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Wednesday, January 17, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Losing Sleep over the Trade Deficit?
by John Stossel
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I'm told to worry about the trade deficit.

Commentators and populist politicians are wringing their hands. The trade deficit is a "malignant tumor in the intestines of the U.S. economy," says Pat Buchanan. Lou Dobbs is very upset that "We're borrowing about $3 billion a day just to pay for our imports"!

Economists had taught me that the trade deficit is not a big deal. (The budget deficit may be a big one, but that's a different issue.) But with all the pundits and politicians alarmed, I began to wonder if I was out of touch.

Then I thought about my local supermarket. I buy stuff from the Food Emporium every week. I spend thousands of dollars a year there. But the supermarket never buys anything from me. Not one thing.

And yet that is no problem. It's better than no problem -- it's fantastic! Imagine if I could only buy from the store to the extent that it needed my services. I'd starve. That would be barter, and mankind dumped barter for the money economy eons ago precisely because it is so inconvenient.

Trade statistics obscure reality. Individuals exchange only when each expects to benefit. If they didn't expect it, they wouldn't trade. That's true even if one party is American and the other Chinese. Trade is trade.

If we don't care about trade balances at the individual level, why does it matter if in a given year Americans as a group buy more from the Chinese than they buy from us?

It doesn't.

In fact, it's a good thing. Foreigners trade cool products (and capital goods) for paper money. They can do only three things with our dollars: buy American goods and services, save them, or invest in the United States (including buying U.S. government debt).

In other words, most of what foreigners don't spend here, they invest here. The trade deficit is mirrored by the capital-account surplus .

Should we be concerned that foreigners see the U.S. economy as a good place to invest their money? I can't see why. I think we should see it as a wonderful thing: They trust America's future enough to invest in it. Investment creates new products and better jobs.

Especially absurd is Dobbs's idea that the trade deficit means we are in debt to foreigners. Except for the T-bills foreigners buy, this just isn't true. As George Mason University economist Donald Boudreaux wrote in the December issue of The Freeman magazine, "If Mr. Sony uses the $2,000 he receives from selling computers to Americans to buy $2,000 worth of equity in Exxon, the U.S. current-account deficit rises by $2,000, but no real indebtedness is created. No American owes Mr. Sony anything. ... It just ain't so that the so-called trade deficit is debt!"

Boudreaux adds, "If we applaud when citizens of Wisconsin save and invest in software firms in California or orange groves in Florida, why should we not be equally pleased when citizens of Shanghai save and invest in these same American firms?"

Good point, especially when you consider that the only way to shrink the trade deficit is for the government to prohibit us from buying whatever we want.

What the trade fearmongers don't say is that countries with trade surpluses often don't do very well. Japan had a trade surplus all during its long recession, which began in 1990 and is only now ending. By contrast, countries running trade deficits often experience economic booms. A Cato Institute study shows, "Contrary to prevailing assumptions, 'worsening' trade deficits are associated with faster GDP and manufacturing growth and more rapidly declining unemployment, while 'improving' trade deficits are associated with slower GDP and manufacturing growth and rising unemployment.

Adam Smith was right when he wrote, "Nothing, however, can be more absurd than this whole doctrine of the balance of trade."

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John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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I could be wrong.
After all, as I have said, I am not an economist. But doesn't this statement ring a little odd?:

"Foreigners trade cool products (and capital goods) for paper money."

THEY TRADE REAL THINGS FOR PAPER.

It's o.k., Stossel says, they buy things with that paper. You know, like American ports and U.S.-backed debt. Gee, sounds like a great plan for the long-term.

Like I said, maybe I am wrong. Sure, I run a trade deficit with the supermarket, but I run a trade surplus with my employer. At the end of the year, it all balances out, i.e. I save and spend only as much as I earn. If I spend more than I earn, then that means I either (a) took on debt, or (b) sold off principal. Does either sound like a great plan for the future? Either way, I need to divert some of my future income to get back to where I was.

The U.S. doesn't just run a deficit with China. It runs a deficit with practically EVERYONE. We are, overall, in the red.

Count me as one of those losing sleep.

Oh, and...
The U.S. has a third option, I suppose: (c) print more money.

But we all know what happens at the end of that story.

Monty: You are wrong
If reading Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations" is too much for you (I admit, it's a weighty tome, and Enlightenment writing can be dense), then I recommend Thomas Sowell's "Basic Economics." Either way, since you seem determined to post and bloviate on economic topics which you seem not to really understand, it would be a good idea for you to educate yourself. Your fears are understandable, given the general economic illiteracy of the Scribbling Class and of most talking heads (although someone like Robert Reich is, or ought to be, VERY educated, and he's about as wrong as wrong can be), but unenlightened fears are no match for an education.

Economists Are Destroring America
http://WWW.controlcongress.com

Economists, politicians, and executives from both parties have promised American families that “free” trade policies like NAFTA, CAFTA, and WTO/CHINA would accomplish three things:

• Increase wages
• Create trade surpluses (for the US)
• Reduce illegal immigration

Well, their trade policies have been in effect for about 15 years. Let’s review the results:

• Declining real wages for 80% of working Americans (while healthcare, education, and childcare costs skyrocket)
• A record-high 46 million Americans who don’t have health insurance (due in part to declining wages and benefits)
• Illegal immigration out of control
• Soaring trade deficits, much with countries that use slave and child labor
• Personal and national debt both out-of-control
• Global environments threatened by lax trade deal enforcement

Economists Keep Advocating Policies That Aren’t Working

Upon seeing incontrovertible evidence of these negative trade agreement results, economists continue with Pollyannish blather. Some say, “Cheer up! GDP is up and the stock market’s doing fine.” Others say, “Be patient. Stay the course. Free trade will raise all ships.”

