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Wednesday, May 23, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Many Myths of Ethanol
by John Stossel
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No doubt about it, if there were a Miss Energy Pageant, Miss Ethanol would win hands down. Everyone loves ethanol.

"Ramp up the availability of ethanol," says Hillary Clinton.

"Ethanol makes a lot of sense," says John McCain.

"The economics of ethanol make more and more sense," says Mitt Romney.

"We've got to get serious about ethanol," says Rudolph Giuliani.

And the media love ethanol. "60 Minutes" called it "the solution."

Clinton, Romney, Barack Obama and John Edwards not only believe ethanol is the elixir that will give us cheap energy, end our dependence on Middle East oil sheiks, and reverse global warming, they also want you and me -- as taxpayers -- to subsidize it.

When everyone in politics jumps on a bandwagon like ethanol, I start to wonder if there's something wrong with it. And there is. Except for that fact that ethanol comes from corn, nothing you're told about it is true. As the Cato Institute's energy expert Jerry Taylor said on a recent "Myths" edition of "20/20," the case for ethanol is based on a baker's dozen myths.

A simple question first. If ethanol's so good, why does it need government subsidies? Shouldn't producers be eager to make it, knowing that thrilled consumers will reward them with profits?

But consumers won't reward them, because without subsidies, ethanol would cost much more than gasoline.

The claim that using ethanol will save energy is another myth. Studies show that the amount of energy ethanol produces and the amount needed to make it are roughly the same. "It takes a lot of fossil fuels to make the fertilizer, to run the tractor, to build the silo, to get that corn to a processing plant, to run the processing plant," Taylor says.

And because ethanol degrades, it can't be moved in pipelines the way that gasoline is. So many more big, polluting trucks will be needed to haul it.

More bad news: The increased push for ethanol has already led to a sharp increase in corn growing -- which means much more land must be plowed. That means much more fertilizer, more water used on farms and more pesticides.

This makes ethanol the "solution"?

But won't it at least get us unhooked from Middle East oil? Wouldn't that be worth the other costs? Another myth. A University of Minnesota study shows that even turning all of America's corn into ethanol would meet only 12 percent of our gasoline demand. As Taylor told an energy conference last March, "For corn ethanol to completely displace gasoline consumption in this country, we would need to appropriate all cropland in the United States, turn it completely over to corn-ethanol production, and then find 20 percent more land on top of that for cultivation."

OK, but it will cut down on air pollution, right? Wrong again. Studies indicate that the standard mixture of 90 percent ethanol and 10 percent gasoline pollutes worse than gasoline.

Well, then, the ethanol champs must be right when they say it will reduce greenhouse gases and reverse global warming.

Nope. "Virtually all studies show that the greenhouse gases associated with ethanol are about the same as those associated with conventional gasoline once we examine the entire life cycle of the two fuels," Taylor says.

Surely, ethanol must be good for something. And here we finally have a fact. It is good for something -- or at least someone: corn farmers and processors of ethanol, such as Archer Daniels Midland, the big food processor known for its savvy at getting subsidies out of the taxpayers.

And it's good for vote-hungry presidential hopefuls. Iowa is a key state in the presidential-nomination sweepstakes, and we all know what they grow in Iowa. Sen. Clinton voted against ethanol 17 times until she started running for president. Coincidence?

"It's no mystery that people who want to be president support the corn ethanol program," Taylor says. "If you're not willing to sacrifice children to the corn god, you will not get out of the Iowa primary with more than one percent of the vote, Right now the closest thing we have to a state religion in the United States isn't Christianity. It's corn."

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Corn
Maybe if the price of tortillas triple in price here, the illegals will go home. Viva ethanol si, no tortillas.
Mrs BUBBA would sell out her mother to be President.
The sad part about this, the limpazz Repubs could have voted to drill in Alaska when they had the House and Senate. Oil off the coast of Florida, and CUBA is drilling for it. DUMB, DUMB, Dumb, I've never seen politicans so Dumb. We will become a third world country with all the Freaken ILLEGALS, and CUBA will be a modern country from all the freaken oil off our coast. We deserve this sh.t, allowing the libs and spinless Repubs vote down drilling.

Can't Wait - - -
- - - it's inevitable that somebody is going to come on posting about how ethanol is going to save the WORLD, how well it's working in Brazil (at 100% taxpayer expense), etc., nevermind all the facts against it.

For sloo -- on Cuba
quoth Cuba: "CUBA will be a modern country from all the freaken oil off our coast."

Not a chance.

If all it took was oil, then Mexico would be a modern country, as would 90% of the Middle East. Mexico would be building a wall to keep US out. But they're not -- because having a valuable commodity does not a modern economy make.

Thermodynamics and Growth
I've seen a lot of (justifiable) criticism of ethanol subsidies by conservative commentators, e.g. this article and articles published by outlets like the National Review. However, none of them seem to take the step of asking, well, if ethanol doesn't work, what might?

I suppose its a misplaced faith in the marketplace, i.e. they don't need to contemplate what might be a superior alternative to ethanol because "the market" will figure it out for them.

None of them consider that there may be no way to produce the amount of energy, let alone increasing amounts of energy, that we have become accustomed to, once demand for fossil energy outstrips supply for good. In other words, there may be no cheap air travel in the near future. No "summer driving season." No plastic patio furniture shipped from China and sold at Wal-Mart. At least not for the masses.

This is potentially a very momentus change in our economy and way of life, and yet nobody is discussing it and very few even see it as a risk. Especially conservatives, who think that the market will solve all or that drilling in Alaska will free us from imported oil, even though all it will do is deplete our natural resources that much faster (anyone who would quibble with the notion that oil can deplete quickly should look at the history of domestic oil production, which peaked 100 years after it began and has been in decline ever since, and then come back and make a comment).

I question whether it is smart to build an economy that is utterly dependent on continued growth and debt when, based on the expeience of the 1970s, growth may be problematic if we run into serious oil supply issues. It could be better to consolidate what we've got and make it sustainable (read: no more immigration).

I am sure others disagree.

For Monty - - Faith in the Marketplace
quoth Monty: "I suppose its a misplaced faith in the marketplace, i.e. they don't need to contemplate what might be a superior alternative to ethanol because "the market" will figure it out for them."

Well if History is any guide, taking a score of the Unfettered Free Markets team against Socialist Planned Economies team, the score would be UFM 100, SPE, 0.

So I daresay you might find it difficult to find any serious example where "faith" in the marketplace was "misplaced."

Contrary to Monty...
...the day in which "the amount of energy, [including the] increasing amounts of energy, that we have become accustomed to" gets set further and further into the future as time passes and scientific knowledge increases. Even petrochemical reserves are being proven more and more available as explorations proceed, and that's without the exploitation of other energy sources too "politically incorrect" for various governments to allow.

Like wonderfully "carbon neutral" nuclear fusion, for instance, where all the wastes are compact and easily confined, and which has proven - with half-century-old technology - to yield less release of radiation per megawatt than any sort of coal-burning powerplant that can possibly be designed (it's the thorium in the bituminous stuff, kids).

Not to mention the carcinogens in easily leached fly ash and stack gasses resulting from the combustion of coal. But let's not completely recap *The Health Hazards of NOT Going Nuclear* (Petr Beckmann, 1976). Suffice it to say that predictions of the "Club of Rome" variety are never uttered except by technological and economic illiterates.

That aside for the moment, the observation of a true "bipartisan consensus" on the supposed salvation to be found in corn-derived ethanol motor vehicle fuel (har-de-har-har!) demonstrates that professional politicians on both sides of the ornate cesspit we call the Congress seem to think that the laws of nature (particularly the Laws of Thermodynamics) are statutes that they can repeal according to whatever the political polls prove to be the latest gut rumble among that minority of the populace who are bright enough to find their way to the voting booths on Election Day and stupid enough to think that the Republicrat/DemaGOP machine offers them anything in the way of a real choice.

Anyone for amending the Law of Gravity just a little, though? I've been putting on a bit of weight lately, and it'd be awfully nice to see the scales rotating in the opposite direction for a change.
--

Stossel is right
on all points but one. The most common mix is 10 percent ethanol, and 90 percent gasoline, though there are some others, including one that is 85 percent ethanol. It takes serious modification to get your car to run on that one, though.

Politicians, ADM, and corn farmers love this stuff, but the tortilla makers down in Mexico are not happy with the new high cost of corn.

Politicians
They all s**k!!!

One minor tidbit not mentiond so far is that the wonder fuel has abour 60% of the heat energy found in a gallon of gasoline. That means fuel mileage falls in direct proportion the amount of this junk in the fuel sold at the pump. The current 10% mix costs me at least 1 mpg in my small car.

I pay taxes to support the production of this corrosive fluid, I am forced to buy it, and I have to return more often to get more...what a deal!!

As for the declining supply of petroleum, the enviros prevent drilling in Alaska and off our shores. Some hope lies in liquid coal and the enormous amount of oil locked in US and Canadian shales if the moonbats allow unfettered exploitation.

The market will determine the correct answer if allowed to do so.

What a scam!
If I had a little less self-control, I'd print out this article and staple it to Pennsylvania Gov. "Fast Eddie" Rendell's forehead the next time he forces more ethanol into our gasoline supply.

Ethanol is an absurd fuel
Ethanol = C2H5OH. As you can see, it has an oxygen atom. That means it's already partially burned, in a sense. So this is energy that can't be released in internal combustion engines. No wonder it has far fewer mpg.

The -OH in ethanol just loves water, H-OH. So it can't be transported easily without picking up large amounts of moisture. Just what we need for a fuel--NOT!

It is also impossible to distill ethanol beyond 96% purity. That is, without adding something like benzene, a highly carcinogenic liquid. So to make fuel-quality ethanol, it is necessary to use molecular sieves to remove the water, adding to the cost. And as above, it's almost impossible to keep ethanol dry.

