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Wednesday, October 24, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Global-Warming Debate Isn't Over Until It's Over
by John Stossel
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


First he won the Oscar -- then the Nobel Peace Prize. He's being called a "prophet."

Impressive, considering that one of former Vice President Al Gore's chief contributions has been to call the debate over global warming "over" and to marginalize anyone who disagrees. Although he favors major government intervention to stop global warming, he says, "the climate crisis is not a political issue. It is a moral and spiritual challenge to all of humanity".

Give me a break.

If you must declare a debate over, then maybe it's not. And if you have to gussy up your agenda as "our greatest opportunity to lift global consciousness to a higher level," then it deserves some skeptical examination.

Everyone has heard that Earth's atmosphere is heating up, it's our fault, and it's a crisis. No wonder 86 percent of Americans think global warming is a serious problem and 70 percent want the government to do something now.

But is it a crisis? The globe is warming, but will it be catastrophic? Probably not.

In "An Inconvenient Truth," Gore says that "sea levels worldwide would go up 20 feet."

But the group that shared last week's Nobel Prize, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, says in a hundred years, the oceans might rise 7 to 24 inches .

Gore also talks about drowning polar bears. He doesn't mention that the World Conservation Union and the U.S. Geological Survey say that today most populations of polar bears are stable or increasing.

And while man's greenhouse gasses may increase warming, it's not certain that man caused it. The most impressive demonstration in Gore's movie is the big graph of carbon-dioxide levels, which suggests that carbon levels control temperature. But the movie doesn't tell you that the carbon increases came after temperatures rose, hundreds of years later.

There's much more. A British court ruled that U.K. teachers could show Gore's documentary to students only if they also explain nine errors in the movie.

I wanted to ask Gore about that and other things, but he wouldn't talk to me. Why should he? He says "the debate is over."

"It's absurd for people to say that sort of thing," says Paul Reiter of the Pasteur Institute.

John Christy and Roy Spencer, who won NASA's Medal for Exceptional Achievement for figuring out how to get temperature data from satellites, agree that Earth has warmed. "The thing that we dispute is, is it because of mankind?" Spencer says.

Some scientists say the warming may be caused by changes in the sun, or ocean currents, or changes in cloud cover, or other things we don't understand. If it's all man's fault, why did the Arctic go through a warm period early last century? Why did Greenland's temperatures rise 50 percent faster in the 1920s than they are rising now?

The media rarely ask such questions.

The media also treat the IPCC as impartial scientists, but Reiter and Christy, who were members of the IPCC, say it is not what the public thinks it is. Many of the people involved in writing its report "are not scientists at all," Reiter says. "They were essentially activists." Members of groups like Greenpeace were involved. Skeptics were often ignored.

Christy says, "We were not asked to look at a particular statement and sign our names to it."

Adds Reiter, "I resigned."

But the IPCC still listed him as part of the so-called consensus of scientists. He says he had to threaten to sue to get his name removed from the report, although the IPCC denies that.

Skeptics like Reiter, Christy, Spencer and Tim Ball, who studies the history of climate change and heads the Natural Resources Stewardship Project, are often smeared as "deniers," lumped in with Holocaust deniers and accused of being "on the take" from energy businesses." Gore impugns skeptical scientists by saying "the illusion of a debate has been purchased."

But the scientists I interviewed don't get money from business.

Some get threatened. Ball received an e-mail that said: "You will not live long enough to see global warming!"

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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©Creators Syndicate
Yep
Funny how global warming just happens.

A mere few thousand years ago, right here in LA, the whole place was under permanent sheet ice, and sabre-tooth cats and woolly mammoths ran rampant.

Tuesday, the temperature was about 80 degrees. Global warming, no doubt about it.

But I really doubt if those mammoths were driving many SUVs, and frankly, I'm pretty happy about the whole thing. I'm living in climatological Paradise.

These enviro-whackos are looking for nothing more than an excuse to let government take over more control of everyone's lives. It's pure politics, and nothing more.

Leftists lose sleep at night worrying that someone somehwere might be enjoying their life free of government oversight.

Can't have THAT!

Hi BrianR
I've been reading and hearing about the fires in So Cal. I hope you're safe.

Good post, John Stossel. Of course Al Bore won't talk to you. He might have to put up a convincing argument of which he is incapable.

Thanks, Tica!
Stop by my blog (click my name) and you can read my first hand report with pictures, from the front of the fire line.


Thanks for the kind words.

I wonder why all the AGW
articles all of a sudden? Could it be that Boxer is getting ready to unload?

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/news-desk/2007/10/23/inhofe-war ns-of-global-warming-laws.html

Seriously people, I think we are doomed on this issue. It is much like the immigration issue. The commies in Washington (both D's and R's) have decided they are going to tax us to death and hand out special privilidges in the name of AGW and we will just have to eat it.

Fred T. is the ONLY one of the top tier candidates who has not signed on to this scam.

The Drill
Ok here's the drill.

As shrill and as ear-racking as an dentist drill.

Liberals promote environmentalism.

Conservatives oppose it.

All through the '70s and '80s the conservatives were hand wringing over the environmental movement and regulations. As with the ever imminent prediction of the demise of business collapsing whenever minimum wage is raised, conservatives have been predicting environmental regulation will kill businesses. Well, neither one of those predictions have ever come true.

In fact quite the opposite, enviormentalism created markets.

It's called crying wolf. It's chicken little, "the sky is falling". The irony of course here is that Gore is crying "the sky is falling" while the conservative reply is "the business sky is falling" right back. Gore the huckster.


Global Warming looks to the public yet like yet another Erin Brockevich situation. Liberals are promoting the environment and conservatives are against it.

And guess what, when the next environmental issue comes along, liberals will be promoting saving the environment and conservatives will be against. The drill.

It's a perpetual dance card, the theater of politics, the drill.

At this point in history the conservatives have opposed so many environmental issues that the public has turned a deaf ear on them.

It's always the same old, same old. Conservatives are against environmental regulation.

The American public has no way of knowing that on this environmental issue the conservatives happen to be correct. And arguably, neither do they care. So what if the liberals get it wrong on occasion? At least the care.


As far as the public is concerned, conservatives just don't give a darn about the environment and hence are to be ignored.





Last week
was, ahem, a red letter day for the lefties.

Question:
What do Al Gore and Ellen Degeneres have in common?

Answer:
http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2007/10/noose-flush.h tml

Science is a delicate thing. It depends so much on the integrity of the people practicing it. I don't say this is rare. Delicacy is common -- as in medicine, or politics. I leave out religion, because the priests of this age are the scientists. They enter their secret places and bring out universal truths. At least with politics, and medicine, other people are involved. So when we find dishonesty or slovenliness in this field, well, the guards must guard themselves.

Yes, we need to re-emphasize math and science in school. Otherwise the next science fad that dictates social policy could be some effort to build pyramids that reach to the moon. You know, something cosmic to save the universe.

J

I hope these pages are being archived
so that when down the road someone says what happended to all of theat AGW fraud that we spent trillions of dollars on research can be done to determine who will pay it all back.

They will come and collect all the AGW fanatics and throw them in jail until they pay for this boondoggle.

treasonous
Only the truly ignorant would believe that giving various government agencies control of vast portions of our economy will in ANY way impact planetary warming.

Dang.
So sorry. I gave the wrong answer.

http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2007/10/takebacks.htm l

Forgive me. It's after 3:30 A.M., my time. I'm just dopey.

J

Weather
I could care less what you call the recent weather phenomenom and changes that have already occurred but it is asinine to write articles blaming politicians for bringing the fact to the public sphere. That is why Al Gore won the Nobel Peace prize, so get over it!
To think that it is not going to be catastrophic
is also goofy. Unpredictable change in weather patterns is here today and the fires in CA are a prime example of this change. The jet stream is stronger, temperatures are warmer, conditions exceptionally dry, all uncharacteristic of the month of October. This unstability while not caused by direct human behaviour doesn't change the fact that the weather is changing and blaming Al Gore for bringing our attention to it is more responsible then denying it.

Everytime I see Al Gore...
...I think of the Music Man.Don't you think "carbon credits" are boys band uniforms? If you don't think so,I suggest you go out and rent the Music Man ASAP."Trouble my friends,right here in River City"."We got to keep the young ones moral after school!"

Crumbsrmine
How old are you?

These things are cyclical
We had a five year drought in Georgia while I was living there, that was every bit as bad as the one they are having now. The same people were shrieking and crying about the end of city life as we know it (and the same people like Brian were continuing to defy all the rules by watering their lawns and washing their driveways and ignoring all efforts to conserve water, just to defy The Man). When it broke, we had two of the wettest years in Georgia history and the same people were howling because they were flooded out, and people were crying for the government to save us from the floods.

These things are cyclical. Trust me. I have seen it.

P.S. For Brian, who refuses to evacuate when told to, please do not do a New Orleans and start screaming that The Man Hates [Your Ethnic/Economic Group Here] because now that you are suffering the consequences of ignoring your own safety until it was too late, and the firemen wont stop fighting the fire to come and save your narrow Anglo butt.

re: JohnnyM
If your trolling for a foot dance, I would suggest a men's restroom.

driveby
4 times in your rant you stated that conservatives are "against" the environment.
There is no one I know who is against the environment. This is what frosts us conservatives. You lib's completely ignore the facts and say we are "against, we "hate" we "don't care", when we don't agree with you. Soooooooo, I'll do this slowly so even you can understand.
We believe in a cleaner environment. We do not believe in regulation and treaties that rabid, out of control environmentalists demand. Commerce and business must be able to survive regulations. If we do not agree with government regulations it is because they are unjust, unwarranted and put an unnecessary financial burden on business.
Reasonable regulation = Good. Hysterical regulation = Bad
I hope you get it now.

