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Wednesday, August 30, 2006
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Schools need competition now
by John Stossel
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This week's back-to-school ads offer amazing bargains on lightweight backpacks and nifty school supplies. All those businesses scramble to offer us good stuff at low prices. It's amazing what competition does for consumers. The power to say no to one business and yes to another is awesome.

Too bad we don't apply that idea to schools themselves.

Education bureaucrats and teachers unions are against it. They insist they must dictate where kids go to school, what they study, and when. When I went on TV to say that it's a myth that a government monopoly can educate kids effectively, hundreds of union teachers demonstrated outside my office demanding that I apologize and "re-educate" myself by teaching for a week. (I'll show you the demonstration and what happened next this Friday night, when ABC updates my "Stupid in America" TV special.)

The teachers union didn't like my "government monopoly" comment, but even the late Albert Shanker, once president of the American Federation of Teachers, admitted that our schools are virtual monopolies of the state -- run pretty much like Cuban and North Korean schools. He said, "It's time to admit that the public education system operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve. It more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy."

When a government monopoly limits competition, we can't know what ideas would bloom if competition were allowed. Surveys show that most American parents are satisfied with their kids' public schools, but that's only because they don't know what their kids might have had!

As Nobel Prize-winning economist F.A. Hayek wrote, "[C]ompetition is valuable only because, and so far as, its results are unpredictable and on the whole different from those which anyone has, or could have, deliberately aimed at."

What Hayek means is that no mortal being can imagine what improvements a competitive market would bring.

But I'll try anyway: I bet we'd see cheap and efficient Costco-like schools, virtual schools where you learn at home on your computer, sports schools, music schools, schools that go all year, schools with uniforms, schools that open early and keep kids later, and, who knows what?

Every economics textbook says monopolies are bad because they charge high prices for shoddy goods. But it's government that gives us monopolies. So why do we entrust something as important as our children's education to a government monopoly?

The monopoly fails so many kids that more than a million parents now make big sacrifices to homeschool their kids. Two percent of school-aged kids are homeschooled now. If parents weren't taxed to pay for lousy government schools, more might teach their kids at home.

Some parents choose to homeschool for religious reasons, but homeschooling has been increasing by 10 percent a year because so many parents are just fed up with the government's schools.

Homeschooled students blow past their public-school counterparts in terms of achievement. Brian Ray, who taught in both public and private schools before becoming president of the National Home Education Research Institute, says, "In study after study, children who learn at home consistently score 15-30 percentile points above the national averages," he says. Homeschooled kids also score almost 10 percent higher than the average American high school student on the ACT.

I don't know how these homeschooling parents do it. I couldn't do it. I'd get impatient and fight with my kids too much.

But it works for lots of kids and parents. So do private schools. It's time to give parents more options.

Instead of pouring more money into the failed government monopoly, let's free parents to control their own education money. Competition is a lot smarter than bureaucrats.

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John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Not just school selection...
...but let's allow teacher selection as well.

X amount of money per student given to the teacher of the parents' choice and we would see the incompotent teachers without classes while the best would be overflowed with students.

Vouchers
Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.

And, oh, by the way, vouchers.

ending public schools
no issue is more important in america than getting kids away from public school teachers.

the vast majority of public teachers have never in their lives worked in the private sector yet purport to be able to educate children in a modern globlized world. they by and large are unqualified!

for the kids ....shut em down!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For Jimmy Carter
No, adding teacher selection is not necessary.

When schools start losing customers because their teachers suck, the teachers will be fired -- or, "encouraged" to improve.

Parents don't want good schools
Competition would be a great thing for public schools. However, my experience as a teacher is that there is a large group of parents who do not want teachers to set high standards for discipline or academics.

These parents favor such things in the abstract. Their tune changes when their child causes trouble or has difficulty. I've battled many parents and have even been threatened with lawsuits because I've set my standards high.

I would be quite curious to see how these parents would react to competitive schools. Would we be forced to drive our standards down to attract students, or would schools find different levels to appeal to different markets? My fear is that the former would occur.

For Waski
***Competition would be a great thing for public schools. However, my experience as a teacher is that there is a large group of parents who do not want teachers to set high standards for discipline or academics.

These parents favor such things in the abstract. Their tune changes when their child causes trouble or has difficulty. I've battled many parents and have even been threatened with lawsuits because I've set my standards high.***

So? There are large groups of people that do not want decent food, clothing, or housing. Do we shaft the rest of the population because there are some that have no desire for something better?

The largest portion of parents want good, strong schools. The way homeschooling is growing exponentially is proof positive of that. Yet, most teachers I've met seem to have a very low opinion of parents. Maybe that is the reason teachers fight so hard against vouchers. They might actually have to be nice to those that pay their salaries - just like the rest of the population.
HS Mom

For Waski the Squirrel
"Daddy, I want a squir-rel!
Daddy, I want a TRAINED squir-rel!"

Actually, Waski ol' bean, you bring up a very valid point.

Education is probably one of very few endeavors where the vendor needs to have a longer view than the consumer.

On the one hand, most parents want their kids to get good grades. Those grades translate into better paying positions in the long run. And kids who make more money are better able to take care of their parents when they get old and feable.

(At least, that's what I keep telling MY kids! They tell me, "Nah, dadsy, you're goin' to a HOME!" ARRRGH!)

Certainly there are too many parents who are willing to "bend the rules" towards this objective, including the threat of lawsuit to inflate grades undeservedly.

But on the other hand, this hurts the school's repu-tation. If they start handing out "A's" to any moron who asks for one, or makes threats for one, then it becomes readily apparent that an "A" from this school isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

What good is it to get straight A's from a school that routinely caves to parental pressure? Everyone, including higher learning institutions such as high schools and colleges, and employers who recruit graduating students, will know that even the ficus tree in the lobby gets straight A's here. (Making the ficus tree an even better employee prospect, because it won't take 2 hour lunch breaks.)

So they'll be much less inclined to accept graduates from such a school.

Soon, parents won't want to take their kids there, because they'll find out that the graduates can't get jobs, and can't get into the next higher institution. The school will fail.

That's how competition in free markets work. You don't always get the best results right away, and you don't always get the results you personally think ought to be best. But overall, almost everything improves for everybody.

WEIRD FILTER
r e p u t a t i o n

The dirty word filter did not like this word, because of the four letters, P, U, T, A.

So I stuck a hyphen in it, and made it repu-tation. Now it's happy.

That is WEIRD!!!

Teachers, Schools, and Random Thoughts
I have two friends (married to each other) who are both teachers. They have excellant academic credentials and tried working in public schools. One worked in the Biology department of a fairly good public middle school. He excelled and rose to running the Biology department - much to the chagrin of his "unionized" counterparts. Between his peers and the parents of his students, they gave him such a hard time about his success and standards for the students, that he eventually quit and moved to a private school where he makes better money and has supportive parents.

His wife worked in a public school - also teaching biology (among other things, because it was required that a teacher teach any subject, whether they knew anything about it or not)- that was in a less economically fit area. She had problems with students threatening her, parents complaining about her standards, and fellow teachers demanding that she lower those standards. She eventually got fed up and quit when she got pregnant. She has since gone back to teaching at a "higher class" public school - but with a few stipulations. One is that she only teach biology.

So, what's my point? In both cases, these people have a love of teaching and, despite setbacks, have found ways to exercise that love against a system that just doesn't work.

If we had more teachers that cared like these two, we'd have better school systems.

I plan to send my kids to private schools if I can afford it (with or without vouchers - though I don't think that my tax dollars should fund public schools that are failing their students). However, if my kids end up going to public schools, then I'll help them make the best of them.

I believe strongly that a parent has the most influence on the education that a child gets from any school that they go to - public or private. An involved, educated parent can overcome most deficiencies in the public school system. And, it's probably not realistic to expect the public school system to change anytime soon....

Why Home Educators Dislike Vouchers
Parents who home educate love their children immensely and love to teach them the best of the best. Their children easily capture this love of teaching and educating for a “higher purpose”. That, coupled with an array of exciting, proven tools to teach, explains why home ed is successful. In effect, we encourage our children to reach beyond their grasp, and we're there to help them do that every step of the way. What a privilege!

Without even considering the loss of one income, my family has sacrificed well over a hundred thousand dollars in cold, hard cash to pay for the "schooling" of other children who live in very expensive homes. Yet, most home educators do not want vouchers. Why? Vouchers would curtail the freedom we enjoy and very probably enslave us to the very "system" we're fleeing. What we do want is to be freed from having to pay for the government schooling of others, the subsidizing of exorbitant salaries to fat educrats who feed off the system, and for any education that is diametrically opposed to whatever we hold dear such as our chosen faith, our love of family, and our freedom.

Competition via vouchers can also be risky for private and religious schools. Teachers in charter schools have unionized, and vouchers will ultimately require that the recipient follow the dictum of the state. And, if vouchers are only sought for students in failing schools, well, take a look around you. Despite the No Child Left Behind Act, more and more schools are failing because there are insufficient, well-educated teachers, increasingly dumbed down curriculum, and too many children from dysfunctional homes.

