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Wednesday, October 31, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Utahns Can Vote for School Choice Tuesday
by John Stossel
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


Next Tuesday, Utah voters go to the polls to decide if their state will become the first in the nation to offer school vouchers statewide. Referendum 1 would make all public-school kids eligible for vouchers worth from $500 to $3,000 a year, depending on family income. Parents could then use the vouchers to send their children to private schools.

What a great idea. Finally, parents will have choices that wealthy parents have always had. The resulting competition would create better private schools and even improve the government schools.

But wait. Arrayed against the vouchers are the usual opponents. They call themselves Utahns for Public Schools. They include, predictably, the Utah Education Association (the teachers union), Utah School Boards Association, Utah School Employees Union, Utah School Superintendents Association, the elementary and secondary school principals associations, and the PTA. No to vouchers! they protest. Trust us. We know what's best for your kids.

They say they're all for improving education but not by introducing choice. "When it comes to providing every Utah child with a quality education, we believe, as do most Americans, that our greatest hope for success is investing in research-proven reforms. These include the things parents and teachers know will make a difference in the classroom, such as smaller class sizes and investment in teacher development programs. Focusing on this type of reform will bring far greater success than diverting tax dollars to an alternative education system."

Please. I've heard that song for years. Government schools in America fail while spending on average more than $11,000 per student. Utah spends $7,500. Think what an innovative education entrepreneur would do with so much money. It's more than $150,000 per classroom!

The answer to mediocre public schooling isn't to give a government monopoly more "teacher development programs." The answer is competition.

Bureaucrats and unions tremble at the thought. On my "20/20" special on education, one teacher had the nerve to sneer, "Competition is not for children!" The opposite is true. Competition and choice mean parent power. It's parents whom the education lobby really fears. The last thing it wants is a system in which parents choose their children's schools. Parents might not choose the union-dominated establishment schools. Better not take that chance.

Opponents of choice managed to win a referendum on the law, hoping voters will veto it. I hope they don't.

Vouchers will make schools accountable to parents rather than a bureaucracy. Principals and administrators will have to convince parents that they are doing a good job. That's real accountability. And the Utah law requires private schools to submit to independent financial audits and give students a nationally recognized test each year. The results would be publicly disclosed, giving parents information they can use to judge schools.

This anti-voucher coalition says vouchers will only benefit children who would have gone to private schools anyway. But the Vote for 1 Campaign points out that current private-school students would get vouchers only if their families are low-income. So the law would give new opportunities to parents and children who today have no options at all.

The coalition claims that "vouchers will cost at least $429 million funds that could be used in public schools to reduce class size, provide textbooks and supplies." But voucher supporters note that since an average voucher would be worth only $2,000 and the state spends more than $7,500 per student, government schools would have $5,500 more per lost student to spend on the remaining students. They should be happy about that.

For over a century, American children have been in the hands of education bureaucrats. For over 40 years, the government's system has been dominated by a protectionist teachers' union that puts itself ahead of the children entrusted to its members. The results are what we should expect from a monopoly financed with money extracted from taxpayers: poor quality, lack of innovation and bored children.

The parents of Utah should be the envy of the rest of the country because on Tuesday, they have a chance to take back control of their children's education.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Questions (Asked Seriously)
1) If every child in the state gets a voucher which can be used to pay the tuition at a private school, can the private schools accommodate all of those children? Wouldn't a lot of new private schools have to be formed? Would new private schools have to meet state credentialing standards as they do now? (I am thinking of pro-homeschooling people who on townhall have wanted no state-imposed curriculum or standardized testing or reporting requirements---if these are the same folks who want vouchers, presumably they won't want state standards at all.)

2) Would private schools have any say in what children they accept?

3) What is the relationship between statewide vouchers and school tax? In a vouchers world, would property taxes still fund public schools or would public schools just close? Is school tax money diverted to pay the vouchers, or, how does this work?

Another Question
The article says the average voucher would be worth $2000 and most would go to children whose parents would not otherwise be able to afford private school. I just googled a private school in my community and see that its tuition is $19,535 grades K-5 and $23,285 grades 6-12. Would a $2000 voucher really make that much difference?

Lilly
To answer your last question, NO.

Vouchers won't work in the long run because there is no way in h@ll da gov'ment is going to "give" that kind of money without some strings attached. It won't take long before the long arm of the Fed reaches out and starts dictating rules the schools that accept student vouchers must follow. The result will be a division of "private" schools. Ones that accept voucher students and those that don't and then you are right back where you started.

Another problem is, how are these voucher students going to get to the schools. Very few private schools have bus systems like public schools. Next thing you know the parents of voucher students will demand that da gov'ment provide transportation. Then what?

Same question, other side
I have to say I agree with one question Lilly asks, though I am pretty sure I see things from the opposite end of the spectrum.

I have long been dubious of vouchers. I think it is a great step in getting the government out of education (which should be a private matter, not coercively funded by the state), but I worry about some things:

1. Will schools have to meet government standards to get voucher approval? If so, doesn't this mean the government now has a say in what private schools teach? And wouldn't that result in the long run in dragging private schools down to the level of our public schools?

2. What if parents do not share the government's view of what is important in education? Though there are many who pretend there is no debate over what is important in education, that is a joke. Just look at the fights over sex ed for an example. So, what if the Krishna Consciousness movement schools (some of which focus much more on matters of theology than the traditional academic subjects) try to use vouchers? Will the state protest they aren't real schools as they stress Krishna consciousness over reading and math?

(Continued...)

Continuing...
3. If the government doesn't have a say over content, then what is to prevent bogus schools form popping up, warehousing students, cashing checks, and providing nothing?

So, I worry that this movement, well intentioned as it may be, is going to results in:

1. Government gradually controlling private education

2. The gradual elimination of schools which fail to meet the government's view of what constitutes education

3. The possibility for large scale fraud if the government does not choose to define education

Sadly, though it may seem a good idea, I fear vouchers will do more harm than good in the long run.

One more thing
Many years ago when I attended private school, my school cost $5500/year. My county spent $8900/year. Why should the voucher only be for $2000? and only if I am poor?

Did I not pay for public education? Why does the state still get my $8900, AND I have to pay out $5500? Or, at best, the state gets $6900, and I still have to pay $3500... For nothing but the warm feeling that I am supporting the teachers' unions?

There is something wrong there as well. Better than nothing, I suppose, but calling it a triumph seems a bit overblown. Kind of like breaking out the champagne because you ONLY lost your hand, not your whole arm.

Also, I want to point out that, at least in my home state, every private school I have seen (and my mother has taught at several, and I have attended 2), the cost per pupil is less than the same county public schools spend per pupil. (Perhaps it is the bureaucratic overhead and union costs? Or the inability to ever fire a bad teacher? Who can tell?)

Just pointing out that I have never seen public education operating more cheaply than private.

Vouchers and Politics
Opposition to school vouchers is but another example of the disconnect between the people and the political elitists who "know better" than we do. All that talk of power-to-the-people was cover for power to the political elite who seized authority through special interests like teachers' unions and the liberal establishment, humorless demogogues whose tunnel vision precludes improvement with social programs "for the kids."

The best example of this is the giant rip off AKA the Los Angeles Unified School District, a monster of bureaucracy that allows the Peter Principle's bar to be set so low that power broker administrative assistants can stall payments to suppliers and sub contractors for so long that if the right derrierre has not been properly osculated, they are forced out of a job, or worse, out of business.

More money walks out the back door of LAUSD in the pockets of shady administrators and God-awful assistants than makes it through the front, a wallowing scow, so big it dwarfs some countries' national budgets.

So big, it cannot be changed, so sodden with the threat of employee lawsuits and tenure that overhaul could bankrupt the city, and to top it all off, a one-time glut of money has been squandered because of ego and ineptitude.

School for Scandal is a light description for the cupidity that permeates a system that refuses to control teachers, students, or accounting.

It is beyond disgusting to see reliable, dedicated educators sacrificed on this altar of corruption, common all the time in these fiefdoms.

Vouchers may be the only thing that can save LAUSD because it would mean getting parents involved. Because the parents could see this money as their own investment in their kids' educations, they would scrutinize more carefully, would be more co-operative, would make sure the kids worked to stay in the school.

Corporal punishment might help, too, but that's a whole 'nother letter.

I hear your fears but...
I still have a choice to pick up an move if the school I choose doesn't provide the service I want.

There is so much potential with vouchers. I only hope Utah has the courage to try it out and possibly lead this nation toward a better tomorrow.

For those who...
... argue against a voucher-type approach that features competition and individual choice, are you then in favor of ending all grants and student loans to help students pay for college?

For those who believe that it is better for government monopolies to continue to absorb all of the state education money, I just ask this: name one endeavor where a monopoly is more efficient than a competitive market.

As for the religious schools (yes, including the hypothetical wiccan school or a potential Muslim school), if that's what the parents choose for their children, if the children are learning, then I don't care. If there's a "market" for a Wiccan school, I have no problem with that. Our current system fails, and does so in spite of ever-increasing money from my pocket. Competition spurs innovation, efficiency, and excellence. Tell me we don't need those things in our schools.