CA fires proof of GW?
Crumbsrmine

I honestly hope you do not believe that the fires in CA are the result of gobal warming. If you do, you obviously do not live there, nor are you aware of any of the geophysical features of the area. Southern CA is prone to wildfires in dry months, and thanks to the enviro-moonbats not allowing controlled burns of small areas, these fires now have all the fuel they need to wreak havoc.

If GW is man's fault, why are the temperatures on Mars increasing?

Nam 65-66
I thought of reposting that great hit 76 Albores but I like this one better:

Old man Gore
- Apologies to Oscar Hammerstein II

Here we all post 'long the blog highway
Here we all post while the lib folk play
Posten' them blogs from the dawn till sunset
Getting no rest till the judgment day
Don't post fun and don't be a clown
You don't dare make the liberal frown
Bend your knees and bow your head
And pay that tax until you're dead
Let me go 'way from the blog highway
Let me go 'way from that liberal Gore
Show me the State that’s colored with red
That's the State where I long to put ashore.
Old Man Gore, that Old Man Gore
He must know something, but he rants about nothing
He just keeps lying, he keeps on lying along
He don't save power, and he just pushes a scam
And them that fights him are soon in a jam.
But Old Man Gore, jest keeps lying along
You and me, we pay and pay
Our earnings are garnished for our taxes you say
Tote that barge and lift that bale
You get a little stingy and you land in jail
I get weary and so sick of trying
I'm tired of living, but I'm feared of dying
And Old Man Gore, he just keeps lying along

The fires in CA are the
result of dry weather combined with high winds. The dry weather is caused by the La Nina cycle/el Nino cycle and it has NOTHING to do with George Bush, Globull Warming, or anything else that the communist (D) has put out in their latest big lie.

BTW
The "degree" of fire damage is caused by overcrowding and political choices made to satisfy the enviro-loons.

crumbrsmine
great sense of humor...

Forder
replying to "driveby" is like throwing gaoline on those CA fires.

Vic
You're probably right.
He also tried to explain why raising the minimum wage was just wonderful. I was going to explain why the government shouldn't set the minimum wage in a free market economy, and that wages should be determined by the need to produce and the willingness to pay along with a persons ability and qualification to perform a job. But, that doesn't "feel" as good as redistribution of wealth. They still believe that companies take that extra money out of their pockets.
Do you think a course in basic economics would help?

"Deniers"
Stalinist tactics by his adoring fans from the left? There's a shocker. Wait for Hillary's reign, and enjoy your time in the reeducation camp.

The latest fad
Hey all you AGW alarmists; don’t you know that your fad is now passé. The latest fad is Gamma Ray Bursts (GRB). The theory is that it resulted in the mass extinction of almost all life on earth at least twice and could happen again at any time.

The only problem for you guys though is to figure out how to turn it into an issue for the Luddites and a way to tax for the communists.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4198.html

Forder
The only thing that will help is for driveby and his other troll buddies to get tired of being here and go back to DU where they belong. They are not interesting in debate, only disruption.

GW Fanatics Worship the Earth
We should have seen this Global Warming fantasy coming years ago. It started with the Greenies urging everyone to recycle and PETA theoretically and actually hugging every animal species on earth and the tree huggers trying to stop all lumbering operations. They achieved some influence but not enough to satisfy their desire to control our lives. Al Gore, like a modern Pied Piper came along, crying, "We’re all going to die unless we do something about the weather and the environment," and, Shazam, the environmental movement has a leader and a majority of deluded earthlings. Of course it's all B.S. and only another way for one fanatical group to control everybody else's life. Their actions make it clear, however, that they really don't believe in God and will do anything possible to prevent humanity from flourishing and spreading out into the universe. They begin by hating themselves and extrapolate to hating humankind. Gaia, the earth mother, just chuckles, knowing that with just one gigantic belch she could create more havoc than a billion SUVs. What fools these mortals be!

Do I still have to go to work tomorrow?
Voluntary disclosure: I have a BA in Literature.

Will someone PLEASE explain to me why _anybody_ should give a bucket of warm spit about the sexuality of a character in a children's book?

The only way Dumbledore's sexuality (or lack thereof) affects me or anybody else is if it changes the price of gas or means I don't have to perform my daily functions.

I'm typing this from work so I guess all of this means absolutely nothing.

driveby, crumbs, treas, etc ad nauseum..
One thing that all of the above posters have in common is zero grounding in the physical sciences, specifically earth and planetary science. Another thing they have in common is the delusion that they can speak intelligently on any scientific topic. Come to think of it, these are the same things they have in common with Nobel "Peace" Prize winners.

Go back to your kindergarten sandboxes, boys.

Vic 7:44am
Loved the song! Living on the Mississippi River, everyone around here knows it. I actually sang your post while I read it (and almost spilled my coffee from laughing).

Gray Ghost
Thanks

teachlit7

I think you are posting on the wrong thread???

Chicken Littles
Does anyone remember the following:
Population Bomb, Global Cooling, Nuclear Winter, AIDS, DDT, Overhead powerlines, arsenic in the water, bird flu, obescity,

According to the same bunch pushing the GW scare we should all be dead by now. The current crisis is cow farts. Once this passes (pun intended) there will be a new crisis to consume our tax dollars. How about a super bug which does not die when zapped with pennecillin. Let's ignore the real threat of radical islam and focus ourselves on something we cannot control such as the amount of radiation coming from the sun. I'm sure other readers can add to the list of non-existent crisis which the alarmists have brought to our attention. We must live in an affluent country when over eating and global warming are the two biggest threats we must deal with.

Who is Dumbledore?
Who is Dumbledore?

Vic writes: Incredible parodies!
No WAY you just made that up!

I'm going to start a vicparody.doc to save this and the forthcoming others...If not under copyright of course!

I am reminded...
of the reason some profess to believe in God. They say "I believe, because if I am right then I'll go to heaven, if I'm wrong then nothing will happen anyway." vs to not believe and spend eternity in hell if God exists.

That always struck me as the wrong reason to believe and that the Creator will know your heart and your reasons for believing and will know your relationship with Him.

MMGW advocates know it's happening, they don't care to hear the reasons why, no matter how much proof there may be. They've picked their favorite theory and refuse all others. They cannot let another thought in, it HAS to be man-made, because OUR politicians, OUR team would NEVER lie to us.

Ron
Actually I did that one a few months ago. Ever now and then I will dust them off and maybe improve a few lines.

I started doing these back in March with 76 Albores. No they are not copyrighted, except to the original author. Parady falls under the "fair use" doctrine and I always try to acknowledge the original author.

The latest ones have been about HalD and Robert as I have beat Albore to death already.

Global Warming is getting colder
What you left out John S is that the Globe has been COOLING since 1999. Likewise the CO2 has been decreasing since 2003.

If you try to find the data you will be hard pressed because it is being buried. Probably under the back side of Gore, which much could be hidden.

Man-Made Global Warming is POLITICAL Science, JUNK Science. As a Physicist, specializing in Atsrophysics, this is just another Socialistic plot to Tax and spend. Pure Democratic Garbage.

By the way "tenatious republicans" you are not a republican, quit lying, get a brain.

Great Post John Stossel!

it had to happen
Last night on Fox news they reported that Barbara Boxer blamed the fire on G. Bush. She said because the national guard is in Iraq the fire is worse than it should be!

Hey, Brian
Watch yourself; my brother had 30 minutes notice to evacuate and the then unseen fire was into the neighborhood within 3 hours. 50 out of 125 homes were destroyed.

Bostguy112... I do not think she was
first... Harry Reid blamed GWB for cutting budget that could have prevented it. It's surreal.

Does Gore-Bull Warming create fires or
do fires create Gore-Bull Warming?

The earth just got a little hotter with all of these wildfires in Southern California.

You know, I drive every day around vast herds of SUVs, migrating from one part of town to the other, and never have I noticed them making the air hotter.

Compare this to a Chaparal (Brush) Fire, like the ones we are currently witnessing in Southern California, or the large number of deep sea hydro-thermal vents, or the volcanos that spew lava, or even the sun.

Liberal Loons
Is there no lunacy that the Liberal Loons from LaLa Land will not say?

"One reason why we have the fires in California is global warming," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) told reporters Tuesday, stressing the need to pass the Democrats’ comprehensive energy.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/wildfires-get-personal- for-lawmakers-2007-10-24.html

Three Questions
Three important questions:

1. Is global warming really happening?

2. What is causing it?

5. What can we do to stop?

Answers:

1. Probably, but it's been warming since the last ice age. Some studies show no warming since 1998. For argument's sake, let's just say "yes" to this question.

2. This one is really important. There's no real evidence that the current warming has anything to do with human activity. While plenty of reports make this conclusion, that's not evidence.

If the warming is natural, what can we do to stop it? It's clear that atmospheric CO2 levels haven't been a driving factor in past global warming periods.

5. If the warming is natural, there's probably nothing we can do to stop it. Even if it's man-made, we also may be limited on what we can do.

