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Wednesday, June 27, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Big-Government Conservatives
by John Stossel
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"Reviving the Hamilton Agenda." That's the headline the New York Times gave David Brooks's recent column honoring Alexander Hamilton, the Founding Father perhaps least interested in limiting political power. Unlike his rival Thomas Jefferson, Hamilton favored strong central government and weaker states.

And he didn't trust the free market. He was an old-fashioned mercantilist -- he wanted politicians and bureaucrats to control private economic activities for the sake of special business interests.

In the true Hamiltonian spirit, Brooks also doesn't trust the market -- which means he doesn't trust free, peaceful individuals and private property. He writes, "We Hamiltonians disagree with the limited government conservatives [I assume Brooks has libertarians like me in mind] because, on its own, the market is failing to supply enough human capital."

Now David Brooks is a bright guy, so I wonder how he can blame the free market for failing in this way. He continues, "Despite all the incentives, 30 percent of kids drop out of high school and the college graduation rate has been flat for a generation."

Excuse me, but why is that the market's fault? Government dominates education in America. K-12 education is a coercive, often rigidly unionized government virtual monopoly that fights every attempt to experiment with free-market competition.

Brooks writes that Hamiltonians like him "think government should help people get the tools they need to compete." But when has government ever been good at that?

He claims the state can "increase the quality of human capital" by, for example, providing "Quality preschool [to] help young children from ... disorganized homes. ... "

Really? What is the chance that it would be "quality" preschool if government runs it? Even the acclaimed Head Start has not been shown to have any lasting effect on academic performance.

Why does Brooks think the government is competent enough to "help ... people compete"? He writes that liberals' "programs haven't worked out," but then proposes his own. When I challenged him on that, he said his ideas are in a "different category" and argued that some intervention is effective and necessary.

Please. When I asked Brooks why a government that performed as ineptly as FEMA did after Hurricane Katrina will be better at running preschools, he said, "Some lives are so screwed up, it's hard to make them worse."

Government coercion almost always makes things worse. It discourages individual effort, and sucks capital away from more productive uses.

Brooks, like a good Hamiltonian, favors coercive government micromanagement. He says, "Bigger child tax credits and increasing the earned income tax credit [welfare] can reduce the economic strain on young families. ... [G]overnment should increase funding for basic research, especially in math, engineering and physics.

"The list could go on."

That's what I'm afraid of.

Government will choose which "basic research" to fund? Does he recall the 1970s synthetic-fuels program or the 1990s Superconducting Super Collider boondoggle?

Child tax credits? Just cut taxes for everyone!

Brooks even advocates national service, "forcing city kids to work with rural kids, and vice versa."

Why are pundits and politicians so eager to use force against others?

America became an economic power despite, not because of, Hamiltonian intervention. Hong Kong and much of East Asia went from abject poverty to affluence in a few decades not because their governments gave people "tools they need to compete" -- they didn't -- but because they exercised limited powers.

I wish Brooks and other Hamiltonian conservatives understood that freedom and prosperity have nothing to do with bureaucrats managing society through schooling and tax manipulation. Prosperity comes from leaving people free in a legal system that respects their persons and property so they can pursue their dreams while taking responsibility for their actions. Free people find their own tools if the state leaves them alone.

In the era of big government, the last thing we need are champions of the statist Hamilton. What we need now are champions of the libertarian Jefferson, who said in a very un-Hamiltonian way: "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

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John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Hamiltonian
or "Big Government" conservatism is an oxymoron.

Ain't no such animal.


Big Government Conservatism
... is alive and well.

A Big Government Conservative is someone who wants fewer regulations on business, lower taxes for everybody, less welfare, BUT, wants to give more powers to the FCC to make sure nobody EVER utters the "F-Bomb" on TV between the hours of midnite and 11pm, when some poor kiddies under 21 might be awake and watching.

A Big Government Conservative wants government to be smaller, EXCEPT in areas of making sure nobody does drugs, gambles, pays for sex, or looks at pictures of naked ladies (unless it's in the National Geographic). In those areas, then there isn't any sort of Governmental Increase that's not too excessive.

In that regard, no, it's not Socialism. So, yes, we do need to invent a new phrase.

Code Name
Big government conservatives is code name for liberals trying to infiltrate and hinder the true conservative movement. Small centeral government and stronger states, give as much power to the people as possible. That is true freedom, liberty, and prosperity.

