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Wednesday, January 03, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Is this any way to help the homeless?
by John Stossel
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Mary Baker and Ruth Neikirk love to cook. What's more, they love to cook for poor people. They do it frequently, preparing meals at home and bringing them to their church in Virginia.

"I love it," Mary says. "I can take a little bit of something, like a soup bone? And I can make a whooole pot of something. Tastes good. With some cornbread you got 'em a meal!"

The people they cook for love it too. But there's a problem. It was "criminal activity." The Fairfax County health department points out that -- horrors -- Mary and Ruth are actually preparing food and serving it to people! Without a license!

That's not safe, said the health department. What if there's food poisoning? Hundreds of pages of regulation say that if you want to serve food to the public, you need a food-manager certificate, a ware-washing machine (with internal baffles), drain-boards, ventilation-hood systems, a sink with at least three compartments, as well as a hand-washing sink, can openers with removable parts, and much more, for page after page.

The county health department wasn't being capricious. It was just enforcing its rules. There had been a complaint. No one had gotten sick, but an "advocate for the homeless" noticed that church kitchens, which appeared sparkling clean to my ABC team, didn't meet "code."

"You've got to be kidding, give us a break," the Rev. Judy Fender told us. "We can fix a nice meal here, but we can't serve it!"

The health department said it was just looking out for the homeless. But did the officials ever think about where street people eat when they don't eat at these churches?

"They've never stopped me from eating out of a dumpster or a trash can," says James, an astute homeless man who understands Henry Hazlitt's "economics in one lesson," namely, look for the secondary results of government policy. The government can close down the church kitchens, but that'll only send the poor to the garbage cans. Is that better?

"Some of them take their jobs just a little too seriously," said James. "They got nothing better to do than sit around and write legislation."

James has put his finger on another important point: the perverse incentives facing bureaucrats, who get no credit if they never meddle in our peaceful activities.

An old, near-toothless man agreed with James. "I thought they was crazy. I mean, they're [the church people] helping people, and they're trying to stop it."

Rev. Fender added, "They've set up a situation that you have to have a $40,000 kitchen to feed someone who's going to get their food from questionable sources at best."

Rev. Kathleen Chesson said her First Christian Church would not obey the rules. "Our agenda is to feed the hungry. We're going to feed the hungry. That's it."

Before I could confront the county officials about this ridiculous situation, the bad publicity had already prompted a reconsideration. "I got up and saw my morning newspaper and was horrified," said Gerry Connolly, who heads the county government. "I think sometimes the rules overpower common sense."

I asked him, What if the health department had been around when Jesus was feeding the poor? "He might have been, you know, cited," Connolly replied with a laugh.

So this story has a happy ending: Connolly exempted churches from the regulations. But let's not celebrate.

"Fairfax is stepping back," James said. "They're saying they're not going to enforce it ... for now. This year. What about next year?"

Again, that's a pretty astute analysis. If you catch the attention of the media, you can bask in your government leader's forgiveness. But what about next year, and what about the rest of us who are still stuck with all the rules?

The rules are well-intended. They're meant to make sure the public is safe. But rule-makers tend to forget that their rules have unintended consequences. And, as James pointed out, eating out of dumpsters is more dangerous than eating at a church without a three-compartment sink.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Well Intended? No.
I refer you to one of Stossell's previous articles from last September:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2006/09/27/big_business_loves_government

Many of these ridiculous rules were put in place at the behest of the existing restaraunts, which already had all of that stuff anyway. The primary purpose it prevent competition from the one-man vendor who sells food from a cart.

So, no, I don't buy the "well-intended" part.

Willful ignorance
As UncaAlby points out above,these rules are for restaurants, which are for profit enterprises that can rationalize whether a $40,000 is worth it. To apply these standards to a church kitchen is assinine. It is obvious that the Fairfax county health dept. has way too many employees and way too little of substance to do. Perhaps these individuals should be laid off if they cannot find anything worthwhile to expend their efforts upon.

WOW!!!
Just think with all the Health Departments are doing to protect us from what? They dont have a clue!!! At least these guys are safe from TACO BELL.

And people want more government????
This is a perfect example that we have way too much government. But there are folks who want more government regulation. What are they smoking?

What are they smoking?
They are smoking nothing.Smoking is bad for your health,remember?