How many global warming activists have given up their cell phones, MP3 players, TVs, DVD players, radios, hair dryers, dish washers, clothes dryers, etc? If people who believe global warming is man-made won't change their lifestyle, how are we going to compel everyone else?


Brian
Just heard they recovered the body of a gent who decided to stay...

AGW Reality Check
"A goal without a plan is just a wish.", Antoine de St. Exupery

The AGW "affirmers" wish a lot of things. However, there is no single GOAL and there is no PLAN to achieve that goal.

Tell us how much AGW emissions must be reduced and over what period of time that must occur. Offer a plan to accomplish that reduction on a global basis. Then let's talk. I don't know what their plan would be, but I do know that it would not be "7% below 1990 levels by 2012". It might be "90% by 2050", as former US vice president A. A. Gore, Jr. "testified" to Congress in April.

Right now, all were getting is "humma humma". Can't justify much investment, or much pain, based on that.

JP... that's just it...
THEY HAVE TO COMPEL, or else no one will do what's neccessary.

As for Boxter, she's clueless, while there are Cali-troops in Iraq, Arnold just called up 1800 for the firefighting efforts and other states are contributing as well.

When confronted with facts...
...kooky commies resort to "Old Faithful": screaming "YER STOOPID!!!!!!!!!" at the top of their lungs. Thanks for the laughs, treason baby.

As for drivebyliar, conservatives don't oppose environmentalism. Conservatives INVENTED the environmentalism movement, starting with Theodore Roosevelt. Conserviatives oppose your kooky commie agenda of using the excuse of "enviromentalism" to impose your evil fascism on the world. For example, we opposed your agenda of murdering Africans with your outright lies about DDT. You and your bloodthirsty, murderous ilk are PERSONALLY responsible for 10s of millions of murders in Africa because of those lies.

Now you want to murder 100s of millions of more people by returning the world to the 7th century under the guise of "protecting" us from global warming.

Here's something none of you fascist kooky commies can answer: If your boy, AlGore®, were REALLY so concerned about the environment, and NOT pushing fascism under the cover of environmentalism, why does he live in a home that consumes more energy in one month than the average home consumes in a year? Why does he fly around the world in a private jet that consumes more gas in a single coast-to-coast flight than a Hummer H1 consumes in a year? Why is he a major stock holder of Occidental Petrolium? Why does he collect royalties for zinc mines on land he owns?

Why? Because the FACT of the matter is he, and you, are nothing but fascists lying about your "environmentalism", plain and simple.

To drivebyposting Re The Drill
Excellent example to use Erin Brockovich. Especially since that was a case so full of baloney sandwiches

http://www.fumento.com/mickeyerin.html

(kinda like Love Canal where Hooker Chem warned about the dangers at ever turn. Their orginal burial exceeded regualtions that didn't com einto effect for another 20 years, yet they were somehow bad guys.)

But OF COURSE
it's George Bush's fault....isn't EVERYTHING???

Incredible
One person claiming to be a scientist, and that person states that "the Globe has been COOLING since 1999. Likewise the CO2 has been decreasing since 2003." Up is down.

Yes, you've uncovered the biggest, orchestrated scandal the world has ever seen. Every single scientist (save a few, and I mean few individuals not a few percent) are in on this hoax and have modified their temperature charts and CO2 data because Al Gore asked (or told) them to. Amazing.

The Bush administration is editing CDC reports, especially regarding global warming. A "January report found 435 instances in which the Bush administration interfered into the global warming work of government scientists over the past five years.”

So, lets be clear about most TH posters positions: you do not believe the scientists, but you do believe this administration? You pay tax money for the CDC, tax money for the scientists salaries, and tax money for the research, then wave your hand and state that it is a hoax. No wonder you hate taxes so much. Now we have to wait for an adult administration to get our common sense back.

If Stossel, the most reprimanded "journalist" in America, is one of your sources, then good luck with second hand smoke as you read how good it is for you. You do realize that your heroes site nothing but op eds funded by Phillip Morris, ExxonMobile, etc. You want me to believe ExxonMobile over the scientists?

Al Gore is a spokesman, so if you are going to be childish and call him names, at least admit that your man Bush is the least intelligent man to disgrace the White House.

For ticabelle
Al Bore uses a very common approach used by many whose argument is not convincing--extreme wordpadding (basically making a 15-word short answer into a 5000-word novella) to bamboozle.

Ironically, he wasn't able to bamboozle the (stereotyped as rednecks) people of his own state.

RE: inthemajority
inthemajority screamed:
Yes, you've uncovered the biggest, orchestrated scandal the world has ever seen. Every single scientist (save a few, and I mean few individuals not a few percent) are in on this hoax and have modified their temperature charts and CO2 data because Al Gore asked (or told) them to. Amazing.

..........

There's just a little problem with your little theory: your flat out lying. Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte examined all peer-reviewed papers from 2004-2007, using the same search terms as Naomi Oreskes did (you know, the professor who declared that a "majority" of climate scientists support AlGore®'s "consensus view"), and found only 7% (of a total of 528 papers) gave explicit support for the "consensus view". Are you telling me you're dumb enough to think that 7% constitutes "Every single scientist (save a few, and I mean few individuals not a few percent)"?

Roadkill
Roadkill - you forgot acid rain and the depleted ozone layer (lesser examples but consumed the media for several years in the '80s and early '90s).

Also thrown in fluoride in the drinking water.

The irony of global warming is the only "off the shelf" technology available to generate enough "clean" energy is nuclear which will run these chicken littles off the cliff.

But you have to admit Algore was smart to blame CO2. CO2 is a normal by-product of animals breathing and any chemical non-nuclear energy reaction. Thus he has created an ambigious problem that can't be fixed until Al and his minions have gained political control of capitalism.


Al Gore is Chicken Little
Too bad many of us fail to recognize Al Gore is Chicken Little. Don't look now, but 'the sky is falling.'

treasonous republicans
"you are the stupidest man alive to think global climate change in a short amount of time will be anything less thean catastrophic"

You are a stupid man for ignoring history and only listening to the scientists that YOU want to listen to.

I listen to the scientists that promote MMGW AND the scientists that say that the globe is warming but it very well may not be caused by man and more than likely is not.

The only thing I argue against is the whole "debate is over" theory of science. It is ridiculous to declare the debate over just because YOUR scientists say it is.

There is a history of scientists getting it wrong on any number of things (remember the next ice age in the 70's?).

correlation != causation
Also : coincidence != causation either.

Consider this completely true statement.

"Every person who has eaten carrots has died."

So lets ban carrots!

AGW is a secular religion
It's been said before but bears repeating here: AGW is a faith-based belief system (ie. a religion), plain and simple. Since many, if not most, of the AGW proponents have shunned traditional religion they have latched onto this secular belief system - which, like its more primitive antecedents, require sacrifices to effect some control over nature. When viewed in that context the zealotry of its proponents is predictable.

Re: inthemajority & others of their ilk
"Every single scientist" (save a few who were threatened with death, like Galileo) declared the earth was flat. And "every single scientist" knew that the earth was the center of the universe. And all anecdotal evidence of extreme weather, like the Atlantic hurricane season of 2005 and the California wildfires of 2007 validate the existence of AGW. However, the fact the predictions for the 2006 hurricane season were woefully overblown and that Denver and Anchorage had record snowfall are, to coin a phrase used conveniently by Global Warming religionists, "anecdotal evidence" and prove nothing. The funding disparity between monies alloted to pro-AGW research and grants reputedly alloted by "Big Oil" are staggering (HUGELY in favor of pro-AGW). Do you think that may have anything to do with "every single scientist" jumping on the Global Warming Bandwagon? Local meteorologists cannot accurately predict the weather 3 days hence, hurricane models cannot predict the trajectory of a storm or its magnitude for the next 48 hours, and people like you want to sell the farm based on predictions of the entire earth's climate for the next 100 years or so? When someone can give me a compelling argument how the global climate has frozen and thawed for eons before man even walked upright, let alone industrialized, then maybe I'll listen to the AGW proponents. Until then, anyone who declares that "the debate is over" is selling something. Science is neither about concensus or ending debate. Stossel is right on the mark.

Boring
I did not scream, but nice try. It is not my theory, and I'm not lying. Does this pass for real debate on this forum? I know we are dealing with a Stossel crowd, but next time just get to the point.

What Klaus-Martin Schulte added was his own twist on the wording -- whether papers agree with "catastrophic" warming. Lets get past the fact that a man with a mission can create his own view, and get onto large bodies of scientific groups who come to conclusions based on their collective research.

The question is whether human activity is causing or adding to the cause of global warming, right? The following all agree as scientific bodies:

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
American Geophysical Union
American Meteorological Society
National Academy of Sciences

My argument would be much more forceful if the body the Bush admin trusted were listed, but... wait, I've just been informed that in 2005 the White House called the NAS “the gold standard of independent scientific review.”

So if you want to play an opinion splice game, I still agree with Oreskes (it has been published, but I do not think Schulte's results are out except in right-wing blogs). Unless you disagree with every major scientific body including the Bush anti-science administration's last hope, then good luck with all that.

The same questions
Forder and JefferyP

Why we have to keep answering the same misinformed opinions:

To Forder: I suppose you think big business will voluntarily take on the cost of cleaning the environment they love so much. No, they take what is un regulated and they dump their waste into it, because that is better for business - duh - it lowers the cost of doing business. The purpose of regulation is that every business has the same cost structure and no one is taking advantage of a chance to poop in the town square, rather than walk all the way to the bathroom.

