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Wednesday, September 20, 2006
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
It's hard to tell a conservative from a liberal
by John Stossel
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In this era of a big-spending Republican administration, the differences between conservatives and liberals have shrunk so much, it's hard to tell who's who.

Take embryonic stem-cell research. President Bush has limited taxpayer funding of this research on right-to-life, not fiscal-conservative, grounds. He's not against all federal financing of the research, but he doesn't want to expand what's already being done. Conservatives generally support him.

Liberals oppose Bush's stance because they like funding what they favor, and they favor stem-cell research.

They often describe Bush's policy as a ban on research. That's not true. Researchers at Harvard, Vanderbilt, and other private institutions already spend millions on this work.

Clearly there's a difference between private and government financing, and someone can logically favor the first while opposing the second.

Many Americans think embryonic stem-cell research is immoral. Federal funding makes them pay for something they regard as murder.

Actor Mel Gibson was one of the few who stated it clearly: "Why do I, as a taxpayer, have to fund something I believe is unethical?"

Yet many conservatives miss the point.

Consider last week's U.S. Senate primary race in Rhode Island between liberal Republican incumbent Sen. Lincoln Chafee and "conservative" Cranston Mayor Stephen Laffey. Chafee accused Laffey of being a "hypocrite" because "He invested in embryonic stem cell research as a member of Wall Street community but now opposes Federal funding."

I would expect a liberal to overlook the difference between private and government funding. But conservatives should understand that there's no hypocrisy when a private investor funds something he doesn't think government should fund. So when I heard George Stephanopoulos asked Laffey about this on ABC's "This Week," I expected a principled explanation of the difference.

I was disappointed. Here's what Laffey said:

"At the federal level I've studied the subject. After $100 million and 10 years of federal money, there are no cures and no human clinical trials, while there are thousands going on with adult stem cells. So I urged the federal government to spend more money on adult stem cells because I want solutions now. My father has Alzheimer's, so no one can get up like Sen. Chafee and tell me I don't care about people."

When Stephanopoulos asked if he had a moral objection to taxpayer funding, he said, "No, I don't. I'm a businessman. It's an economic decision. I want to put money where it works."

Wait a second: That's the conservative case against federal funding? It's not effective? I thought conservatives wanted government strictly limited to what the Constitution prescribes. If Laffey is that clueless, conservatives shouldn't mourn his primary loss to Chafee.

Two years ago, when California had a referendum proposing that the state's taxpayers spend $3 billion on stem-cell research, lots of rich and famous liberals, including Bill Gates, said they were all for it.

I thought: Why don't they just donate their own money? Many of America's best innovations come from private research. Last year, a private ship reached space twice, inspired by a $10 million "X prize" offered by private investors. A private prize also inspired Charles Lindbergh to fly across the Atlantic. Government force isn't necessary for stem-cell research.

So I confronted the leader of the California campaign, a wealthy housing developer named Robert Klein: "Spend your own money. ... Gates wouldn't even notice it. It's $3 billion out of the -- what -- $40 billion he has?" Klein said, "What we're trying to do is bring the society together."

Bringing society together sounds nice, but government is force. Voluntary contributions to a charity would people together for the public good.

Klein added: "We have to provide this opportunity. If it's the will of the people."

The will of the people can mean tyranny of the majority.

Too bad neither liberals nor conservatives have scruples against forcing people to do things they don't wish to do.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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I must Take Issue with Stossel this time
There IS a difference between Conservatives and Liberals.

There just isn't any difference anymore between Republicans and Democrats.

Protect Life From The Begining
The Big Major difference between Republiccans and democrats, we republicans beleive that if you protect life from the beginging, life will fare , abundanatly, for life to be respected, protected and always mindful and prayerfully thankful for life and the healing of God Almighty. In these times we live in today, we need to be mindful of God and his precious gift of life. Take courage, faith and except Jesus, and he will show the way to true life. Amen!!!!

Moderation in all things ?
Bush the Younger has always governed by attrition. He lets the politcal winds swirl about him untill they blow in the direction he wants them to blow. It may not be the exact direction of where he wants. But in the end he gets close. And for Bush close is good enough. It is the democrates job to be Uncle Joe. Sitting on the poarch and dishing out the pork, creating new undestructable federal monstroities to soak up even more tax capitol. The closer they get us all to fifty percent of earnings, the closer the achieve their nirvana. Marxism. That Ronald Reagan started this as a politacal tactic, giving the Dems a large barrel of sugar with O'Neil to spring his tax revolution, still left true conservatives with a bitter tatse in thier months. But, it was the only way to get the tax cuts past the Marxist. And it worked. The most robust economy that man kind has ever known happened because of that deal. Whne was the last time you have heard the term Voo-Doo economics ? We out Democrated the Clintonestas. And now we're flanking the Marist ? So what does our party stand for now ? I'm looking at what my party is thowing out their as canidates and I'm just sick. Our we going to throw Isreal to the wolves once again or not ? Are we going to secure the borders or not ? What dose this party stand for ? It's good to have a large tent. One that includes blue collar guys like me. But if the Dems roll out a Joshep Stallins, does that mean we have to bend down and drink the Jim Jones cool aide too ? My party may lead me to the trough, but I ain't drinking. Given a choice between a Manchurian canidate or a New York liberal republican, I'll pass that cup by thank you very much. My Grandfather who was a Goldwater fan by the way told me, " You got to stand for something son or you'll fall for anything. "

Laffey Strikes Out
Maybe Laffey's defeat wasn't such a bad thing after all. Seriously if he couldn't hit that softball questiion out of the park and make the case against taxpayer funding for something like stem cell research then the man has no claim to the title "conservative". I'm really beginning to believe that us true believers of constitutionally limited government could have room to meet in the conference room of the Holiday Inn in Topeka Kansas.

Logic Block, Creepy Quote
Why do we conservatives elect career politicians in the hope of limiting the power of policians?

And a quote:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess of the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years.

These nations have progressed through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."

I'd say we're half-way between apathy and dependency.

You blew this one John
I had to take the time to register just so I could respond to this one. I usually agree with Stossel on about everything, but he blew this one. This current administration and Republican congress are anything but conservative. Like UncaAlby said, there is a HUGE difference between conservatives and liberals, but there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats currently when it comes to big government. Neither of them have met a taxpayer dollar they weren't happy to spend.

The source of stupidity
Christians who left Christ a hundred years ago became progressives and then liberals. Christian who left Christ since 1980 have become Republicans.

