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Wednesday, September 12, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Cuba Has Better Health Care than the United States?
by John Stossel
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Cuba has great socialized medicine -- much better than the half-socialized system the United States has, according to Michael Moore and his documentary "Sicko."

"They believe in preventative medicine," Moore says in his movie. "And it seems like there's a doctor on every block."

To prove his point, Moore took some sick 9/11 rescue workers to Cuba. The group, with a camera crew tagging along, was treated at a showcase Havana hospital.

"I asked them to give us the same exact care they give their fellow Cuban citizens. No more, no less. And that's what they did," Moore insists in the movie.

I asked him if he really believes that.

"Oh, I know that's what they did," he told me. "One of the 9/11 rescue workers sneaks out of her hospital room, goes downstairs and pretends to be sick. She said the same exact process took place."

I suggested that was because Cuban authorities send tourists and dignitaries to special clinics.

"They didn't send us there. We went to a number of clinics," he said.

It's an average hospital?

"Yes, they have a clinic in every neighborhood in Cuba. This isn't just me saying this, you know. All the world health organizations have confirmed that if there's one thing they do right in Cuba, it's health care. There's very little debate about that."

Oh, there's plenty of debate.

Cuban-born Dr. Jose Carro, who interviews Cuban doctors who have moved to the United States, says Moore's movie lies. Dr. Darsi Ferrer, a human-rights advocate in Cuba, told us that Americans should not believe the claims being made. He describes the Cuban people as "crazy with desperation" because of poor-quality care.

George Utset, who writes The Real Cuba Web site , says Moore and his group were ushered to the upper floors of the hospital, to rooms reserved for the privileged. "They don't go to the hospital for regular Cubans. They go to hospital for the elite. And it's a very different condition," Utset says.

For ordinary Cubans, health care is different. A YouTube.com video, posted by a woman from Venezuela, purports to show the two forms of health care, one for the privileged who pay in dollars and a far inferior one for regular Cubans.

Moore claims Cubans live longer than Americans. It's true that a U.N. report claims that. But the United Nations didn't gather any data. "The United Nations simply reports whatever the government in Cuba reports, so we have no objective way to know what the real statistics are," Carro says.

Exactly. Communist countries are famous for hiding the truth. Twenty years ago, when I reported from the Soviet Union, officials insisted there were no poor people in Russia, but they refused to let me look for myself.

Why would we believe the Cuban government's health statistics?

Cuba claims it has low infant mortality, but doctors tell us that Cuban obstetricians abort a fetus when they think there might be a problem. Dr. Julio Alfonso told us he used to do 70-80 abortions a day. And here's an even more devious way of distorting infant-mortality data: Some doctors tell us that if a baby dies within a few hours of birth, Cuban doctors don't count him or her as ever having lived.

Moore told me: "All the independent health organizations in the world, and even our own CIA, believe that the Cubans have a pretty good health system. And they do, in fact, live longer than we do."

But the CIA does not claim that Cubans live longer than Americans. In fact, the CIA says Americans live longer.

When I pressed Moore, he backed away from the claims his movie makes about Cuba. "Let's stick to Canada and Britain," he said, "because I think these are legitimate arguments that are made against the film and against the so-called idea of socialized medicine. And I think you should challenge me on these things, and I'll give you my answer."

Next week in this column, and this Friday on "20/20," I'll take him up on that challenge.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Cuba DOES have GREAT Socialized Medicine
But that's like saying a housefly is BIG for an insect.

A housefly IS big for an insect. Just don't compare it to a full-grown Clydesdale.

Cuba does thing right.
We should model the United States after Cuba. The we could have the utopian paradise that the Cubans enjoy. After all, Cuba has a leader that they love so much they insist he remain in power for five decades. We give ours the boot after four or eight years.

The standard of living enjoyed by the average Cuban is far superior to that of any American, so much so that many Cubans come to our shores in hopes of enticing our citizens to return home with them where they too can enjoy the good life.

Michael Moore understands just how wonderful life is under communism, and he should be praised for his willingness to suffer under the rigors of capitalism just to remain here and tell us what we are doing wrong. Moore just goes to show what whiners the people under Stalin were, and one understands why Stalin decided to kill them by the millions.

The influence of the LEFT
It amazes me that in a civilized, technical, educated(?) society that Moore and other charlatans get a moment's publicity. What a waste of resources to have to analyze and answer the claims of a self-absorbed, communist phoney that man is. I would like to think that in "My Day" (the fifties) he would have been ignored or laughed into oblivion.

I can just see...
...the thousands of wealthy foriegnors going to Cuba for health care instead of the United States.

Cuban doctors underpaid
I live in a West African country which receives about 100 Cuban drs. annually for a term of about 2 years. I have to admit, they are very good -- no wonder, they tell me they study out of American medical textbooks in med school!

But do they come here b/c they are good Communist philanthropists? No way. They are here b/c by coming they earn 3 times as much as they would in Cuba, giving them the opportunity to save up for a house or a car, which they normally can't afford.

