Join The Debate!

School Choice

One of the keys to better Public Schools is to give them the ability to immediately expel kids who are there doing the things mentioned above. I am absolutely for vouchers, but in addition to tickets out of public schools, there need to be changes allowing those schools to get better. One of the biggest would be allowing them the freedom to discipline.

Practical Problem

While I do not disagree with the idea of removing dangerous students from school, I do have a question: What do we do with them?

At the moment, there is not a viable alternative. Giving the problem to the parents does not solve it because these children are the way they are because their parents have already abdicated their responsibility.

These children are future clients of our prison system. Somehow, we must solve that problem. It is cheaper to solve it when they are children.

Unfortunately, I don't have a good solution to this problem.

lack of discipline

Wil, I don't disagree that "allowing them the freedom to discipline" would be a good thing. However, since the elitist liberals that run the government schools will never, ever allow that to happen, it is imperative that vouchers give parents a choice to opt out of the government system. I homeschool, however, so what do I know. :-))

zzzzzzzzzzz

-- and --

-- and if it doesn't, well shucks, there's always an ongoing need for more floor sweepers!!

If you care about this issue

drop this guy a line and let him know that you recognize his courage.

http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/oped/moore/04/courage.html

Unions Running Schools?

How did we ever let that happen? The public school system is beyond reforming. Get your kids out and put them into private schools or home school them.

Part of the problem lies with our Protestant churches. They should have created a private school system, as the Catholic Church did, years ago and made sure that every child who wants out of the public school gulag can escape. The money is there, but not the will. Disgraceful.

Unca Alby

I agree -- put them to work -- doing "the jobs that Americans Won't Do". We will solve two problems with one law! Who needs an army of illegal aliens when we have an army of legal delinquents?

For those who are not vicious but are simply undisciplined, Sister Mary Bernadette's "in school suspension" would probably work well. Students sat in a Panopticon of a rooom at individual study carrels, facing the wall with their backs to Sister, and except for regular breaks for escorted trips to the washroom and half an hour to eat lunch and stretch the legs, students sit at these carrels and complete their assignments in absolute silence. This continues with reviews of the situation at stated times to see if the message has been received, and when the student has got the idea that it is better to be in class than in the Suspension Room, he or she returns to the classroom. Parents are given a choice between this solution and expulsion. Period.

But for the ones that cannot behave in a school situation, 'stoop labour' is the answer. Some of them may actually learn some self-respect by learning to complete a task properly; some may decide that a lifetime of scrubbing toilets, raking lawns, and dealing with humorless bosses who are fifty times worse than the teacher, is not after all preferable to sitting in class and learning to read.

P.S. I would also return the classroom to the Three Rs with an addition of Rhetoric -- all students recite aloud from memory a selection from "Chief Modern Poets of Britain and America" every Friday. This must be receited in standard English and with no backtalk.

A 10yr plan to fix K-12 education

Neither side has it right, unfortunately, on fixing our K-12 education system.

The suggestions from both sides are minor - involving patchwork to a system that is failing miserably!

Republicans: local control (state level), more money, school choice, some accountability .. blah, blah

Democrats: Federal control, more money .. blah, blah

Of the two 'patchwork' solutions, I happen to favor (slightly) the Republican version - but c'mon .. don't any of these politicians get the fact that as a country, we erred grossly when we put K-12 education into the hands of the Govt? Would it matter significantly if it was the State Govt instead of the Federal Govt?

How long will we taxpayers accept band-aids on a gushing wound?
-------excerpt ends--------
To read the article, click on:

http://voice.townhall.com/g/a71b80ca-d2ff-4587-a7cd-1c6c55221b55

"public" schools

We call them government schools. They would probably be just as well served calling them teachers' unions indoctrination insititutions.

If the teachers don't want to do something, the administrations of the government schools bend over backwards for them. They want to avoid any conflict and appearance of controversy because it would look bad. I have many examples as lots of people do but I'm trying to leave it in the past and there are too many to go into.

They need to get rid of the social experimentation classes too. Then they would have time to actually teach. But then the liberal cause of indoctrination would be lost and the schools wouldn't need as many teachers which would also be bad for the teachers' unions.

I know a couple of teachers who love to teach and spend as much time with the kids as they can.
There are too few though.

They try to diagnose as many kids, mostly boys, with add and adhd so it's easier to control them but they also get more money for the special ed.

I ended up pulling one my boys out of the h.s. and he gets better grades taking his classes online than he's ever gotten and the classes are more advanced than they would have even let him in at the h.s.

Get rid of the fed DOE. That would give control back to the states. Although the states could refuse fed money and then they wouldn't have to do what the feds tell them. That would also diminish the power of the teachers' unions because you wouldn't have politicians who make the education rules from D.C. beholding to the unions.

Who gets the gang bangers?

While we fight over vouchers, who ends up teaching the gang bangers in the examples in the article... Sure, we use vouchers to save these kids who are being preyed upon... now, what do you do with the bangers?

Leave them in a public school? Then point to it and use it as proof that public schools are bad?

Give ME a break, John.

Private schools are bad, too

Studies show that private schools are as bad as public schools, at least when it comes to academics (the readin' & writin' & `rithmetic part). Private schools may do a better job protecting Christian children from godless minorities and evolution.

Hey, Wait A Sec...

For those implying that 'scrubbing toilets' or 'sweeping floors' is a task left for illegals or delinquents, you should check your arrogance at the door.

I am in the building maintenance industry. I personally scrub the commodes. I personally sweep (and mop) flooring. I also hire, fire, administrate, invoice, complete payroll, and pay taxes on my profit and for 17 employees.

Thinking this kind of work is merely for illegals is what keeps illegals working this industry. Try hiring quality people who are qualified to work in the US legally, and THEN try to compete with other companies who don't. I play a balancing act daily to try to remain competitive and retain my best people. How are YOUR marketable skills coming along?

Foist off society's problem children on me? Up yours, pal! Why don't you try 'take-a-delinquent-to-work' day at YOUR office... tell me how that turns out.

Beware

When "Studies show..." you know there is a clear problem! Ha!

Hilarious post, LGM. Do you have any facts to support that claim?

Voice of Experience

I wonder how many of the posters here have ever taught in a public school. I have. I once did ten years' hard time as a full-time classroom teacher in a public senior high school. I learned a few things. And when I went into another field, I ran a research project on occupational stress among teachers, exploring a group that had voluntarily left a job that pays good money and benefits and has security. My sample of "quitters" showed that they had more than twice the academic preparation of a comparable group of "stayers". They were energetic folks, having involved themselves in all kinds of special and extra programs out of interest and love of kids. (Not for the extra money, by the way, because spending four hours after school every day plus weekends doesn't bring in that much. I recall that one man's extra pay for this duty pro-rated to 11 cents an hour for the time he actually spent coaching the wrestling team.)

Why did they quit? It wasn't the work: in my estimate, all were workaholics. It wasn't the kids, although all had the usual war stories to tell. It wasn't even the parents, who can sometimes try the souls of teachers. It was the administrators, who not only failed to support teachers' efforts but did all possible to hold special efforts to a norm (a band teacher whose kids kept winning state prizes was told, "Cool it---you are making the other teachers look bad"). My teachers were not burned out---they were furious that no matter what they did, they were seldom recognized or supported by those empowered to determine the conditions of professional life.

Often the lack of administrative support achieves the heights of the ridiculous. I myself had the following experience: a boy came drunk to my class. During change-of-classes I dashed to the office to report, "I believe that X is in school drunk. He is staggering, reeks of alcohol, and has slurred speech." THREE DAYS LATER the vice-principal came to find me, saying, "Last hour I sent for him. You are wrong. He's not drunk."