Looking to government as our replacement God is not new. As Republicans gained victories since 1980, they have become drawn further away from God and have ended up chasing for the same government dollars as the Democrats.

It is leaving God that has brought this sad state upon us.


(Kozinator13 - the quote from Post-It is from Alexis de Tocqueville written about 150 years ago.)

Source of the Quote
"Where'd that quote come from? Man, it's fantastic! Thanks for sharing."

I found this on the internet. It explains the often credited source.

"Who penned the above words? If one were to put one's faith in the reliability of the internet, the obvious answer would be Alexander Tytler. Or Alexander Tyler. Or Arnold Toynbee. Or Lord Thomas Macaulay. Or...

The truth is that despite their frequent use, the author(s) of the above quotes are unknown."

The good news is that our government is not a democracy; it is a republic. However, if we are not careful, we could follow the path described in the quote.

Quotation source
Alexander Fraser Tytler 1748 - 1813 (usually styled Lord Woodhouselee)


Well
If you can’t tell the difference between a conservative and a liberal sometimes, try using Ann Coulter’s latest book as a reference. Of course, by her standards, I’m not sure that I ever met a true liberal.

Is this what you believe?
In response to Chaffey's comment that "I'm for what works." Stossel says: "I thought conservatives wanted government strictly limited to what the Constitution prescribes."

So, let me get this straight: According to conservative ideology, even if a government program works (i.e., makes the country better, stronger), a true conservative would be opposed to it because it doesn't say so on such and such historical document.

In other words, because there is nothing in the constitution prescribing an education for all citizens, we shouldn't do it.

Wow, conservatives are dumber than I thought.

Phylo out





Liberal Goodys paid for by blood money
The pharmaceuticals are among the privates Stossel is talking about. They invest huge sums in research, and it is perfectly legal for them to do stem-cell research. If they believe they can profit from the research, they can and will spend whatever billions are required.

Why do liberals always want to do their good deeds by forcing others to pay for them. It is because liberals love force. Their hero Uncle Joe Stalin showed them the way. Just wait till liberals gain enough power. You Sorry Conservatives will be praying to save your lives rather than fighting stem cell research.

Kozinator
Koz: The truth is interesting. It's a mystery quote, that's why I didn't give it an author.

It seems to be at least two different quotes that have been attributed to everybody from Alexis de Tocqueville to Alexander Fraser Tytler to Ronald Reagan to Benjamin Disraeli. It predates 1950, where (parts of it) were quoted at the U.N.

Seems someone said it a long time ago, and people have been repeating it ever since.

Source?
Post-It writes:Koz: The truth is interesting. It's a mystery quote, that's why I didn't give it an author.
.
.
.

Bismark is credited with a similar version.


Typical
Kimberly writes: If stem-cell research involved something the pharmaceuticals could get their mits on, you can bet this president would be throwing federal money at it - in spite of his far right religious base.

.
.

.
.
Perhaps you are not aware of who is doing this research? Might I suggest actually knowing something about the subject before posting?

John is correct...
Conservatives and liberals both want the same thing, big government. Sure, Bush isn't really a conservative, but Reagan was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it Reagan that forced the states to make the drinking age 21 under threat of cutting federal funding? Wasn't MacCarthy, who by all accounts was a facist, a Republican? Isn't Ann Coulter, a woman who supports forcibly turning everyone into Christians, a conservative? Sounds like big government to me.

Liberals are much the same. FDR expanded the government to the money consuming monster it is today, Lyndon B. Johnson enacted affirmative action and racial quotas, and the list could go on.

Regardless, both sides are popular opinions. Popular opinions become oppressive because the will of the people is not always what's good for the nation. Federalism has been ruthlessly attacked by both sides since the end of the Civil War.

Phylo Se Fizer
I consider myself a conservative and I am opposed to government undertaking programs not addressed in the Constitution. But, I am talking about the FEDERAL government here.

Unless specified as a Federal function in the Constitution, I believe it should be reserved to the states, and that education of their citizens is a correct function of the individual states, with that cost funded by state taxes (as it generally has been in the past until the latest grab by the present administration).

Yes, as a conservative, I am opposed to continued expansion of the Federal government to undertake more and more programs that they deem "worthwhile" as they break the back of the American taxpayer - all 50% of them.

Just a bone
Bush is just throwing a bone to the religous right. He really doesn't care. If he cared about the morality of killing embryos he would be trying to protect them all and not just the ones under government funding.

It is all about the money but big pharma has more than enough money to do the research because the administration has done everything it can to support its wealth.

The administration and the stooges in congress have provided protection of profits by restricting drugs from Canada, putting the FDA under a funding model that is dependant on drugs getting approved and constructing a senior prescription plan that further enriches big pharma at tax payer expense. More and more legislation is passed to protect big-pharma from prosecution for selling dangerous drugs and a move towards permitting broader use of human testing without liability.

It is not about life, Bush could not care less about life when it gets in the way of money and power.

response to JohnL
My point is that, if we're not careful, we can fall into the trap of letting ideology trump what's good, and what works.

In my opinon, for a country to thrive it needs to find a balance between cooperation and healthy commpetition.

Unfortunately ideology too often gets in the way of achieving this. Because of their ideological bent, Republicans have disdain for anything that smacks of cooperation, and Democrats have too much disdain for competition.

Watch out for ideology. The issue shouldn't be Democrat or Republican, it should be: what works and what doesn't.

Phylo out


modernone
I guess you have a very short term memory! Drugs have been restricted from Canada for more administrations than you can count. You are simply infected with Bush-hatred syndrome and all that you dislike is Bushes fault. Heck, it was his fault there was a civil war here 150 years ago, he cooked up Aids in his garage, he made all those educated, intelligent muslims poor all by himself, and just to spite you, he is both the dumbest and brilliantly evil President in history. Get a life on this planet sometime, please!

Just to help
Yes, Republicans spend too much; Democrats want to spend much more; and libertarians, apart from economics, have no sense.

I've figured a few, non-economic ways for you to figure out who's conservative (much different than Republican) and who's liberal: ask if terrorism or the environment (or even George Bush) is the bigger source of evil and catastrophe; ask if multi-culturalism has been worthwhile and positive for the U.S.; ask if they believe in a universal, unchanging notion of right and wrong; ask them if education receives enough money; and ask them about universal health care.

It's always been strange to me that people have a hard time understanding why people (or groups of people) are inconsistent with their ideals: why all conservatives don't refrain from abusing power or spending inordinately when they have the power. Does it really confuse you that much?