Oh, yes, and how much is 3 times their normal salary? $100. whoopee. Even the doctors from this poverty-stricken W. African country earn more than that.

Another morning.....
....With the satirical comments of "Loyal Democrat". Good one, fella -- the REAL Leftists could hardly be more over the top!

Please.
I'll believe MM when he takes advantage of those great health systems by moving there. PLEASE move there, go away. Go anywhere else and spew your lies. Then we can take yuou seriously.
Just go away and don't let the door hit you in your fat a$$, (your good side)

Brian
I know you have better understanding of his skills than your comment about Loyal Democrat! Tell me you do understand his exaggeration better than you show in your 6:17 AM post?

cancer survivor
I am a cancer survivor because I and my doctors reacted quickly and removed a cancerous gland within 15 days of diagnosis. Had I been trapped in a government run health system I would not be sitting here today reading and typing

uwcharlie
Loyal Democrat is a satirist, and a darned good one. Today, while he made me laugh, he disappointed me a bit in that he went so far over the top, I thought for sure no one would take him seriously, and that his satire would be obvious for all eyes to see.

Clearly I was mistaken. Well done, LD!

LD
You make a great point about how self-sacrificing Moore is to continue to live here in spite of the abject horror of capitalism. Every time I see him I pity him for the suffering he daily endures for our sake. I say he's earned a break. Let's relieve him of everything that capitalism has inflicted upon him and give him a one-way ticket to that utopian Cuba. The poor man has earned it - can we, in good conscience, do less for him?

Mr. Right 8:13 am
I for one will gladly donate a few dollars to see him leave.

smokeykahn
Thanks, some days I need to be slapped upside the head to realize I'm not with it at that time. It must have been the coffee today. Brian was right on, as usual.

uwcharlie

Cuba rocks
I think Cuba is a model country for all us americans to live by. Castro is loved and respected in his country. Cuba has great cigars! Socialized medicine in Cuba is far superior to that of the US healthcare system. Doctors may be underpaid, but that is ok...they have beach front property. The elite hospital rooms you claim Stossell, where do you get your evidence? If I have the money I want an elite room so I can smoke my cuban cigars and drink my tequila. Moore's movie depicts the true living conditions in Cuba. I am sure there is propaganda as well in the movie...just like the false propaganda our White House proposed to sell the invasion of a defenseless country. Just like the propaganda our white house claimed to illegally wiretap and listen to americans phone conversations. What makes George Bush any different than Fidel Castro? Fidel may have murdered some of his own people. George Bush has wrecklessly and negligently send thousands of soldiers to their death, fighting for no cause, but to further His own self interests and that of Big Corporate america. George Bush is no different than any other ruthless dictator....Bush does not give a rat's behind about the american people. What has Bush done for the american people? Education? healthcare? medicare? social security? homeland security? immigration reform? american's civil liberaties? The list goes on and on....Bush is a piece of garbage who should be thrown in jail along with his but buddies Cheney, Rice, and Rumsfeld....Heck, thrown the whole administration in jail.

"BANDADE DOCTORS"
During the comparative economics period debating economic differences between the United States and the then Soviet Union it was common for the communist pr press to purport that they had more doctors per capita than the United States and the western democracies. This was their ways and means to tout the superiority of the communist economic-social system. Deeper inspection to the claims was all but impossible and interviews with medical healthcare professionals at the lower levels forbidden. What was eventually revealed was that the term “doctor” did not translate into professionally trained by international standards Doctor of Medicine, but instead meant someone who could attend to minor problems from babysitting to applying a bandage or administering aspirin. In effect, “doctor” was a division of labor needing minimal skills training without formal education in science, philosophy, technique and theory. During the Communist dictatorship, Russia did produce fully trained medicos but their services were directed towards the class of political and economic elites, not the working classes and today many of these physicians have immigrated to the United States or other countries offer them personal freedoms.

Tom, your dementia
shows. I heard from Michael that the Cubans have a cure for that condition. You could skipper a reverse boat people barge for the like-minded. The short sail will alleviate the long queues at the admissions desk in Miami ER rooms.

Health care cost?
Health care premiums rise 6.1%, far outpacing wages

This will be a big issue by 08. If the GOP does not understand this problem and come up with real solutions, 08 will not be good for the GOP.

USATODAY-Health insurance premiums rose 6.1% this year — the lowest rate of increase since 1999 — but that fact offered little solace to employers and workers, who have seen overall premium increases rise far faster than wages or inflation during that same period.
So says a report released Tuesday by the non-partisan Kaiser Family Foundation, which annually surveys about 2,000 employers and publishes a detailed review of costs.

“Health insurance is becoming increasingly unaffordable for many employers and working people in the country,” says Drew Altman, president of the foundation. “We’re seeing this more and more every year.”