Conservatives are quick to criticize teachers. I would like to see some of their energy directed toward administrators, who in many cases are dopes who could not survive in a classroom. Also, check out guidance counselors, whose raison d'etre is often task-avoidance for students.

Half of my sample of "quitters" started their own businesses, and most of the rest got graduate and professional degrees in other fields.

Dems/Repubs Lead or get out of the way

Find the good educational leaders and get out of the way. In Indianapolis Public Schools the inner city superintendent has begun, in some schools:

1. separating girls from boys and putting them in different schools

2. setting dress codes [no pants hanging down]

3. letting good, innovative principals do their job

4. Putting some schools in uniforms [no high priced shoes, no fancy clothes]

5. Demanding respect for the staff and teachers from both parents and children.

6. Firing principals of schools that don't perform.

Although it doesn't matter, he is black.

Warped humor

Let me see if I have this correct.

We can't permit school choice, because the good students have to remain in underperforming public schools as hostage to the gang bangers.

Can that be right?

Let's try again.

We can't permit school choice because the students need to stay in underperforming schools to provide underqualified teachers -- those without Subject Matter degrees -- employment?

Let's look at it from another angle.

Schools need ever more money to lower class size, creating more classrooms and thus building more schools.

But, if the underqualified teachers we now employ are the best that can be obtained, won't the lowering of class size result in less qualified teachers being given jobs?

There must be a logical answer somewhere.

Can this be true? School choice can not work because parents are unable to make intelligent choices regarding the education of their children. If, through the PTA, they support the teachers unions they are smart enough. But, if they support choice they are not?

Why are the State agencies responsible for creating education standards routinely dumbing down the tests and norming up the results? Is parent happiness the desired outcome?

Why are the ACT people cracking down on the Advanced Placement Courses which provide high school students with college credits? Have they seen the ranking of US AP classes compared to other countries? In Math and in Science we are at the bottom percentiles.

Why are our colleges complaining about the cost of remediating entering high school graduates? They must not realize that these extra courses keep students on campus for a fifth year prior to graduation -- as long as the student loans keep coming.

Let's Consider

Oh dear, dear, dear. Listen to some of the suggestions on this thread. Then think about them.

1) "Expel students who misbehave or won't work". And do what with them? The business community would be on the phone to legislators in about five minutes, with expelled bad-a** kids running loose all over town. One rationale for compulsory education is that it keeps kids out of the economy's hair for a certain period of time.

2) "Boycott by removing all students from school". The poster suggests substituting religious and moral instruction. Does she happen to care anything about basic literacy and computational skills? Also, many homes have all adults out working because the money is needed. You can't just turn all the kids out.

3) "Put kids to work cleaning the streets". I believe that is called involuntary servitude. Some states requiring x number of hours of community service from high school students have found themselves in court facing the argument that feeding old people in a nursing home is not educationally equal to learning the calculus.

4) "Assign kids to quasi-military schools". Funded how? Conservatives don't even want to fund teaching the three R's---they won't want to fund boot camps either. And any sort of penal institution serves as a school for crime.

5) "Open more trade schools". I couldn't agree more, especially having just had my refrigerator non-repaired by The Three Stooges. But you'll have to start by re-educating the public not to expect universal college attendance. And that would mean recognizing that we are a class society (which always sticks in the American craw). So do you decide who gets to be a lawyer and who gets to be a plumber based on academic potential? Determined how and when? Then how about late-bloomers? No second chances?

These issues are like onions---the more you keep peeling, the more another layer keeps being there.

For Waski the Squirrel -- Unruly Kids

quoth Waski the Squirrel: "While I do not disagree with the idea of removing dangerous students from school, I do have a question: What do we do with them? At the moment, there is not a viable alternative." Waski also pointed out that these kids are headed for the penitentiary.

What Waski doesn't understand is this: they are going to end up in prison whether they sit in a classroom disrupting it for the other students who want an education or not. They do not want to learn, they will not learn, they are already budding criminals in that they have no respect for rules and discipline, therefore, I say, remove them. Give them back to their parents. The parents decided to have them. Let them fix it. Otherwise, we'll just wait until the appropriate time in the punk's life, and lock him in a prison instead of a school. At least he'll be there with others of his own kind. Sometimes the only thing society can do is keep bad guys locked up and away from the good guys. It is not possible to cure evil, laziness, or bad intent.

current public schools

the current public school system is atrocious. they come up with as many excuses as to why your child cannot learn as possible.

my son has dyslexia and ADHD. he had problems with math. the counselers and special ed teacher said that he isn't capable of learning his multiplication tables, but they would allow him to use a printed chart so he could pass?

is this what we call teaching?

over about a month we drilled them using card games and other techniques to keep his attention. he learned the tables very well and learned basic algebra and how to solve square roots by hand.

a lot of the schools are lazy. since they do not have to meet a standard, they really do not care if your child learns or not. theywill hold these special meetings to discuss the problems and come up with an action plan, but it is pure show; a means to appease unsatisfied parents. dazzle the parents with BS and red tape.

public education is a big waste of money!!

All most suggest

is to treat the symptoms. The whole concept of a centralized secular education system is flawed.

The only "fix" is to have all schools completely run and controlled at the local level... preferrably private or cooperatives that are NOT under state restrictions or mandates.

The incredible myth is that somehow elitists care more about our kids' education than we do... that somehow we can't be trusted to give them something better than the education establishment's. That's worse than ridiculous... it is offensive.

Liberalgoodman. Cite your proof along with the source. FTR, even if test scores were favored the public schools, a person's value set is at least as important to their level of success. Private schools and in particular Christian schools reinforce a stronger moral/ethical value set.

BTW, I DO NOT WANT THE STATE OR UNIONS TO BE GIVEN A BLANK CHECK FOR DISCIPLINE. MY CHILDREN HAVE HAD SEVERAL TEACHERS THAT I WOULD NOT TRUST IN A CLOSED ROOM WITH MY KID AND A PADDLE.

Finally, much if not most of this problem does not originate nor can it be solved inside a school. It originates in the homes where 40 years of liberal attitudes concerning feminism, sexuality, male home leadership, male role in the family, divorce, the make-up of a family, etc have destroyed many families.

This condemnation doesn't fall altogether along political boundaries. However the statistics overwhelmingly say that the most successful kids are the ones who come from homes with both their natural parents who are married to each other, are involved in church, and train their children religious values at home. The further away from the traditional model a kid is, the more likely they are to fail in any of a number of measures.

SOCIAL LIBERALS WERE UNIVERSALLY WRONG ABOUT THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION AND THE FAMILY. However we do live in a time where their "values" have permeated the social fabric.

Education Value

One thing I haven't seen is the cost comparison.

When we lived in an urban area, we had our kids in a Baptist school. None of the kids came from upper class families. They uniformly outperformed the local public schools even with kids that had difficulty learning like my daughter. Our tuition for 2 kids was 1/3 the average expense for the local public schools.

The national average for public school per pupil expense was about $7K last time I saw it. For half that money, you can get a kid into every religious private school I've ever seen or heard of. I'm sure some are more but there are plenty that aren't.

BTW, I don't trust the voucher idea. Vouchers are an opening for the teachers unions and left wing liberal academics and secularists to dictate their failed ideals to private schools. Most private schools succeed specifically because they are not driven/limited by secular/leftist ideals.

Tax credits both to parents and to contributors to scholarship funds for primary education would work better without the risk.

