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Wednesday, December 06, 2006
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Who gives to charity?
by John Stossel
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Americans are pretty generous. Three-quarters of American families give to charity -- and those who do, give an average of $1,800. Of course that means one-quarter of us don't give at all. What distinguishes those who give from those who don't? It turns out there are many myths about that.

To test them, ABC's "20/20" went to Sioux Falls, S.D., and San Francisco. We asked the Salvation Army to set up buckets at their busiest locations in both cities. Which bucket would get more money? I'll get to that in a minute.

San Francisco and Sioux Falls are different in some important ways. Sioux Falls is small and rural, and more than half the people go to church every week.

San Francisco is a much bigger and richer city, and relatively few people attend church. It is also known as a very liberal place, and since liberals are said to "care more" about the poor, you might assume people in San Francisco would give a lot.

But the idea that liberals give more is a myth. Of the top 25 states where people give an above-average percentage of their income, all but one (Maryland) were red -- conservative -- states in the last presidential election.

"When you look at the data," says Syracuse University professor Arthur Brooks, "it turns out the conservatives give about 30 percent more. And incidentally, conservative-headed families make slightly less money."

Researching his book, "Who Really Cares", Brooks found that the conservative/liberal difference goes beyond money:

"The people who give one thing tend to be the people who give everything in America. You find that people who believe it's the government's job to make incomes more equal, are far less likely to give their money away."

Conservatives are even 18 percent more likely to donate blood.

The second myth is that people with the most money are the most generous. But while the rich give more in total dollars, low-income people give almost 30 percent more as a share of their income.

Says Brooks: "The most charitable people in America today are the working poor."

We saw that in Sioux Falls, S.D. The workers at the meat packing plant make about $35,000, yet the Sioux Falls United Way says it gets more contributions of over $500 from employees there than anywhere else.

Note that Brooks said the "working" poor. The nonworking poor -- people on welfare -- are very different, even though they have the same income. The nonworking poor don't give much at all.

What about the middle class? Well, while middle-income Americans are generous compared to people in other countries, when compared to both the rich and working poor in America, Brooks says, "They give less."

When asked why, many say, "I don't have enough money to spare." But it's telling that the working poor manage to give.

And the rich? What about America's 400 billionaires? I'll report on them in next week's column.

Finally, Brooks says one thing stands out as the biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable: "their religious participation." Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money -- four times as much.

But doesn't that giving just stay within the religion?

"No," says Brooks, "Religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly nonreligious charities. Religious people give more blood; religious people give more to homeless people on the street."

And what happened in our little test? Well, even though people in Sioux Falls make, on average, half as much money as people in San Francisco, and even though the San Francisco location was much busier -- three times as many people were within reach of the bucket -- by the end of the second day, the Sioux Falls bucket held twice as much money.

Another myth bites the dust.

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John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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The Thing about Middle Class Giving
Middle class people give less because they're trying to save up for a rich lifestyle. (Notice I didn't say to "be rich").

Poor people figure they're probably never going to be rich, nor have a rich lifestyle, so if they have a dollar to spare, they might as well be generous with it.

In my humble opinion of course, backed by not a whit of data, so don't ask for references!

It's doesn't matter where it comes from.
It doesn't really matter whether or not the money comes out of their own pockets, all that really matters is that through their efforts, those on the left manage to get more money to those that need it. A conservative may give $100 to a charity out of their own pocket, but the true hero is the liberal that works to get a government program put into place that compels the conservative to dig deeper and hand the charity $200. The net result is that the efforts of the conservative only provides $100 to the charity, whereas the efforts of the liberal provides $200. All that matters is how much the charity gets. Therefore, regardless of how the conservatives spin the data, the hard fact is that liberals manage to get more funds to charities, thus making them the larger donors.

You're right!
Opinions are like...well, you know. That's why some of us actually LOOK at data. Great theory though. BTW, that dripping noise you hear is sarcasm.

Digging deeper?
Usually when I dig deeper it's to get past the pile of you-know-what that a liberal is spewing, and it turns out that's the case this time, too! In a liberal world, taxing someone is seen as compelling someone to dig deeper into their pocket and "hand" $200. And liberal wacko has apparently not seen any data confirming that charities and private organizations are more effective than government programs. I can't wait until democrats like this guy screw our country up royally over the next two years. It'll make a Republican presidency in 2008 a cakewalk.

Is Compelled Digging Really Deeper?
What the Loyal Democrat fails to account for in his calculus is the Government Middleman who manages to use, spend, and mostly waste $180 of the Conservative's $200. The effect is that only $20 ends up with the intended beneficiary.

This doesn't even scratch the surface with problems inherent in any sort of government-mandated "charity" -- this is only the practical effect, leaving out things like fostering a climate of dependency, robbing people of self-esteem, frequently doing more harm than good, etc.

Who's the "true hero" now?

More BS from the right.
According to his website, Arthur Brooks has been a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, a notorious conservative think tank, and is a frequent contributor to the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal, one of the most rabid expositors of far right dogma in America. So, should anyone be surprised that he would reach this conclusion from his “research”? I think not. Nor should we be shocked to find – as a number of commentators have noted - how shamelessly Brooks massages his data in order to elicit the conclusions that he wants.

The truth? In 2000 the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University released the Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey, by far the largest and most extensive study of civic engagement by Americans that has ever been performed. Comprising data from a total of 27,000 respondents in 41 communities throughout 29 different states, the Survey measured a wide range of social participation, including charitable giving … and the data show no significant difference between liberals and conservatives in charitable activity or donations.

But, of course, if Brooks had reported honest research, he wouldn’t be able to rake in as much money as he’ll get from promoting this kind of rubbish . Hannidy, O’Reilly, Coulter … and now Brooks: they’re all the same, making themselves rich from the intellectual and moral poverty of their readers.

Liberal Democrat
What a load of malarky! Double speak, liberal speak at its' best. Congratulations on that I must say.

After reading your post I thought blood would spurt from my eyeballs.

You gotta be kidding? Right? Don't tell me you were serious with that crapola.

UncaAlby
You know you might have something with your theory about the poor. I was on my last $4 dollars today and when I saw the Salvation guy in front of Walmart I thought, what the he11, so I threw it in the pot.
Like what difference does it make whether I have $4 until pay day or 0.

Money money money --
it's always money, isn't it. But we lefties give something much more important! Our feelings! You have no idea how much it costs me, personally, to have all the passionate opinions I have. The emotional energy I expend, well, it just drains me! All that caring about the planet and the whales and the rainforests and glaciers ... did you know they're melting?!? The glaciers, not the rainforests, which are burning! The whiteman is to blame. How I hate him. He's so selfish and bad. More money for research on AIDS! Money money money! Give us your money! You're all such hypocrites!