Alby
I believe they're called "social conservatives."

Unca Alby and Stoic Patriot
If you want to make social conservatives mad be my guest, but don't be surprised when the repub party becomes a permanent minority. Choose your battles wisely.
Also, I think it is very admirable to fight for virtue and against debauchery. This society is in decline, I think, because of weakening morality. At least they are trying to do something about it instead of giving in to moral relativism.

Ain't no such animal?
Ah, but there obviously is.

Now we need to be careful here for there are legitimate purposes for government and the Constitution does empower ours to exercise that power in areas like national defense, interstate commerce, treaties--you've all read the document, I'm sure.

The rest is left to the states or the people. Like your money, which the Democrats all too often seem to want to manage, or your morals, which the Republicans, of late, all too often seem to want to manage. That's a paraphrase of Michael Badnarik in hi Constitution class*.

To restate Stossel slightly: "Prosperity [,monetary and moral,] comes from leaving people free in a legal system that respects their persons and property so they can pursue their dreams while taking responsibility for their actions."


*http://www.missouriconservative.com/multimedia/constitutionclass.shtml

Big-Government Conservatives
When we let the government make our choices, we are giving control to a handful of politicions and beaurocrats. When we let markets decide, we are putting our trust in the collective wisdom of every single buyer and seller alive. Whom do you trust?

As soon as you lose faith in people...
You begin to become a micromanager.

Re: Big -Government Conservatives
aginghippy you are clear and correct! Part of the great divide in the world is that those on the left generally have the mentality of children. They look at government as a parent, and therefore government to them is a security blanket. They trust it, and in fact often worship government as a religion (liberalism).

The alternative is very scary to leftists.

This is important though, leftists only like big government when it's controlled by leftists. For mature normal functioning human beings (non-leftists), even when leftists gain a majority in government, there isn't an emotional meltdown generally, because unlike leftists, conservatives have faith and confidence in the power of the human spirit which gravitates to freedom and liberty.

again I ask
How does one make money in a free market without helping people?

A lefty's greatest fear: that somewhere, somehow someone may have to go to WORK and PAY for SOMETHING.

Enforce the constitution, foreign policy, commerce and defense. No other uses I can see for the federal government.

It is really discouraging
when you see so-called conservatives falling prey more and more to the notion "let government do it". Everyone points to Katrinia to illustrate the failure of government but few point out that the slick business system of that evil Wal Mart quickly brought order out of chaos and got the goods to the people who needed them. To call ones-self "conservative" you have to believe that the least government is the best government. After all, not only is governments record one of sloppiness, but that "letting government do it" deprives us of the freedom that has made this country great.


Good posts all.
Brooks is an idiot at best, and President Bush has pushed this big government agenda with the slick marketing of something called "compassionate conservatism". But then, we all knew he wasn't a true conservative, but as usual, we were stuck with the old "vote for the lesser of two evils" approach.

We must change this atmosphere and get away from this idea that only a Democrat OR Republican can be President. It is a myth perpetuated by the Dem/GOP/MSM propaganda machines, utilizing the time tested formula of speaking a lie often enough until it becomes believed and accepted as true. In the process, we have lost our inheritance to a group of internationalist elites and we were bought off with entitlements and pork barrel projects. Shut up we are told, take the goodies, go home, send in your tax dollars, and leave the country in our most capable hands. And that is what we have done!

We need to break free from this backwards ideology that is stealing the future of this great nation and our children. We need to disabuse the elites of the idea that they are invulnerable to the will of the people. We need to remove the hold they have on power, and there is only one way to do it! WE NEED TO DENY THEM THAT WHICH THEY DESIRE THE MOST, THE PRESIDENCY!

If we elect another one of these elites in 2008, we guarantee more big government, less personal freedom and more power to the one world government idealists. I urge you to visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG and discover exactly how we can accomplish this goal and restore the Constitution, rule of law, and will of the people as the principles by which we govern ourselves as a free people. Check it out, what's to lose? Our birthright has already been stolen, we only need to reclaim it. Thanks, Joe

Mr. Stossel
Another Classic!

No more modifiers
You guys have already hit all the key points.

BrianR took the words right out of my mouth at 1:40 AM (I guess you have to get up REAL early in the morning to beat BrianR to the punch).

tanabear and Drew point out that "big-government conservative" is just an alias for more liberalism.