If you think the free market functions well on its own, I would wonder then why the Fed recently pumped about, what? $7 Billion into shore up credit. Ooops. Other than that the freemarket functions perfectly without government interference.

To JefferyP: How many times do we have to explain that CO2 holds temperature in the atmosphere. There may be any number of heating or cooling cycles, but what is irreversible is that we have un-sequestered, we have mined Carbon that has been buried since the Cretaceous period. We don't know for sure but there is a very real risk that with all of that "new" CO2 in the atmosphere, heat will not escape. Then, that heat will oxydize the tundra and lower the solubility of CO2 in the surface of the ocean, releasing more CO2.

Those are not guesses, those are physical events we can predict, therefore not subject to debate. We can not predict exactly what the results will be, but who's rolling the dice here, some big corporations, so their stock prices don't suffer?

All of you AGW liars keep trotting out
the same lies that have been shown to be lies over and over again. Go find another bridge to hide under you worthless trolls.

The majority of scientists do NOT support AGW theories.

The U.N. panel is composed of politicians not scientists and were caught red-handed in deliberet fraudulent research.

To the trughes troll

If you love government regulation, taxes, and communism so much then get your sorry *** to Cuba and leave here.

trughes
So you are absolutely comfortable with the impact the changes you mention will have on our economy? That shouldn't even be questioned?

inthemajority
Basically the only thing that your posts present is the logical fallacy "Appeal to Authority". Furthermore, your appeal to authority is to politically motivated bodies or to bodies most of whose members are NOT experts in atmospheric science (IPCC). It is obvious that YOU are not a scientist, not to mention an earth scientist (I am, so don't bother going there). The fact is that in math or science all one needs is ONE counterexample to disprove a theory. Al Gore's "theory" that atmospheric warming is both catastrophic and caused by human activity is disproven by countless counterexamples. (Furthermore, this "theory" is based SOLELY on computer models, not on hard data).

Sorry, no cigar, pal. Your attempts at logical fallacies and painting AGW skeptics as paid shills or far right ideologues only show you for the fool you are.

LOL, Audir10
Regarding your 7:33AM post to me.

You don't have to worry about me, bubba.

I know this will probably surprise you, and many people, but I don't look to the government to protect me, take care of me, provide for me, or anything else.

Shocking but true!

I've made it to the ripe age of almost 59 by.... gasp!.... watching out for myself. Done a pretty good job of it, too, as I've already been able to afford to retire.

So, I extend my thanks to you for your concern in the same vein in which it was given. Basically, with my middle finger raised in salute.


Oh, btw, you obviously visited my blog. Pretty neat fire pics, aren't they?




Well
So Al Snore REFUSES to debate John Stossel and calls the The Debate on Global Warming OVER! What is Al Snore afraid of? If he is so sure that Global Warming is occurring, then he should EASILY defeat Stossel in a Debate. WHAT A SHOCK! Al Snore turns of to be ANOTHER Fat Gutless Coward of A Liberal Girlyman. From here on out, I request all TownHallers refer to Al Snore as Mr. Tipper Snore.

Globull warming DOES cause the fires
I agree with that thesis.

If all of SoCal were still under a pack of permanent sheet ice, obviously there would be no possibility of fire, as ice doesn't burn.

Of course, that does kinda leave mankind out of the equation. So sad.


BTW, before the industrial revolution and all the AGW, there would periodically be absolutely massive wildfires across the plains, caused by natural phenomena such as lightning strikes, millions of acres at a time.

Fires are a part of nature's life cycle. Kills off weak undergrowth, clears debris and underbrush, and paves the way for new growth.

Man! I hate to confuse this wonderfully emotional topic with such mundane facts! Forgive me!

EXCELLENT ARTICLE JOHN STOSSEL
EXCELLENT ARTICLE JOHN STOSSEL

Stare Decisis, Unequivocal, Settled Law/Science applied to Roe/Wade,Global Warming,Evolution, Embryonic Stem Cell sure cure.

The "next" big truism from the Democrats is Sharia Law was what the founders of our country really intended. Deny that you Holocaust Deniers.

Gore = Demagoge
H. L. Menken described a demagogue as: "One who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots."

Gore has brilliantly identified a topic, environmentalism, that approaches a religion with his liberal pigeons - second in line only to ending poverty. The beauty of this scam is it has added plus of using the implied lethal force of the government to seize the wealth of the evil, greedy corporations (where most of our retirement money is hopefully growing) to fix a problem that can't be fixed (the sun occasionally burns hotter).

This whole situation can probably be traced to government schooling. I'm guessing that they no longer teach the carbon cycle (I think we covered it in 4th grade science, where we learned that the sun heats up the ocean, which in turn gives off CO2...) and economics, where one learns that only producers can create wealth; that taxing corporations is just an indirect tax on the consumer.

So, Menken is proved true. Gore is a demagogue, and his followers a clearly idiots.

Liberals make their own playing field
I agree with you totally, John. There seems to be a pattern here. Whenever the liberal dems want to pile drive their position home, they simply create the ground rules on the spot. In this case "the debate is over"...

An ultra-liberal ex-boss's favorite way to win an arguement whenever she had a bone to pick was:

"I don't want to hear any excuses"...

Pretty easy to win a dispute when you make your own rules as they go along.

Woody
Coralville Iowa

How long
and how many times can Al Bore run from debates and interviews before people cop a clue? Honestly if the left needed a prophet couldn't they have picked someone with a brain cell? I have a a pile of bricks with more brains.


Why doesn't Al just stand on the street corner holding a sign saying "the End is Near"?

Correction
Last clause should read: "and his followers ARE clearly idiots."

to Vic
Could you explain to me how the free market could function without government regulation? Concentrate your thoughts on the banking industry and the fun we could have with speculation and advertising business opportunities.

Then, tell me all about the evils of Socialism in the structure of the U.S. military. I believe there ought to be laissez-faire military. Low pay, no regulation, and F...forget about a pension plan or education bill. Just Freedom!!!!! Oh, I forgot, we've already got Blackwater. Who needs a Navy, Airforce, and all those rules and chains of command. The government just writes one check a month.

Same goes for abortion. I believe every zygote ought to have the chance to walk free in the world without the oppression of having to be bound to its mother. Set them free, they are individual human beings with a soul. For God's sake let them be FREEE!

Let freedom ring!


Vic at 7:47 AM
You're no fun. The fires were caused by Barbara Boxer, and her relentless emissions of hot air, combined with her spoliation of the earth's timber to prepare oversized charts for Senate hearings. Not to mention the simple embarrassment she causes sensible Californians, which has contributed much to global warming, with all the red, heated faces here 24/7.

Stay safe, BrianR, and all other fellow SOCAL dwellers. I'm south of the fires in the Running Springs-Arrowhead area here, and actually seeing the air clear and the winds die down this morning. We're expecting the state highway that connects us with I-10 to be reopened this morning. A good thing we haven't had a fire here -- all our firefighters are in Grass Valley and Aguanga.

Vic
Don't worry about all of this AGW hysteria its all lip service.

Aside from Ed Bagley JR. virtually none of these AGW supporters have, or will make any meaningful sacrifice for their cause.

When it come down to brass tax people will chose their standard of living over some unproven theory

In fact the rather stunning lack of action by the supposedly 70% who believe this nonsense is very telling.

Apples and What
I read an article where someone was bashing Laura Bush for thinking that she was a Doctor of Breast Cancer and what makes her so important.
Whom I wonder when AL GLOBULL WARMING Gore became a certified SCIENTIST. Boy it sure shows when the other side wants to be considered STUPID.

Informal survey
How many of you AGW believers have?

1) Solar, wind or geo-thermal energy what%

2) Walk, carpool, or use mass transit daily

3) Give regularly to environmentalist groups

4) Cut your lawn with a manual powered mower

5) Thrown out your BBQ or never burn wood

To: JMind
I Drive a Prius.

I was going to leave it there, but maybe that's too subtle.

What if, instead of going to war in Iraq (though that option is now conveniently taken off the table) we put on contracts, for a project the size of NASA (but still about 1/10 the cost of the Iraq mistake) and we put out contracts to build a mag-lev across the U.S. which could take people back and forth across the U.S. at 600 mph without any friction in a vaccuum sealed tube?

That actually might be good for business. Our students, my children, might even be inspired to study science in order to advance the theoretical basis or find new sources of energy.

Today, we see ads on TV about climbing mountains, oops- that was actually one about killing people. Doesn't require much skill join the army and you may get a pension for life.

Is that good for business. No, all our jobs are going to Chinese who study science and Japanese who take advantage of our stupidity.

The Global warming debate
I wonder if Al Gore has taken the time to read "the skeptical environmentalist", measuring the real state of the world by Bjorn Lomborg.

I undertand that earlier this year, Mr Gore was scheduled to speak at some climate change forum somewhere in Europe and when he discovered that Mr. Lomborg was going to be in attendance, he backed out.

HMMMMMMM..............

JIMMY B.
Homosassa, FL

Big Companies Want Regulation
USCAP, a coalition of corporations and environmental special interest groups are busy selling out the free market. The following letter was recently sent to the Senate.

http://www.us-cap.org/USCAPLettertoSensLiebermanandWarner.p df

trughes: I don't try to debate trolls
I post songs

Hello, Commie, well, hello, Commie.
It's would be nice to send you back where you belong.
Your attitude smells, Commie,
we can tell, Commie,
you're still lyin', you're still cryin',
you're still throwin' bull.
We hear you plan on stayin
for your band's playin
one of your fav-rite songs from that ole Len-in.
So, don’t take his cr*p, Townhall,
find him an empty trap, Townhall.
Or Commie willl never go away again.