Aaaahheeeeiiiiyyy!!!!

J
http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/

giving
If elitist liberals give to a charity it is normally something like a donation to the opera or some other "high fallutin'" type of deal where they wish to garner praise and admiration from their peers. Naturally the taxpayer ends up subsidizing their little feifdoms. It would be interesting to see what Barbra Streisand and Al Gore give to charity and just what charities they give to. Probably the AIDS foundation.

ajhil writes:
..." The truth? In 2000 the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University released the Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey..."

Hmmm... citing a Harvard survey to counter an EEVILL conservative think tank project?

Well... that settles it. We all know how unbiased a Harvard project is!

Doesn't matter where it comes from?
Loyal Democrat --
After cutting through your B.S. I guess what you're really saying is that even though liberals are tight-fisted with their own money, they work tirelessly to pick the pockets of others for what they imperiously consider the greater good of society.

dear loyal democrat
That's the difference between you and I. I choose to willingly give out of the abundance God has blessed me with. You choose to use the "force" of government to make me give to the program "you" deem to be worthy. So by being forced to give by your will, I get a little bit of freedom to give willingly to what my free concsience deems worthy. Hey, thats the differnce between freedom and coercive socialism. That's the dems standard position, Carl Marx would be proud. I choose Jefferson and Madison!

Let me distill this
Charity = voluntary giving from your own pocket.

Taxation = involuntary confiscation from your own pocket.

Don't think so? refuse to do both and see which one gets you put in jail. Conservatives believe the money you earn is yours, libs believe all money belongs to the government.

Salvation army Kettles
I manned a kettle the other evening at the local mall here in Tennessee. I had some interesting observations about who gave. the largest single donation I had was $10, from a woman whose huge SUV and nice clothes screamed upper middle class if not rich. But the 3 or 4 $5 donations were all from overweight, poorly dressed, distinctly lower class women.
Men gave almost nothing! Men were likely to give only pocket change and a few only gave a quarter.
Also, people with children frequently gave just so that the children could put it in (A very nice lesson, in my view.)

The liberal blogging here are full of it
I am a Conservative Christian and a Nine Gallon Blood donor. I believe what the Bible says about sowing and reaping, I do not mind saying that we give very "liberally." What a use for that word! For starters, God said give one tenth of your income as seed to bless others and you will reap a harvest. That means 10% of your gross income BTW, and we do that automatically. We also give to certain United Way charities, Christian Missions, and other Christian ministries around the country. These include Christian Radio and Focus on the Family. We gave to the Hurricane Katrina and Rita victims, Tsunami victims, Hurricane Wilma victims, and more.
The Bible also says be a "Cheerful Giver."
Now, I don't know about you, but I HATE seeing my tax dollars go to support planned parenthood, NPR, the ACLU, the NEA, NAMBLA, and the homosexual agenda.
Now you idiot liberals are pointing your little self-righteous fingers saying "you are not supposed to Hate anyone, or anything." YOU ARE ALL WRONG AGAIN!!!
God Hates Sin! Abortion is Murder, Homosexuality is an Abomination,(Worst type of Sin). The National Endowment for the Arts uses my tax dollars to sponsor idiots like Maplethorpe, and a couple of "artists" with AIDS who take razor-blades and cut designs in each other's backs and then lay paper towels over the designs. Now they take the blood soaked paper towels and hang them on a wire above the audience. Is that Art? NO!!!
Why should my tax dollars pay for that GARBAGE?
I cannot be cheerful giver if the IRS puts a gun to my head and makes me give to things I despise.
And another thing... Charitable organizations, by and large monitor where the money goes far better than any government sponsored relief agency. That is a Proven FACT!!!
I will give what I want, to whom I want. The liberals, will not give, unless it is through a government hand out program. You will also note the radical liberals out there fighting to get the lion's share of this money going into radical liberal programs. That is exactly why forced giving is CRAP!!!!!

Stossel Proves Not Much at Myth Busting
Salvation Army Money Pot. Could it be that the folks in San Francisco use credit cards more than those in the plains states. Hence, the SF folks have less spare change in their pockets and cannot make a spare of the moment donation into the Salvation Army kettle. Who knows? But, this might just as easily explain the difference in donations.

United Way Contributions. I worked for a steel company in Ohio about 30 years ago. Even though the United Way Contribution was "voluntary", management demanded (yes, demanded) that everybody give the "recommended percentage" contribution. United Way and the steel company bosses said is was "voluntary" (wink, wink). But, the company wanted to have an outstanding record of charitable donations in the community, and thus used subtle and not so subtle ways to enforce the giving. It would be interesting to find out what kind of pressure the meat packing plant put on its employees to achieve the high rate of "voluntary" giving to the United Way.

Who knows? But, about the the charitable donations, Stossel may just be jumping to wrong conclusion.

Steve, Excellent Point and Libertarian
Chick, Thank you for volunteering your time to a wonderful cause! God Bless You!!! You see liberal idiot bloggers, Conservatives are also more likely to donate their time which is incredibly valuable.
BTW Libertarian Chick, I am originally from Chattanooga. I am unfortunately, stuck in Northern Ohio right now. Too Cold! But, I am one of those dads who give money to my son to put in the kettle. I am teaching my 7 year-old son to give. He tithes on his allowance, which feeds a little boy in Guatemala. Before supporting the little boy, He used to donate hundreds of Bibles to China.

Distinctions
Steve & Tom (up above) summed it very well.

The so called 'compassionate liberal' is only generous as far as his/her hand can reach into someone else's pocket via taxation.

"In general, the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." - Voltaire

Continuum, You are grasping at Straws!
Hundreds of other surveys taken around the world agree that Christian Conservatives, and middle-class Americans in general, give the most. Your defense of liberals does not hold water. Yes, I worked for a company that basically coerced the employees to give to United Way, but that was always above and beyond my tithes, offerings, and other charitable giving. Defending the Cheap Liberals just shows where your heart is.

Jumping to Conclusions
My point wasn't that lib's give more or less money than conserv's, but that Stossel may be jumping to a conclusion.

For instance, was the SD kettle full of pennies and the SF kettle 1/2 full of quarters? Were the kettles the same size? Were there several entrances to the SF store and only one to the SD store? Was it raining in one city and not in the other?

Who knows???

But, to be a sheeple, and blindly accept Stossel's conclusion from the hypno-TV tube is just plain sad.