Uncle Alby and Collin combine to point out how the decline in morality over the last 40 years has degraded this country politically, economically and spiritually.

DavidM correctly observes that a businessman cannot succeed in the free market without helping people.

So let's get rid of all of these modifiers; "fiscal" conservative, "compassionate" conservative, "big-government" conservative, "social" conservative.

Conservatism means one thing only, which is reflected in the word itself. We don't use the force of government unless it's necessary. And we define "necessary" CONSERVATIVELY.

Retirement insurance (aka Social Security) is NOT a province of our government and thus is not mandated by the Constitution. The same goes for unemployment insurance, health care, welfare, and numerous other big-government programs. Anything associated with the New Deal or the Great Society is anti-conservative by its nature and definition.

The best example of an appropriate use of government force to constrain the free market is the Sherman Anti-trust Act. This prevents the large fish in any business market from eating the small fish and monopolizing that market.

But the endless regulations that today's big-government imposes on business amount to exactly what Stossel and poster Lord Archaleon say; micromanagement.

Worse, it is now impossible for big-government to look at private enterprise through any lens that is not primarily comprised of the attitude that private business exists to pay taxes that will support big government.

The minute any self-described "conservative" feels compelled to put a modifier like "fiscal", "social", "compassionate", or, especially, "big-government" in front of the word he erodes and insults the term and those of us who remain true to it.

collin -- Who's Pushing Who?
quoth collin: "If you want to make social conservatives mad be my guest, but don't be surprised when the repub party becomes a permanent minority. Choose your battles wisely."

The same can be said for social conservatives making libertarians mad.

It's the social conservatives on Townhall who keep posting blogs trying to re-define conservatism in such a way as to conveniently remove the last vestiges of limited government.

Libertarians try to keep focused on limited government. Social conservatives want limited government EXCEPT in those cases where it would be really convenient to have a Big Cop enforcing their ideals of morality.


collin: "Also, I think it is very admirable to fight for virtue and against debauchery."

Of course it is. Where we part company is when you want to use Government as a tool in that fight. That's Big Government Conservatism.


collin: "This society is in decline, I think, because of weakening morality. At least they are trying to do something about it instead of giving in to moral relativism."

"Moral relativism" is, at best, a "relative" term. Morality is far too flexible and subjective to be codified into law. You can be arrested in Manhattan for dressing the way it's common in Micronesia, and you can be stoned in Iran for, almost anything. Today, Social Conservatives are all bent out of shape over the "F-Bomb". A few years ago, the world was all aghast when Clark Gable uttered "damn", and today, Townhall doesn't even filter the word.

All sorts of things might contribute to causing this "decline" -- and it's even a matter of opinion whether it's really declining or not -- but there should be no question that government is part of the PROBLEM, not part of the solution.

So again, when you want Big Government to enforce your morality, we part company.

LOL, Wiseone
I'm out here on the Left Coast.

When the new columns hit the site at midnight EST, it's only 9 PM for me!


Stossel for President!
Well said above, and perhaps best summed up in this paraphrase of Hayek:

Who is a more efficient allocator of resources and energy? A handful of beaurocrats, even if they are the smartest people in the land, or millions of people acting independently to further their own best interests in a free and open exchange with each other? Even the smartest person with the best prepared reports can have only a tiny fraction of the collective information of each actor in the marketplace.


Pretty easy answer - yes to free markets and individuals, no to socialism and big government.

Instead of Karl Marx and all the other socialist garbage that is required reading nowadays in schools the works of Hayek and Milton Friedman should be read by every high school and college student (AND TEACHER) in this nation.

Hamilton
I think Brooks and a few other people need to study Hamilton. He is being taken way out of context. Furthermore to an extent he was right. If he wasn't we would have never had or needed a civil war.

BrianR
I'm on the left coast yet I don't get my TH early. How do you do that?

Unca Alba
I consider myself to be somewhat libertarian but to say that morality is far to flexible to and subjectice to be codified by law is just wrong. Without some attempt to codify morals into laws there would be no laws at all. The trick is to make laws that prevent imoral actions of one person from affecting some one else. For example, theft directly affects someones personal propety while drug use only affects the idiot that uses the drugs. If that idiot then chooses to steal to support his drug habit charge him with theft not drug use.

