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Wednesday, August 29, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Another Bogus Report Card for U.S. Medical Care
by John Stossel
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


In May, the Commonwealth Fund issued its latest comparison of the U.S. medical system with five other wealthy nations' systems: Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and Great Britain.

Predictably, the study begins: "Despite having the most costly health system in the world, the United States consistently underperforms."

I was immediately suspicious, considering the loaded study by the World Health Organization seven years ago. (I wrote about it last week.)

My suspicion was justified. It turns out the new study is almost as biased as the WHO's. The authors write, "The U.S. is the only country in the study without universal health insurance coverage, partly accounting for its poor performance on access, equity, and health outcomes."

I see. America "underperforms" because we don't have enough government intervention.

But while the U.S. lost points for not having national health insurance, the authors added, "[I]f insured, patients in the U.S. have rapid access to specialized health care services."

That's an understatement. Insured Americans have almost immediate access to cutting-edge procedures performed by some of the best-trained doctors. It's why our outcomes for such diseases as prostate and breast cancer are markedly better than in Canada's and Britain's socialized systems. The Commonwealth Fund doesn't mention that.

The United States is the center of medical innovation for the world. When internists ranked the world's top 10 medical innovations, eight were developed thanks to American innovations. The Commonwealth Fund ignores all that and focuses almost exclusively on the problems of our uninsured population.

As I've noted previously, the problem of the 45 million uninsured is exaggerated. The statistics represent a snapshot, and many uninsured people are reinsured in less than a year. The same people are not uninsured year in and year out.

The Commonwealth Fund study divides "quality" into right (effective) care, safe care, coordinated care and patient-centered care. The U.S. placed fifth or sixth in the last three.

But where did the U.S. place in "right care"?

First.

"Right care" is the most important criterion because it includes things like how often women have mammograms and whether diabetics get proper treatment.

The Commonwealth Fund ranked the U.S. last in "equity": "Americans with below-average incomes were much more likely than their counterparts in other countries to report not visiting a physician when sick, not getting a recommended test, treatment or follow-up care ... because of costs."

But how much of that is due to the government's increasing the cost of care and insurance through mandates, a tax code that encourages reliance on expensive insurance and bureaucratic red tape?

The Commonwealth Fund's study has other problems. It was based on telephone interviews with patients and doctors. So it grades nations on people's perceptions without controlling for their expectations. Yet patients who live in a country with long waits for medical care and bureaucratic inefficiency may have low expectations.

More ridiculous is the arbitrary way the Commonwealth Fund assigns weight to each of its measures. The proportion of patients who say they got infected at a hospital counts about the same in the "quality" measure as the proportion of doctors who use automated computer systems to remind them to tell patients their test results. Those things aren't equal in my book.

The study's authors also consider having high administrative costs and spending the largest share of GDP on health care worse than having the highest share of patients who wait four months or more for surgery. This seems designed to make the U.S. look bad.

Finally, the study penalizes nations for having large numbers of patients who spent more than $1,000 on medical care out of pocket, as if third-party payment is somehow superior.

Michael Cannon, the Cato Institute's director of health policy studies, summed up what's wrong with the study: "The report does nothing more than reveal which nation does the worst job of satisfying the subjective preferences of the people who conducted this study."

Fans of the Canadian system should note that Canada ranked fifth out of six and did worse than the U.S. in many ways.

Are you listening, Michael Moore?

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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John understates the case
According to a recent report which, I believe, comes from The Lancet Oncology, the United States rates first in the world for cancer survival rates among both men and women. The story was reported in a few different British outlets because the report also placed Great Britain toward the BOTTOM of the list, despite its apparently wonderful system of UHC.

let's not forget our own Census bureau
Our own Census Bureau reported today that 15% of our citizens are without health insurance coverage. To say that America is worse off becuase of a lack of insurace is misleading. Of that 40 or so million, how many are college students or self-employed that choose not to get insurance? Also, to say that they don't have 'health insurance' is not the same as no access to health care, which is still free for everyone walking into an emergency room. John Edwards says that we need universal health insurance and a national effort to eliminate poverty. The fact that we have the hedgefund representing, trial lawyer talking about poverty aisde, we already have the latter. It is called the Great Society and the War on Poverty that was started 42 years ago. Strangely, the poverty rates are the same today as they were when the Great Society was started only now we actually have more people in poverty than in the '60s as measured in real numbers. Why should we believe that linking universal health insurance with a program that no one will admit has failed (while at the same admiting it has failed hence the need for the new effort) will end poverty? It won't. It will increase the ability of our government to screw up our lives.

Are you listening, Michael Moore?
Well, that's a silly question, isn't it?

The latest census report
for health insurance says that 47 million don't have insurance and that will be touted by all. What they don't say is that 43% of those are illegal aliens. This article waits to the last part of the article and then tries to disguise it.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/insurance/2007-08-28-uninsured_N.htm?csp=34


Why are they here?
If illegals are the fastest group of people with no health insurance and Mexico has this new great universal care system, then why are they here?

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-womexi164935437oct16,0,6421326.story

Because they know that regardless of money or insurance, they will treated in the ER even for non-emergency events.

Let's look at the numbers, realistically
From the recent census:

47 million without insurance.

45% are not U.S. Citizens (that should be enough on this issue, but let’s proceed) approximately 21.1 million people

47.0 million
- 21.1 million
___________
25.9 million

Now it doesn’t say if the 18-24 (26%) or 24 – 36 (26%) are illegals, but let’s take ½ of each percentage and be generous – another 12.22 million

25.9 million
- 12.22 million
______________
13.68 million

Finally, I’m guessing that of the 8% that earn over $75K, they aren’t illegals, especially since the politicians like to say how the minimum wage is affecting these illegals, so let’s take that percentage off, as well.

13.68 million
- 1.09 million
_____________
12.59 million

That means that approximate 12.59 million people are without insurance, many of whom probably choose NOT to have insurance, let’s be generous and say ½, that means only about 6 million out of the 300+ million don’t have insurance that we should be concerned with, 2% of the population.

Not a big issue.

Only if you think we should have socialized medicine and you should be paying for someone else who isn’t being responsible.

BTW
To whom is the responsibility of obtaining insurance?

The individual.

If you're a family without insurance then is it really wise that you're having children that you cannot afford?

No.

Since you made the choice to have children for which you cannot support you will have to go without.

That's how it works in a free society where each individual is given the PRIVILEGE of making his/her own personal choices for the life they want to make for themselves.

Entitlement programs simply delegate the irresponsible choices of another onto the contributing members of the society who did not wish the added financial burden.

If you made a choice you should have to live with the consequences - is this not what laws are about in our nation?

Yes.

Do the crime - do the time.

Make the choice - live the consequence.

A Silly Study
I have insurance and can easily afford doctor's visits, however I am part of the problem. I don't run to the doctor with evey ache and pain and sneeze. According to this survey, I am making health care worse in this country.

I'll believe...
...socialized medicine is superior when I see wealthy Americans going to Canada and Great Britain for their medical needs,instead of the other way around.

Nam65-66
"...socialized medicine is superior when I see wealthy Americans going to Canada and Great Britain for their medical needs,instead of the other way around."

Welcome aboard LOL they are going to Argentina, Germany, India and now I hear Mexico.... LOL

John
You are not mentioning the real problem. We pay FAR more than any other country in healthcare and get less for the money. It has not a damn thing to do with socialism but a hell of a lot with common sense and lowering taxes and costs

Waiting Time
on March 20 of this year I awoke with severe chest pain. We called 911, 8 minutes the paramedics arrived.In about 5 minutes we left for the hospital which is 8 miles away and I was wisked into emergency and treated and admitted and in thew morning had an angiogram.I was immeditely transfered to another hosp who specilized in cardiac and received a qrarduple bypass, time elapsed 48 hours. Did I have ins yes. But I was NOT asked for the ins information until after the emergency treatment and after the by-pass. That is spectacular medical care

Hal Donohue
Once again: the United States ranks FIRST IN THE WORLD for cancer survival rates for both men and women.

So how, exactly, is it that we get less for our health dollars?

FergusMacLennan
Walter Reed has one of THE cancer research centers. I myself am a prostate cancer survivor and patient there. Guess what the Administration is trying to close or downsize the programs. Shall I go on about how effective and efficient the programs are? Shall we talk about the military and VA healthcare providers? These are excellent examples.

But that too is a red herring this is about how much we pay for what we get. Some type of basic safety net in healthcare is simply much less expensive than what we have now

HalD
Can you ever make a post without lying? Since you are a Democrap I guess not.

The only Americans going to Mexico for treatment are those who THINK that some of these experimental treatments may work. It has NOTHING to do with financing. And if we are paying too much for healthcare it is because of of communist/socialist policies of the government that were initiated by the Dems and lawyer sharks that ARE the Dems.

Misdirection
It's not health care that the leftists want access to, it's the public treasury aka my wallet and yours. No physician or hospital can refuse critical care for financial reasons. No one who walks inta a doctor's office with a wad of cash will be turned away. Reading the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and wrightings of the founders, nowhere is the privilege of having someone else pay your medical bills.

Misdirection
It's not health care that the leftists want access to, it's the public treasury aka my wallet and yours. No physician or hospital can refuse critical care for financial reasons. No one who walks inta a doctor's office with a wad of cash will be turned away. Reading the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and wrightings of the founders, nowhere is the privilege of having someone else pay your medical bills.

Hyde Park soapbox orator
Excuse me but I am NOT drawn to investigate the base information on the Commonwealth Fund. I am blind to who they are and that element of PR is their responsibility not mine; but, for their evaluation nevertheless, I would want to know who are the fund's paymasters, how does it achieve cash flows to stay in operations, does the fund have political stance and bias, and whom are the principals on the organization masthead? Do ghosts like George Soros participate openly or threw strawmen fronts. Otherwise, in my opinion, the Commonwealth Fund is just a Hyde Park soapbox orator with a bigger soapbox.

Vic
Before his death, Steve McQueen sought treatment in Mexico. Reportedly, he went for apricot pit extract treatments for his cancer. Unfortunately, the treatments proved worthless.