For heaven's sake use your brain.

wrong conclusion?
i think that the people in each city are not all red nor blue. all people in san fransisco, nor in sioux falls, are not one thing [liberal or conservative]. i'm more inclined to believe libertarian chick's personal observations. i'm also more interested in how much time people volunteer. that is the true charity in my mind, giving of one's time and energy. i don't see how this article is useful and ultimately it is devisive. how does it help? people from both sides gave to charity; they have that in common. must 'we' be divided on everything in this country? i read this site to get a conservative view of things. aren't yall ever happy or nice in your comments or views of the world?

Sioux Falls is the CC Capital of the US
continuum, I think your credit card hypothesis doesn't quite work. Sioux Falls, SD is the home to every major credit card issuer in the US. Just look at the return address for the pre-approved offers you get in the mail. Thanks to a favorable regulatory environment all US credit card companies are organized in either South Dakota or Delaware....the majority being in SD. I'm sure the Sioux Falls folks are well versed in using credit cards.

Trust, Yet Verify
"Hundreds of other surveys taken around the world agree that Christian Conservatives"

As you can tell, I don't blindly accept other people's statements, so if you could just give me a link to one or maybe even two of these surveys, I'd like to read them.


"beyond my tithes, offerings"

To my way of thinking, a tithe is not a charitable contribution. It is not voluntary, but it is your obligation to your faith and to your God. Remember that the highest mitzvah is the one where you give anonymously to benefit someone you do not know.

Sioux Falls, CC Card Capital Redux
Rahim53, my point wasn't that credit cards necessarily explain the difference between the pot being half full or half empty.

My point was that one shouldn't jump to conclusions without knowing the facts.

(BTW -- As a CPA, I used to handle checks and wire transfers of un-Godly amounts. But, that doesn't mean that I have millions of my own money.)


Steel Mills and Giving
Sorry but I don't believe your comment about being forced to give by the Steel Mill so the evil company would look good. If you worked in a Mill 30 years ago, you were protected by the USWA and there is NO WAY the union agreed to let the company force you to give. You made up that story. I was a United Steelworker twice, United Mine Worker once, and a Teamster and never was I forced to contribute to anyone other than the Union. Liberals have to lie and make up stories to get their points across. Sad. That company probably went out of business due to you sitting on your butt for 8 hours waiting on the Union Electrician to come change a light bulb. Been there, done that.

Sioux Falls, CC Card Capital Part 3
Rahim53, this may sound like I'm picking on you, but this thought just occurred to me.

Whenever I call Citibank or Chase, instead of Sioux Falls I either get someone in India or the Phillipines. How many of those folks do you reckon have credit cards? And, what do you think they get paid an hour?

Just because someone works for a millionaire donesn't mean that they are rollin' in the dough.

Anyways, just a thought.

Is it ever enough giving?
I saw the show, and I couldn't finish it, because John Stossel badgered his rich intervees about "not giving enough" without really defining what he thought was "enough." Each person has a different idea on what is "enough" to give, especially when it's someone else's money! The rich often countered that they had trouble finding charities that were "making a difference" or that didn't squander their donated money. In the end Stossel's show seemed to support the concept of government taxation to support "good causes" as it's mandatory, because as "everyone knows" the rich are selfish and won't "give" (read "unless taxed heavily") because they are selfish.

John Stossel also didn't address the idea that just being rich and investing in corporations and companies the rich are doing "good", by providing jobs to the population, even though the rich often appear to us to be selfish, the power of economics can compel them to actually act altruistically in their own self-interest. By creating jobs, people gain much more than any charity can give them. They earn a sense of self-reliance and self-respect, and also begin to understand that their position in society requires a degree of civic honor. Many charities only seem to do is to foster a sense of dependency, which is why liberals like to compare government programs with charity programs. I’m not saying that all charities (or even government programs) are bad, but that the power of economics can lead people to do greater good by creating jobs than any charity might.

Anonymous Giving
Loyal Democrat: not only do your guys "give" other people's money, they loudly demand personal recognition for their generosity. It's all about them. They care. Nauseating.

Steel Mill and Unions
Hey VNam69, now you're getting personal.

But, I didn't work in the mill. I worked in the GO as a CPA. We, in the office, weren't unionized. The town was Middletown, Ohio. We were exempt employees.

The steel company was ARMCO steel (which no longer exists, bought by the Japanese about 15 years ago).

BTW -- even the mills were non-union and NOT members of the United Steel Workers. Believe it or not, it was a "company union" in a "company town". Whenever, the USW union negotiated a pay raise, the company responded in kind.

You just need to check your facts before blindly making a statement.

Definition of a Liberal
One definition of a liberal is:

A person who when he sees, or believes he sees, a problem and doesn't rest until the government uses other peoples money to fix the problem and then walks away feeling morally superior.


The Truth, You Can't Handle the Truth
BTW -- VNam69.

You're doing exactly the right thing.

You're not just blindly accepting someone else's statements.

You're weighing those statements against what you know to be true, and questioning whether the statements make sense.

That is the point I was trying to make.

Point Made and Accepted
Yep, jumped to a conclusion and I do apologize. I assumed and we all know what that means. Thanks for clearing that up.

Why I believe what Stossel says is the same experience that the Gunny has. Also saw how much money a middle-class beach community would raise for the Fire Department's childrens Christmas toys fund raiser and how the "rich" beach community right up the road raised. The Carolina Beach people would keep the jars filled when the Wrightsville Beach people wouldn't be able to fill one. I could give many more examples, but my main reason for answering is apologize to Continuum.

Stossel's reporting never disappointing.
Stossel,... probably the best reporter ever, never ceases to amaze me.

It would not surprise me of this study's findings.
God said, it will be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than to enter heaven.

I think the working poor can relate to people in dire need.
I wouldn't doubt at somepoint the working poor were in dire need themselves at one point.

Thanks for the myth busting John.
Keep up the great work you always do.

"Socially tolerant, because I'm fiscally conservative first."
- Davy C. Rockett -

Loyal Democrat...
What you said is absolutely honest...The democratic people in this country want to redistibute the wealth at the expense of others...call it a program, whatever you want. With that mentality, everyone still won't be equal.

Giving to charity
Conclusions about charitable giving based on who throws money into the Salvation Army pots? Absurd deduction. More myth-making.

Christmas Protection Racket
I am sick to death of Christmas on December 1st because that is when I begin to be hammered by professional charities demanding (yes DEMANDING) that I fork over new, expensive, fashionable attire and electronics to TheMostVulnerableAmongUs (the new name for poor kids) so they won't (1) steal my stuff and (2) kill me. When I was growing up, we gave gently used things we had or had outgrown so that poor kids could have a Christmas, because it was the right thing to do. Now we are commanded to do it or die.

I'll take my chances, thanks. And if TheMostVulnerableAmongUs tries to take my stuff and kill me, I'll shoot back. So there's your warning, brats.