The "quick start" program to positive educational change would be to remove all subsidies from families who could afford to pay their own way in a government school. When that happens, you will wake up a sleeping giant who will demand better. That will commence a trickle down effect of educational improvement for everyone.




Money and Teachers
It gives me the chills to consider what some teachers are paid here in the south suburbs of Chicago.

A local newspaper did a story a few years ago that I still can't forget. The two highest paid teachers in the region were both gym teachers from my high school, and both were earning -- I am not making this up -- $150,000 a year.

In the retirement schedule for teachers, these two gym teacher/coaches will each earn over $120,000 a year in retirement...for life. Welcome to the Bank President Pension Program. ur tax dollars at work.

Other studies have shown that per-pupil cost of education in Illinois is $10,000 a year, without capital costs (buildings and equipment). Think you could run an exciting school where kids can learn a lot more than the public schools for $10,000/year per kid AFTER YOU PAY FOR YOUR BUILDING AND EQUIPMENT?

Alaska has 'internet' schools already
Because it's well, ALASKA.

And, for many of the same reasons, 'internet' schooling would be good for 'innercity' youngsters who WANT to learn and not be intimidated by those who don't.




Voucher Problems
The average cost per student is close to $9,000, a cost that doesn't include the land or the buildings. Still, most voucher programs only want to provide parents with about $2,500 per student.

Worse, the state still wants to have an entire bureaucracy "monitoring" the voucher system. You know what that means: lots of committee meetings and filing clerks and long people sleeping at their desks.

For vouchers to work, parents with school-aged children should receive at least the same $9,000 per year per student, plus additional money for the cost of buildings and land.

Next, there should be no control over how parents use this money. Sure, a few parents will use the money for bad purposes, but those are the same parents whose kids are already drug addicts and gang members anyway. Most parents actually love their children and will spend a good deal of time evaluating what they get for their money.

Over time, we will attract more talent to the teaching pool. Innovative teaching methods will improve the acquisition of knowledge. Technology will revolutionize the delivery of education.

No where will this revolution be more apparent than in home schooling. Far more parents will use the money to teach their own children and will use that money for books, computers, educational services, and the like. Millions of new, small "businesses" will spring up over night, each with slightly different views on how to go about the task of teaching their own child. The level of innovation will be unparalleled because this will truly be a labor of love.

Most importantly, insulated teachers with socialist, secular philosophies will become a minority of the free market.

Most importantly,


I have no problem with public schools
that function well. I have always lived in a town where the schools prepare kids to go on to college. In all 3 of my sons' graduating classes, some kids have gone to Harvard--not my kids but some. However, there are schools, mostly innercity that fail, mainly because many of the families don't emphasize education and the teachers tire of hitting their head against a wall. The parents/kids in those schools who do value education and don't have any choice break my heart. My problem in the towns I have lived in is that there is not enough control on the costs. Some towns comparatively seem like they are efficient but until you have competition you won't really be able to tell if they are actually efficient. They have no incentive to control costs. They can request a tax increase and if that doesn't pass they just request it again. Amazingly a big % of the requests are voted down but eventually one gets through. And there is never any gratitude for those that pass.
A recent study I read about said that test results for public school kids in NY I think were almost as good as those in private schools. What they don't want you to know is that private schools spend half as much per kid. Education is valuable and education money should be well spent so that all priorities can be met in a town. Unions and tenure don't help either. In the high school in this town a teacher was caught using and buying heroin with students and former students. That felony did allow her to be fired. But can a stoned junkie be an effective teacher? She was not in any trouble until she was caught. Ifa stoned junkie can teach adequately then teachers are overpaid.

Is Education intrinsically flawed?
To anyone who lives in a large city, education appears seriously flawed. There are some schools that produce terrible results and others that do much better. If we believe the rhetoric of teachers (that they accomplish education in direct proportion to pay), we must pay the teachers more in schools where the performance is lower. If we believe that better teachers get better results, we should fire the teachers in the bad schools and hire better ones.

However, it may be possible that teachers do not accomplish learning. It may be that this is something accomplished by the children. This could explain why smart children do better than dull ones. It may make us feel better to think no child is left behind, but the facts shows us otherwise. It is not money and it is not teacher skill (although better teachers can motivate more and this does produce small improvements), it is about the differences between children.

The learning by one generation from another has historically been accomplished through apprenticeships. Even medical education is founded on the importance of this method. The idea that learning can be reduced to the transmission of data in a classroom divorces it from the context that is found in the relationship with an older and knowledgeable person.

The rapid adoption of our present system of education in the late 1800s owes much to the modernist view that the commodity of children should be processed in a factory. Women were told they were too stupid to raise the children God gave them. If they wanted to secure a good life for their children, they better make sure their children got a “good education”.

Many “experts” talk about he value of socialization as applied to student in a collective. In reality these experiences often have more in common with the socialization found in other institutions such as prison.

Some argue that a technological society can only function with this approach to education. Most people in technological fields will tell you that the bulk of their learning came after they were out of school.

The only real value of our educational system is that it allows parents to be free of their children without actually having to kill them.

Stop comparing...
Please stop comparing public and private schools in the US. It is apples and oranges. Also, please stop comparing home school to public schooling. This is apples and rutabegas...

Why? Private schools can say no. They don't have to enroll a student if they don't want to. They can kick the kid out if they misbehave. By and large, private school parents care deeply about their child's education. Far too many public school parents do not.

Home schooling has student:teacher ratios of 1:1, 2:1, sometimes 3:1. Rarely do they have a 25:1 ratio. I would love to see a home school parent suffer under the rules a public school teacher has to... You get 30 students. You can't kick them out. You can't send them to the office. You must teach this topic in this way, etc. It is no wonder home school kids do well in comparison to a publically schooled child.

Teaching is a profession deserving of respect. Most teachers are good people who want to do right by the kids. Sure, there are bad apples. But under the systems you all propose, there will be children who GET NO EDUCATION AT ALL.

One poster has said that $9000 should flow to the parents in CASH. Think about that for a minute... is that what you really want to do?

Let's see. The irresponsible parent, the one on crack, or the one who keeps having babies they can't afford will now get $9000 CASH per child PER YEAR to "educate" their children? Show me that and I'll show you a person who cranks babies out as fast as they can get pregnant, and I'll show you a run down apartment with a BIG screen HDTV and a crack bowl on the kitchen table, and I'll show you far too many kids watching Jerry Springer instead of learning in a public school.

Great idea... keep'em coming.

Jon Stossel: Flim Flam Man
This guy is full of it. You know how I can tell? It's all happy talk without any of the problems that would come along with competition.

He seems to forget that competition creates winners and losers. All he seems to want to focus on are the winners.

The winning schools will, of course, fill up very fast leaving many children out in the cold. And everyone knows who is going to get into the good schools. It'll be the parents who are most involved with their children's education, and it'll be the wealthy and well connected members of the community.

I've heard people say that vouchers would be good for blacks. I think that's non-sense. A big part of the problem in the black community is the lack of two parent households, and a lack of parental involvement in the children's education. In a system with winner shools and loser schools, I think everyone knows who would end up int the loser schools.

The free market system is fine for business. It's good to weed out the losers. But eductaion is a different matter. We can't just iliminate the failing schools because we have to educate all of our children.

My solution:

I agree that the beauracracy is a major part of the problem. But the solution is to give principals almost complete autonomy in running each school, including what is taught and when. They should have the authority to hire and fire all employees of the school. And they should answer directly to their local school board. The State would only intervene in conflicts between the school board, the parents, and the principle. Sure there would still be bad schools, but all you have to do is replace the principal.

I know, the teachers unions would have a lot of trouble with this, but I think that problem can be worked out through negotiations.

We need more accountability in schools, but what we don't need is to create a system of winner schools and loser schools that leaves too many children out in the cold.

Phylo out.

Government schooling is destined to fail
It is no surprize government schools are failing because they fit the textbook definition of Socialism, and socialism fails everytime. I refuse to destroy my kids, either spiritually, academically, or socially, by subjecting them to the incomptency and downright evil of the union-controlled government school system.

I saw a bumper sticker recently that read: "My child will NEVER be taught by a NEA Teacher". Does anyone know who put these out or where they can be obtained?

Education and Competition
The statistics on home schooling are pretty scary to me, but not for the reasons one might expect. That home-schooled children (taught by your average citizen, not a trained educator) can so outperform the public schools says volumes about how degraded our public education institutions have become. Something clearly must be done.

I agree that allowing competition into the educational arena would absolutely transform our children’s education for the better. But I wonder how the US military (a more monopolistic entity than public education) attains the excellence that they do without competition? Perhaps there's built-in competition, like rewarding excellence and penalizing incompetence that the school system could emulate? That would probably require the elimination of the unions, and the schools' "social engineering" agenda.