Vic
Before his death, Steve McQueen sought treatment in Mexico. Reportedly, he went for apricot pit extract treatments for his cancer. Unfortunately, the treatments proved worthless.

Vic
Before his death, Steve McQueen sought treatment in Mexico. Reportedly, he went for apricot pit extract treatments for his cancer. Unfortunately, the treatments proved worthless.

Agggh!!!
The TH server gremlins got me!

HalD
"Walter Reed has one of THE cancer research centers. I myself am a prostate cancer survivor and patient there. Guess what the Administration is trying to close or downsize the programs. Shall I go on about how effective and efficient the programs are? Shall we talk about the military and VA healthcare providers? These are excellent examples."

You're actually making our point with your post. If you want a look at what nationalized health care would be like in this country, look to the VA. It's good for some, bad for others, and far too mediocre for almost everyone.

As for Walter Reed having one of "THE cancer research centers," do you mean one of the best? If you think that, then there is no helping you. Check out U.S. News and World Report's annual list of the nation's best hospitals. I don't remember Walter Reed on too many lists.

HalD
"Walter Reed has one of THE cancer research centers. I myself am a prostate cancer survivor and patient there. Guess what the Administration is trying to close or downsize the programs. Shall I go on about how effective and efficient the programs are? Shall we talk about the military and VA healthcare providers? These are excellent examples."

You're actually making our point with your post. If you want a look at what nationalized health care would be like in this country, look to the VA. It's good for some, bad for others, and far too mediocre for almost everyone.

As for Walter Reed having one of "THE cancer research centers," do you mean one of the best? If you think that, then there is no helping you. Check out U.S. News and World Report's annual list of the nation's best hospitals. I don't remember Walter Reed on too many lists.

Vic
"Can you ever make a post without lying? Since you are a Democrap I guess not."

Wait a minute I lie and I bet you still say you are straight???

"The only Americans going to Mexico for treatment are those who THINK that some of these experimental treatments may work. It has NOTHING to do with financing."
\
Not true there are several high end hospital open and opening. They provide excellent service at lower cost and I think but am not certain accept US health insutrance

"And if we are paying too much for healthcare it is because of of communist/socialist policies of the government that were initiated by the Dems and lawyer sharks that ARE the Dems."

Not true it is because we are grossly inefficient and wasteful

And another lie
The "administration" is shutting down Walter Reed. The Base Closing Commission is the one that recommended shutting down Walter Reed, just like they recommended shutting down Charleston Naval Base. I don’t try to evaluate why they decide what they do because it doesn’t make a lot of sense, but I know it’s a lot better than letting congress or any other politician do it.

Ransom
"You're actually making our point with your post. If you want a look at what nationalized health care would be like in this country, look to the VA. It's good for some, bad for others, and far too mediocre for almost everyone."

Really? You need to do research your info appears to be from tyhe 70s and 80s and we are talking basic healthcare.

"As for Walter Reed having one of "THE cancer research centers," do you mean one of the best? If you think that, then there is no helping you. Check out U.S. News and World Report's annual list of the nation's best hospitals. I don't remember Walter Reed on too many lists."

The military healthcare system is not considered

Vic
"The "administration" is shutting down Walter Reed. The Base Closing Commission is the one that recommended shutting down Walter Reed, just like they recommended shutting down Charleston Naval Base."

The administration is accelerating the closure which has until 2011 and as with everything else they touch it seems to be screwed up. Sadly, at issue are our military and their families. But I know you "shop" and wear a yellow ribbon.

"I don’t try to evaluate why they decide what they do because it doesn’t make a lot of sense, but I know it’s a lot better than letting congress or any other politician do it."

Well I know this surprises you I strongly disagree

a tad hypocritical

it is ironic that most of the same people who excoriate the gov't for its ineptitude--ala Katrina, the infrastructure, the war on terror, illegal immigration etc., etc.--are the ones clamoring to put it in charge of health care.


al
"it is ironic that most of the same people who excoriate the gov't for its ineptitude--ala Katrina, the infrastructure, the war on terror, illegal immigration etc., etc.--are the ones clamoring to put it in charge of health care."

Well we always wondered exactly how bad the country would be if the fundementalist conservatives ever got control of the government. Now we know and I hope it certainly never happens again

Govmt Monopoly Rationed Medicine
Who & what is the "Commonwealth Fund" anyway? Why are its "studies" considered relevant, true, & newsworthy? This has been a longstanding tactic of the pop media & the elitists who control it; anybody with a fax & a letterhead can send in a "press release," & if it fits the ordained agenda it gets printed.

The ordained agenda seems to be a sequel to Hillarycare, a new push for government monopoly healthcare. First Mikey Moore claims Cuba has a better "syste." than ours, LOL, (which almost killed Castro himself), then we have the UN thru WHO touting gvt monopoly healthcare.

The biggest problem w/ health insurance is the since-WWII legacy of government meddling that makes it almost unaffordable except as an employment benefit or a welfare program.

Like all other "studies" for drumming up support for gvt monopoly medicine, it focuses on direct payments by the individual patient, & ignores the fact that the costs are going to be paid one way or another, & they'll be much higher if gvt is involved. In socialized-med countries, they keep costs down & within budget by making patients wait until one of a limited supply of 'slots' becomes available. Treatment is rationed, by the clock & the queue. If some patients become terminal & even die while waiting, well, that reduced overall costs, doesn't it?

What does it say about the values of these mystery organizations that they prefer rationed medicine to pay-per-service?

45% illegals, 29% aged 18-24
Why should I provide health care for illegals and young healthy adults??????

Rob
"Quit being disengenuous. You mentioned Americans going to South America. The vast majority go for treatment and medicine that is not yet available in the U.S., mainly because the governement is to slow to approve new cures."

That I suspect was true but every indication I have is not now.

"You know, the same slow, bloated government that would run our socialized health care. You know the one, the government which has it's budget run by the most fiscally irresponsible organization in the country, Congress. The same Congress that would fund socialized health care. That government."

What we have now costs far more

"You judge quality of medical care, not by life expectancy. That has to do with many factors including lifestyle. A better indicator is survival rates with diseases like cancer. The U.S. is far ahead. No contest. The main reason. Peopel with a ned for immediate care do not have to get in line"

Really no lines? WOW try ands get in to see a top specialist. Quality of healthcare is judged by the health and longevity of a population. Next you will be telling me infant mortality rates do not count either? Simple fact is US healthcare is in trouble.

IF Insured?
A few years back I broke a bone in my wrist. I saw the triage nurse and while I was waiting and things were slow in the ER, so I mentioned to them that I'd be willing to go ahead and make my co-payment during the lull. They told me they were not allowed to discuss insurance or any payment until after the doctor was finished tending to my needs.

Bman1
"BTW, did you hear that Castro has endorsed Hillary and Obama. Thought you and Hal D would be happy about that."

Nah Castro is one of your guys. You know a controlled rather than open market like you pointed exists in healthcare and healthcare insurance

Bman1
that was helpful?

Rob
"And EVERYTHING counts. You can cherry pick to prove any point.
Don't get me wrong, our helthcare system is far from perfect and needs fixng. I'm saying government health care is not the cure. It is a convenient tool for politicians to make it seem they are making everyone happy."

I agree to an extent. But our healthcare is destroying our business base. The costs are overwhelming and the results simply not effective. My challenge to you is find an alternative system that works then. It sounds as if you are involved in healthcare in some way so you know. But FYI they are outsourcing highend healthcare to Mexico look out.

Rob
"Well, if Castro is one of "our guys" What is he doing backing your "guy and gal???". Must be the delrium from his illness."

Must be but far more likely one cheap shot deserves another? LOL

Anthony Thomas writes:
"I had to have a tooth extracted by a student dentist because I did not have the insurance to pay for it."

In Australia, this is the norm for all school children. I remember being bussed off with my classmates to the local Dental traing facility where we would spend half a day letting some first year dentist student drill around in your mouth trying to find something to fill.

It is no better with socialized healthcare.
I have lived it.

Tony -- Between Jobs
AT: ''Stossel cannot continue to refute every study.''

I don't see why not, so long as he continues to choose studies financed and produced by socialists with axes to grind.

''Key words "if insured". What if someone is not insured? I'm insured now, but a couple of years ago while looking for a job, I did not have coverage.''

You demonstrate the very statistics Stossel is talking about. Your lack of insurance was TEMPORARY. And it didn't even need to be temporary, had you purchased the "COBRA" insurance from your previous job.

''What if I had gotten sick?''

You would have gone to the hospital and you would been treated.

Sure, they'd much rather you have some kind of an ability to pay. Providing free medical care don't pay the bills. But they won't turn you away just because you're "between insurance companies."

And if they give you any gruff, just change your name to Antonio Tomás, and you'll get priority treatment! ;-)

Anthony Thomas
When I was about 10 years ago I extracted a tooth myself because health Insurance had not been invented yet. BFD

When I was about 10 years ago
should be "When I was about 10 years old"

HalD
Now that we know where these bogus numbers are coming from how about Hal? Do you want the government to basically nationalize health care so we can give it to the illegals and people who really don’t feel like paying for it. That in effect creates another inefficient socialist program in this country to answer the needs of a few people that may need it and a lot of people who either should not be here or who don’t want it.

And BTW, we know how the country was ran when the so called conservative ran it. From 1776 until 1933 when the greatest communist of them all took over. That paragon of socialism, that man who out-Lenined Lenin. Who you ask,? Why the Democrats greatest hero, Franklin “I never met a communist I didn’t like” Roosevelt.

Bman1
My uncle's wife was here, but still a citizen of England. She got cancer, had no insurance, and decided to go back to England for treatment. She died 6 months later waiting for her FIRST appointment. Some utopia. I think my uncle wished they had found a way to pay for it here. This is a great example of "you get what you pay for."

I'll agree with Hal D that our system is not perfect, but no system is. However, anyone with a brain knows that the US, by far, has the best healthcare system in the world. As far as expense, there isn't even an argument anymore that government involvement brings elevated costs and mediocrity to everything it touches. Let's not destroy the best healthcare system in the world to accomodate the irresponsible in our society.