As for charity, I have been taught that this is something you do in secret, because if you blow a trumpet before you hand it over, that's all the reward you'll get. (See Matthew Chapter 6). So when you are vilifying someone for not being charitable enough, it may be that he or she is doing way more than you are and keeping his or her mouth shut about it. Remember the retired single lady in Florida who won the lottery and after her death hundreds of people came to testify that she had helped them and commanded them never to tell where they got that money.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

And a Merry Christmas to everybody, even you brats with the guns.

You know
Didn’t we just have this discussion? Maybe the contributors aren’t aware of the other articles. But seeing that the thread has about the same comments as before, I’ll pose this thought: what does it matter? Sure giving is good and maybe it can go too far in some respects, but what does it matter unless it’s the food out of your mouth or a piece of your life?

Who gives the most
It is most blessed to give than to receive. We who are the unpaid volunteer work force in America can tell you that generally, we would be against receiving pay for the generous contributions we make. Paid staffs are required to work at tasks we generally would object to do. We also can set our own work schedule within reason. So if we find we need an extended vacation we don't generally have to plea for timeoff. We also can choose the charities we wish to contribute to and by our dollars determine the value a charity is to the community at large. Many liberals give generously to causes with suspicious administrative control. Conservatives also can make mistakes in contribution but long ago learned that the Salvation Army provides all kinds of services under its many branches. No local government could ever raise taxes sufficiently high enough to pay for the time and money donated by unpaid volunteers to the community causes of the Salvation Army.

ajhil and continuum
Ajhil, these are some excerpts from your own site, clearly stating that Religious communities give more time and money to charity and that Religious communities are more conservative than liberal.

"Religious communities embody one of the most important sources of social capital and concern for community in America. Religious people are great at "doing for."

Moreover, religious involvement is positively associated with most other forms of civic involvement. Even holding other factors constant (comparing people of comparable educational levels, comparable income, and so on), religiously engaged people are more likely than religiously disengaged people to be involved in civic groups of all sorts, to vote more, to be more active in community affairs, to give blood, to trust other people (from shopkeepers to neighbors), to know the names of public officials, to socialize with friends and neighbors, and even simply to have a wider circle of friends. Interestingly as well, Americans are more likely to fully trust people at their place of worship (71%) than they are to trust people they work with (52%), people in their neighborhood (47%) or people of their own race (31%).

"our survey suggests that religiously observant Americans today tend to be more conservative politically than their secular neighbors. "


Some once said...
...years ago that a liberal is someone who loves humanity but hates people.

Self-sacrifice and stable self-government independent of outside human dictate is a frightening prospect for a liberal. For so many reasons, the leftist has a need to be parented and thus they worship at the altar of government.
Their clergy is their chosen congressfolk and among their beatitudes is; "blessed are those who disregard what I do, but do what I say".

Robin
"aren't yall ever happy or nice in your comments or views of the world?"

Your comment illustrates exactly why this article is so important. Many if not most liberals assume that conservatives, because they favor limited government and thus fewer social programs, are angry, selfish people with little compassion for others. This article explains that that is not the case. Conservatives give more of their time and money in a way that is more effective and efficient than any well-meaning Liberal government program ever could.

Brilliant Democrat here
If we want to credit Government spending to Democrats, then an even better concept (since the ends justify the means) is to commmit bank robbery on a large scale to fund charities. Perhaps holding people up at gunpoint would be a good plan (except it might require the use of guns).

If the ends justify the means then forcibly taking money from others to give to charity is just short cutting the Government prospects.

What a wonderful world you envision, where the best and most generous people are also violent criminals stealing money to fund charities. Why criminal activity must be the best concept of all, fofcing redistribution of assets. I wonder why we put these people in jail when obviously they're just doing their part to forcibly redistribute wealth.

So "Loyal Democrat" how many people have you personally robbed today to help charities? If it doesn't matter where the moeny comes from I can only assume you're perfectly willing to commit crimes for these purposes.

Not My Money
I have a liberal friend who has just returned from a two week vacation in Europe. While showing us pictures of the vacation in his $20,000 home studio while drinking wine and munching on imported cheese, a guest asked if those of us present would want to help with a successful after school tutoring program she was involved with in an inner city school.

My liberal European traveler friend opined that it was not good karma for him to spend his time doing such manual labor, and that if it wasn't for Bush budget cuts, the government would have the funds to do it!

I think that covers the mindset of so many enlightened people of the left.

AudiR10
My sentiments exactly.

At one time, people had too much pride to accept charity, and if reality obligated them too, they accepted charity quietly and didn't panhandle. Maybe that is what is wrong today, society has no pride. Obviously.

Campassionate democrats
Kraut writes: One definition of a liberal is:
A person who when he sees, or believes he sees, a problem and doesn't rest until the government uses other peoples money to fix the problem and then walks away feeling morally superior.

-----------------------------------------------




Today, wanting someone else's money is called 'need,' wanting to keep your own money is called 'greed,' and 'compassion' is when politicians arrange the transfer.



The above belongs to somebody (Reagan?), but I can't remember who.

Salvation Army kettles
Another reason people in SD might have been more charitable is because SD has no personal income tax. Therefor they more than likely have less of their own money being appropriated by those generous liberals. Such as Loyal Dummycrat and the ones running CA and San Fran.

One more thing
Wonder what the differences are between libs and cons when it comes to campaign donations. And do libs think of campaign donations as 'charity'?

Loyal Demoncrat
"A conservative may give $100 to a charity out of their own pocket, but the true hero is the liberal that works to get a government program put into place that compels the conservative to dig deeper and hand the charity $200. The net result is that the efforts of the conservative only provides $100 to the charity, whereas the efforts of the liberal provides $200. All that matters is how much the charity gets."


Why can't the liberal just give the other $100 himself??

Loyal Democrat
"A conservative may give $100 to a charity out of their own pocket, but the true hero is the liberal that works to get a government program put into place that compels the conservative to dig deeper and hand the charity $200. The net result is that the efforts of the conservative only provides $100 to the charity, whereas the efforts of the liberal provides $200. All that matters is how much the charity gets."

Boy are you naive! Just where do you think the money comes from to pay the government "true hero"? The United Way requires its charities to provide estimates as to the percentage of their receipts reach the intended recipients (needy). A good charity is one whose percentage is at least 85%. Guess what the government's percentage is: 19% !! No wonder they fight tooth-and-nail to protect their rice bowls. Them bureaucrats don't come free. So in your example, only $38 would reach the needy, not $200.

Pure Selfishness
John Stossel is an opiner. He gets paid to opine. He is not presenting the results of a scientific study on charitable giving, he is presenting food for thought. That’s what he does. It makes no difference if SFran has more CC than SFalls or if it rained in one place and not in the other. Anyone who bases there opinion solely on Stossel’s opinions is silly and dangerous. His efforts as a reporter are intended to make you think and learn for yourself, not to barf back his thoughts. The most dangerous problem for our nation in these times is IGNORANCE and APATHY.