Your problem isn't with liberals/conservatives, but with human nature. Parties and principles and ideals, by the way, don't spend money--people do! Maybe that's the source of the problem.

Phylo
I am surprised that you used education as an example of our government working. Ths last time I checked, public education in the US ranked far behind that in other countries. If you compare it to private education in the US there isn't even any competition. This is a good example of why conservatives want the government out of everything. As to Bush and stem cells, he did the cause a major favor by keeping the government out of the research. As one involved in this I know that once the Feds enter then all progress comes to a stop.
I for one feel that both parties are in our lives far too much. I don't think it is ever going to improve and likely will lead to a revolution!!

They Don't Reconize Truth
Kimberley,

It seems that you and your democrat freinds are constantly posting some dum-dum comment, after a post that contained factual information, the truth, Oh why oh way can't you dummies get the facts straight, but then I guess we all know why!!!

no phylo
What we run the risk of is letting government SUPPLY us with what we want.

When government steps into any market they drive down competition. Why? Because people who are already paying for, say public schools, are not eager to go spend even more on alternatives.

Whats more, once the government is the major or sole provider, they can withhold it from you. Go look for articles about rationing drugs in the UK and you will see what I mean.

Your (first)post is indicative of fear of the free market. If the government doesnt provide it, then no-one will. This is false. If it is something people want and need, they will pay for it. If they will pay for it people will try to do it as best as they can. Only govt can stop that from happening.

Education is the difference
Surveys confirm that the vast majority of educators are democrats. The reason is that liberals embrace an elitist world view. They distrust experience as an educational force and have no compunction about using the coercive power of the government to change people's minds (speech codes, for example).

If democrats and republicans are indistinguishable why do the vast majority of educators describe vote democratic?

Rebuttals
Kimberley says, "Why do I, as a taxpayer, have to pay for something I find unethical - like waging war in Iraq?" Because Kimberley unlike stem cell research, Social Security, Medicare, Federal Education Programs, etc. etc. etc.; providing for the National Defense is actually authorized by the Constitution. You might disagree with the policy that the President has chosen in carrying out this duty, but he has the constitutional authority to defend this country following the strategy that he has chosen. If you disagree with his strategy then your recourse is to try and defeat him at the ballot box and install someone more closely alligned with your views. Programs such as the ones that you probably favor are SUPPOSED to be immune to politics and democracy since they have no constitutional authority to exist as a component of our federal government in the first place.

Mr. Phlyo Se Fizer, please give me one example of a government program that works that couldn't be better done through private enterprise or private initiative? Libs like you confuse conservative objections to unconstitutional federal programs and expenditures as an objection to the idea or intent of the program itself. Nobody (liberal or conservative) is against education, charity, health care,research etc., it's just that conservatives believe that these enterprises are the sole domain of the private sector. The private sector simply does it better and more efficiently and without the threat of force and incarceration. You can disagree with that philosophy and mindset but I am not sure how your differing philosophy makes conservatives dumb.

Phylo Se Fyzer -- What Works?
The issue is *NOT* "what works and what doesn't." Nor should it be.

The issue is, what follows the CONTRACT between the PEOPLE and their Government. I.e., the Constitution.

If it works, if it really really REALLY is a GOOD IDEA, then it's a simple matter to AMEND the Constitution. If you think education is something that *should* be funded by the federal government, then get a Constitutional Amendment for it. Otherwise, leave it to the States or to the People.

Why is it liberals always want to just ignore long-standing Constitutional law and do whatever the heck they want to do? "It works, let's do it!"

No, strike that. Conservatives do the same thing when it suits them.

"Conservatives" $
The so called "conservatives" are the onoes who raised federal spending 50% since Bush became President. There's no way to deny that. 100 Billion Dollar farm bills, new medicare drug prescription welfare, new federal mandated education testing, etc, etc, etc.

Tom Delay, Bill Frist and other "conservative christian" leaders are spending your tax dollars like drunken sailors. Conservative President Bush has never veteod a single spending bill for any reason.

If Bill Clinton represented "big government" and "liberal" spending, how come he balanced the budget for the first time since the 1960's (under LBJ !) ?

How come LBJ and Bill Clinton can balance a budget, but self proclaimed "conservatives" can't?

And how come no one here seems to care? Wouldn't we all be better off by refusing to vote for big spenders, regardless of party?

For Sammy -- rebuttals
quoth Sammy: "You can disagree with that philosophy and mindset but I am not sure how your differing philosophy makes conservatives dumb."

Heh heh! Don't forget, Sammy, ad homenim is typically the *FIRST* argument from some of these people!

In some cases, it's *ONLY* argument.

C: "It's not the government's duty to fund health care. Free health care is not a *right*."
L: "YOU'RE HEARTLESS!!"

C: "The government wastes 80 cents out of every dollar they tax away from people. Anything that's not Constitutionally mandated should be done in the Private Sector."
L: "YOU'RE STUPID!"

Earth Calling jsh
jsh, let me sit you down and give you the grand tour of townhall -- clearly you haven't been around here very much. If you had you quickly would realize that a very significant portion of the prose being composed on this site has been dedicated to chroniciling the abandonment of conservative ideology by the leaders of the GOP. The vast majority of posters on this conservative site have been nothing short of sickened by the profligate spending our Republican politicians have delivered since their rise to power. You can call George Bush a lot of things, but "conservative" is clearly not one of them. Bush might only seem conservative to the self-loathing lunatic left that has ventured so far off the map that anyone to the right of Ted Kennedy seems to appear conservative.

Response to DavidM
Healthcare and education are two areas where I think we would be better served by a system that employs the principle of cooperation rather than pure competition. I think we can all agree that, in order to be a strong nation we need a healthy, well-educated populace.

The problem with a market based solution to these two areas is that it results in way too many losers, which is not good for the country.

I'm also concerned about the privatization of all things military simply because it opens the door to way too much cronyism and corruption, which is alo not good for the country.

I think many of you on the right have an almost religious faith in the idea of market solutions and it's blinding you to the areas in which it simply doesn't work.

Phylo out.

Give me the good old days
I know this has not much to do with the subject at hand, but when my two daughthers were teenagers and we lived at a condominium, with a pool, both my daughters were lifeguards. My daughters would come out of their bedrooms in say a skippy bikini, and my husband would say were do you think you're going dressed like that, and they would say to the pool, and he said oh no, back to the dressing room. I am proud that we are conservative. Do you think that's child abuse???