Great opportunity for Utah
When I read him, I can hardly believe John Stossel is still in the MSM. His teachings are a total apostasy from the usual lib media line. Although there are Leftist, lib and dem supporting executives that sneer at him, Stossel does more to kept them credible - and profitable - than they may be able to imagine since he attracts another kind of viewer than is attracted to the rest of their trash.

Vouchers? An absolute good. Listen to the hand wringers:
__________
"how abut the satanic schools?
the wiccan schools?"

First off, this is hardly likely, but if that's the parents' wish, amen. At least they'll have had a choice rather than have their kid being spoon fed deviant sex and liberal stupidity.

Gov't determining standards? Isn't that what the dept. of Education liberals in coordination with the teachers' unions' nazis are doing now?
____________

Will schools have to meet government standards to get voucher approval?

Absolutely not - why should any gov't have any say. Like what? Not enough liberalism is being taught here? The school will be in the business of pleasing the parents who presumably don't want a dummy at graduation. I haven't seen the libs too worried about the pathetic product they've been turning out.

That money belongs to the taxpayer which was extorted for the purpose of educating their kid and it will do far more good outside the unresponsive monopoly that public school indoctrination centers have become.

Cont'd
John writes:

"The coalition claims that "vouchers will cost at least $429 million funds that could be used in public schools to reduce class size, provide textbooks and supplies." But voucher supporters note that since an average voucher would be worth only $2,000 and the state spends more than $7,500 per student, government schools would have $5,500 more per lost student to spend on the remaining students. They should be happy about that."

You and I both know that they won't. Why? Because not only do the liberals want the money, they want the kid as well.

For one thing, a kid that has escaped the public schools is a mind they haven't indoctrinated or rendered relatively worthless when compared to more adequately prepared and motivated students.

For another thing, that student being better educated elsewhere for far less than is being sucked up by the public school cesspool, represents a stark measure of PS failure that may be harder for the PS 'educators' to blather and equivocate away.

And finally, when the success of alternative school options becomes clear, more students will follow them out of the public schools until they are forced to educate rather than indoctrinate in order to compete for the remaining students.

Vouchers are a threat to the PS fat cat administrators and teacher union bosses who feed off the wasted potential and futures of captive students.

Lilly -- on Private Tuitions
quoth Lilly: "I just googled a private school in my community and see that its tuition is $19,535 grades K-5 and $23,285 grades 6-12."

Maybe you live in the wrong community?

Maybe your private schools adjust their tuition to match all your wealthy neighbors' ability to pay?

Which is why we have to learn how to use STATISTICS. We can NOT make decisions with a global effect based on Lilly's community.

lilly: "Would a $2000 voucher really make that much difference?"

Would you turn it down?

andrews -- Food Stamp Analogy
This voucher program appears to me as to have all the ingredients of what a good voucher program *should* have.

In particular, the stipend is based on family income. It's not simply transferring all the students from private funding into a government program.

It would be more-or-less like food stamps.

andrews asks:

"1. Government gradually controlling private education
2. The gradual elimination of schools which fail to meet the government's view of what constitutes education
3. The possibility for large scale fraud if the government does not choose to define education"

These are valid concerns -- however, have you noticed any of these problems occurring at your local grocery store? They accept food stamps. Food stamps are given to families with low income and they're used all the time to buy -- food.

To line them up with your points:

1. The Government controls who may get Food Stamps and what they may be used for. I.e., Bill Gates can't get them, and you can't use them to buy beer.

2. Grocery stores must meet the government's view of what constitutes "food", i.e., they have to pass inspection by the Health Department.

3. And, of course, there is fraud. But hey, it's government, what do you expect?

Parents
I noticed that in all the lib's blogs, that not one of them mentioned that the parents are the pivotal point. It is the parents that will have to do the research and decide which school. The libbloggers are typical elitests, "I know what is better for your children than you do as a parent".
What bull. If you want to read about a lib heaven college, read the TH article on the U of Delaware's "indoctrination" of their students.
As John Stossel says "Give Me A Break".

To Grubby and Larry
Grubby: RE "If that's the parents' wish, then, Amen": how about if the parents' wish is a madrassa? Or parents who are members of the Flat Earth Society and want geography instruction to reflect the fact that the earth is flat? Should taxpayers conveniently provide vouchers to pay for this instruction?

Larry: Recently we all heard on the evening news about a parent who handled her son's difficulty in getting along with others at school by pulling him out of school and keeping him at home. Then she handled some other concern, we cannot quite think what, by providing him with an arsenal of, what was it, thirty firearms? And Papa tried to help with this by buying the boy a couple of automatics, only Papa's own history as a convicted felon got in the way. Not to worry, Mama carried on. By the time she was done, Sonny Boy was all set to do our latest school massacre. No, Larry: all parents are not wise. All parents do not make the best decisions for their children. And I bet you define an "elitist" as somebody who knows something you don't know.

Alby
It wouldn't make much difference if I turned it down. If I got a $2000 voucher for a $23,285 tuition bill that would leave me owing $21,285. If I were a low-income parent, there is no way I would be able to afford that even with the voucher. And just think if I had more than one kid.

My guess is that, given a finite number of private schools and a whole lot of kids with vouchers, what would appear would be a lot of new "academies" very much like the "Christian academies" we saw spring up ca 1960 when white parents refused to put their kids in schools with black classmates---their real purpose was continued segregation. The conservative parents who want vouchers would then have the institutions they want, charging a tuition much closer to voucher money than is happening at Country Day Prep and teaching about Jesus and Creationism and abstinence and the free market, and taxpayers would get stuck with the bill.

lily
My how arrogant you are. I bet you think most if not all parents make bad decisions for their children. At least that is what you imply when you bring up ONE case out of millions of parents. Typical liberal elitist. Which according to Webster's Third New International Dictionary (unabridged) means: "one who is or regards himself (herself) better than Americans from most classes of the population" or "the few may rule for the logical reason that they do rule". You apparently believe that since you believe that you know it all, you are better than the rest of us neanderthalls and that your choices for our lives is "good for us". Just goes to prove that liberals(you) believe in what feels good, and not works. It is you elitists that are responsible for the poor education system that now plagues America. Example: We can't fail little Johnny because then he will feel bad, never mind that he will be a functional illiterate, and a drain on the American system, at least he will feel good. From what I have read in your various blogs, you are as messed up as a soup sandwich.

Alby
I did some googling just now to compare tuition costs at four schools in three cities. For Upper School (high school) the four schools charge 1) $23,285; 2) $17,985; 3) $27,790; and 4) $23,890. Subtracting a $2000 voucher from any of these would leave quite a bill still owed by a low-income family. Even allowing for additional scholarship aid, the logic isn't there that a voucher program is about money since when you get down to the math, a voucher isn't the cure-all it seems to be. And the local school I first mentioned doesn't seem out of line at $23,285.

Another point is that much that's problematic about public schools is due to the fact that they have to accept every kid who shows up at the door: drug-involved, emotionally disturbed, mentally retarded, orthopedically handicapped, alcoholic, blind, hearing-impaired, learning-disabled, autistic, parent of three at age 16, or convicted felon born-double-bad. Every student, no matter how special-needs, must be accommodated and this requirement devours resources. Private schools get to choose their students therefore they don't have to deal with a zillion social issues that are the daily fare of public school staff. I wonder how that would work out in a voucher program---somehow I think we would see lawsuits brought against a school that refused to take Johnny when Mama's got a voucher. But I can't see private schools eagerly accepting all applicants (and their parents) because doing so would utterly change their mission and their world.

larry
If you have a kid who wants to be a pharmacist, and a school of pharmacy is going to be more likely to admit a kid who's had some chemistry, and I happen to teach high school chemistry, then I am qualified to say what chemistry your kid needs to learn and to judge, at the end of the year, whether he has adequately mastered the subject. Unless you are either a chemist or a pharmacist, you don't know. I do know. Why do you take this personally? Why do you take it as a put-down when somebody knows something you don't know? Doubtless you are an expert at something most of us aren't.

Your dentist knows about teeth. Your bricklayer knows about building walls that don't fall down. The violinist in an orchestra knows more than you do about bowing and plucking, unless you are a violinist. The chef in your local restaurant knows how to de-bone a rabbit, a skill you may not possess. It is a mystery to me why conservatives want all human endeavor to be Amateur Night---this is a silly corruption of egalitarianism.

To John Galt
Re "Name one endeavor where a monopoly is more efficient than a competetive market":

The United States military. Beats hell out of Blackwater.

lilly
"Recently we all heard on the evening news about a parent who handled her son's difficulty in getting along with others at school by pulling him out of school and keeping him at home. Then she handled some other concern, we cannot quite think what, by providing him with an arsenal of, what was it, thirty firearms? ... By the time she was done, Sonny Boy was all set to do our latest school massacre. No, Larry: all parents are not wise. All parents do not make the best decisions for their children..."

It's true that not all are good parents, some are darned scary as the one described here -- but is that justification for taking the choice out of all parents' hands? I suppose if God were running the school system one could justify it, but your alternative is that other fallible human beings take over this decision making, some of whom are nuts just like the parent above.