Anthony Thomas
You wondered in your post what you would have done had you gotten sick while uninsured. I dont know? What would you have done if your mortgage was due and you could not pay it? What would you have done if you needed food but had no money?

Certainly food and shelter are as necessary for survival as healthcare; more so in fact. My point is that everyone has needs and sometimes there are people who are unable to meet those needs. If you have no family or friends to help you, there are already government programs you can utilize. There are food stamps and free clinics and government housing. Forget for the moment that all these programs have been miserable overpriced failures. They exist.

Nobody can deny that we have serious healthcare issues in this nation. But the worst thing we could possibly do would be to turn the system over to the government. That would be like throwing a pale of gasoline on a fire to put it out.

Fundementalist (sic) conservative?
What in the world is a fundamentalist conservative? One who belives in the basic tenets of conservation? Or--are you referring to fundamentalist Christian conservatives? Then you would be meaning one who follows THE teachings of the Bible. (As if there is such a thing as a nonfundamentalist Christian. A Christian, by definition, follows Biblical teachings. That seems to deny the Christianity of many who are "Christian in name only," doesn't it?)

I suppose in your world FEMA suddenly became "fundamentalist conservative" because George W. Bush is the President? Seems to me there has been a problem with government bureaucracy through all sorts of administrations regardless of the President's "fundamental" leanings.

socialism vs. fascism
The only reason why socialized medicine looks so good to some in this country is because its being compared to what we have now, which is a fascist healthcare system. A legitimately free-market healthcare system would blow them both out of the water.

Moonkeeper
Agreed

RE: Hal Donahue
"Not true it is because we are grossly inefficient and wasteful"

Uh huh. And you actually believe communism is efficient and economical?

Well, let's see. Let's take a look at how our government is doing in other areas:

Public education: 35% of the money spent on public education actually goes to administrative costs. This compares with only 15% the money spent on private education going to administrative costs.

US Postal Service: The USPS was made a government mandated monopoly (no one else is allowed to deliver 1st Class mail) in the 1870s because, according to congressional testimony, there is no way they would be able to compete with private mail carriers.

Amtrak: Hasn't made a profit since the government took it over in 1973.

Social Security: The ROI in our SS system is about 1/7th what the ROI in the average American 401k plan is.

Tell me, can you come up with JUST ONE example that shows communism more efficient and economical than the private market?

RE: Hal Donahue
"Not true it is because we are grossly inefficient and wasteful"

Uh huh. And you actually believe communism is efficient and economical?

Well, let's see. Let's take a look at how our government is doing in other areas:

Public education: 35% of the money spent on public education actually goes to administrative costs. This compares with only 15% the money spent on private education going to administrative costs.

US Postal Service: The USPS was made a government mandated monopoly (no one else is allowed to deliver 1st Class mail) in the 1870s because, according to congressional testimony, there is no way they would be able to compete with private mail carriers.

Amtrak: Hasn't made a profit since the government took it over in 1973.

Social Security: The ROI in our SS system is about 1/7th what the ROI in the average American 401k plan is.

Tell me, can you come up with JUST ONE example that shows communism more efficient and economical than the private market?

Excellent points
By Vic on how many of the "uninsured" are here illegally and for pointing out that gov't regs and Democrat trial lawyers are the primary causes of "waste" and "inefficiency" in health care.

By scooternyc on other "uninsureds" who are that way by choice and who ARE NOT LACKING HEALTH CARE because of it.

By James for questioning the funding and motivation of the Commonweath Fund.

By Moonbat Exterminator on how this is just another scam by the left to get the gov'ts sticky fingers into our pockets.

By al on how the same libs who constantly complain about the incompetence of government expect us to turn our health care over to them.

By numerous posters who point out all of the citizens of countries with allegedly superior health care coming to the US to literally saves their own @$$e$.

And of course I can't leave out Hal D, who once again shows his insistence that only a government run by a bunch of liberal socialists is capable of doing anything right (but claims he is not a liberal).

Socialized medicine vs Fascism
I see that we still have a basic misunderstanding of socialism and fascism. Fascism was nothing more than Benito Mussolini’s name for his brand of socialism. He didn’t want to be called a socialist because he and Hitler were supposed to be fighting the communists.

If you look at what Hillary wanted to do back during her first administration you will see what a fascist health care system was.

http://www.mises.org/story/524

SFASU7392
You have to excuse HalD. He is a "professional Democrat" therefore he is genetically predisposed to lie every time he opens his mouth.

Some Food for Thought
1st complaint: Too many uninsured people

By most accounts we have somewhere between 40 and 45 million uninsured people in this country. A large percentage of this number are of an age group where they may choose not to have insurance and another percentage are not even citizens of this country. But hey these little facts don't matter to the "universal healthcare" crowd, so let's stick with the 40 to 45 million. That's roughly about 15% of our population.

Why are we considering changing destorying a system that by all accounts works for 85% (or more) of the population simply to "help" the other 15% (many of whom don't carry insurance by choice)?

2nd Complaint: Healthcare is too expensive. Insurance is not effective.

Yes I'll agree. The cost of healthcare in this country goes up every year. The question is why. The why to me seems pretty clear. The cost of healthcare goes up because of increased influence from the insurance companies and to a lesser degree the government. The solution is to remove the insurance companies and the government from the healthcare business and turn it back over the free market where it belongs.

For those who say "universal healthcare" is the answer we need, stop and think a moment. You want to take the decisions about your healthcare and your family's healthcare and place those decisions in the government's hands (who will use the law to allow you no choice in the matter). You want a system where medical services are rationed out based on a budget and where your personal choice is outlawed.

If you honestly believe that is the system you want, then I guess there's not much hope for you. Many people would rather be slaves to the government than to have to be bothered with their freedom and the responiblity for it.

Then again that's all "universal healthcare" really is. Simple and total government enslavement of the people.

jworley
Well said.

We need Tort Reform. Less Government & red tape. Competitive markets for those who choose to purchase insurance. Control of the illegal alien problem. Free Markets. and Coverage for catastrophic illness only...I will state again my analogy. We do not purchase insurance for routine maintenance on our automobiles, why should we do so for routine health care?

Personal responsibility. Not more government interference in our freedom to make choices for ourselves...even if some of those choices are poor ones. UHC = mediocrity

According to the study,
equality in access is more important than quality of care.

But what they do not mention is that everyone in this country can receive care even if they do not have insurance.

So without 100% insurance coverage the U.S. has; high quality care, speedy care (as compared to places like Canada), and guaranteed treatment for every one.

All socialized health care will do is slow down the speed with which care is given and add a layer of bureaucratic red tape which will hinder our ability to get quality care.

Even with insurance I can't just walk in to a Dr's office and ask for care. I have to have pick a Physician and go to him or her. If I have a issue which he or she can't treat they have to refer me to a specialist.

I recently had surgery on my hand to remove 4 plates and 8 screws that had been put in back in 1996 after an unlicensed drunk driver hit me. The hardware was causing problems and limiting my ability to perform repetitive tasks like typing. It took me 60 days from the time I brought the issue up to my Dr, till I had the hardware removed. In Canada it would have taken much longer.

I would have had my surgery in 30 days but I requested a later surgery date because I was moving about a week after the first surgery date was scheduled and I didn't want to be in recovery mode with one hand not useful in the middle of a move.

jworley writes:
Some Food for Thought
****
You are correct on both points.

If you pay close attention those who propose Socialized Heath Care (or Universal Health Care so that the whole socialized word is not used) also tend to be opposed to changing legislation so that more people to qualify for Health Savings Accounts (HSA's).

So let me get this straight...
I get the feeling from some of the supporters of UHC that you think it is ok to go to your neighbors house and knock on the door and ask them for some cash to pay for YOUR surgery, do I have that right? Medical care is so expensive because of insurance. Insurance is the problem, we need less of it. Major medical only. My car insurance does not include maintenance check ups for my car, oil changes, new tires, etc. I work with people who go to the doctor when ever they sneeze wrong, because hey it only cost them a $20.00 co-pay. I think sometimes they just want the afternoon off. I have no desire to give the goverment that kind of control over my life. I go out of my way to stay healthy and take care of myself, I seldom see my doctor, except for yearly check ups. Most people medical problems are self inflicted, they only become conerned about their health when something goes wrong.

Insurance and Taxes
I have seen numerous politicians, including Bush, proposing an income tax deduction for health insurance expenses. LOL, how soon we forget. How many people remember that up until 1986 you could deduct all health care expenses, including insurance, and it did not have the 7.5% floor that we currently have. Last year was the first year in my life that I was able to meet that 7.5% floor and that was because I had a heart attack and my wife has had high medical bills for a while. I haven’t seen any of you libtards screaming for restoration of that deduction. Why is that? Could it be because that may be a TAX CUT and liberal Dems are opposed to ANYTHING that may reduce taxes?

beowulfe
"Uh huh. And you actually believe communism is efficient and economical?"

no one is talking about communism


wiseone
"And of course I can't leave out Hal D, who once again shows his insistence that only a government run by a bunch of liberal socialists is capable of doing anything right (but claims he is not a liberal)."

There you go again LOL. Can't you use words other than buzz words?

Infant mortality rates
The truth is that most other countries do not include mortality rates from preemies. We do and our rates appear to be much higher. Anthony Thomas had to go to a student dentist for an extraction. What would you have done, Anthony, if that service was not available? The point is that, if you value something highly enough, you will find a way to pay for it. If you do not want a root canal because of the price, have the tooth pulled (it is much cheaper). It all comes down to your values. Why should I pay for your dental treatment with my taxes? BTW, dental insurance is usually a terrible deal; I don't carry it because of the high deductibles and low yearly maximums.

SFASU7392
"Yeah, I know. In fact, I am the one who showed just what he was, and oh did he get p!ssed about it."

If you recall I told you to google me. If I was concerned I would have made up a name to hide behind like you not that that isn't ok

HalD
If you Democrats believed in Truth in Advertizing you would rename the Party to The Communist Party of America. The Democrat Party platform is communism. Communism is socialism with the loss of private property. That is the Democrats.

Insurance Not Main Problem
A number of posters have opined that insurance is the major problem.