Talk About Energy Myths
Look, Unca Alby, if that IS your real name (joke), you have the typical knee-jerk reaction of many at this site, which is that if someone says "the market" may have a blindspot you assume that that someone is necessarily advocating socialism or some other satanic cult. The problem is that the market cannot provide everything. One thing it cannot provide, thus far, is a magical source of limitless energy. Nobody here can point to any energy source that is a GUARANTEED, or even a reasonably probable, replacement for nonrenewable fossil fuels. Some simply cannot be, e.g. ethanol is simply too faulty and could never be produced in large enough amounts - at least not if you also want to eat. Given what is riding on our ability to continue energy flowing throughout our economy, I'd say it is plain dumb to assume that something will just come along when we need it to. The market will figure something out - it just may not be anything that the majority of people can take advantage of (e.g. alternative jet fuel that raises the price of a LAX-NYC plane fare to $2000 wouldn't be of much help to most Americans, but it is a "solution").

And SJ Doc, well, I have to disagree:

"Even petrochemical reserves are being proven more and more available as explorations proceed."

ME: This is true, but let me ask you...what is your point? Are you not aware that most of the world's largest oil fields are in decline right now? Squeezing a few more drops out at the tail end isn't exactly going to save our goose.

"Like wonderfully "carbon neutral" nuclear fusion, for instance, where all the wastes are compact and easily confined, and which has proven - with half-century-old technology - to yield less release of radiation per megawatt than any sort of coal-burning powerplant that can possibly be designed (it's the thorium in the bituminous stuff, kids)."

ME: Unless you know something I don't, nuclear fusion is not presently a viable means of producing energy and nobody knows if it ever will be. Yet another bet on an unproven and possibly unavailable energy source to solve a proven energy crisis.

"Suffice it to say that predictions of the "Club of Rome" variety are never uttered except by technological and economic illiterates."

ME: Right. Just because some group of people decades ago were wrong in their predictions of disaster we have nothing to be concerned with. Because it's the height of economic illiteracy to suggest that infinite growth may be problematic in a finite world.

But then...you actually appear to recognize the harsh reality of the laws of thermodynamics??? Why isn't that reflected in the rest of your comment?


SJ Doc - Clarification
If you were suggesting that oil is being discovered in ever greater amounts, that is just plain incorrect.

If you were suggesting that already proven reserves are being exploited more fully with better technology, then yes that is true, and that is the point I addressed above.

Monty redux
To my earlier remark:

"Even petrochemical reserves are being proven more and more available as explorations proceed."

...Monty says:

"ME: This is true, but let me ask you...what is your point? Are you not aware that most of the world's largest oil fields are in decline right now? Squeezing a few more drops out at the tail end isn't exactly going to save our goose."

...to which there is the charming observation that those "world's largest oil fields [which] are in decline right now" are in greatest part the ones under the prayer rugs of the otherwise entirely worthless Islamic world.

Such depletion is a consummation devoutly to be wished, no?

As for my "nuclear fusion" typo, I must beg pardon. When speaking of "half-century-old technology," the sensible and technically literate reader could not have interpreted my meaning as anything other than a reference to nuclear *FISSION*. Sorry 'bout that, Monty.

As for the unavailing MSM wailing and thrashing over gaudy "predictions of disaster" perpetually being pontificated by the same kinds of cement-headed "social scientists" generation after generation, without more than a deceitful handwave or two in the direction of unprejudiced observation, evidence-based analysis, or rigorously reasoned conclusions, what gives you to hold that the bilge in which we're now so malodorously being spattered over "global climate change" and the supposedly catastrophic depletion of energy resources isn't of a perfect whole with the smelly garbage so solemnly vomited forth by the Club of Rome back in 1972?

As for "the harsh reality of the [L]aws of [T]hermodynamics," kiddo, back before I got physiology and biochemitry and pharmacology all stuck up in my grill, I had to pass inorganic and organic chemistry as well as Physics 101 and 102. Life as a pre-med major, y'know.

Not to mention that those same Laws of Thermodynamics largely explain such phenomena as the development and persistence of resistance traits among populations of pathogenic microorganisms. HIV-1 antiretroviral resistance mutations (for example) impose a well-documented metabolic cost adversely affecting the organism's reproductive capability, otherwise *every* newly-infected patient would be presenting with treatment-resistant strains of the bug.

But, of course, you knew that already, didn'tcha?
--

John Got It Wrong - Part 1
There are two problems with John's analysis that I'd like to comment on. This first post will cover the supply/demand issues he notes...

On the surface, it might seem that there is no way to supply all the ethanol needed to replace gasoline, but this assumes that transportation remains firmly connected to gasoline as an energy medium. But pluggable hybrid electric vehicles PHEV's are on the short term horizon. GM has committed to this technology - the Chevy Volt - is due in 2010... This vehicle will be able to travel 20-40 miles on electric only. While it might seem like this would be unacceptable performance, when you pair this with an internal combustion engine (ICE) for range, you find that it becomes feasible. Since most travel is in commutes in the 20-40 mile range, it is possible to fuel your vehicle off the electric grid instead of from gasoline.

Charging the vehicle at night allows the grid's excess nighttime capacity to be efficiently used, and could replace much of the fuel used in an ICE. You can conceivably reduce liquid fuel use by 90% !!!

Further, if you assume that the ICE in this instance is no longer a gasoline engine, but one that burns E85, then things change even more radically. With the reduced demand for liquid fuel, it is possible that we could fuel most cars with the ethanol WE ALREADY PRODUCE... In the norhteast, our gasoline is already 10% ethanol... now we would burn primarily that supply, mixed with a little gasoline. And since the gasoline use would be so much reduced because of the PHEV, we could supply all the gasoline from domestic sources!!!

Of course, we would be burning much more electricty in our cars, and we would likely need to produce more of this. So we would probably burn more domestic coal in new clean burning coal plants, and perhaps we could increase our nuclear generating capacity in the long term.

Overall, this strategy could produce a radical shift in energy use for transportation in the next 20 years. Decoupling gasoline (oil) from transportation is the key, and the combination of PHEV and Ethanol (and don't forget Biodiesel) is the 1-2 knock out punch for the middle east...

John got it wrong - Part 2
This post will be shorter, because I'm pressed for time, but John also noted that ethanol takes more energy to produce than we get...

This is very debatable, and very hard to calculate. But John's analysis was simplistic and one sided. He talks about the cost of tractors and silos... but doesn't acknowledge the cost of tankers, drills, and pipelines... The "wheel to well" cost verses the "wheel to field" cost is what needs to be analyzed.

When you do this kind of analysis, you get a much more balanced picture. You also find that you ethanol, while still more expensive at $60 a barrel, becomes a better alternative at $90 per barrel... at the end of the day, the assumptions in the calculations are what makes the analyses hard to figure.

So a more balanced approach should have been taken, rather than trying to mislead everyone.


And ''coolmoose'' bollixed it royally
F'rinstance, he said:

"On the surface, it might seem that there is no way to supply all the ethanol needed to replace gasoline, but this assumes that transportation remains firmly connected to gasoline as an energy medium. But pluggable hybrid electric vehicles PHEV's are on the short term horizon. GM has committed to this technology - the Chevy Volt - is due in 2010... This vehicle will be able to travel 20-40 miles on electric only. While it might seem like this would be unacceptable performance, when you pair this with an internal combustion engine (ICE) for range, you find that it becomes feasible. Since most travel is in commutes in the 20-40 mile range, it is possible to fuel your vehicle off the electric grid instead of from gasoline."

Properly speaking, "coolmoose" should have focused first upon how transportation in the world at large (not just in America) is likely to remain "firmly connected" to *FUEL SUPPLIES*, not just the gasoline fraction of crude oil.

In this failing he betrays a telling ignorance of the technologies associated with both internal and external combustion engines over the past couple of centuries, including (for example) producer gas (also known as "coal gas") internal combustion conversions used widely as expedient propulsion powerplants among the civilian populations in petroleum-starved Mitteleuropa during World War II.

He further proves his lack of qualification to speak sensibly on this subject when he extolls the supposed virtues of "pluggable hybrid electric vehicles," which one supposes he would like to see forced upon the population of the planet (or is it just to be rammed down the throats of those of us in these United States?) upon the premise that the electrical energy sucked up and spun out by these "PHEV" microsubcompacts (forget about medium- and heavy-lift trucks, children) will come without costs - economic *and* environmental - that he either glosses over or witlessly ignores.

Just what is the source of the energy coming through the plug from the "electric grid" into these PHEV's batteries, hm? What hideously dirty, deadly-dangerous-to-extract, and ecologically catastrophic fossil fuel is burned to create most of the electrical energy in the world, "coolmoose"?

Yeah, coal. Bituminous ("soft") coal for the greatest part, shedding chemical carcinogens in its ash residues, putting megatons of carbon-containing gases into the atmosphere, and killing or maiming thousands of people all over the world not only in the mines but also in the processes of loading it aboard railroad cars, transporting it across the countryside, and unloading it at the powerplants that depend upon it.

And that's leaving out the wonderful clouds of soot that blanket the cities of "developing" countries like Communist China. Hey, nonny! Let's hear it for "pluggable hybrid electric vehicles", salvation on wheels.

For that tiny minority of wealthy people who don't have to travel any sort of distances, with any sort of cargo, and who can afford them, of course. The rest of us will just have to make do with "biodiesel," I suppose.

One last thing about "coolmoose" is his afterthought about how "your ethanol, while still more expensive at $60 a barrel, becomes a better alternative [when gasoline prices hit] $90 per barrel."

Er, no. What's the energy yield of a gallon of gasoline versus the energy yield upon combustion of a gallon of even the purest possible distillate of intensely hydrophilic ethyl alcohol, hm? What's the honest-to-Boyle "bang for the buck" to be gotten out of regular unleaded versus the best 180-proof corn squeezins' distillate with which you could fill your tank in terms of actually getting from Point A to Point B?