However when all that is accounted for, liberals are selfish. It is my belief that all liberal principles can be traced back to a deep-seated selfishness. For example, you show me two couples, one with 4 kids and a stay at home mom and the other with no kids and two working professionals, and I’ll show you six conservatives and 2 liberals. The two prof’s are so focused on self that children are out of the question. Granted, selfishness is a universal weakness, but the difference between the liberal philosophy and the conservative philosophy is that the former embraces it and the later battle it. Almost every liberal watch-cry is based on it, whether or not they admit to it makes no difference. It is empirically evident in everything they do. Liberalism is the ‘cigarette’ of our society, it will slowly but surely kill.

I still believe that liberalism is a mental illness.

Democrats and Charity vs Reps & charity
Look at the tax returns for Clinton, Kerry, Gore and Bush.

Clinton itemized used underwear. Gore gave $300. Kerry not much more.

Bush gives $100,000 or more.

is that loud enough for you to here? Democrats are charitable only when its OTHER PEOPLES MONEY.

mr boss
"My liberal European traveler friend opined that it was not good karma for him to spend his time doing such manual labor, and that if it wasn't for Bush budget cuts, the government would have the funds to do it!"

And you are still friends??

Loyal Democrat
Loyal Democrat wrote:

"A conservative may give $100 to a charity out of their own pocket, but the true hero is the liberal that works to get a government program put into place that compels the conservative to dig deeper and hand the charity $200. The net result is that the efforts of the conservative only provides $100 to the charity, whereas the efforts of the liberal provides $200. All that matters is how much the charity gets. Therefore, regardless of how the conservatives spin the data, the hard fact is that liberals manage to get more funds to charities, thus making THEM THE LARGER DONORS."

------------------------------------------------

The most despicable part of Loyal Democrat's post is also the most telling. Not only is he going to take credit for getting the government to take $100 from the conservative - he is going to take credit for the other $100 the conservative gave voluntarily. And, in the process, he considers himself the donor!

My definition of a liberal -- Someone who does something nice for you one time but reminds you about it every time they talk to you.

Rolls eyes at Liberal Dummycrat
Honestly, I was not going to comment until I read Liberals comments and thought how in the world can someone so dense own a computer.
Charity is charity because it is given from the heart. It is not given because some liberal set up yet another department of our already over inflated government to rape and pillage from the working masses. Those departments get their "charitable contributions" from the taxes withdrawn from the workers paychecks every week of their life. In essence you are already subsidizing your wealth redistribution dreams by taking someone's money in the form of taxes and paying for someone else's living expenses.
Don't feel bad. We really do not expect much from your ilk. But you bring it on yourself when you post comments that are basically socialist propoganda promoting thievery.

Charity is more than money
Alaska is a conservative state, but a largely unchurched state.

Our church runs a food distribution location for the local Community Food Bank. So do a number of other churches in the area. Not a single non-church non-profit runs such a location, but many of them use ours. On major holidays, the Food Bank asks for volunteers to supplement their loyal volunteer staff. I like to talk to my neighbor while I work, so I have a pretty good sense of who is packing and stacking boxes with me. Construction workers, daycare providers, waitresses -- mostly all conservatives, about 50 percent churchgoers (in a town where less than 10 percent of residents claim going to church on a monthly basis).

I have a friend who lives in Los Angeles who is involved in a similar ministry and he says the same thing -- mostly conservatives, mostly churchgoers (he says more like 75 percent).

Taxes take my dollars to fund charities that some liberal thinks are needed, but then pays a staff mega-bucks to administer the charity, so there is less money actually going to those who need the charity. Churches ask for voluntary contributions so that they can administer charity to those in need and the money goes to supplies and materials because the volunteer staff do not get paid.

That's why non-governmental charity is better. In actuality, more money gets where it should go in the first place. Governmental charity is mainly a job program for those who make too much money to qualify for charity.

Ajhil, check the web site
Actually Brooks original work on the religious and charities, http://www.policyreview.org/oct03/brooks.html
was based on the Kennedy School study you referenced and is one of the "list of papers" cited on their web site
http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/saguaro/communitysurvey/docs/SCCBSpapers206.pdf

conservative plant
LoyalDemocrat is undoubtedly a conservative plant with a strange sense of humor. I refuse to believe anyone could be that stupid.
Here we have an individual who is advocating government-sanctioned theft (perhaps I should say an increase in government-sanctioned theft, as we already have plenty of it going on) in the name of charity.
Let me offer you a explanation of how things work on this planet, LD. If I have $5.00 in my pocket, there are two legitimate ways another individual, or group of individuals, can obtain that money. One, I agree, voluntarily and in the complete absence of coercion, to give the money away. Second, I can enter into an agreement with that individual or group to exchange the money for services rendered. The word used to describe any other method of obtaining the money is "theft". And that is precisely what you are advocating.
I realize this is a concept that will never make across your intellectual divide, but all taxation that is not voluntary is theft. As a citizen, I agree to pay a percentage of my earnings to my local and state governments in exchange for the services they provide, such as roads, police, mosquito control, etc. I may grumble and fume all I want about the rate I pay, but as long as I choose to live there, I am acceding to the terms. I can always move to a cheaper place. However, when the government, or some other fool like you, tells me that I have no choice but to "give" money in exchange for nothing, I am being plundered.
By the way, it was not by way of accident that I failed to mention the federal government when I mentioned who I agree to pay taxes to on my earnings. Taxes to the federal government are based on income, not earnings, but to explain that to you whould be like trying to put 10 gallons of potatos in a .5 ounce bucket.
Welcome to Planet Earth, LD.

"Let's go to the man on the street"
First of all, I think y'all are missing the tongue-in-cheek humor of "Loyal Democrat"'s post.

Now, on to the issue at hand. I am usually suspicious of surveys such as the one Stossel references, merely because they never seem to result in findings that don't match the political leanings of the researcher, whether that be the American Enterprise Institute (which, by the way, I typically agree with myself) or Harvard University.

As for the "kettle test", I'm also typically suspicious of the anecdotal test. Mainstream news media are famous for the "man on the street" test: ask passersby their opinion of a particular issue. It is a tactic easily manipulated to provide various results, or at least to increase the odds of providing a desired result.

For the kettle test, I'm guessing that in most large cities, you're going to find less giving in a change kettle when compared to smaller towns, same as you see fewer people stopping to talk to you when you ask for directions in New York City than you do in Knoxville Tennessee. I personally give a fairly good amount to charity, but I never put change in the kettles; I typically don't carry much cash to begin with, and I'd prefer to spend my charitable donations in larger chunks at a time, or give of my time.