Hello, Commie, well, hello, Commie.
It's would be nice to have you back where you belong.
Your attitude smells, Commie,
we can tell, Commie,
you're still lyin', you're still cryin',
you're still throwin' bull.
We hear you plan on stayin
for your band's playin
one of your fav-rite songs from that Russian Len-in.
So, if you really give a hoot, Townhall,
Give him the mighty boot, Townhall.
Commie'll should go away,
Commie'll should go away,
Commie'll should go away and never come back again.

trughes
Your loathing of the military not withstanding.
What makes you think that the government can tackle that sort of enterprise with out completely bungling the job, I mean honestly these people can't agree on the simplest of matters.

BTW the Chinese and Japanese work for far less and are not operating under the onerous weight of the EPA,OSHA, and other government agencies too numerous to mention.

Trughes: LOL
You: "It doesn't take much skill to join the Army"


Hahahahahahahaha!

Spoken like someone who'd truly be cannon fodder in a war.

I remember when we'd get guys like you into the AO in Vietnam. Y'all never even lasted a week!

I see you're a teacher; maybe you're a woman. Well, let me put this into language you'll understand. It doesn't take much skill to get pregnant, either, or have a baby.

It does seem to be pretty important to our survival, though.

What a dolt. I can't believe you're trusted with educating anybody.

trughes
Your Prius is lying to you.

My all gas Geo Metro is more environmentally friendly, and waaay cheaper.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/hybridwatch01.ht ml

To: Citizen X
But the Germans have even stricter laws and they are doing quite well thank you. And have free health care and public transportation.

Oh and Vic: I've got my ears plugged and a I'm going "blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,I can't hear you". I forgot how well that worked back when I was 5 years old!

But you con's, go ahead and have your informed, mutual fun together. Ignore the people saying, "You can't poop there, that's the town square, that's where we all have to walk." Just ignore them. They are commies.

trughes -- w/o government regulation
quoth trughes: "Could you explain to me how the free market could function without government regulation?"

The answer to your question can not be answered within a 2000 character limit, and I don't have the initiative right now anyway.

So; and since I suspect you've never even heard of the concept in the first place; I would suggest you do a search for the term "anarcho-capitalism" and do a little light reading.

trughes
There is no such thing as "free health care" or "free public transportation". Someone is paying taxes to provide those services; and, the people who provide them are being paid to do so.

There are no free government schools in the US either; we are paying government big money for substandard services.

German unemployment is about double ours, which does not meet my definition of "doing quite well".

BrianR
Saw the pictures on your site this morning. Glad I am no longer out there in Diego (I was there for a short peiod in a "C" school).

One of the things that I remember well about CA was that brown dry grass that covered everything. One of my friends from there came out to visit me here in SC and could not get over how "green" everything was. LOL, after years of "brown" the green really stands out.

One question, does your fire insurance come at the same cost as "flood" insurance on the coast?

trughes
"But the Germans have even stricter laws and they are doing quite well thank you. And have free health care and public transportation."

Really?.. Do you also believe that their standard if living is equal to ours, or their level of medical care?

The average German can't afford much after their socialist government takes 60% of their earnings.

Come on, do you have any idea how expensive free health care truly is?

Vic
I'd imagine the insurance costs are comparable; they're simply different forms of natural disaster. Fires don't occur as often, of course, and we don't have the yearly hurricanes, etc.


BrianR and Citizen
I am not a teacher and I was talking about my actual children. I said it doesn't take much skill to "join" the army.

But strangely from all you bright cons, I didn't hear any response to my request for freedom in the military and the banking systems. Do you really think they could handle that?

As far as the prius goes, I guess if you'd been around when cars started out (maybe you were) you would have been the one to buy the horse-drawn carriage with the really-really improved springs.

My point, obviously too subtle, like said, was that often a society, by setting new goals, makes new technologies open up. Going to the moon is an example of how a social government program totally messed up, too. A total waste of time and money, but guess what...it worked.
And it encouraged a whole generation of students, obviously, you missed that boat.

Now, if you want to talk about total wastes of time that didn't work, we can look towards Vietnam, the Gulf of Tonkin resolution (a complete fabrication that got us revved up) and its inevitable failure, which was predicted during Johnson's administration by the CIA.

Of course government needs watchdogs, but this administration has destroyed that by being co-opted by Fox News, by intimidating scientists and allowing political hacks to edit scientific reports. How can any con say he's in favor of that?

Gore-Bull Warming or No-Bull Prize?
Is Al Gore full of Bull, or worthy of the No-Bull Prize?

Every time I hear something coming out of his mouth, I suspect it is Bull.

Gore-Bull.

BrianR
A friend of mine here used to have a house on a small lake located near here. The house itself was valued at app. 50K when I talked to her about it (years ago) and she had two separate insurance policies. One normal home owner's that cost about 300/yr and a separate federal flood insurance policy that cost over 3 times that (app 1000/yr.). She griped constantly about the flood insurance. I suspect that that same flood policy would cost about 3000/yr today.

Trughs
2 points.
1) Apparently you can't read. I said reasonable regulation = Good, regulation based on hysteria= bad.
2)The gov't threw 7 billion into the economy because morons like you don't have faith that the economy would adjust after people who borrowed too much money and defaulted on their loans. The way to stop this and send a notice to mortgage companies that there is a price to pay for reckless lending. People who don't pay their bills should lose their property. Fiscal responsibility would immediately return.
You = government is the answer.
Me= The market will adjust and adapt without the gov't constantly bailing people out.

trughes: huh?
"Freedom in the military"? What does that mean? "Sergeant, go take that hill!" "Uh, no, I don't think so. Too much firing up there."

What are you talking about?

The moon landing was a waste of time? The space program? The source of the science that made your vaunted Prius and hybrid technology possible?

Also, I see you apparently had no witty riposte -- or even unwitty, which seems more your metiere -- about the "skill" level required to get pregnant and have kids. Even less than to join the military. At least for that, you have to pass some tests and have a clean record.

It seems any maroon can have kids.


I am against "the environment"!
There IS NO "the environment"!

There are hundreds, if not millions, of environments.

This is how this propaganda campaign makes headway; inventing words or distorting the meaning of others.

My current environment is temperature controlled at approximately 76 degrees. I do not foresee sudden temperature changes in the near future.

At the same time as these left wing scum try to put forward the idea that mankind is somehow inferior to the rest of the planet, that we should subdue our ambitions and expansion for the sake of a non-existent environment, or to protect our competitors in the race for survival, they are also arrogantly suggesting that these same, flawed, inferior humans can actually manipulate or control the climate.

I prefer active control to passive. Doing more rather than cutting back. If these idiots want to experiment with "environments", let's build a colony ship and let them tinker with the climate of Mars.

Whether it's ice age or global warming, the goal of the scare tactic is ALWAYS the same: to control people.

The Germans have it better?
"But the Germans have even stricter laws and they are doing quite well thank you. And have free health care and public transportation."

Free health care? No, it's subsidized health care, and they end up paying for it through taxes anyway. Those who have it receive biased treatment. Anyone who's ever lived there for an extended period of time--as I have--knows that those with private health care plans receive better, prompter care. Sounds to me like a case of the free market doing a better job.

Let's not forget the massive taxes, stagflating economy, and persistent unemployment that exists there too. Funny that a lot of successful German car companies have outsourced many operations overseas to North and South America. What about the fact that they've got a right-leaning chancellor right now? Do the Germans finally realize that their flirtation with socialism has been a flirtation with economic stagnation?

Trughes
Your hysterical! You wrote:

What if, instead of going to war in Iraq (though that option is now conveniently taken off the table) we put on contracts, for a project the size of NASA (but still about 1/10 the cost of the Iraq mistake) and we put out contracts to build a mag-lev across the U.S. which could take people back and forth across the U.S. at 600 mph without any friction in a vaccuum sealed tube?

How are you going to build anything when the terrorists keep blowing it up. You know , the terrorists that promised you they would, just like they did in the 90's. The terrorists that you say we shouldn't fight. Just leave them alone, like Clinton did in the 90's. How'd that work out for you?

The Germans have it better?
And the Germans may have public transportation, but it certainly ain't free.

trughes
Invading Iraq was not a mistake. Trying to nation-build instead of conquering was a mistake, but you liberals wouldn't have let us do the latter anyway.

As for a cross-continental mag-lev... leaving aside the issue of vulnerability to the terrorists you apparently don't want us to defeat...


Will it allow people to travel on it whenever they want? Will it allow them to go anywhere they want? Can they choose their exit point? Their entrance point?

The problem with mag-lev or any mass-transit system for the U.S. is, for the time being and thank God, the American citizen is too independent-minded to be herded along like cattle.

Why the airlines survive is a mystery and a warning that even Americans can become sheep.

Why not a massive NASA like program to crack the formula for creating petroleum? If mother nature can make oil in a few million years, we should be able to do it in a few decades.