Corn liquor is *not* going to be genuinely cheaper in cost (monetarily or thermodynamically) than petrochemical distillates now or at any time in the next couple of centuries. Even with government support programs (sucked invisibly out of your favorite pocket as well as my own) to disguise the inherent inefficiency of a corn ethanol fueling system, the "coolmoose" premise is ineluctably diddled.

--
"In the department of economy, an act, a habit, an institution, a law, gives birth not only to an effect, but to a series of effects. Of these effects, the first only is immediate; it manifests itself simultaneously with its cause - it is seen. The others unfold in succession - they are not seen: it is well for us, if they are foreseen. Between a good and a bad economist this constitutes the whole difference - the one takes account of the visible effect; the other takes account both of the effects which are seen, and also of those which it is necessary to foresee. Now this difference is enormous, for it almost always happens that when the immediate consequence is favourable, the ultimate consequences are fatal, and the converse. Hence it follows that the bad economist pursues a small present good, which will be followed by a great evil to come, while the true economist pursues a great good to come, at the risk of a small present evil"

.. -- Frédéric Bastiat, *That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen* (1850)

Ethanol
Ethanol is loved by those who profit mightily due its use and its overly generous subsidies.
It is also loved by politicians who use it as readily available (non)solution to America's addiction to oil, no matter which part of the world it comes from.

Anyone who imagines that ethanol will solve any problems has never looked at its cost and its usefulness.

Stossel Using DEMOCRAT/LIBERAL Tactics?!
I am REALLY disappointed in the weakness of this article.

Ethanol has NEVER been positioned by the REAL debaters of energy as a complete "solution" to oil dependance, so Stossel - get real! Anyone who makes this claim, or says this claim is being universally made (Stossel, and half you bashers posting comments) is acting totally juvenile. It is *PART* of the solution, and is always posed as such.

Again, the juvenile approach is made by comparing a full life-cycle pollution analysis of Ethanol (production-to-use) to just the use of fuel - LAME! Not to mention that the "life-cycle" study being utilized for Ethanol even goes so far as to include the cost of building tractors - duh!

And the most EASILY disputed claim, Ethanol pollutes the same or more - FALSE! TAKE NOTICE BECAUSE THIS IS A FACT! Air quality has improved in EVERY CITY, COUNTY AND STATE which has switched from straight gasoline use to ETHANOL BLENDED FUEL fuel. A bold statement for sure, because those are REAL WORLD RESULTS and can easily be verified! Take it to the bank!

No doubt, Stossel was motivated by the recent report released by Jacobson of Stanford University and published in the online edition of Journal of Environmental Science & Technology. True to it's Cornell predecessor's form, it is easily discredited and shows a blatant selectivity for comparison of Ethanol to fuel, particularly the pollution footprint of Ethanol.

Ethanol is subsidized, and that is indeed bad, but don't resort to DEMOCRAT/LIBERAL tactics of lying and misinformation to try and achieve a goal (removing a subsidy). Conservatives are better than that.

Lynne-Cornell Study Long Ago Discredited
Lynne, you like many others are getting too excited over an EXTREMIST'S study that was LONG AGO discredited.
But like any other Urban Myth Spam, it lives on and on...

Ethanol critics such as Cornell University’s Dr. David Pimentel, who argue that ethanol production uses more energy than it yields, typically select data and use assumptions that are outdated. While virtually all analyses refute Pimentel’s conclusions, a 2002 Michigan State University study notes several discrepancies in Pimentel’s methodology and conclusions:
• 1992 corn yields and energy inputs were used. Today’s yields have greatly increased and the use of pesticides and fertilizers has gone down.
• Figures for the energy used to manufacture ethanol data were from 1979.
• Irrigation energy costs are included for all corn used in ethanol manufacturing, though only 15% of U.S. corn is irrigated.
• Distillers dried grains are not used as an energy credit.

Dan Walters provides a similar perspective. According to Walters, a University of Nebraska-Lincoln soil scientist, these reports continue to rely on outdated data. “The problem is that it’s all old data,” says Walters. His claim is that the negative energy numbers are derived from the data collected in the late 1980’s and early 1990s.

So, Lynne, shall we compare 2007 Ethanol to, say, 1970 Oil data? That fool Cornell professor makes me think YES!

In 2001 General Motors commissioned a study to assess the “well to wheel” impact of a variety of traditional and alternative fuels in an effort to assess their complete lifecycle, energy consumption, and greenhouse gas emissions. That study compared 15 propulsion technologies and 75 different fuel pathways.

The results were that ethanol reduces greenhouse gas emissions compared to conventional gasoline. Ten percent blends using corn-derived ethanol provided a 20 percent reduction, while biomass-derived ethanol would result in a near 100 percent reduction.

I think I like Ethanol as PART OF THE SOLUTION, thank you.

Sorry Monty,
Those of us who favor the market tend to remember things like Julian Simon's bet with Paul Ehrlich over commodities. Somehow the prices, and "all resources are now depleted" dates kept increasing with time. The minable reserves in the Alberta, Canada oilsands are at their highest levels in history. Why? Because technology keeps getting applied to the problem (making for better recoveries) and because people who want to make money go out and look for more reserves so they can.... make money.

The invisible hand is alive and well, and government shackles aren't a good interference.

I'm off to work, the coal won't mine itself!

Something doesn't add up
If ethanol is so great why do we have to subsidise it? If it is so important why is there such a high duty on imported alcohol to make ethanol?

The new E85 is cheaper at the pump but you get less miles per gallon using it; ethanol is a less efficient product than gasoline. In the long run it is more expensive to use the less expensive product. You get less bang for the buck, pun intended, in the combustion chamber.

Why is corn the only product that can be used to make alcohol for ethanol? Can't other plant products be fermented and distilled for use in ethanol? If the demand for corn is rising are we still subsidising corn farmers? If the demand for ethanol is rising why are we subsidising corporation that make alcohol for ethanol?

What about the world's hungry? Aren't we taking food out of their mouths in the name of greed and over reaction? I always thought we were a compasionate people who worried about the world's hungry, or is that only a campaign slogan to get votes?

The real conspiracy
The real conspiracy here is being planned by big oil. After we consume all the oil in other countries big oil will start drilling in our "protected" areas and start selling it to the world for ludicrous prifits.

CORN???
Corn is about the stupidest idea for ethanol going. It's a big business only bonanza!!! Biomass ethanol can be the answer. 200 gallons of fuel from a acre of corn or 1000 gallons from an acre of switchgrass or other crops. Tobacco can make 180 tons of biomass per acre and maybe a ton of ethanol. BTW I'm a conservative and a farmer.

prifit
What's a prifit? I'm hoping little oil can gain a foot hold and make a prifit too!

Stossel is mostly correct
Ethanol has problems, most of which can be addressed, but are costly. Bottom line is, oil will remain dominant until it becomes so scarce that alternatives become a feasible substitute. That may or may not happen in our lifetime.

Stossel does overlook the possibility that corn will either be replaced as the ethanol feedstock, or be bio-engineered to produce vastly higher fuel yields. (There are several crops that have higher energy yields.) This, of course remains less likely as long as we continue to subsidize the inefficient production of corn based ethanol.

Ethanol can become a viable energy source, but Stossel is correct that they current program of subsidized inefficiencies is not likely to produce anything but campaign contributions.

Prifit
I apologize. My flying fingers got ahead of my slow mind.

Yo,you guys...
...please wake me when you can fuel my car with 100% seawater!Plenty of that in the great Atlantic and Pacific.We can pipe the water to flyover country and the US will be energy independant at last!

Look,as long as we are dreaming,dream big! The US government can finance it.They have plenty of money!

Same old magic pill chase
Stossel (and most of the rest of the media for that matter) continue to chase a magic pill in trying to find immediate relief from fossil fuel dependency. The good part of that is that it makes identifying the problem children easy: They're the ones chasing the magic pill.

Understand this thing (and make it clear to the wannabe presidents): We have to find a combination of energy alternatives to fossil fuel. It doesn't make any difference how you parse the words and numbers: We’re gong to run out of petroleum. Quit griping about the Islamic world and start dealing with reality. ANWAR is not a solution. It is at best a short-term remedy.

We're always going to have internal combustion engines, but we can't afford to have them in every application that requires horsepower and torque. The bulk of those applications are going to have to use an energy source that is not based on fossil fuels.

Ethanol is only part of the solution. There isn't a magic pill on this. Corn is a sorry proposal. It works to buy votes in agricultural states and looks like an effort. There are other ethanol technologies.

Electric and hybrid cars? The technology is there, but there isn't sufficient political will or integrity to force the issue in the corporate boardrooms.

Hydrogen fuel cell technology is a fraud foisted on the public by a lot of people over a long time to get government subsidies. You can't carry enough hydrogen in your vehicle to make it do what you expect it to. Safety is an issue here. You could call a car wreck a "Hindenburg."

Current nuclear power technology is part of the picture but, although the waste is solid and compact it also lasts 10,000 years! If you think this is not an issue, you've forgotten the Yucca Mountain fights. There are also security and diplomatic complications.

Fission sounds good, but so far it's not workable. This isn't happening without government subsidy either so deal with it.

Speaking of government subsidy; It's part of the solution, no matter how you cut it. Either we have the subsidies or we do not. Right now, we're subsidizing everything from Americans who won't work (the reason we have the fraudulent immigration proposal in congress right now) to multi-billion dollar defense contractors. I don't like it. You don't like it. Read on.

Conservative political power in this country has been traditionally owned and operated by big business as is exemplified in this wretched administration. The matter is of considerable political importance as we're working on the next presidential election cycle. Either we get real concerning this or give it up to another Clinton or an Obama. The conservative party has to represent the interests of a “Curmudgeon” from Jackson County Kansas the same way it represents those of Halliburton or it has no legitimacy. Enough party politics here!

Wind and sea power as well as solar cell power production are also parts of the equation. Quit griping about the view of the skyline. At the rate things are going you won't be able to see it through the air pollution anyway.