The average cost of a family plan purchased by employers this year hit a new high, $12,106, according to the survey. Individual coverage premiums averaged $4,479.

While the percentage of the premium paid by workers stayed about the same as last year, the dollar amount paid by workers toward their share of family coverage rose $308 to $3,281. Single employees paid an average of $694 toward their coverage, up $67.

Wages rose an average of 3.7% this year, and inflation went up 2.6%, Altman said.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/health-care-premiums-rise-61-far-outpacing-wages

The Secret to Cuban Health Care
Bring along an American camera crew.

Who cares what MM or Castro says?
Do you really think Moore or Castro are known for tellling the truth? I am not pleased with either party right now but give this some thought. Which party do you really think will work best to:
1. keep America safe from another 9-11 attack
2. keep taxes lower and maintain the tax cuts now in place that have fueled our economy the past 8 years.
3. support our military financially and verbally.
4. seat constitutional federal judges who will make decisions based on established law and not political correctness.
5.Protect our freedom of speech and right to gun ownership
6. Protect the family, and marriage as God intended between a man and a woman.
7. Stop illegal immigration, work to deport those here illegally when they are caught breaking the law.
8. Support the rights of our children to read the Bible, pray, and express their faith in a school setting.
9. Assure that "In God we trust," and "Under God," remain on our money and in our pledge.
10. Continue the ban on partial birth abortion and work to limit all abortions.
11. Work to cut crime, the flow of drugs, and stem the explosion of sexual transmitted disease.
12. Protect the rights of pastors freedom of speech from the pulpit as they speak out about what the Bible calls sin.
13. Work to find alternate sources of energy, and develope our available natural resources.

One party sees the very real danger of Muslin terrorism as the number one issue we face as Americans in 2008. One party sees the number one issues as global warming and national socialized health care. Which one do you really want in control. Our future depends on the right selection. Do we really want to be a Cuba? A Mexico? or a Russia? Our health care now is the best in the world, its costly, but the best..

You mean Moore lied?
I'm SHOCKED -- SHOCKED, I tell you -- to learn that Michael Moore is a liar!

Not. Headlines that read "Michael Moore Lied In Movies" are like headlines that read "Dog Bites Man" or "Water Is Wet".

It is shocking when Michael "I cannot tell a truth" Moore actually utters something that is true. Seriously, you walk up and ask Moore what 2 + 2 equals, and he'll tell you "57876, YOU NAZI BUSH SUPPORTER!!!!" The man is utterly INCAPABLE of the truth.

How Does Cuba Subsidize Healthcare?
Michael Moore & Rosie O'LardA$$ send Castro a dollar for every pound of their body weight.

Michael Moore is Sicko
Round and round we go, and where we stop nobody knows.

If Cuba is a bastion of "preventative medicine" I propose that Michael Moore emigrate there and check himself in immediately before he dies of obesity or diabetes. They can even do a brain scan while they are at it to see if he really does have one.

Government entitlements DO NOT WORK. When will we figure that out??

Social Security is a failure. Medicare and Medicaid and Prescription Drug Coverage and No Child Left Behind, FEMA, Welfare...I could go on, but it is making me feel sicko.

Here's the deal with health care: Tort reform (loser pays/toss out frivolous suits), Insurance for Catastrophic coverage only in a free market system that crosses state lines, NO government mandated insurance of Anybody!, Less government red tape, and closing the door on the Illegal Alien problem that is bilking our system of MORE than just health-care dollars - but is also closing hospitals because they are going bankrupt.

That's the list.

Quit bashing the quality of our health care. If it is expensive it is because we demand extraordinary care without room for a bad outcome, providers have to CYA with multiple tests that may not be needed, the system is bogged down in paperwork and late payments from insurance companies, and the government has exacerbated all of this with mandates and red tape regulations.

Michael Moore
is the poster child for the dumbing down of America. If anyone believes that Cuba has better healthcare I have a bridge to sell you.

Cuba is a closed society
Cuba is a closed society, and anyone who believes the hype about it is a fool.

And here's my standard challenge to those who do believe: If Cuba is so progressive, why hasn't Castro stepped down so that a woman or a black could rule?

Supply and Demand
Health care will always be expensive as long as people continue to want the best care possible.

There is a solution to this problem, but you're probably not going to like it.

1. Allow anyone to practice medicine.
2. Outlaw malpractice suits.
3. Do away with patent protection for pharmaceutical companies.
4. Eliminate private health insurance.

These alternatives to high cost health care are available in many third world countries.

mrs. paddy
Brilliant! If I read your post correctly, you are more or less advocating for an HSA type insurance system. High deductible, lost cost insurance with an attendant savings account over which the policy holder maintains control and which acts as both a slush fund to pay the deductible and an incentive to control costs by allowing one to keep any unused portion of the savings account.