Well, it is A problem, but it's far from the major one.

The problem with health insurance is that it's one of very few insurances that people do NOT directly purchase. So most of you have NO idea what the costs really are, or when they go up, or why. All you know is when your co-pay goes up from $20 to $25.

The reason health insurance is not directly paid for is that it became a "benefit" that employers offered to get skilled employees to come to work for them. This was their option during a time when laws ostensibly to prevent inflation made it illegal to increase wages. So, instead of offering more money, employers offered more bennies.

Combine this with health insurance being tax deductible as a business expense to the employer, but never to the employee (unless the employee pays for it directly, and then only the portion more than 7% of his AGI), and we have a situation where the CONSUMER of a service is SHIELDED from the COST of that service.

That, my friends, is a prescription for disaster.


mrs Paddy/jworley
"mrs Paddy writes: Wednesday, August, 29, 2007 11:56 AM
jworley
Well said.

We need Tort Reform. Less Government & red tape. Competitive markets for those who choose to purchase insurance. Control of the illegal alien problem. Free Markets. and Coverage for catastrophic illness only...I will state again my analogy. We do not purchase insurance for routine maintenance on our automobiles, why should we do so for routine health care?

Personal responsibility. Not more government interference in our freedom to make choices for ourselves...even if some of those choices are poor ones. UHC = mediocrity "

I just do not understand your hard work to make this country like that when you can get it right now in almost every third world country?

Insurance not Main Problem, cont.
You know, this 2000 character limit that forces us to split postings into pieces is a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.

Anyway -- continued from previous --

A very easy, immediate, no-brainer solution to this would be to change the law such that health insurance is no longer a hidden cost. Companies can still buy insurance for their employees to take advantage of quantity discounts, but only after deducting from the employee's salary. They can also offer every available health insurance, instead of just the usual two or three options. Essentially, what you get is the employee buys his own insurance and pays for it directly with his own money. His employer is just an "agent".

Or, if he'd rather keep the money, he can opt out entirely.

This will create more competition in the insurance industry, and remove the shield between the consumer and provider. If an insurance company raises their rates, people will shop around for better rates. A lot of people would opt for "disaster insurance", i.e., large deductibles where the insured is responsible for the first $5,000 or something. No more $20 co-pay -- if you have a sniffle and you want to see the doctor, it had better be worth the $75 or whatever he's going to charge. Not many people have sniffles worth $75.

Or, if you want to pay extra for the insurance in order to keep that $20 co-pay -- and I can see a lot of families with children opting for this, because small kids can get sick a lot -- well, go ahead and pay the extra insurance.

But the point is to remove that shield between the consumer and the provider. Then the market can work.

Bring it!
I smoke and drink all the time and I also take lots of other risks.
Would socialized medicine be in my best interest? Will this new nanny state try to control my behavior? Will I be constantly harassed and punished by this national system? Are there any guarantees that those with minority viewpoints will not be controlled? I do like the idea that someone else will be paying for my little situations down the road. Thanking you in advance.

Rich from Paso
Going to the ER is not free. Somebody has to pay. You will get a bill but may choose to not pay it. Any unpaid bills are eaten by the hospital that still has to pay the nurses, registration clerk, janitor, ER doc, power company, medical supply co, etc. They pass that cost along to those of us with insurance by charging $5 for an aspirin. Our premiums go up and they people who always get the screw job get it once again. So, remember kids, don't use the word "Free" around Uncle CVN65 because I will set you straight.

Bring it!
I love to smoke and drink.
Would socialized medicine be in my best interest? Will this new nanny state try to control my behavior? Will I be constantly harassed and punished by this national system? Are there any guarantees that those with minority viewpoints will not be controlled? I do like the idea that someone else will be paying for my little situations down the road. Thanking you in advance.

Vic
"If you Democrats believed in Truth in Advertizing you would rename the Party to The Communist Party of America. The Democrat Party platform is communism. Communism is socialism with the loss of private property. That is the Democrats."

You silly person I hope you understand how out to lunch you are but you probably to not. Simple fact is that we are stronger if we work together and if we invest in our human capital. That is how we became a world power and the only way we will stay that one. If you want to go biblical: yes you are your brother's keeper.

On bureaucracy-run health care
My family makes do on Tricare. You have NO IDEA what you are asking for if you think you want bureaucrats managing your health care.

Hal says:
"I just do not understand your hard work to make this country like that when you can get it right now in almost every third world country?"
======================
Are you saying by this rather incoherent retort that you think third world countries have better medical care?!

Sheesh. Try some factual information, why don't you?

I normally don't respond to your posts, but, this is just pure bunk. Perhaps your agenda is more important to you than making reasonable statements, but give us all a break and quit stirring the pot with disinformation.

Talli2long
Hi! We call it Try-to-get-care in our house.

Hal
One more thing...don't confuse us with "I am my brother's keeper" as you obviously are uninformed as to the circumstances behind this oft-used and oft-misunderstood "quotation" from the Bible. It doesn't apply here.

I've got the blues for the
50s;
and I miss the early sixties too.
I've got the blues for the 50s;
and I miss the early 60s too.
break out your crinoline mama
'cause I want to ally-oop.

Why am I singing Jim Stafford you ask?

because in the 50s subversive organizations like the communists would have to go down and register as a subversive. That means HalD would have to register. LOL

In response to Hal
"That is how we became a world power and the only way we will stay that one"

Interestingly, socialism was not much in evidence in the U.S. throughout the period in which we became a world power. It is only now, flush with the wealth their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents built through free-enterprise, that people have the comfort and leisure and safety to tinker with the system.

Anthony Thomas
Dental insurance? You've gotta be kidding!

Gosh, I don't have dental insurance, either, and I just had to pay $1200 for a crown on a fractured tooth. I never thought to blame George Bush or the Republicans for it. Thanks for the tip.

A couple of years from now I'll be forced to enroll in Medicare (Universal Health Care for the Elderly). Will they (you) pay for my dental care?

mrs Paddy
No actually I am saying the country you want the US to become already exists in almost every third world nation. Think about it every person for themselves; poor healthcare, poor technology, poor transportation... shall I go on? You forget this country was built by us working together with the exception of the horrendous slave culture of the south that had to be settled by blood. Investment in people, technology and business made us great. The question to my mind is how we accomplish that. The nonsense spewed here is just that and is an express highway to the third world.

Health Care Statistics
So now we learn that some 40 to 45 million in the US don't have health insurance. Are there any posters out there who could accurately tell me what percentage of the above numbers are children?

Hal says
No actually I am saying the country you want the US to become already exists in almost every third world nation.

Then why in the 4 corners of h*ll is everyone of those people in those 3rd world countries trying to get here?

Tallil2long
"Interestingly, socialism was not much in evidence in the U.S. throughout the period in which we became a world power. It is only now, flush with the wealth their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents built through free-enterprise, that people have the comfort and leisure and safety to tinker with the system."

No one is talking socialism please stop with your silly buzz words next you will be mumbling amnesty LOL


Re. My Previous Post
To be a little more specific: I define "children" as those who are 18 years and younger. Thanks, folks.

Hal
You are comparing apples to kumquats. You have to look at the governments of third world countries. They are not "free" nor are they afforded the opportunities for free enterprise that we have here.

I'm not advocating a regression to a third-world nation. Nor do I accept your characterization that my posts say, imply or advocate that.

I am a Conservative. What do I want to conserve? you ask? I wish to conserve our founding fathers' vision of LIMITED GOVERNMENT, FREEDOM and LIBERTY, AND...most important...the right to OWN PROPERTY without fear the government will usurp our wealth and property...

Today we are already on the slippery slope of Socialism with MANY of the FAILED programs advocated by the Left. Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, etc. etc. etc. We also are having our property rights usurped in the name of Environmentalism, Eminent Domain and TAXES.

I believe that the government is best that governs Least.

Tallil2long
"Interestingly, socialism was not much in evidence in the U.S. throughout the period in which we became a world power. It is only now, flush with the wealth their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents built through free-enterprise, that people have the comfort and leisure and safety to tinker with the system."

That time frame goes back to the 20's and oh my falls right into the great depression, WWII and then the Hightax post war build up of education, highways, healthcare shall I go on? What "conservatism" led by Ronnie discovered was to use the resources our parents, grandparents and great grandparents built and then not adequately build or replace them. The whole movement essentially has been a parasite on the people sold as a free lunch. Oh taxes were high back then too


Hal
You are confusing "working together" through Private enterprise with "working together" under government control. Sorry. I want Private Enterprise...more commonly called capitalism.

In response to Hal
"No one is talking socialism "

Good! Then you are firmly against any socialized medical system.

Plus
I have seen considerable numbers of Canadian doctors who set up shop here due to the headaches they face from Canada's federal and provincial governments; though some would say that HMO's/PPO's in US also give quite a few headaches, I'm sure that this facor has been weighed in their decision to move south.

And I have NOT seen any US doctors move north!

HalD doesn't know the
difference between socilaism, communism, and capitalism. That's right he was educated in a federal government school.

Vic
"Hal says
No actually I am saying the country you want the US to become already exists in almost every third world nation.

Then why in the 4 corners of h*ll is everyone of those people in those 3rd world countries trying to get here?"

Because the country you advocate does not work well

In response to Hal
"That time frame goes back to the 20's and oh my falls right into the great depression, WWII and then the Hightax post war build up of education, highways, healthcare shall I go on? What "conservatism" led by Ronnie discovered was to use the resources our parents, grandparents and great grandparents built and then not adequately build or replace them"

Oh, so you ARE talking about socialism. Then why deny it?

Actually
Hal Donahue writes:

No one is talking socialism please stop with your silly buzz words next you will be mumbling amnesty LOL

Actually, we all are, but we are not sure what you are talking about?

mrs Paddy
"You are confusing "working together" through Private enterprise with "working together" under government control. Sorry. I want Private Enterprise...more commonly called capitalism."