The biggest part of the problem is political hype. I suggest to all who read this that you look at what's going on in the articles. If it is all negative and focused on finding blame, toss it. It's simply more problem children out chasing magic pills.

Curmudgeon

Wrong product.
We have been against ethanol since the get-go. Time and
again it has proved to buy us virtually nothing in the
way of energy saving, but admittedly it does have the
potential to make ADM a very rich companpy. Or I should
say, a very richer company. I don't know what it will do
with the farmer. I suspect very little.

But now I seriously am against it because their is rumor
that they are building a stinky plant in my home down and
I will down wind. Ethanol has got to go.

SJ_Doc... Wow!!!
I haven't been drummed down like that in a long while, nor have I seen a more eloquent response on the web in an even longer time! Bravo!

Some quibbles:

You used energy yield to explain why the oil price per barrel argument was not correct. But you didn't properly link the two... I get that ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline. That is why mileage drops about 15-20% when you use E85. But so what? According to your argument, the entire Indy Car racing sport is as stupid as I am, as they run their 200+ mph cars on ethanol. Any way, it doesn't change the fact that as oil becomes more expensive, ethanol becomes more of a competitor. At $90 a barrel, gasoline moves to a price that makes ethanol more cost efficient per btu of energy... and that is with today's technology, not tomorrow's...

Electricity: You've assumed that we will generate more and more electricity from coal... I expressly endorsed more nuclear power to help power the PHEV's I advocate. The point is that there are innumerable ways of generating electricity, from many renewable and non-renewable sources. Decoupling oil from transporation allows us a substitution that largely doesn't exist today for transportation. I can heat my home with coal, oil, natural gas, solar, wind, and nuclear power (via the grid). But I can only run my car on oil based products today. That's the point of the PHEV - separate the energy source from the use...

Size of Vehicles: Actually, there is no reason that hybrid electric vehicles can't be any size you like. In fact, the first PHEV were not cars, they were TRAINS!!! A PHEV locomotive can be used efficiently in a rail yard, where the train makes many starts and stops...


I am a farmer
I raise corn. A lot of it. The Lynne-Cornell study is incorrect. The cost associated with production are grossly overstated by at least 100%. I know because this is what I do for a living.

If ethanol doesn't reduce pollution then why are cities mandating it's use? Could it be that the brown clouds over their cities are smaller and appear fewer days?

There is a market for ethanol when gasoline is $2.25 per gallon wholesale. There is not a market when gasoline is $.89 per gallon. Market forces do play a roll.Even whithout the subsidy ethanol is close to being competetive ($3.00 per gal. gas will take care of that). Also please do not confuse the price of ethanol with the cost of production.

Farmers are about 2% of the population. We have little political clout simply becaus there are so fow of us. As for ADM, I do not know how much clout they have, but I don't think ethanol production has much weight on their bottom line. Food production is still their main focus.

In the future please talk to people who work in the areas of "myth" before you talk to a professor of some university, (who might have an agenda) before you write myths of your own. Ethanol is not perfect, but for now it is better than what we had before (MTBE). Ask California.

The Many Myths of Ethanol
I think you are creating new myths. As far as reduced gas mileage, that is a myth. I get the same mileage with gasahol as I do with plain regular.You must be getting paid by the oil companies.

Pollution? Air is cleaner
Curdmudgeon writes that air pollution is worsening. Wrong. According to the EPA, air quality in the USA has gotten ever better.

to farmerjoe
Hey Joe, do you even see the irony in your post? You speak of professors with an agenda yet you yourself admit you grow corn. So of course you stand to gain nothing from government subsidies and explosions in the sale of corn, rignt? Sorry Joe but it is hard to take your post seriously when you stand to gain so much from a fifty fold increase in corn sales.

Your post is about as credible as that of a Mobil CEO telling us we need to tripple gas sales for the good of the nation.

Not THE Answer
Ethanol is not the answer to our long term energy challenges. It can, however, be a useful bridge strategy to lower our dependence on foreign oil. But that's all. There really is no magic bullet. Ultimately, I believe there will be a number of small strategies that, added together, will contribute to the overall solution to the problem.

Our Problem is Leftist Luddites
Let's see now. At last count there were a zillion different alternative energy sources these enviro-whacko, latter-day Luddites are freakin' out about. You name it, they got a problem with it - from coal, to shale, to oil, to wind power and right on up to nuclear fission. Tomorrow we could stumble upon a magical way to harness fusion in a totally pollution-free manner and this same crowd would find a million reasons whey we couldn't do THAT as well!

Oh, I'm nuts? I can see it now. We build a few enormous sea-water plants off the coast to suck in and separate hydrogen atoms to fuse - and lo and behold we kill few "endangered" fishies in the process and WHAMO! - can't do that! Get the picture? They've already started with the bird thing with respect to giant wind turbines which are about as environmentally neutral as one can get, and these things can generate significant energy in very remote areas well away from urban areas.

Harnessing tidal energy is next, and whatcha wanna bet they'll have similar objections to that once they come up with a workable plan - can anyone say "beach erosion?"


Refuting some of the refutations:
1) All of the largest known oil fields are in decline.

This is completely false. The largest sources of oil on the planet are not even being pumped right now, and are right here in the United States. You heard that right, we have more than 3 times more oil in the Green River Formation in states of Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming than in Saudi Arabia.

There are just two problems here, though:

a) The enviro-Nazis would rather we support Osama bin Laden by buying his oil than allow us to recover this oil, regardless of how the enviromental impact could be mitigated.

and b) It's in the form of shale oil, and costs a bit more than normal oil to recover.

The point is even if every other oil field on the planet were bled dry, we would still have enough oil to completely fuel the United States -- at current consumption rates -- for approximately 100 years JUST from the Green River Formation shale oil.

2) If you take into account the processing and transportation of oil, it too consumes more fuels than it produces, thus the argument that ethanol also consumes more energy to make than it produces is faulty.

This is 100% ridiculous. The processing and transportation of oil consumes a TINY fraction of what it produces. To think otherwise defies the laws of physics. The notion that somehow there could exist a system that consumes more energy than what they possibly could create, let alone actually EXPAND that system, is utter nonsense. Fuels MUST produce more energy than they consume to make, else the entire economy would come crashing to a halt because it would eventually get to the point were there isn't enough energy to produce the fuels that make said energy.

3) Ethanol can be made from other crops that are better choices than corn.

True. Sugar is a good choice but for one problem: it would cost far, far, FAR more to produce ethanol from sugar than corn because of the subsidies on sugar make sugar cost something like 6 times more here in the US than any other place on the planet.

But let's assume that we could ever get rid of the sugar subsidies. We still have the problems of it taking more energy to produce ethanol from sugar than that ethanol would itself produce, and that we can't produce enough sugar in the US to put any dent in the amount of oil consumption.

Some anti-Stossel argements are funny -
- - - almost. Hey, the first notation pretty much said it all, subsidies. If it were so danged good as an alternative or an additive, private industry would have been in the ethanol business YEARS ago......
Oh, Brasil's sugar ethanol is (1) more cost efficient and (2) more powerful than corn -- AND the "critics" seem to forget that Brasil found a huge amount of oil-type-OIL and is pumping same in sufficient quantities as to make it self sustaining in regard to fuel, okay?
I'm going back there again next month, obrigado, and will check prices, even though the field is still government-run.....
Yet, THE MAJOR POINT STILL IS: OUR SO-CALLED "LEADER" WAFFLES AROUND IN PONTIFICATING PABLUM PUKE (his State-of-the-Union crapola) WHILE HE'S AFRAID TO PUSH ANWR OR DRILLING IN THE GULF/OFFSHORE --- AND, LAST TIME I LOOKED, WASN'T FRANCE 70+% NUCLEAR? AND NORWAY/SWEDEN EVEN MORESO?
My God, our leadership is so lacking..... sad!

coolmoose:
Race cars use ethanol becuase it doesn't suffer premature detonantion at the ridiculous-in-the-real-world compression ratios and RPM needed for modern racing. That's why Top Fuel dragsters moved to alcohol fuel years before anyone else.

If your purpose is to drive from NY to LA in less than a day on specially built, super smooth Ultra Highways in vehicles costing about a million bucks, then pure ethanol is the perfect fuel for you.

Stossel hype
I trust VERY little that this guy Stossel puts out.
And as for the ones who say the oil is diminishing---well I worship the Creator God Who knew just how many people would be on this planet before it is all said and done and HE created enough oil, coal, and whatever energy soucres that would be needed. People keep on putting their trust in what man says, and ignore what God says--- well it will be reality soon enough that you all will see the truth.
God has our best interests in His mind--we need to connect with Him and seek His will--there lies the only true peace in this old world!!

ETHANOL PENALTY CLAUSE
I THE POLITICIAN WHO SPOKE UP FOR, VOTED FOR AND HELP INSTITUTE THE USE OF ETHANOL, WILL PUT MY REPUTATION ON THE LINE AND SUFFER THE PENALTY OF LAW FOR FALSIFYING INFORMATION AND PREYING ON THE PUBLIC TRUST.

HOW ABOUT THIS AS A STIPULATION FOR THE ELECTEES TO SIGN BEFORE CRYING OUT FOR THE USE OF ANOTHER MTBE PRODUCT.

Re:Bob
Do you see the irony of your comment?

You come down on Joe for being a corn farmer who receives subsidies.

Where do you think college profs get their funding? They live of the public teat. State and Federal funding.


RIDE A BUS!
Beowulfe, everything you say is true. If oil companies were allowed to drill on the basis of their geological data, we'd be swimming in the stuff. Untold eons ago, every single square foot of this entire planet was a tropical hothouse at one time or another producing vegetation and runaway plant growth, which in turn fed the earth's crust for the oil we now use. Even Antartica, that enormous chunk of ice and snow, was once a tropical jungle.

If we were to discover an enormous oil field there, one that dwarfed anything ever discovered, how long do you think it would take the enviro-whackos to come up with half a dozen reasons why we can't drill in that total wasteland? Maybe ten seconds?