You are also correct about SS and every other government entitlement. I would add all of the ag programs which include commodity price supports and food stamps.

tom
you're a $ u c k ing communist idiot. I'm from cuba and I can tell you that I would have to send medicine to my family in order for them to get well. They have to bring their own sheets to the hospital. There is no food on the shelves. Even the cigars you talk about are not available for the people of the island. Sugar is rationed. When goods come in, you better bring something to put in, example, deli meats are handed to you in your hands, no glad baggies there. Whenever a shipment of food comes in, the people stand in long lines to try to obtain these things. And don't bring up the embargo, this country can get goods from china, like everyone else does. I don't know where you live, maybe in a hole somewhere, but maybe you should leave the US if you hate it so much. Wake up and get your head out of your a$$ you moron....

SAILING
JAG

I am building a raft in Key West and will be sailing for Cuba. MM and like minded can have a place on said vessel for one year's wages US ($50,000) which is quite a deal when you realize that we'll be heading for paradise on earth, Cuba, with its wonderful freedoms including but not restricted to universal healthcare. Does anyone know if Cuba has a wet foot dry foot policy? Hope we can evade the Cuban Coast Guard, they really have their hands full trying to keep people out of Heaven.

FOWG 1:33 nailed it
It is a sad sign of the times that there is even a public discussion regarding Michael Moore and all of his nonsense and deception. Think of all the productivity lost on this! Is it worthwhile? If we ignored MM and concentrated on discussing relevant issues, would there then be more mindless, know nothing people accepting his unfounded conclusions then there already are? Any input is appreciated.

Gimme Some Truth
According to the World Health Organization, Cuba does have more doctors per person than the US; we have more nurses and dentists. Of course, having more doctors doesn't mean having better doctors.

The US gov't spends $2548 per capita on health care, and almost all of that on Medicare and the CHIP program. What countries spend more? Denmark, Iceland, Luxembourg, Monaco, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. That's it. Those other countries that trend towards socialized medicine: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Portugal, Spain, and the United Kingdom . . . their governments spend LESS per person on health care than the US does! But everyone is supposed to be covered. Cuba spends $183.

Now, what does this mean? Is it proof that the price of health care in the US is too high? Sure. Is it also an indication that the quality of care received under socialized medicine may not be the best? What do you think?

Anyone who agrees with moore....
I will pilot the boat and you all be on it. I want you to have the BEST healthcare in the world and I will even pay for the fuel for the boat. I will drop Tom and all his friends off and return to the good ole U.S.A. and have my colonoscopy done to get all the crap out of my system from listening to Tom and his friends!!

question ?
Are all of you claiming that the US healthcare system is the finest in the world?

It appears the our public education system that produces doctors and researchers might be the best in the world.


If Cuba is so great...
If Cuba is so great, why are people not trying to escape from other countries to enter Cuba? Why is there not a boat lift back to Cuba? Why are people not going to Cuba for elected medical procedures that are the "best" in the world?
I go to the VA for medical care. I go to a civilian provider for anything that I need done. The reason is VA it takes 9 to 18 Months, the civilian Health care I can get it done in 2 weeks, and be back to work, and out of pain. I would not wish Government VA Health care on our enemy. The Market system is what makes the US the best.
There is nothing wrong with VA. It is as great and wonderful as the Government can provide, but it can not be compaired to, or expect the care given from the Market Civilian Sector!!!...

The Sick(o) Truth
According to the World Health Organization, Cuba does have more doctors per person than the US; we have more nurses and dentists. Of course, having more doctors doesn't mean having better doctors.

The US gov't spends $2548 per capita on health care, and almost all of that on Medicare and the CHIP program. What countries spend more? Denmark, Iceland, Luxembourg, Monaco, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. That's it. Those other countries that trend towards socialized medicine: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Portugal, Spain, and the United Kingdom . . . their governments spend LESS per person on health care than the US does! But everyone is supposed to be covered. Cuba spends $183.

Now, what does this mean? Is it proof that the price of health care in the US is too high? Sure. Is it also an indication that the quality of care received under socialized medicine may not be the best? What do you think?

Sorry For The Double-Posting
Dang slow-a$$ server.

bibi
No question there are problems with the way we do business in the medical system.

However, closing your eyes and pointing to the government to fix it, when government is part-a Large part -of the problem - is silly.

Need health care?
Join the military, serve honorably, and its yours for free.

Admittedly, the VA system is not perfect but I do not expect perfection for free.

Maybe if the Dhimmicrats could prove that socialized health care works in the VA system they could convince Americans that it will work for all Americans.

Of course, that would be Mission Impossible. So, instead, the Dhimmicrats will force you to be more Cubanesque since only they know what is best for you. To get good care, we will probably have to travel offshore where quality clinics will be established to avoid the Dhimmicrats totalitarianism.

LD for president
Check out his website. He is running.

He has great ideas on ending poverty.

LOL

Mrs Paddy
First you state it is broke but government isn't the body to fix it. Then who is? Business?

Insurance and Drug companies, HMOs, etc making record profits, paying CEOs millions. They don't see a problem to fix.