In any event, I’ve been hearing about how poorly American children perform relative to their industrialized world counterparts for many years, how this bodes poorly for America’s future, and yet nothing changes. Even President Bush could not get through his education agenda in full, which would have been a laudable first step. Somehow the citizenry must be made to understand what’s at stake and what alternatives exist. Success stories (e.g. charter schools) need to be covered more widely.

The bacteria of stupidity
I really beleive the parents of this age, are kidults. Growing up in the free love and plenty of pot, or drug days, has left our adults minds open to the bacteria of stupidity when it comes to raising children. This hurts the children's formative years, when children need direction and instruction to grow into healthy and sane indivisuals. Take what the educators are educating children today, sense when is it the place of teachers to teach very young children about sexual matters??? Where do they get their information about a child's gender issue's. Myself growing up, I have 10 brothers and 3 sisters. I considered myself a tom boy and did everything I could to stay out of dresses and play with dolls, because I was the oldest girl, and had 3 brothers, I always wanted the joys of playing as a boy. Let's clear the air, a child doesn't care about gender indentinity, all they care about is play. I think it is very telling that adults associate this behavior with sex, because children do not, all they care about is acting like the people they admire, my brothers to me, was the ones I looked up too. I think adults are concerned with sex and push this sexual label on children and then children are dragged into a world they are not mentally, emotionally, or pysically capable of understanding. We do our children great damage and harm by subjecting them to knowledge and information they have no desire to comprehend. Once the pandora's box is open, the damage has started. Many adults get caught up in the gender thing as fact, fact is we all have traits of man and female desire's, that does not make us both sexes or that we should become the other. This kind of thinking is the exact opposite of reality. Remember it is realisic for a young girl to want to play ball or climb a tree, thats how children learn balance, in more than one way, and also it is perfectly normal for a boy to want to cook, or help his mother set the table, or want to sew or any of the other things that they see the people they admire do, or maybe just have a human need to be with, this is called interaction with family, the most natural and normal of activities. Adults, educators and politicians stay out our childrens very private gender issues and let the parents teach them, and lead their children to be healthy and happy people. Playing is a child's most memerioal times growing up, not sex, not sex indenitity, or sexual matter, this puts our children at risk of all sex preditors and perverts. So parents, adults and educators protect those children and keep sex out of the playpen.

VOUCHERS
Let's see? We see government as the problem not the solution. I personally have never in 65 years see an efficient cost effective government program.

So we clammer for VOUCHERS from government to send our kids to schools of our choice.

Where does the money for the VOUCHERS come from?

Well golly gosh, that comes from you now doesn't it? First they take it from you then you ask for it back.....seems to be an inefficient and costly middleman in there, eh?

Com'on people get your heads up! Cut the middleman out of the picture. NO FREAKING Property taxes in the first place, you keep the money and you send your kid to whatever school you want to.

phylo needs econ 101
Its funny the one issue leftists see in shades of black and white is economics.(An issue which is anything but) There are many degrees of success, and not just 1 winner and everyone else going bankrupt. You need only look around to see this isn't the case.

Plus you assume the lesser schools in a competitive system will be worse than the current crop. Says who? This is conjecture. The worst private sector services usually are equal or better than the government run counterparts(see hospitals).

I hate to tell you Phylo, but when people walk up with people in hand there will be plenty of people wanting to be 'winners'. Not only that but the winners will keep improving and expanding to take customers from the other winners. Since everyone wants education for their kids, and government vouchers are basically the same as cash I would predict a very large amount of schools available.

The ones that fail deserve to.

Phylo's "eductaion [sic]"
"Jon Stossel: Flim Flam [sic] Man"

The correct spelling is flimflam.

"I've heard people say that vouchers would be good for blacks. I think that's non-sense [sic]. A big part of the problem in the black community is the lack of two parent [sic] households, and a lack of parental involvement in the children's education. In a system with winner shools [sic] and loser schools, I think everyone knows who would end up int [sic] the loser schools."

The correct spellings are, nonsense, two-parent, schools, and in.

"The free market system is fine for business. It's good to weed out the losers. But eductaion [sic] is a different matter. We can't just iliminate [sic] the failing schools because we have to educate all of our children."

The correct spellings are education and eliminate.

"I agree that the beauracracy [sic] is a major part of the problem. But the solution is to give principals almost complete autonomy in running each school, including what is taught and when. They should have the authority to hire and fire all employees of the school. And they should answer directly to their local school board. The State would only intervene in conflicts between the school board, the parents, and the principle [sic]. Sure there would still be bad schools, but all you have to do is replace the principal."

The correct spellings are bureaucracy and principal.

I think it is humorous when people debate education and apparently lack education themselves.

typo
I meant to type 'walk up with MONEY in hand' ..lol

???
"Stossel, I guess the fact that the latest stats show as a whole private schools are educating DUMBER grads is OK with you."

I would like to know where you found this information, as I have never heard of any such statistics. Also, what are "as a whole private schools"? You must have meant to say "...show, as a whole, private..."

Let's try to rewrite this sentence.

Mr. Stossel, the latest statistics show that private schools are producing poorly educated graduates. I suppose that is acceptable to you.

Apparently, you attended one of the aforementioned schools.

competition, homeschool, individuality
Just looking at the comments here demonstrates the diversity of opinion on education and the great difficulty in making effective, lasting improvements to our childrens education.

But Mr. Stossel is right - competition in education is the best hope to help guide ALL parties to real improvement. Parents will "vote" with their choices and true, effective reform will result (despite many bumps along the way). A little competition will help a little, a lot of competition will help a lot.

I already chose a "competitve" approach as a homeschool father. But I also care about institutional schools and think they have much they can learn from the growing laboratory of homeschoolers across the nation. All schools - homeschool or otherwise, and more importantly ALL parents - need to better understand the "law of the individual" and employ far more aggressive, individually tailored approaches for each and every individual child.

I marvel at the education my children are enjoying and benefiting from, especially compared to my public education of over 25 years ago.

EDUCATION
James Dobson & Gary Bauer state in their book, Children at Risk: “A great Civil War of Values rages today…Two sides with vastly differing and incompatible worldviews are locked in a bitter conflict that permeates every level of society…the struggle now is for the hearts and minds…the war is not fought with bombs and bullets, but with ideas.”

The struggle is for the hearts and minds of our children. The enemy’s weapon is the public (government) school which has indoctrinated generations of children to believe in evolution, relativism, feminism, multiculturalism, socialism, mindless tolerance, sexual promiscuity, phony self-esteem, and indoctrinate children into accepting homosexuality as a normal alternate lifestyle. Schools have also lowered academic standards; teach that God is irrelevant, and that the philosophy of secular humanism holds the best hope for mankind.

The goal of secular education is to sever our nation from its Christian foundation, and instill a secular worldview in children so that when they become adults serving in the courts, the government, the news media, the entertainment industry, and even in our churches a secular worldview will prevail. This process has been so successful that a study by the George Barna group reports that only 7% of Christians have a biblical worldview.

There are 31 million children between the ages of 5 and 13. Studies show that by the time children reach the age of 13 they have developed the worldview and the relationship with Christ they will probably carry throughout their life! A report by the Baptist Council on Family Life found that 88% of children who attend government schools leave the church shortly following graduation from high school, and most never return! Contrast this with another study which showed that over 90% of home schooled children accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Not surprisingly, children who have gone thru government schools are much more difficult to reach with the Gospel. We must place more of our resources in educating and discipling children before their hearts are hardened.

Children are our most precious possession. Christians need to provide a Christian education for their children either by home schooling them or placing them in a thoroughly Christian school. Deliberately or accidentally we disobey God when we send our children to a government school.

For decades Christians have been losing the cultural war. The reason is that we’ve been treating symptoms rather than the cause of the problems - the secular schools. Unfortunately most Christians are unaware of the toxic effects which schools are having upon children, and spend time, energy, and money in the hopeless task of working to improve them.

In Deut 6:4-9 and in many other Scriptures, God gave the responsibility to parents that children must be brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. But 2 hours in church does not make up for 35 hours/week in a government school. Secular Humanism has no place in the heart and mind of a Christian, yet this exactly what government schools teach. Consequently Christian children are being devastated spiritually, morally and academically by a godless ideology taught to them on a daily basis.

Martin Luther stated, “There is nothing which will more surely earn hell for a man than the improper training of his children; and parents can perform no more damaging bit of work than to neglect their offspring…it is highly necessary that every person regard the soul of his child with greater concern than the flesh which has come from him, that he consider the child nothing less than a precious, eternal treasure, entrusted to his protection by God so that the devil, the world, and the flesh do not steal and destroy it. For the child will be required from the parent on Judgment Day in a very strict reckoning.”

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Mt 10:28

Professor R. L. Dabney of Union Theological Seminary said, “The education of children for God is the most important business done on earth. Every parent especially ought to feel, every hour of the day, that next to making his own calling and election sure, this is the end for which he is kept alive by God – this is his task on earth.”