The death of common sense
There was a book written by a Liberal Democrat lawyer (the most dangerous combination imaginable, except -- according to Daddy -- a woman from New Jersey driving a Buick) called "The Death of Common Sense" devoted exactly to this proposition: that people who focus on process end up destroying product.

The best way to get something done is to get your peopel together and tell them what your intended result is, and give them their heads. "We want a 10% rise in charitable giving among our employees," for example, "and let's hear your ideas." Or more practically, "We want a 10% reduction in absenteeism -- now let's get there." The strength of America has always been, from the beginning in 1776, its willingness to listen to good ideas from anywhere and anyone. Rules-driven people insist that ideas can only come from Above and once something is proposed from Above, that's the way it has to be done whether it makes any sense or not.

And in this day and age, of course, you have to keep in mind the circling lawyers just waiting for a jackpot and a stepping stone to Public Office....

P.S. to the church kitchens -- if you invite the working poor and welfare mamas into your kitchens and teach them how to make dinner for eight out of $5.00 worth of ingredients, you will be doing more to alleviate homelessness, overweight and poverty than every program the government may ever invent. For example, you can make a really tasty sweet and sour sauce with a large jar of grape jelly and a big bottle of ketchup. Once they're cooked together you'll never know what went into it and with meatballs made of some meat and more bread crumbs, an egg or two to stick it together, onions to taste, mix with the sauce and pour over a big bowl of rice, and dig in. Serves as many as you like, and all done for about $6.00. You can't buy more than one Happy Meal for that.

Pogo
Walt Kelley's comic strip character said it best.
"We has met 'de enemy an' dey is us".

Over-Regulation
This is just another example of a government with too little substance and a lot of excess manpower. But, Fairfax, VA. is not alone. Where I live, the famous old church "pot luck" dinner where everybody brings a dish is illegal. Health Dept doesn't know what kind of shape that little old lady who baked the pie's kitchen is in. Besides, she probably doesn't have the $40000 worth of required equipment.
I think Health Departments are good things to have, but like most bureaucrats, they lack common sense.

This is not about helping anyone...
This is nothing more than government run amock. Jobs for stupid people. These bureaucratic departments of 'health' and 'safety' are almost always the point of origin when it comes to individual liberty being 'taken away.'

But lest we worry too much about these poor people, fear not; the holidays are over and we can get back to ignoring them the way most of us do the remaining 51 weeks of the year.

Old News
This story is a month old, and the county rescinded the requirement.

Why is Stossil whining about this?

Hate-laws
When the citizens agreed to the hate-laws against smokers, they just emboldened the fascist leaning health department bureaucrats!

Taskwazen
Here in Colorado, some anti-smoking cities complained to the state government that they couldn't compete as smokers would drive to the next city to "wine or dine". So, our RINO Bill Owens & his fellow fascists did outlaw smoking in most "wine & dine" businesses state-wide with one exception - gambling casinos.

lokietek
They never enforced the requirement. It's over. It's done with. It's history. Actually, it's not even history because it never happened.

If anything it's a happy Christmas time story about how the government reacted to feedback from constituents and adjusted accordingly. This is how it's supposed to work.

Reputation is a better motivator...
For businesses of all kinds than any kind of public licensing/inspecting organization like the health department. Ask Taco Bell and Wendy's. Just as Dr Williams wrote, these govt agencies end up in the role of protecting somebody at the expense of somebody else. And when that happens, the door to graft and corruption is opened. Once opened, it is nearly impossible to close. Private consumer advocacy groups and simple word of mouth can do more to keep business honest and competitive than anything an alphabet soup agency is going to do. And that includes psuedo public organizations like the ABA and AMA.

Too much make work
The poor idiots are just trying to make sure they look busy to the liberal chat lines on their work computers.
As ususual libs have not solutions, only ways to shoot down solutions others come up with.

Parker, thank you ...
for the not so gentle slap in the face. We all need to remember that helping people in need is a 24/7/365 command. One of the men in my Life Group from church is deeply involved in a program called Church Under the Bridge (CUTB). Every week, he and some other volunteers, feed in excess of 200 people out in an open area (since the cold weather is upon us, a local downtown church has volunteered it's facilites until spring time). There's a little preaching, a little food, and a lot of love.