No, all things being equal (humans vs. humans), parents should have first say in their children's education.

lilly
I think you missed the gist of the article. It was not refering to college students(where a major is selected), it is refering to 1-12 grades. In which it is supposed to be a general education, meaning studying a lot of different things, and hopefully a child will find an aptitude for one of the subjects, and THEN they can specialize.
I don't know what you do for a living. From your last statement It was implied that you are a high school chemistry teacher (your statement can be taken two ways). If that is true, then good for you, teaching is an honorable profession. I would hope that you aren't taking the science of chemistry and try to manipulate their minds into your liberal philosophy. A futile hope I will admit.
And I do take things personally when someone who thinks they are superior tries to tell me that I don't know anything. That includes you and the MSM. And by the way, what am I supposed to not to know?
I do know, from your blog to John Galt, that you know NOTHING about the military. I served for over 24 years, and been associated with it for the last 11 years. Believe me it is NOT an efficient organization.
Define Amateur. If you mean that we are stupid, then you would be wrong. If you mean that we don't know everything then you would be right. Being a thinking human, means that we don't know everything, and what we think we know is far short of everything. Do you know everything about chemistry? I don't know everything about my job, and I have been doing it since 1969, in one form or another.
If someone is making sense, then I will try to learn, if they are trying to brainwash me then I completely ignore them.

Wake Up America
It is absolutely repugnant that anyone with a brain which has not been addled by the so-called Public Education System over the past 30 years or more would pass up the opportunity to restore Constitutional freedom to their state even in a small way such as this. If you cannot see the disgusting effects this leviathan known as the NEA has had on the rights of freedom to choose, you are, in deed, to be pitied. This effort should not only be passed without reservation, but it should be only the first step toward destroying this communistic brainwashing tool. It is time for the people in "We the People" to take their schools away from these leeches who have sucked most of the life out of our nation by destroying the minds of children through their "New World Order" approach to absolute control over our lives.

Lilly
I agree that providing vouchers to parents would make the public system's job much more difficult. They would be in charge of trying to educate the children who were rejected by private schools and the children whose parents simply don't care. This, in turn, would make things more difficult for the parents who do care but can't afford to pay the difference between the voucher and the private education tuition. My own experience in looking for private education for my children leads me to believe that your figures are somewhat overblown (I am running into about $6000 per student per year, and my sister who lives across the country pays about $6500 per student per year), but even at these rates, low income parents having to come up with 4K+ per year with multiple children would have great difficulty in doing so.

That said, something still clearly needs to be done about our current education system and the lack of choice therein. In my state, there is NO school choice (unless you're willing to pay for private education or put your child in one of the few charter schools, which don't appear to be well run). I know that some other states have "open enrollment," but my district does not. This leads to problems for the poor as well in that the district functions off the tax base within it. Areas where there are fewer affluent people have not only less to work with financially, but also have less to work with in the area of parents who CARE about their children's education and parents who have the time to devote to volunteerism.


What a crock
Poor and lower middle class parents, witness the liberal's "I feel your pain" double talk. These are the people who want you to think they are your champions, always fighting for your betterment, yet all the while they would deny your children the quality education they routinely provide for their own children.

Lilly part 2


You and Larry seemed to have an altercation regarding "elites," in which he accused you of thinking you know better than all the parents - to which you appeared to respond that you're an expert at something and he shouldn't take it personally. Are you a part of the education establishment? What would YOUR solution be to the obvious problems within our education system.

Oh - and just for the record, I cannot afford to send my two children to the private schools in my area, inexpensive as they are compared to the schools you've cited. Nor could I afford to send them with a lousy $2000 voucher. I'd be one of the "poor" folks who care about their child's education, stuck in the public system that's going to pot.

Another Gem From John Stossel
I might add that the Washington, DC voucher program experienced record participation from parents this fall.

school choice
How would you like it if you were assigned to one grocery store and one gas station?

You might say, “But that store does not have the fresh vegetables I can get at other stores, and it would be a lot more convenient if the gas station was on my way to work.”

TOO BAD, THE COMMODITIES BOARD HAS DECIDED THAT YOU LIVE HERE AND IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT YOUR ONLY CHOICE IS TO MOVE.

You see, I ALREADY HAVE SCHOOL CHOICE! When I was worried about my school zone, I moved. Those that need school choice the most don’t have that option. And those who “claim” to care the most about those in poverty oppose this initiative that would help them escape poverty.

When Wisconsin was talking about going to universal health care, I was all for it because I thought it would show the other 49 states that the idea was a disaster; and if it proved me wrong then we’d all be better for it. If liberals think school choice is the wrong way to go then they should be for it to prove that conservatives are wrong about vouchers.

I suspect that down deep they know that this is a great idea, and once the dam breaks they will loose control of the minds of tomorrow’s generation.

edlmco's
last sentence says it all for me. My lovely, talented daughter is a 7th grade math teacher in a fairly successful public school. I have no doubt that she could become just as successfully employed in a private school if necessary.

Average tuition
For the year 1999-2000 the average tuition in the U.S. for elementary schools was $3,267.

lilly's bias
Your bias against religion is amazing. If the founding fathers had the same anti-Christian prejudices that you do, then there never would have been a United States of America. If you would take but a few hours to read their letters and diaries, then you would understand that their faith in God was an integral part of their personalities and philosophies. They saw no conflict between a belief in God and a free and prosperous society - in fact they viewed their faith as a sine qua non for such success.

I cheer for Utah and hope the voucher program will be democratically approved by the people. But I fear two issues: (1) if the NEA loses, they will sue and will ask unelected judges to overrrule the will of the people, and (2) Utah's conservative Mormon population is atypical and thus it will be much harder to approve voucher programs in other states.

TOWNHALL FOLKS - FIX THIS PLEASE?
Nearly every article has a "the talk about this article" section to the right.

With few exceptions, the links/comments/'talk' are from a different article entirely.

Shouldn't the 'chat' sections linked be, well, for the article one is reading, as indicated by the title?

It used to be that way, occassionally still is, but 9 times out of 10 (of late) is not.

Thanks.

Lilly -Not all private schools cost $20K
We send two of our children to a private school for a total cost of $4400 per year.

We also homeschool a child for a total of about $500.00 a year right now (that will increase as he moves through the grades - right now he's just a wee tyke).

And, yes, I am one of those homeschooling people who do not wish to see standardized tests and gov't regulations in either private or homeschools. We have opted out of the gov't schools for a reason - and we do not wish our children's education to be comprised by any gov't intrusion.

Vouchers are not perfect - ideally we would not pay education taxes - but since right now we do what about a tax credit or deduction similar to what public school teachers get for purchasing "education supplies" or for medical expenses?


Vouchers ....
a step in the right direction to break the hold the government sponsored propaganda and containment industry has on Americans.

Vouchers are a small step...
...in the right direction.

If given the opportunity to choose, parents will ultimately render government schools irrelevant.

As a Utah parent
with two kids in public school here, I find it amazing how people are completely ignorant as to the situation here in Utah.

One would think that private schools in Utah woukld be heavily LDS, given the dominant religion of the state. Not so. Most every parochial school is either Catholic or mainstream Christian. Mormons have always used the public school system as their own semi-parochial system(EVERY public HS in Utah has an attached LDS seminary).

Due to a radical change in demographics in the Salt Lake Valley over the past 20 years, areas like West Valley City, Kearns and Midvale are now inundated with minorities and illegal Hispanics, turning some of these areas into mini barrios, resulting in poorer school performance.
Because of a lack of availabele land in the valley, only the LDS Church has the means to acquire land for new private schools, as the Church owns a ton of what's left of the available land. Catholic schools like Juan Diego in Draper and secular Waterford in Sandy have long waiting lists and stiff entrance qualifications. So, if passed, who really benefits?
Current private and parochial schools and their students' parents, and parents unfortunate enough to live in the new mini-barrios, where new LDS elementary and middle schools will spring up.
It won't alleviate crowding or allow the poor and lower middle classes any type of real choice.

Alby
Actually, yes, there is an influence on food production and sales made by food stamps. I used to work in social services, so fraud is something with which I am familiar:

1. Somehow, everyone "lost" their card right after benefits were issued (I won't suggest they sold it for 30 cents on the dollar to someone).

2. In Baltimore there are strange little stores, they have gov't run keno machines and one bag of chips. Seems everyone keeps buying that one bag of chips, over and over, getting back change they use to play keno. Strange how that one dusty bag of chips supports such a large volume of traffic.

3. Also, there is almost no ready-made food in poor neighborhood grocery stores, as it is not covered by food stamps. That, in itself, is not a big deal, but ti does show how gov't funding can influence choices made by retailers, contrary to your assertion.

But my other two objections are to the assumptions behind the voucher program: 1. It is the job of the gov't to care for the poor (and only the poor) and 2) it is the job of the gov't to pay for education [and the corollary that it is the obligation of every parent to educate their child in a manner fitting the gov't definition.]

I just think that by buying into vouchers, a lot of libertarian types are actually providing support to the continuing gov't near-monopoly on education, and, by limiting it to the poor, there are a lot on the right buying into the "compassionate conservative" trap, that it is the duty of the gov't to provide for "the poor" and "the children", and idea which can be molded to fit any left-wing agenda.