Burn them all down

Public schools are intented to reduce young people into non-thinking atomotons who will preserve the political power of the elite. They DO NOT exist to teach reading, writing, and arithnatic. That is their biggest lie. They teach cooperation, doing what you are told, responding to bells, sitting quietly, enduring boredom, and going along with nonsense. Those are the intended lessons. They need to be cut down, burned down, and the money given back to the people. Children learn to read far better at home than wasting their time in mass behavior conditioning institutions.

Public schools should be burned down for the good of the children.

sjt18 - Distrusts Vouchers

sjt18, your concern as to Vouchers being a tool of unions and other such corrupting influences is worth considering. It is my understanding that Vouchers, to be effective, must be just the opposite. Vouchers need to be a freely traded currency that can be spent on any accredited school. Otherwise, nothing changes.

According to teachers unions tax records

According to a study of about 500 teachers unions tax records (which are public information since they are unions), on average only ***5%*** of union dues are spent on the ONE AND ONLY thing teachers unions are supposed to do -- collective bargaining. FIVE PERCENT! In fact, less than half of these unions spend ANY MONEY AT ALL on collective bargaining in the year investigated, and the most any of those unions spend is only 15% of their dues.

Instead nearly all of their money is spent either on funneling money into the Democratic National Committee coffers, or is spent on 7 to 8-digit union boss salaries, and multimillion dollar junkets for union leaders.

When Bush first took office, he reinstated an executive order that was originally written by his father, and then repealed by Clinton. This executive order did not impose ANY new laws or restrictions whatsoever. No, this executive order merely required unions display the summary of a law that has been on the books since the 1930s similar to the way employers must display the minimum wage laws and anti-discrimination laws.

The unions were INFURIATED! They claimed this executive order would interfere with their ability to raise money for collective bargaining activities, and the unions actually tried to sue the administration (the case was laughed out of court, of course).

What was the law whose summary this executive order required posted? The law was one that required unions to give to any member who requests records of exactly what they spent union dues on, and, if a member asks, to refund any portion of that member's dues that were spent on non-collective bargaining activities.

OF COURSE, when they spend practically NOTHING on collective bargaining, they are upset about being forced to abide by the law!

Unions, in the year 2007, are NOTHING but a means by which money is involuntarily stolen from its members and funneled into the pockets of mobsters and Democrats (but I repeat myself).

what about Europe?

Seems everytime I turn around, the left is touting just how great Europe does it, no matter what "it" is. Where are you now?

Several countries in Europe attach the tax money for education TO THE STUDENT. Wherever the student goes to school, that school gets the tax money. Period. Schools have to perform VERY WELL to attract students, or more realistically, their parents. Some schools are general "liberal arts" types, readin' writin' arithmetic and some specialize in science, or construction and engineering, math, or performing arts . . . . the PARENTS decide.

What a concept.

In a town of about 100K north of Dallas, there is a building next to the county jail called the Juvenile Detention Center. If in school suspension doesn't help you control yourself at school, you get to go to school next door to the jail, how long depends on the offense. Your backpack is searched on entry. the teachers are very often cops, cops are in the classrooms and hallways. No fun classes. No sports. No lockers. PE is aerobics, no games. No talking. No cell phones. No MP3 players. Just you and your books and your pencils. Makes regular school look like a privilege and helps in a major way to encourage self discipline, gets the trouble makers off the regular campus. Not perfect, but it helps.

Lilly

You're wrong that conservatives don't want to fund the 3 Rs. We do. It's all the other crap that we can't understand the funding of. Why in the world are we teaching German classes to 6th graders? Is it really necessary to teach computer literacy to 2nd graders? Educators have become so focused on teaching everything under the sun that the basics get lost.
I was educated in public schools in Alabama. I can remember wonderful teachers and I can remember really bad ones. After 12 years and graduation, the bad ones were still teaching. The good ones had moved on to other things. WHY? Teachers Unions. That's why. Here in Arkansas the government was ordered by the court to come up with equal funding for every student in the state. The thinking being that small town students were not getting the same educational benefits as large cities. When the subject of consolidation of the over 300 districts came up, the special interest groups came out of the woodwork. Teacher unions, administrator coalitions, the list goes on and on. All to protect jobs. "To hell with the kids and the value of education. I've got to keep my $125000 per year job as administrator of a 600 student "district".
It's ridiculus. The NEA should be banned from all states. Period.

smokeykhan - End Tax For Schools

smokeykhan, your position that taxpayer funded schooling be ended altogether is a good, dreamy thought. However, it will not happen. Social Security will not be ended, Medicare and Medicaid will remain and so will a host of other soicialist ills.

Vouchers is an attempt to live with what we must accept, Government funded and mandated schooling for kids.

Vouchers offer, instead of giving money to a school bureaucracy to spend as they think best, gives the money to Parents to spend as they think best.

If we bought cars the same way that we accept schools, we would all send in requests to Ford and their engineers would issue us cars as they would deem best for us. Heck, we would all be driving Edsels. But, because we control where we spend our money, we told Ford to shove it and now nearly every car on earth has qualities of the Lexus built into it.

By the same token, our Public Schools are a bunch of Edsels, designed by elitist school engineers. Vouchers, on the other hand, has the best promise of converting them into Lexus, designed by freedom of choice.

Shrinque

One other great thing about your post? Libs are scratching their heads trying to figure out how you can get a 75% increase in funding after losing half your students @ $2000 each. "Why, it just can't happen!" Too funny. LOL

Solving Education

It shouldn't be surprising to everyone here that the amount of money we spend on education goes up year after year, but the performance of our children goes down.
The basic cause of this decline began when our politicians and Supreme Court decided that teaching young people right from wrong was somehow moralizing and that each person'
s interpretation was based on their feelings. Then it was decided that God has no place in education, and the slide began in earnest.
If you haven't figured it out yet, the political establishment has a vested interest in keeping the population ignorant of values and principles. Our children are only to be programmed as workers who will send their tax dollars to Washington without any knowledge of our history and our heritage. The "catch 22" of this foolish position has been that because there is no moral teaching, there is no way to create an effective environment to learn and they aren't even learning proper skills needed to be an effective worker. Added to this is the PC attitudes, and what we have is a generation of youngsters with no moral grounding, no awareness of their rightful ownership of this nation, and poor workplace skills.
The politicians of both parties have manipulated the election process so as to assure themselves a virtual lock on power. This has created a situation where partisanship has replaced leadership, and the needs of the nation have been ignored, as well as respect for the Constitution, the rule of law, and the will of the people. It is time we Americans re-assert our authority to govern ourselves and take back our rightful ownership granted us by the founding fathers.
For a more complete look at this and an understanding of our failed educational system, please visit my website, joeolivaforpresident.org, and view the section on education. I think you will be pleased at what you will find there. Check it out> Thanks, Joe

School alternatives

Jerry Pournelle wrote a book, titled "Higher Education". It's set in a future where the trends in public education, described by John Stossel, have gone to their logical conclusion. Kids can get away with murder, and teachers who do anything to stop it are fired and sometimes jailed.

The school system "graduates" people who are illiterate and innumerate, and generally lacking in skills. An asteroid mining company has had to set up its own school system to produce people with the skills they need. The schools are located in Native American reservations, where they can evade most Federal, and all state restrictions. And of course, a lot of their training takes place off-planet.

It's hard, and it's optional. The student can drop out, and the school has the right to expel the student -- what happens to the student after expulsion is his problem. But students graduate with real skills and knowledge.

I've heard of some corporations running "remedial" classes for their new hires who don't know the "three Rs". Is this also a trend?

Money?