Even those economists who acknowledge problems with trade agreements offer us only half-measures—adjusting exchange rates, improving safety nets, and providing better job retraining. None of these will close the wage gap in America—and economists know it.

Why Aren’t American Economists Shouting From Street Corners?

America needs trade deals that support American families and businesses in terms of wage, environmental, and intellectual property abuses. Why aren’t economists demanding renegotiation of our trade deals? There are three primary reasons:

• Economists are too beholden to corporations and special interests that provide them with research grants.
• Economists believe—but refuse to admit—that sacrificing the American middle class is necessary and appropriate to generate gains in third world economies.
• Economists refuse to admit they make mistakes.

Economic Ambulance Chasers

Now more than ever, Americans need their economists to speak truth and stand up to their big business clients. Instead, economists sound like lawyers caught chasing ambulances: they claim they’re “doing it for our benefit”.


Let's consider it...
A mark of the intellectual deficit of the Left that they now have to resort not only to cross-posting, but to cross posting the content of web pages, rather than writing anything themselves.

C'mon, John Konop! Original thoughts? Anything?

Oh, and the point about declining Real Wages is pure baloney, since it doesn't take into account all the various benefits packages. This one has been debunked LONG SINCE

I don't know much....
but don't tell me the decline of wages is balanced by 'benefit packages.' Here in Dallas, the illegal invasion is causing carpenters and other 'blue collar' jobs to have declined by 20% since 2000...and these illegals are taking the jobs by the thousands, daily AND any kind of 'benefit package' if it had any existence...is diminished as well. Talk about basic economics. When you have millions and millions of uneducated, third-worlders who will take any job at sub pay because they're happy to live 40 in a house and knowingly do not pay for car insurance, medical care, feeding their tons of kids free school breakfasts and lunches (all on America's middle class' backs); don't tell me, according to the law of supply and demand, that this makes for better jobs with more benefits for Americans. And then on the other end...'white collar' jobs are being given to H-1B Visa 'owners' who come in at $13k less a year....management often making the American who just lost his job to somebody from Pakistan, train the guy before being booted out the door. Yeah....where's the 'benefit package' in that...this is happening everyday.

And if our El Presidente gets his way...we'll all be one big happy family with the North American Union.

Deficits, debt and delusions
Stossel is, I'm afraid, only half right on this. If the issue were simply that we can afford to buy more goods from the rest of the world than other nations can buy from us, okay. We'd be ahead of the game. But the size of our balance of trade deficit reflects the fact that we can't afford much of what we are buying. Stossel quoted and did not dispute the accuracy of the claim by Lou Dobbs that we are borrowing $3 billion a day to support our import habit. That's not to say imports are not good, but simply that we cannot afford all we are importing.

So, yes, it's good that Mr. Stossel and others can buy at the supermarket without having to sell a like amount to the supermarket to achieve an aritifical "balance of trade." But anyone who has to continually borrow to go the supermarket is borrowing not just money but trouble.

Liberals used to justify deficit spending by saying, "We owe it to ourselves." That was true when the Federal Reserve expanded the money supply and the government borrowed from the Federal Reserve and the taxpayers owed it to a bank that while not "ours" in the sense of being publicly owned, was at least a U.S. institution contributing to the U.S. economy. Now we owe much of the debt that supports our balance of trade deficit to China and other countries including Mexico, a country so poor, its inhabitants risk their lives to come here in pursuit of a better life.

Perhaps all the nations participating in the "global economy" could benefit from a little old fashioned fiscal conservatism.

Great article!
Reading some posts above just shows more and more why they need to teach Economics in school... because most people do not have a clue and it is obvious reading the posts above that bash free trade.

Seriously, read a couple books on economics and then apply some common sense. Its not that hard!

Health insurance
John Konop writes:
• A record-high 46 million Americans who don’t have health insurance (due in part to declining wages and benefits)

Okay, before we get our undies in a bunch let's examine this one like the looney left doesn't want us to do.

How many of that alleged 46 million do not have insurance as a matter of personal choice? Half? More than half? All?

What do we call it when the law says that hospitals can not turn away someone who presents themself at an emergency room? I'd call it insurance legally created at our expense.

Re: John Konop. Once a person lies directly or through knowing misleading statistics, then everything he says after that is disbelieved and suspect.

Common sense
Again, as I freely admit, though some here would seem to think they've "caught me," I am not an economist. But here is what seems to me to be common sense.

If "'worsening' trade deficits are associated with faster GDP and manufacturing growth and more rapidly declining unemployment, while 'improving' trade deficits are associated with slower GDP and manufacturing growth and rising unemployment," then does that not mean we should hope for our trade deficit to "worsen" into infinity? If not, then what is the point at which the trade deficit transitions from a net positive to a net negative?

It seems to me that there would need to be such a point between $0 and $infinity, since otherwise Americans would eventually be consuming 100% of the world's production in exchange for paper money. I suspect the answer may be something along the lines of: The transition point is when foreigners lose enough faith in the economy that they no longer can find enough dollar-denominated investments in which to park their paper money. If that is the answer, then doesn't a worsening trade deficit hasten the arrival of that transition point by producing too many dollars chasing the same investments (perhaps leading to consumer-wounding inflation, a scarcity of good investments, etc.)?