Because many of the groups that feed the homeless were taking Christmas Eve day off, my friend expressed concern at one of our group meetings that the CUTB would be overwhelmed by those who normally get fed elsewhere. I helped out for the first time as well as quite a few others and we fed in excess of 300 people. It was extremely rewarding and I'm looking forward to being part of CUTB on a regular basis.

P.S. There are regulations concerning who can prepare and serve the food. A "Food Handlers Permit" is required. Just another source of "revenue" for the local coffers.

The Fear
Liberals are hate filled people. Some are down right pure evil and would do anything to advance their cause. The fear I have is that they would either poison one of these homeless people and blame the church or find one who is already ill and try to blame it on the church... especially if said person dies.

Nothing is below a Liberal...

"Advocate for the homeless"
>an "advocate for the homeless" noticed that church kitchens ... didn't meet "code."<

I'd like to know who this busybody is. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts it was a "caring liberal".

Where's the Ecoli?
It's funny how the places that deal out ecoli are the places that follow health dept codes.
I've never know any family or church who cooks meals for others ever deal out Ecoli.

When will Americans learn, that Government doesn't work and only serves to serve up the death of commonsense.

In 2007, will Americans finally stop rewarding their politicians for their failures.
Will they finally think for themselves instead of following gov.'s "uncommon political correct sense."

Where is the health department when
the Los Angeles City council gives in to the ACLU's demands for the police to leave alone the "homeless" (read vagrant) encampments on the city sidewalks.

Never mind that small business owners with their little import stores around the corner have to put up with the filth and disease, not to mention theft, intimidation of customers, and urine in their doorways.

Or the corner cafe who has to undergo rigerous inspections while some filthy bum harrasses customers just outside the door.

I am pulling my hair out!

Dave, are you really that clueless?
So did you even finish reading the article before criticizing it? I refer to the following:

"If you catch the attention of the media, you can bask in your government leader's forgiveness. But what about next year, and what about the rest of us who are still stuck with all the rules?"

Yes, the city backed down - this year. What about next year? What about the year after that. They chose to exempt churches - for now. But the rules are still on the books, just waiting for some government officials to exert themselves.

One thing I have learned about government - don't EVER underestimate their ability to suddenly, and without warning, become stupid, clueless and callous, relying solely on their "regulations" rather than on common sense.

You need look no further than the "zero-tolerance" policies of many schools and city governments for proof of this, like a straight-A honor student being expelled because they found a butter knife in the bed of his truck.

As Ronald Reagan once stated, "The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

smoking ban
i'm all for the smoking bans, but not for the transfat ban, nor the application of this rule in this instance...

however, i'm sure no one here complains that there are some standards by which we clean our food... and let's not forget that if we let supply and demand figure the whole thing out, a lot of people would be hurt before anything happened at all and all it would do is open up room for more lawsuits...

if there were no standards, money grubbers and lawyers would stand in line waiting to get sick... it's another reason why we have these cleaning standards, so that the courts don't get clogged up... without standards it is much harder to meet a burden of proof in a court... with standards there are still lawsuits, but you can still have the "buyer beware" mindset

full disclosure
i smoke.

Homeless advocate purse strings
This story is about a "homeless advocate" who reported the abuse of non-commercial kitchens to the Health Department. The reality is that the Department had to investigate and go by procedure.

The motive for the "homeless advocate"? Probably sensed a reduction of his government funds if the needs of the homeless population can be met by churches. We see the compassion and good works of the churches as a positive force. He sees them as competition.

The damage done by liberals knows no limit.

Drewrush...
Just because you smoke and still want smoking bans is irrelevent. We all would find life better if certain behaviors were banned. Unfortunately, it is not and should not be for me to tell you what you can or cannot do to yourself. Fortunately, we have freedom of association (or so I am told) in this country. We don't need government banning anything. When they do ban something, it only serves to raise the price and attract the criminal element to provide what people want. I am all for a restaurant or any other business banning tobacco, alcohol, guns, trans fats or anything else they want to ban. If their bans are popular, they may increase business. If not, they may lose business. But let's keep the government out of banning things, PLEASE! Everything legally banned is a freedom lost and a motive for criminal activity.

Great finish, FeedFwd
"Everything legally banned is a freedom lost and a motive for criminal activity." May i add "and increases the size and cost of govt, adding to the taxpayer burden".

Smoking
Smoking is different. It is a freedom that harms other people. Second hand smoke is deadly and can cause all sorts of problems. It is not like most smells that people like or do not but is actually harmful to those around them.