Imagine where the world and liberals would be if one day a U.S. lab were to announce, "Oh, yeah, btw, we figured out how to make oil out of commonly available organic compounds like coal, manure, and vegetable oil." Suddenly the Saudis no longer have a lever, the liberals can no longer hide behind scarcity to push their shackling of mankind, and the rest of us get cheap gasoline.

Even a NASA like program to bring back the hydrocarbon compounds on Titan would be worthwhile. Who knows what could be made from those?

Trughes
So you drive a Prius. Big deal. My vehicle is a hydrocarbon-powered eco-vehicle. Na na na na na! :)

Anyway. How will you and the other hybrid-drivers dispose of the batteries as the technology improves and compacts the power source? How much energy and what kind does it take-and how much carbon is now emitted-in manufacturing and maintaining those things in the first place?

It's fine that we have the technology to make hybrids work. But let's not get all puffed up about a vehicle that will itself be obsolete eventually as technology moves forward.

The earth: We didn't create it, we didn't place it, we don't sustain it, and we cannot end it. It was here first.

trughes
Your disjointed rant leaves me wondering where to start.
You said: "As far as the prius goes, I guess if you'd been around when cars started out (maybe you were) you would have been the one to buy the horse-drawn carriage with the really-really improved springs.

My point, obviously too subtle, like said, was that often a society, by setting new goals, makes new technologies open up."

Consumer demand has always driven innovation
Never the government, NASA not withstanding and even there competition for federal dollars (the consumer in this case) is what allows for true innovation.

And it is consumer demand that will eventually improve the Prius or relegate it to the scrap heap.

So spare me your self important sophistry regarding the subtleness of your thinking.

When you clearly haven't the slightest clue of how capitalism and technological advancement work hand in hand

GW and fires
It's not global warming starting all these fires. It's arson.

If you can find a direct correlation between global warming and arsonists, please expound.

CalVRWC -- Correlation
"If you can find a direct correlation between global warming and arsonists, please expound."

Clearly the arsonists are upset at how little Bush is doing to combat AGW.

Once again, it's Bush's fault.

RE: inthemajority
"What Klaus-Martin Schulte added was his own twist on the wording"

Incorrect, but nice try. He used EXACTLY the same process the earlier person did in that survey. EXACTLY the same -- as in NO differences.

The only reason you don't accept HIS findings is they totally DEBUNK your entire "every scientist on Earth" myth.

"Lets get past the fact that a man with a mission can create his own view"

As proven by AlGore® and his fascist supporters.

"Unless you disagree with every major scientific body..."

I would be you were that the case. Oh, and the IPCC is NOT a "scientific body", it is a political body. Were you not a fascist with a mission, you'd have known that. In fact, per IPCC policy, any section included in their report actually written by scientists are edited to, in THEIR words, "ensure compliance" with the "Summary for Policymakers", which is NOT written by anyone with any scientific background whatsoever, but by a political body.

Sorry, but the FACT is you have either been duped, or you are among those doing the duping.

RE: trughes
"But the Germans have even stricter laws and they are doing quite well thank you. And have free health care and public transportation."

Yeah, after all double-digit unemployment and an economy barely out of recession are just SPLENDID!

Ever wonder why Germany is always among the leaders in industrial exportation? The reason is that the people who make those products can't afford to buy them! MASSIVE trade surpluses are signatures of a whole bunch of third world nations (not to say Germany is third world...give them time, though). They produce products they can't even afford to buy themselves, so they sell them to somone else.

Trughes
CitizenX didn't take long to cut you up and slice you in neat pieces. Perhaps you will think twice about coming on here with condescening, supercilious rude comments.

It's not global warming starting all the
Get a clue, why not put the blame where it squarely belongs on the enviro-nazis who sued to stop all forest and brush clearing that was drastically needed to eliminate the fire hazards to begin with. All of the forests burning down over the last 5 years were effectively off limits to all logging and thinning. The result over 5 million acres burned down and the culprit the radical green fascists say is global warming!

What a nice scapegoat. You cause the problem, you cause the forests to turn to ash and then you blame yourselves? NO, you blame the great boogie man of our time, global warming! How convenient.

We should sue every enviro-group and the judges who supported these radical Luddite paleo-socialists and indict them under the RICO statutes!

But no! The do nothing "lets join the lemming left" republicans don't have enough back bone to do anything but cave and follow! Silly Republicans backbones and ballskies are for men! If you find a candidate that is one, I might vote for them!


LOL, Craigers!
Well said!

Dr Science Fact Library I
1.Gore and left wing environmentalists claim debate is not needed or wanted because there is a "scientific consensus" about human-caused "global warming" Historically, I have found the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of the weak minded or those spreading ideas for hidden reasons. It is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled
2.Gore claims that polar bears in the Arctic are in danger of extinction, perhaps within 25 years, all because of global warming. What he again forgot to mention was the fact that according to biologists who study the animals, polar bears are doing quite well. Biologist Dr. Mitchell Taylor from the Arctic government of Nunavut, refuted these claims in May when he noted that “Of the 13 populations of polar bears in Canada, 11 are stable or increasing in number. They are not going extinct, or even appear to be affected at present.”
3.A consensus? what Algore didn't tell you is that There are nearly 18,000 signatures from scientists worldwide on a petition called The Oregon Petition which says that there is no evidence for man-made global warming theory nor for any impact from mankind's activities on climate.

Dr. Science's Fact Librairy II
SILENCING THE CRITICS
1.Today's version of yesteryear's inquisitors include people like the Weather Channel's Dr. Heidi Cullen, who demands that the American Meteorological Society (AMS) strip their seal of approval from any TV weatherman expressing skepticism about manmade global warming.
2.The National Academy of Sciences report reaffirmed the existence of the Medieval Warm Period from about 900 AD to 1300 AD and the Little Ice Age from about 1500 to 1850. These are history records Gore wishes would disappear. Both of these periods occurred long before the invention of the SUV or human industrial activity could have impacted the Earth’s climate.
3.April of last year, Time Magazine devoted an issue to global warming alarmism titled “Be Worried, Be Very Worried. This is the same Time Magazine which first warned of a coming ice age in 1920’s before switching to warning about global warming in the 1930’s before switching yet again to promoting the 1970’s coming ice age scare.
I'LL BE BACK

Dr. Science's Fact Librairy III
1.The ice-core data is frequently cited as principal evidence to argue that CO2 is the earth’s main climate driver. It is, in a way, the jewel in the crown of the theory of man made global warming. But the ice-core data does not show that CO2 drives climate. It shows, very clearly, that variations in temperature precede rises in atmospheric CO2 – not the other way round. The two phenomena are divided by a time lag of several hundred years.There is no evidence that CO2 has ever ‘driven’ the climate in the past, nor is there any compelling evidence that it is doing so now.
2.On March 19th of this year “60 Minutes” profiled NASA scientist and alarmist James Hansen, who was once again making allegations of being censored by the Bush administration? In this segment, objectivity and balance were again tossed aside in favor of a one-sided glowing profile of Hansen. The “60 Minutes” segment made no mention of Hansen’s partisan ties to former Democrat Vice President Al Gore or Hansen’s receiving of a grant of a quarter of a million dollars from the left-wing Heinz Foundation run by Teresa Heinz Kerry. There was also no mention of Hansen’s subsequent endorsement of her husband John Kerry for President in 2004

Global warming is caused by the sun
No amount of left whacko taxation and surcharges will make any difference. You can google solar system warming and get a couple million hits. All the planets and moons are warming and not from CO2 anything.

I live near the Atlantic Ocean where the barrier islands are 18 inches above sea level. If the oceans were rising, there would be water in the streets. The truth is barrier islands are not supposed to be permanent. But, as people have now populated them, nature's tendency to roll the barriers over and move them further out is probably out of the question.

It was warmer during the time of the Greeks and Romans, and they didn't whine about it. They celebrated their spring festivals in February and expected March to be dry, so armies could take to the roads again. It's for Mars, god of war, March is.

10,000 years ago glaciers covered NJ as far as Morristown. The Morristown Great Swamp is a leftover glacial lake like Lake Erie or Superior. Somehow Jersey warmed up. It didn't come from SUVs or coal-fired power plants or even mammoth farts. It came from the sun.

And, even during the great ice ages, there were periods of tropical temperatures. Weather and climate are not the same thing. Mr. Gore has not even learned that difference yet.

My new favorite AGW line
when liberals respond to the evidence that it is not as hot as 1934----

They say- That's only in the United States.

I say: Oh really?

Then why are they calling it GLOBAL warming?

Whatever the USA is doing must be an antidote for AGW. Lets get everyone to drive SUVs, have a bustling economy, and never build another nuclear power plant.

Why do U.S. residents have to change anything we are doing when our temperature is going down?

Global idiots.

Another great line is the one about CO2 creating a greenhouse layer that acts just like greenhouse glass.

As if CO2 fuses together to form an impenetrable barrier.

Idiots.

to BrianR citizenx
I actually had to do some work so I will try to catch up. I might have to run because I want to go see Richard Gage AIA give another talk: the Architecture of Destruction. Sorry, but many of you are just completely missing my points:

a) I explained why I said I drive a prius, becuase the Japanese took the idea that fuel costs might rise and profitted from it.

b)Forder obviously knows precisely where good regulation ends and where bad starts. I don't know how he does that, but I can guarantee that the attitude "Either you're (note correct spelling) with us or you're a'gin us (deliberate)," combined with the attitude that any thing the president does is legal by definition won't help you get good government.

c) back to BrianR, sorry maybe I'm dense, but of course it takes no brains to have kids. Think of it as Evolution's way to increase the random crossing of DNA, a way to possibly find the human best able to survive the coming cataclism in climate.

d) Oh yeah, you're the one that said I wouldn't survive the army. Maybe not seeing that I do question things and look what happened to Pat Tillman, when he started saying he didn't think it was a good idea to go into Iraq. Three bullets in his forehead within a two inch radius (medical examiner's report). No I probably wouldn't, but I will tell you in anything but an imperial army that kind of behavior wouldn't be tolerated.