No, more money will not solve the problem. Our town of 22,000 spends about $12,000 per student per yr.
The cost of the private, including religious, schools in this area is just above and sometimes just below $10,000 per yr.
One of my boys takes his classes from an online school for about $800 per yr. He has better grades than ever and no teachers' union puppets and the only administration he has to deal with are me and my husband.
There are choices out there. You need to research to find the best, but they're out there.
I still say get rid of the fed's dept. of education and return control to locals whether local business or local governments.
The schools won't have the backbone to turn down federal money though. There is a real problem.
Follow the money. That's what a lot of the problems boil down to with the govt. schools.
Union money, more jobs for the union employees/members, federal money to the schools with more going to those who can get more kids diagnosed w/ problems and as free lunch recipients, etc., etc..

beowulfe

"Show JUST ONE -- JUST ONE -- study that indicates that priavet schools in general don't perform FAR better than even the BEST public schools. Go ahead, I'm sure the teachers unions would LOVE to find such a study."

If I don't miss my guess, his claim was based on studies produced for the teacher's unions or some associated liberal organization. I looked into some of the links provided by someone on a topic like this one and found they were conditioned to favor the public schools.

sjt18

here is the 2006 federal report prepared by the same company that does the SAT and ACT testing.
this study was initiated by the President and republican congress.


http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/studies/2006461.asp#section4

rl

The operative statement in both of your posts was "comparable children". That gives them the freedom within the study to say it isn't the public school's fault that certain schools or students fail.

What you effectively end up with is a comparison between the best public schools and the average private school.

BTW, as we've discussed before, my greater objection is gov't indoctrination and its impact on our rights and freedoms.

Smokey

I'm with you.

Illegal

Maintenance Guy writes: Wednesday, May, 02, 2007 8:28 AM
Hey, Wait A Sec...
For those implying that 'scrubbing toilets' or 'sweeping floors' is a task left for illegals or delinquents, you should check your arrogance at the door.

I am in the building maintenance industry. I personally scrub the commodes. I personally sweep (and mop) flooring. I also hire, fire, administrate, invoice, complete payroll, and pay taxes on my profit and for 17 employees.

Thinking this kind of work is merely for illegals is what keeps illegals working this industry. Try hiring quality people who are qualified to work in the US legally, and THEN try to compete with other companies who don't. I play a balancing act daily to try to remain competitive and retain my best people. How are YOUR marketable skills coming along?

Foist off society's problem children on me? Up yours, pal! Why don't you try 'take-a-delinquent-to-work' day at YOUR office... tell me how that turns out.

-------------------------------------

Amen!

My family and friends grew up doing all of these jobs illegals supposedly now do for us. The majority of Americans still have never reached the dream of a college education but we give it away for free to anyone that calls politicians racist loud enough. Cowards all.

When politicians accept criminal behavior as necessary or normal they should do not expect citizens to accept their lawlessness. It doesn't matter if it's Cunnigham or Feinstein.

religiouslib, educational elite

religiouslib says, "there are ways to overcome those problems and it has little to do with the schools and more about community policing."

Vouchers does just that. It takes the power away from the schools and gives it to the Parents.

Schools, as practiced today, are autocratically run by the educational elites and their boards. They, intrinsically, assume that they are the experts and know what is best for our children. Parents only need to do what they are instructed and all is well.

Vouchers explode that myth. It gives the power of the purse strings back to the Parents, where it belongs. Good or bad, they need to be the arbiters of what is good for their kids. Not me, not you and certainly not the educational elists and their boards.

The problem isn't in the process...

...of government education but in the premise that education is something that government should provide.

Never forget that government "...is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force."

Government is that agency in society which has an effective monopoly on the exercise of retaliatory violent (read "deadly") force. Optimally, the agents of government exercise that force in the objective and well-reaoned discharge of their highly limited duties - and *only* within the constraints of those limits - to defend the lives, liberties, and property of the individuals within those officers' jurisdictions.

So where the hell does the exertion of deadly force fit into the education of children and adolescents?

Is there any wonder that government - which is first, last, and always nothing more than goons with guns - should do a generally lousy job at running schools?

Under government administration, schools are coercively funded ("Taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed"), compulsorily imposed upon the community's children, and administered according to curricula determined through nothing more than political chicanery. The construction and other logistical aspects of government school operations in all districts is never more than a matter of blatant pork (extortionate, wasteful, unspeakably corrupt), and reekingly demonstrative of Jerry Pournelle's classic "Iron Law of Bureaucracy."

Among the many advantages of a voucher-system alternative to "public" education is the abolition of the "Adolf's Ice Cream" ("One Flavor - Take it or Leave it!") arrogance of local government school systems, obliging administrators and school boards to become truly responsive to the preferences of their individual students' parents and caregivers rather than to the most politically influential portion of the popultion.

For this flexibility alone, putting the power of decision into the hands of those most proximally responsible for the education and general well-being of each particular child, vouchers should be embraced and vigorously promoted by everyone with any real concern for the quality of education available in any part of these United States.

It's certainly the best we can do until we pry the vital task of schooling our youngest and most vulnerable completely away from the pork-possessed politicians and the government's goons with guns.
--

School boards and unions

religiouslib writes: Wednesday, May, 02, 2007 12:14 PM
i am an elected school board member
like any idea, vouchers have unintended consequences. it is also true of no child left behind.
(snip)
i find most conservatives who comment on this are not directly involved in the public schools so they are getting information second hand.
(snip)
he has studied shakespeare and hemmingway.
he has studied the revolutionary war and the cold war.
his education, while much more advanced than mine, especially in math, is excellent and mirrors mine culturally.
---------------------
My close friend is currently on the administrative council for a San Diego area school board. She was the principal for a school that raised test scores the highest per capita ever during her tenure. I was at a school board meeting were the members openly said she needed to be fired because she was the wrong color. Here's a hint, she's caucasian.

She disagreed with everything I said until she watched herself being forced out of her position simply because she wasn't brown enough. Since then, I've found it interesting that when we have conversations on the subject of the school system she at least now acknowledges the complicity of the unions in removing prosperity for front-line teachers and replacing it with Stalinist tactics of firing anyone that doesn't spew the party line. The California Teachers Union commited criminal acts of violence against their own members in the last election and the police just watched. Luckily someone videotaped it.

I've not seen a single public school in this area teaches anything with Hemmingway in it these days. The only kids I know that can even recognize "The Sun Also Rises" are home schooled. The schools in the Chula Vista area have replaced any form of culture or music education with butt shaking dancing that appears like rave dance parties vice education.

Yep, my ancestors fought and died for this crap.

lilly

Serious, Elizabeth Cady Stanton rolls over in her grave every time you post, lilly. Grasp reality once in a while.

School boards making sense

religiouslib writes: Wednesday, May, 02, 2007 1:50 PM
fivo
very hard to believe that and if it is true she should sue and if it happened the way you said it did she should be fired.

the only person who can fire a principal is the supertentdant of schools with the approval of the school board.

you story makes no sense.
-------------------------------
You may remember her superintendent. He was the person hired for his color and then found to have blatantly lied about having a few things; like his doctorate or actual education credentials. Yet you want the story to make sense. Comical.

fivo

i am not familiar with the story, can you find a newspaper article about it.
certainly a principal fired for the color of her skin would make headlines.

Mr. D

You are so right. My daughter and my granddaughters are all in Christian School. I have served on the board of the school. I get so frustrated at the local pastors who do not see or will not acknowledge the need for Christian education. Some of the churches are so totally tied into the public school system via before and after care programs that a Christian school is a financial threat. we don't live in a big city, so I guess the feeling is that the horrible things that happen in big-city schools won't happen here. Unfotunately, it's just a matter of time.