Imagin I had a bull horn. And I liked to blow it right next to my ear all the time. If I am walking down the road and blow that next to my ear while standing near you, it will damage your hearing. Why should you have to pay for my bad habbit? Its a crazy thought... but so is sticking a deadly substance in your mouth and lighting it on fire...

While I do agree on banning smoking in most public places, I think a business should have the option. Let the free market work there. People who do not want to go to a smoky place will not and those who do will.

I also think that places that allow smoking must have serious rules in place to protect people on the outside. So if you smoke in your appartment and it is under mine, you smoke does not come to visit me. Same with a resturaunt or whatever.

But walking down the street I have little choice but to be in the path of your smoke. In a park, in a parking lot, at the door to a building, at a bus stop, or other places that I can not avoid being near you. In those places I should be protected from your harmful actions... and not be dragged down with you.

These are JFK Soup Kitchens.
When President John Kennedy signed the Community Mental Health Centers Act of 1963, it cut off or reduced federal funds to state and federal mental institutions. Thousands of mental patients were let loose on the streets of America without any supervision. The unintended consequences of this "compassionate" act is the mentally ill homeless and the collateral damage of the drug abuse phenomenon that they caused.

Since Herbert Hoover is blamed for the "Soup Kitchens" of the Great Depression, perhaps its time to lay the cause of the present homeless situation where it truly belongs; on the "Last Frontier/Great Society" programs of the 60's.

Brother, can you spare a federal grant?

JSMTexas
What about next year? you ask. There is no requirement next year also. And the year after that also.

There's absolutely nothing to complain about here.

jcdean1978...
Smoking isn't that different. Hang around a paint shop and you will likely inhale more and worse fumes. Work in a refinery or chemical plant and fugitive emissions will likely have as much impact as second hand smoke. Drink most public water and you are likely ingesting stuff that will have as much impact on you as second hand smoke.

Let schools, hospitals, and even apartment complexes decide whether they will permit smoking or not and to what extent. I have no problem with them prohibiting smoking altogether. If hotels and airlines give you a choice, guess what. People will gravitate towards one or the other. They may deviate from their prefernece when they are travelling with a group, but that too is a choice.

When people realized (thanks largely to the airline industry) that it was possible to contain or eliminate smokers, the market began to respond long before government intervention. The availability of non-smoking accomodations became a competitive advantage. Why shouldn't we allow businesses to explore the possibility of catering to the smoking community? In the end, the market will decide.

I meant to note...
What is required to understand the impact of trans fats, smoking, and other toxins is a rational and valid risk analysis. Unfortunately, we face so many risks today and our educational systems are so inadequate that most folks can't do this. They rely on hype from fearmongers like Algore the way our grandparents relied on snake oil salesmen of the past. The difference is that if a snake oil salesman killed somebody, he usually got chased out of town or hanged. Today, the fearmongers have a battery of trial lawyers looking for that one case they can turn into a class action suit and profiteer from it ultimately at the expense of the general public. But when the fearmongers' actions lead to government actions with unintended consequences the public is screwed again.

government charity
This is how government handles effective charity.

Yet the feds steal billions from us each year and give it to charities of their choice, not ours. The charities are picked based on how much they kick back to our so-called representatives. And voters continue to support that.

Consider the alternative of freedom. Government keeps it's dirty hands off your money, and you give to the private charities of your choice. If government stopped stealing our money, far fewer people would need charity. Generous Americans would give far more money to charity because they had much more money. Sounds like a win-win to me.

But we have the government we voted for, so we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

Support the FairTax. Get government out of the business of charity.

http://freedomistheanswer.blogspot.com/

everybody says...
abortion is the litmus issue in politics. How great it would be if we could make the Fair Tax the litmus issue of the day!

Oh Big Brother!
Jesus said that the church was supposed to reach out to the poor. The church was doing just that. Shame on the gov't for butting in. They aren't doing anything to help.

Shame on them - let the church do it's job, which is caring for the poor. The church always does a better job than the government!

Dave - -
Government bureacracies are infamous for taking "revenge" once the limelight has gone elsewhere.

E.g., there was a scandal some years back where the FDA was treating the drug inventions from certain companies more stringently than from other companies, for no apparent reason. They were playing "favorites." There was a mild stink about it, and the FDA mended its ways.