Thank you, Trughes!
For a totally irrelevant response to my comment to you.

Pat Tilghman, killed by friendly fire. Yep, it happens.

Thousands of women, at least, die in childbirth. Your point?

Oh, wait! Please don't tell me you think that was some government conspiracy to "shut him up"! That would be WAAAY too moronic!

But if that's your position..... Well, then shall we re-examine the "suicide" of Vince Foster? Want to discuss the "Arkansas Mafia" and all the "suspicious" deaths linked to Billy Clinton's presidency? The "drug links"?

How far do you really want to go with this?

I've got lots of time. I'm retired, and love bashing moonbats with facts and logic.



to jdw:
Gee, I thought the small technologically advanced "new" army was Rumsfeld's idea. In fact, I'm sure it was, and not the Liberals'. Check your facts.

The rest of your post is gibberish. Because you just slightly contradict yourself about Americans and sheepliness. But I guess you realized that, so I won't make a big deal. Obviously a few truck-lines could take a majority of traffic out of the air.

Since you don't have the slightest idea of chemistry, I won't be too harsh, but chemical bonds only release energy that was previously input. All the energy we get out of petroleum was put there by plants. That's why it's almost free to get the energy out. To manufacture petroleum can easily be done, but it would cost more then we get out (sorry the second law of thermodynamics jumps in here). But if you start talking about collecting Solar energy or producing biomass in the desert or those sorts of (Lefty) things, you might start making sense. But, dang, the germans, japanese are probably way ahead of us on those, because they have been taxing petroleum use and developing alternatives rather than starting wars to get it.

Oh wow I'm so scared
of all those deaths during the Clinton administration. Much more than the death and destruction than during the Bush...except, of course, well, 9-11 goes into the Clinton column, because he was still running the national defense at that time and he was just ignoring classified documents that W was sending to him regarding the threat of AL Quaeda. If you don't know how I feel about that charade ,why don't you look into the evidence that came out during the Moussaoui trial. Interesting how hard the FBI Head of the Bin Laden unit tried to keep the field agents from investigating his laptop before the 9-11 attacks, including a reprimand, after they tried to circumvent him, and removal of the FISA application. (The application was a dead ringer, because the information accusing Moussaoui came from overseas - automatic approval.) But that Head of unit, David Frasca was promoted after the attacks. Colleen Rowley won woman of the year for whistle-blowing the case, but she was driven out of the Bureau. I can't believe you guys, ex-military and all that just think someone should be promoted after he stepped in to stop an investigation, (not really the FBI's job, to stop investigations) that could have instantaneously prevented 9-11.

But apparently you haven't heard that the conclusion of the medical examiner's report was that the friendly fire had to have taken place from within 10 yards. That doesn't sound too friendly.

You guys must think you're still in the chain of command. But you're not. Start thinking - that's the duty of a civilian in a democracy.


trughes
I too had to step out for a while, me evil carbon producing employer actually expects that I
earn my check....Some people’s kids..

I do not hold any real animosity towards you, how ever I believe one should have the courage of
Ones convictions.

I just do not see this with the AGW crowd, they talk about sacrifice but they never really make them, a Prious or compact fluorescent does not count.

And when presented with a clean alternative to coal or oil power plants i.e. nuclear, the knee jerk reaction is NO NUKES (can you hear the chanting?)

Scared, Trughes?
Why should you be "scared"? There's no threat from me, implied or otherwise.

Unless you're "scared" of logic.

Most people exhibit some fear of phenomena to which they're unaccustomed. That's normal.

Other than that, again your post is simply another liberal diatribe that's totally unresponsive to what I wrote, absolutely hyperbolic and doesn't make any attempt to actually adress the flaws in logic I raised.

Thanks for playing. You can go back to the kiddie table now.



Everyone go turn up the thermostat
I am here to warn everyone about Global Cooling, its coming.

Be afraid, be very afraid, I am warning you all

trughes
"I explained why I said I drive a prius, becuase the Japanese took the idea that fuel costs might rise and profitted from it."

I applaud your effort, unfortunately you have been duped, the Prius gets no better mileage than a Geo Metro at 4 times the cost, in addition there is the environmental mess created by the batteries when this vehicle has reached the end of its life.

The Japanese are not stupid they saw you and your kind coming from a mile away. This has nothing to do with fuel costs and everything to do with stroking your eco. Ego

A Serious Question
This is not meant to be smart-alecky, but is sincere. If the temperature of the Earth has risen about 1 degree over the last 100 years why are the caps melting?

That would imply that the caps used to be hovering just below freezing, and are now just above freezing. Aren't the poles about 70 degrees colder than freezing?

OK. Correct me if I am just plain ignorant.

In just months the oceans will all be
FROZEN!

I will be selling warm weather gear.
Some snuggling smoothies for the ladies made from chickadee down
You can contact me at 555-555-5555

I have never heard any more complete bs in my life than this global warming scare.

quote:
First he won the Oscar -- then the Nobel Peace Prize. He's being called a "prophet."

"the debate is over."

Gore will be known as one of the biggest fools in the history of mankind.

dstorm
The melting reported is very selective. Some parts are losing ice and some parts are gaining ice. It doesn't help the GW crowd to have the gains publicized. While certain ice sheets in Antarctica have been shrinking the ice on the main body has been increasing. Don't tell anyone.

Al Gore is, in reality, the Goracle.
Al Gore = Goracle = The self deliverer, self anointed authoritative person who divines the future of Global Warming.

talent scout
Like I explained to Vic earlier there is no cause for alarm.

It's all lip service, when it comes to real sacrifice for the 'cause' the AGW crowd doesn't have it in them; they continue to produce CO2 in prodigious quantities just like the rest of us.

They are no different than us in this regard; they are not willing to sacrifice their comfort for an unproven theory.

Relax, let them squeal, in the end they are irrelevant.

Irrational Response
Spending trillions of dollars and putting more of our lives under government control (the real purpose) is not going to affect global warming to a degree sufficient to justify the action. Spending less money to mitigate the effects of the small amount of warming that will most likely occur is money much better spent.

When has most of the spending done by government made sense? The last time was the period between the War of 1812 and the Mexican War. Down hill after that.

trughes
Where is your passion?
Where is your commitment?

A Prius is the sum and total of your dedication to saving the planet?

Should you not have an orchard of solar cells in your yard, and use public transportation exclusively, and cut your grass with a manual mower, and never..ever BBQ or burn any thing?

Would you not do this for the children..the children?

trughes
Your silence is DEFANING!

22 feet or 22 inches?
I'll bet the rise of the oceans is not the only think Al Gore exaggerates about.

Don't believe me?

Ask his former girlfriends!

I know

Citizen X
I just find the whole affair as one big joke, and just having some fun is all.


This may be the only proof algore is right and we are experiencing global warming.

http://66.175.38.157/globalwarmingproofsmall.jpg

Mountain Rose
Truth in advertising is dead, that’s why the Nobel comity gives a prize to Arafat (proponent of peace?...nooo)

How ever your analogy is very funy. LOL

talent scout
"This may be the only proof algore is right and we are experiencing global warming."

You’re right, we are warming, and we will cool, and we can't change this cycle...ever.

Bludgeoning idiots with the night stick of truth is fun though.

Boy, talk about the green-eyed
monster. Stossel is about as jealous as a man can get over another man.

You doth protest too much my boy.

peace

See
Once again the liberals lack the courage of their
convictions.

Do as I say, Not as I do.


Cowards!

patriotic democrat
How about a comment on the debate at hand, and not on the perceived motivations of the author of the column?

Or is this too much for you?

trughes
In case you missed it.

Where is your passion?
Where is your commitment?

A Prius is the sum and total of your dedication to saving the planet?

Should you not have an orchard of solar cells in your yard, and use public transportation exclusively, and cut your grass with a manual mower, and never..ever BBQ or burn any thing?

Would you not do this for the children..the children?

Gore impugns skeptical scientists....
by saying "the illusion of a debate has been purchased."
****

This from a person who makes a profit from selling carbon offsets.

Those with their hands in the cookie jar shouldn't accuse others of that which they are also guilty of.

True science is always debated and questioned. Even to this day scientists regularly question and debate accepted theory, such as the ability to travel faster than the speed of light. Scientists apply new knowledge and understanding to old theories with the goal of either disproving or substantiating those theories. In the process sometimes they make discoveries which change life as we know it.

Proof of global warming....
Last January I started recording the temperatures in Chicago, and by July it was obvious that we are all doomed! The temperature was increasing by an incredible 10 degrees per month!

But before I could convince everyone to destroy the economy and adopt a prehistoric earth-friendly life style, fall arrived and now its cooling at an incredible rate. The next ice age has arrived! We are all doomed!

Pretty silly, isn't it.

The Goreites claim the planet has warmed by about 1 degree in the last century. Wow. I'll remember that next January when the wind chill here is a toasty 40 below, instead of 41 below. If that keeps up, in another 500 years someone might notice!