We agree then so do I. The only way that can happen is when the government keeps the playing field level. Look it did not and failed to prosecute companies for hiring illegal aliens to compete other companies had to also or go out of business. Look at the mess that happened

mrs Paddy
Yet you advocate tort reform? So let me get this straight, just so I understand. Artificial caps and denied access to the legal system is conservative, but artificial price-controls and denied access to the medical system is another crazy liberal idea. Does that about sum it all up?

I know you don't really believe that, it's just so easy to bash lawyers as long as we can assume that all trial lawyers are John Edwards loving liberal democrats. AMIRITE?

Vic
"HalD doesn't know the
difference between socilaism, communism, and capitalism. That's right he was educated in a federal government school. "

Nope all private schools here but my kids went to public schools for the most part

Tallil2long
"Good! Then you are firmly against any socialized medical system."

Definitely not my first choice to solve the healthcare crisis

To mrs Paddy
I'd LOVE to see the proponents of nationalized health care compelled to deal with the Tricare system for a few years.
They'd be the very ones shrieking about delays and inefficiency and lack of choice. Still, the only way they'll try out such a system is if they get to inflict it on everyone else at the same time.

almost heaven
I don't know that I am advocating artificial caps and denied access exactly. I just think that the legal system in our nation is horribly abused. Everybody wants a perfect outcome.

Why are frivolous law suits not thrown out of court? I think Loser Pays and holding Lawyers accountable for "malpractice" would be a good start.

There is something fishy about the vast number of lawyers we have in this country...

Times have changed, and we need tort reform of some sort. I don't think all lawyers are like John Edwards, but there are certainly a preponderance of ambulance chasers and others that troll for business...how could there not be when you look at the statistics?

almost
Artificial caps and denied access to the legal system .
====
It doesn't need to be caps. Many western countries have a loser pays system that seems to discourage frivolous lawsuits.

Imagine if the lawyer had to pay for the court cost of the winner. Maybe he would not treat every person walking through the door as a lottery ticket.

HalD doesn't know the
Pardon me, I had you pegged for a ring knocker from the AF academy.

Tallil2long
LOL. I see your point. The only thing is, I am afraid you are right, which isn't funny.

We're due to retire in about a year, and I'm worried that our plans will be submarined by more socialized programs, be it health care or some other "grand-society" idea.

Polly
When the time comes for you to be "forced" into Medicare, why don't you just refuse Medicare, out of principle? Just say no, as Nancy Reagan used to teach us. Last week we got my husband's most recent hospital bill. Medicare paid $45,000 of a $46,492 charge, referring the balance to Blue Cross. I'm sure you would be delighted to cover the $45,000 out-of-pocket, especially when you have multiple hospitalizations per year and when this particular bill is only one of thirty or forty resulting from the same hospitalization. Let us know what you decide.

Low Cost Health Care

We have good doctors and research people. Our doctors spend a small fortune on Liability insurance, and it doesn't stop there. They run all kinds of ridiculous tests they reasonably know you don't need just to have a cover from possible law suits and to keep their insurance or not have it quite so expensive.

There is one big problem with America's health care system. "LAWYERS". Get the practice of health the HHLL away from the lawyers, and we will/could have the very best and finest in the world.

Making the FDA responsible to the public and NOT to the pharmaceutical companies would also go along way towards improving our health and lowering costs. They are both slimy creatures lying about what is good for us and bad for us.


Health Care Reality


We have good doctors and research people. Our doctors spend a small fortune on Liability insurance, and it doesn't stop there. They run all kinds of ridiculous tests they reasonably know you don't need just to have a cover from possible law suits and to keep their insurance or not have it quite so expensive.

There is one big problem with America's health care system. "LAWYERS". Get the practice of health the HHLL away from the lawyers, and we will/could have the very best and finest in the world.

Making the FDA responsible to the public and NOT to the pharmaceutical companies would also go along way towards improving our health and lowering costs. They are both slimy creatures lying about what is good for us and bad for us.


The Health Care Reality

We have good doctors and research people. Our doctors spend a small fortune on Liability insurance, and it doesn't stop there. They run all kinds of ridiculous tests they reasonably know you don't need just to have a cover from possible law suits and to keep their insurance or not have it quite so expensive.

There is one big problem with America's health care system. "LAWYERS". Get the practice of health the HHLL away from the lawyers, and we will/could have the very best and finest in the world.

Making the FDA responsible to the public and NOT to the pharmaceutical companies would also go along way towards improving our health and lowering costs. They are both slimy creatures lying about what is good for us and bad for us.


A little story, and a question
Early this month, while I was Stateside on leave, my wife passed out while we were watching "Bourne Ultimatum". She was taken by ambulance to Scott and White hospital in Temple, Tx.
They were concerned that the episode might be related to the brain.
Michelle received a CAT scan *that same day*.

Question for researchers:
How long would my wife have waited for a CAT scan in Canada's nonalized health-care system?

(pity AudiR10 is not here; she's Canadian and has some strong opinions on the execrable state of health care up there; she probably could answer the question off-hand)

Hal
Will your Government controlled Health care make me change my lifestyle?

Rich/El Paso
Maybe you have free lunch in El Paso but out here in the rest of the world it doesn't exist. First, that free medical care that the uninsured guy can get just by walking into the emergency room (as our President recommends) is charged to other people who DO have insurance. Which is why, if you send for an itemized hospital bill, you will see nursing care billed for $3000 a day and an aspirin billed for $23. Second, don't be so sure that the "college student" who is "uninsured" cannot come to grief. I know a young woman who developed cancer while she was still in school. After 18 months that included 12 major surgeries, chemotherapy, and radiation, not to mention multiple hospitalizations, she nevertheless had to have a leg amputated and all the rehab that followed that. If you are suggesting that a healthy young person can't suddenly incur staggering medical costs, you are very wrong. Should she have just "gone to the emergency room" and laughed off the bills?

mrs Paddy
"I am a Conservative. What do I want to conserve? you ask? I wish to conserve our founding fathers' vision of LIMITED GOVERNMENT, FREEDOM and LIBERTY, AND...most important...the right to OWN PROPERTY without fear the government will usurp our wealth and property..."

Limited government means what? Would you stay out of our bedrooms?

"Today we are already on the slippery slope of Socialism with MANY of the FAILED programs advocated by the Left. Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, etc. etc. etc."

The people voted them in and were willing to pay for them. I have not seen them stopped by conservatives either. Look at government growth under Reagan and Bush II. Many should be stopped or completely revamped.

"We also are having our property rights usurped in the name of Environmentalism, Eminent Domain and TAXES."

Here you are right and wrong. Coming from a coal area where companies raped the land and the people and took the profits I feel they were given an unfair subsidy i.e. they did not pay for destroying my streams or land

"I believe that the government is best that governs Least." AMEN

HalD
You never did answer the question earlier. Are you in favor of the tax payer paying for healthcare for illegal aliens and rich people who could have afforded it anyway?

Lilly
You are missing the big picture here.

You said: I'm sure you would be delighted to cover the $45,000 out-of-pocket.

What you are missing is that we ARE paying for the $45,000 out of pocket. Currently I do that every quarter since I no longer have a "regular income" (and I still have to pay taxes".

Tallil2long
hmmm how about the german and french systems. How about finding another system?


In response to SFASU7392
lilly waiting for VA or Tricare is a delightful picture. She would learn much about reality from such experiences.

Vic
"You never did answer the question earlier. Are you in favor of the tax payer paying for healthcare for illegal aliens and rich people who could have afforded it anyway?"

What makes the most sense? A long time ago the AF was buying small passenger planes. A general went thru one looked around and said we will save money! Then he ordered the toilets taken out of the aircraft. When the AF got the bill ir was well over 20,000 US more because of the mod to remove toilets. What is the most efficient means to accomplish the task. Do you have a problem with that approach

Actually
There's quite a bit of "medical tourism" traffic from the US into Mexico:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/20051016-9999-mz1b16mexico.html

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/dthealth2.html

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/072807dninthospitals.36608c1.html

The reason is not that care in the US is substandard, but that government regulation makes our insurance relatively expensive -- compared to the alternative of paying out of pocket in Mexico -- and the costs of individual procedures relatively high (again, compared to paying for such procedures in the US).

The Mexican medical market is less regulated than ours. For a lot of people, it makes better financial sense to drop, or change the basis of, health care insurance carried for US medical care, and have routine visits and procedures in Mexico. Naturally, most of these people are located in California and Texas, which border parts of Mexico that are developed enough to cater to our modern expectations of medical care.

The linked articles focus on Americans with Latino names, but I know white and black "Yanqui" Americans who get things done in Mexico, because it's cheap and safe. Why pay $4800 a year for insurance so that you can get maybe $800 worth of routine care in a year, when you could just pay $400 out of your pocket for the same care in Mexico?

VIC
Another question to you want to wait bleeding in the ER while your wife goes home to get your passport to prove you are a citizen? If they give you care and you are an illegal they won't get paid sop the have to wait

In response to Hal
Dunno. Wonder if France's health care system is one of the causes for their stagnant economy? Wonder if German's health care system succeeds because so many of German's Turkish workers don't get it?

dyerje
Argentina is the place for plastic surgery

To Hal
For instance, in order to get aging Turks out of Germany before their health care costs came due, that nation in desperation offered $250,000 per head for them to leave.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003635043_germanturks25.html

Is that what you see for America? Tax Mexican workers to support us, then try to shuffle them off back home before they become a burden?

Tallil2long
"Dunno. Wonder if France's health care system is one of the causes for their stagnant economy? Wonder if German's health care system succeeds because so many of German's Turkish workers don't get it?"

Don't the Germans? I know I used it quite heavily around 80 and I could hardly pay at all

HaldD
You little parable makes absolutely no sense but I will respond anyway.

If criminals were sneaking over the fence onto the AF base and installing the toilets that it was costing the AF to remove, yes I would have a problem with it.

And also, your little analagy about the ER is closer than you think. I had to sit on a bench while having a heart attack and wait for the admittance clerk to finish with an indigent who was likely an illegal to finish before I could get service. I also have a problem with that as it could have killed me.

SO here's the rub, since very few American citizens who want health insurance do not have it we should turn it over to the government because you think that it correct. It is better for 95% to suffer so that 5% can gain.