Hmmm

This argument always begins from the assumption that there must be public schools, teacher unions and state/federal bureaucracies involved. Not so.

Leftist/socialist/gender radicals see schools as a place to indoctrinate children. This is child abuse. Unions see them as a source of income. This is teacher abuse. Bureaucrats see them as a base for career advancement and power acquisition. This is societal abuse.

The only thing missing from this picture is quality education, something all the sleazeballs above see primarily as a threat.

sjt18

by the way good to talk to you

there is a catholic school in my neighborhood and a charter school and the public school.

my son is getting the best education at the public school.

how do i know?

besides personal anticdotes, the high school and the charter school are both tested under state requirements and the high school is better.

as far as the catholic school their percentage of graduates and how many go on to college is much smaller.

my sons girlfriend will go to berkely or harvard.

pokerguy

your assesment is so baseless as to be laughable.

so you know all teachers and administrators in the country and they all fit your neat little pigeon hole huh.

what research have you done to back up your extreme statementd?

how many schools have you surveyed?
how many teachers have you surveyed?
how many administrators have you surveyed?
what questions were asked?
what criteria are you using to make the judgements that back up your accusations?

zero is the right answer and that is what you know about the millions of teachers and administrators that go out everyday and do their level best to educate the children.

a question for all of you?

are we still the best country in the world or not.
if we are, don't you think, the public school system had something to do with that.

you want to throw out the baby with the bath water.
bill gates was educated in the public school system.
most of you were educated in the public school system.
did it hurt you or harm you?

you don't have to answer me, but if you did not have a good education you would not be participating on this board and be able to articulate your ideas effectively.

some conservatives have made this their cause while at the same time denigrating their own education without realizing it.

Give Teachers a Raise

Here is reprint of one of my blog postings, it seems quite pertinent here:

Class, today we are going to examine the solution to our collapsing public school system. The solution is the concept of vouchers. Vouchers are simply taking money that the state already spends per pupil, and allowing parents to choose which school will receive that funding by enrolling their child at the school. Instead of a bureaucracy running the education system, schools would send vouchers to the government for monetary re-imbursement of education expenses. Schools would get the vouchers from parents when the child enrolls in that school. Parents would choose which schools get to teach their children. Parents get the vouchers from the government. The Government makes the vouchers from the per pupil money that they are already spending.

Here is your homework. First, check THIS link out:

http://www.ppinys.org/reports/jtf/pubilspending+revenue.htm

Find the amount your state spends per pupil. Next, we will do some math.

If you didn't attend a public school and are therefore capable of calculating, do the math to see what privatization could really do for your state. It adds great power to arguments to have facts on your side. For example, in Michigan where I reside, the per pupil spending is $9,072. That means if a teacher could have a private class of just 15 students and collect revenue directly instead of through the bureaucracy, they'd be able to make over $136,000 per year. And that is assuming that they only have 15 kids per class. Isn't that better than the average salary of $20,000 per year and 40 kid classrooms?

Then, leave it to the teachers to determine how they will diversify the education they offer. Say, they band together with music, science, math teachers etc and each pays 10% of their salary to have a building in common. Another 10% could go to learning materials. Congrats! A school with excellent teacher, 15 kids per class and teachers making over $100,000 per year. That's one example, but there are others. Perhaps they would focus solely on math, science, and technology. Perhaps they would focus more intensively on the arts. Perhaps grade school teachers would simply teach alone to keep a small, well known group of children. High School teachers with special skills may open a trade school to teach real life job skills. Others may prefer to focus on pre-college courses.

But the implications of implementing such a system are even broader than that. Are you Catholic? Mormon? Baptist? Atheist? Jewish? Muslim? Why not be allowed to send your child to a school that reflects your values? Parents are already paying for it through taxes, after all. Why should you have to pay for a service you don't use? Furthermore, when the issues of prayer in school come up, or the Evolution/Creation debate, they also have the solution in school choice. Parents could send their children to schools where Evolution is taught, where Creation is taught, where both are taught.

The point is, teachers are professionals who should be allowed to use their full innovation to teach our children. Parents should have the right to choose how their children will be educated. It can be done with the money we are already spending.

Leftists: What's so bad about that?
Conservatives: Write your local congress person and ask them to give teachers a multi-thousand dollar raise, and explain to them how it would work.

Certification does not equal competence

sj18 states:

"one of the problems with private schools is that if they are not under the umbrella of the state, they do not have to do the testing or even employ certified teachers."

In addition to the argument that it is *good* for the various private schools to avoid being "...under the umbrella of the state" (or, more precisely, *LESS* tightly controlled by the politicians, bureaucrats, and other poltroons of government than are the "public" schools) there should not be the blank and drooling presumption that certification by the educationalist establishment is either necessary or desirable as a criterion upon which to judge the capabilities of an instructor at any level on any subject in any school.

Without going into detail here (this is a "Comments" box, not a place to conduct a dissertation), the failings of the academic pseudodiscipline of Education are such that a "certified" ex-Education Major may in fact be precisely the *worst* kind of person to teach anyone anything at any time in any venue.

See http://www.sourcetext.com/grammarian/ for a complete archive of some of the most pointed and effective critique ever written on educationalism, produced by a lifelong English professor teaching at a "State Normal" (teachers' college) and thus intimately involved with the adverse outcomes produced by the typical "Department of Education" curriculum.

It can be effectively argued (purely on the basis of average Stanford-Binet scores) that certified ex-Education Majors are consistently some of the *dumbest* people sliding out of American colleges and universities with undergraduate degrees, and therefore the very last people any sane person would want to engage as a teacher under any circumstances.

---
"After sober and judicious consideration, and weighing one thing against another in the interests of reasonable compromise, H. L. Mencken concluded that a startling and dramatic improvement in American education required only that we hang all the professors and burn down the schools. His uncharacteristically moderate proposal was not adopted."

-- Richard Mitchell, *Graves of Academe* (1981)

libertybob

lol (in a good way)

that is one of the slickest and most persuasive essay i have seen in a long time. to bad it is not practical.

lets start with per pupil spending. now that just doesn't represent the money spent on one pupil, it represents an average of what it costs the school district in maintenance, renovation, new school construction and all other general overhead.
this would then have to be adjusted to the size and facilities needed for each of your ideal schools in your ideal school system. remember that overhead includes insurance which is one of the biggest expenditures in a school budget. the larger and more organized a district is the less they pay for insurance. that is why many small towns in the rural areas of america have incorporated with other towns around them.

as far as allowing all americans to go to church schools of their choice.
can you see at least the possibility of a balkanization of american culture as a result of that. i will tell all my friends who warn of islamic inroads in america, that i can guarantee the muslims will set up madrassas right away and all muslims will be required to attend as part of their religious beliefs.

i am a Christian liberal and i do want my tax dollars going to support a islamic school, an atheist school, or a wiccan school.
see if everyone gets the per pupil cost then some who paid more taxes would be subsidizing those who paid less.
so some of us could unknowingly be supporting even a communist school.

does that sound right to you guys.

which is the overriding problem with this sophisticated but flawed proposal. who decides the criteria for which schools are allowed to operate with this money.

now we are back to square one aren't we.

there is much experimentation going on in the public schools as to what works best. most states have standards and a high school exam students must pass to graduate.

one last point, most conservatives felt it was an abomination to bus kids to different neighborhoods for the sake of de-segregation but now they have an idea that includes even more busing and they embrace it.

something not quite right there.

This Ends My Paltry Contributions

What more needs to be said! Georgetwin and SJ Doc say it all. I should get back to work anyway.