Anyone care to explain this, i.e. whether, in the learned opinions of all the professional economists here, the OVERALL trade deficit could ever grow so large as to be problematic?

China
Tyler Cowen slayed the feared China bogey back in September: http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=FB0F10F73D550C748CDDA00894DE404482.

pitbull
Libs forget to mention that the DOW hit another record yesterday.

IT'S A MIRACLE!

Only a few days after the libdolts took over, the ECONOMY REBOUNDED!

pitbull
We can't compete against Asia simply because they refuse to follow international laws. I've seen on numerous occasions where Thais have set up video cameras in theatres to film new releases. I watched some joker do it in Bangkok when I was watching Saving Private Ryan when it came out. Next day, DVD's all over the place.

Your point about the bureaucracy is also correct. Since politicians and enviros don't have to work for a living, they have plenty of time to impose their BS on the rest of us.

Thanks Fletch
Well done expansion of Stossel's points. As Dirty Harry said "a man's got to know his limitations". While I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I do know when I encounter them, which is why until brilliant minds like Dr. Walter Williams or Dr. Tom Sowell start sounding the alarm bells about the deficit's effect on the U.S. economy then it can't be much of a problem. I do know that they both think our deficit taxation "problem" is not as serious as our govt. spending problem.

Fletch on Konop - - -
quoth Fletch: "Of what possible value is posting the same FACTUALLY WRONG garbage time and time and time again in response to multiple columns?"

I believe this is one of the definitions for "troll".

quoth Fletch: "Wouldn't your time be better spent actually getting a clue?"

Clues cost extra.

sbmcgraw
Your wages are declining due to the fact that with an influx of illegal immigrants, whose wages are not regulated by the federal gov't (no minimum), wages for everyone fall to their natural level. So if anything, the government is screwing you by saying you have to work for a set minimum or more, or not work at all. Mexican laborers do not play by those rules. In fact, the rule disadvantage which you suffer turns into their advantage and encourages them to migrate here.

Freedom Writer - who is borrowing 3 billion USD per day to fund imports? Even if we concede that a trade "deficit" siphons off US currency, we are arguing from the supposition that their is a finite amount of US currency available, and no more, unless the government prints it. Anybody familiar with how banks increase the supply of money?

Fletch
Thanks for the patient instruction. Mucho thanks for slapping Konop down. I am sick of seeing the same junk over and over again. I plan to purchase some books by Drs.Sowell and Williams so I can be educated on these subjects. Also, thanks for keeping the level of civility high.

sbmcgraw: More to the point...
... while you, as a carpenter in Texas, may be witnessing a real decline in how much you can earn, this does not address the main point: the oft-quoted statistic of "declining real wages" is, imn the aggregate, not true. This is the problem with anecdotal evidence. I have no doubt that there are people in this country who make less now, all factors considered, than they did, say, in the Clinton years.

BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE IN THE AGGREGATE.

The fact is, there is no economic solution that will make everything better for everyone. There just isn't. It is the nature of a market economy that there is both profit AND loss; the loss directs resources away from less efficient uses of resources.

However, the point which History bears out over and over is that a market economy, in directing resources to their most efficient uses, is going to make more things better for more people than any other solution.

You have my sympathies if you coasted along on an illusory prosperity for a while that is now being equalized; I am sure it sucks, and sucks hard. I am sure statistics are of absolutely no consolation.

But your specific circumstances don't change the facts.

CVN65
Sowell's "Basic Economics" is invaluable.

Trade What
I doubt most could read Sowell's books past page two. As for whether or not the numbers matter of course they do. Otherwise why keep them? For what purpose? Period comparisons? Why?

Fletch
I loved Basic and Advanced Economics. Have you read Vision of the Annointed? I ordered a copy yesterday, its supposed to be one of Sowell's best. If you get an opportunity you might want to read Ludwig von Mises The Anticapitalist Mentality. From what I've read it seems a little flawed, but then really you only need to read some of the asinine posts on this website to confirm von Mises' arguments. He lacks the clarity of writing that Sowell and Williams have.

Also, CVN65, you might like to read the Undercover Economist by Tim Harford. Its a pretty straightforward explanation of everyday, consumer microeconomics. I've actually got it on CD and have listened to about half of it. Freakonomics by Steven Levitt is also worth a read for its extension of economic rationale into everyday life.

books
I started Road to Serfdom and am embarrassed to say that I was unable to finish it - it was a little dry, and I was probably a little sleep deprived to boot. Someday I would like to be able to boast that I completed Atlas Shrugged, but the last 800 page tome I attempted to read, Lonesome Dove, ended abruptly at page 500 or so, and I have been hesitant to begin any other books in excess of about 250 pages.

How Bad Trade Deals hurt Americans
How Bad Trade Deals are Destroying the Middle Class

http://www.controlcongress.com

This is from “Skeptical Economist”.

So far, our global economic failures show up mainly as discontented workers in areas hard hit by import competition. However, the real problems (and the worker problems are quite real) are considerably worse

The United States as a nation is far from self-sufficient or anything close. Back in Kennedy era, imports and exports were in the range of 4 to 5% of GDP. The US economy was closes to autarkic. These days comparable numbers are imports are 16.22% of GDP and exports are 10.46% of GDP. Per se, there is nothing wrong with trade growing as a percent of GDP. However, the brutal reality is that our nation can no longer pay its bills. Imports of goods are almost double exports of goods. We enjoy a small (and shrinking) surplus on services and are now in deficit for payments (profits received from overseas US investments versus profit earned by foreign investment in the US).