Second response to Hal
What about emulating France's health care system? Well, how about:

"For years, health care workers had been warning of the potential results of policies that have led to shortages of staff, lack of training and equipment, hospital closures and more expensive health care for the public."
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/sep2003/fran-s09.shtml

or maybe:

"Tiel says the cost of France's socialized health care is growing faster than its economy. Workers pay about fifty percent of their paycheck each month into healthcare, retirement and unemployment and more companies are outsourcing jobs to avoid those costs. Quality of care also suffers in France, says Teil, because hospitals and doctors resist government requirements to report their success and failures."
http://www.kcpw.org/article/4216





Stossel
Does anybody listen to Stossel anymore? His claims have been debunked so many times, I'm surprised that he hasn't had to change professions (maybe as a fiction writer for the CATO Institute?).

Hal
Argentina is the place for CHEAP plastic surgery. The wealthy go to Miami, NYC and Beverly Hills or even to France, but not SA. Having performed facial cosmetic surgery I can tell you that all of the big names are in the US and Europe. Anyone making a name for themselves elsewhere is not going to be cheap.

Health Care
Health insurance companies make money by:
(1) refusing to cover the chronically ill
(2) denying care to current policyholders

Industry figure, cited by politicians on the right (Newt Gingrich) and the left (Paul Krugman): 10% of American Citizens make up 90% of health care expenses in this country. (The remaining 90% of American Citizens make up the remaining 10% of expenses.) Logical extrapolation: rising costs are due to people like Tony Snow, Elizabeth Edwards, and, before they died, Terry Schiavo and Christopher Reeves. These are people who would have died without the high-tech, high-value health care available today in America.

The uninsured do go without needed health care. USA Today cites industry figures that, in 2004, approximately 18,000 American citizens died because they were uninsured and could not access needed health care. The UN study Stossel belittles considers this a problem, and the fact that Tony Snow can access this care does not erase the fact that John Doe cannot.

a better way
I posted this in the discussion of the Stossel story on Wisconsin's UHC experiment. It seems to be even more germane to this one. I have edited it to make it fit better and read more clearly.
"Being self insured. In other words my wife and I have put away enough money in an account strictly for our medical care over the years to cover ourselves pretty completely. We did this by opting out of employer paid health insurance and making a deal with our employers to put 80% of what they would have paid as a premium into my pay check. The 20% he kept was his incentive to go along with the deal. We then put that money plus what we would have had to pay as our portion of the premium into a mutual fund and over the years it built up to quite a tidy sum. We now can pay any medical expenses we have out of pocket. I am not a high powered executive, just a non-union carpenter. My wife has worked her way up from file clerk to upper management as a controller and I have been doing this since 1978 and I am now 55. She joined me in 1984. We have paid for the births of our 2 children and all their attendant normal medical costs as well as several surgeries and other medical incidents for myself and my wife. The amount we have put into this fund is substantially less than what we would have paid over the years for insurance through work and incredibly less than we would have paid to buy insurance privately. Now that we have done this we will fight to the end to not have to be included in some ponzi scheme run by either the State or federal governments. The above is in addition to our retirement savings which are set up in a similar fashion as well as a similar fund for my vehicles and home. In the case of my auto and home I used standard insurance to cover me until I could build up the proper funds to be able to stop buying insurance.

Tallil2long
I will not argue the point that was a generation ago.

Tallil2long
Is this where I throw up some references to sicko? All systems have problems. We are paying far too much and getting far too little. The waste is horrendous. I don't care how we fix it. My opinion is all systems have problems but we need to create our own. Screw it up our own way I guess to say it in simple terms. I prefer a civilian solution if it makes sense

CVN65
You are correct of course. Mainly wannabes but the results appear and sound good LOL. Me? I am so far gone even you could not help me LOL

lilly
I don't think Medicare should be forced on anyone. But, electing to not take the benefit after you have paid for it through a lifetime of payroll taxes is stupid. I predict that by the time I retire I will be told that I do not qualify based on my income and savings. So, I can pay into a system that I am supposed to benefit from for 45 years but lose those benefits with the stroke of a pen? Why can't I just opt out now and apply my money towards long-term care insurance? Or is it mainly important to continue to steal from the rich to give to the poor? Honestly, I can't see how you can expound the virtues of the pyramid scheme known as Medicare and, in the next post, bemoan the hospital charges to your insurance company (keeping your premiums elevated) that help offset the cost of treating the uninsured, indigent or moochers. Don't you see the contradiction?

Folks
I must run but thank you and be well

While it is true that most
of the health care costs in this country are going to a relative few, it is not true that it is due to people like Christopher Reeve. Most of those dollars go to the elderly. So what are you advocating, we cut off medicaid/medicare and let them die? I thought you libs wanted socilaized medicine.

Georgia Gal
Hey, pull the noggin' out of the deep dark area. Insurance companies couldn't give one less sh*t if you like them or not. I deal with them every day and you don't know the half of it. They will deny payment for things that they say they cover. I have been denied payment for a pre-approved procedure; the company rep stated that "a pre-approval is not a guarantee of payment". It was nice to have their permission anyway. But, to suggest that they take on patients with pre-existing conditions is to live in a fantasy world. I don't like them but why the heck should they? Would you buy a brand new car knowing fully that you would have to replace the engine, tires, transmission, etc within a few months or even immediately? It's a calculated risk to insure people and they are in it for the money. When the numbers come up very bad, ie a bad insurance risk, they don't issue a policy. On the other hand, they could just insure all comers and raise my rates more to pay for others' care. I am certain that the warm and fuzzy feeling would offset my financial loss. This is the second time I have had to explain this on TH, so listen up GG.

Costs
One of the problems with malpractice premiums is in a lot of instances other doctors know one is making mistakes and don't say anything for fear that it will happen to them. Finally one makes a major mistake and all pay in higher premiums. Give the AMA more power and make them start pulling licences on the gross screw-ups and make sure the penalty is US wide. I know of a plastic surgeon who messed up a womans face to the point it couldn't be repaired. The woman sued him and won, but the Dr went bankrupt, the judge favored him, and he went over the state line into KY. and opened up shop again. Wonder why health care is so high?

a better way 2
In reading through my posts I realized it sounded a lot like bragging. I assure you that was not my intent. Even though we are proud of what we've done my point was to show that insurance doesn't have to be the main focus of your financial plan. Independence should be the ultimate goal. I did this with a regular job, more than a little help from my wife because she has a vested interest in the success of this plan and she is the real financial and organizational wizard. One of the real benefits of a plan like this is you don't lose your coverage if you lose your job. Another is if you don't use all of it you get to pass it on. One final benefit is that when you pay cash you can negotiate the price. I typically pay between 55% to 75% although meds are generally full price.

Insurance Companies
Back in the fifties when I was working for 2.50 an hour I had medical insurance.Our first 2 children were born preemies.This meant close to six months in the hospital.The children were not covered until they were six months old.This put a huge financial cost on us,but after many years we paid off the hospitals.The state insurance agencies should keep closer tabs on the insurance companies so they don't take asdvantage of people.No we were not told of this lack of coverage.We were young and didn't know that the insurance agent wouldn't be truthful

Eastlake Joe
The AMA doesn't control medical licenses. They are like any other special interest group, they make recommendations and they help some with "self-policing". State Medical boards are what controls the licensing of doctors.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/2543.html

snake0311
What you are talking about is called an HSA. Yours is unique since it is entirely private. Most HSAs allow you to save money in a company account to use for medical care throughout the year. Many opt for a low-cost, high-deductible catastrophic illness policy just for peace of mind. This is the way I am going once my kids get older. I control the money and how it is invested. This is probably the way of the future, essentially eliminating the insurance companies. I know I can operate more cheaply without having to employ several people full time to precertify, negotiate, bill and rebill insurance companies. Getting cash on the barrelhead will simplify the process and improve cash flow as well as increase my profitability. Everyone wins except the insurance companies.

snake0311
That didn't sound like bragging at all. It is a harbinger of things to come. Of course there will be issues (bad investments, people being fleeced, etc) but it puts the power into the hands of the consumer. I will caution people out there about negotiating with their doctors, though. Feel free to try it but don't be surprised to hear "No". It is illegal for a doctor to charge less for a cash patient than the full fee that they send to the insurance company. (Yes, even if you still pay more than the ins. co. reimburses) So you are setting your doctor up for a lot of trouble if he or she goes along. Which I do not.

eastlake Joe
Vic has it right. But you are mistaken in your assumption about malpractice rates. Liability insurance rates go up for individual practitioners based on their claims history; in this way it is very fair. If a doctor is incompetent, his patients will file suits against him or her and complain to the State Board of Medicine. His rates will increase and he will be subject to sanctions by the authority that issues licenses. The only unfair part is when a doc gets sued and wins or is dropped from a lawsuit; the insurance company still raises his rates because of all of the legal fees. Until we get a "loser pays" system, this little bit of excrement will cause higher rates for good docs. And more cash for the lawyers.

Health Care Waiting Times
I remember a previous column on health care here at Townhall where a poster from Canada bitterly reproached us Americans for caring about waiting for care and ended his opinion by telling us BOO FRIGGING HOO. This must be the Canadian way of telling us that their system is better than ours even though you might die in the meantime and we should just get over it. If this is the best his country can do with regards to health care and he thinks we should emulate it God help us. His answer was in response to a female poster who praised our system for saving her child's life when the little boy came down with high fever that critically threatened his life. Care response time was important in this case. As a parent I can sympathise with the woman and salute our system for its quick response. And to our Canadian "friend": tell me BOO FRIGGING HOO when my child's life is at stake might get you put in the hospital.

my experience with US healthcare in phil
I am 72 and on medicare which costs insurance wise in deductions from my soc sec check $1000/yr. I think it is a ripoff on my progency because I can afford to pay more.
But here is what I get in a city with more hospital than anyother I think:

1. Lost use of my arm; mri in 2 days; operated on with fusion of vertebrae within a week. NO COST whatsover.

2. Needed replacment hip; in severe pain; on narcotics; one month delay in operation; free rehab after. Cost $330.

I could go on. Notice the rapidity of the treatment. So the care could not be better. I also have email relationships with all my doctors which avoids delay.