Until the stink died down, and the FDA went back to what it was doing before, only worse so than ever, because NOW THEY'RE MAD.

It's entirely likely that in this case, next year, the Health Department will be waiting to pounce. For the media, it'll be Yesterday's News, so they'll ignore it. Without the limelight, they'll be successful at making the church stop.

He11 hast no fury like a bureaucrat scorned.

Church meals
I would just make the homeless a member of the church and say they were having a private dinner party. If you wanted to eat, put your x on the line and have a plate. Once signed up, they could come back for any of the "eating meetings" as were being held. :)

feedfwd
i had a long substantive reply for you re: the smoking ban (almost two pages in ms word), but then i realized there was a procedural problem with what you've been saying...

you make it sound as if the smoking ban (and transfat ban) were enacted by the city's mayor rather than the city council...

DECEMBER 18, 2002
NYC COUNCIL VOTES
42 to 7 (2 abstentions)
IN FAVOR OF THE SMOKER-FREE CITY
ACT of 2002

that's a headline from 2002... and also that's an OVERWHELMING majority...

what's more, the majority of NYers are nonsmokers... so why should the city cater to them and give them special minority rights?

and by them
i mean me... i am a smoker... which i am mentioning again, because i know someone won't take the time to read my last post but will take the time to call me a flaming libereal

Is this really the law?
As a former restauranteur I know that the only thing the Health Dept. can do in my state if your kitchen doesn't meet standards is revoke your Food License. And all that does is prevent you from SELLING food.

What law prevents you from giving away a freshly cooked meal?

Also, based on the facts, the church kitchen doesn't qualify for a food license, so who can they serve? Isn't it just as "illegal" to cook food there and feed it to the Congregation (who indirectly pays for it by tithing)?

Soup kitchens
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

wiseone
"What law prevents you from giving away a freshly cooked meal?"

"As a former restauranteur I know that the only thing the Health Dept. can do in MY STATE if your kitchen doesn't meet standards is revoke your Food License. And all that does is prevent you from SELLING food." (emphasis added)

a) you answered your own question, good work buddy.

b) did you even read the article:

" That's not safe, said the health department. What if there's food poisoning? Hundreds of pages of regulation say that if you want to SERVE food to the public, you need a food-manager certificate, a ware-washing machine (with internal baffles), drain-boards, ventilation-hood systems, a sink with at least three compartments, as well as a hand-washing sink, can openers with removable parts, and much more, for page after page." (emphasis added)

for someone who claims to have a, what was it that you said, oh, that's right, "considerable intellect," you have the critical reading skills of a retarded dolphin with a fork stuck in its eye.

next time open your eyes before you open your mouth.


In the hierarchy of govt...
It is a lot worse for federal government to pass restrictive rgulations that a state, which in turn is worse than a community. If I like my oreos and graham crackers with their trans fats and they are outlawed in NYC, I can still buy them in my town and probably all along the NYC bordering bedroom communities. But if they are outlawed nationally (by unelected FDA bureaucrats, no less), I will have to settle for something else. If I want to go to a restaurant and enjoy a good cigar after my meal or hang with my friends in a sportsbar to watch the superbowl and my friends and/or I want to smoke, the same applies. But when a national law is passed making it illegal to smoke on airplanes, then I can't find an airline or even buy one that will allow me to smoke. Now if the market would shun smoking airlines, I might have to settle anyway. But if enough people wanted to be able to smoke during flights, some enterprising airline might actually be able to charge higher fares and be more profitable by catering to smokers. What business is it of the feds? At the community level (i.e. city) the people of NYC through their elected officials have decided they don't welcome smokers. Too bad for the folks who make money in their businesses off of smokers who will migrate to Joisy, but at least we all have some choice in the matter. Honestly, I am pretty much for local choice in these kinds of matters. It is much easier to move or commute between communities than between states or nations. One of the wisest and most abused clauses in the constitution delegates all rights privileges and authority not expressly specified to the federal government to the states and the people.