Sir, no one can be this environmentally concerned, or this stupid. No, they have a political agenda, and if it were up to these enviro-Nazis we'd all be riding bicycles or crammed into buses and subways - the better to keep track of us and chart our every movement. Of course, we would pump just enough oil so that these socialists could keep THEIR Audis and Mercedes!

ETHANOL MY CLAVICLE !
Take it from an engineer, ethanol is no different when it comes to tradeoffs. No matter how you slice it in every case, physics, politics, marriage, finances, i.e., life in general you can't get something for nothing. Anyone that believes you can needs to get a grasp on reality.

short sighted wimps
Complaints about ethanol abound. Let's use shale oil... Just because it will cost more than current oil supplies and will go up in cost in the future and will run out in 100 years, it is the perfect solution. It will last our life times and our children can deal the the problem of no oil.

If you don't like ethanol, come up with a better fuel. Stossel partially quoted some of his sources to slam ethanol. Is it the be all and end all of fuel? NO, but it is the most cost effective alternative at the moment.

This is the nation that went from the earth to the moon in ten years, using slide-rulers. What have you done for your country besides throwing rocks at the efforts of others Mr. Stossel?

Iowa Primary' Role
I hate to deviate from the seemingly endless discussion on the pros and cons of ethanol, but Stossel also raises a point that (unless I missed it buried in an ethanol discussion) has so far been unaddressed: The primary system.

Stossel asserts that all the presidential contenders favor expanding the use of ethanol (and therefore the subsidies that attend that use) in no small part because they would not survive the Iowa primaries if they didn't.

Maybe it's time to get rid of the current primary system. I suppose it made sense when candidates and delegates had to ride from one end of the country to the other on horseback to the national convention, but today with all our electronic media it makes no sense to me at all.

Another flaw of the primary system, as I see it, is that only registered party members can vote in most of them. This forces the candidates to pander to the extreme pole of their "base" to get nominated, and then move to the center to get elected.

It makes more sense to me to have a national primary. Email or text message or otherwise electronically transmit your vote for whomever you believe is the best person for the position. This would force candidates to start from a central position and avoid pandering to the extremists at either pole.

This would also prevent the major parties from locking out third party candidates, since if the primaries were national and electronic, there would be no need for the petitions currently required in many states.

I'm certain many will defend the old/current system, but we as a nation are constantly being presented with an array of bad choices because we cling to that system. And as the latest immigration bill has shown, our elected officials no longer see the need to listen to the electorate once they're in.

Something's got to give.

Ethanol is the perfect governmental...
solution to our gasoline shortage.

This is what you get when you let politicians get close to a pot of money. Before you know it they have filled their pockets and licked their lips for more.

What about some alternatives?

How about butanol if they just have to have an alcohol. It has the same BTU as gas and can be pumped through pipelines. It also can be fermented from the same things that ethanol comes from. It would still be costly but would work in our cars without them having to be adjusted.

How about coal gasification? We have coal running out of our ears. A proven technology called thermal hydro depolymerization will turn coal into light weight oil. This oil can be burned by diesel engines. It could be refined to make gas.

Once again our political machine has jumped on the wrong solution. As Will Rogers said, "It is the best government money can but."

Misinformation
If anyone has any doubts that people are lemmings when it comes to the environment, watch this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw
It's funny and sad at the same time.

We should all do our own research and learn what benefits ethanol has over gasoline. I don't think that ethanol is the panacea for our energy woes. I personally would like to see the subsidies go toward better, more efficient public transportation. But hey, that's just me because I'm tired of dealing with stupid drivers everyday.

Think Again
Just gotta luv these folks like RetMSgt who babble on about public transportation as if to suggest this vast country is made up of millions of parcels of land which resemble NYC in density and geography.

Sir, if you're at all familiar with the west coast, particularly Los Angeles, our cities and suburbs are separated by enormous distances. Los Angeles county alone is larger than many states back east, and our entire way of life here is based on our freeway system. The reason for this resides in the fact there IS no central hub, there IS no downtown or central place of commerce in the sense that NYC or Chicago are.
Those few unfortunate people who do work in downtown Los Angeles get the hell out as soon as their work day is done. About the only people you'll see on the streets of LA after dark are derelicts and gang bangers.

If you built a high speed bullet train from, say, Lancaster to Long Beach, some hundred miles or so and in the same county, what would you do once you got to Long Beach - or to Lancaster? Unpack your portable trike and "browse" a couple of areas that are each hundreds of square miles? You don't "walk" these distances, sir, because they're vast - and bus service is largely non-existent. Nope, you need a car, even when you get to "where" you're going because nothing is centralized in this huge megaopolis. Just shopping different stores in any given area is a matter of traversing dozens of miles in each direction.



You're all wrong
The answer is "Mr. Fusion".

gimmeeabreak
Did I say I wanted to do away with all cars? Once again, you're one to jump on the first thing you read.
Just because California has turned into idiotville with megaopolis cities and urban sprawl everywhere doesn't mean that there is not a place in this nation for public transportation.
BTW, I lived in Tokyo for 4 years and saw what public trans can do. However, their system is highly inefficient even though they move millions of people everyday. That's why I said I would like to have an efficient system. I also lived on the west coast and am very familiar with the vastness of the areas. So I'm also familiar with your arguments. Do you happen to be one of the stupid drivers I was referring to? We've all seen them. People talking on cell phones or text messaging. Women putting on their makeup at 70 mph...etc, etc.
Next time before you jump on me, try reading.

Ethanol should be choice, not mandate
The govenment corn ethanol debacle is just another example of how intervention distorts market price. How can ethanol or ethanol sources be evaluated as economically feasable if those economics are interfered with by interventions?

Economists consider 'price' to be the agreed upon value of the exchange of information. Intervention in the form of price controls, subsidies, taxes, or regulation pervert the process by influencing the value of that exchange. You may say, 'but that is the whole point of intervention.'
Well, that is precisely the problem - economic feasability is no longer possible because of the priorities of intervention.

Remove the intervention from the market of exchange and ethanol will find it's place.

At the end of it all...
...the main point of the column holds up. Ethanol is highly overrated. It's use is promoted for political reasons that are not based in reality. People talk about ethanol like we have no other use for an unlimited amount of land.

Relying on the oil for our energy needs puts the US in an uncomfortable position since much of the world's oil comes from countries where either the leaders or the population, or both, would like to see the US utterly destroyed.

But a tank of gas has enough potential energy to move a several thousand pound vehicle to several thousand miles away. That's proving hard to duplicate. So gas is not going away any time soon.

In a free market, energy will come from whatever source makes the most economic sense. The markets aren't completely free, but right now, that generally means oil, coal, and nuclear technology, as well as a few others. In the near future, it may be plasma gasification. Oil right now is becoming more plentiful, but as it becomes more scarce, the balance will be adjusted.


Taxes
Not to change the subject but did you see the video on MSNBC about some want to increase the tax on gasoline to discourage its use. Not by a little but by $2 or $3 per gallon. If that happens there really will be a revolt by the common people.

Maybe You Should Live In Tokyo
Ret, I read what you said very carefully, and your "thinking" here is typically leftist, which is to say, public transportation with government subsidies thrown in for good measure. Moreover, having worked in the transportation field for much of my life, I have dealt with you pinhead types all my life. You are fixated on "European" style rail infrastructure and crummy bus systems better suited to very high density urban environments where people are packed together like sardines.

That won't work out here, pal, and no one I know wants to be taxed even more to subsidize public transportation which only bums and illegal aliens use. YOU may love rails and buses, but most of us despise being packed into trains and buses. Moreover, for this model to be even remotely viable in an area like this would require a grid of rails so vast, and rolling stock so plentiful as to cost several trillions of dollars to build. And as I said, if you get to Long Beach from Lancaster in 15 minutes, what do you do and where do you go in Long Beach without a set of wheels? Please tell me.

Tell ya what. YOU and your friends can pay for it and use it. We'll keep our cars, thank you.

Ethanol
I've been involved in debates over ethanol since the early 1990's because of my involvement with transportation and air quality. Based on the studies I have read and my personal experience I tend to agree with Mr. Stossel although I will say that he is a little hyperbolic in this case.

1-Ethanol vs air pollution- Good for CO but bad for ozone. The CO problem in this country was by and large solved by the mid-80's by computer controled ignition on automobiles. Congress mandated ethanol in the 1990 clean air act largely because of Denver CO's experience with CO. Ethanol is more volatile (i.e. it evaporates faster) than gasoline and produces more ozone precursors than gasoline.

2-Ethanol has much less energy than gaoline and always will. Taking a 15% cut in fuel ecnonmy is not a good bet in my opinion.

3-Corn is not the best feedstock for ethanol. Sugar cane, switch grass and others work better.

4-Well to wheel efficiencies. I have seen studies documenting anything from 10% positive to 60% negative for ethanol vs gasoline. It depends on your beginning assumptions and what you add in. My best guess is that energy in is about 10% more than energy out for ethanol production. This alone would make it a poor bet.

Note on the 10% positive-to get this you have to include the entire cost of the US militray in the equation.

5-If you go to an alternative fuel conference speakers talk about ethanol as though it is a silver bullet. (Note that the speakers at these things tend to be salesmen and true believers. My last altfuels meeting sounded like a tent revival or a political convention.)

6-I don't normally subscribe to conspiracy theories, but the ethanol seems to survive only because of ADM and Iowa's peculiar place in American politics.

7-If you want a competitive alternate fuel look at bio-diesel (aka vegetable oil). It is currently more expensive than regular diesel, but the way prices are going that may not last. It has about 90% of the energy of diesel and mixes easily with diesel without serious negatives. It improves particulate emissions but worsens ozone precusors (NOX in this case). I think this may be soluble.

8-I heard Richard Leaky speak recently on global warming and fuel. Part of his message (repeated several times to the chagrin of the environmentalists) was MORE NUCLEAR POWER (emphasis mine).

ctjaegar...
...Con Ed is ok,but Con Fusion sounds like a loser,market-wise.