What is wrong with the above entitlement program is that it is ripping off taxpayers who are subsidizing this. I and many ohter characters retired in Florida and Arizona could afford to pay, let us say $5000 for this insurance program.
We only need safey net procedures for a very small minority.


len
It is very good of you to offer to pay for your care. You have paid for many years with payroll deductions already. Had you been able to keep that money and invest it, you would have had much more than you needed to pay for all of it with cash. I, as a taxpayer, have little problem with the people in the system that have paid into it. It is the recent immigrants that get the free medical care that chap my behind. Nobody should get any benefits without paying in first, regardless of what country they originate from (or from here).

cvn65
The amount deduced from paycheck from wokring people to medicare is a pittance; it nowhere covers the cost. I and others are being subsidized by taxes people are paying now. Medicare is on the road to bankruptcy or drastic cuts in serevices or huge taxes on the young.

I could see when you start to work of having some insurance company offering you a fixed annuity that guaranteed at least 5% a year that would go into policy only for medical expenses when you are 65 and it might be quite nest egg if you started at 18; and if you died before 65 or never got sick, it could be then transferred to your children.

In fact, I bought a fixed annuity a year ago with a guarantee of 5% per year; it did 20% last year. And so now my new principal is 20% higher and I am guaranteed at least 5% on that. So if one started at 18, one would surely have enough by the time 65 and no cost to taxpayer.


cvn65
Thank you. I have heard of HSA's. The trouble with them is that if you don't use the money by the end of the year you forfeit it. My system doesn't penalize you for being healthy and because it isn't legally earmarked (ooo that word)I can take excess monies from it and redistribute to any account I need or want to. Insurance companies wouldn't go away as there is still a need for them to protect you while you build your equity but at some point you become effectively self insured. If the government wants to help the people of this country they should teach people how to do this and act as a safety net for people who have catastrophic costs before they have the system set up. Having an entitlement attitude is destroying this country and the politicians are feeding the problem.

Health Care
CVN65 says: "But, to suggest that they take on patients with pre-existing conditions is to live in a fantasy world. I don't like them but why the heck should they?"

You make my point. The health care system does not work for the chronically ill, mainly because private health insurance companies refuse to pay for them. The answer is Universal Health Care (American Style). Maybe Single Payer, maybe multiple-payer with incentives for good management of the chronically ill (instead of, like now, incentives for denying care to the chrnoically ill.)

If we are serious about being a pro-life country, then a solution has to be found for the chrnoically ill.

Bogus Report Card on Healthcare
Universal Health Care for every man, woman and child in the USA. Think of the outcome in terms of “fairness”. It is only “fair” that a single mother on welfare should receive the same level of healthcare as Bill Gates! That will be the future battle cry of the Democrats.

That level of healthcare would cost multiples of the total US GDP! Of course, we do not have enough healthcare workers or the facilities needed to deliver that level of care, even if we could pay for it.

The sum total of mankind’s knowledge is doubling every five years. Most of that gain is in the biological sciences. And there are thousands, if not millions, of medical conditions that “need” treatment to improve quality of life. Thus the bar for state-of-the-art healthcare is rising continuously.

Healthcare has been a rationed or allocated resource for the past 10,000 years and will continue to be for the next 500 years. The current proposal is to allocate based upon delay and bureaucracy instead of income. So how does this improve the level of care for the poor and the less capable among us? Seems to me that that would reduce the level of care for these groups.

GeorgiaGal
Pre-existing conditions are covered by insurers but there is a waiting period of usually 6 months, sometimes more sometimes less. UHC is the last thing we should do (preferably long after we've inflicted it on our enemies).

Vic & CVN65
Yes I mis-spoke when I said AMA I meant licencing board. But it should be nation wide when a licence is pulled and it's not in all cases. If the man is incompetent in Ohio then he's also incompetent in Kentucky and California for that matter.
CVN65 I will guarantee you that if the number of claims rise the insurance is going to rise regardless of the personal record. If that weren't the case then all DR.s would not be complaining. The insurance company, like any other buisiness is out to make money. It's the way of insurance.

Health Care Comparison
Last year at this time I was diagnosed with a form of Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma. Wondering how my treatment would have differed had I been a Canadian, I was able to find information about wait times for various treatments in Canada. http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/wait_times/providers/wt_data.html#. (Wait times is a subject you rarely hear UHC advocates discuss.)
The median wait time for a referral to an oncologist in Ontario is 20 days, the average wait time for a CT scan 25 days, for an MRI 49 days, for surgery the median wait is 35 days and for radiation 29 days. Please bear in mind that roughly half of the patients required longer wait times for appointments or procedures. For me the wait time was less than a week for each. (I had chemotherapy instead of surgery, and wait times for chemo are apparently not tracked.) I also had other diagnostic tests, such as a bone marrow biopsy, a tissue biopsy, a PET scan, a MUGA scan and several blood tests for which wait time data are not available. The upshot of all this is that by any reasonable estimate I was finished with my treatment before it would have even begun, were I a Canadian.

cvn65
I checked about your assertion that negotiating with your Dr. may be proscribed and found that it is different from State to State. I am allowed to barter with mine. I can pay for services with services, produce or any commodity that my Dr is willing to accept. If your State has made it illegal then there is a good chance the insurance commission is owned by the insurance industry.

The high healthcare costs...
...are caused not by too little government involvement, but rather too much. So explains Ron Paul in a paper here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul175.html

He basically says that the third party payer system is killing the industry by removing the market connections between the provider and consumer. This was institutionalized in Ted Kennedy's HMO Act of 1973. This act required that employers offer healthcare coverage to employees. It also regulated the specifics of the insurance contracts. So now, the insurance company has no incentive to provide quality service because you have no other choice. And even worse, this has created more severe problems throughout the industry by creating a middleman between you and your healthcare supplier for every single doctor's visit and prescription. It no longer matters to the consumer what the price is, and everybody is all exasperated when the prices go through the roof, and they wonder why!

In short, health insurance in a free market would be what it once was--a safety net against catastrophic illness or injury. All other healthcare expenditures would be paid for out of pocket, which would force the kinds of price reductions and improvements in quality of service you see when businesses compete.

Now, of course Ron Paul was the only one not asked this question in any debates, and was also the only doctor on stage, so forgive me for getting the word out:)

Vic
This is your quote from probably your first
post. You directed people to look up the
information for ourselves so I did.

"The latest census report for health insurance says that 47 million don't have insurance and that will be touted by all. What they don't say is that 43% of those are illegal aliens. This article waits to the last part of the article and then tries to disguise it."

This is the quote from the USA Today: "•Among the foreign-born population, the uninsured rate for naturalized citizens was statistically unchanged at 16.4%, while the uninsured rate for non-citizens increased to 45% from 43.1%. "

I think that before you start quoting statistics,
you should learn how to read them. But perhaps
you already do know how. Perhaps you were
counting on no one else looking it up, but will
go and take the statiscs as gospel & quote them to other people.

Or perhaps you are counting on others to be as
dumb as you appear to be and will go and take
them as gospel..... (finish the sentence from
above).

For those of you who still need it spelled out,
45% of Non-citizens (of which illegal aliens are
a part of, but not the entire class by a long
shot)do not have insurance. That is a huge
difference from 45% of the total who are uninsured.




viruddh
I was at Walgreens today picking up a couple of
minor prescriptions. The guy ahead of me, who
I would put at about age 70, was also picking up
some not so-minor ones. I don't know if he had
medicaire or what he had but his cost was $210.00
for the two of them. He was furious. He started shouting at the clerk, and then apologized and said that he was going to talk
to his doctor because there was no way he could
afford the medicines.

He also said "I am going to write to the Pharmacy
companies" . I said to him - save your
breath. Write to your congressman." He gave
me an odd sort of look at first and then said -
that is exactly what I am going to do.

Get used to it. If your candidate doesn't address
health care that will cover everyone, then
your candidate is not going to win.

And while I am at it, I will remind you that
earlier in the year the brilliant Stossel suggested that we treat health care like an Indian bazaar: bargain till the price is what
you want. Sure Stossel. Great idea.

viruddh
Your conclusions about percentages are misleading at best. There are 12 to 20 million illegals in the US. There are virtually none of them who are insured. If you assume that 20 million is the correct amount then the math says that they constitute 43% of the uninsured population. If you assume 12 million is correct it becomes 25.5% and nowhere in the article does that information present itself.

At this again and again and again

Where does the blame lie with regards to our
health-care woes? How come no one ever requires accountability from the organizations/people mentioned below?

1. The American Medical Association must be required to see that all doctors are trained extensively in nutrition, diet and allergy.

(All auto-immune disorders have a link to diet/nutrition. The U.S. leads the world in obesity....and Celiac Disease (aka gluten intolerance and the undiagnosed millions), is linked to all autoimmune diseases/disorders/symptoms.

-checks and balances
Doctors must keep up on all new information/breakthroughs in their respective field of medicine and be held accountable for that in some way. Doctor's must be trained extensively in diet/nutrition/food allergy and should be required to perform extensive food allergy tests for any diagnosed auto-immune disorder, before being allowed to prescribe dangerous chemical drugs.


The AMA must show that they have trained doctors/keep training doctors in diet/nutrition
via public 'accountability' reports made available
to all U.S. citizens.


2. All pharmacist's must be trained in natural
supplements/vitamins which they would be able to distribute as well as 'chemically' patented medicines. The choice of whether a patient receives 'chemically' produced drugs/natural medicine should be left to the patient. The U.S. population is completely ignorant of the health benefits that 'natural' supplements provide.

U.S. pharmacist's are not trained in 'natural' medicine. Very interesting to note that 'nutrition' and 'diet' via the means of 'natural' supplements etc. is considered DANGEROUS in our country!) These supplements might take a little longer to see the health improvements, but they have no additives or chemicals and they work!

You don't make a huge profit off of natural medicine though.....that's the reason we have our FDA to make that decision for us!

and again.....
3. The FDA, instead of being an entity which profits from approving dangerous drugs, is required and held accountable to learn the benefits and health improvements from 'natural' minerals, vitamins...
what they commonly refer to as the 'unproven' methods of homeopathy. Funny how western Europe shows us up yet AGAIN in that regard.