There is great irony in the fact, however, that you are a smoker fighting for banning of smoking while I am a non-smoker fighting against the banning of smoking.

i'm a grammer eejit
...good work,* buddy.

and

did you even read the article?*

haha
it is a great irony... but i think these are substantive issues:

a) the majority of people are non-smokers
b) the majority of people have spoken (at least here)
and
c) it has been shown that second hand smoke causes health problems

and i think that to have people go against that they would have to:

a) create special minority rights for smokers
b) have a judge overturn what the majority has said
c) neglect the general welfare of the public

and if you look at it as i do, i think your justification for getting rid of the ban is analogous to the liberal's justification for not having bans on homosexuality.

haha
not homosexuality... homosexual marriage.

We need health departments
and Bureaus of Weights and Measures.

We need large government departments whose sole function is to kill people. (For those in Rio Linda, that's the Armed Forces of the USA)

We can't live a life of our magnitude without some government control. Stossel's article points out that the problem is the APPLICATION of government.

The FBI keeps files on many people because the FBI conducts background checks on people in government. Yet one president decided that he could use those files for political purposes instead of for the original purpose.

The liberals decry government invasion of private lives, yet the liberals also want more government. Liberals see government as a tool to control the masses.

Conservatives see government as a necessary evil.


FEEDING THE HOMELESS OR ANY PROBLEM
MR. STOSSEL,

THIS IS PRETTY OBVIOUS, YOUR ARTICLE ON FEEDING THE HOMELESS AND THE GOVERNMENT"S WAY OF ANTAGONIZING THE GOOD SUMARITAN SYNDROME, IS ANOTHER WAY OF POINTING OUT THAT THIS ENTIRE COUNTRY IS NOW RUN BY A UNECESSARY NUMBER OF IDIOTS AND LUNATICS FROM, THE TOP TO THE BOTTOM.

Freedom and Smoking
Years ago I read a story about a Russian who was coming to the United States to give a speech. While waiting to board his plane in London, an announcement was made that the flight would be non-smoking. The Russian said everyone in the terminal started to applaud. While giving his speech, the Russian related this story to his audience and said it reminded him of Russia under Lenin and Stalin. When the first freedom was taken away the people applauded, and they continued to applaud as each freedom was removed. Eventually, there was nothing left to applaud. We need to be careful not only of what government wants to give us, but also what it wants to take away. My personal opinion is that smoking science on second hand smoke is, and always has been a bunch of crap. Someone is using statistics to arrive at a desired conclusion. People are living today, ages 60, 70, 80, and beyond who were not only raised in homes where parents smoked, but worked and lived in environments where factory smoke and other effluents permeated the air of large cities. So, applaud the no smoking zones as they become larger and larger. But don't holler when your vice is declared a nuisance or a danger to yourself or others. Incidentally, I don't smoke.

Here's an idea
Perhaps the federal government should be put in charge of a universal healthcare system.

Seriously though. Let's look at the smoking bans and trans fat ban in this light. Whoever pays the piper calls the tunes.
In this case the government would be paying for our healthcare, the fact that it is with our money is beside the point, so they will ultimately get to call the tune...er, I mean, decide what we ingest into our bodies and what we do with our bodies.

Smoking and trans fats today, liquor, red meat, and candy tomorrow. Where does it end? It doesn't.


Feeding the homeless
Rules preventing churches from feeding the homeless are examples of why we as a nation must remove the current government from power and completely start over. Our constitution has been so bastardized by the political parties the government is more of a liability than an asset to the people. The two parties want power so much they've taken the control from the people so now we must take it back by force.

On Smoking Statistics
Smoke Grabbers (a play on "gun grabbers") like to point to the CDC statistics of "400,000 smoking related deaths per year."

But critics of this study have shown that their conclusions do not match the data. There's no controls for other factors. E.g., you have a fat couch potatoe who eats greasy foods and smokes, and dies of a heart attack. Was it the obesity? The chloresterol? The inactivity? Or the cigarette? Well, the CDC would call it a "smoking related" death.

If you jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge with a pack of Marlboros in your back pocket, the CDC counts it.

This is not to say that smoking is healthy. Just that the statistics that get bandied about like they're the Word of God are in fact *hugely* exagerated.

Handy - - - -
Thanks! That makes my day! :-)

Points to ponder
UncaAbly wrote-

Many of these ridiculous rules were put in place at the behest of the existing restaraunts, which already had all of that stuff anyway. The primary purpose it prevent competition from the one-man vendor who sells food from a cart.