If you could only pay half of your bills, would you think you were doing well? Would that be OK? Might some question of economic failure arise? Wouldn’t virtually every American see it that way? Yet, when it comes to our country, it is somehow OK. Of course, it is not.

If you could only pay half of your bills, your debts would be soaring. Guess what? So are the debts of the United States. Of course, the national debt is growing and more than 50% owned by foreigners. However, the debts of ordinary Americans are rising as well and a growing percentage are owned by foreigners as well.

The trade debate is usually depicted in terms of “cramped, narrow minded, locally oriented protectionists” versus “visionary, open minded, free trading globalists”. This caricature is largely correct. However, that doesn’t mean the protectionists are wrong. With America going broke, they are at least on the right side of the issue..

Thomas Friedman demonstrated again the cluelessness of our elites on trade today. His piece “China: Scapegoat or Sputnik” repeated the usual mantra about education solving our problems. His actual words were “health care, portability of pensions, entitlements, and lifelong learning”. Nice ideas, but will they really help middle aged workers without jobs? No, of course not, but the deeper problem is they won’t fix our trade problems either. We will simply go broke faster. What words were missing? How about “overvalued currency”, “RMB versus the dollar”, “China’s lack of currency flexibility”, etc. All notably missing.




Oh the irony
First we have Fletch and jcthomasva and others discussing books by actual INTELLECTS, men who have accomplished something in the field of economics. A discussion of the great books ensues - just the sort of intellectual give-and-take that pseudo-intellectual campus Leftists claim to crave.

This discussion of great books is interrupted by a mindless cross-post of anti-intellectual dreck. Said dreck completely ignores the wisdom in those great books, in favor of canned Leftist talking points completely devalued and debunked by the lessons of History. No discussion is offered, no original thinking, not even a discussion of the points, only the cut-and-paste of the brainless.

What a delicious irony.

Fletch and Feel Good Economics
Fletch

I am sure you know that the father of free market wrote in his book Wealth of Nation that the invisible hand of capitalism does not work if labor does not have rights. And I sure you know by pitting American against illegal immigrants or overseas child and slave labor you are supporting FUEDALISM, SOCIALISM OR COMMUNISM.

BTW when we confronted China about not following free market principals they told us they are SOCIALIST!!!!!! Please do not let facts get in the way of your with your feel good economics!!!


China: We Are Socialists!
Beijing (FORTUNE) – Senior U.S. officials, led by Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson, arrived inside the Stalinist-style Great Hall of the People Thursday morning, briefed and breakfasted and eager to offer guidance to Chinese leaders on how to become a “responsible stakeholder” in the global economy

According to the English translation of her remarks, she repeated six times that China was “sticking to” its “new path of industrialization,” and three times that China was “continuing to improve” on reforms already in place. Substantial free-market change wasn’t part of the equation. “By following a path of building socialism with Chinese characteristics in an independent and self-reliant manner,” she said, “we have scored glorious achievements that attracted worldwide attention.”

At debate is China not playing by the rules of the trade agreement.

CNN-But Paulson said earlier this week China could and should do more to reduce its massive trade surplus and revalue its currency. And a WTO report released Monday complained bitterly about continued rampant counterfeiting and piracy, policies limiting imports and regulatory barriers to U.S. service companies

“We see troubling indications that China’s momentum toward reform has begun to slow,” US Trade Representative Susan Schwab, a participant in this week’s meeting, wrote in the Financial Times.

Konop's doing better!
Now he's at least addressing his boilerplate to specific individuals, thus creating the barest appearance of actual debate. It doesn't change the fact that he's really not engaging in any actual intellectual process, except insofar as he's identifying who might be providing the most effective job of deploying the facts that dig the ground right out from under him.

FERGUS BACKS STOSSEL OVER SMITH?
I notice when you have to defend your lack of basic knowledge of Free Market economics you are lost in sound bites. I WILL GO REAL SLOW THIS TIME. PLEASE TELL ME HOW YOU’RE SUPPORT OF CHILD AND SLAVE DOES NOT VIOLATE THE ADAM SMITH PRINCIPAL OF THE INVISABLE HAND? BTW DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ADAM SMITH? DO YOU FOLLOW STOSSEL ECONOMICS OVER THE FATHER OF THE FREE MARKET?

Konop
I am pleased to see that you have actually condescended to write for yourself now, even if your writing is laden with misspellings and grammar errors, thus making it rather painful to wade through. Also, the all-caps thing is a bit of a slog, but you get marks for effort, which is new and different.

To be honest, I didn't really *read* your posts before; I tend to dismiss canned arguments out of hand. But if you can, in your own words, elaborate on your thesis that free trade equals slavery, without resorting to cutting and pasting, why then I would be delighted to consider your reasoning, such as it may be.

Have away.

ADAM SMITH CALLS FLETCH “IGNORANT”
The 18th century economist Adam Smith noted the imbalance in the rights of workers in regards to owners (or "masters"). In The Wealth of Nations, Book I, chapter 8, Smith wrote:

We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate...

[When workers combine,] masters... never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combinations of servants, labourers, and journeymen.

BTW if you read economic blogs you would know you are wrong about your facts. I will be happy to gave you the sources if you want, but most are widely known. The most laughable is WARREN BUFFET and ALAN GREENSPAN both issued warnings about our TRADE DEBT AND NATIONAL DEBT. BTW THAT IS WARREN THE BILLIONAIRE NOT JIMMY THE SINGER. TRY GOOGLE YOU WILL FIND IT YOURSELF.



Konop: PS
Having just read Fletch's response to your canned dreck, I would continue to extend my invitation to express yourself in your own words...