By jove! Could unions be the problem?
I think you are on to something. But let's not assume that they attain that excellence efficiently. But at least they attain it.

lewczakj writes: Wednesday, August, 30, 2006 8:57 AM
Education and Competition
But I wonder how the US military (a more monopolistic entity than public education) attains the excellence that they do without competition? Perhaps there's built-in competition, like rewarding excellence and penalizing incompetence that the school system could emulate? That would probably require the elimination of the unions, and the schools' "social engineering" agenda

Why aren't all schools going to improve?
Phylo Se Fizer writes: Wednesday, August, 30, 2006 8:38 AM
Jon Stossel: Flim Flam Man
The winning schools will, of course, fill up very fast leaving many children out in the cold. And everyone knows who is going to get into the good schools.

That would be the goal under competition. We should leave no child in a failing school Those schools should be improved. You seem to have a socialist's viewpoint. Under the current system, it is the affluent who have access to the better schools. You'll notice Chelsea Clinton didn't go to a DC public school or Arkansas State. Neither do Jesse Jackson's kids--legitimate and illegitimate. A competitive system improves everyone. Democrats should care more about kids and their education than the $'s and volunteers coming from the teacher's unions.

Coolmoose
Only an idiot or a democrat would propose giving this in cash to the families. I agree that discipline is the area that prohibits kids in public schools from achieving what they could. But why don't the teacher's unions address this and try to come up with ideas that would address this situation. I retired at the end of last year and did some subbing during the long winter. If I got an AP or Honors class, all you have to do is give them the assignment and they sit quietly and do it. If you got a normal class and gave them an assignment it was the time for them to start fooling around. This is a yuppie suburb where education is important to lot's of families so their kids don't get distracted by the silly kids. And I get the feeling that no one cared that much about the non honors kids.




coolmoose writes: Wednesday, August, 30, 2006 8:30 AM
Stop comparing...

unionism

Nobody here seems to be able to make the connection between lousy schools and unionism. The primary function of a union is to promote and protect the interests of its members--meaning the interests of teachers, principals and even custodians will always supercede those of parents and their children.

The unionized "business model" for public education has had decades to prove itself. And it has--it is a dismal failure.

Education
Everbody is forgetting one thing. It is a simple word. You can't teach a child without it. It is called DISCIPLINE.

The other Jeff
Is not me. I don't believe in nit picking typos. After all, we cannot go back and fix these posts after the fact.

That said, the problem with schools today is that in the early part of the last century, we took the assembly line model from the factories and put it in the classroom. As my third shameless plug of the day, I did my first two blog posts on my prescription for fixing education in this country. Click on my name to read them. Let me know what you think.

Phylo
Ah, Phylo, it always brightens my day to read your nonsensical comments. It makes me happy that I choose to turn my brain to the "ON" setting after waking in the morning (well, at least after drinking my first coffee anyhow) instead of wandering the world in a state of perpetual stupor.

Competition creates winners and losers? You're darn tootin' it does. Not everyone is of the same skillset. Not all schools and curricula are of the same value. The smart kids, the good schools, and the quality curricula will succeed, and the alternatives will fail. That is what is called "the way it should be".

The alternative is what we have right now. That is that instead of the winners being allowed to win, everybody simply gets turned into losers. Everybody is certainly equal in your little utopian wolrd. Equally misserable, that is.

Typos
"After all, we cannot go back and fix these posts after the fact."

We can, however, type posts correctly the first time.

Facts are stubborn things - - - - -
Teachers; take some responsibility for your work product. American kids are best financed and the worst educated in the western world. How about starting out with an apology?

Any country that can put a man on the moon, and invent quilted toilet paper, should be able to prevent teachers' unions from intellectually maiming each generation they get their greedy hands on.

Vouchers are the answer, but....
...it would take a legislative earthquake to change the current system. Most politicians, Democrat and Republican alike, are in the pockets of the public education unions. Our politicos are owned and operated by these Marxists.

A voucher would provide choice and the public schools would adjust, become more efficient, or at least fire the incompetent. As well, under vouchers, the personality-disordered parent as well as their predator offspring would have to change. The latter would be just too much for our "caring" leftist bureaucrats in public education.

And thinking "private sector", parochial schools excel because there is scarcity. The public ed. unions cry foul saying that said schools throw out disruptive or unwilling students, leaving a more committed student body. On the contrary, said disruptive or unwilling students KNOW they can be thrown out and thus change for the better. Everybody wins.

Then again, whenever vouchers come up for a vote in our state (Michigan), the voters -- the people, vote them down. The current system is what the sheeple, oh, excuse me, the people, want.

UNIONS
Unions have just about caused the Big Three to fall to their knees and they are doing the same to our public schools. Why would anyone want to pay union dues in the first place? and who ends up with the money? You know the union mentality is a little wacky and out of touch with reality when union leaders support the rank and file and encourage them to go on strike for sometimes a year or longer for the possibility of maybe gaining a raise of $1.00 an hour. Geez.. now that sounds like a good idea, bankrupt your family, loose a whole years salary and sometimes cause a company that is already struggling to keep the doors open to just give up and go out of business. Then your job is gone forever, but the union still has your dollars that you have been generously donating to them over the years. Just doesn't make sense.
Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views and opinions.

Amen.
Yet again, Mr. Stossel, you hit the nail right on the head. I myself have attended both private and public schools. In the private school I attended, I was given 1-on-1 attention in the areas I needed extra help in. In the public schools, trying to get help is like trying to stop the Mongol hordes with nothing but a trowel and some dental floss. Maybe MacGyver could do it, but a person not in a TV show couldn't.

Voucher problems
I have seen a few others mention my main objection to vouchers.

Once vouchers are instituted, the state will have to "make sure they are used properly". And I can see why. If there were no checks, then someone could easily set up some sort of scam to cash in on vouchers without providing any service.

However, once this monitoring starts, what would prevent the state from dictating how and what private schools teach? Or what credentials a teacher needs? Or anything else?

Once the state starts dictating private school conditions (it already does to some degree in most states, but it is fortunately a very minimal set of requirements), once the state starts setting conditions for vouchers, I fear that, rather than public schools becoming more like private, instead private schools will become more like public.

In addition, one of private schools' strengths has been the ability to be selective in students admitted. They can select those students they find abelt o keep up with their ciriculum, and can expell any trouble students. Once vouchers are in place, I fear "access to education" rules will prevent private schools from exercising such discretion.

I know it is a radical suggestion, but I think the only solution to our public school mess is to eliminate public education entirely, let the tax payer keep that money appropriated for education, and rely on private firms, religious institutions, and charitable enterprises to provide for education.

Yes, some students will probably get little or no education, but they are likely the same students getting no benefit from their free education now. Any parents who value their children's education will find a way. (Don't scoff. My two very lower-middle-class parents managed to pay my way through 12 years of private school, even while they paid taxes to educate someone else's child. It would have hurt much less without the tax for public schooling we never used.)

a few comments
Despite my liberal leanings, I also feel that our K-12 school systems are not working well. However, conservative thinking has contributed to this more than you think:

1. Almost every other white-collar profession pays better than teaching (even after factoring for the 9-month work year). As far as teachers go, you get what you pay for. Many conservatives seem to think that the best and brightest in a given field should be willing to work for next to nothing if they are paid by the state or feds. MARKET COMPETITION CUTS BOTH WAYS, and the government must be one of the competitors in order for schools and programs to work as efficiently as conservatives demand.

2. My understanding is that the format and structure of how kids are taught in public schools goes back to the industrial revolution, when big business (which equals conservative) needed public schools to churn out huge numbers of factory workers with a certain level of reading, writing, and math skills. A big emphasis was placed on uniformity -- the big business moguls wanted these factory workers to know the same things, be content in their roles and always accept necessary limitations. This is why it is so difficult for public schools to accommodate childrens' different learning styles and abilities. High-ability learners get few opportunities to truly excel -- they're always drug back into the pack. Naturally, teaching becomes geared toward the lower-ability learners, resulting in high-school graduates with below-average academic skills. Then the colleges and universities have to play catch-up to bring students back up to speed.

3. Conservatives make the assumption that all private schools are better than any public school, but my sense is that this is population-dependent. In smaller cities (50,000 or fewer people) away from metropolitan areas, most private schools are much weaker than their public counterparts. The privates have far less money for academic materials and pay their teachers much less than in the public schools. Families typically send their kids to these privates because of a deep religious affiliation or so their kids can participate on more athletic teams. (Typically, the public schools are much larger than the privates.)

vouchers? Hope not!
Jonah Goldberg fans will cheer after reading this. I think some school competition would be healthy, but this is a case where a half-way measure, vouchers, will create so many implementation nightmares, that we're better off sticking with the public school system structure we have or going completely private.

Public schools already HAVE competition
I'm an educational consultant.