Oh, wait! I'm a bureaucrat. We don't know what real work is.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZ, hrrumph.

AGZ

establishment clause considerations

The teaching of philosophies and unproven theories/ideas as "truth" in public schools today constitutes an unconstitutional infringement on a parent's free exercise of religion concerning their child. It also amounts to laws concerning and effecting the establishment (institutions) of religion.

In a wiser age, the modern public school system would be declared unconstitutional and discarded.

religiouslib

"sjt18
one of the problems with private schools is that if they are not under the umbrella of the state, they do not have to do the testing or even employ certified teachers."

That is not a PROBLEM... especially the "certified teachers" part. Who is going to certify them? The education establishment, right? That's certainly putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

I'm sorry. I like you but this is precisely the kind of elitist liberal attitude that MOST motivates me against public education. The children do not belong to YOU or THE STATE. They belong to the parents... and most have the best interest of their own children in mind.

For instance, give me the choice of a Christian school that scores just under the "standard" but teaches solid values or an "average" public school that doesn't... and I'll take the Christian school every day of the week. Why? Because my 20+ years in business in states across the country have taught me that solid ethics and morals have at least as much to do with success as academic knowledge.

IOW's, the public school can teach knowledge but not wisdom which is spiritual in nature. A Christian school can do or at least support the development of both.

chemdork

"I'm a teacher
with 29 years experience. The schools haven't gotten worse, your kids have because of their parents, especially the Helicopters. You never should have abdicated your reponsibilities as parents to the public schools, they were never set up for it and no one was properly trained for it. Yet through your legislators you have abdicated.

After reading some of the comments I now feel so bad that I will call my school district and ask them to adjust my salary to that of a local day care service since that's what we are percieved to be."

You can't be entirely serious, can you?

Yes. The decline of the family and home has had a dramatic impact on kids. No question. Yes. Many parents do expect the schools to instill values and the such... but that's precisely because it is a reasonable expectation... but one that a public school in today's secular, politically correct age cannot be reasonably expected to do.

Up until the 1950's, religious and moral influences in the school reinforced the values being taught at home. It didn't hurt that most mothers made a career of managing their home and nurturing their children (a task deemed demeaning by the elitist left).

In fact, the public school as we know it didn't really exist until the 20th century. Before that, virtually all schools were truly locally operated and controlled.

In the 1830's, de Toqueville marvelled at American literacy and common education... mentioning that almost all the instruction was performed by the clergy.

Vouchers

religiouslib writes: Wednesday, May, 02, 2007 4:06 PM
"that is one of the slickest and most persuasive essay i have seen in a long time. to bad it is not practical."

Reality just means little to you, no matter what the source apparently. I sure hope your child is getting that great education because genetics certainly don't seem to be passing the capitalization gene forward for yours.

"lets start with per pupil spending. now that just doesn't represent the money spent on one pupil, it represents an average of what it costs the school district in maintenance, renovation, new school construction and all other general overhead."

Oh, you mean like the spending at my son's high school where they hire 22 administrators for with a total of 800 kids? Of course, these administrators never really meet or do anything with the kids because they're all more busy finishing their doctorates in a slim hope they'll make it to real administrator land where you sit in a building all day long and never have to deal with students. I always laugh at this. We had four administrators at my high school in one of the worst cities in America for poor conditions. A high school of almost 2,000 people and the four administrators could name anyone at the drop of a hat that they were in charge of for the rolls. My son's administrator couldn't remember him once in four years.

"this would then have to be adjusted to the size and facilities needed for each of your ideal schools in your ideal school system. remember that overhead includes insurance which is one of the biggest expenditures in a school budget. the larger and more organized a district is the less they pay for insurance. that is why many small towns in the rural areas of america have incorporated with other towns around them."

You're funny. You mean you live where schools actually insure themselves? In San Diego they just pass the cost of liability onto the tax payer. By the way, lest we forget, we are members of the largest teacher union in the country. I mean, the union that spent 80 million dollars on the last election and doubled dues permanently to do so. Yeah, that would be the California Teachers Union that has irregular votes they do not inform their members about so that no one can mount a campaign to change the leadership because they never know the schedule. Imitating standard union practices, the San Diego public employees union also plays the same games and even collects the votes behind closed doors so their leadership hasn't changed in 20 years either.

"as far as allowing all americans to go to church schools of their choice. can you see at least the possibility of a balkanization of american culture as a result of that. i will tell all my friends who warn of islamic inroads in america, that i can guarantee the muslims will set up madrassas right away and all muslims will be required to attend as part of their religious beliefs."

My daughter was FORCED to wear Islamic dress and recite the tenants of faith or she would have failed a social studies class. We're already there, mate.

"i am a Christian liberal and i do want my tax dollars going to support a islamic school, an atheist school, or a wiccan school. see if everyone gets the per pupil cost then some who paid more taxes would be subsidizing those who paid less. so some of us could unknowingly be supporting even a communist school."

If you need Christ to justify your actions that's not my problem. I use Christ to justify nothing. Grace is not something I need to control the world within. Stop hiding behind Christ and discuss your opinions. Christ has enough jerks to deal with.

"which is the overriding problem with this sophisticated but flawed proposal. who decides the criteria for which schools are allowed to operate with this money."

You see, I would answer that question but public education keeps changing the answer every time someone steps up to the plate to do so. The winners for the Regional Debate Society have been home schooled students for the past five years. You know, those anti-social wackos you keep railing against. The actual winner is a young man at my church that is home schooled. He's a little weak in physics, but I'd wager he'd ace any school equivalence testing. However, public education refuses to provide anything of the sort. I guess his 2280 SAT will have to do.

"one last point, most conservatives felt it was an abomination to bus kids to different neighborhoods for the sake of de-segregation but now they have an idea that includes even more busing and they embrace it."

I was bussed my entire childhood. Unfortunately, I cannot qualify for free busing in San Diego because I am not below the poverty line. Never mind the fact that no one could live in the city at all on a wage like that without living in a clown house. I also refuse to pay $500 a year for something I am already taxed on. But, of course, I'm sure you'd have no problem with the buses picking up students that come up from the border daily and illegally use these facilities. When FoxNews reported on this the local police threatened to throw the reporters in jail for violating their civil rights.

"something not quite right there."

To Fivo

The lack of capitalization is from "e e cummings" syndrome. Apparently affects the brain also as manifested by too much attention to detail and statistics.

To Fivo

Don't forget that some of the recent winners of the national spelling bee also were home schooled!

Cheers,
AGZ

P.S.: I got my German degree at SDSU.

sjt18

The problem then is your definition. Wisdom does not necessarily connote a religious or spiritual point of view. It is simply insight or having good judgement. It can also be "the sum of learning through the ages; knowledge." By your definition, any public school would not be able to teach the philosophical views or values of the founding fathers.
Cheers,
AGZ

By the way, this is taxing my bureaucratic mind. I need to take a nap. Talk to y'all later. Zzzzzzzzz.

everyonesfacts

In fact many of the rules of operating government schools comes down from the feds because the schools and the states don't want to turn down money so they are subject to the feds' rules.
We need to do away with the doe anyway.

What Do Teachers Actually Do?

I am fascinated by the way conservatives paint public school teachers: "ignorant and lazy" is about as good as it gets. My impression is that many on this board don't really know much about the life of a teacher.