Midas:
I had trouble with that when it first went screwy, too. The solution is to click on "Read this article & comments" at the beginning of each article. Not only does that take you right to the conversation, you get the entire article on a single page.

Minor correction:
"Read Article & Comments"

Continuing
I would not object so strenuously were there several conditions:

1. The vouchers were available to every parent
2. The amount was the full average cost of education per pupil, so pulling your child out of public school was not actually profitable for the public school (1 less to educate, but still get $5,000-$6,000).
3. The gov't has no say over what constitutes a legitimate school. Yes, it introduces fraud, but the alternative is MUCH worse.

If the plan had those conditions, I would argue a lot less. But limiting it to the poor, and making it profitable to the public education behemoth for the children to go to private schools seems a bad idea.

(Think about it, if every parent in a school used the voucher, the school would get 70-80% of its original funding for doing nothing at all...)

Once vouchers are approved
you'll see a stunning turn for the better, in both public & private schools. The $25k/yr private schools will still be $25k, but just watch how many new schools will open up to accommodate the many who would be eligible for the vouchers - and at a price they can afford.

Lets face it, one need not be a PHD to teach 1st graders the ABC's and 1+1=2. Nor would the teacher of that grade need to be payed $70,000./yr, with unlimited days off and paid teachers' assistants. (My kid's 1st grade teacher drove a Porsche, and lived in a gated community I could never afford!)

Just getting rid of all the psychologists on the school payroll would free up a good deal of money, and any non-government school could do all the required "educational" subjects with faaaar less money than Public schools demand.

No one is going to send their kids to a religious school that wouldn't already indoctrinate them religiously at home, so fear of massive wicca schools taking over is irrelevant.

Frankly, I'm far more fearful of the current schools indoctrination tactics than any private school, as I would be able to switch out of wicca school if they went too far.

I DON't have that option with public school, which went too far a long time ago!

private school tuition
To Lilly:

I send my son to a private school. I have done research on many private schools before I chose the one my son goes to. Some were quite expensive, others were much less so. On average, I found that private schools were around $5,000. Of course there are ones that are much more expensive, and some that are a little cheaper.

The fact that you researched four private schools in an area involving three different cities indicates that you did very little research. Most cities have a plethora of private schools. One of the largest groups of private schools are those run by the catholic church. Every parish runs a school, and they don't have much problem filling their classrooms. None of them run 23,000 a year, none of them. Then there are schools run by other churches, such as the baptist church. There are of course schools that aren't run by religious organizations, and these run the range of prices.

Lilly, the fact that you chose four schools out of probably at least a hundred or more indicates to me that you "cherry-picked" your results to produce the image you wished to convey. However, that image is greatly divorced from reality. If you want a true picture, get the tuition charges from all the private schools in your area and then compute an average. If you do that, you will get a much lower figure than the one you previously produced.

utahnotmormon, say what?
"Mormons have always used the the public school system as their own semi-parochial system"? How so?

I think you are confused. LDS seminary buildings are church-owned and are NOT attached to any public school. They are COMPLETELY separate and have nothing to do with the public school system other than the students are allowed released time to go over to the LDS seminary for one class period.


religiouslib writes:
do you want taxpayer money to pay for the madrasses that millions of muslim children would attend to learn that democracy and capitalism are the worst systems in the world?

how abut the satanic schools?
the wiccan schools?

Hey R.L. we have that now its called public education.

Don't you remember what happened after 9-11-01? Schools all over the country had muslim awarness day where Christian and Jewish kids were forced to sit through a bunch of raghead propaganda. You religophobes need to get over the fact that the school system is not your exclusive socio labratory. If the public schools did their jobs and actualy taught rather than indocrinate school choice wouldn't be an issue. Case in point is making kids sit through Al Bore's stupid movie. Hey buy a ticket and see it on your own time and own dime! The fact is religious schools produce graduates who can read and write even if they don't know their yoga positions or how to put on a condom. Much like what Toyota and Honda did to the US auto industry once the big three had to compete they started making quality products. Competition does work.

I am John Doe!

Great Article As Always
Vouchers would be the bridge to privatization of the schools. I think in the interim, every school age child should receive a voucher for the same amount spent per child in the government school. This voucher would go to either the government school or a private school. You can bet your house note that (a) plenty of private schools would emerge that would be able to educate your child demonstrably better than the public school for that money, and (b) the public school systems would suddenly realize that they too will have to provide a competitive product to stay in business.

I am amused that teachers who allegedly aren't competent teach our children to read, write or figure, are competent to turn them into liberal zombies. In both cases, the parents are mostly at fault for not ensuring that their children are learning what they should.

It's time for FULL Vouchers for ALL!
As to Public schools becoming the last refuge for the special needs kids that Public schools won't accept, I say good!

Long ago, public schools did not accept behavior problems and mentally deficient children, either, and the kids who were allowed to attend got an education. Now, public schools "mainstream" the semi-retarded, and never eject anyone - no matter how disruptive. Look what that did for everyone! Now semi-retarded kids feel ridiculed (and prone to getting a gun to resolve bullying issues), and everyone else learns only what the retarded kids can learn, and only at their slow pace.

It's long past time we started segregating kids into natural groups, where the retarded kids get the help they need, and the normal kids get to learn at their own pace, and the disruptive kids get to be ejected, and learn to straighten up, or get left behind. Sounds harsh, but really, the alternative is that they all get left behind, and that's what we have now!

It's time for FULL Vouchers for ALL parents, regardless of income. If the state's spending $8,000./pupil for Public schools, then ALL parents should get the full $8,000. per child voucher, and the Public schools should lose the full tuition for every child that opts out. Rich parents are not income indexed for educating their kids in public school, so why should they be paid less in vouchers for private school?

PC
Name one Utah public high school that doesn't have an LDS seminary next to it.

I'm not confused at all. This includes all the relatively new schools; Riverton, Copper Hills, Hunter and the yet-to-be opened school in Saratoga Springs.

More BS
>No one is going to send their kids to a religious school that wouldn't already indoctrinate them religiously at home<

Do you have any idea how many non-Catholic kids attend Juan Diego?

Vouchers are the answer
Vouchers are about the only solution left for poor and minority children in large urban areas. Right now, we are failing these children miserably. I've heard of great success with many of these programs.

I think vouchers are a wonderful way to improve public schools. Lilly obviously does not grasp the concept of free markets. Nothing is as effective in improving product quality as a little competition.

I don't believe that with a voucher program too many students will bolt from public schools anyway, mainly because of athletic programs. These are powerful incentives for students to stay put - they care too much about playing for their team.

Vouchers are an effective way to put the public school system on notice that they had better start turning out educated children. I hope Utah voters choose to take this small step.

Keep up the pressure, John!

Lilly, you are arrogant beyond belief
Lilly said:

"Your dentist knows about teeth. Your bricklayer knows about building walls that don't fall down. The violinist in an orchestra knows more than you do about bowing and plucking, unless you are a violinist. The chef in your local restaurant knows how to de-bone a rabbit, a skill you may not possess. It is a mystery to me why conservatives want all human endeavor to be Amateur Night---this is a silly corruption of egalitarianism."

What exactly are you saying here, Lilly? Are you really claiming that unless you are a public school teacher, that you are an amateur?

For your damned information (you arrogant "expletive deleted"), private schools go to great pains to accredit their institutions and teachers. They hire their teachers from the same source that the public schools utilize. They hire persons with degrees in education and the subject matter, just like the public schools.
Even their administrators have degrees in education. They are highly professional.

Why exactly would you refer to them as "Amateur Night"?

utahnotmormon
The key word is NEXT TO it. LDS Seminary buildings are CHURCH OWNED. They are NOT affiliated with the public school system AT ALL. Do you not understand the concept? I don't know how it can be made clearer.

Utahnotmormon
By your definition fast food chains use Baltimore City public schools as their own parochial school system. I can't think of one Baltimore public school more than 100 yards from a fast food place.

$500-3000
This is s joke. All the private schools should be totally funded by the gov, instead of just giving the rich a $ 500-3000 tax give away.

Lilly
Sorry Lilly but if you look at the results (enemy killed), proportionally Blackwater does a superior job

utahnotmormon
9:43 AM : You said: More BS
>No one is going to send their kids to a religious school that wouldn't already indoctrinate them religiously at home<

Do you have any idea how many non-Catholic kids attend Juan Diego?
-----------------
No, I don't, but I suspect if they're being sent to religious schools of religions they don't subscribe to, it was based on the decision that sending them to Public school was worse! I know, I nearly did the same thing. My kids aren't Catholic, either, but I seriously considered Catholic school, and home schooled them for a while, instead.

All the more reason for FULL Vouchers, for ALL parents! If you're willing to have your kid indoctrinated into a religion you don't subscribe to, rather than submit them to the Public School indoctrination, that should be telling you something.

Trust me, more options will open up, once the vouchers are available, and more people are looking for alternatives. Right now, Religious schools, and Public schools have the monopoly. Once that monopoly's been removed, there will be plenty of options for ALL people. Yay!


PC
"Vouchers are about the only solution left for poor and minority children in large urban areas. Right now, we are failing these children miserably. I've heard of great success with many of these programs."