If you ask just about any teacher what they think of educational reform they'll invariably tell you that they just want it to hold off till they retire.

Democrats depend on unionised teachers for much of their core support. Republicans are trying to break up that block of supporters. When you get down to the nitty gritty.

The point of all this is that NONE of the players in the public school educational delivery system give a damn about generally improving student performance. Teachers want as little disruption in their lives as can be managed while politicians just want power, as usual, and to hell with anything else.

You will realise that that there is already a lot of competition in educational services supply on the market if you can just, for a moment stop thinking of a school as one-stop-shopping for educational services. In my end of California if a public school teacher is poor you tend to see the kids of educated parents who would be taking his or her courses showing up at the local community college to take the alternative offerings instead. This is very powerful in that you can complete a course that public school teachers stretch out over a full academic year in a semester.

California rules let students substitute off-campus course offerings for up to about 40% of their course load. Smart parents make a lot of use of this option.

Distance learning options typically cost about $325-350/course these days. They are also often a lot lower risk for a marginal student in that they are taught on a mastery basis rather than the drop-dead basis that you find in most public schools. Mastery courses allow for retesting for course modules that a student has trouble with until, typically, they get the grade they're looking for. Public school teachers hate mastery teaching. They should, it puts more load on the instructor.


Not a hard problem to solve.
The problem will be addressed as soon as blacks realize that the Democrats consistently put the interests of teachers' unions ahead of their kids' education.

If blacks would support the party fighting FOR vouchers, instead of the one fighting AGAINST vouchers, the Democrats would reverse themselves on this issue they would leave skid marks.

You want to win on vouchers? Go after that voting block.

Right now, too many people fall for the line that pensions for teachers equals achievement for students.

On Public Education

These comments on the public education system are from the viewpoint of a 54 year old single man who is forced to pay taxes (to which I do not object) to support the education of the young.

The law holds parents responsible for seeing that their children are educated. Courts have ruled that parents have the primary right to determine the educational needs of their children.

My taxes supporting education should be going to assist parents in exercising their rights and fulfilling their responsibilities for educating their children. Why then are some parents denied access (those who do not send their children to public schools) to my tax monies while others (those who send their children to public schools) have access to these same monies? Simply put, access to my tax monies depends on parents abnegating their right to determine the educational needs of their children. Consequently, my tax monies are not actually collected to assist parents in educating their children but are instead collected for some other reason or reasons.

Some of the obvious reasons for the collection of theses taxes that have allowed the establishment and maintenance of this discriminatory system are the ignorance or stupidity of some people, the greed of other people, and the misguided good intentions of still others. However, regardless of the reasons, ill-considered actions can and often do have significant, negative consequences.

In this case, these significant, negative consequences include restricting citizens’ rights to free speech and the free exercise of religion, and establishing a monolithic system of belief. Still other significant, negative consequences are violations by the government of citizens’ due process rights and right to equal protection under the law.

The current system restricts “free speech” in violation of the 1st Amendment by funding some types of speech (the type of speech found in the public schools) and refusing to fund other types of similar speech (the types of speech found in private schools). After all, the U.S. Supreme Court, in campaign finance rulings, has related access to money with free speech.

The current system violates the “free exercise” clause of the 1st amendment by requiring parents in need of assistance to surrender their beliefs in order to receive the assistance. For all parents, but especially for the poor, it is “de facto” coercion into abandoning their own beliefs.

The current system “de facto” creates an “establishment of religion” in violation of the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment. There are philosophies, beliefs and ways of life being taught in the public schools. The government is supporting these philosophies, beliefs and ways of life to the exclusion of all others. The whole purpose of the “establishment clause” is to prevent the government from supporting only one system of belief to the exclusion of others.

The denial to some parents of access to tax funds has been arbitrary on the part of government. These monies were denied without due process of law. The government does not have nor has it offered a legitimate reason to provide financial educational assistance to some parents and to deny such assistance to other parents. This is a violation of the due process clause of the 14th Amendment.

The current system flagrantly discriminates (by not providing equal funding to private schools or home schooling parents as that given to parents who either abdicate or acquiesce to the public schools) against my and others’ philosophies, religions, belief systems and viewpoints in favor of the governments’ own philosophies, belief systems and viewpoints. The taxes collected to support public education are based on laws. These laws permit the governments to assist some parents in educating their children and at the same time deny other parents assistance in educating their children. All parents are not being treated equally under the law. This is a violation of the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment.

Neither the fact that the government is run by people beholden (through campaign contributions) to the educational establishment nor that many (probably a majority of our citizens) favor the current system of public education justify theses violations of citizens’ constitutional rights and this exercise in government discrimination. Neither of these reasons or any other reasons make the current situation right.

You might ask what iron I have in this fire since I am a single man with no children. Let me tell you what is raising my ire. The government is forcing me to support an establishment of “religion” (in the broad meaning of the word). This use of force is not my idea of free exercise of religion. Establishing only one system of belief and forcing me to support that one system is a violation of my rights under the 1st Amendment.

The current system of public education is government: 1) impermissibly restricting free speech; 2) denying the free exercise of religion; 3) making rules regarding an establishment of religion; 4) denying assistance to people without due process (their should be a legitimate reason for denying assistance for some when the assistance is intended for all); and, 5) denying people equal protection of the law since some parents receive assistance and some parents do not and yet all parents purportedly have the same rights and responsibilities. This last enumerated act of government is blatant discrimination against people based on their beliefs. If the law protected everyone equally, then all parents would receive support to educate their children.

In summary, the current system is arbitrary, capricious and unconstitutional. In the long run, it will create a divided society filled with social unrest. Arbitrary discrimination will never lead to a better society. It is manifestly impossible to get everyone to think the same way and attempting to do so is delusional at best. Stop the madness. Assist all parents or assist no parents.


Good on paper....
Makes some really good points. Here's another. Many economists have postulated that whenever the cost of a good is subsidized to the end user, the price will generally rise by the amount of the subsidy. Applying this to the voucher debate suggests that the cost of non-public education will simply rise by the amount of the voucher subsidy, and parents will still be paying some out-of-pocket money.

While many on this message board decry unions, unions do perform the basic role of ensuring an effective "minimum wage" for its members. In order to wrest power from the unions, simply do what Fortune 500 employers do to attract college grads with the requisite skills: offer so much money that the idea of needing a wage gurantor to act as an intermediary between employee and employer is rendered moot. So who's all for raising teacher pay so that top college grads will realistically view teaching as a career alternative to engineering or investment banking without thinking how much income they will have to forgo?

How to fix the public schools
Yeah! Let's destroy the unions. Break 'em up! Everyone knows how destroying the other unions helped to strengthen the middle class, create job security and provide living wages.

As a public school teacher, let me try to explain why creating competition will actually hurt students and - yes - increase your taxes:

Tenure was created for a number of reasons - one was to give teachers security. When dealing with 120 - 150 students, you need that. A person's career cannot be at the mercy of a few disgruntled parents who aren't happy with grades their children EARNED, a personality conflict with administration or any other petty reason. It takes at least three years to get tenure. I've seen plenty of teachers fired before getting tenure. Do a few bad teachers get through? Yes. Even without tenure and the unions, bad teachers will always get through.

A second reason why tenure was created was to offer security to students. Students need consistency. It costs time and money to train teachers. The last thing schools need is high turnover rate. Try educating students when teachers come and go every few years in search of higher paying jobs.

You want to fix the schools? Stop tying teachers’ hands! Like one previous writer said, allow us to say "no." If a student his not pulling his weight, then he should pay the consequences. In public schools, if a student fails a state test, it isn't because he or she did nothing all year. It isn't because he or she showed up late for the test. It isn't because when you call the parent the response is "Look, I just want him to get out of high school. He never tells me where he is going. He comes home late every night..." No. The problem is the teacher didn't motivate him or set the standards too high (A teacher in my school failed 17 seniors because they refused to do the work she assigned. She has been barred from teaching seniors. A friend of mine was fired from his job because he caught seniors plagiarizing, gave them failing grades and refused to change them.)

You want to fix the schools? Stop scaring the teachers into handing out grades. It is an unwritten rule that until you get tenure, you don't fail a student or you lose your job.

You want to fix the schools? Teach students to read, write and do arithmetic in the lower grades. Stop using theories and methods written by college professors who have never even taught in a public school.

You want to fix the schools? Shift the tax burden from the homeowners to the corporations that don’t pay their share. Corporate America has done a wonderful job extorting money from the government. “Give us huge tax breaks and bend some laws or we’ll ship these jobs elsewhere. Hey, thanks for the tax breaks and for bending the laws for us, but we’ve decided that paying the average worker between 35K and 70K really puts a strain on executive bonuses and perks. We’re shipping operations to Sri Lanka. The people there earn $3 a day and are happy to have it!”