40 million uninsured, let em suffer and die. Make room for cheaper labor.

Right On !

fsudenny
Why do we have a VA ? Why isn't Aetna, Bluecross, and the other insurers underwriting our vets to give them the "BEST"

Could it be profits? Maybe them Dhimocrats and Republorats should put the bucks up and take care of out vets.

Moore's Trip To Guantanamo
Michael Moore rode a boat to a point just offshore from the Guantanamo Bay prison, grabbed a megaphone, and called for those inside to provide health care for the 9/11 workers he brought with him. His point was that the foreign fighters imprisoned there received better care from the US gov't.

Some perspective on this from the last GREAT Republican president (Reagan was good but Ike was great), Dwight D. Eisenhower:

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom."

Now I'm not saying that 9/11 workers shouldn't be taken care of; they should. When you work for an agency of the gov't you should receive the attendant benefits of that agency. But when it comes to the point of Moore's movie, which is a push for the adoption of Universal Health Care, Ike had it exactly right. Government isn't here to take care of us; it's here to provide a means for us to take care of ourselves.

The other day, John Edwards said that under his UHC plan everyone would be REQUIRED to go to the doctor at regular intervals. . . . REQUIRED! Is it in everyboy's best interest to see a doctor once a year? Absolutely. Should visits be mandated by the federal gov't? Absolutely not. It's called Life, Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness, Mr. Edwards (and Mr. Moore); it isn't called Gov't Tells Us How To Live.

kingsXrulz
Why require everyone to get an education?

health care
the debate is not about if Cuba is a wealthy country... it is how it spends what wealth it has and it has elected to put some of it into health care for all.

From the US Census: The number of American children without health coverage rose from 8.2 million to 10.6 million from 1987 to1996, overall a period of relative prosperity. In Cuba all their children have health coverage. The population of Cuba is 11 million.

Instead of squawking about Michael Moore how do you propose we come up with a way to offer health care to our kids. Heck let em crawl out into the streets and die. May you walk for a month in minimum wage parents shoes.


one question
who among you takes fatso seriously?

Loyal Democrat
Your inspiring words are so true "Loyal Democrat". Your great wisdom shines as a beacon to all Proletariats and workers of the world. If only these Running Dogs of Capitalism had your vision and concern for the oppressed masses of Western Imperialism, then this country could truly become a Workers Paradise as envisioned by such heroes of the working class as Marx, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Kim Gong Il; and greatest of them all; MICHAEL MOORE. You're an inspiration to all of us. Keep up the good work, and on with the Revolution.

jondo & chicaree
You both have such a gift for hyperbole.

HMO was instituted by the GOVERNMENT...see Teddy Kennedy

Yes, we need insurance reform (free market, catastrophic coverage only, HSAs would be good)

We also need tort reform. We need to stop providing "free" (read tax-payer/insurance client funded) health care to illegal aliens.

Why do you suppose pharmaceutical companies have high overhead? Where do most innovations in medicines and medical procedures and inventions come from? Who bears the cost of that?

Reduce government red tape.

Why do you have a problem with CEOs earning a lot of money when you don't bat an eye at TV stars getting a half-million an episode?...but I digress

There is NO justification for government run universal health care. Fix the real problems, don't invent new ones that are worse than the disease.

You really don't want socialized medicine. It's not compassionate. It is stupid.





The Solution Is Simple
What is the problem here...the cost of medical insurance is too high. Ok fine; can someone please explain to me why we have medical insurance in the first place? The idea behind insurance of any kind is crazy. We pay a company for protection in the off chance that something might happen to us (medical problems, a car wreck, a home fire, whatever). And if something does happen, we are either at the mercy of the insurance company (because we've spent all of our money on premiums) or we say to hell with the insurance company and we fix the problem ourselves.

Now these supporters of socialized medicine to trade one worthless master (the insurance companies) for an even more worthless master (the federal government).

Can someone please explain the logic of this to me?

I said it before and I'll say it again, the solution to the high cost of our healthcare is simple. Remove the insurance companies and remove the government influence. Turn healthcare back over to the private, free market (where it belongs) and watch the cost of our healthcare drop like a stone.

Of course to do this will also remove power and control from the politicians and CEOs, so unless the people of this country force the issue, we'll proably end up under the same piece of s*** socailized healthcare system that the rest of the world suffers under.

mrs paddy
Good suggestions. Now get to work on those. Reining in drug companies might be a good start. They tinker with their formulas so they can patent old medicines and make a mint. sure it is expensive to field test new drugs but don't forget the big governmnet subsidies they are getting to do that.

Tort reform is a VERY good place to start. Our health dollars are not buying health care it is paying insurance companies and lawyers. But don't forget they have strong lobbyists with lots of dollars to spend. Lobbying is not a bad thing it just when they have big bucks to pay into candidates campaign accounts and they are in fact buying votes. So don't hold your breath on taking the insurance companies on. You can bet they are supporting both parties.