First, let's look at "ignorant". When I took a job teaching in a public high school in 1970 I was required to have a) a minimum of 24 credit hours in the subject I was hired to teach (in fact I had over 100 hours and added to that by continuing to go to school evenings as I taught days); b) a Master's degree in my subject (in fact I had 45 hours beyond that). I see online that in some states a homeschooling parent need meet no educational requirements at all. I have never taught at the elementary level and don't know what the certification requirements are there, but the high school teachers I worked with did NOT have degrees in education---they had degrees in math and history and English and French and phys ed and had taken the minimum of education courses to meet state certification requirements.

Does it even make sense that a person who has devoted years to the intensive study of a subject is less qualified to teach it than a homeschooling parent who, in many cases, keeps one chapter ahead of the student?

Now, "lazy". During the ten years I taught high school, I rose at 5 AM because I had a long commute to school and had to be there by 7:15 AM. I worked at home for four hours every weekday evening I was not attending graduate classes. I also worked every Sunday from breakfast until bedtime, approximately twelve hours. There is no way I could have met the commitments of my job if I had not spent that much time reading and evaluating students' work, preparing lessons and worksheets, making tests and exams, reviewing new materials, re-reading material I was about to teach although I had read it many times before, and calculating grades (which we were required to do every 4.5 weeks). In addition, we were required to telephone the parent of any student who had been illegally absent from class that day---parents often wanted to talk, so that took time as well. There's more: special-needs students (blind, deaf, orthopedically handicapped, mentally ill) were mainstreamed into regular classes, and every one of them was required by law to receive an individualized lesson (in the case of my students, designed by me). Before and after class time, there were conferences with parents, conferences with students, faculty meetings, department meetings, and committee meetings. Sometimes there were evening and weekend duties such as attending Parents' Night or chaperoning a student event, which meant returning to school.

In addition to responsibilities connected with my job, during the years I taught high school I kept house, was raising my own children, and spent a minimum of 1.5 hours each day commuting. Surely some of you who describe teachers as lazy, stupid, unmotivated, uneducated, ignorant, and dependent upon the NEA to keep their jobs, must actually know some teachers. Ask them how they spend their time.

By the way, when I left teaching in 1980 (to go back to school and enter another profession) my pay rate was for the maximum educational level my system recognized, and I had ten years of seniority. Guess how much I was making? I still have my last pay slip. $24,000 a year.

private schools

While it is true that private schools are not much better for trouble making gang members involved in illegal activities, typically they do provide a safe environment for students to learn. When I state that they are safe, I am not just referring to the fences and gates that protect them during the day, or the cameras or required fingerprint access that my sons' school require-although those are important benefits. I am also referring to the fact that my boys are not ridiculed for striving for academic excellence, while they are being taught in a middle school by high school teachers who once taught AP classes, but prefer the environment of our school to public schools. My husband and I both work and drive older cars than many of our friends, so that we can afford to send our kids there, but it is sad that the lack of vouchers keeps many kids from this type of environment to learn in.

Teachers Are Professionals

Writing as a Conservative, I do not see Teachers as "ignorant and lazy". However, I do think that our Public School System funnels Educators' creative talents to serve the wrong master.

Ford had highly motivated and well educated, hard working engineers making the Edsel. They had focus groups, involved the public and even did prototype studies. But, in the end, they made a car that they thought was best for the American public. They thought they were the arbitors of what car was best for us. After all, they were the engineers, and the Public was just ignorant and lazy consumers.

As it turns out, those ignorant and lazy consumers, once given a choice, began to change the world. They began buying cars made by the Japanese that seemed more to their liking. After a few years, the Japanese kept fine tuning what the Consumer wanted. Now, we have Lexus. And, although a bit late, even the Ford has taken on its qualities. Engineers working for the Consumer made that happen, not the other way around.

Our Public Schools are no different. The school engineers, teachers, are the arbitors of what is good for the Consumers. They work for their bureaucracy with paychecks coming from a blind trust called taxes. They do not work for the Parents. If the Parents do not like how things are done, then they need to come to the schools and fix it. Interesting. Imagine Ford saying, Consumers, if you do not like what we make, come into our plants and fix it yourself.

Vouchers changes that paradigm. Parents should not have to be engineers or educators. They simply need a choice and the power of the paycheck. With those elements, I sincerely beleive they will fix it. If the Consumers were smart enough to make the Lexus, they are smart enought to make better schools. I trust them.

Wonderful religiouslib,

And my bet it is that once the community finds out about such a school, it will surely remain in tact. The FBI totally won't have any ability to investigate it under the guise of terrorist activity.

If a Muslim school wants to teach their students useless crap, that is their perogative. America isn't the middle east, you can't just find willing suicide bombers and bomb materials laying around under a rock with an imam willing to supply them.

Besides religiouslib, I'd rather have your theoretical Muslim school churning out useless idiots than our current corrupt, union-run garbage that screws over everyone's children.

the importance of government education

there is no single issue more determinative to the future of the republic.

either we will begin to remove the state from public discourse starting with education or we will continue to cede more and more of ourselves to the state.

edcucation is the statist's key to subversion of individual liberty to the ever more powerful collective the beaurocrats run and benefit from. with no government education involvement the usa will have exactly the society it wishes reflected by its individual choices and no longer reflect the socialist antfarmenrs pseudo utopia.

state planning means your life planned for you.

Parent of Four kids who did something

Started in a northern Wisconsin town at a small k-5 public school in a small community. It wasn't too bad because everyone knew everyone else, and yes, there were a few bad apples. Guess what? they stayed bad, because we followed their progress from local bullying to bigger crimes that eventually wound up with one of them being shot trying to escape a break and enter robbery.
What did I do? When it was time to sent my kids to the "Middle School" I tried it with my oldest and had a never ending series of conferences with the vice principal who talked much and did little. After half a year my oldest went to a Catholic School and continued under more civilized circumstances. Not perfect, but better. No bullying, no fights, and some rules about doing the work. The rest of my kids followed, went to a small chirstian academy at considerable expense from my own pocket, and survived into adulthood. One is in the Navy, now in his 10th year and is a 1st class PO. My oldest is a married homeowner and my youngest two have paying jobs.
Those other three troublemakers: one is dead, the other so thin from drug abuse you can't see him, and the third--has disappeared. I wonder why. I don't know how many of these bloggers are parents, or were, but MY solution is the same as my ancestors who saw Europe going to the dogs in the mid 1800's. They LEFT for better places. We can't save the world. I had enough to do saving my own family. For those who don't care, they get what they deserve. For those who speak from ignorance, ditto.
Meanwhile some of the news media is talking about home schooling. It isn't perfect either, but at least the parents are taking control. None of my kids went to college, except to see what it was like during one of the "college days" seminars. Their attitude was the same as mine: too much meaningless "junk education." When they're ready to move on and learn more, there's support for adult education, and they can pay for it, and RESPECT the investment. Those who are given easy access to funds waste them; if you don't earn something yourself, what can you expect? Good article, John S, but since you're on top of analyses in this field, what do the KIDS that have benefited from school choice say? After all, they're the future voters, aren't they?

Hoisted by your own petard, religiouslib

"brian
speak for yourself.
you may have turned out to be a useless idiot but i will tell sir, that my district is not "churning out useless idiots".

do you have any documentation to back up those statements.
show me test scores.

i mean who do you think is fueling the technological revolution in this country.
those useless idiots from public schools.

most conservatives make decisions on emotions like this with no facts to back them up.

sheesh"

Well argued without a hint of invective, totally supported by hard-hitting facts, and not at all appearing to be an emotional rant.

Did you say(or imply) you were a public school administrator?

Oh, that explains everything.

"Test Scores" from public school systems are not an indicator of success (in life or academically for that matter).

Although in the interest of full disclosure, my SAT Score was a mediocre 1000. When I went to college, I got 3.65 with Honors for my AS and I'll be graduating CumLaude in 2 weeks from Bryant University.