Ho Hum
Far more people die mining oil and coal than ever died building and/or running nuclear power plants. People are "afraid" of nuclear power plants because they watch too many movies made by technologically ignorant producers. And it doesn't help that they are even more scientifically ignorant than the makers of these movies and "documentaries."

If we applied he same stringent safety requirements to any other energy-producing endeavors that we apply to nuclear power plants, we would all be living in caves rubbing two sticks together to cook a piece of meat!

France gets over 60% of its power from nuclear energy. I have always wondered why these same leftists who are so fond of pointing to France as a model for everything else, studiously ignore her example here.

gimmeabreak
Maybe you should save your attacks for someone who gives a sh** about California. BTW how's all that ethanol working for you there. You people are the reason we have all the enviro madness anyway. Obviously you haven't read a thing I said or are you just too stupid to understand the word "efficient". Wouldn't you rather subsidize something that could benefit everyone or would you like to subsidize something that is only forced on everyone in California. If I had my way I wouldn't subsidize anything. But that's not going away anytime soon so why not try to come up with a solution and stop being part of the problem.

Ethanol IS part of the solution
Arguing that ethanol will not replace oil and so is a scam is disengenuous. Nothing can replace oil. Ethanol is part of the solution because it is one alternative that is simple and available today. It can and will be made differently and more efficiently in the future. Solar and wind are already profitable without subsidies and are part of that solution. We will be much more diversified in the future but getting there will require at least 50 years. Don't listen to the politicians. They are corrupt weasels who don't know and if they do, won't tell.

Energy production
We do not produce energy, we just transfer it from one form to another - what is the most efficient/least polluting - nuclear -hands down - even with the labyrinthine regulations and hoops that those constructing and running the nuclear plants have to adhere to. France exports electric power thanks to its nuclear energy program!! If anyone is the major contributor to our present energy dilemma -look to the environmentalists - in a close race for second place in the energy fiasco - the politicians.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Ret, what horsepucky! Not unlike the current immigration crisis, you're the type who has this foolish and dangerous notion that doing "anything" is better than doing nothing! It's people like you who invariably cost the rest of us trillions in taxes and totally f*** up the works. And after trillions are spent, and the problem gets even worse, you come back again with, "Well, we gotta do something!"

No, Ret, we DON'T have to do "something!" Incidentally, this same thinking got us carpool lanes, which no one uses and which most of us despise. Whose idea were these? Well, it was one of Moonbeam Jerry Brown's appointment to run Caltrans, one Ms. Gianturco from Boston no less. Another eastern pinhead type who screwed up the system so bad it's never been the same. Oh, she "liked" the idea of traffic circles, too. Sound familiar?

Lets burn our food!!!!
Taking food and converting it to fuel is one of the most idiotic ideas I have ever heard. But at least when we run short of corn oil maybe we can go back to deep frying foods in animal fat, the way the Good Lord intended.

Food Supply
The other gorilla that few seem to have a grasp of is ethanol's impact on the food supply. Simple supply/demand is taxing the food industry as corn seems to be either a direct or indirect ingredient in many things - whether as a feed for most livestock or a sugar substitute (high fructose corn syrup). As more cropland goes to corn, less is available for non-corn inputs like wheat and soybean. Costs, and subsequently price, goes up.

Anyone care to weigh in and further enlighten me on the impact??

A solution, not THE solution
The criticisms of ethanol are well-founded. Nevertheless, interest in ethanol and alternative energy sources is a good thing. We should be leery of putting all our eggs in the ethanol basket. That so far has been the mistake with petroleum, we don't need to become exclusively dependent on one fuel. Increasing corn productivity to feed Big Ethanol is just asking for crop shortages (agricultural maladies, allocation of farmland away from food stuffs).

Give me a break!!!!
gimmeabreak,you don't even know me so don't presume that I'm one of those that says let's just do "something". That's not what I said. I said let's come up with solutions. That's very different from just doing something to appease the masses. You seem to be the type that sits on the sidelines and bit#hs and moans about all those people that come up with ideas including stupid ones. A lot of stupid things have made it to fruition without being thought out completely. Ethanol being one of them. Try an original idea of your own or does failure just scare you shi!less.
BTW, I think traffic circles are the most stupid things ever. The scene in the movie European Vacation is indicative of the insanity of one of those things. The small town of Alexandria, LA use to have two of them! How stupid is that?

Imaginary solution to imaginary problems
Greenhouse gasses and oil shortages; those are the "problems" that ethanol is supposed to fix.

But there is tremdous evidence that solar activity is driving global warming, which is driving the amount of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere. Look at the graph of CO2 vs temperature that Al Gore is always waving around (I think he is going to have it tattooed an his butt); Temperature LEADS CO2, not the other way round. The version that Gore shows is the movie, you will notice, has no verical lines, which would make the order obvious.

One must also consider that water vapor is a greenhouse gas, and the main by-product of burning ethanol.

As for the fuel shortage, we have enough petroleum to last another couple centuries. If you consider the technological advances of the previous century, I am confident that oil will be worthless before it grows too scarce. As the sheik once said "the stone age ended, but not for a lack of stones".

Liberal/Hollywood/Enviro Track Record
01. Paper Bags kill trees, use Plastic Bags.
02. Plastic Bags are harmful to the environment, use Paper Bags.
03. Global Cooling will cause mass starvation!
04. Global Warming will cause mass drowning!

HAVE THEY EVER GOT ONE RIGHT?!


Got A Solution!
OK Ret, what's to "solve" re traffic problems? If it's too many cars on our highways, most of us here in southern California want to deport about 10 million illegal aliens the hell out of here for starters! Do that and these freeways will be as empty as they were in 1955!

Whaddya think?

Some Basic Economics
There is an underlying assumption on the part of many of the arguments here that needs to be addressed, to wit, that the energy companies are somehow inevitably tied to oil production.

We have been using gasoline now for about 100 years. In that time, various and sundry alternatives have been proposed, explored, researched, tried and tested. Is there ANYONE here that really thinks that if there were a cost- and energy-effective alternative to gasoline, the energy companies would not have jumped on it like a cat on a grasshopper?

You can bet your sweet patootie they would have, even when gas was 25 cents a gallon. For one, every one of those companies nurses multiple revenue streams. Two, if it costs less to produce, more will be sold because of the increased supply, and the price will remain low. The price of gas right now is high because of artificial limitations on supply (provided by our beloved legislators). These limitations serve two purposes: 1) force people to use less gasoline and, 2) force research into other forms of energy.

Neither of these are rooted in Liberty. They are designed to control the behavior of Americans. And they are wrong.

The first purpose is rooted in Envy of our wealth and our standard of living. The proposed solution is to destroy our standard of living. Why that is a better solution than raising the standard of living of everyone else is beyond my comprehension.

The second purpose is rooted in desire for power; power over the companies that are the foundation of our economy, and through them, power over the people. Money and Power, the two great motivators.

Ethanol manufacturers have to ask for subsidies to make it competitive to gasoline. Subsidies are a mechanism the government uses to artificially manipulate (power) the market (money). Without subsidies, ethanol would have no chance. And it really doesn't matter how much energy it saves or produces; if it doesn't compare to gas in cost or energy, it will not compete without interference.

Imagine if we were to begin to exploit the newly discovered reserves of crude in our own backyard. We could fuel our own needs quite handily, could we not? But that is a short-sighted vision. Why not make ourselves a major player in world oil production? We could be the ones selling oil to China and India, and bringing in billions of dollars a day in revenues, revenues that are currently being channeled to the middle-east and funding activities designed to harm us. Selling our oil to China would have an inherent anti-terrorist effect on that region that would require very little military intervention.

Solution
gimmeabreak writes: "OK Ret, what's to "solve" re traffic problems? If it's too many cars on our highways, most of us here in southern California want to deport about 10 million illegal aliens the hell out of here for starters! Do that and these freeways will be as empty as they were in 1955!"

At least it's a start. Now you're getting the idea. Don't just sit around finding problems. Think of solutions. Now all you have to do is come up with a viable solution for rounding up all the illegals or forcing them to go home. One of my suggestions is stop hiring them. Shut down the employers that do and enforce the laws that are on the books. As with mice, once the cheese is gone, they stop coming around.

Outrageous Comments
I don't know how its o.k. to make assertions like "God will provide [a way to fuel millions of cars]" or "we have enough petroleum to last another couple of centuries", but not o.k. to say things like "God may not provide" or "we may not have enough petroleum to last another couple of centuries."

Putting aside the God comment, nobody, I mean NOBODY thinks we have enough petroleum to last "another couple of centuries". Not the U.S. Government, not OPEC, not Exxon. Sure, we have enough to last another few centuries, in that we will likely NEVER exhaust conpletely all the oil on the planet - because it isn't all economically producible. But will we have 85 million bpd +2% growth year after year? Good luck with that.

And for the last time, oil shale IS NOT OIL. It can be distilled to yield oil, but it is a very intensive process. Likely, we will never be able to produce it at a high enough rate to achieve any reductions in our reliance on imported oil. Oil supply isn't always about total reserves; it's about rate of production. Shale simply doesn't lend itself to high production rates. And, even if it can be produced economically, it doesn't mean there's not going to be a lot of demand destruction consequent to higher prices. That's what all the hard-core "free-marketers" here don't seem to get. We've just spent the last ten years blowing our national wealth on suburban development. How are people in places like San Bernardino going to make it if all of a sudden their commute to work in Los Angeles costs $5 a gallon or more? What effect will that have on our economy as a whole? What effect will that have on society?

But noooo, we can't stand in the way of people getting what they want. Our energy use patterns must be o.k. if that's what people want. Well, people want to take drugs, have abortions, be homosexual, whatever, and I don't see too many of you having a problem regulating that stuff. Or, presumably, child labor, slavery, product safety (unless you want lead paint on your childrens' toys?), etc.