Actually, that's not so. My father was a cook from the 1930s until his death in 1972. He used to talk about the transformation of the restaurant industry from dirty greasy-spoons to safe working and eating establishments. The regulations came about because restaurants were dangerous and patrons were getting sick and dying from what they served. The unintended consequence was to drive the one-man vendor away, although many localities have less-restrictive regulations with respects to them. And, either way, you ought to have a reasonable expectation that the food you're paying good money for won't make you sick.

Raker wrote:

I would just make the homeless a member of the church and say they were having a private dinner party. If you wanted to eat, put your x on the line and have a plate. Once signed up, they could come back for any of the "eating meetings" as were being held. :)

It sounds like a good idea, but my church's constitution requires that someone confess Jesus Christ as their Savior and be baptized by full-emersion baptism in order to become a member. Then, you also have to take a six-week membership class and have the congregation vote on whether we want you (we have only voted against one person and he had a reputation as a church-splitter from other congregations). The constitutional safeguards are in place so to prevent a take-over of the church by those holding to another faith and forcing those of us who built the church to leave. It's happened locally to other churches without constitutions.

Thus, it would not be possible for my church to make random homeless people into church members. Technically, the health department of my city says we can't have church fellowships because our kitchen does not meet their standards. We just don't bother to invite them and so far, so good.

The point of this article was really two-fold and Stossel missed one of them. Yes, the public health department operated in lunacy. A church kitchen is a whole lot safer place to eat than a dumpster. Enough said on that subject.

Note, though, that an "advocate for the homeless" reported the code violation. What's up with that? It's another town, but I'm thinking it's the same sort of mentality as the "advocate" locally who reporetd to the Community Food Bank that our church hands out Christian literature and New Testaments with the food boxes. They failed to realize that our Community Food Bank is actually a consortium of local churches that banded together to better serve the poor and hungry and they encourage their helper churches to use the opportunity for ministry. Some "advocates" are idiots who think that the title gives them more brains than nature did.

The Smoking Ban
I have been a bartender for seven years now and have seen my state (Ohio) decide just recently to ban smoking in all bars and resturants. In the month since the ban I have had many conversations with people on both sides of the issue. A point that many of the pro-ban people bring up is that the ban is better for my health because now I don not have to inhale second hand smoke. I refute this point with two comments. First as an adult I chose to work at a bar. Second with my lost income from lost tips I cannot afford health insurance anymore so I cannot go see a doctor. Is that better for my health? I also hear people say that the bans do not hurt sales. That is a load of BS!! In the month since the ban I have made an average of $200 less per week than I did in November. Also December in the past has been one of my best months making about $200- $300 a week more than every other month. This December I made $1200 less than last December.
So to all those people that whine about smoky bars do one of three things.
1. Live with it if you choose to go to a bar.
2. Stay at home
3. Put your money where your mouth is and opn up a non-smoking bar, because if there are so many people like it will make money.

One more thing
If they keep taking my cigs. Ihope they go after everyone's coffee next!!!

mathactor -- Adult?
quoth mathactor: "... as an adult I chose to work at a bar."

This argument, while entirely valid, won't get you anywhere, because most of the people who want to ban things have already implicitly decided that, adult or not, you are not grown up enough to make your own decisions with your own life. You MUST follow their "all-knowing" advice of course, at the point of a gun if need be.

What? Adult? HAH! All that means is you're old enough to vote, and even there, you're probably fool enough to vote for the wrong guy. (Who was it who remarked about Americans being "so stupid" to vote for Bush? I fergit.)

On second thought, use the argument anyway. Sometimes people just aren't thinking, and they need to be reminded. It won't do much good for *most* of the pro-ban people, but it might change a *few* minds.

Incidentally, I'm curious -- what kind of luck did you have convincing anybody?

UncaAlby..
..you forgot "old enough to pay taxes."

Re UncaAlby
For the most part the most successfull arguement was that smoking ban is anti-capitalism. In that I mean that businesses should be able to choose if they ant to allow smoking and let the all mighty dollar decide.

P.S. sorry for any typos in the prior posts.

Its been said before!!!
'Fairness' is one of the great mantras of the left. Since everyone has his own definition of fairness, that word is a blank check for the expansion of government power. What "fairness" means in practice is that third parties -- busybodies -- can prevent mutual accommodations by others.
-Thomas Sowell

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
-Thomas Jefferson

"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."
-Thomas Paine, "Common Sense", 1776

"The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would steal them away.
-Ronald Reagan

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
-George Washington
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