And finally don't forget when the uninsured can't get medical care they wait til they are seriously ill and have to go to the emergency room for treatment. There is no way they can pay the bill, the hospital is not going to offer it for free, so they just add it to our bills when we have to use the hospital. So we are paying for their health care. We just have to figure out a better way of doing it.

chickaree
You seem to have a fairly good grasp of the situation, although you failed to mention the 'free' care doled out to the illegals.

So, how do you see the Government as the solution?

I don't believe in government subsidies, but were the drug companies being bashed for high prices? If you had to develop a drug for public consumption, what kind of liability do you think you might carry? If drug companies didn't 'tinker' we'd still be following the take two asprin and call me in the morning line.

Universal Health care sounds so wonderful on the outside, but it is sub-standard care on the inside. I've observed the NHS in England, the high tax burden in Germany for similar government entitlements. Canadians are not happy with their government-run health care.

Why should we settle for mediocrity when we have a robust health care system. Is it broke? Sure. But let's not adopt a government-run system. It's just good money after bad.

I remember a time when I paid for my childrens' doctor visits out of pocket. That is what we need to get back to. Allocating our resources to pay for what we find important. Not some Gestapo-esque program like Edwards advocates with "mandatory" check-ups...soon to be followed by mandatory weight loss, smoking cessation, and low-fat diets...

mrs paddy
You really don't want socialized medicine

Explain to me what insurance is.

A short story:
An uninsured American broke her finger and went to Scripps Hospital in San Diego. After about a 30 hour wait in the ER room she had orthopedic surgery and was released. The bill was in excess of $20,000 (the chair in the waiting room was free).

Meanwhile, during the same 30 hour period, streams of illegal immigrants flowed through the ER room. Many required immediate interdiction (ie. gunshot would, drug overdose, etc.) Their bill was zero.

I wonder whether had the American spoke Spanish, dyed her hair and toned her skin (and perhaps lied on the admissions forms) whether she would have had free health care?

Be-Gone
All who believe that MM is right and Castro has great medicine; then Go to Cuba. Take Kerry, Gore, Clinton and Clinton, Shumer, Durbin, Feingold, Feinstein, Pelosi and Murtha with you!

jondo
I'm not a fan of insurance, as you would probably glean if you looked at my posts here.

I think we should pay as we go, have insurance for only catastrophic illness (sort of like we don't pay for routine maintenance on our cars but protect our investment with insurance coverage in the event of an accident and ubiquitous law-suit to follow)

And that insurance should be in a free market that crosses state lines (like auto insurance can) to keep costs low.

I think HSAs seem like a good plan.

One of the big fallacies in all the statistics is to corrolate the numbers of un-insured as an accurate reflection of lack of access to health care. They do not equate. Many young people choose NOT to insure for their health costs (being young and healthy) and choose to self-insure or spend their money on things of more importance to them. Their right, btw. Also, they often include figures for those between jobs, or whose spouse covers their insurance as "uninsured"

There's lots of good information out there if you look for it.


fsudenny
Your point is that if it ain't broke don't fix it? I believe that was Michael Moore's point. It is broke. Everywhere you look. Unless you are the top 1%

JUST ONE LOOK AT IT -- ARGGHHH!
I'd agree with the implication that, in so many words, the tub is going to need a few plugs before somebody kicks it to kingdom come.

It would be my strong suggestion that someone put it in a really fast boat to Cuba so it can get the plugs it needs or will so badly need in the not-too-distant future.

CHICKAREE!
Someone with my views, particularly the drug industry! How novel. How refreshing. How unusual. How unbelievable (to most people, who have not really delved into the subject).

Thank you!

Socialized Medicine in Germany
I read some german newspapers occasionally. In today's Franfurter paper, there is a report of a study just released about how doctors feel.

If you can read German, you can find it here:
http://www.faz.net/s/Rub61EAD5BEA1EE41CF8EC898B14B05D8D6/Doc~EDE07286082C3430CA994F5A649F1F7F5~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

Only one in five doctors feel their situation is good. Half consider it bad. Over half want to quit. 59% don't want to work in a hospital. One third would not become doctors again if they had it to do over. 93% wish they would get paid more. 72% want shorter hours.40% are working 60-79 hours a week.

(Interesting how Germany has a 35 hour work week for everybody else but doctors have to work as long as there are patients.)

For those who don't know this, a doctor's pay is fixed by the Socialist government. Last year, doctors in Berlin went on strike.

The report concludes that Germany is facing an alarming shortage of doctors.

THAT'S the crux of Socialized medicine. Do we want our health care in the hands of a fumbler who doesn't care because it is the best paying job he can get...because his betters have quit or never even started?

This is the kind of health care Michael Moore deserves, not what is available here.

jondo
I'm a retired disabled Navy Vet.
The VA takes 6 months to get me an appointment but they do their best.
I have Tricare Prime for Retired Military which costs $460/year and includes my family.
With only a $12 co-pay and $3/prescription which do you think I use most?