Oh boy, has someone been drinking the koolaid. The tests that say they are failing, are made by corporations who want to make more money. I know a math teacher who says the Ca. Standards test is 4 times harder than it should be, and even he took 4 hours to complete. Money is all they want. Now, if one wants to help poor schools, lets see that the roof doesn't fall in on them ect..

Taft, you're missing the point.
Vouchers are not a tax break for the rich. It's a baby step in the right direction for giving PARENTS the option to send their kids to a school of their choice.

If the government funded all private schools, they would simply become public schools, and we'd be right back where we are now, only with a lot of insane folks - like the wicca school headmistress - on the government dole.

FULL vouchers are the only answer! Then each student would have a dollar amount set aside to provide for his education each year, and that dollar amount would go to the school his parents selected, private or public.

ONLY THEN will the schools - both private and public, have a vested interest in ensuring the parents and the child wanted to attend that school.

That is where we ultimately need to be, and this tiny baby step of means tested vouchers is just the beginning. I hope.


Not so expensive
Lily,

I did my own googling and found that the average costs are not as high as you think.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/news_detail.asp?newsID= 10
http://www.capenet.org/facts.html
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d06/tables/dt06_056.asp


I may be wrong in the case of Utah
I have not seen their specific legislation but from what I understand there are usually details that seem to be overlooked in the discussions here.

1) Schools don't get funded for students that don't attend. I've lived in two mid-western states and they seem to be similar in that funding is determined by the first week's average attendance. Fewer students less money. If this is the case then there is no benefit to chasing students away.

2) Public schools are not usually barred from taking the vouchers. This means that public school can compete with each other for students and teachers. So while a low income student may not be able to get to the top tier private school, they will probably be able to choose a strong performing public school.


The public education system is broken.
I hope the vouchers work. My fear is that because of the vouchers the government, NEA, and other assorted liberals will end up controling the private schools, and we will have lost more than we have gained.

For vouchers to work it needs to be set in the LAW that only the private schools are allowed to set their own standards. If parents don't agree with one school's standards then they need to find another school they do agree with. That is the only way bad schools will ever be weeded out. It will also insure we do not have a one size fits all, and that there is room for different opinions and different life views, which is an important part of keeping a free nation for a free people.

I will agree that there is a problem with the public schools having to take all students, good or bad. It may end up that the public schools will only have the bad students, and that might not be a bad thing. The public schools would then have more time to devote to those students with problems, and the other students will be free to excell in a less distruptive environment.

We can work as hard as we can on equal oportunities, but no matter how hard we try there will never be equal outcomes until we reduce everyone's outcome the lowest possible outcome. That is what we are working on right now in the public school system. That is inspite of the claim that we are trying to raise everyone else up.

This would mean we would be going back to a system where students were placed in classes according to their abilities. We have lost many of our brighter students to boredom in the schools. As a nation we are suffering from loss of what those students could have produced. Things that we all could and should have benefited from. As our schools are operating now things are only going to get worse. The system is broken. "PC" does not work in the real world with real people.






The concept
>The key word is NEXT TO it. LDS Seminary buildings are CHURCH OWNED. They are NOT affiliated with the public school system AT ALL.<

Quit kidding yourself. Isn't it convenient that every public high school in Utah just happens to have land next to it owned by the LDS Church?
It's a requirement, even if not officially sanctioned.

Lilly - those $20K
private schools employee many people in the capacity of teacher without having to be certified or even have a degree in "education" - instead many look for teachers with degrees and experience in the areas in which they will teach.

I worked (before children)as a librarian at an elite all boarding school in NH. I did know of a single teacher there who had just a generic "education" degree. I did know teachers who had Ph.Ds in classics teaching classics (you know, Greek and Latin), teachers with Master's degrees in mathematics teaching mathematics, teachers with Ph.Ds in history teaching history...oh need I go on?

I would hardly call those teachers amateurs.

And somehow, without a degree in "education" I am managing to teach my son just fine - oh, I guess my A.B. degree in French from my small liberal arts college is not good enough to teach my son phonics?

The most successful government program
The most successful government education program ever established is a pure voucher program. No one has mentioned the GI Bill, but it works and is a voucher system. It works because it empowers the consumer. The Market does the rest.

To paraphrase Bill Buckley: 'The Government promises everything and delivers almost nothing, the market promises nothing and can deliver anything'

Let the parent choose!

Qualified?
Lilly,
My wife has a PhD in Microbiology and teaches at a university. She would not be allowed to teach in a public HS because she does not have a teaching degree.

My daughter's HS Biology teacher was not required to have taken a biology class. Her courses in Education qualified her to teach. It was painful to watch.


Convience
>If you're willing to have your kid indoctrinated into a religion you don't subscribe to, rather than submit them to the Public School indoctrination, that should be telling you something.<

The main reason Juan Diego is so popular is location. Draper has been one of the fastest growing areas of Utah in the past 10 years. The local high schools serving this burgeoning population, Jordan and Alta, are both in Sandy, in high traffic areas miles from the growing sections of Draper.

Draper is also one of the most affluent areas of the state, so most parents in the area are financially capable of the expense. To think that poor and lower middle-class kids from West Valley and Kearns will traverse the valley to attend Juan Diego in droves is simply a lie.

Now, whether parents of kids in private schools should get a tax break is a different story. That should be the issue, not some lie about school choice.

Lilly writes:
and I happen to teach high school chemistry, then I am qualified to say what chemistry your kid needs to learn and to judge, at the end of the year, whether he has adequately mastered the subject. Unless you are either a chemist or a pharmacist, you don't know. I do know.
==============================
Granted you have a much better idea of what chemistry would be better for a future pharmacist. But couldn't the same be said of any chemistry teacher in private or public school?

Would the student not be better off if, given your example, the parents looked at the relative successful outcomes of each program?

Lets give you the benefit of the doubt, you are the best chem teacher in the state. More parents would want their kid in your class than in their local private HS because that chem teacher is incompetent.

Island
"The public education system is broken."

Would you show proof of this? The schools have taken a beating in the Bush era, as has everything els, but they still are great considering the social dilemmas of our society.

utahnotmormon
You seem to be overly concerned with the whole Mormon thing, and yet you choose to live in Utah, which is primarily known for being Mormon. Why?

I'm pretty sure there are buses and planes leaving Utah every day, and it's not like there are no other states, or cities in which you can enjoy similar weather and lifestyles.

I don't know any Mormons personally, but they seem to be law abiding people, and if the public schools are merely located 'Next to' LDS buildings, and they are not Forcefully demanding that the children attend them, I really don't see what the problem is. I know every town I've ever lived in had a church of some sort located nearby the schools.

It's just a proximity issue, not a forced coercion issue. I can assure you, my kids walked right past that Catholic church every day, and never once felt compelled to attend Mass. I'm sure the non-Mormon children of Utah are equally capable of walking past those LDS buildings, as well.



Not
>You seem to be overly concerned with the whole Mormon thing, and yet you choose to live in Utah, which is primarily known for being Mormon. Why?<

I've lived in Utah more than 20 years, and have lived the past 6 in the most concentrated area of LDS in the world, Utah County. My 12 year old daughter is a baptized Mormon.

Not only do I not have a problem with Mormons, I respect and work with them every day, and have no problems with their values or principals, which I admire.
That doesn't change that LDS seminaries next to every Utah public high school is a fact.

Actual private schools in Utah
Rather than look at statistics...
Elementary 1-6 (you can check them yourself)
http://www.slja.org/tuition.htm ($4200)
http://www.reidschool.com ($8500)
http://www.cardenmemorialschool.com ($5500-6000)

Those are just a few of the ones that popped up on a yellow-pages search. If there is a market for less-expensive private schools then it is very likely that they can be instituted. We'll never know unless someone tries it.

KM
Comparing a private and public schools isn't fair. Public schools are by law supposed to accept every kid out there. If private schools won't take the big trouble makers and disruption problems, then to be fair, the private schools must accept every student as well. As for the voucher, a poor family still may not be able to fork out the rest of a private school's tuition, so the vouchers really only help maybe a few marginal income earners and the rich. I seem to remember Santorum milked the system in his state. Also, the vouchers must take away a set pool of money set aside for schools, so the vouchers will be a slam to the public schools who need all the money they can get. Teachers aren't paid so well already. Factory workers, like GoodYear in Lincoln NE. make more than a teacher with a masters.

Taft, what planet do you live on?
I'm not sure you can be taken seriously if you're going to make such ridiculous statements as this:
-----------------
"The schools have taken a beating in the Bush era, as has everything els, but they still are great considering the social dilemmas of our society."
-----------------

Just what social dilemmas are you referring to? And what great schools are you referring to?

I've always lived in middle class, mostly white neighborhoods, where the supposedly "Good" schools are located, and I can assure you, there are NO good Public schools. My son was taught to guess the words in kindergarten and first grade, and I had to teach him to read myself!

In middle school, he was assigned reading that taught him that minors would not be charged in the murder of their teacher, with a good deal of foul language for good measure, and when I called to complain, I was accused of being a book burner.

He had gasoline spilled on his coat from the molatov cocktail in the locker above, but it was covered up by the school principal, who said the boy who had it didn't intend to do anything bad with it. (I asked what he could do with it that was Good, and she hung up on me.)