Question for Sammy
I agree. But who exactly among conservatives is publicly saying George Bush is not a conservative? Who on Townhall is urging us to vote against the "conservative" republicans betraying our principles?

Complaining to each other won't change anything. Voting out the incumbents (including "conservative" "christian" Republican ones will change things.

Too many here get played as chumps by being constantly in a lather about some social controversy (gays, Janet Jackson's boob, the Dixie Chicks, "Happy Holidays iinstead of Merry Christmas", etc

Meanwhile, the "conservative" Republicans Townhall columnists keep propping up betray our principles on spending, immigration, and too many other issues.


The Good Ole Bikini Days
That's not conservative, dearie. That's common sense. Child abuse would be making your daughters go to the pool dressed in Burkka's.

Rich
Your right about the drugs from Canada but...the motivation before now was the number of drugs available over the counter that were by prescription only here. Now its price. I take it you agree that the senior perscription plan is a corporate boondoggle that is fiscally irresponsible and how many drugs have been pulled that were approved by the FDA in the last few years. Frist is Bush's medical stooge.

The problems I have with Bush are turning over the internal affairs of the country to the corporations like Mussolini did, and then bumbleing every opportunity at foreign affairs. If you think this bunch has done anything credible or good for the country you are the on that lives on another planet. The Dems are too dumb to know what to do but Bush goes and does something and then fails. If you think things are getting any better in this country, your the one who needs a reality check.

I have trouble thinking of something significant that has gone right for this administration. The list of what has gone wrong is enormous. I don't need to go back in history or make things up to find a long list of things that went wrong. I can do that with what they did this month.

There is no brilliance, no conspriracy, no evil, and nothing approaching success. Just arrogance, terrible judgement, and a total lack of leadership.

Phylo Se Fizer-Response to DavidM
I think you answered the 'conservative' argument against gov't sponsored/supplied healthcare & education in your third paragraph - specifically that government involvement leads to cronyism and corruption. You expressed mistrust in private initiatives in the military. So do I, but for different reasons I suspect. A free market requires cooperation to succeed. Government only has force and coercion. An industry regulated or controled by government naturally attracts corrupt people, looking for easy money or power and provides them with a hiding place isolated from forces that would otherwise correct their mischief. Once in place, their vices are protected by their position.

So, in my view, the arguments are not so much the diffence between parties or between liberal or conservative, but between statism and liberty.

There is no such thing as a completely free market, nor has there ever been. Some kind of government interference has always existed. From my observation, the 'shortcomings and failures' critics often attribute to the free market, always have some kind of government fiat or human fault at its root. The most tenacious ones have a government action behind them, usually exacerbating the 'problem' it is supposed to solve. If the source of a market failure is from a human fault, the market has natural correcting mechanisms. If the source of failure is government, the fault is sealed in written law and is rarely blamed. Monopoly is a good example. (Using the original meaning of the word, not the definition of monopoly perverted to mean merely dominant, e.g. Microsoft.) I have yet to find a single genuine monopoly that was not either created by government or sustained by it, utilities, communications, railroad, etc.

I think such debates would be more productive with a clear understanding of a few basic perspectives. The conflicts between natural law (nature's law) and government (man-made) law. Between natural rights (self-evident, unalienable) and privilege (government fiat or man-made rights). Once these things are deliniated, many arguments will move out of the realm of confusion into areas of exploration for principles common to all persons.

If any of this make sense, you may like to go to the Foundation for Economic Education (www.FEE.org) for some even tempered articles about these topics. I also recommend http://www.chaostan.com, particularly the parts about The Two Laws. You may not agree with everything he says, I don't. That's healthy. But he certainly makes me think in a fresh way that no one else does. His (Maybury's) book "Whatever Happened to Justice" in particular gives some good tools sorting out what is just and what is force and coercion.

To Kathy
I admire your conservative parenting - BUT...

Just wondering...who "allowed" your lifeguard daughters to BUY those "skimpy" bikinis in the first place??

(Yeah, yeah, I know it's off-topic, but I'm curious)

Linkenjulie
Don't know if you've seen any of my posts, but i have been saying throw the rascals out for months. There are a couple more of us show up once in a while. Most conservatives are more afraid of the left in power. I am more afraid well drift into inability to survive. A good shock, painful as it might be, could re-align the country and supply the information that the wishful thinking folk who think we can just get along with everybody need to wake up. No more votes for the lesser of two evils. No representation, no vote.

Linkenjulie
Townhall certainly has its fair share of stooge Republican columnists that operate as RNC official mouthpieces rather than dispassionate arbiters of conservative thought all too willing to gloss over Bush's conservative shortcomings. Off the top of my head I would say these include Barone, Medved, Limbaugh, Lambro, Chavez, Fields, Krauthammer, Lowry, Kudlow, and Bartlett. On the other hand there are a lot of other columnists that seem to speak for conservatism rather than the RNC which we now know is not always the same thing. Again, off the top of my head I would say that these columnists fit that description: Goldberg, Buckley, Blankley, Stossel, Williams, Sowell, Thomas, Buchanan, Will, and Coulter. That's not to say that I always agree with the latter group (though that is more often the case, just that the latter group is more willing to call Bush on his conservative shortcomings and stand up for principle rather than politics more often.

My remark to jhc was more in reference to the posters on townhall since he stated, "And how come no one here seems to care" in reference to Bush and other Republicans in congress and their free spending ways. To say that no one posting on Townhall cares about the profligate spending from our once conservative party is absolutely ridiculous.

BTW, I'm with you 100% on your last two paragraphs

response to stargazer
It seems like you have a deep disdain for government. And this is what concerns me about modern Republicans; they seem to see the government as a force for evil.

I will agree that government can, and often does, overstep it's usefullness. But it seems like Republicans want to throw the baby out with the bath water. And because of this, we can't even seem to have a discussion about which government programs work (i.e., make the country better, or stronger), and which ones don't. For you people, there is basically no government program (except the military) that should be allowed to survive, even if it works.

For example, I think social security is an example of a government program that works. I think it makes sense to pool our money together like a non-profit insurance company to make sure that there is a safety net for retirees and those who can't work due to injury or illness. It's a very efficient system, and if the politicians would quit robbing from the program it would be in fine shape.

I also think that we need to make sure that everyone gets a good sound education. Whether it's handled by the states or the federal government doesn't matter. The point is that some districts are too poor to offer a decent education to their children and so there needs to be a way of evening out the playing field for those districts, and I think government is the best way to do that. I think a private system of education would be a disaster for this country because of all the people it would leave behind.

