids pointed and whispered when they saw us. It gave them a sensitivity to minorities few other experiences could have and they got to see another culture and a much lower standard of living.

My girls have a girl's group they socialize with that is part of a secular homeschooling group. There are mostly agnostics, atheists, and a few Christians. My girls are perfectly comfortable around people who have neutral to negative attitudes about God, and we are careful to makes sure they are just as polite, kind and sociable with those who have differing views. (They get a lot of practice around some of our relatives.)

They have also been part of a group that has branches of Christians I think few public schooled kids ever meet. The women dress about the same as orthodox Jewish women, never cut their hair, and wear headcoverings. My girls and I are always in the latest fashions (with the exceptions of mini skirts and bare midriffs.)

We also spend time around "quiver fulls." They don't use birth control and have about a dozen kids.

Reply to lilly 6
GETTING ALONG WITH OTHERS

Trust me, conflict happens in places other than the public schools. Most families today are in a sorry state and siblings are so badly behaved toward each other brotherly love is a foreign concept to most. We work very hard at keeping our daughters friendly and close to each other by requiring good behavior in the home and setting a good example in our marriage.

Between neighbor kids, team mates, cousins, homeschool and church groups, our children have experienced conflict among their peers. If someone tries to convince you human nature vanishes when you sign a homeschool affidavit, don't believe them. Our kids are mere mortals too.

RSP
OK -- you got me!

The fact that
... there's more than one valid way of doing a lot of things is well established.

Except with our dear friend lilly, who knows for certain that what has happened to her in a lifetime is the sum total of what happens, and how it happens, and how it ought to.

Unlike lilly, I learned about the sorrows of life through neighbors, extended family, and church members, more than through attending school. Huh. Was this a case of "doing it wrong"?

In my early years, we lived in poor neighborhoods, where it was mostly safe to play in the streets, but there were neighbors who shouted at each other, absent and drunk fathers, ne'er-do-well adult sons menacing their parents, kids who were sometimes afraid to go home.

School was an environment deliberately chosen by my parents to NOT immerse me further in these things. (Interestingly, I attended school with MORE children from different ethnic backgrounds than I would have, if I had just gone to the neighborhood schools, which were about 98% white.) But home and church were places where I learned compassion for people's troubles and weaknesses, and to give to the poor, and make time for those in need.

There's more than one way to live in the world. Judging by the results we see around us daily, there's also more than one place to learn to abuse apostrophes, quotation marks, and pronouns -- but the primary one is still the public schools.

The only thing....
...you'll ever learn through religion is how to utilize it as a weapon to enforce your own form of bigotry, racism and hatred of others.

Religion really has no other function than that at this point in evolution and development of our society.

Is this a joke?
"We work very hard at keeping our daughters friendly and close to each other by requiring good behavior in the home and setting a good example in our marriage." What a load of cr*p.

Listen, if your marriage really exampled good behavior to your daughters and it was inherent within each of them to be good toward one another, you wouldn't need to "work hard" or "require good behavior" (read: force) - it would be happening naturally, as all inherent good behavior typically does.

Either you are a good person who would do good or you are not.

If you're "working hard" at behavior it's because it doesn't exist in you by nature. You can attempt to manipulate the outside world by "acting" a particular way, but your inherent way of thinking, doing, speaking won't leave the hard-wiring that's already in you.

It's mostly the scam you create that shams the greater unsuspecting society. How hilarious!


The Ugly Side of Vouchers
Mr. Stossel has eloquently described my biggest fear about school competition. I fear that if any school accepts government money, they will fall under government control.

I attended Grove City College and I am well familiar with both Supreme Court cases about the strings that came with government money. During my time there, Grove City College also backed out of any state money for the same reasons.

Currently, I work in the public school system. I have no serious fears about competing with other schools in the area for students.

What I do fear is what I already see. My school receives only a tiny amount of federal money. Most of it is state or local money. However, the majority of the paperwork comes from that tiny fraction of federal money.

I would far prefer to see the federal government back out of education altogether. It should be a state and local issue. I do NOT want to see government money going to private schools. They need to remain independent so that they can truly compete.

Future homeschoolers, get used to it.
Well folks, there you have it. Lilly implies you cannot learn conflict resolution unless you send your children to an institution, and according to scooternyc if you have any conflict that needs resolving in the home, you obviously have a troubled marriage and children with no inherent goodness, and any attempt to correct unacceptable behavior through consequences is manipulative and pointless.

This is why I tell you homeschoolers need thick skin.

Here a some more examples:

People (especially those in the public education field) used to argue that since most homeschoolers were not being taught by certified teachers, we had to submit our children for standardized testing. If they failed, we had to send them back to institutional settings. Then the test scores came in. Homeschoolers, as a whole, did well and the public noticed.

Now the taxpayers want the same kind of accountability for public schooled kids that homeschooled kids had in the early days. Many teachers are now against test related accountability arguing standardized testing is not an accurate measure of overall learning.

At first it was generally accepted that government schools existed to teach academics like reading, writing, history, science, mathematics, civics, grammar, literature, economics, etc. Social norms and values were not part of the core curriculum. Well, based on test scores, homeschoolers appeared to be doing well in the academic department, but then the argument changed.

Now the number one question homeschoolers are asked is, "What about socialization?" Anything outside of their little neighborhood assigned, age graded, government regulated environment does not count as a valid social experience.

If you want to join us, you'll have to get used to it.

Homeschool Mom
Given your limited ability to understand the nature of human behavior, I can see why you responded as you did. You probably engage in the behavior yourself and now "feel offended" by it.

I hope so. I hope others are to be offended by it, as well.


scooternyc, Homeschoolmom
Tutoring has been an avocation of mine for many years and now i'm retired i put in 20 or 30 hours a week as tutor and part time teacher in a Charter school. I tutor quite a few homeschoolers as they get into math and science at levels their parents can't be much help with. Public schools are broken. The competition of parental choice is the basic answer, just as removing the Post Office monopoly was the answer to faster parcel delivery. Scooternyc, you can't get away from the powerful role parents play in education and the socialization of their children. Where parenting is weak or incompetent, the peer group takes over and millenia of social values and experience are lost. Children are not born knowing either Algebra or morality, let alone courtesy. School teachers are heroes in my book, but the current public system is in the hands of non-teachers. Control should be returned to the local level, with most decisions being made at the Principal, teacher, parent level.

Great article
"A better alternative is a tax credit for any parent who pays for private schooling or anyone else who helps put child through non-government schools." - This is the best alternative. I always distrusted the voucher idea because it uses government money, and John points out the reason why clearly and plainly.

We need the government out of our education system altogether. Do people really think that we can't take care of this important issue without the help of government?

"Education is too important to be left to government. The freer parents and entrepreneurs are, the more innovative American schooling will be -- and the more kids will learn." - Very true. Unfortunately many people think the complete opposite, that education is too important to leave to the people, and that only government bureaucrats have the intelligence to run it.
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