... but would you really want to bother? Seems like he did a fairly effective job of shredding you. You might just want to go cower somewhere and lick your wounds instead.

FERGUS TAKES FLETCH OVER SMITH?
It is hard to argue economics if you guys do not know the topic. I will give you one more article to help you. The issue about trade is not liberal or Conservative because there are many on both sides that have different opinions. This may be a hard concept for you to understand since you did noy understand the post by Stossel went after two Conservatives Dobbs and Buchanan by another Conservative light weight Stossel. Try reading about the topic of economics without talking points before making a comment.

A Brief History of the Post-Autistic Economics Movement

Theories, scientific and otherwise, do not represent the world as it is but rather by highlighting certain aspects of it while leaving others in the dark. It may be the case that two theories highlight the same aspects of some corner of reality but offer different conclusions. In the last century, this type of situation preoccupied the philosophy of science. Post-Autistic Economics, however, addresses a different kind of situation: one where one theory, that illuminates a few facets of its domain rather well, wants to suppress other theories that would illuminate some of the many facets that it leaves in the dark. This theory is neoclassical economics. Because it has been so successful at sidelining other approaches, it also is called “mainstream economics”.
From the 1960s onward, neoclassical economists have increasingly managed to block the employment of non-neoclassical economists in university economics departments and to deny them opportunities to publish in professional journals. They also have narrowed the economics curriculum that universities offer students. At the same time they have increasingly formalized their theory, making it progressively irrelevant to understanding economic reality. And now they are even banishing economic history and the history of economic thought from the curriculum, these being places where the student might be exposed to non-neoclassical ideas. Why has this tragedy happened?

Many factors have contributed, but three especially. First, neoclassical economists have as a group deluded themselves into believing that all you need for an exact science is mathematics, and never mind about whether the symbols used refer quantitatively to the real world. What began as an indulgence became an addiction, leading to a collective fantasy of scientific achievement where in most cases none exists. To preserve their illusions, neoclassical economists have found it increasingly necessary to isolate themselves from non-believers.

Second, as Joseph Stiglitz has observed, economics has suffered “a triumph of ideology over science”.1 Instead of regarding their theory as a tool in the pursuit of knowledge, neoclassical economists have made it the required viewpoint from which, at all times and in all places, to look at all economic phenomena. This is the position of neoliberalism.

Third, today’s economies, including the societies in which they are embedded, are very different from those of the 19th century for which neoclassical economics was invented to describe. These differences become more pronounced every decade as new aspects of economic reality emerge, for example, consumer societies, corporate globalization, economic induced environmental disasters and impending ecological ones, the accelerating gap between the rich and poor, and the movement for equal-opportunity economies. Consequently neoclassical economics sheds light on an ever-smaller

proportion of economic reality, leaving more and more of it in the dark for students permitted only the neoclassical viewpoint. This makes the neoclassical monopoly more outrageous and costly every year, requiring of it ever more desperate measures of defense, like eliminating economic history and history of economics from the curriculum.

But eventually reality overtakes time-warp worlds like mainstream economics and the Soviet Union. The moment and place of the tipping point, however, nearly always takes people by surprise. In June

China? India? economy?
Hmmm?
Now that China and India, both not the greatest in how they treat workers, have over 500 million middle-class and growing by millions daily, we have a huge problem. Those people are driving much of the economy now of Asia.

There are now some saying that even if the U.S. has a recession, it will no longer cause a world wide recession because the middle-class has grown so much in Asia.

They are now the number one consumer for many of the factories that located there to export to us. GM is making millions in China selling to the Chinese, while losing money here.

They have 1 and 1/2 the cell phones now that we do and computer sales are doubling about every 2 years. Many Americans that have mutual funds in their 401K and Ira's are making a lot of money because those funds own Chinese telecom and internet stocks.

By 2012 China alone is expected to have 500 million middle-class. They are buying homes like crazy, building entire new cities, saving 40% of even $1 to $2 an hour wages.

One new city being built from the ground up, Harbin, is 9 million, the size of New York City, to replace the old city whose infrastructure is too far gone to support all the new growth.

They are buying luxury goods like crazy (even hair transplants are a hot item) and Hong Kong is ranked number one in economic freedom. This year we are better, up from 12th to 4th and finally back ahead of Ireland. So we have made some progress. (China mainland is still like 111th in the ranking).

Look up the ETF funds for Singapore, Hong Kong, So. Korea, Malaysia and see how the reflect the growth of Asia.

I still think this nation is in a lot of economic trouble. With the value of the dollar tied to the sale of oil in dollars by OPEC and the recent announcements of a change to sales in euros by a couple nations, and other nations stating they won't buy more dollar assets and some saying they will sell some off, further drops in the dollar may come.

To counter that the fed may raise interest rates but if they do, it may trigger a recession.

Should be an interesting couple of years ahead of us.

Konop
No, I don't choose Fletch over Smith... I choose Fletch's interpretation of Smith over *yours*.

Big difference, monkey boy.

Nice to see you refuse my challenge, and go back to quoting the words of others. What a chicken***t lightweight you are.

Pitbull IRAQ LOGIC
If we give people who have been killing each other for 1000s of years Democracy they will think like us, is the logic why Iraq is a mess.

You are using the same logic with China. They told that they are SOCIALIST FIRST. Like you guys I can only present information I cannot make you think.

Economist are the problem
A Brief History of the Post-Autistic Economics Movement points out economist like you are the problem!!!!