Republicans on the other hand seem to take a social Darwinist sink-or-swim attitude toward government.

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Phylo out.







Skimpy Suits
persnickety,

I must admit I am the culprit, I let them buy them because of their ages and being teenagers, I wanted to see how far they would go, but I knew big daddy wound'nt. It part of the I told you so, and also let them make decisions, with the fact of still having parents that love them and care enough to have them do the right thing.

Spend your own money, Gates
I fully agree with that sentiment. Voluntary charity contributions are the way we should go about many government funded programs. From environmental research to stem cell research to welfare. The rich hollywood types are always willing to put up yours and my money for something they believe in. Spend your own millions and billions. I don't agree with all Libertarian views but that is a staple of their platform. It should be incorporated into national politics.

UncaAlby nailed it
There's no difference between a RINO and a liberal.

HUGE difference between a conservative and a liberal, and a conservative and a RINO, and a conservative and a country-club Republican, and a conservative and a ...

Well, you get my drift.


thats a big IF phylo
If the politicians could keep from robbing it... that's just it they can't keep their hands out of it. Six trillion slolen from the program is enough for me. George bush was right on track by trying to privatize the system. The Congress as a whole doesn't want their sweetest honey pot taken away. But democrats are primarily to blame for wasteful government programs as they are more oriented towards social programs that should be funded privately, like welfare and environmental wastes, also the wasteful farm subsudies that are pushed on the country.
I totally dis-agree with the school thing. Private schools or home school is the way to go. What we get with public schools these days especially in liberal states is curriculum forced down the throat of parents like the current bills before the California legislature, AB606 and AB1056 that pushes a homosexual, bisexual, transsexual indoctrination of school children. If that were the schools my kids went to I would yank them out immediately. That's a choice for parents not a school. That's the kind of force-feeding of agenda's the democrats are so fond of. That power does not belong to the government. California or National. Minimal intrusion is the way it was designed, that's where the freedom comes in. Government is supposed to be small small small. With little or no intrusion. They have certain functions to carry out for our sake and when they don't as they usually don't(to busy worring about re-election)That's where the disdain comes from. We have the right to enjoy our freedoms with out harming anyone else as we see fit. That is neither a Republican or Democratic belief it is an American foundation.

Phylo - social security
As a lurker I was shocked you used Social Security as an example. It will clearly run dry very quickly now - it is unsustainable in its current form and no one wants to admit it. We will live to see it repudiated (my prophecy). There just won't be enough workers to sustain it (read Thomas Sowell's recent discussion).

Perhaps you haven't done enough research. If you do, your hair will stand up. I am surprised at your naivete.

Education is a horrible mess in this country, and has gone downhill since the 60s when the Feds got involved. A close friend works in the Dept of Ed - top notch researcher - and admits privately the whole dept is a waste. There is a good reason the constitution wouldn't permit a dept of ed if we honored that contract with the people.

Health care (I am in that field) is going from bad to worse in single-payor government systems all over the world. Show me one program that doesn't eventually bankrupt itself. That is a very unthinking and naive example. HIPPA and other government boondoggles (all thought of as good ideas) are damaging health care all over this country.

The reason we respect the constitution is that it is clearly the best document ever created for guiding government. Unfortunately, there is inevitable corruption that gradually undermines sound principles. Read Jack Whyte's camelod chronicals (start with The Starstone) and see if you can see the parallels.

Please do your research, Phylo, and perhaps we could have a productive dialog.
docj

Phylo Se Fizer-Response to Stargazer
Maybe Republicans do have a disdain for government. However I belong to neither of the two major parties. Government is just a tool, like a chisel or a shovel. I trust people, but I practice a diligent caution of people who have govenement power. Specifically what they do with the power and authority they acquire, all the while protected by their positions. The architects of the Constitution had this mistrust, even against themselves. The Anti-Federalists even more so. They attempted, with partial success, to design a small federal government with limited authority so that unscrupulous men (even with good intentions) had few tools to exploit the citizens the government should serve. States had the freedom (autonomy) to design (experiment) their own systems. If they failed, the damage would be limited to that state and the others could learn from that state's experience. Likewise with successes. Of course, nowadays, the Fed has consolidated almost all power to itself. There is no flexibility for movement without the approval of the centralized powerhead. As such the Fed has become a ruler instead of a servant.

Government cannot solve society's problems. It doesn't have the tools nor the wisdom. It not only goes against the design of government but its nature,i.e., force and coercion, no matter how benevolent the authority's intentions. Basically, when you give people too many powers they will ultimately abuse them and the government which is supposed to be the servant of citizens becomes their ruler. That is what we have now.

I once believed as you do but my 20+ year career in government has proved those beliefs wrong. I wonder if I would still have those beliefs if I had not worked in government? Not that I am bitter, I am grateful for the hard-knocks education, but I now realize the social goals of government programs are pipe dreams.

You mention Social Security, but even FDR admitted it was unsound and doomed to eventual failure. That is why he specified it should sunset within thirty years of its inception. Its original design is redistributionist (Marxist) and has even been called a Ponzi scheme by former Soc.Sec. directors, something which would bring prison terms for you and me. In the various programs I have worked in, approximately 25 cents of every dollar allocated by the Feds actually gets to the person it is intended to benefit. Even then the money only provides partial services - a paltry amount of benefit at a high expense to the taxpayer.

In public workshops I tell participants not to rely on government for their welfare(Ironic, eh?). First, because government is unreliable. Second, because you are bonded and beholdened to whomever provides for you. In essence you have voluntarily entered yourself into servitude. Doesn't matter if it is Social Security, education benefits or

If you get a chance, I suggest reading "The Law" by Frederic Bastiat (about 40 pages). You can download it free at http://www.econlib.org/library/classics.html

I also suggest going to the http://www.Chaostan.com website I recommended and read about "The Two Laws". Maybury states it much better than I ever could. In essence, they are the root of the Common Law system on which our system of law was based. 1. Do all you have agreed to do and, 2. Do not encroach on other persons or their property. When evaluating any action (especially government actions) ask these two questions. Did I agree to this? Did they? Are we living up to our agreement? Does this encroach on anyone or their property? If it violates one of these laws, it is likely unjust. Most of what government has become violates one of these two laws.

In the end, liberty is all that matters.