That's when I pulled him out, to home school. I could go on and on, but just watch the Jay Leno show sometime, when he asks questions of College kids on the streets. It is frightening to see the level of their ignorance, on such basic questions. And these are the ones who got into College. Just imagine the rest!

Public school teachers are the amateurs!

If parents took responsibility for their own children's education far fewer of them would be illiterate.

Instead, most parents abdicate their principle obligation of educating their own children to government employees who are over-paid day care "professionals" known as public school teachers.

The real solution is to do away with public education entirely. It doesn't work and it costs a fortune.

Voucher Program
A lot of voucher opponents forget that Milwaukee Wisconsin has had a very successful voucher program for 10 years now. I heard all of these arguments 13-14 years ago when the legislation was first being proposed and all of their dire predictions of public schools falling by the wayside have been proven false. Public schools are starting to get more competitive now - they are spending wisely and teaching more. Even though it never got out of the "trial" stage, once schools were faced with the very real possibility of parents pulling their kids out of failing schools, the schools got back into the business of TEACHING kids (as opposed to warehousing them).

LL

Not Mentioned
What isn't mentioned in the article I don't believe is that almost half the state budget goes towards education. There is a big teacher shortage in the state and some districts actually hired some teachers from Mexico to fill the shortfall . In most cases the student teacher ratio is 30 to 1 and in some districts even higher. All the negative ads are so misleading. They are to numerous to mention.
One of the misleading ads is that the money will come out of the education budget. It comes out of what is called a general fund which is totally different.
The pro-voucher people have spent 3.8 million while the anti-voucher have spent 3.1 million.
Hopefully the people here will understand that this is one of the best ways to reduce class sizes. Otherwise it's back to the status quo and do the same thing they've alway done. Just throw money at it and the problem will go away.

Definition of insanity-Keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results each time.


dvwilbur
Check out the addresses of the three schools you listed. Every one is on the upper scale east side.

Try to find a private school with a 5000 west address no further south than 6400 south. You won't find one that I'm aware of.

Could you get a voucher for home school?
Could someone get a voucher for home school? Is it fair that a homeschool kid have to pay for public ed and private ed with a voucher but not be able to keep teh $2k themselves?

Would addict parents not keep the kids home to get the $2K.

If we pay a voucher for someone to go to private school and they fail out or are kicked out do we get our money back ?

It is in the general welfare of the country to provide a basic level of education for everyone. We need to FIX public schools so they do a better job and stop Public school from doing the Crazy things like Birth Control w/out parental consent.

Home school and Private school are private choices paid for privately.


People, people
Rather than spend so much space debating whether vouchers will work or lead to a disaster please spend more time discussing all the known problems with public schools. They are broken and at this point can't be fixed.

Here's my compromise; eliminate the Dept of Education and let the State's keep the money they send to Washington. Then see what can be accomplished with Education.

I heard many years ago that California sends four BILLION dollars to the DOE and then the DOE sends back three BILLION and tells them how to spend it. Nice system. All of the talk over the years how concerned everyone is about kids is laughable.

Surf

KM
"My son was taught to guess the words in kindergarten and first grade, and I had to teach him to read myself! "

There is the whole problem right there. A teacher knows that kids aren't usually ready to read in kindergarten, and I'd bet you didn't. Getting kids to read very early has no correlation to future command of the language. If you can whip up an unbiased report that says it does, I'd like to see it. Kindergarten is a German invention and it means just that, a garden where a kid can get use to being in school. In Europe they don't even have kindergarten. The school and what a community can get out of it has a direct relation to what parents and the community are willing to invest in it. A school that has kids who have no home support or role models to show what success looks like are going to be hurt. But, that's not to say there are bad middle school principals, or problems here and there. Private schools haven't been untouched by problems either. Vouchers will only make them worse.

Again, geography
>Hopefully the people here will understand that this is one of the best ways to reduce class sizes.<

How will it reduce class sizes in West Valley and Kearns, which are 5-10 miles from the nearest private school in horrendous traffic?

I thought the builiding of the many new charter schools was supposed to alleviate the crowding?
We have three new charter schools in Northern Utah county, but no private school.

Tinsldr2 - Home school and Private
should both be eligible for vouchers, as the education of the child is what is paid for, regardless of who the teacher is.

Since there would be some form of testing required, to ensure that all children were being taught to the minimum standards, that would eliminate the drug addict from being able to defraud the system, and blow it all on drugs, unless she also taught her child well enough to pass the tests.

Also, as a cost savings incentive, I think vouchers should provide the full public school tuition to each child by voucher, but tell parents that they can keep half of whatever tuition they save by spending less at economical private schools. Thus the $8,000. voucher, spent on a $5,000. private school would result in the parent getting $1,500. and the government would save $1,500., too.

This would keep the incentive in the system to keep tuitions low, and home schoolers would only get half what private/public schools would be entitled to, since they have no overhead or employees to pay for.

That seems to be the fairest, and most cost effective method, while still allowing full choice to all. Many would choose to send their kids to the most expensive schools, and blow the full voucher, but some would try to save money, and they would help themselves and the rest of us, by keeping pressure on tuitions to remain low.

asurferiamnot
Agreed. Keep the feds out of the education business and keep it local.

Facts
Would some RWer please post a site, unbiased, that prooves public schools are doing a poorer job than a generation ago?

asurferiamnot, you're missing the point.
Vouchers ARE the solution to the broken schools.

We can NOT get rid of the DOE, until there is an Alternative!
Believe me, NO ONE likes the current system - not the poor folks, and not the rich folks!

Right now, the NEA and all the teachers Unions have us in a strangle hold, and until we break free of them, we will never have any say in anything to do with education - taxes or choice.

They have the politicians in their pockets, and they have our children at their mercy. WE NEED THIS!

FULL VOUCHERS are the answer, and stop with the stupid means testing. Each child costs X dollars to educate, and that X dollars needs to go with that child, regardless of how much his parents earn, and regardless of which school he attends.

This is a baby step, but at least it's in the right direction, and that's a first in my lifetime.


Tnsldr
There are other countries where kids surpass our kids in math and science and virtually every educated person speaks at least one other language fluently, often English. Have you traveled in Holland or the Scandinavian countries? You never run into an educated person who doesn't speak good English. I wonder why we aren't trying to figure out what they are doing that we aren't doing.

Even here in the States some cultures do better than our mainstream Anglo culture. When I taught high school thirty years ago I used to say that the day they let me choose my kids I would gladly take all the Asian kids and all the Orthodox Jewish kids. The Asian kids had been taught enormous respect for teachers and schools. They were very polite and hard-working. They kept their eyes on my face and took seriously what I said. When the PA system gave out the names of the state math competition winners, every year the names would be Asian.

We had a Yeshiva nearby that only went through Grade 9 and we started at Grade 10 so the kids then came to us. Again, polite. Again, respect for teachers. Again, parents who thought we were God. Again, kids begging for extra work for extra credit, something to memorize please, lists of extra vocabulary words please.

From this I would say that home attitude is major. You who despise the public schools, your children are hearing you say this. They will not respect teachers that you disrespect at home. Also, if you take your kid out of school to go to Disneyland for a week in January, that carries a message. If you let him go to a night ball game on a school night then sleep in the next day, that carries a message that school is of secondary importance.

lilly - the truth comes out
Thank you for revealing your true opposition to vouchers. You are a union stooge, er, uh, teacher. Yeah, um, disregard that stooge comment. You are a noble teacher, no ulterior motives on your part.

The problem I have with your list of concerns is that public schools have many of the same problems, but the parents have no say whatsoever in fixing them.

You are a chemistry teacher who thinks George W Bush is an idiot. Those two facts taken separately are fine and dandy because one has nothing to do with the other. The problem occurs when a chemistry teacher comes into the classroom and, rather than teaching chemistry, goes off on a tangent about how the USA has become a fascist theocracy and is the biggest evil in the world. I, as a parent, have no recourse because the teacher belongs to a union and can't be disciplined appropriately or, even more appropriately, removed from the classroom.

Your point about taxpayers funding teaching you find ridiculous also has no merit whatsoever. Trillions of tax dollars already fund tens of thousands of programs that, if forclosed to the taxpaying public, would be opposed by a huge majority of taxpayers.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you're pro-choice. You probably have no problem at all with all the taxpayer money that goes to fund Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinics around the world. You are in the minority there, but you'd probably be here throwing a fit if this article was about diverting those funds elsewhere. More proof that liberalism is always about idealogy over principle.