Lolo, just wait
until a couple minutes after 9 PM local time (midnight EST), then log on. All of the next days columns will be up, and ready for reading and commenting.


Unca Alby
I actually don't disagree with you as much as you may think. I just object to your disparaging social conservatives so much. The big spending usually is not on social things, but on entitlements and pork like bridges to nowhere etc.
I would challenge you as well on saying that you cannot legislate morality. Every law has a moral aspect to it. Every law contains a "should." We should protect minorities, we should lock up criminals, we should value this or that and therefore we pass laws according to what the majority feels should be the law.

Big government conservatives
Big government conservatives are as real as free health care, or George Bush enforcing immigration laws, or Michael Moore doing what he does for the benefit of the American people, or Nancy Pelosi believing in open government financing, or John McCain being a Republican, or profesional wrestling being real, or ...

Minor Clarification on Legal vs. Moral
The only moral aspect to the law should be the protection of one individual from another.

Murder: one person deprives another person of life.

Theft: one person deprives another person of property.

Fraud: one person deceives another person with the intent to gain unfair advantages which the person would not normally agree to.

The above are the only proper purview of the law.

You don't get a limited government unless you restrict it to *only* the areas where it's *supposed* to operate.

Liberals believe it is "immoral" for companies to pay employees less than a "living wage." Social Conservatives believe it is "immoral" for TV broadcasters to utter the "F-bomb". In both cases, asking the government to enforce someone's concept of "morality" must necessarily add size to the government.

There is an infinite number of things that someone might have a good argument as being "moral", and unless we maintain these restrictions, that argument will be applied to increasing government.

Government needs to stay out of areas of "morality", and be restricted to areas of protecting us from each other.

big G conservaties are US farmers
$30 billion go to farm subsidies each year.

pork and more pork for this Stalinist-Collectivist system. Time to scrap this all together and let the dreaded free markets decide.

We could scrap all the ethonal subsidies to boot also!


re: gatormb
gatormb wrote:

"I consider myself to be somewhat libertarian but to say that morality is far to flexible to and subjectice to be codified by law is just wrong. Without some attempt to codify morals into laws there would be no laws at all..."

>>>>>

You are absolutely wrong. (Continued below.)

=================================

"... The trick is to make laws that prevent imoral actions of one person from affecting some one else. For example, theft directly affects someones personal propety while drug use only affects the idiot that uses the drugs..."

>>>>>

Theft is not illegal BECAUSE it is immoral. Theft is illegal BECAUSE it is an assault against another's Rights to Property.

Thomas Jefferson said, "No man has the natural right to commit aggression against the Equal Rights of another and this is all from which the Law ought to restrain him."

The Declaration of Independence says, "... That to secure these rights [to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness], Governments are instituted among Men..." It does NOT say, "... That to secure these MORALS..."


There is a HUGE difference between protecting the Rights of individuals and protecting/codifying morality.

Unca Alby
Amen! And, Hear! Hear!!

For Unca Alby
What you say is essentially true, but my point is this.

The cultural, economic, emotional, and political success of a nation depends on its morality as well as its laws.

I do not argue that there are "morals" that should not be enforced as laws. But when people use what collin is calling moral relativism to excuse behavior, language, or practices that are destructive to society the damage is not any less just because no laws have been broken.

I offer the following as examples.

Rap music, feminism, entitlement mentality and/or culture, policies that require equality of outcomes instead of equality of opportunity.

We have degrading morals that degrade the law, usually in the form of "innovative" lawsuits that suddenly render what were once traditional and useful customs and conduct impractical and, for all intents and purposes, illegal.

re: wiseone
wiseone wrote:

"... We have degrading morals that degrade the law, usually in the form of 'innovative' lawsuits that suddenly render what were once traditional and useful customs and conduct impractical and, for all intents and purposes, illegal."

>>>>>>

In essence, what you are saying is that you believe that you have the authority to meddle in other people's business, through government intervention, when you disapprove of their conduct -- the music they choose, their manner of dress, their language (ie: cussing), their choice of "after-hours" activities, and etcetera.

You are certainly free to stand by the tradition(s) of your choice. And you are free to proselytize about those traditions and seek to peaceably encourage others to embrace and uphold them. You are NOT free to use force -- even indirectly through the police power of the state -- to compel compliance with those traditions, however.