I have no idea what political persuasion Bill Gates is, but I believe he's probably given more to charity than a cumulative 99% of the rest of the United States. Ted Turner's as liberal as they come, and I believe he gave away 1/3 of his total fortune (although he idiotically gave it to the UN), and I remember Warren Buffett, himself a liberal, giving something like billions of dollars to charity himself.

I'd certainly be inclined to believe that religious people tend to give more than nonreligious, just because basically all major religions have that as part of their culture.

Ultimately, I think that assistance to the poor is best done by private charities, and by charities that emphasize some sort of action by the recipient (such as, for example, Habitat for Humanity). The problem with government "charity" is that typically it is just a hand out that develops a dependence on the government (not to mention the fact that it is requisitioned from someone else whether they wish to contribute or not).

Loyal Democrat writes: Wednesday, Decemb

"It's doesn't matter where it comes from.
It doesn't really matter whether or not the money comes out of their own pockets, all that really matters is that through their efforts, those on the left manage to get more money to those that need it. A conservative may give $100 to a charity out of their own pocket, but the true hero is the liberal that works to get a government program put into place that compels the conservative to dig deeper and hand the charity $200. The net result is that the efforts of the conservative only provides $100 to the charity, whereas the efforts of the liberal provides $200. All that matters is how much the charity gets. Therefore, regardless of how the conservatives spin the data, the hard fact is that liberals manage to get more funds to charities, thus making them the larger donors."

You "people" really do believe that don't you?

During nearly all of my 64 years I've maintained the contention that the most dangerous word in the English language is also a word not used too often. It's "rationalize" - a word where it's definition is displayed on a daily basis by liberals.

Robin Hood would have been a liberal I'm sure. Coercion and legal theft are now equivalent to doing something from the goodness of one's heart and concern. I gotta go and repeat my Psychology 101 and Sociology courses. Talk about an illogical rationalization! I think Savage was right when he stated that liberalism is a mental disorder.

Let's see. Women's vaginas were created for the insertion of a male appendage as well as to urinate, so rape is OK because it merely utilizes the use of a secular creation, and to satiate the "natural" need of a male. She really wanted it anyway.

It really doesn't matter where the money came from - by robbing a bank. All that matters is that I was able to contribute $5,000 to our local cancer organization. Yea. That's it. That's the ticket!

It's the "end" - not the "means" - that matters.

D'ya suppose Loyal Dem is a strawman?
Loyal plays to our conservative biases just a little too well. I wonder if one of us conservative types didn't fabricate him/her/it. Sure fits the stereotype of a liberal as someone who would have been a common thief but that they lack the strength of character to stick a snubnose into the ribs of some teenage convenience store clerk.

re: Sonny Lykos
quote: "Robin Hood would have been a liberal I'm sure. Coercion and legal theft are now equivalent to doing something from the goodness of one's heart and concern."

Actually, if you read the original stories, Robin Hood wasn't really "robbing from the rich to give to the poor". The sheriffs back in those days were stealing from the people without regard for the rule of law; Robin Hood's mission was to "steal from the thieves" (I'm quoting U2 there, not Hood himself) and return the stolen property to its rightful owners. In that regard, he was more Ragnar Danneskjold than Ted Kennedy.

ajhil
ajhil writes:
"More BS from the right. According to his website, Arthur Brooks has been a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, a notorious conservative think tank, and is a frequent contributor to the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal, one of the most rabid expositors of far right dogma in America. So, should anyone be surprised that he would reach this conclusion from his “research”? I think not. Nor should we be shocked to find – as a number of commentators have noted - how shamelessly Brooks massages his data in order to elicit the conclusions that he wants."

Brooks is hardly a right-winger.

"Syracuse University professor Arthur C. Brooks is about to become the darling of the religious right in America -- and it's making him nervous.

The child of academics, raised in a liberal household and educated in the liberal arts, Brooks has written a book that concludes religious conservatives donate far more money than secular liberals to all sorts of charitable activities, irrespective of income...For the record, Brooks, 42, has been registered in the past as a Democrat, then a Republican, but now lists himself as independent, explaining, 'I have no comfortable political home'...'These are not the sort of conclusions I ever thought I would reach when I started looking at charitable giving in graduate school, 10 years ago,' he writes in the introduction. 'I have to admit I probably would have hated what I have to say in this book.'

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/204/story_20419_1.html

That he has done work for conservative journals and institutions makes him no less credible than that he teaches at a liberal university. You want to talk about B.S., what about guilt by association? I would bet money you haven't personally checked his data. The fact that he has a few conservative connections is enough for you to write him off. Sadly, that's what often passes for intellectual rigor on the left.

Exactly, Ajhil:
I get your point. Anyone that has participated in an entity which is skewed either to the right or left has zero credibility. Therefore:

Michael Moore: Full of it.
Al-Franken: Full of it.
Arianna Huffington: REALLY full of it.
Alan Colmes: Full of it.
George CLooney: Full of it.
Michael J. Fox: Full of it.
Randy Rhodes: Full of it.
Jimmy Carter: Full of it.
Ajhil: Full of it.

Hey slabo:
What does your post have to do with the topic, which is charitable giving?

Even if the topic was about military service, you'd have to include ALL current and ex-military in order to justify your conclusion that Democrats "ARE the troops". A hand-picked list of a 50 or so persons does not a myth bust!

In fact the CURRENT military, at least, has a conservative majority. Contrary to your brash claim that Democrats "ARE the military," American armed forces are actually even more conservative than the general population:

"According to 2004 exit polls, 34 percent of the voters in the presidential election were conservative, 45 percent moderate, and 21 percent liberal. But an Annenberg School study in the same year found that, in the military, 40 percent of the officers say they are conservative, 40 percent moderate, and just 7 percent liberal. Only 15 percent of the officers were Democrats, while 47 percent were Republicans and 31 percent independents."

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=127&subsecID=170&contentID=253725

"While recent polls show that roughly one-third of the public considers itself Republican, 57 percent of the active-duty military identified themselves with that party – with two-thirds of officers, compared to 49 percent of enlisted personnel, checking the Republican box.

Compared to 32 percent of the civilian public who described themselves as Democrats, only nine percent of military officers and 16 percent of enlisted personnel did so. Twenty-nine percent of the military respondents either said they were independent or declined to answer the question.

As for attitudes toward Bush, two-thirds of military respondents said they approved of his overall performance as president, compared to only 13 percent who disapproved of it.