Useless idiot? I don't think so.

Here's another rub: I was homeschooled through high school and turned out just fine. I bet that boils your publicly-funded keister as well.

Public school administrators. Can't live with 'em, can't fire 'em either.

Oh yeah, and when did MIT, generally known as a leader in technological revolution, become a "public school."

27 years later

lilly writes: Wednesday, May, 02, 2007 6:58 PM

By the way, when I left teaching in 1980 (to go back to school and enter another profession) my pay rate was for the maximum educational level my system recognized, and I had ten years of seniority. Guess how much I was making? I still have my last pay slip. $24,000 a year.
------------------------------------
Twenty-seven years later, things have changed a tad, Lilly. Nowadays, teachers of your generation in California sit on the Teachers Union boards and direct hired thugs to beat up women teachers that voice any dissent to the cause while police stand by (on videotape) and watch them abused.

fivo

i swear you are not a rational person.

please provide documentation for your bizarre claim that police watched as hired thugs beat up a woman.

school choice would go a long way

i am a first grade teacher at a private school. so i think i can say a little about how we need to implement school choice, please allow me to explain;
five years ago our wages were frozen (on average private school teachers wages are 61% lower then those in government schools). along with that our medical benefits and tuition benefits were also cut. so now we cannot afford to send our children to the private school which i teach at(go figure). this is causing a dilemna because we are slowly being forced to send our children to government schools. if we implemented school choice then you would have a major influx of families leaving government schools and consequently private schools would be more able to provide scholarships to families that need help getting to private schools. the fact is that government (public) schools and the n.e.a. do not want the competition because they know they would lose hands down.

THE PROBLEM AS I SEE IT

The major problem as I see it is PARENTS. If I got in trouble at school I knew, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that I was in double trouble when I got home. The parental attitude is "You dan't tell little Johnny/Susie that they are disciplined. That's my kid and you had better not even try to tell him/her they have to stay after school, do extra work etc. I raised my kids the way I was raised and one has a disability but the other has a Masters degree but chose to be a stay at home Mom and is raising her two kids the same way. Both have a 3.8 grade average.
As a military recruiter I dealt with kids/parents every day. I recall one young man that needed a waiver due to having a minor juvenile problem. He was told he had to get 3 letters of recommendation. He brought in a letter from a high school counselor that I suspected was written by one of his friends. I called the shchool and talked with the counselor and was astounded when he told me that he had actually written the letter.
When we have these kind of teachers protected by the teachers unions the situation looks kind of hopeless.

rl

religiouslib writes: Thursday, May, 03, 2007 11:57 AM
fivo
i swear you are not a rational person.

please provide documentation for your bizarre claim that police watched as hired thugs beat up a woman.
------------------------------
That would be because you just know everything and us non-elected peons obviously are ignorant savages.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/union_thugs_attack_in_la.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1510862/posts

(See, this is where you ignore anything that doesn't have a link you approve to substantiate it).

Contact any archive service for news reports during the late 2005 elections where the California Teachers Union spent 80 million dollars on political ads to fight the governor and less than 1% of their budget on actual contracts negotiation; you know, that thing they supposedly were formed to provide.

http://educationwonk.blogspot.com/2005/03/union-unaccountability-cta-edition.html

The teachers union also forced a $180 raise of dues permanently to pay for the loans taken out to act as a political action committee instead of a contracts negotiator. During that highlighted time there were well-documented and videotaped records of the union sending thugs out to hit and abuse the protesting teachers in from of union headquarters while the cops just look on doing nothing. I was at the petition signing for one of the issues at a local radio station and the teachers union had protesters there spouting profanities

As for the other points about religion, I mixed a series of your comments in reflection of that summary. I can break them out separately if that would make the emphasis easier to follow. However, as you reflected to brian that money seems to be the best indicator of achievement (Apple and Google references) I surmise that indulging that thread will fall on further deaf ears.

You can believe what you wish but the parents in my county are dealing with 50% plus illegal immigrants that are providing zero tax-base but drawing the majority of the public funds to support illegal occupation of this country. They are operating in conjunction with government officials from the Executive branch to the local school system and are directly responsible for hiring unqualified school superintendents and destroying the careers of good administrators. But, what happens when they hired someone so bad that he was fired in seven months? You hire the racially motivated recruiters again to find the next superintendent.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/education/20070428-9999-6m28ysidro.html

There are massive problems inserting themselves into the education system in California. Unfortunately, the only positions we seem to have trouble manning are actual teachers.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/trivalleyherald/localnews/ci_5779477

http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_5757580

http://contracostatimes.com/opinion/ci_5784356

Must be those excellent standards and impeccable working conditions. Maybe they're trying to find some place to locate where liberals actually base decisions on facts and not emotions.

School Choice

I joined this site to observe what nonsense conservatives could give for their opinions.
I taught school for eight years before going back to school and entering the medical field. The problem kids I dealt with were like that only because their parents were derelict in training them before they entered school. Schools get what they get. (Sounds like Rummey) Parents let TV be the plugged in drug, spend little time with them being examples for good behavior, drink and smoke and than wonder why the kids grow up with abuse and can't control either. Few parents have a good communicative relationship with their children that are trouble makers. Society then expects the schools to turn their little monsters into model students. One of the facts that few really understand is that children, after they enter school, recognize that their peers are going to be the ones they will associate with the rest of their lives and even though parents will somehow attempt to force them in a path of acceptability, when the situation arises that the parent has no longer a hold these children, they will do as they please. You don't want sex education taught? Well, they will get sex education from TV, peers, music, movies, and advertising and any other source that is available. You conservatives won't like it but that's the way it is. You play a blame game that doesn't fly in the face of reality. Schools that teach "abstinence only" still have students having sex. Areas where the most churches and most abstinence taught have a high rate of teen pregnancy.
You send young soldiers into battle and few of you have ever been in combat. Viet Nam should never have happened. and if you spent the time to dig into the research on the events during WW II in Asia you would find out the allies betrayed the Vietnamese people and subsequently 50000+ soldiers died for "belief in domino theory" that was nonesense. Now America is embroiled in a Middle East debacle because neocons, conservatives and stupid Democrats didn't take the time to research how American Foreign policy underpinned the events that have more American soldiers being maimed and killed to satisfy the greed of the military industrial complex, (General Dwight Eisenhower warned America and was ignored) and oil companies that are bleeding the majority of Americans and small business dry due to high prices which just allow these oil companies to get higher and higher profits. Alternate energy sources has been thwarted by conservatives and we could thumb our nose at the Middle East if the tax money America spent was used to place solar panels on every house in the sun belt. My energy costs came down from $500.00
per month to about $150.00 or less. You jump on Liberals but have no ideas that are better. You just criticize liberals which is typical of both liberals and conservatives or any other person when they don't have a better way of dealing with the issues that really face America instead of wedge issues such as gay rights, abortion, flag burning, or any other issue that distracts the American people from looking at what really affects them like job security, health care, loss of children in war, corrupt politicians from both sides of the fence, Loss of freedoms to make own decisions about what we watch read or do as long as that behavior doesn't effect others. Don't throw religion or morals at me because a madame Madame in Washington DC is under indictment and there are many politicians and other persons of high standing that used her services. Livingston, Gingrinch, Hyde, and other politicians were hypocrites when it came to “family values” I would bet the farm that there many more. Even your Bennett admitted a gambling addiction. Moral value?
I’m going to stop but I am getting sick and tired of conservatives of both political stripe telling what I should do and how I should behave when your all total HYPOCRITES.