The problem arises when moralists and traditionalists seek to usurp the police power of the government to forcibly impose THEIR ideas of propriety and tradition upon everyone else through Law.


In short, unless they're doing wrong by you personally, quit worrying so much about what everyone else is doing. There are just too d@mned many busibodies worryin' too much about, and trying to control, what OTHER people are doing.

Liberty first
At no point did I (or do I) declare the authority you describe. That is either a presumption you have interpreted or something I unintentionally inferred.

I merely point out that immoral behavior is destructive whether it is legal or not, and some behavior which is immoral but legal becomes even more harmful in that it causes us to change what is legal.

To illustrate more clearly, imagine if drugs like cocaine, heroine, meth, etc. were legalized, as some advocate. Would the addicitve and other damaging effects of these drugs not be the same, legal or illegal?

Quite the opposite of what you interpret, I not only believe that morality should not be legislated, but that even legitimate laws cannot be imposed by force. Laws are only effective if nearly all citizens respect them and abide by them. Look what has happened because so many have ignored our laws against illegal immigration.

The same goes with moral issues. People should respect what is moral and abide by it because it is best for our society, not out of fear of being arrested. And yes, I do understand that there will be a lot of disagreement on what is or is not moral. That is why, as a conservative, I want government intervention only reluctantly and only and when it is necessary.

Big Government Conservatives
Hamiltonian statists and big government liberals should lose the notion that government can guarantee equal outcomes for all citizens. In a free country you will have layers of economic strata, based on the individual's personal ambition, initiative, and intelligence. The best government can do is provide a climate where equality of opportunity is available to all who will take advantage of it.

Unca Alby
Re: your post of 2:17.
GREAT POST! You just given excellent reasons why we need MORE LIBERTARIANS in Government.

Will, I agree in a sense
That invasion to "spread democracy" is a chimera and frankly unconstitutional. Look how well it's worked out in the ME, where the Palestinians had democratic elections and put HAMAS in office.

However, we do have the right -- as affirmed in the Monroe Doctrine -- to engage in foreign wars to promote and protect our own national self-interest, and a stable and secure source of oil would certainly fall into that category.

So we should install our own Shah-of-Iran style strongman in Iraq and call it a day. An enlightened, pro-American despot. Best solution.

Big Government Conservatives
It appears we have a complete disconnect within political realms. There really is NO such thing as a "conservative" or a "smaller government" politician within the federal government system and extremely few within the states.
One only need to look at the word "compromise" and how often it is used in political circles to see the one party system has most people duped.

An individual standing on principles WON'T COMPROMISE their morals or that of their constituents when their back is pushed against the wall. They would FIGHT for what is RIGHT and not back down until they stood on a more Constitutional ground.

Sorry folks NO one that I can see in either of the parties fits this mold

re: wiseone
wiseone wrote:

"At no point did I (or do I) declare the authority you describe. That is either a presumption you have interpreted or something I unintentionally inferred..."

>>>>>

I apologize. I misinterpretted your remarks, based on a misreading of the context, to indicate that you were advocating keeping/making immoral conduct illegal BECAUSE it is immoral and to protect "tradition". Mea culpa.

=====================================

"... I merely point out that immoral behavior is destructive whether it is legal or not, and some behavior which is immoral but legal becomes even more harmful in that it causes us to change what is legal..."

>>>>>

Huh? How exactly does behavior which is immoral BUT legal cause us to change what is legal?

=====================================

"... To illustrate more clearly, imagine if drugs like cocaine, heroine, meth, etc. were legalized, as some advocate. Would the addicitve and other damaging effects of these drugs not be the same, legal or illegal? ..."

>>>>>

Criminalizing drugs increases the costs of production and distribution (due to the risk factors), as well as the profit margins -- the profit has to be high enough to warrant taking the risks to manufacture and distributing the contraband -- thereby raising the price. As a result, with a few exceptions (noteably of the "celebrity" persuasion), junkies often resort to more nefarious means (ie: robbery, burglary, etcetera) to pay for their habit.

On the other hand, decriminalizing drugs will eliminate most of the risks of manufacturing and distributing drugs (eg: confiscation, jail time, violence from rivals, etcetera) thereby reducing the price. Additionally, with a "free market", competitors legally manufacturing and selling drugs will compete in both price and quality bringing the price much lower than it currently is. As a result, fewer junks will need to resort to property crimes to fund their addiction.