Good, Fast, Cheap - choose any two
Applies to healthcare.

Re - education (couple posts up), No, absolutely not. It's absurd to require everyone to be educated. Rather, it's absurd to require children to sit in government schools until they are what? 15, 16? I'm not sure what the drop out age is. Let people train for a trade if they are not academically minded. That would be wonderful. Let them apprentice beginning at age 10, 12 - whatever - so they can work up to being a master carpenter/electrician/plummer/blacksmith, etc., by the time they would normally be graduating from high school - or dropping out. Harry Potter goes off to wizarding school at 11. That seems to be a good age to get going on whatever it is you want to do as an adult. You're done being a kid and ready to start acquiring real knowledge.

The average civil war soldier had only a fourth grade education - and this most likely in a one-room schoolhouse taught by non-union, non-college graduates and particularly not by any education majors.

The average civil war soldier was much more literate than today's high school students - and many college students. They wrote beautifully and exhibited a clear knowledge of classic literature, Shakespeare, politics, history, geography, music, poetry, and so on. I suspect the majority of them sandwiched in this college-level learning around a home life that involved chores, farmwork, craftwork, hunting, fishing, caring for family members, and general responsible behavior.

Why do we have VA
One big reason is that almost every VA is next to a Medical University. They are all teaching institutes. Every time I go to the VA the majority of clinics have a MD inturn that sees me. Each is there for 3 to 6 months.

VA is a government medical institution that is run by the numbers according to the government way. Much like the DMV or the court system, it is set to provide accoring to the Law.

Ms paddy and all others re insurance
The insurance issue I brought up was the liability insurance for Doctors.
My daughter is a Physians Assistant and works at a clinic.
She told me she would have left $10,000.00 per year to live on if she had to cover her liability insurance herself. The Clinic covered it. That is one black hole that is soaking up our health care dollars that must be closed. Lawyers can continue to haul in millions if someone is misdiagnosed.

The drug companies really hits my button with their TV ads. My doctor tells me that some of his patients come in and demand the medicine that is advertised even though he tells them it has nothing to do with what is wrong with them. He said he usually gave in rather than argue with them. Those ADs are costly. Who pays for them? We do when we buy drugs. There's another big black hole sucking up our health care dollars that needs to be closed. Other countries block them from putting out the ads.

Sure socialized medicine has it pitfalls. Canada is not perfect and neither is Germany but all their citizens are taken care of. We need a shoe that fits here and socialized medicine may not make it here. But we have to start looking at the problems.

John Kerry's plan might have worked. Everyone gets insurance coverage. Those that have it already stay on it, those have none will get gov. assistance to sign up. There would be reduced costs of care becuse every one is now healthier before waiting for care until it is emergency room level. And black holes plugged we might be able to afford it. It would be worth a try.
And it would not be socialized medicine. Thats my two cents worth.

Can't wait
Being that I no longer have TV, Town Hall is my only way to get my dose of Stossel-brand Libertarianism. I can't wait for the next column to imagine Michael Moore squirming at the very indignity of being called on his lies and "half-truths."

jondo
jondo wrote: "Why require everyone to get an education?"

I assume that's a reference to my comment that the government's role is not to tell people how to live (which it isn't; its role is to make it possible for the people to live better, freer lives). The Preamble to the Constitution reads (with interpretations added by me):

We the people (not the gov't), in order to form a more perfect union (a Federal Republic), establish justice (rule of law), insure domestic tranquility (avoid civil war), provide for the common defence (national defense), promote the general welfare (see below), and secure the blessings of liberty (the right of self-determination) to ourselves and our posterity (from 1787 until the end of time), do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

So, what does "promote the general welfare" mean? It DOES NOT say "provide welfare"; it does not say that the gov't will create programs to provide unlimited services for its people. It says "promote". How? The gov't makes sure our food, drugs, cars, appliances, etc. are safe, but it doesn't tell us which ones to purchase or when to buy them. The gov't works to find cures for our ills, but only mandates inoculations against infectious diseases (rule of law: no one has the right to infect someone else). The gov't establishes a minimum wage so that all workers actually make a living, but doesn't regulate other rates of pay in the private workplace.

So, jondo, after that long-winded speech, what is the answer to your question? Oh, that's right; THERE IS NO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT EDUCATION REQUIREMENT! This entire discussion has been about the federal gov't. As for State Gov't mandated education, see the comments by Lyris.

jondo
jondo wrote: "Why require everyone to get an education?"