The Ethanol Food Chain
Farmland in Nebraska has appreciated by about 30% in the past year as a result of ethanol politics. Corn prices are way up too. Ethanol is good for farmers and has caused price increases in corn feed and increases in the cost of beef, chicken, eggs, milk, cheese, and other foods.

Farmer Joe
I was raised on the farm and still live in the heart of corn country. All of my relatives still farm. Ethanol was, is and will be another subsidy to farmers, period. It is NOT the answer and will never be. I wish it was.

Listen up, conservatives!

There is not a single agricultural subsidy that I know of which can be justified. Period.

.

Ethanol
We buy feed for four horses. The price of feed has gone up $4.00 a bag in the past two months.

What will happen in case of a drought? Or flood, tornado, or the many natural disasters that destroy crops. Then where will we be?

Alternative Fuel
I find it impossible to believe that any president or congress in concert with the Big Oil Interests are going to allow and alternative fuel to be introduced.
Whe have been in this energy crisis for over 35 years since the first Alaskan Pipe Line bill was shot down by enviormentalist. There was never a mention of an energy crisis prior to that, but within 6 months Gadzooks we had an oil shortage and so the Alaskan Pipe Line was allowed and is managed and controlled by the Big Oil Interests who incidenally to my knowledge ship/sell every barrel of it to Japan to be refined and then sold back to Big Oil so that the prices may be inflated at the gas pump.
The reason it is refined in Japan we are told is because Enviormentalist have placed so many refinery restrictions on the books that it can not any longer be refined in United States. While I would agree that many restrictions have been placed on the books it is still possible to refine in this country but by going abroad the Oil companies justify a higher price at the pump.
Also there is talk of suing OPEC over their production quotas and price fixing, but how many people realize a minority share of most OPEC countries oil production is owned by america oil companies ???
If and when we allow drilling in ANDWAR, and Off Shore the drilling rights will supposedly be put up to bidding and who do you think will win the bidding war ??? American Big Oil interest of course. Why ??? because Big Oil has control of the only means of shipping the crude oil. They own the Super Tankers, and they own and control the pipelines so don't look for any relief in our lifetime.
We the taxpayer will continue to pay the high prices at the gas pump and also subsidze any alternative fuel that Big Oil and their partners in congress, and the White House approve. Then if an alternative fuel ever is allowed we the taxpayer will have to pay reparations to the oil companies for lost revenue for all eternity.
I am a true conservative and used to be a member of the Republican Party but I ask you all to check the history of Big Oil and the UNHOLY ALLIANCE and there has never been a U.S. president since Teddy Roosevelt, including Ronald Reagan who ever stood up to or took on the Big Oili interest.
Does anyone believe that there are more that a tiny few members of congress or their families who do not hold Big Oil stock ???
When they have caused a massive recession and all but destroyed the middle class of our country the George H.W. Bush and his son George W. will be well on their way to eastablishing an international community.

Alternative Fuel
I find it impossible to believe that any president or congress in concert with the Big Oil Interests are going to allow and alternative fuel to be introduced.
Whe have been in this energy crisis for over 35 years since the first Alaskan Pipe Line bill was shot down by enviormentalist. There was never a mention of an energy crisis prior to that, but within 6 months Gadzooks we had an oil shortage and so the Alaskan Pipe Line was allowed and is managed and controlled by the Big Oil Interests who incidenally to my knowledge ship/sell every barrel of it to Japan to be refined and then sold back to Big Oil so that the prices may be inflated at the gas pump.
The reason it is refined in Japan we are told is because Enviormentalist have placed so many refinery restrictions on the books that it can not any longer be refined in United States. While I would agree that many restrictions have been placed on the books it is still possible to refine in this country but by going abroad the Oil companies justify a higher price at the pump.
Also there is talk of suing OPEC over their production quotas and price fixing, but how many people realize a minority share of most OPEC countries oil production is owned by america oil companies ???
If and when we allow drilling in ANDWAR, and Off Shore the drilling rights will supposedly be put up to bidding and who do you think will win the bidding war ??? American Big Oil interest of course. Why ??? because Big Oil has control of the only means of shipping the crude oil. They own the Super Tankers, and they own and control the pipelines so don't look for any relief in our lifetime.
We the taxpayer will continue to pay the high prices at the gas pump and also subsidze any alternative fuel that Big Oil and their partners in congress, and the White House approve. Then if an alternative fuel ever is allowed we the taxpayer will have to pay reparations to the oil companies for lost revenue for all eternity.
I am a true conservative and used to be a member of the Republican Party but I ask you all to check the history of Big Oil and the UNHOLY ALLIANCE and there has never been a U.S. president since Teddy Roosevelt, including Ronald Reagan who ever stood up to or took on the Big Oili interest.
Does anyone believe that there are more that a tiny few members of congress or their families who do not hold Big Oil stock ???
When they have caused a massive recession and all but destroyed the middle class of our country the George H.W. Bush and his son George W. will be well on their way to eastablishing an international community.

Free market, electric cars, and trains
These are three common myths that need to cleared up (cleared away, actually).

The myth that the free market does not exist in the energy industry is just that, a myth. Just as nature abhors a vacuum, so does a free market economy. The one thing you can be sure of is that private industry has directed R & D dollars to replacement fuels for crude oil.

Another thing the free market does, all without any 'help' from DC pols, is handle "by-products". A by-product is a material that is leftover after the main product is manufactured. When gasoline, kerosene (jet fuel), and deisel are refined the leftovers or "by-products are used in a variety of manufacturing processes, the most common of which are plastics.

You will not get plastics from distilling corn (or sugar, or switch grass).

The myth of the electric car was first debunked back in the 1970's during the first fuel shortage. This fuel shortage NEVER existed in nature. It existed because (1) Richard Nixon "froze" the price of gasoline at $0.35 per gallon and (2) OPEC declared an oil embargo against the US as a result of yet another dispute about Israel. There has never been, and never will be, a shortage of fuel in this country that is not caused by over-regulation by government

The problems with the electric car are that it cannot produce the required performance, especially torque (needed for hauling/towing heavy loads), acceleration, and top end speed, and, most important, WE CANNOT PROVIDE THE ELECTRIC POWER THAT IS NEEDED TO RECHARGE ALL THOSE BATTERIES EVERY NIGHT.

And even if we could, electricity at the end user's duplex outlet is one of the LEAST EFFICIENT forms of energy we have. It is far less efficient than the horsepower created by an internal combustion engine burning gasoline or deisel. That means there will be many times the emissions into the atmosphere of both pollutants and CO2 from the use of electric cars than from current technology.

Finally, regarding the erroneous statement that trains were the first hybrids. I don't know which trains exactly are being put forth as hybrids, but if you're talking about the standard deisel-electric that is still the workhorse of American railways, this 'vehicle' is NOT A HYBRID.

A hybrid is a combination of two or more fuels with different types of chemical reactions to draw the energy from them. A diesel-electric locomotive has only one fuel; deisel. The 'electric' aspect of a diesel electric is a dynamo that is driven by the deisel engine to produce electro-magnetic energy, or as it is called by railway engineers, electromotive force. This is the force that is used to drive the train. Trains use this instead of a conventional gearbox-transmission drive-train because the transfer case (clutch) that would be needed to move a train from a standing start and change gears to allow even a reasonable speed of 30 mph would have to be bigger than the engine (not practical).

This is why the first trains operated on steam and did not change when the automobile, with its internal combustion engine, was invented. It is also why big ships were "steamships" until nuclear power took over.

There is no need to subsidize ethanol or anything else. The one thing we can always depend on is good old American greed (profit motive) aided and abetted by Yankee ingenuity. By the time there is a real shortage of oil in nature some enterprising, profit-oriented group in the private sector will be more than happy to sell us their REPLACEMENT (not "substitute") technology.

Think not? Well, in the late 1800's they laughed at guys named Packard, Chrysler, Ford, and DuPont, who were trying to invent something called a "horseless carriage". And in the early 1900's they told the Wright brothers that if man were meant to fly he'd have wings.

ethanol
check this website from the department of energy - .http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/factfict.pdf
Ethanol , while not THE answer is one of the components of a solution .
By the way - increasing a bushel of corn by one dollar increases the cost of corn products like tortillas or corn flakes by 4% - think about how many tortillas can be mase from a bushel of corn .
I like John Stossel and he is often is often correct , but he has not done his research on this one .
I hate it when someone complains about a potential solution to a problem without offering an alternative . Go ahead and complain about ethanol and nuclear fission , but you better have another answer .

ethanol
I can not sit back and let this go unanswered -
I am considering an investment in ethanol , and I did some research . I went to the US Dept. of Energy website to get some facts .
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/factfict.pdf
The Cornell data is from 2001 - at that time , it may have taken more energy to produce ethanol than you got out , but in 2007 , that is no longer true .According to the Dept of energy you get 65% more energy out of ehhanol than you put in . You get 1.6 BTU's for every Btu put in . this may not seem like a lot , but refining gasoline is truly a negative return - there is a 20% loss of energy . In other words for every BTU of natural gas or coal used in refining crude oil , you get out 0.8 BTU of energy from gasoline .
Ethanol has a higher octane rating and if engines were tuned to ethanol , mileage would be better .That is why Formula One cars use ethanol as well as speed boats .
Ethanol is probably subsidized to encourage buidling plants to produce it . At 4 dollrs a gallon there is a substantial profit from ethanol .

interested j
"In other words for every BTU of natural gas or coal used in refining crude oil , you get out 0.8 BTU of energy from gasoline."

Do not trust ANY source that told you this. Especially if it's the government.

It's like saying it costs Exxon-Mobil more money to make a gallon of gas than they could sell it for, but they managed to make a $39.6 billion profit in a single quarter anyway.

It's not practical. No one would make a fuel that cost more energy to make than it produced.

Also, even your own link acknowledges that adding as little as 10% ethanol to pure gasoline REDUCES gas mileage.