So, no, the damaging effects are NOT the same. While the "damaging" effects of ADDICTION are the same to the individual and their relations, the related "damage" to society (ie: drug-related crime) is greatly reduced.

For historical reference, see Prohibition and the effects of (a) criminalizing and then (b) decriminalizing the horrid, evil, immoral, toxic drug "alcohol".

[ At least back then the Congress KNEW it had no constitutional authority, WITHOUT an amendment, to prohibit the use and abuse of a certain substance... ]

=====================================

"... Quite the opposite of what you interpret, I not only believe that morality should not be legislated, but that even legitimate laws cannot be imposed by force. Laws are only effective if nearly all citizens respect them and abide by them..."

>>>>>

Roger!

=====================================

"... The same goes with moral issues. People should respect what is moral and abide by it because it is best for our society, not out of fear of being arrested..."

>>>>>

Agreed. The problem therein, however, is that what people believe is "best for our society" is incredibly subjective. Just look at the fundamental disagreements between "liberals" and "conservatives". BOTH sides think that THEIRS is the "best for our society". The same goes for "socialists" and "capitalists", "Christians" and "Muslims", "Humanists" and "Evangelists". And etcetera.

=====================================

"... And yes, I do understand that there will be a lot of disagreement on what is or is not moral. That is why, as a conservative, I want government intervention only reluctantly and only and when it is necessary."

>>>>>

With all due respect, you are sounding far more libertarian than conservative =)

Conservaties are lousy at big government
Two things here:

1) Government (meaning the swivel servants that staff it) generally hate conservatives and conservative principles. Thus, when someone like Bush tries to use big government to push a conservative program (ie NCLB - quality education with verificable results), it gets sabotaged (or at least ignored). Unless we plan to fire all the snivel servants and replace them with conservatives . . . oh wait, smart conservatives become bankers, army officers, doctors, engineers etc. Liberals will naturally and almost inevitably have a lock on government, so the only reasonable course is to make government as small as possible.

2) Government, especially in America, is generally inept. Often times, this actually saves us from bearing the full brunt of liberal programs - but it also means that we conservatives ought not to pin our hopes on it either. In places like France, the civil service has a lot of cache - and smart, driven people will go to work in the bowels of the minisitries. Sure these peoplpe are generally lefties (are there any other kind in France?) but they are genuinely talented. In the US, the bulk of smart lefties go into law, medicine, business etc. Lots of the Silicon Valley start ups have been helmed by folks whose politics I find horribly leftist, but whose talents I cannot deny. Since this seems to be an unchangable state of affairs, it is best to keep government small.

Conservaties are lousy at big government
A question on this assumption??

Besides education being used as a means for the defense of nation, meaning every whining brat enrolled in government schools having to serve in the military.

Exactly where in the Constitution does it allow for the federal government to create legislation and fund education for the masses??

It's not that NCLB is an utter boondoogle, the point is the feds have no Constitutional authority to be the Education Czar.

"forcing city kids...
... to work with rural kids, and vice versa."

Holy crap! He sounds like Pol Pot!

Liberty First
An example of "immoral"behavior leading to changes in laws - divorce.

There was once a stigma attached to it. The stigma was purely a moral one. Once enough people defied this morality society was compelled to remove the stigma. Hence, state laws that once required "fault" to allow divorce were changed to accommodate "no-fault" divorce.

The relaxation of this stigma led to the relaxation of another, single motherhood.

Long story short, today 70% of children are NOT growing up in a home with their married biological parents. Studies show this has had numerous negative consequences on the kids and on society.

RE: drugs

A drug itself is just as addictive legal or not. That was my point. Of course you are right about cost, prohibition, etc.

Re: what's best for society.

Relating this point back to Stossel's theme and Unca Alby's point, it is conservatives (and, especially, libertarians) who believe that their morality should not be legislated. Contrary to what the left would have you think, so-called social conservatives are not angry about gay marriage, abortion, or "separation of churchand state" because they want to impose their morality on others. We merely don't want others morality imposed on us. Abortion gets a little gray on this one because there are the legitimate questions of state's rights and whether it is homicide. Liberals on the other hand, want to force everyone to stop praying on public property and to honor same-sex marriage the same as hetero-sexual marriage. These are cases of the left imposing their morality and theology on the rest of the country. So I say it's not the same.