You want to fix the schools? Give students some freedom. Imagine putting students into classes where they might actually succeed. Why force a kid to take three years of bio, chem. and physics when all he really wants to do is learn how to repair cars, do carpentry or become a chef? My district has a technical school where kids learn vocational skills. These underachieving “dumb” kids excel at competitions within their vocation. I’ve always believed that students should be given some control over the types of classes they want to take. Start creating clusters that offer the classes students want and NEED. Keep traditional classes for those students who don’t want to choose. Not every student is going to be a rocket scientist. We need to recognize that.

One last thought – vouchers for private and religious schools could not be more un-American. Using public dollars to fund private education that excludes the people who pay the taxes is just so wrong.

“Thank you for your tuition money Mr. Smith, but Johnny questioned an interpretation of the Bible. We’re throwing him out of school, but we’re doing it AFTER the date on which a full refund is given.”

“Thank you for the tuition money Mrs. Jones, but Susie refuses to acknowledge that America is the Great Satan. We have issued a fatwa against her.”

“Thank you for the tuition money Mr. Davis, but it seems that little Timmy likes other boys and we simply cannot have that sort of thing here. Oooh, I’m sorry, but our rules clearly state we can expel any student, at any time, for any reason, without refunding your money.”

“Yes Mrs. Thompson. We realize that your son was offended by some students wearing t-shirts that said ‘Black People Don’t Work As Hard As White People,’ but this IS a private school. We are exempt from non-discrimination laws. We believe that every student has a First Amendment right, but be aware that if your son insists on coming to school wearing a ‘Black Power’ t-shirt, we cannot guarantee his safety."

Other benefits to choice.
Its interesting no one has touched on other benefits to vouchers; ones that even liberals should embrace.

If you have a child who is being bullied at a public school, what do you do? You have to pray that the administration will be clever enough to manage the problem. Under school choice, you just move the child.

What do you do if you have a son or a daughter who is "distracted" by the opposite sex (mostly a high school problem)? My daughter loves her all girl school because boys aren't constantly misbehaving and posturing just to show off.

What if you have a child with a brilliant intellect? What if you have a child who (as noted above) isn't interested in college but would like to become a skilled plumber, carpenter, electrician? Is anyone here going to suggest EVERYONE needs to go to college? Is anyone going to suggest we DON'T need skilled tradesmen?

The point is; every child has different needs (often changing from time to time). Your boy might do fine in a coed environment, mine might be distracted by young women. As it stands now, public schools offer parents no ability to make distinctions like these among their children. Its one size fits all...or nothing.

If we were an impoverished society, with limited resources, it might make economic sense to use a monopoly educational system. However, we've long passed that point. At some $10,000 per student, $200-300,000 per classroom, being spent the only issue should be what makes the MOST sense. Given the differences between each child (just like the differences between any two consumers) it makes more sense to give the power to the consumer and let the market adjust to the resulting demand. That way, most of the children will be best served, most of the time.

What people like Phylo want is utopia. Every child gets taught exactly the same information, the same way, with the exact same resources and they get exactly the same outcome. Perfect equality in, perfect equality out. Unfortunately, in real life, dealing with human beings of different strengths, weaknesses, initiative and parental support makes achieving equality of outcome a fool's pursuit.

I'd ask anyone who supports "public" schools to explain to me why they also likely support a child's freedom to choose the college (public or private) of their choice. Why should a private college student get any public subsidy (school loans or tax breaks) when a private, primary school, child gets absolutely nothing? Is there something magical about an 18 year old student that is missing in a 17 year old student?

They won't be able to defend the contradiction. The reason why they get subsidies at 18 of course is because they can vote and because many, many politicians retire to lovely (and lucrative) college "teaching" and administrative positions. Positions they earned by earmarking monies for various college endeavors during their legislative careers. Pull the plug on that gravy train and see how many politicians get plush campus jobs.

Someday we'll look back on the stupidity of monopoly government primary schooling with shame. So many talents wasted, so much money wasted and for what? To make some people obsessed with the notion that only government can "insure fairness" feel good, nothing more.

Here we go again.....
...in my home state, the best achievements come from 1) Home school 2) Public education 3) Private schools and last are the charter schools. The majority of the charter schools are christian, and many of them fold within two years of opening. I don't know the reasons why they are folding other than they are at a fairly consistent rate.

The problem I see with Public schools are not so much the educators, but the administrators. Our schools are top heavy with admin, but too lite on teachers. We have one of the highest rates of teacher to student ratios in the nation, but we score in the top 15 annually in performance. I wonder what our schools would do with less admin and more teachers? Besides saving taxpayers money.

There are no easy answers, but blaming teachers for a thankless job is not the right way to go. Teachers are increasingly having to become social workers rather than teachers, and this is in large part due to poor parental supervision.

Vouchers are not the answer, I see vouchers in our state as a huge failure. With the performance numbers showing dismal results, I am not sure why people think competition is a good thing. Is it ideology over facts?

Personally, I don't like the idea of home school, but I cannot argue with the results. And the results are in, home schooled children have the best rounded education.

stojeff2005
You almost had me. I agree with much of what you say, but you went overboard.

"Hey, thanks for the tax breaks and for bending the laws for us, but we've decided that paying the average worker between 35K and 70K really puts a strain on executive bonuses and perks."

In publicly held companies, the executive salaries are paid buy the shareholders. Their income does not effect the income of the blue and white collar workers. The shareholders decide what to pay them and must approve of the salary and bonuses. This way, the executive pay is tied directly to company performance. If the stock does well, the executives get payed well.

"“Thank you for your tuition money Mr. Smith, but Johnny questioned an interpretation of the Bible. We’re throwing him out of school, but we’re doing it AFTER the date on which a full refund is given.”"

I've never heard of such a thing happening. Even if it did, the uproar would be huge.

"“Thank you for the tuition money Mrs. Jones, but Susie refuses to acknowledge that America is the Great Satan. We have issued a fatwa against her.”"

Same here; I doubt anything like this has ever occurred.

"“Thank you for the tuition money Mr. Davis, but it seems that little Timmy likes other boys and we simply cannot have that sort of thing here. Oooh, I’m sorry, but our rules clearly state we can expel any student, at any time, for any reason, without refunding your money.”"

Ditto.

"“Yes Mrs. Thompson. We realize that your son was offended by some students wearing t-shirts that said ‘Black People Don’t Work As Hard As White People,’ but this IS a private school. We are exempt from non-discrimination laws. We believe that every student has a First Amendment right, but be aware that if your son insists on coming to school wearing a ‘Black Power’ t-shirt, we cannot guarantee his safety.""

Now you're just being silly.

Obviously you are trying paint private schools, many of which are religious, and primarily Christian based, as bigoted and intolerant. My manager's children go to an Episcopal private school, and religion is discussed and they have daily chapel, but no one is forced into anything. I know non-Catholics who send their kids to Catholic schools who could not be happier.

I agree with many of your points, but please leave out the bigotry.

Everybody solves the problem
Competition is worthless with no competitors. Things like "No Child Left Behind" must be dropped from the vocabulary. Some make it, some don't. Education must be made to be a viable and important goal for students before any changes in the system will work. We pay taxes for Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic. Not football, track, and basketball. But this is only part of the problem. All of them have to be addressed before competition will have any effect.

For Kali
Whadya mean, "no easy answers?"

You mean no POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT answers. The *real* answers *are* easy.

1. Privatize education
2. Worried about poor people going uneducated? Set up vouchers (like food stamps).

End of story. Piece of cake.

Private schools by necessity will have JUST enough administrators to administrate, because that costs money. No longer being a publically funded monopoly means the money will no longer be available so readily. Unnecessary administrators will be asked to either leave, or teach.

But, since these solutions aren't politically expedient (read: the politically powerful Teachers Union stands in the way of virtually every reform effort), it will be an uphill battle.

for phylo
Phylo, your pseudo-liberal attitude toward blacks is showing. Vouchers mean choice. Black parents may or may not make better choices than other groups, but given choice i trust people will make better decisions for themselves than even the most altruistic government or patron. This is why Republics and representative governments produce better living conditions and more freedom and quality of life than dictatorships. It is why free market competition defeats monopolies. The biggest single problem with our public school system is that it is basically unaccountable. I am a retired engineer, now a teacher. There are lots of other problems we could talk about, but winner loser schools are no problem.

Teachers are now better paid
GoodOnPaper writes: Wednesday, August, 30, 2006 11:42 AM
a few comments
Despite my liberal leanings, I also feel that our K-12 school systems are not working well. However, conservative thinking has contributed to this more than you think:

1. Almost every other white-collar profession pays better than teaching (even after factoring for the 9-month work year). As far as teachers go, you get what you pay for. Many conservatives seem to think that the best and brightest in a given field should be willing to work for next to nothing if they are paid by the state or feds. MARKET COMPETITION CUTS BOTH WAYS, and the government must be one of the competitors in order for schools and programs to work as efficiently as conservatives demand.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here in suburban Boston a teacher with 15years and a masters and the required continuing ed makes about $75,000 plus their benefit programs plus a 6 hour day plus 4 months off a year. With very little ingenuity they can get side businesses to take them over $100,000 and still not work the days/hours a private sector employee works. Plus they can retire at full pension as early as 58. That's not a bad deal. None of my teacher friends complain about salary anymore. Connecticut and NY pay even more. I do understand the burnout but if they aren't enjoying teaching then get a private sector job where you can get fired for substandard results.