But that 1 degree per century depends on the period you are measuring. Just like my example at the beginning.

In any case, since CO2 FOLLOWS temperature instead of leading temperature, any human contribution to CO2 levels has nothing whatsoever to do with global temperature.

Christopher Parisho
Do not confuse the liberal with parallel analogy.

I have been trying for some time now; their dogma is beyond reason...sadly

Dupe Me Once, But Not Twice.
I was duped when the country went crazy over Y2K.
I won't be duped on this one.

People aren't worried about God's judgment, but the threat of 20 ft seas make you think twice.

Oh! I forgot, global warming is based on real science, and God is a myth.

I live in the mountains anyway. If the price is right, when the sea rises to 2ft, I'll swoop places with you.



foxfire22
"People aren't worried about God's judgment, but the threat of 20 ft seas make you think twice.?"

Their not worried, look in the driveway of your local liberal, check his yard for solar cells, you will see none of the commitment demanded of the rest of us.

Do you see the Emperors new cloths?

GW is real
But it's unlikely controllable by pol. gimmicks like Kyoto or the jury-rigged taxes, fees, and surcharges Dems. want to control your lives with.

If all energy has extra taxes, surcharges, etc., your choice of housing, transportation, education, career, vacation, et. al. are all directed by some ageny (-ies) in DC.

Republicans have proved to be not perfect or terrific, but they are not going to take over your entire lives based on specious theories espoused by people who 25 years ago were whining about global cooling and the coming ice age.

In the '70s the hysterics were predicting mass starvation, oil depletion, and glaciers in NYC by 2000. None of those things came close to happening.

These hysterias are all meant to drive pols. to make decisions favorable to the hysterics and their pol. goals and often contradictory to real health and comfort.

The 70s decision to end DDT because it was supposedly keeping raptors from multiplying ended up causing the infection of 22,000,000 worldwide with malaria and the deaths of c. 2,000,000 yearly from malaria. We've been without DDT use (it's starting again in Africa) for 35 years: that's 70,000,000 deaths on the heads of those who pushed for and enforced its ban.

Let's not do something so stupid over GW.

Global Warming Debate
Science is not a debate, it's observation made of factual evidence which seeks to prove or disprove.

Consistent replication of factual evidence in science is what supports a theory; theory must be falsifiable - meaning that it is capable of being disproved.

"Global Warming that's happening is man-made and man's contribution is significant" at this time is falsifiable. Is man-made global warming capable of being disproved? Yes.

Why?

Because experiments show that attempted replication of data do not produce the same results within a percentage of error showing the "theory" to be true and consistent.

Science does not live in the man-made world of crisis - politicians do and we must question the motivations of those who would.

You must then decide the following:

Which scientists are we discrediting?

By what criteria are we discrediting them?

Which data are we discrediting?

By what criteria are we discrediting the data?

Who gets to decide the criteria by which we are discrediting both scientists and their data?

Citizen x
You have no idea what I do or don't you so shut up. What right do you have to even presume anything? we are discussing policy. You want me to start presuming what you do with your dog at night. That is called ad hominum and considered bad debating tactics, so shut your face.

Besides, you morons I have said repeatedly,

1.it is provable that CO2 holds heat back from radiating back to outer space. FACT.

2. It is known that we are mining Carbon that was sequestering millions of years ago undergroud and we are adding to the CO2 in the atmosphere. FACT.

Try to deny those two facts.

As a result, scientists and people who can see what might result have said our policy should try to ward off the cataclism that might come from the extra warming that will result from adding the cretaceous era Carbon back into the atmosphere. This kind of logic does require that you turn off Fox News.


trughes
Stop watching MTV for your science news.

Then explain to us all why in all of known history, the Earth has cooled during periods when CO2 levels were at their highest.

Then tell us why the USA is not warming but other countries (which ones we don't know) are warming? How many are warming and are there others that are cooling? Are the ones warming a sign that the colling ones will reverse direction and begin warming or are the cooling ones ahead of the curve and the warming ones will soon be cooling?

How many countries need to be warming to make AGW official? 51%? 75%?

I can't call your logic faulty because you are not using any. If you trust the same measuring techniques that the IPCC contributors use, the facts are undeniable. Temperature increases preceed CO2 level increases and the USA is not warmer than 1934.

You have to suspend what is proven in order to follow the AGW herd, which is what you have chosen willfully to do. Then you go a step further and try to convince everyone else to suspend what can be proven so you can feel the typical liberal superiority syndrome in your head while the rational folk look at you in stunned disbelief that you are buying into this AGW scam.

Actually, this is probably true.
"You will not live long enough to see global warming!"

Ok here's the drill.
The Drill SAYS:

In fact quite the opposite, environmentalism created markets.

WOW!!! I’ve never heard anything so insane in my life. Are you trying to "drill this into our heads? even though its a load of @#$. Look at your gas prices. When gas goes up so does everything else. Production goes down. Investment drops off. Employees laid off. etc...

I work for an engineering company and I can tell you first hand the destructive and costly nature of environmentalism. We finally got the contract (which would employ thousands) after extensive, timely, costly, burdensome removal of a endangered fly that you would swat in your house.

I also lived in Albuquerque NM and they desperately needed a bridge across the Rio Grande River. What should have taken less than a year, actually lasted 4 years and quadruple the cost because we needed a home under the bridge for bats.

So drill get your head out of the sand.




Please get your head out of the sand and face reality

crumbsrmine writes:
I could care less what you call the recent weather phenomenom and changes that have already occurred but it is asinine to write articles blaming politicians for bringing the fact to the public sphere. That is why Al Gore won the Nobel Peace prize, so get over it!
To think that it is not going to be catastrophic
is also goofy. Unpredictable change in weather patterns is here today and the fires in CA are a prime example of this change. The jet stream is stronger, temperatures are warmer, conditions exceptionally dry, all uncharacteristic of the month of October. This unstability while not caused by direct human behaviour doesn't change the fact that the weather is changing and blaming Al Gore for bringing our attention to it is more responsible then denying it

What is it about government control that you don't understand Mr. crumb. The more gov. control there is the less freedom you have.

What happened to our schooling system.

HARRY REIDMAKES A FOOL OF HIMSELF AGAIN
Harry reid, of course a democrat, blames everything thats happening in califoria on Globel Warming. A true demogogue. And then theres the fools that believe him. What is the appropriate name for them?




trughes writes
Thank you Trughes. Your left wing lunacy has disgusted me enough to leave this site for another. Hope your happy

Stan writes
In any case, since CO2 FOLLOWS temperature instead of leading temperature, any human contribution to CO2 levels has nothing whatsoever to do with global temperature.

I just love logic. Good write stan.


trughes writes:
Besides, you morons I have said repeatedly

These liberals are funny to read and listen to. They are the true modern day comics. what’s really funny about them is they don’t realize how ridiculous they sound.

It may be Extinction, not Global Warming
Early this year, Scientific American published an article on how most of land and sea life had been extinguished a few times before, when there was a rise in CO2 followed by a rise in Methane followed by a rise in H2S. The CO2 caused more Methane to be produced. (That could explain the following: "But the movie doesn't tell you that the carbon increases came after temperatures rose, hundreds of years later." The Methane could have been more of an actor than the CO2.) Then the Methane caused a more rapid warming. Right now that is happening in the permafrost ground. Then that warming caused the H2S in the seas to start being released. Right now that is happening on a small scale. The poisonous H2S then killed most of the land and sea life before. What we do not know is whether we are on that same slippery slope. --- I was born in Southern California when there was no smog and a lot of oil being pumped. Now, there is smog everywhere even though our cars are "fixed" and very few operating oil wells since Southern California and Texas are well past "Peak Oil".
Very Respectfully, Michael @ RecoveryByDiscovery.com

PS on Y2K
I was not duped on Y2K and tried to tell all I knew that it was no big deal. I was an engineer and few would listen. Now, I wrote above that we really need to get our scientific act together on how much risk we have on extinction instead of just global warming. See "It may be Extinction, not Global Warming" above. ---

The sun is a small contributer to the greater energy on our surface. We even have micro weather differences over cities because roads and buildings take in and radiate more heat. John wrote: "Some scientists say the warming may be caused by changes in the sun," They are not very good scientists, since most scientists know that the sun has been a small contributor. They have tracked the sun constant (that is not constant) and have determined it is not a significant factor, so far.

Very Respectfully, Michael @ RecoveryByDiscovery.com

Peace prize for not talking to opponets?
How could they give a "Peace prize" to someone who refuses to even talk to the opposition? I used to respect that prize, but that is now all gone, and that saddens me!
Dr.W

King
Some of us just don't trust the Government to keep us safe from the enviroment. I am still wondering why we can trust the scientist that say they can predict the weather for the next 100 years or so, but they are more often wrong than right about the next week. That and the "Practice what you Preach" approach might have something to do with it. It sure would be nice to figure out a way to use water for fuel. Just add heat to the oxygen/fuel(hydrogen)/heat triangle.

Will the Debate ever end?
This is an excellent article about the nature of consensus.

I think that many bloggers not only have not a clue about how science works -- they don't seem to even have a clue that they don't have a clue. And that's bad . . .

You can see more about this here, "Will the Debate on Global Warming Ever be Over:"

http://libertydesirebelief.thechartersofdreams.com/2007/11/ will-the-debate-on-global-warm.html


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