More choice is always a good thing. Options and the ability to make a decision based on research and facts are good things. Not every parent will do the hard work and make the best choice for their kids. But raising those kids is the parents' responsibility. You, as a teacher, have no responsibility for any student beyond what that child's parent allows.


lilly cont.
I, a Utah voter, am voting for Ref 1. And I've convinced my wife and her sister, both of whom were previously buying into the anti 1, union propaganda campaign, to do the same. Small steps, I know. But it could make a difference.

myths and fables
i am an elected school board member in california.

the federal government does not impact my school district except for kids with special needs.
the cost of special needs kids is about 15-20000 dollars a year.

other than that the federal government does not require anything other than no child left behind and we have opted out.

charter schools are formed by teachers and parents and are not tied to the teachers union.

we did a small experiment with vouchers in one area and it caused problems.

first, transportation.
if the voucher school is outside the neighborhood how do parents with limited transportation get their kids to school.

in some cases students are bused up to 20 miles away from their homes.
(i find it interesting that some conservatives who protested adamnatly about the horrors of busing now support it when it comes to vouchers)

many parents do not want their children gone from 6 in the morning to 6 at night.

many students do not want to go to school outside their neighborhoods.

how about extra curricular activities.
now the student is gone from 6 in the morning till about 9 at night.

there is also extra costs involved for extra curricular activities.
it cost 3000 dollars to be a cheerleader in our experimental school as no funds were availble.


Fernando
Check online. There are states that have no educational requirement for the homeschooling parent. On previous threads many homeschooling parents have admitted having only a year or two of college. And no parent is as well-prepared in every subject area as an array of teachers each with Masters-Plus-Thirty in senior high school subjects. Your statement that public school teachers are amateurs is ridiculous. I taught for ten years with well beyond Masters-Plus-Thirty in a system that would not have certified me if I had not had at least a Master's to start with. With over 100 credit hours in my subject, I assure you I was no amateur. The same could be said for science, history, social studies, and math teachers where I taught. This was a public school system.

Home-schooling parents mean well, but, as the Romantics taught us, feeling isn't everything and sometimes you have to KNOW. If we heard of a paid teacher who knew so little that she had to stay one page ahead in the textbook, we would (correctly) think she had no business teaching. How is the situation different with an uneducated parent keeping one lesson ahead?

Townhall people love to bleat slogans that sound good and have absolutely no factual base.

The smell of fear
It is obvious from the posts from libs on this thread how terrified they are that vouchers will actually work.

lilly asks how private schools will accommodate all the children whose parents want to flee the public schools. Two responses: (1) Why would so many parents put their kids in private schools if the existing public schools aren't already incompetent? and (2) It's called the "private sector" for a reason, lilly. Private schools will expand to meet the demand the same way (other) private businesses expand to meet increased demand for their products and services.

The unionists and bureaucrats that have been using the children to hold the American public hostage know deep down that vouchers will bring their entire phony world crashing down like the house of cards that it is. That's why they demand that the people be denied "choice" in education. The same liberal crowd that demands the "choice" to kill an unborn also demands that parents be denied "choice" in the education of their children.

I read a good line in a "Human Events" article today,

"It takes a child to raze a village".

When you consider the left's attitude toward education, taxes (Rangel proposes extending the Earned Income Tax Credit to people who have kids but don't even pay taxes), and Health Care (proposing to extend SCHIP to families earning $80k and to 25-year-old "children"), it appears that this is the basic foundation to the left's backroom political strategy.

And the right of real "choice" for We The People be damned.

Educational Choice
I read John Stossel's book that mentioned the educational system in Belgium as a potential model for the U.S. It had three separate systems, government, religious, and secular. All three competed for Belgian students. All parents of school aged children were given a voucher for a set amount for each child. The parent was free to send their child to whatever school they wished and all schools accepted this voucher as payment-in-full for a year's tuition. Since all three school systems competed, all had to constantly improve to maintain or increase enrollment.

On the free market side, if we had a similar system here, where the parent received a voucher for the full year's tuition at the local public school, and the parent could take it to any other school and redeem it for it's cash value to said school, then that would allow almost any parent to choose from most of the current private schools. And as others have stated, once the voucher system begins, schools of all kinds will spring up. Soon enough, schools will start to specialize in different areas. You will end up with schools that will specialize in the sciences, the arts, music, vocational training, languages, you name it. You will also see some very low cost schools spring up for the lower income families that will teach a bare bones but rock-solid basic curriculum. And with the beauty of the free market, you will also end up with schools that will specialize in helping nearly every category of "special needs" student you can imagine. Where there is a niche and a free market, someone will find a way fill that need.

If you doubt this, a good example would be restaurants in the U.S. There are a plethora of restaurants ranging in prices from a few dollars to hundreds of dollars for a meal. The choices are staggering. Nearly every type of ethnic food from around the world, foods created from other distinct foods, vegetarian, organic, etc.

The free market truly is a wonder.

Another interesting opinion piece
on education is :
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20071025/cm_csm/ycarperhunt;_yl t=Aol7jjAR2vZOJEEFbTEkCKS6e8UF

It appeared in the Christian Science Monitor last week. It's really worth the read - it also advocates for school choice.

My favorite line from the piece is

"The role of government in a democracy should be to see that the public is educated, not to mandate, directly or indirectly through financial policies, one particular form of education."


Taft, you keep missing the point.
When I said my child was taught to "Guess" the words, in K and first grade, the emphasis was on the teaching method, not on the age appropriateness of reading.

His teacher actually was "trying" to teach him to read, and she was doing it by showing him a picture book with a glass of milk under the word "Milk". I know, because I was a teachers' helper, and was appalled at this method.

I was forced to teach him to read at home, because in real life, there are no pictures under each word, to help you guess what's being written.

As to a generation ago, I guess it depends on your definition of a generation. I was born in 56, and I can tell you, the schools were deteriorating badly all through my schooling in the 60's and 70's, and when I went back to visit old teachers, I was told the horror stories of the new teaching methods that were being used on the poor kids who followed me. My fifth grade teacher complained he was wasting half his time teaching kids the alphabet, because they managed to get through 4 years of school without learning even that much!

This ALL falls on the head of the old hippies, and the drug addled minds of the fops who promoted their every whim.

They took over the schools, and now we are paying for it - in spades. It's time to put the hippies out of the schools, and get back to teaching school, not the trendy hogwash that passes for an education today.


milwakee is a good lesson
DPI has withheld $1.3 million from the Academic Solutions Center for Learning because of discrepancies between the school's reported enrollment and attendance reports. The school, one of the largest participants in Milwaukee's private school voucher program, reported to the state in September that it had enrolled 734 voucher-eligible students.

District officials of Milwaukee Public Schools, which has some authority over private schools that receive federal Title 1 funding, visited the school because the school's attendance sheets showed that only about 560 voucher-eligible students were attending classes. The district also reported that the school collected September voucher payments for 35 students who were also enrolled in MPS.


MILWAUKEE-- One school that received millions of dollars through the nation's oldest and largest voucher program was founded by a convicted rapist. Another school reportedly entertained kids with Monopoly while cashing $330,000 in tuition checks for hundreds of no-show students.

The recent scandals have shocked politicians, angered parents and left even some voucher supporters demanding reforms.

The troubles have helped lead to passage of a state law requiring voucher schools to report more financial information to the state. Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle signed it last month.

But so far, efforts to impose more rigorous academic standards on voucher schools have failed.


In the first five years of the voucher program, when it was small and excluded religious schools, state law called for an outside expert to research how things were going. The person selected was a University of Wisconsin-Madison professor, John Witte, who was given access to such things as details of student performance.

Overall, Witte found that there was little evidence that students using vouchers were doing either better or worse than comparable students in Milwaukee Public Schools



I wil vote YES
but it will probably fail. The UEA has been running a lot of false and misleading claims. Another monopoly maintaining power over our children.

I am disappointed that people like lilly et al are so credulous. The idea that the government can do a good job in teaching kids? Mine suffered, and I would not have others suffer likewise.

Seminary is not required
"That doesn't change that LDS seminaries next to every Utah public high school is a fact."

This statement is true. However, your original words were "EVERY public HS in Utah has an attached LDS seminary".

That's not the same thing. The word "attached" can mean either physically otherwise connected. With one exception, neither is true. (In that one, the seminary shares a portion of the building, but no interior doors--the students must leave the building to get into the seminary room. The Mormons own or lease that room. My information is unclear.)

As you have pointed out, the buildings are near the high schools. Other religions are free to do the same. They choose not to.

This proximity is a convenience for the seminarians. They do so during "released time", a program originated in Gary, Indiana, in 1914 which had nothing to do with Mormons. Because they must get from the school facility to the seminary class and back on the school's schedule, putting the building anywhere else would be problematic.

It is not a requirement imposed on anyone by either the state or the Church. Others have made the point that no non-Mormon child is forced to attend seminary. What no one has said is that not all Mormons attend, either. It is not required (albeit highly encouraged) even of the Mormon students.

Vouchers are a Trojan Horse, and I oppose them for many reasons stated here. My biggest fear is that they will be the means of destroying all alternatives to government-run, tax-funded (grtf, aka welfare) schools.