Fixing The Schools
Jeff in Texas:

When you are right, you are right. I did not mean for my posting regarding private schools to sound so bigoted, but unfortunately, that's how they came out. My point - and not communicated well - was that private and religious schools are generally exempt from federal, state and local anti-discrimination laws (I have no problem with that at all. Private organizations have the right to exclude others and demand conformity.) My problem is using public dollars to fund private organizations that exclude people.

I hope I have cleared things up.

Root Cause
Once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away . . .

Star wars could very well have been prophetic allegory of our public education.

Just as the Empire activated its clone armies to uphold law and order, so too did our Federal Government jump into the abuses of community based public education to rectify cases of racial bias. With the successful substitution of Hispanic and Black racism for White racism in public education, and substitution of atheism, hedonism, and communism for Christian-Judeo values, the Federal Government calls it a victory and settles in to collect the huge tax revenues and power it has garnered “in the name of children”.

The Empire moves to squeeze tribute from the provinces and shut down choices of the individual citizens.

Want a Solution? Get rid of HEW function of Federal Government (Thanks - Bill Bennett), then shut down all schools of education (Thanks -Thomas Sowell), and start federal prosecution of NEA for RICO violations (Thanks - Ann Coulter).

Teachers Are Now Paid Better
Goblue:

I agree with you and I'm a teacher. It would be very difficult to find a teacher not making a liveable wage in the Northeast. It's the other parts of the country that pay their teachers so poorly. My cousin lives in Florida and just graduated with a degree in English. She considered going into teaching, but the starting salary hovered around 24K. Florida is not the inexpensive place it used to be.

I would also like to offer the flipside to how teachers who no longer enjoy their job should quit and get a private-sector job: Those of you in the private sector who aren't happy with your pay and benefits and feel that teachers get so much for so little work should quit complaining, go back to school, get a Master's and start teaching.

Six years ago I gave up a private sector job. I was making around 72k. After five years of teaching in the NYC suburbs, I'm making 68k. I'm not complaining at all. One thing that does need to change - and it is an unpopular view in my opinion - is that teachers need to contribute more to their health benefits and pension. GASP! I wouldn't have a problem with an increase in my insurance costs. Nor would I have a problem paying into my pension for all the years that I work, rather than just the first ten. Fair is fair.

John Doe
Your first paragraph makes sense and is a very major reason why the inflation rate on college tuition is so high.

But your second paragraph falls short. Unions mainly impose work rules which stand in the way of efficiency. Locally elementary school teachers file grievances when they have playground duty. And they have in their contract what time they have to be at school--am and pm. What other educated profession does that? Unfortunately, teachers are not interested currently in working hard and should not make engineering money because they don't have those kinds of skills. Teaching is an occupation apparently that you can master in a short time because there are no good or bad teachers--they all make the same.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John Doe writes: Wednesday, August, 30, 2006 12:40 PM
Good on paper....
Makes some really good points. Here's another. Many economists have postulated that whenever the cost of a good is subsidized to the end user, the price will generally rise by the amount of the subsidy. Applying this to the voucher debate suggests that the cost of non-public education will simply rise by the amount of the voucher subsidy, and parents will still be paying some out-of-pocket money.

While many on this message board decry unions, unions do perform the basic role of ensuring an effective "minimum wage" for its members. In order to wrest power from the unions, simply do what Fortune 500 employers do to attract college grads with the requisite skills: offer so much money that the idea of needing a wage gurantor to act as an intermediary between employee and employer is rendered moot. So who's all for raising teacher pay so that top college grads will realistically view teaching as a career alternative to engineering or investment banking without thinking how much income they will have to forgo?

Teacher pay
I get so frustrated with this whole discussion. Consider this.

There are 112 million total households in the USA, of which 56 million pay taxes.

There are 6.2 million full or part time K-12 teachers in the USA today teaching 58 million students. That means that each teacher needs their full salary plus the admin costs, building costs, etc to be paid for by 9 tax paying families. Since teacher salary is 1/3 of the total cost of education, each teacher's salary needs to be paid for by 3 tax paying families. So, to pay them $40k, each family must pay taxes of $13,333 just for education. And lets not forget social welfare, military, roads, etc that they also have to pay for.

Well, we will soak the corporations.... Who get all their money from the people. So you pay more for the products. Whoopie. Soak the rich! If Warren Buffet and his $35 billion put it all into teacher salary, each teacher would get a whopping $5,645 this year and nothing next.

The only way to deal is to reduce the number of teachers needed to do the job. Check out my blog for more statistics and for my ideas on how to do this.

Note all of these statistics are from the US Census bureau.

Fixing the Schools
Stojef2005,

I understand where you're coming from, but I feel differently about the "public dollars" argument. If I paid the taxes, it is my money. If I am not getting something in return, the I should have the right to demand improvements or get some, if not all, of my money back to fix the problem myself.

This means that I keep my school tax dollars, and use them to send my child to whatever school I want, including public schools. Competition will create better schools.

"My problem is using public dollars to fund private organizations that exclude people."

Then I guess you have trouble with every college in the United States. They all exclude people to some extent. Of course, it is not for race, religion, etc..., but people still get excluded. Not everyone gets to go to the best schools. Using that argument is unfair, since private schools have self-defined limits on the number of students they take. Can they exclude someone for virtually any reason? Yes, they can. However, most do not do it for fear of public backlash.

Some schools do give preference to certain people, but with good reasons. For instance, Catholic schools will offer reduced tuition for parish members. This, in effect, is giving preference based on religion, but it makes sense.

Why?
Why does anyone think that it is the proper role of GOVERNMENT to educate our children?

I'm a Marine Turned Teacher
When it comes to public education--"send in the Marines." We improvise, adapt, and overcome. I am a public school teacher (eleventh grade English), and I do support vouchers. Competition creates incentive. I've infiltrated the communist regime, and I'm executing my mission: educating all my students, not just those who are eager to learn. I'm including two emails, copied word for word, to report my situation. If you know a literary agent, I'm also writing a great book based on these stories! :-)
“Dear Mr. Culpepper,
I am writing this without my son’s knowledge and would like to keep it that way. It is so “uncool” to have parental interaction!
This semester has been decidedly different and I wanted to wait until it was over before expressing my appreciation. Without a doubt, your impact on my son has been profound. Male teachers are few and far between (at least in my son’s case) and in his case, it was somewhat of a stepping-stone.
Your everyday conversations regarding how valuable their free education was and the need to consider their future – there really is a life they need to plan for just around the corner – began to hit home. This was a kid who had sunk to the lowest of lows in academic achievement and was seemingly unable to find his way out. Yet, he began to care. He began to be excited and actually wanted to discuss what was talked about in class (on subject matter or teacher comments) when he came home. His growth in daily vocabulary and writing skills (comprehension of the big picture/steps to achieve it) began to carry over in other classes.
The past week has been very traumatic in his athletic life (he chose to quit the hockey team due to personal issues with the head coach); yet he was able to stay focused, with fairly even temperament, and valued the importance of not losing sight of his class requirements. Trust me – that’s a whole lot of growth.
This is just to thank you for not just doing your job but for doing it exceptionally well – and in the case of my son, really connecting. In doing so, his future semesters look a lot brighter. Even more exciting, he looks forward to school (although he’d never admit it).
With much appreciation,
Lynnan Renwick
(Nick Williamson’s mom)

One year later I found this letter in my teacher's mailbox:

"Dear Mr. Culpepper,
The first day I was in your class I wanted to kill you because you'd put me on the spot with a simple question; you could tell I wasn't plugged in, and you called me on it. You weren't going to settle for [my]"stoner" image, for me to just take up space in the class.
I was really mad but [the confrontation] also challenged me. [You] made me take a hard look at myself and motivated me to prove there was more to me; you motivated me to give you my best. You also reminded me of my love for literature.
You were the first teacher to confront me, to make me care, and over time you gave me a lot of self confidence with my writing. You are so different from other teachers. You aren't there to just do your time in the classroom; you really care about your job - about us learning. That sincerity really connects with students. It really made a difference in me. After
completing your class, I looked at teachers
differently. I began participating, got more out of classes, and was able to connect with other teachers.
I want you to know that you got through to me; it will have a positive influence on me forever.
Thank you!
Nick"

Un-American
"vouchers for private and religious schools could not be more un-American. Using public dollars to fund private education that excludes the people who pay the taxes is just so wrong"

Nonsense. Public monies have subsidized private college students since the GI bill. Are you suggesting the GI bill was "unAmerican"?
Vermont has had vouchers for primary schools for ages.