Later

Phylo-u gotta be kidding me!
My 9 year-old could pick an investment w/ a better return. Also, last I checked things that "work" aren't scheduled to go broke. Lastly, you may want to consider Madison's(the father of our Constitution) opinion on these programs. "If congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take care of religion(dept. of health & human services, social security,etc.) into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every state and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children establishing in like manner schools throughout the union(dept. of education)...in short, EVERYTHING from the highest of state legislation down to the most minute object...would be thrown under the power of Congress". If the Fed should be involved in these areas how do you explain this quote? The fact that they SPECIFICALLY listed the LIMITED congressional powers in article 1 section 8 proves the congress can't be involved in such areas. The private market is always more cost effective because of the profit motive. If your product sucks your gone! Are you more happy w/ the quality your local DMV gives you or your ipod? Do you see the DMV fighting to retain your business? Do you think Apple would make such a good product if they knew they were the only place you could go for that type of product? C'mon, look at the reality around you. The gov't doesn't do much well because there's no motive when they're spending an ENDLESS SUPPLY OF SOMEONE ELSE'S MONEY!

Mr. Stossel
You're usually spot on, but here I disagree. You say that it's hard to tell the difference between cons and libs. That's because your examples lead you to confusion. President Bush and Senator Chafee are not conservatives (no insult intended). They sometimes promote policies that contradict conservative principles. I suggest better examples - try Senators Coburn and Sessions.

Try these definitions. Conservative - espousing policies that promote LIBERTY by empowering people. Liberal - espousing policies that promote EQUALITY by empowering government.

My experience has been that conservative policies serve the public interest better than liberal ones do. This is because LIBERTY enables people to persue whatever means they can in order to acquire the things they want in life and then use those things to enjoy their lives in whatever manner they wish, so long as it doesn't impinge on other people's enjoyment of their lives. This leads to peace and prosperity. The government exists merely to protect each person's life and property against encroachment and to ensure that people honor the agreements they make with each other.

What works
Right now I can pick any doctor I want. If I pick a bad one that doesn't make me a 'loser', it just means I didn't put forth the effort to find a good doctor. This is nothing the Feds can fix. Those 'losers' will still 1: not go to the doctor til they are coughing up blood, 2: Not follow his advice, 3:engage in bad behavior because healthcare is 'free'.

In your system we get most likely 1 choice based on the current political party in office in Washington...scary.

The system works fine now, just go stay in a Hospital in England or France and see why. Watch those resistant TB they have running aroung though. Maybe some of the US Healthcare drugs can help you...

Phylo
You wanted to hear our thoughts. Here's mine.

You told stargazer that Republicans seem to see the gov't as a force for evil. Not so. We just see it as having a different role to play than you do. Conservatives believe in two rules: (1) Do no harm to other people or their property and (2) Do all that you agree you will do. The government exists to enforce these two rules. It does this by protecting our country (military) and enforcing the laws (police and courts) that protect our lives and property and enforce our agreements.

You also said that "... we can't even seem to have a discussion about which government programs work (i.e., make the country better, or stronger), and which ones don't. ... there is basically no government program (except the military) that should be allowed to survive, even if it works." This is because we understand that government programs cannot 'work' without first harming some individual(s) by violating the first rule above. An example. Let's say a fire destroys the homes of a bunch of poor people in a town. A government program is proposed to rebuild those homes. Obviously the gov't will need money to do this. It's only resource is taxation, so it will tax somebody (probably lots of somebodys) to acquire the money. This violates Rule #1. Those people taxed did nothing to deserve having their money taken. It is immoral to take from one person (or many people) and give to others without their consent, no matter how noble your intent is. How 'well' the gov't program works is irrelevant.

I'm surprized you think social security is "an example of a government program that works." It is commonly understood that this program will begin spending more money than it takes in beginning around 2017 and exhaust its reserves around 2042, even with the IOUs taken into consideration. Even raising taxes will not avoid this problem as there will not be enough working people available to pay the 5-7 trillion dollar debt that will come due then. Also, you are mistaken when you say it's a very efficient system. It's rate of return is just under 1%, less than your typical savings account.

But the bigger problem here is when you say "I think it makes sense to pool our money...". You're entitled to think that, but you're not entitled to take other people's money (Rule #1) to fund your idea. My big problem with Social Security is not that's it's run by the gov't; it's that it's MANDATORY.

I'm not sure where to begin with your thoughts on education. First off, it matters a great deal whether the state or the Fed handles it. Federal programs must be impartial to states and that means uniform. I'm sure you'll agree that one problem with gov't programs is their tendency to be 'one size fits all'. Educational ideas that work well in one part of the country may be disasterous in others and vice versa. So clearly a State-run solution would be preferable to a Federal-run one.

The bigger problem here is, again, when you say "I also think that we need to make sure that everyone gets a good sound education". I agree that education is important and valuable. But again, neither of us has the right to take money from others (Rule #1) against their will to fund this idea, no matter how noble our intentions.

Our Constitution's primary purpose was and is to establish LIMITS on what the Federal gov't may do, especially in what it may spend money on. People were so concerned about this that they wrote a list (see Article I, Section 8) of what Congress could spend money on. Then they added the 10th amendment to put an exclamation point on it. The amendment process is in place if you want to add items to the list.


Liberty Promoter
It is a shame no one has responded to your post, or people cannot logically disagree. Normally someone would have demanded you stop being so gready and you must be forced to share.

I heard a story about how Lincoln, when he was part of the state legislature, voted to help some homeowners whose homes have burned down.

The story goes a farmer approached honest Abe and said he voted for Abe, but since he now took money and gave it to others, demanded Abe resign immediately. The farmer worked against Abe's re-election.

Back to Laffey
Perhaps I am wrong, but I think that Stossel's title "It's hard to tell a conservative from a liberal" is meant to be provocative. Even more importantly I believe he is trying to make the point that self-proclaimed conservatives such as Laffey really don't walk the talk of true conservatism. Rather than make the intellectually correct arguement that the federal government has no authority to provide research for stem cells or anything else in that vein really, he chose the liberal coward retreat of appealing to the emotional aspect of this cause. I am far from a bibilical scholar, but this whole scenario reminds me of Peter's cowardly denial of knowing Jesus. When the spotlight was on, Laffey cowered from making the conservative arguement for constitutionally limited government and instead took the easy-popular-politically correct way out. Unforgiveable, absolutely unforgiveable and I am so glad that Stossel has outed this pretender.