The answer is for parents to empty the grtf-welfare schools and take charge of their own children's educational needs. The cost may be high. But the cost of the status quo is far higher.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Lets do this right.
First, I've read "Myth, Lies, adn Downright Stupidity", so I am familiar with Stosels' arguements. Second, I am in Utah and Mormon and in the middle of the battle. I support school choice on principle. But we are not doing it the right way.
1. Our state legislature is doing the voucher program-if you'll pardon me-"half assed". The voucher level is likely too low, and I would feel better if they had a pilot program to see if it would work FOR OUR STATE.
2. The educational status quo is not working here, for alot of reasons. But the vocuher opponents have not really made a proposal of how THEY think we should change the system so it NO LONGER FAILS CHILDREN AND FAMILIES AND THE STATE OF UTAH IN GENERAL.
3. My father is a conservative opposed to the voucher program because he does not think we should give public money to private schools. If that is the case, then I think our school 'funding' problem is solved. The state also gives out millions for PRIVATE BUSINESSES to set up here,with no guarantee of success. So, why not take that money to improve our school system, not to mention roads and other infrastructure. I think that would be better for business in the long run, by having an environment worth doing business in.
4. Parents NEED TO RAISE THEIR CHILDREN AND THAT INCLUDES EDUCATION. It is of course not easy to do so. But nothing worth doing is going to be easy. You cannot expect involvement of a third party (like the government) to work how you want it if you don't pay attention to it.
5. Home school families ought to have the vouchers to cover their expenses therein.
If this were really about the children, we would not be at this point. I think everyone is going about this wrong, and needs to go back and come up with something better.

religiouslib writes:
"i am an elected school board member in california."

And that says just about all you need to say about Public Schools in California.

school vouchers
The vouchers they are proposing is piddling. Private schools in my state charge $10,000.00 tuition and some even more than that. And don't forget the rising cost of gas for parents to transport the kids to the school of their choice. How many of those low income parents can take advantage fo the vouchers if they get them?

Lily has got part of it right. Its the parents and their attitude toward school limits our kids and schools. But it is our own system that is doesn't measure up to almost any school on the planet and that includes European, Asian, and South American schools. They require more of their students and provide comprehensive tests (shudder) at the end of their schooling to see how well they what they have mastered the material. But wait theres more, when the newly graduated student goes out looking for jobs, the future employers can look at their school records, including tests, attendance records and teacher comments. This tells their kids that the work they do in school is IMPORTANT. That just doesn't happen here. Employers are scared of being sued if they ask for school records.

As for academics. Euopean schools track their students at the HS level. They have a staggered school day, instead of the same subject taught every day like here. For example math is offered 4 days a week, biology, physics, chemistry is offered two days a week for every year of high school. Georgraphy, languages, and history is offered in the same manner. Their students graduate with three times the hours of instruction in almost any subject that our kids get. Ever notice how geographically ignorant the average American is. We don't offer geography as a class any longer.


Reason
"To begin, vouchers will not increase the money public schools have. Vouchers will take away a portion, whether it be small or large, of an already insufficient amount allotted to public schools per student enrolled. As one of the worst states in the nation at funding public schools, our public education system needs to do better. There is no way around that fact. It is disturbing that, in a state with a budgetary surplus, legislators would rather implement a system that takes money from public schools than deal with our flailing system by funding it adequately."

http://media.www.dailyutahchronicle.com/media/storage/paper 244/news/2007/10/24/Opinion/The-Chronicles.View.Referendum. 1.Would.Hurt.Utahs.Public.Schools-3052922.shtml

utahnotmormon
I'm sure you know that LDS seminaries provide an option for the LDS students who want to take time to balance the secular education with spiritual. That the LDS church purchases the land is both legal and convenient. The existence of those seminaries is the reason Utah isn't flooded with LDS private schools. The class is called "release time" and can be used to study anything at all.

When I was in high school I wasn't particularly religious, so I used release time to work for my dad's construction company, for which I got Industrial Arts credit. A non-LDS friend of mine crossed the street with the LDS kids and then sat on a park bench behind the seminary (in good weather) and read his Bible. Another friend used the time to go to the library and study for her AP and CLEP exams.

The only thing the student needs is a note from an "advisor" showing they attended and participated. I used a time slip signed by my dad. My first friend had his pastor sign for him after he completed weekly reading assignments. The other signed in/out with the librarian each day.

I doubt that Ref 1 will have a huge effect on public education in Utah. I'm satisfied with my daughter's teacher and school, so my family is unlikely to make use of it. Ultimately, I think that parents should have a choice. Annual per-student expenditures for the Guadalupe school, which does great work, is $3k. If the vouchers do nothing but help the parents who are struggling to keep their children enrolled there, that is enough for me.


Lilly
your hatred and contempt of homeschoolers is astounding. I think you assume that every homeschooling teacher is an uneducated idiot who is barely fit to feed, clothe and house their offspring, let alone educate them.

It's been my experience that it is a rare homeschool teacher that assumes he or she can teach everything to his/her child. Homeschoolers have an extensive network of support and resources - including sharing knowledge and expertise.

I personally know high homeschoolers who take classes at the local community college, and some who have private tutors for subjects their parent teachers cannot fully accommdate in the home.

Personal story - I took Russian in high school. My teacher had never studied the language, and was only a chapter ahead of us in the book. He would "teach" it to himself, and then "teach" it to us. He was a paid, union dues paying, certified, degree in "education", public school teacher.



cultural continuity
two of the most important aspects of public education are local control and cultural continuity and assimilation.

i hear all these complaints how the public school does not do this or that.
people you have control over who is elected and what they do.

the curriculumn is set by the school board.
the supertentdent, principals and all teachers are hired by the school board.

public education is one of the mos democratic institution in america.

the cultuaral aspects cannot be ignored.
my son is a senior in high school and what he has learned and is learning is almost exactly what i learned 30 years ago in a midwest high school.

the read the same novels, study the same history and struggle with the same math. (lol, i never did like calculus).

the pep assemblies and friday night football and basketball games.

homecoming and the prom are things every american is familiar with and which most enjoyed.

these common experiences are shared by 90% of americans.
take it away and you are looking at alot less commonality in our country.

now maybe that is something you don't want or don't care about
but i have been able to have some very productive and intellectual discussions with my son on a variety of subjects because we shared those common high school experiences.


I have always said
"It takes a village to raise an idiot"

km
you know nothing of which you speak.

just because i am out trying to improve schools and hold elective office--- you dare to condemn me.

what exactly are you doing to improve the edcational system in this country other than whining and blaming others.


Taft, at $8,000./pupil, I could buy the
building, teach the kids, feed them all, and still have a tidy paycheck for myself, on just one 30 pupil class.

EVERY YEAR.

How in the heck you guys can keep crying there's not enough money in the schools to provide a decent education is beyond me.

The schools are already built, the kids pay for their own meals (or the government does), and that only leaves the teachers salaries and the electric bill. I think $8,000./pupil is quite sufficient, and no talk of underfunding education need ever be mentioned again!

Man, it kills me how you guys on the government payroll can never get enough! Some of us manage to work 40+ hours a week, ALL YEAR LONG, with only a week of vacation, and still earn less than most teachers make, yet all we ever hear is how underpaid and overworked they all are.

Well, that ship has sailed, and teachers now are so overpaid and under worked, they may as well be on welfare for all the good they're doing.

Cry to me about how parents don't care some more, too. I cared, and I tried to talk to them, but I was shut down and hung up on every time I tried to have any input into my kid's education. The only "input" teachers want is me putting my taxes in their pockets, and teaching my kids for them - but only if I teach the PC crap they deem worthy.

When parents see some interest in what they want, teachers may find a bit of respect coming back at them. Until then, they can expect to maintain the current level of contempt from me.

The First Shot Heard Around the Country
KM

Thank you for taking the words out of my mouth.

Most School Board members in California and most everywhere else are also a major part of the problem because they are bought and paid for by the NEA and state EA's as well. Here in Ohio they do not even divulge their political affiliation.

This is a "Test Case" in Utah, and it should be simply the first shot fired. When the people of Utah do get a legitimate choice, it should immediately take steps to return the power of the State back to the people. It is time to relegate the NEA and any other so-called teacher unions to the dung heap of failed Socialism in the United States. And while they are at it, they should also bring an end to the ACLU wherein "C" stands for Communist.

religiouslib
"i find it interesting that some conservatives who protested adamnatly about the horrors of busing now support it when it comes to vouchers"

I find it ridiculous that you find that interesting.

The issue if forced bussing vs. parental choice. Nobody wanted forced bussing - not the racist segregationists, not the students, not the students' parents. It is still going on today and everyone involved still hates it.

Why not just fix the problems in the neighborhood schools? I know. Easier said than done.

This is the whold point with vouchers. A parent who CHOOSES to send their child to a different school assumes the responsibilities that come with that choice. If that means a lengthy carpool or bus ride, so be it.

I also find it ridiculous that a college dropout had to explain this to you.





chicaree
Re: "The vouchers they are proposing is piddling. Private schools in my state charge $10,000.00 tuition..."

You are basing your thinking on static logic; the logic that assumes nothing else will change except the financial ability of a parent to place her child in a private school.

What most posters on this thread who are critical of vouchers ignore is that vouchers will create competition within the public school sector as well. Vouchers allow a parent to put her child in ANY accredited school. That means that a parent can put her child in a nearby public school that does a better job, has less of a drug problem, and (possibly) even has some extracurricular activity her child enjoys at no (additional) cost.

Also, with billions of dollars being opened up to a new, competitive education industry, the private sector will create schools that parents can afford on the value of their government vouchers.

And they will do a better job of educating kids than the current incompetent bureaucratic government monopoly is even willing to try to do.

It will be a whole new educational world. That's why it scares the existing educational establishment, with all its fat arrogance, to death.