FLETCH IS WRONG AGAIN
The section from Smith was about labor.Now I know why they say in that article A Brief History of the Post-Autistic Economics Movement they point out economist like you are the problem.

READ REAL SLOW AGAIN

The 18th century economist Adam Smith noted the imbalance in the rights of workers in regards to owners (or "masters"). In The Wealth of Nations, Book I, chapter 8, Smith wrote:

We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate...

[When workers combine,] masters... never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combinations of servants, labourers, and journeymen.

FLETCH IS WRONG AGAIN PART 2
Benefit cost is going up not benefits going out to employees. Anyone like me who runs a company knows the difference. That was also in the article of how economists like you are not taught to be critical thinkers.

The truth is coverage is going down and co-pays are going up as well as contributions. The reason is healthcare cost is rising faster than companies can absorb. BTW ask people on this blog if their benefits are getting better or worse. Once again this issue is widely known.

Konop
Which counts as a better example of "critical thinking," I wonder... reading, digesting the meaning of what one reads, and then talking about it in one's own words... or cutting and pasting the words of others wholesale?

Hmmmmm...

FERGUS "INTERPRETATION" OF ENGLISH
Konop
No, I don't choose Fletch over Smith... I choose Fletch's interpretation of Smith over *yours*.

FERGUS PLEASE TELL ME HOW SMITH WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT LABOR IN THE ARTICLE LIKE FLETCH CLAIMS? TRY DOING WITHOUT TALKING POINTS!

READ REAL SLOW AGAIN

The 18th century economist Adam Smith noted the imbalance in the rights of workers in regards to owners (or "masters"). In The Wealth of Nations, Book I, chapter 8, Smith wrote:

We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate...

[When workers combine,] masters... never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combinations of servants, labourers, and journeymen.

Konop, you nit
Of course Smith was talking about labor, Fletch is not denying that... but that is a very vague classification. "Labor" is an issue that is relevant in a whole host of economic issues, from free trade, which was the topic of the current discussion, to wage floors, which was not. This question of context is what makes Fletch's point and shreds yours.

FLETCH IS WRONG AGAIN PART 3
You scare me this section is widely used by economist arguing for trade unions. This is straight out of the encyclopedia. The only argument I have ever seen is whether you need trade unions to guarantee the rights. Yet you are the first I have seen not to even understand the debate. Personally I am neutral on unions but against child and slave labor.

READ FOR YOURSELF SLOW


The 18th century economist Adam Smith noted the imbalance in the rights of workers in regards to owners (or "masters"). In The Wealth of Nations, Book I, chapter 8, Smith wrote:

We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate...
[When workers combine,] masters... never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combinations of servants, labourers, and journeymen.

As indicated in the preceding quotation, unions were illegal for many years in most countries. There were severe penalties for attempting to organise unions, up to and including execution. Despite this, unions were formed and began to acquire political power, eventually resulting in a body of labour law which not only legalised organising efforts, but codified the relationship between employers and those employees organised into unions. Even after the legitimisation of trade unions there was opposition, as the case of the Tolpuddle Martyrs shows.

Many consider it an issue of fairness that workers be allowed to pool their resources in a special legal entity in a similar way to the pooling of capital resources in the form of corporations.
The right to join a trade union is mentioned in article 23, subsection 4 of the UDHR, which also states in article 20, subsection 2. that "No one may be compelled to belong to an association". Prohibiting a person from joining or forming a union, as well as forcing a person to do the same (e.g. "closed shops" or "union shops", see below), whether by a government or by a business, is generally considered a human rights abuse. Similar allegations can be levelled if an employer discriminates based on trade union membership. Attempts by an employer, often with the help of outside agencies, to prevent union membership amongst their staff is known as union busting.

Micro vs. Macro
While Stossel's argument betrays little understanding of the distinctions between micro and macroeconomic principles, he seems to come down somewhere close to the truth.

I am troubled by these trends. As someone pointed out earlier, there is an eventual breaking point. But history teaches us one thing: things change.

Things will change in India, China, and here. Unions and rampant regulation have cost America many valuable production jobs by high-pricing us out of the game. However, labor abroad will someday demand its piece of the pie. This will put upward pressure on the costs and prices of the goods they ship us, and balance will eventually be restored.

But this is predicated on our shifting from the old labor and big government values, which are currently decimating the American auto industry.

One definition of a third world economy is one which exports mostly raw materials and imports finished goods. We seem to be there now. Does that qualify us as a third world nation? If so, why are all the "first world nations" so jealous of us?

FERGUS TAKE FOOT OUT OF MOUTH
READ ABOVE POST

Konop -- Brilliant Strategy!
If at first a cut-n-paste does not succeed, cut-n-paste the same thing over again!

Maybe if we read it REAL SLOW AGAIN the meaning will change, eh?

FLETCH VERSE THE WORLD
ARE YOU SAYING THIS SECTION IS NOT USED AS A DEBATE ABOUT TRADE UNIONS AND WORKERS RIGHTS? ARE YOPU SAYING THE ENCYCLOPEDIA IS WRONG AND YOU ARE RIGHT?

DID YOU SLEEP DURRING THAT PART OF CLASS. YOU CANNOT FIND ONE ECONOMIST WHO WOULD AGREE WITH YOU ON EITHER SIDE.

KONOP
DUDE, YOUR CAPSLOCK IS STUCK AGAIN! TAKE YOUR KEYBOARD TO THE REPAIR SHOP POST HASTE!