Finally, you are not the first to suggest I sound like a Libertarian. One of my golfing buddies keeps trying to recruit me because he thinks I'd make a good one. But if I tell you I fully support our invasion of Iraq, and think we should wipe out Iran's nuclear weapons program next, by whatever pre-emptive means necessary, that will probably change your mind.

wiseone
"he minute any self-described "conservative" feels compelled to put a modifier like "fiscal", "social", "compassionate", or, especially, "big-government" in front of the word he erodes and insults the term and those of us who remain true to it."

Well said.


Don't you folks think it's high time we reinstated the Constitution?


Handy
Thanks for the info on Ayn Rand and the Sherman Anti=Trust Act.

I read "Atlas Shrugged" many years ago and I think it should be required reading for all high school kids. We'd have better readers and more conservatives if it was.

As I recall, and this is strictly from memory, Sherman was established in reaction to the concern that Standard Oil (which was bought by BP a few years back, how's that for irony?) would become the only supplier of crude oil and gasoline products in the country. So my understanding differs from yours and Ayn Rand's. Iagree that the assessment that a price is too high or too low is purely subjectiuve and totally irrational when made by bureaucrats who are unqualified to know what is "to high" or "too low". The assessment of whether there is only one supplier is much more objective, and there for more rational.

I have no doubt that there have been abuses of this Act. Government is insidious in that regard. But anti-monopoly controls were also used in cases where monopolies were allowed for practical reasons in the public utilities industry; telephones, electricity, natural gas, and water. More recently you can add cable TV to the list.

In my case I do not wonder if some form of monopoly control would have eventually been required if Sherman hadn't been enacted. I believe that, human nature being what it is, sooner or later one of these monopolies would have so abused its advantage that some form of regulation would have been needed and enacted.

Key word here is "needed". The only justification for government intervention. I agree with you that if enforcement is arbitrary and therefore irrational the control is, by definition, not needed.

BTW - I believe Netscape was one of the whiners that went after Microsoft. I have also expressed on other threads on Townhall that Microsoft contributed a thousand times more to the dot-com boom of the '90's than Clinton, who took credit for it, and that Clinton showed his true colors (shiite brown) when he rewarded Bill Gates for this by suing him.

Liberty
"Don't you folks think it's high time we reinstated the Constitution?"

Everyone wants to reinstate the Constitution; by their own interpretation of it.

Note that the most radical liberals also claim they want to reinstate the Constitution and accuse Bush of shredding it. But their interpretation of the Constitution is radically different than yours or mine.

While there are some who are not above knowingly bastadizing the meaning of the Constitution to achieve their own political ends, for the most part the disagreement is over what the Constitution allows, what it requires, and what it forbids.

re: wiseone
wiseone wrote:

"An example of 'immoral' behavior leading to changes in laws - divorce..."

>>>>>

How is that an example if immoral BUT ALREADY legal conduct leading to a change in laws?

=================================

"... There was once a stigma attached to it. The stigma was purely a moral one. Once enough people defied this morality society was compelled to remove the stigma. Hence, state laws that once required 'fault' to allow divorce were changed to accommodate 'no-fault' divorce..."

>>>>>

False.

You have your "events" backwards. "No fault" divorce preceded the current acceptance -- destigmatized -- divorce. The change in divorce law is quite frequently cited as the cause for the destigmatization of divorce.

=================================

"... The relaxation of this stigma led to the relaxation of another, single motherhood..."

>>>>>

Again, false.

Destigmatization of premarital sex -- the "sexual revolution" -- is what is generally accused of leading to a rise in single motherhood rates which, thereby, drove the destigmatization OF single motherhood. As something becomes more prevalent, more common... more normal... it also becomes more accepted and, consequently, destigmatized.

A welfare state that rewards women for downloading illegitimate babies -- and punishes women for marrying the father -- has ALSO fueled it.

Long story short, today 70% of children are NOT growing up in a home with their married biological parents. Studies show this has had numerous negative consequences on the kids and on society.

Note: For reference, "single motherhood" generally connotes having a child or children out of wedlock, ESPECIALLY when single motherhood was stigmatized. Divorced mothers were not generally stigmatized as "single mothers" because they were (usually) married at the time of birth.