I assume that's a reference to my comment that the government's role is not to tell people how to live (which it isn't; its role is to make it possible for the people to live better, freer lives). The Preamble to the Constitution reads (with interpretations added by me):

We the people (not the gov't), in order to form a more perfect union (a Federal Republic), establish justice (rule of law), insure domestic tranquility (avoid civil war), provide for the common defence (national defense), promote the general welfare (see below), and secure the blessings of liberty (the right of self-determination) to ourselves and our posterity (from 1787 until the end of time), do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

So, what does "promote the general welfare" mean? It DOES NOT say "provide welfare"; it does not say that the gov't will create programs to provide unlimited services for its people. It says "promote". How? The gov't makes sure our food, drugs, cars, appliances, etc. are safe, but it doesn't tell us which ones to purchase or when to buy them. The gov't works to find cures for our ills, but only mandates inoculations against infectious diseases (rule of law: no one has the right to infect someone else). The gov't establishes a minimum wage so that all workers actually make a living, but doesn't regulate other rates of pay in the private workplace.

So, jondo, after that long-winded speech, what is the answer to your question? Oh, that's right; THERE IS NO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT EDUCATION REQUIREMENT! This entire discussion has been about the federal gov't. As for State Gov't mandated education, see the comments by Lyris.

Double Posting
Sorry again.

chicaree
You need to do more research about how Canada's UHC actually works. The government tells you what doctor to see. So if you have a possible brain tumor and your MRI facility has a 3-4 week waiting list, you CANNOT go to the MRI facility across town that can see you the next day. UHC is allegedly free, do you think the doctors and nurses work for free ?? The $ has to come from somewhere....

Regarding the people who demand drugs they see on T.V.. I find it hard to believe a doctor would prescribe meds for someone that doesn't need it, no matter how much that person demands. That would be a questionable doctor to me. But I see so many people today in our society that lack basic common sense. A bunch of "sheeople"!

John Kerry's plan sounds like UHC. The lucky taxpayer that has insurance gets to pay twice: First for their own insurance, then second with paying taxes for the gov't assisted health insurance for the withouts. What a plan !?!

Please realize that the government sticking their nose into our daily lives is NOT the
answer.

PUdel
Here's my research. My neighbor is Canadian but is married to an American. Her mother is aging and ready needs nursing home care. My friend wants to move her here but can't do it because of health care US health care costs So she has to leave her in Canada, she returned to Canada to move her into assisted care living and has
daily medical care needs. She came back from that visit totally blown away by what Canada offered. Her remark was my mom would be totally bankrupted and without care had she had to do it here.

Yes the Government is involved with your lives but It was surely welcome to that family.

When your turn comes what will your choices be?


chicaree - - on Choices
Certainly, no matter what the overall situation, there IS going to be someone who benefits.

Even in Cuba, the tourists are well-cared for, and have no complaints about the system there.

Even the state-run lottery has the occasional winner. Nevertheless, it's still a "sucker bet".


"When your turn comes what will your choices be?"

Will you even *have* a choice? Will the system be so entirely broken down until nursing homes are bureaucratically considered too expensive to maintain at taxpayer expense? Will it be like Social Security in the year 2030, where expectations are there every retired beneficiary will be supported by only 2 workers?

Irresponsible


Your health care is not a "right" it's a privilege if you are financially responsible to participate. That means you get a job, you save your money, you live your life and figure it out.

I don't want any American being responsible for someone else's health care, financially.

I want our government to keep its hands off of the market - let the market speak for itself through service, quality and price.

If you really want socialized medicine then move to those countries, believe me, no one here will miss you being gone.

In addition, you “Right Uptight” folks need to stop calling people who want change, Progressives – you sound foolhardy.

You do understand that progressive means to move forward; new ideas; progress toward greater goals, science, technology – development, growth, advancement, improvement, evolution, moving forward.

Please! You sound so stupid, ignorant, and un-evolved, like you don’t speak with the brain you were born with!

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=4880

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=941

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=4972

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=4363

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=5003



Try voting tonight? Stoessel should!
So convenient that the Vote area on this site doesn't work tonight --- once you put a check in the first box, you immediately "vote". So all potential voters record one check, for an overall poor result.

I suspect that some pony-tailed webgeek in a garbage-strewn cubicle has engaged in sabotge. Mr. Stoessel should watch his back!

p,s,: if Cuba has such a shite-hot health care system, then why aren't the vast majority of Mexican and other Central/south American elites flocking there for treatment?

Granted, US citizens can't go directly because of government restrictions, and Canadians and Brit have such a wonderful system that they can just stay home (except when Canadians cross the border here for surgery!), but the rest-of-world ought to be clamoring for "free", superb health care in cuba!!

Do they? Where are the stats?
Right?

Not your money
This is why so much irresponsible spending goes on in Washington - it's not their money - it's yours.

This is why entitlement programs - welfare, health "reform"(read socialist medicine) are irresponsible - it's not their money.

Anyone wanting to utilize the government for taking care of their lives is doing so at the cost of the rest of us who earn a living, pay taxes and contribute socially - we are being extorted from those who will not participate - and it should stop.

It's the same "feeling" when someone goes and rents a car - they don't care how they treat the car - it isn't their's so the value is lost on being responsible.
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