By contrast, 55 percent of civilians indicated approval and 43 percent indicated disapproval, according to an August poll by Gallup. In this case, too, a higher percentage of officers approved of Bush (73 percent), than enlisted personnel (64 percent)."

http://www.lewrockwell.com/ips/lobe43.html

"Half of the Military Times readers identify as conservative or very conservative (50%), but just as many identify as moderate (33%), liberal (7%) or refuse to say (10%). Only 8% describe themselves as "very conservative." Surveys of all U.S. adults typically put the conservative percentage somewhere between 30% and 40%.
They are more Republican than other Americans, but not exclusively so: 56% of the Military Times readers considered themselves Republicans, 13% Democrats, 15% independent and 16% either identify with another party or refuse to say. The Republican percentage among all adults typically falls in the high 20s to low 30s."

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2006/06/no_social_conse.html

Also see:

http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=16


What I find so sad is that so many liberals have such a malignant, nasty personality that they actually get their jollies by joining an avowedly conservative website so they can pick fights. I wouldn't mind so much if they added something of substance to the discussion, but too often they bring, as did slabo, a big bag of nothing.

To Slabo
In the last presidential election, the Democrats (read, liberals) openly and actively tried to prevent military personnel stationed overseas from voting. The veterans in the Democratic party when right along with the game plan.

Being in the military doesn't provide one with a halo for life. And yes, I am an honorably discharged veteran.

Loyal Democrat doesn't get it
Like many other progressives with whom I have spoken, Loyal Democrat fails to recognize any special advantage or benefit to the nation which might come from a charitable populace.
Progressives frequently fail to understand that private virtue is extremely important and desirable in all aspects of human interaction and endeavor. Having a federal government which coldly and impersonally provides for the needs of people will NEVER be a substitute for compassionate, giving people. You simply can never substitute government intervention for private compassion. However, the single most common comment I hear from progressives is "I shouldn't HAVE to give to charity; the government should do that". What a joyless approach to life!
Many people simply cannot comprehend the disirability of virtue. Loyal Democrat appears to be one such.

slabo
Okay, the topic was about charitable giving...since you obviously couldn't dispute the facts of the study Stossel based the column on, you then tried to change the topic and turn it into military service debate. You stated that Democrats "ARE the military" and implied that more Democrats have served, a lie I soundly refuted by proving that the American military is majority conservative (with full documentation). Since you couldn't argue that point, you state that 58 Democrats versus 1 Republican who ran for Congress in 2006 served in the military. What the point of that is, I don't know. Unfortunately, it isn't true.

The lengthy lists you provided actually listed only NINETEEN Democrats who both served in the military and ran for Congess in 2006: Gephart, Dashle, Inonye, Kerry, Rangel, Cleland, Kennedy, Harkin, Reed, Hollings, Boswell, Peterson, Thompson, McBride, Davis and Stark (who you inexplicably duplicate in the two Democrat lists), Clark, Robb, and Heflin.

You also include 5 prominent Democrats who did not run for Congress: Gore, McGovern, Carter, Mondale, Glenn.

For a grand total of 24 Democrats.

Then you provide two lists of prominent Republicans who served in the military, which includes EIGHT who both ran for Congress in 2006 and served in the military: McCain, Sessions, Gilcrest, Graham, Issa, Johnson, Stevens, and Warner.

Your lists included 12 prominent Republicans who served but did not run for Congress in 2006: Rumsfeld, Bush, Reagan, Dole, Hagel, Cunningham, Powell, Quayle, GHW Bush, Ridge, Ford, and Thurmond.

For a grand total of 20 Republicans.

So where do you get this 58 to 1 nonsense? The proof you yourself provided yields a total of 19 to 8. You've refuted yourself. Nice job!!!

Yup, another MYTH bites the dust !!




NEXT.............


Please, I hate to see you embarrass yourself like this. Go back to Moveon.org where facts and logic don't matter.

Slabo
Regarding the 58 Iraq vets who are running as Democrats, they'll soon have a reality check, unless of course, they're for sale. Then again, they might provide the ethical "new blood" the Democrats so desparately need.

Now back to the article about charitable giving....

With Democrats and "compassion", it's rhetoric over reality. As a general rule and as this article suggests, it's just too personal for a liberal to give money to someone straight from their pocket. The government taxation monolith provides the depersonalization they obviously need -- and prefer.

I can spend (and donate) the money I earn much better than any politician can. And I prefer it that way.

Slabo
You seem a little hysterical, not funny hysterical, but maybe you need a straight jacket hysterical.

Is the exclamation point the only functioning punctuation mark on your keyboard?

Always remember...
...when talking with a liberal and stating facts:

1. They will redirect the discussion to another topic.

2. They won't respond to an original statement, i.e., "The Democrats, in the last presidential election, actively and openly tried to prevent overseas military personnel from voting."

3. They will misuse analogy.

4. They will demonize the messenger.

Remember folks, the truth will set you free and liberals prefer bondage.

slabo
I wonder if YOU can comprehend what you read...if you read my post at all. You CLAIM that 58 Iraq veterans ran Democrat and 1 ran Republican. Then you give a bunch of lists, which any reader would assume was added to prove your point. YOUR LISTS DO NOT ADD UP TO YOUR OWN FREAKIN' CLAIM...CAN YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD??? YOU'RE the one who included older veterans in your list on BOTH sides. MY dorky math is simply a break-down of the dorky lists YOU GAVE US!!! AND IT DOESN'T ADD UP!!!!

And you give NO reponse to my post that proves that THE MILITARY OVERALL IS MAJORITY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS. Who gives a crap if more Democratic Congressional candidates were vets? THAT'S FIFTY-EIGHT PEOPLE!! The claim that "DEMOCRATS ARE THE TROOPS" is a BIG FAT FREAKIN' LIE, as I proved. I don't care how often you REPEAT the lie, the polling data for the U.S. military is that there are more Conservative Republicans now serving than Liberal Democrats. What part of "57 percent of the active-duty military identified themselves with [the Republican] party" do you not understand!?

You wanna talk about a moron, here you are on a CONSERVATIVE WEBSITE telling the columnists to go "peddle their myths" somewhere else. IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU READ, YOU GO BACK TO YOUR LIBERAL HOLE, IDIOT!!

And you never even refuted Stossel's "myth", MORON, which is that Conservatives give more to charity than liberals. Even if your B.S. posts were factually correct, they don't ever address the topic!! He's talking money given to charity and about Blood Center donations, if you can't comprehend at this reading level! And if you want to add "military blood" to the equation, which Stossel does not, THEN YOU HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR ALL THOSE SERVING, YOU DUMB A**!!! How does YOUR dorky arithmetic of 58 counter 57% of millions of soldiers identifying themselves as Republicans? UNBELIEVABLE!!!! Slink back to MoveOn.org before you embarass yourself further, loser.