=================================

"RE: drugs

"A drug itself is just as addictive legal or not. That was my point. Of course you are right about cost, prohibition, etc..."

>>>>>

So you agree then, drugs are LESS "damaging" legalized than criminalized?

=================================

"Re: what's best for society.

"Relating this point back to Stossel's theme and Unca Alby's point, it is conservatives (and, especially, libertarians) who believe that their morality should not be legislated. .."

>>>>>

Half right. Libertarians, correct.

Conservatives? Have you READ these boards!?

Conservatives are ALL ABOUT legislating morality -- the war on drugs; supporting laws against fornication, sodomy, prostitution, gambling... purchasing alcohol on Sundays... making sure that gays can't get "married"; banning the sale and/or possession of sex toys; making damned sure that adult stores and nudie bars cannot open and operate in certain areas; and etcetera.

True. Conservatives don't want to have their morality dictated TO them -- but many sure as h3ll want THEIR morality dictated to everyone else!

=================================

"... But if I tell you I fully support our invasion of Iraq, and think we should wipe out Iran's nuclear weapons program next, by whatever pre-emptive means necessary, that will probably change your mind."

>>>>>

Nope. You're mistaking me for a Libertarian (capital el). =)

It is my, personal opinion that the Libertarian (capital el) Party has failed to properly take the libertarian philosophy to it's logical conclusion which is logically inconsistent and, therefore, intellectually dishonest.

MassLiberal, yeah,
you've got great freedoms, I'm sure.

How big did you say your gun collection is?

"Big Govt. Conservative" = oxymoron
Maybe we should honor Aaron Burr for busting a cap in Mr. Hamilton's hide, cutting short his career, and preventing him from inflicting further damage at an early and vulnerable stage of the US' development. Hate to say it, but it appears to be so.

Best line in the piece: " Why are pundits and politicians so eager to use force against others?"

Hear hear. You don't see "liberals" (another oxymoronic term for totalitarians) trying to implement their agendas thru purely voluntary means. At some point, someone is going to decline to be fleeced and burdened. Oh no, they know best & must get hold of the coercive apparatus of government to inflict their superior 'vision of the anointed' upon us. True conservatives, by limiting the scope of government & its coercive power, ipso facto limit the costs & damage inflicted upon us by these self-appointed elitists and their dependent gimme clients.

Hamilton
Lalo is right. Stossel and Brooks just don't understand Hamilton. Hamilton was for business, but I don't think he advocated any of the special favors that Stossel sees. Jefferson was an idiot. He was against business, mostly because he didn't understand it. When the price his plantation was getting for tobacco went down, Jefferson blamed the middle-men in England.

Hamilton and Madison did their best to put restraints in the Constitution against mob rule. It worked for a hundred years or so, but now what we have is mob rule. I think we have to admit that our democracy just doesn't work anymore. It is degrading into socialism.

Drug Addiction - Legal or Not
Actually, saying that drug addiction is same whether it's legal or not is also false.

As it so happens, in a black market, there is no oversight, public or private, that is commonplace in an open market. As a result, there's little to guarantee quality. Drugs are very often diluted with poisons which render similar highs, but a lower lethal dosage. 100% pure heroin has a very low rate of actually killing anyone -- no more than a handful have died from that -- but the poisons it is typically cut with in the illegal black market *DO* kill people on a regular basis.

If the quality of your stuff is bad, what can you do about it? You can't tell the cops, and you can't organize a boycott. (I have a calendar filled with stories about stupid criminals, and there's two or three in there where a junkie got some inferior drugs and tried getting the government to do something about it.)

Every time I hear about somebody dying from a drug overdose, I want to *scream* -- WAS IT PURE DRUGS OR CUT WITH POISON? They never tell you that. It's a very critical piece of information. If it's cut with poison, well no wonder the person died.

It's similar (once again) to Prohibition when people often made wood alcohol instead of grain alcohol, because it was easier to get. Wood alcohol DOES KILL. Normal alcohol can kill you also, but most people will get so drunk they'll pass out before they have a chance to take a lethal dose. The same isn't true with wood alcohol.

Wood alcohol will also take your sight away, which was the hooch-drinker's signal that he'd drank too much. Hence the term, "blind drunk".

None of these problems exist anymore now that alcohol is legal. Similarly, if drugs were made legal, we'd see far fewer ER visits for drug OD's.
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