Yes, it is possible to re-design engines so they will perorm better on ethanol, but pure ethanol is so unstable it evaporates when exposed to the atmosphere. Don't believe me? Buy some 180 proof grain alcohol at your local liquor store, pour some in a glass, and come back a few hours later to see how much is gone. You'll be surprised.



Note for wiseone - - -
quoth wiseone: "Buy some 180 proof grain alcohol at your local liquor store, pour some in a glass, and come back a few hours later to see how much is gone. "

Well that would be a waste of good booze!

Ethanol Investments
If these taxpayer subsidies go through, ethanol probably will be a good investment.

But then, any idea, no matter how stupid, is a good investment when you have the backing of other people's tax dollars. It's like, heads you win, tails we lose.

But I'd hold off on betting the farm just yet. Although it's UNlikely to NOT pass (Congress has yet to see a subsidy it didn't like, and balls-free W will sign almost anything), there is still a microscopic chance it *won't* pass.

If it doesn't pass, ethanol isn't going to be all that sweet a deal anymore.

Who am I kidding? OF COURSE they're going to subsidize ethanol. It's only a matter of "when", not "if".

Ethanol - the big secrets
I quite admire John Stossel, and everything he has said in the article is accurate, given one significant caviat. The problems with alcohol fuel are the externalities - fuel alcohol required to be denatured, or be taxed the same as beverage alcohol.

Denaturing means the fuel must approach being anhydrous - that is that virtually all the water needs to be removed, or the denaturing agent and the alcohol will separate, attract water, and not function properly. Same with mixing it with gasoline for gasohol, the alcohol must be virtually anhydrous, or they will split and attract water.

Alcohol fuel can be anything 160 proof(80%) or more. Even with almost 20% water your engine, properly tuned can use it very well and cheaply. It takes several times the energy to remove the last 20% as it does the first 80%. If government changed the denaturing requirement, then fuel alcohol would be much more useful and competitive.

Most corn in the U.S. is grown for feeding livestock. Byproducts from distillation can be used for livestock feed, leading to leaner and healthier animals, with much less impact on supply.

The octane equivalent with ethanol is greater than 110, so although it has fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline, a properly tuned ICE can actually approach similar or better specific fuel consumption than gasoline.

Personally, I would not want to see any subsidies, just deregulation. And then the market really would allow the benefits of ethanol to stand on the own.

ethanol production
dear wiseone -

We are talking about energy used ( which seems to be a knock on ethanol ) and not profitability - The materials used , coal and natual gas in the refining of gasoline are relatively inexpensive , as is the crude oil itself , so Exxon can make a wonderful profit - I have a substantial investment position in XOM as well as natural gas .
Ethanol production also uses natural gas and methane gas in production and is very profitable .
At $4 per gallon for gasoline ethanol is an alternative - at $2 per gallon , it is not , mainly because the corn , which can be regrown is more expensive than crude oil per unit volume .
BTW studies have shown that almost any car can use up to 30% ethanol without modifications .
After reading these coments , I am more inclined to invest as a contrarian investor , before everyone else figures it out .

RetMSgt
I know one of those Alexandia LA traffic circles very well. Try driving around it in an 18-wheeler.

Alexandria LA refuses to get into the 21st century. I guess that's what they get for voting Democrats into office.

Safety
A major reason alcohol fuel is used in the Indianapolis 500 since 1965 (first methanol, and now ethanol) has been safety.

In 1964, a seven-car crash killed two drivers when their cars exploded on impact. A third car, on alcohol fuel, leaked fuel, but the driver walked away from a situation with gasoline could be lethal because of its ignition.

When an alcohol fuel fire occurs, you can fight it with water. At the recent Grand Premio Telefonicá de España, one of the Scuderia Ferrari ******** cars had a fire as the car finished refueling. In the Indy Racing League, with ethanol, rules require after the car finishes its fuel stop, a team member spray the fuel nozzle range with water to dilute the alcohol as to prevent a fuel fire. How many times have we seen in the old methanol era CART officials with water buckets, ready to splash down drivers with water when a fuel fire happens?

Safety, not politics, is the reason American open-wheel racing uses alcohol fuels. They learned the lesson in 1964. In fact, the IRL learned ethanol is more fuel-efficient than methanol; a car with a 22-gallon ethanol tank goes as long as an older 35-gallon methanol tank.

a possible solution

-All man's efforts are for his mouth, yet he is not satisfied, ecc 6:7

-Taxmen and oil barons are successful because they know we need to go through them to fill our stomachs.

-What do humans produce a lot of (hot air and other wastes)?

-What if, on a large scale, sewage gases(CH4) and other methane producing materials were up-converted to octane (C8H18) and the waste product used for fertilizer?

-2 birds with one stone...


I agree somewhat with squire
You want renewable energy?
Find a way to extract it from urine. The only companies profiting would be those supplying us with bottled water, beer, coffee, and soda.

And refueling stations would have a very different and unsettling look.


Pure Ethanol Fuel
Isn't "ethanol" the same stuff in alcoholic beverages?

Puts a whole new meaning on the phrase, "gassed up," don't it?

and once again
we ignore the facts. and the single most important fact is the 100 to 500 year supply of AL our POL needs in the form of shale just sitting in the western united states, awaiting use. all it will take is to toss the enviro-nuts out of the court system and send in the bulldozers. same pipelines. same pumps, same cars, same refineries, no more oil spills on My beach ( smiles) no more tankers, no more sending billions to despots like screwy hugo, or the arab islamo fascists billions of bucks a year to buy the stuff with which to kill us all. and it was "recovarble" at 15 bucks a barrel back in the 70's. so a few burros and feral horses have to watch where they walk so they dont fall in a big hole.
The bs of ethanol is only matched by the concerns of CO-2 in the atmosphere.


CBP

...the will of the masses is divided by far-reaching distortions and the mass mind is corrupted by a knowledge worse than ignorance because it is false.
Ely Culbertson

oh and by the way
by computing in the lower efficiency of ethanol in energy produced, it actually takes a bit more energy to produce the ethanol, then what the ethanol produced can generate

Like it or not, Stossel is a realist
I work for a company that builds ethanol plants. Although they pay my bills, I will anonymously agree with Stossel. Ethanol is nothing more than a feel good gimmick to make clueless libs happy. Do you remember the energy crisis of the late 1970's? Jimmy Carter spent hundreds of millions of tax dollars to build a coal gasifying plant in North Dakota. That was supposed to be the 'ethanol' of the time. Like many endeavors artificially propped up by the government, and not market diven, the idea met a quick death. The same thing will happen to ethanol.

You habitual worrywarts, the sky is not falling. Everything will be OK. You can continue to drive your SUVs and turn up your air conditioners. When the time comes that a gallon of gas is $20, even the libs will demand that we drill for oil at home. And, when the domestic oil supply runs out, then the nukephobes from the 1960's will beg us to go to nuclear energy. Nuclear plants will produce more electricity than we can ever use to heat our homes and to produce more SUVs. To run our SUVs, there will plenty of electricity to produce all the liquified hydrogen from the electrolysis of water. This should make even the libs happy, because hydrogen is the cleanest burning fuel known to man.

Finally, illegal aliens need not worry. The price of tortilla will be inflated only for the short term. You need not curse ethanol anymore.

Not so true
Corn sucks for ehtanol does not mean ethanol sucks.
Not a logical argument.
at one point intime oil was not effective as it is to today. Why does not any one look into the promise of ehtanol as bio fuel apart from what it is today. We can bio engineer a more potent, sugar rich plant, and more effective enzymes and more tollerant yeasts. Then Bam we have a powerfull fuel source.

Ethanol is pure Corn!
From reading John Stossel's excellent essay to the numerous comments posted, and my own experience and knowledge, I've come to some conclusions.

Ethanol is not a viable commodity. It uses as much, if not more, in fossil fuels to produce it, and it generates fewer BTUs---but more pollution---than gasoline alone. If all the arable land in the country were planted with corn---not good for the long-term productivity of the land or our food supply---it would still not be enough. And, of course, demand will continue to increase. When an 'energy source' costs more in other energy to produce, what good is it?

Why does the government have to subsidize it if Ethanol is so good? The free market would be rushing to produce it if it had more promise and was more efficient than gasoline. Whatever you might think about it, the free market is the mainstay of capitalism and freedom. If that free market doesn't want and encourage the use of Ethanol, then this 'alternative energy source' just won't fly.

We need to convince the enviro-Whackos to give up on their fanatic religion about global warming--yeah, sure, easy. [Why not take a cue from John Edwards and call 'global warming' a bumper-sticker sentiment?] While there may be some climate warming, it's almost entirely natural. Man may contribute to local pollution, but the global climate is not quite that reactive to such abuse. Eons of sometimes violent natural change have proven that. Take the Sun's increased output out of the equation, and we have very small changes to our climate---something natural from the Earth.

Ethanol is a 'feel good gimmick.' I like that comment from another poster. The real problem is that the left has many 'feel good gimmicks.' It really has to wake up to reality in order for this Country to survive.

We need more nuclear power for our electricity, thus reducing our dependence on oil and coal. And we need to use our abundant coal supplies to further reduce the use of oil, leaving it only for gasoline for the most part. [I'm not anxious to see the likes of the 'snail darter' outlasting us on Earth.] Talk about energy independence! We could actually leave the Middle East and Venezuela to their socialist friends wherever they are.

I like that.

Squire a possible solution...
Interesting, provocative, but not all of us have even a minor in chemistry. In plain English, please, tell us more@

Monty
Why would you criticize Stossel or any other writer for not dealing with a subject about which you would prefer to read? That is like criticizing a first baseman for not scoring touchdowns.

If you want to read of other alternative fuel supplies, google it and read on.

subsidize ethanol
why are your soldier in irak?
from how they get paid?

Ethanol (or mehtanol) might work if.....
If we quit trying to use corn alone and legalized hemp, there is hope. Otherwise it is a lost cause.
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