Walter Williams in many articles has documented the flirtation with liberty that early America so courageously upheld. Unfortunately, I don't believe that I can recall him invoking the name of a President any later than Grover Cleveland (or some other president from around that time) that used his veto pen and invoked the limitations of the constitution as the reason for his rejection of that particular piece of legislation. What "conservative" politician of recent vintage has had the courage to invoke the limitations of the constitution in arguing against a particular piece of "compassionate" legislation? Laffey certainly failed, and for that he perhaps deserves the fate that he ultimately received.

'Liberal' quote of the month
Phylo Se Fizer writes
"In other words, because there is nothing in the constitution prescribing an education for all citizens, we shouldn't do it.
Wow, conservatives are dumber than I thought."


I haven't read all the posts yet, so I may be repeating someone. I just couldn't let this slide, though.

Phylo. Because there is nothing in the constitution prescribing an education for all citizens, the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT shouldn't do it.

Wow, 'liberals' are dumber than *I* thought.

Kimberly
Kimberly writes:
"Why do I, as a taxpayer, have to pay for something I find unethical - like waging war in Iraq?"

Because as an American citizen, we are going to protect you whether you like it or not.

I can't pass this one up, either
Phylo Se Fizer writes:
"My point is that, if we're not careful, we can fall into the trap of letting ideology trump what's good, and what works."
"Watch out for ideology. The issue shouldn't be Democrat or Republican, it should be: what works and what doesn't."

Are you seriously suggesting that what works in this case is government education?? For REAL???

Great Posts!
stargazer, Liberty Promoterand constitution 101:

Thank you so much for your thoughtful posts. You all put it so much better than I could. You also helped me to clarify my thoughts.

Phylo, you also help me to sort out my thinking in your own way! :)

I KNEW I should've read them all before posting!

Prescription drugs - an education
There's a good reason sensible people oppose importing "cheap" drugs from abroad. And yes, in fact it has everything to do with profits. See, drug companies don't manufacture drugs out of altruism. They do it for profit. For the rare soul on this site that has trouble with that concept, I can't help you, but the rest of us understand that profit is exactly the reason the US has the best pharmaceutical industry in the world. Capitalism works.

Now, there's some WTO rule (no doubt written by some communist) that basically says, "no fair enforcing patents on medicine; lives are at stake". That means that countries with inferior pharmaceutical industries (and commonly with socialized medicine), like Canada, can thumb their noses at the patents the US companies have on their hard-earned products. So these countries negotiate with the US pharmaceutical company on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. Being that the R&D money has already been spent, and the US market (not being international and thus no WTO communist horsecr&p) is going to foot the majority of the bill of recovering that R&D, the company often goes the "take-it" route, and sells that drug to the socialist gov't in question nearly at cost.

So, you can see that if states were allowed to "re-import" prescription drugs at WTO-loophole prices, that would mean there would be NO high-profit market left to cover that 1 billion of R&D (and lawyer) money. So what would happen? The pharmaceutical companies would stop investing in R&D, and drug research would STOP.

And thus you have the difference between liberals and conservatives: the conservative understands that profit is a motivator, that competition breeds innovation and improved products and lower costs, and that patent law and copyright laws are there for a reason and mean something. Conversely, the liberal basically has the mind of a child, and thinks, "they should give that drug away for free; to profit from it would be evil!", never stopping to consider that without the profit motive, the drug would never exist to begin with.

As for the "difference" between democrats & republicans, I agree with the other posters here. There is none, they're all just power-happy thieves, pandering to the lowest common denominator of ignorance.

Finally, to jsh, I think you owe drunken sailors everywhere an apology, as they are at least spending their own money.

Nert
Right now, our pharmaceutical firms are "taking" that take it or leave it money from external gov'ts because they are protected by that no re-import rule. If, as some would have, the law was rescinded, the price to Canadians would very quickly be the price to Americans. The Canucks could do anything they like but there is no way they could make any money re-selling us our own stuff. When laws get out of the way, natural law quickly asserts itself. As it is, the USA share of world wide drug research has been growing rapidly as the socialistic gov'ts of other first world countries set prices and make it impossible to make any profit. So the research money comes here. Big surprise, right? As noted, if drug research does not pay off here, it will cease and go someplace else.

As a former drunken sailor i was about to take umbrage at jsh gratuitous slur, but my memory is a bit blurry and in fairnes i am not all that sure just whose money i was spending.

Phylo Se Fizer Is this what you believe?

Phylo Se Fizer writes: Wednesday, September, 20, 2006 10:08 AM

In response to Chaffey's comment that "I'm for what works." Stossel says: "I thought conservatives wanted government strictly limited to what the Constitution prescribes."

So, let me get this straight: According to conservative ideology, even if a government program works (i.e., makes the country better, stronger), a true conservative would be opposed to it because it doesn't say so on such and such historical document.

In other words, because there is nothing in the constitution prescribing an education for all citizens, we shouldn't do it.

Wow, conservatives are dumber than I thought.

Phylo out

You are a liberal and feel that government must fund education because it improves the citizenry. How in the world did George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and men of their ilk get educated before we had a federal government? These men certainly did not have a constitutional right to a federally funded education and yet they fought a revolution and birthed a nation. Washington and Jefferson were very conservative men but they must have been dumber than you thought.

You imply that federally funded education works. If it works so well, then why does the federally funded education system across America turn out more and more illiterate children each year while we keep throwing more and more money into the system?

Could it be that federally funded education does not work as well as privatized education? If it doesn't work shouldn't we be open to a better method?

Phylo Se Fizer response to JohnL

Phylo Se Fizer writes: Wednesday, September, 20, 2006 12:04 PM response to JohnL

My point is that, if we're not careful, we can fall into the trap of letting ideology trump what's good, and what works.

In my opinon, for a country to thrive it needs to find a balance between cooperation and healthy competition.

Unfortunately ideology too often gets in the way of achieving this. Because of their ideological bent, Republicans have disdain for anything that smacks of cooperation, and Democrats have too much disdain for competition.

Watch out for ideology. The issue shouldn't be Democrat or Republican, it should be: what works and what doesn't.

Phylo out

Traditional ways are time tested and proven. If they have worked over centuries then why, by your own point, should we fall into the trap of letting your liberal ideology trump those traditional ways?

In your opinion you feel that government cooperates with its citizens. Governments make laws and enforce them at the point of the gun. That is coercion not cooperation. There is no competing entity for the government to compete with.

Ideology bent works both ways. Why must a sitting president submit to your ideological bent when he was voted into office based on my ideological bent? You are in the minority. Shouldn’t you be cooperating with him?

By your own point, I should watch out for your ideology because you insist only your way works.