UncaALBY THE STRATEGY
The strategy was to give FLETCH a partial economical article on the topic to proof that he was making it up and using credentials instead of facts. It is an old business trick when you do not trust the source. They always hang themselves.

If you read the article you might of figured it out.

FLETCH IS WRONG AGAIN PART 4
Before I waste my time showing you all the proof that you do not even know your what you are talking about read this link. If you google you find many economist debating this issue via Adam Smith.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_499.shtml

Fletch v. Konop
You know, I took a look at that site at onlinejournal.com.

Clearly written by a socialist trying to make Adam Smith into a socialist.

I'm not even an economist, yet, I'm fairly sure that with a little effort, I could tear that article apart.

Konop -- give it up dude. And get that capslock fixed. It annoys people.


Conservative Americans
UncaAlby

Would you call Paul Criag Roberts, Pat Buchanan, Lou Dobbs, Tom Tancredo, Walter Jones, Charlie Norwood,Colson Socialist?

I would say they are Americans and you are the Socialist.



All have made simular comments about Child and slave labor.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ChuckColson/2007/01/16/necessary_fanaticism

FLETCH IS WRONG AGAIN PART 5
How Adam Smith Would Handle China
by Patrick J. Buchanan
July 24, 1998

House Republicans who enjoy sporting Adam Smith ties should read a little more Adam Smith. In at least four cases, the father of free trade wrote, it must be "advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign (imports)," i.e., impose tariffs...

As America was annexing the Philippines in 1898, preparing to send a U.S. army to crush Filipino resistance to the new American empire, William Graham Sumner gave a speech titled, "The Conquest of the United States by Spain."

"(W)e are submitting to be conquered by her on the field of ideas and politics," said Sumner. "If we believe in liberty, as an American principle, why do we not stand by it? Why are we going to throw it away and enter upon a Spanish policy of domination?"

Today, someone should write a speech titled, "The Conquest of the United States by China." For consider how we are corrupting ourselves, chasing the receding rainbow of "the China trade."

Scientists at U.S. satellite companies have gone up to the line, maybe over it, in helping China perfect rockets that can carry nuclear warheads. U.S. corporations like Boeing have become lobbyists and apologists for Beijing. Republicans, who once prided themselves on standing with the Reagan Doctrine of containment-and-rollback of the Evil Empire, now prattle about how trade will transform China.

Through trade, they say, we will build a Chinese middle class that will demand change; political reform will follow economic reform. The core doctrine of this free-trade cult: "Commerce shall make you free!"

So, retailers lobby Congress to ensure their access to cheap toys "Made in China," unaware those toys are produced in factories run by the Peoples Liberation Army. Do they not know what the PLA does with its dollars? It buy weapons to deal with a Seventh Fleet that will one day have as its sailors the very boys getting all those toys. Irony of ironies, many of the gifts American Christians give one another on the birthday of their Savior are made in factories using the forced labor of Chinese Christians, imprisoned for their faith.

We are not changing China; China is changing us.

By year's end, China will have run up $200 billion in total trade surpluses with America in the Clinton era. At whose expense has this windfall come? Communist China's gigantic trade surpluses with the United States -- now running at $1 billion a week! -- have come at the expense of Free China (Taiwan) and Free Asia, which have been crowded out of U.S. markets by the Mainland's conscript labor.

Between 1992 and 1997, China's sales of footwear to the United States soared by $4 billion a year; South Korea's fell $1.3 billion. China's sales of toys and sporting goods soared $6 billion. Taiwan's fell by $700 million. China's sale of telecommunications parts and equipment rose $157 million. Japan's fell by that sum. China's sale of parts for radio broadcast receivers rose $1.1 billion a year from '92 to '97, Japan's, South Korea's and Taiwan's fell as much.

The United States has shifted purchases away from friends and allies to people who behave like enemies. Why is a Republican Party that presided over America's victory in the Cold War endorsing a trade policy that favors Asian Communists over Asia's democrats?

House Republicans who enjoy sporting Adam Smith ties should read a little more Adam Smith. In at least four cases, the father of free trade wrote, it must be "advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign (imports)," i.e., impose tariffs. Among Smith's reasons were "the defense of the country," "for the encouragement of domestic industry," for "revenge" and "retaliation" on nations that impose tariffs on one's own exports -- and to break open foreign markets.

Today, tariffs and taxes on U.S. exports entering China average around 30 percent. If the GOP were true to Smith, it would strip China of MFN and impose on Beijing the same tariff levels Beijing imposes on us -- both as retaliation, and to crack open the Chinese market to U.S. farmers and manufacturers. In 1997, we sold China a pathetic $13 billion worth of goods -- less than we sold to Singapore -- while we bought some 7 percent of China's entire GDP.

What would an Asian trade policy rooted in Smith's ideas and the national interest entail?

First, overturn MFN. Second, place upon China the same tariffs Beijing imposes on us. Third, shift that $63 billion in U.S. purchases last year from Communist China to Free China and Free Asia. Help our friends out of their crisis with trade, not IMF aid. Fourth, negotiate with the Pacific Rim, so that its trade surpluses are used to buy U.S. farm products and weapons to keep the U.S. defense industry humming, and to enable Free Asia to depend less on us, and more on itself, for its future security -- against a predatory China. Call it an America First, friends second and adversaries last trade policy.


Konop
I propose a moratorium on commenting on K's messages. It just incites him to write (er, repeat) again and again, the same thing. Why bother?

Intelligent debate may change the mind of one of the parties so engaged. However, the continued repetition of the same thing is not debate.

Let's just ignore the posts by K. Perhaps he'll get the message. Instead of spending his time re-posting the same thing, he could pick up a book and read.