(Who trains the FDA in 'chemically' induced drugs?
Who profits from BIG PHARMA? Who has ever trained the FDA in natural medicine? Let's hear about that report!)

Sorta makes you 'tingle' all over when you see that our health-care system is all about 'free-enterprise' instead of truly 'caring' for the patient.


4. All employed citizens should be required to have some portion of their paycheck which goes to pay for insurance coverage. (How much money taken out of the paycheck would be determined by the amount earned in a year, children at home, spouse's overall gross wage etc. This is the way the SUISSE cover all their citizens and it works fairly. But, there must be a national scale made up for this to work. (Yes, I know that there are only 7+million people living in Switzerland.)

5. All insurance companies should be required to have the same set-price for procedures, doctor visits, lab work, surgery costs etc. (Yes, they do this in France.)(The prices will vary depending on the 'cost of living' for each area.)

(Ever wonder why doctors in the U.S. make more money than other First World countries? Why is it also true that we probably lead the world in
health-care lawsuits, obesity, and nutritional problems, chronic diseases?)

-checks and balances

When a doctor tries to 'milk' the insurance company by intentionally charging more than what they know the insurance company will cover, they are penalized for it/the patient doesn't have to pay anything!)


and lastly
6. Prosecute any in the medical field who take bribes/offers/free-trips etc. from pharmaceutical companies. Doctors take an oath....just wondering if the wording had changed over the years to include drugs? Some diseases require 'drugs' but most of our health problems are linked to diet!
How come when I've been in a 'waiting room' to see a Doctor, the pharmaceutical rep. goes in before me to divvy out for drugs for the doctor?

7. Pharmaceutical companies should not be allowed to advertise? (Wouldn't that be a great boost to the majority of patients' health problems?)

(Are American's so naive as to believe that drug companies are there to CURE your ailments? That's the point of the drug....to cover up the symptoms, not to CURE you of anything.)

Just watch how many ads are on television, in the newspapers and magazines! It is criminal that 'free-enterprise' in the medical field in America has profited so many in the health field today, including many of our politicians and private citizens! Yet, so many of our citizens continue going to their doctors for the same-old prescription and no CURE!

The U.S. health system needs to change from the TOP!

Where to start? The AMA and doctor training, the FDA, pharmaceutical training to include 'natural' minerals and vitamins that heal without chemicals, and 'caps' on medical claims - nationwide.

Does anyone seriously believe that a govt. official/private citizen/doctor who has stock in a pharmaceutical company truly cares about your health?

How better to cut our health-care costs than get down to the problem - right at the heart of it all.








and lastly
6. Prosecute any in the medical field who take bribes/offers/free-trips etc. from pharmaceutical companies. Doctors take an oath....just wondering if the wording had changed over the years to include drugs? Some diseases require 'drugs' but most of our health problems are linked to diet!

7. Pharmaceutical companies should not be allowed to advertise? (Wouldn't that be a great boost to the majority of patients' health problems?)

(Are American's so naive as to believe that drug companies are there to CURE your ailments? That's the point of the drug....to cover up the symptoms, not to CURE you of anything.) Just watch how many ads are on television, in the newspapers and magazines! It should be criminal that 'free-enterprise' in America has profited so many in the health field today, including many of our politicians and private citizens! Yet, so many of our citizens continue going to their doctors for re-fills, not for any cure, mind you.

The U.S. health system needs to change from the TOP!

Where to start? The AMA and doctor training, the FDA, pharmacist's who have been trained not only in 'chemicals' but in 'natural medicine (vitamins, minerals, supplements) which are cheap and they work! Also, 'caps'placed on doctor fees, lab work, procedures, surgeries etc.

Does anyone seriously believe that a govt. official/private citizen/doctor who has stock in a pharmaceutical company truly cares about your health?

How better to cut our health-care costs than get down to the problem - right at the heart of it all.








mrcool
A couple of points. First go up a little way in the thread and read my posts on self insurance. Now, in your "solution" would I, as a self employed person with my own private health care plan be required to participate in your government run health care plan(#4)? The other thing is can you tell me if penicillin, etc. mask or cure infections when properly used? Does insulin mask or control diabetes? Do the various blood pressure medications mask or control blood pressure? I could go on but I think you should be getting the idea by now.

answers to snake0311
I didn't say a government run medical program. I did say medical care with some nationwide government controls - big difference. I highly doubt the medical community would do this on their own unless enough Doctors out there are tired of not being able to treat all patients.

I did not mention antibiotics, but yes, Celiac disease can cause chronic respiratory/sinus/ear infections. Food allergies cause inflammation and swelling throughout the body, and some people may say they have a certain 'area' of their body that
infections seem to target. (Any doctor who is dishing out antibiotics for chronic infections should have the patient tested for food allergies.)

Celiac disease/gluten allergy can also be the underlying problem beneath the diabetes. Many people have been told they have diabetes and celiac disease concurrently, but when a gluten-free diet begins, the diabetes goes away.
(Do some research of your own on this. There are lots of good articles on the internet.)

And.......Celiac Disease does cause a change in blood flow because of the inflammation of the arteries. Not a lot of research done in that area, but there are people who get put on 'coumadin' who should first be tested for celiac disease, especially if a family member has CD. (Read all the stories of people who say their blood feels like it is flowing again once they went gluten-free.) And yes, this is a genetic disease that is well-known in western europe. Anyone with western European ancestry should get checked, if
they have chronic health complaints or an auto-immune disease.

A simple blood test called the celiac blood panel along with food allergy tests are easy places to start.

I've got the idea - our healthcare system needs to find the underlying health problem. The diagnosis
isn't the problem, we need to find what caused that - right?

and while I'm on this topic....
So, if anyone out there reading this has:

constipation, diahrea, irritable bowel diagnosis, bloating, headaches!, joint pain (pain can travel from various joints), chronic sinus/ear/throat/chest infections, inflammation, fatigue - (fibromyalgia diagnosis), anemia, eczema, raised bumps on skin that itch, kidney or thyroid problems, swollen hands/feet etc., has suffered miscarriages, gestational diabetes, floating stools, stools with mucus attached, weight gain/weight loss, red eyes, indigestion, palpitations, dizziness, fainting, anemia, taking coumadin (this happened in my family), ......the list goes on and on...........

(diagnoses of thyroid problems, diabetes, fibromyalgia, lupus, arthritis, chronic respiratory infections/conditions, low/high blood pressure etc....basically all auto-immune disorders!)

To get tested for Celiac disease you must not take any anti-histamines for up to 5 days before your blood is drawn/skin prick tests are done or you will get a negative test.

Testing isn't perfect, but the gluten-free diet almost always is. On the diet, your body will tell you when you start to notice all your symptoms go away. Boy, does that feel good!

There is a test done in Miami, FL called the http://www.alcat.com test and this is a blood test which shows 185+ foods that you have a late-reaction intolerance to.

So do our Doctors need to be trained better in just this ONE incidence of food allergy/intolerance? Yes!

And does our country need to find out more about the great benefits of 'natural' medicine which is cheap and without chemicals? Another yes!

To the above questions, does insulin cure diabetes - no! Does blood pressure medicine cure high blood pressure - no! Is diet linked - yes! Does homeopathic medicine cure an infection - yes! Should a chronic 'infection' sufferer keep using antibiotics - NO!

mrcool
That is quite an interesting disease. I agree that a good many of our problems are either caused by or exacerbated by diet. I apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusions about what you were proposing. I plan on talking to my doctor about this, not because I may have it, but to make him aware if he isn't. He seems pretty open about using natural treatments in conjunction with the more standard ones and when I had high blood pressure and elevated cholesterol he used drugs to control them and diet to correct the problem resulting in my not having those problems today. You didn't really answer the questions I asked though. I didn't ask if diabetes or blood pressure problems are cured I asked if they were controlled. I realize that both of those diseases and many more are affected by diet as well as by drugs and I try to keep an open mind about those things Good luck in your efforts to educate people.

thanks!


You sound like you do have an open mind!

Sorry, my reply was 'meant' to show that the drugs do not cure, but that they can control the symptoms of the disease and they can be expensive.
They also do not stop the on-going destruction to your body while the 'blanket' is keeping you warm.

Diet can control it and cure it so long as you listen to your body. Our bodies tell us when something isn't quite right, we just forgot the fact that we weren't designed to eat everything we see.... and that we might be tempted by the 'super-size' portions for '25cents' more mentality.

How many people have the willpower and self-control to become
'master' over their body and their health? Food for thought if you really want to feel better and you may find you don't have to go back to the doctor.

Considering the astronomical prices in health care today, and with so many people having chronic symptoms and diseases, it's also important to remember that we can't eat all the additives, chemicals and sugar substitutes (approved by the FDA) without experiencing detrimental health effects.

The Mayo Clinic has done some research on allergy/cancer link.

The Huntsman Cancer Center in SLC does genetic research on cancer, not in finding the cause of cancer (in Celiac patients...who will usually end up getting some form of abdominal cancer, non-hodgkins lymphoma has a 5x greater chance in an undiagnosed celiac), but they research how cancer spreads throughout the body.

So do we sit and complain about insurance companies solely being the problem? No - let's start with the AMA, FDA, doctor/pharmacist training and give U.S. citizens the 'approved' choice of natural supplements


Click to enlarge this photo! MMoore is..
You serious? You want me to enlarge Michael Moore? LOL ....As George Patton once said,
I read your BOOK! you magnificient SOB!
John S. In your book you said, "Do as I say, Not as I do" Here we have MM going to CUBA claiming their health program is better than the USA!
All I can say is... Fellow Americans, you have to bring something to the party. You can help your health situiation, eat right, maintain a healthy weight, don't smoke, exercise,etc.
It isn't rocket science, give your body a fighting chance! It is hard to imagine MM on a health crusade, he must be ?? 75-100# overweight?
Trying to convince the obese fellow Americans that they would be better under a Socialist
for their health! If all Americans would live a healthy life style, then everyone could afford health insurance! God help us...
Axle
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