Phylo Se Fizer response to stargazer

Phylo Se Fizer writes: Wednesday, September, 20, 2006 6:43 PM response to stargazer

It seems like you have a deep disdain for government. And this is what concerns me about modern Republicans; they seem to see the government as a force for evil.

I will agree that government can, and often does, overstep its usefulness. But it seems like Republicans want to throw the baby out with the bath water. And because of this, we can't even seem to have a discussion about which government programs work (i.e., make the country better, or stronger), and which ones don't. For you people, there is basically no government program (except the military) that should be allowed to survive, even if it works.

For example, I think social security is an example of a government program that works. I think it makes sense to pool our money together like a non-profit insurance company to make sure that there is a safety net for retirees and those who can't work due to injury or illness. It's a very efficient system, and if the politicians would quit robbing from the program it would be in fine shape.

I also think that we need to make sure that everyone gets a good sound education. Whether it's handled by the states or the federal government doesn't matter. The point is that some districts are too poor to offer a decent education to their children and so there needs to be a way of evening out the playing field for those districts, and I think government is the best way to do that. I think a private system of education would be a disaster for this country because of all the people it would leave behind.

Republicans on the other hand seem to take a social Darwinist sink-or-swim attitude toward government.

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Phylo out.

I am not a Federalist. The Constitution was signed into being with the understanding that State governments were strong and the Central government was weak. We started out as a United States not a Federation of States. Jefferson spoke strongly against a strong central government because the United States had just shrugged off the yoke of a strong central government under King George. He feared a tyranny. State’s Rights ended and a strong Federal government was formed under Lincoln. Yes I have a distain for BIG Government. When I vote Republican I do so with the hope that BIG government will decrease. You and your liberal democrats openly seek to enlarge the government while conservatives and republicans at least profess a desire to shrink it.

As far as throwing the baby out with the bath water, if the baby is dead, then throw it out and bury it; don’t continue to feed it. You seem to feel that the government through all of its programs seeks to do great good. What you fail to see is the unintended consequences that always show up. All of the pet projects you advocate cost money. To pay for those projects all forms of government require 42% of my earnings. When does the cost resemble slavery? Is it slavery when the government takes 100% and then hands me what it thinks I should live on? Maybe we should have George Soros pay more, or Bill Gates… yeah that’s fair. Let’s vote on that so they can stay out of my pocket. Instead of robbing from one program to fund another, why not just drop the programs that are not cost effective? These programs are the dead babies; throw them out.

As far as Darwin is concerned, you seem to be the believer that government should evolve. It has grown into a monster that is concerned about every aspect of our lives. It watches us from the street corners via remote cameras, it tracks our purchases, it even insists that we wear seat belts. No I do not want it to sink. I prefer to take a sharp knife to it and cut away the bloat.

okay, I get it
You people actually do feel that government is evil.

And it shows in the way you people govern. Because you have disadain for government, you fill government positions with cronies who don't care about doing a good job. And you spend money like drunken desperate housewives because you think it would be better if the country went bankrupt.

Thanks for enlightening me as to your positions.

Phylo out.


there you go
*sigh*



NO! Phylo, you still do NOT get it…

Phylo Se Fizer writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
okay, I get it

You people actually do feel that government is evil.

And it shows in the way you people govern. Because you have disadain for government, you fill government positions with cronies who don't care about doing a good job. And you spend money like drunken desperate housewives because you think it would be better if the country went bankrupt.

Thanks for enlightening me as to your positions.

Phylo out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Counting myself, there are 11 responders to you. I went back and re-read the posts. You are the only one who said that government was evil; everybody else quoted you to rebut that statement. Do not put words in our mouths. They are your words. You apparently find government evil and want us to repeat your words.

Government is a tool. Similarly, the army is a tool and a shovel is a tool. It is not the tool that is good or evil but the person wielding the tool. That is why the founders of the country put together a constitution that limited the powers of those in office. Those in government are to serve the people not rule over the people. Is that concept too hard for you to wrap around? Did you read “the Law”? Stargazer post the website earlier. It is very interesting reading. I kept seeing your arguments explained there.

My disdain for BIG government means I have contempt for those who use the power of government to force their will upon the citizenry. It does not matter if that person is a Democrat or a Republican. Historically, the Democrats seek to grow the government and the Republicans seek to reduce government. But lately, the Republicans have done their share of growing too. That does not mean that I agree with their big government. It means that I and every conservative with me must speak out more often and strongly about small government.

I have faith in my own decision making. I do not need the government butting into my private life to make those decisions for me. If you do not have faith in your own decision making and feel you need government telling you what to do then you and I are at an impasse.

Thomas Jefferson preached small central government and Alexander Hamilton wanted a big central government. It is the same argument. Small government grows an independent citizenry and individualism. Big government grows a dependent citizenry and leads to tyranny.

When I was inducted into the Army I took and oath to protect the country against all enemies within and without. The Constitution has not changed as far the limits of government. You stand against the limited government outlined in the Constitution. Are you an enemy within? Perhaps you GET it now.

I can tell the difference
Thats just a myth being passed around to make liberals feel good. The difference is as great as day and night. If it wasn't for spending and stem-cell research you couldn't tell the difference between a conservative and a liberal. The myth is a good one because liberals wants conservatives to believe if it's so hard to tell the difference then it's OK to vote for a liberal. Once you remove the ideology aspect of it, you endanger the lives of Americans. I'm not really to toss in the towel on national security and the war on terrorism for stem-cell research and spending. We can still pay attention to domestic problems, but lets not go overboard with it's hard to tell a conservative, from a liberal just because we have domestic issues, that liberals wants to make bigger then the war in Iraq. These sideline issues are not going to get Americans to take their attention of terrorism and let our guard down again. We can take care of both foreign and domestic issues. When the issues of life, death, national security, terrorism, and the threat of Islamic justice and Islamic rule comes up, it's not hard at all to tell the difference between a conservative and a liberal.

It's A Moot Point
Back in July, (A Freeborn American) I wrote “While billions of dollars have been spent during 20 years of research, no one has medically benefited from embryonic stem cells (financial benefits to the researchers is another story); no therapies have been developed; in fact, researchers have not even progressed to the point of being able to conduct even one human clinical trial.”

On the other hand, bone marrow stem cells and cord blood stem cells have been used to successfully treat close to 100 different diseases with as high as 90% success rate.

“There is no real ethics dilemma if your choice isn’t even viable.” It should be a moot point, but the liberals won’t let go of it
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