Minimum wage
How many of you agree with me that the minimum wage is a huge disservice to the wage earner? Once again, it's the government stepping in and telling me what my time is worth. I no longer have the right to compete in the free market of labor.

If I wished to act on my own and undercut my competitors (other workers) - I no longer have the right to do so. Thus, productive and non-productive people are all paid equally at an artifical high rate. There is less incentive to improve by working hard.

This is a government scam enacted only to appease the unions. Ah, the unions. You might say, hey, the unions are paid far more than the minimum wage, aren't they? Yes, but their contracts are indexed to the min wage, therefore, when the min wage goes up, union wages go up automatically. Keep in mind, employers have to pay more for labor and are getting no more for their money. The government is deciding that employers can afford to pay more.

Good ol' Krazy Konop
quoth Konop: "Would you call Paul Criag Roberts, Pat Buchanan, Lou Dobbs, Tom Tancredo, Walter Jones, Charlie Norwood,Colson Socialist?

I would say they are Americans and you are the Socialist."

What? is being American mutually exclusive with being Socialist?

You are certainly free to call me Socialist if you want, 1st Amendment and all that. That certainly proves your ignorance.

Jim -- Minimum Wage
Get with the times, buddy! That was last week's topic!

Check the Stossel archives. January 10th.

UncaALBY a Stossel Graduate
Do you think Paul Criag Roberts, Pat Buchanan, Lou Dobbs, Tom Tancredo, Walter Jones, Charlie Norwood,Colson are Socialist?

I will help you this is a yes or no question. You can add talking points that you may have been taught at STOSSEL U.

BTW do you get the rest of your news at Entertainment Tonight?

Konop - - -
quoth Konop: "Would you call Paul Criag Roberts, Pat Buchanan, Lou Dobbs, Tom Tancredo, Walter Jones, Charlie Norwood, Colson Socialist?"

Yah, I saw your question the first time.

You said they're Americans, as if, somehow, that's maybe supposed to mean they can't be Socialists.

Then you called me a Socialist, a statement of incredible ignorance.

And no, I didn't answer whether I thought those people were Socialists or not. I'm not familiar enough with their words and arguments to make such an assessment. So I stuck to what I know best, which was your statement about me.

Now - - - following in a long-standing Konop tradition, we'll see this posting again worded exactly the same 12 more times under 4 more articles - - - along with some links to some liberal web-sites that not only "prove" that Adam Smith was a Socialist, but so was Napolean, Ghengis Khan, and Julius Caesar's little brother, Melvin.

Other economist

Does anybody here read Richebacher?

He is from the Austrian School of Economics. He sounds like he has a good handle on what's going on with the American economy.

UncaALBY DOES NOT READ
This post links back to Lou Dobbs and Buchanan.

In the Stossel school are you taught not to read?

In Stossel School if it looks good, feels good it must be good.

In Stossel school who needs facts.


I Must Be Getting Paranoid
I'm starting to think that Konop doesn't like either me OR Stossel!

UncaAlby Try Critical Thinking
I do not know you or Stossel. All I know is you read a partial post by Stossel and take the talking points you like and act like it is truth. The strange part is Stossel who has no business background rips Lou Dobbs who is much more qualified to understand business and economics.

The next I know you will start quoting Sponge Bob to make your points. The difference between us is I listen to both sides with real qualifications. You try to find anyone that makes your point as long as you agree with them.

You are the poster child of what is wrong with both parties. A lack of critical thinking from party position is killing our Country. I know it is hard to think for yourself and be a cheerleader.

Fletch, great posts!
"On the other hand, international trade is undertaken by literally millions of individual entities exchanging value for value (otherwise no such transaction would take place). How, then, could millions of individual transactions that do not create a deficit between the parties involved somehow create a massive trade deficit when aggregated? Quite simply, it can’t."

In addition to your point about the voluntary exchange of value, American companies that purchase materials from other countries use those materials in profit-making enterprises.

I realize that the profit doesn't necessarily affect the trade deficit numbers (unless the finished product is sold back to the same destination), but it shows how such transactions help in the creation of wealth while widening the trade deficit.

Those who view economics as a zero-sum game think in terms of exploitation - they assume that for every winner there must be a loser.

However, wealth is CREATED (on both sides) in such voluntary transactions.

A Few Refdorms
Trade and Immigration was debated as one policy before the NAFTA deal blew up. One of the big reasons for NAFTA was to reduce illegal immigration. Since building sweatshops in Mexico with U.S. tax dollars via import export bank did not work both parties avoid the topic.

As for reforms

1) We should have no tariffs and subsidies for any first world Country on both sides that has a real legal and justice system. This BTW is straight from Adam Smith the concept of JUSTICE in his book Wealth of Nations.

2) On third world Countries we put in tariffs to equalize the multiple violations of trade deals via slave labor, environment….. We cannot force them to follow the laws of a civilized society but we should not be part of the exploitation.

3) We take the T-bills that China owns and let them be used in judgments for any company that wins a case against them for Intellectual Property rights theft. In the West if you steal you go to Court. Estimates are that this would put 200 billion back into our economy a year which BTW is close to our trade debt figure with China today.

4) We should change our tax system with a hybrid plan with a low flat tax combined with no write offs and a national sales tax to make it more competitive to do business here.

5) We should make it mandatory for any person immigrated here or living here to buy health insurance and pay all taxes. We should have all immigrants on a payroll/ visa card to make sure they are paying all of the above.

I have much more but this is a good start.
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