Wow How distasteful
Yes another round of conservatism v. liberals, generality, stereotypes and self righteous name calling & stone throwing. Sad.

If you judged "conservatism" just by the GOP majority ran government from 2000-2006, you'd think they’re for corruption, laziness, inefficient big gov, big spending and immorality, with a fondness for gay sex and wars. Really not funny.

The WE (conservatives) are morally better than the THEM (liberals) is horrible and why conservatives have the reputation for being less than charitable, it's hateful garbage. YES there are gay, abortion having republicans who get divorced and DUI's.

Charity is from the heart, done anonymously with out motives of self reward. The "BUCKET" test is stupid. Clearly an attack on San Fran. By the way I'm all for taking military money out of San Fran, if they are going to be rude and hateful. It goes both ways.


What to do about the GOP's image of being Scrooge ??????????

Well of course you must attack "them". "Them" being Americans who happen to NOT block vote GOP. That is how you fix your image of being uncharitable, by being uncharitable.

Charity is the manifestation of faith, an offering of thanks for the undeserved forgiveness God gives us. It's very personal. By making the claim the conservative are more generous, John Stossel is saying GOP = GOD, in code. PLEASE. I find that offensive on too many levels.

I do want politicians with spirituality, religious background, but the GOP is selling republicans as the truly faithful. Sadly this is just to get votes. Our nation is divided. I blame both sides but mostly the GOP. That's why I'm independent. I'd be too embarassed to call my self a Dem or Repub with all this horse hockey. The Dem's may be inept, but they are no more sinful than republicans or evangelical leaders.

Political attacks based on religious issues or lies about who gives more to charity may win elections, but IT'S AT GREAT COST TO THE SOUL OF OUR NATION. I DON'T WANT MY GOVERMENT BASED ON SPECIAL INTERST OF ANY KIND. For the people by the people. If you want to spread religion and saves souls, do it with your church not the government.

Our nation is founded and based on biblical morality and law but NOT theology.

The word liberal is so distorted, now a pejorative. Once liberal was a good word. Liberalism meant generous, open minded, not bigoted, care of the poor, private enterprise, life, liberty, individual property rights, limitations on power (especially of government and religion), the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas. Of course the liberal of the 60's would be conservatives today.

Conservatism or Neo-Cons of today opened a good Ole Can of whoopass on the GOP's reputation. The memories your dad had of Reagan are just quaint now. I really hate the way the GOP party has gone. They all but tried to re-write or ignore the constitution and force policy down the people’s throats based on religius theology.

This is not how Jesus wants his people to follow him. He wanted us to follow freely, to give freely.

THE PLAN, SELL THE MYTH: Dems are against GOD so vote GOP? This is sinful nature.

HOW AWFUL AND DISTASTFUL THIS WHOLE ARTICLE IS. Shame. That is what the radical Muslims do, use religion to divide and incite. Dangerous stuff.

THIS IS WHY THE FOUNDING FATHERS CRAFTED THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

When you THINK you are better than another Americans based on your race, political party or religion you should look in a mirror, you'll see a hypocrite..

S.F.Not Gonna' Give To Homophobic S.Army
WHY would you go to of all places San Francisco to "research" if its' residents would give to the Salvation Army, who along with the Boy Scouts* are one of the most homophobic groups around. It is SO OBVIOUS and is such a KNOWN FACT about the Salvation Army's policies I don't know how ANY RESPONSIBLE journalist would even think this project could in any way serve to look at this issue. Come on John!!
* Of which I have put in over twenty-five years and am an Eagle Scout. By the way I am also gay. Imagine that??

S.F.Not Gonna' Give To Homophobic S.Army
WHY would you go to of all places San Francisco to "research" if their residents would give to the Salvation Army, who along with the Boy Scouts* are one of the most homophobic groups around. It is SO OBVIOUS and is such a KNOWN FACT about the Salvation Army's policies I don't know how ANY RESPONSIBLE journalist would even think this project could in any way serve to look at this issue. Come on John!!
* Of which I have put in over twenty-five years and am an Eagle Scout. By the way I am also gay. Imagine that??

Hey Slabo
You forgot to add:
Rep. Heather Wilson (R) served in the AF
Patricia Madrid (her opponent) did not serve and voted worst judge when she was on the bench.

JymG
Conservative, Retired AF, Disabled Veteran,
Combat Controller

Slabo:
Pathetic!

I shoot down your cowpie and you toss up another. What's the matter, got no answers?

So you're off the argument of a Democratic majority in the miltary. You're off the argument that liberals are more generous than conservatives. I assume you've conceded those points, as well you should.

Look, you can't stay on topic, you can't make a reasonable argument (58 Democrats means "We ARE the military"???? Democrats give more blood in a 57% Republican majority military????), and you don't even seem to LOOK at any evidence I offer, much less try to refute it. What a time waste! Have fun playing with yourself, I've got better things to do.

Yea It's Clinton's Fault
OMgosh. Yea Clinton, Clinton, Clinton, iy's his fault. GET OVER IT. In light of today's situation we are in, what Clinton did sounds innocent; it certainly beats incompetence, arrogance, hubris and a messy war we got suckered into with cheery picked intel that was mostly wrong. Trigger happy comes to mind. Back to charity..........

WHAT IS charity or who is it for? THE POOR

Dems / liberals have had a long history doing charitable work, often called "Liberal bleeding heart".

President Jimmy Carter won the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1999 and the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002. Has done extensive work for the poor.

Under Clinton's administration major positive changes to welfare reduction and lowering poverty and homelessness where made: transform of a broken welfare system by promoting the fundamental values of work, responsibility and family, Welfare-to-work, instead of welfare as a way of life and helping homeless Americans.

Yes some programs cost money, HUD being the biggest at $5B, but we're spending $9 Billion a month for Iraq (plus the human cost). Having people in homes and working is good for the nation.

** All the GOP did was line their own pockets the last 6 years. **

The Dems are going to bring up min wage in 2007. Good for them and its about time. That is charitable as well. What did the conservative gov do the last 6 years? Give them self a raise.

This is why the GOP has a bad rap. Actions speak louder than words.

Katrina was another indicator in the minds of the people, myth or not, that the GOP was not concerned about poor and black people. May be unfair, but that's the reputation the GOP and conservatives have, San Fran Bucket or not.

John Stossle article will not change the perceptions or "myth". The way conservatives act on the Hill for helping the poor will change the "Myth".


USING RELIGION FOR POLITICS IS WRONG.

"I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven", The Bible

Kimberly's Scientific Survey
Quoth kimberly: "virtually every Republican I know does it for the tax break."

And just how many hundreds or thousands of Republicans do you know so we can judge the credibility of your survey?
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