For a teacher, stojef2005, you seem poorly informed. As to your point about tenure, it is equal nonsense. Tenure is about protecting educators (virtually always collegiate educators) from being fired for voicing "inconvenient" truths encountered in their scholarship. It was aimed at protecting intellectual integrity, not at protecting public school teachers from the "wrath" of parents. No, as you should know, you don't need "tenure" to teach in the primary grades; all you need is to work for a school that shares your values. In a fully privatized market, parents who questioned teachers upholding school values would be asked to leave, not the teacher.

The whole idea is for people to move as freely and appropriately as possible. If you like a curriculum and the values of a school, you'll work with them over issues. If not, you'll leave. Its like going to store. You have a choice as to whether to engage management to change or go elsewhere. If you are "right" and the store doesn't change, it will go out of business. Win. If you are wrong, the store will stay in business, you'll go on to something you imagine is "better". Win. If you work with the store, they change for the better, you get better results, everyone gets better. Win, Win, Win.

In the public school the bad teacher stays. You have no choice but to pay, entirely, for an alternative. The school gets worse. Lose. You get poorer. Lose. NOTHING EVER IMPROVES BECAUSE THERE IS NOT INCENTIVE. Lose, lose, lose.

Don't say it doesn't happen that way because I've lived through the experience with a teacher they wouldn't/couldn't remove from a wealthy, public school. Tenure, ya know.

For John Doe -- on Unions
John Doe writes: "While many on this message board decry unions, unions do perform the basic role of ensuring an effective "minimum wage" for its members. In order to wrest power from the unions, simply do what Fortune 500 employers do to attract college grads with the requisite skills: offer so much money that the idea of needing a wage gurantor to act as an intermediary between employee and employer is rendered moot."

Nope, that won't work.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong - - -

Airline pilots make upwards of $100,000/year. They are unionized.

Baseball players make upwards of $100,000/year and more. They are unionized.

Obviously increasing the wages is of no importance in terms of reducing union influence.

Marines
Culpepper,

That is awesome. Your story and the email and letter show that good teachers can, and do, make a difference.

Semper Fi!

To Culpepper
You are exactly the kind of teacher I hope for my children. I was told by one of my sons' middle school English teacher that she "was not sure" she could commit to one afternoon a week of tutoring in order to teach him how to write an essay (he should have been taught the basics in 7th grade). The attitude was one of I was not paying her to do this. I told her and the school counselor that I paid their salaries with my taxes and they were obligated to please me as the customer. This is in a highly touted school district in California.

I think the public school administrations forget where their money actually comes from. In California, due to Prop 13, the school funds no longer come from taxes directly from the community. All property taxes go into the state general fund and then are divided among the school districts according to population. All extra-curricular activities that used to be part of the school, e.g. music, field trips, sports, art, drama, etc., are underwritten by parents or community sponsors. These are just as important as the 3Rs for well rounded kids.

Through atypical public schools (magnets, charter schools and, the BEST one, a high school connected to the local community college), as well as strong parental involvement on my part, I have been able to get a private school education from the local public schools for all four of my kids. It takes a lot of effort from the parents, but it is doable. Kids need to be accountable as well for their work. Also, a very squeaky wheel does get results.

bsinglet

Schools need Competition now:
Great Article, but how do we get rid or the NEA and the powerful Teachers Unions entreached in supporting our failure of a school system. It seems that politicians feel that if they throw more money at the problem, then it will either go away, or they can say what we did and claim victory, when nothing was achieved. How do we change without waiting 50 years?

Phylo Se Fizer
Well it is a stale argument by now, but my God I can't believe your absolute ignorance and lack of understanding.

Is it okay to have winning schools and losing schools? Hell no. What about the losing schools? Well they close up shop and all of the students go to the winning schools. What is difficult to understand about that.

Oh my gosh you say, what if the winning schools can not accomodate all the students that were in the losing schools? Come on simpleton, someone opens another school modeled on the winning schools, takes those students, and everyone is better off.

Winners stay in business, thrive, and prosper; and losers close up shop and go home.

Who benefits? The students.

That is what competition does for the market. Get out of its way.

Fixing the Schools
Jeff in Texas:

I do not have a problem with colleges at all. If people are excluded because they don't have the grades, then the college is doing what is supposed to be doing. I don't know about the other 49 states, but in NY, everyone has the right to a college education and MUST be accepted to a SUNY school. That doesn't mean that a kid with a 72 average is going to attending one the universities or even one of the four-year colleges. He may go to a community college or a two-year tech school.

But we're not talking about colleges. Not everyone belongs in college. We're talking about public K-12.

Additionally, I've never bought that "It's my money that the government is taking and therefore they should give it back to me to spend however I want" argument. I have friends that take the train and subway to work. They would rather drive to work. Should the government stop taking money to pay for mass transit and give people vouchers for private cars?

School Mandated by Law
Handy, Why should anyone pay more for educating their children, the state mandates children must go to school. If it is the Law, why is it we can't decide what our children will learn, we have to pay the taxes by law, and then the schools indoctrinate children into the deviant homosexual agenda. I would recommend parents to take their children out of the schools, will they arrest them and take their children away and give them over to the devaints. It's clear that they have no regard for hetrosexual families and their children.

Private money for school
The 'problem' people always have with 'restricted' schools is always religious.

So let me get this straight, I pay my share in taxes then you come along and say I can't educate my children somewhere because we don't let atheists in?

No sir. My voucher represents MY TAX DOLLARS and I can use them where I want to. There is nothing about religious schools which is 'exclusive'. You simply need to BEHAVE in the way they expect, that is, act like a Christian(or other denomination).

Excluding someone based on their behavior is not wrong, its the very CORNERSTONE OF THE LAW.

response to pistol
I think my solution addresses the issue of accountability quite directly. Did you not read the whole post?

Phylo out.

response to vidyohs
My concern is that a voucher system might devolve into a sort of social darwinism whereby the strong survive and the weak get killed off. And by the weak, I mean the people who don't make as much money as everyone else, or don't have the talent or the social charm that others might have. What do we do about them? Let them waste away in the loser schools?

The best societies know how to find a good balance between competition and cooperation. The Republican ideal seems to be one of all competition and no cooperation. And, yes, the liberal ideal tends toward cooperation more than competition. I personally think both extremes are out of balance. The only question for me is where to draw the line.

Phylo out.

response to beowolf
beowolf wrote: "The alternative is what we have right now. That is that instead of the winners being allowed to win, everybody simply gets turned into losers. Everybody is certainly equal in your little utopian wolrd. Equally misserable, that is."

At what point did I argue for the status quo, you idiot? If you bothered to read the whole post, I argued for the autonomy of each principal under the authority of the local school board. How is that different from a Republican (as in federalist) point of view?

Phylo out?




A REALLY Good Joke
Phylo says: "They should have the authority to hire and fire all employees of the school."

"I know, the teachers unions would have a lot of trouble with this, but I think that problem can be worked out through negotiations."


AHHHH ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
he he he he he oooooooohahahahahahhahhehehehehe!

WHEW! That was a GOOD ONE, Phylo!

Kali
Kali says: "...in my home state, the best achievements come from 1) Home school 2) Public education 3) Private schools "

You must live in a very atypical area. Every stat I have ever seen,(as a homeschooler I do follow these things) has the public schools coming in last, not private. So I don't think your point generalizes well.

from a homeschool dad, teacher's husband
Lots of loonies in here tonight. Let the principal decide everything? It's all bad parents? It's all bad teachers? Private schools do worse than public? Cash to the parents? Lots of loonies.

One point. Public school teachers are not underpaid, not in any state in the country, and I can prove it with just 6 words. Here they are: THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF TEACHERS!!

ECON 101. 'Nuff said.

P.S. A big retired military ooh-rah to Culpepper.

z

UncaAlby: try writing...
...ridicu-lous without the hyphen. cu-lo is the blocked word, evidently the word a$$ in Italian.

Sooooooo, evidently the Townhall censors are hot on the trail of foreign swear words.

However, I can write the Russian equivalent of "hard cheese", i.e. toughsky shitsky, with no problema.

Go figure.

SingLOUD,
We have a shortage of teachers in my county and in the three neighboring counties (in Florida). Don't get me wrong, there's a warm body in the room (long term subs). Given the desperate want-adds from other counties, I imagine it's the same in most of the state. I can't speak to other states, though. I can also say that apparently teachers in the North East get paid quite a bit more than teacher just about everwhere else. Oh, well.

What is your school's per pupil cost?
Can anyone top this?!

In my "regional" high school, the cost per pupil is approximately $25,000 per year. Yes, folks, $25,000, and far more if a student attends a highly selective "academy."

Senior citizens; voters strapped for cash; families who do not use the government school system (and please consider using the expression "government" school vs. public school); and sensible folks in general, try their best to defeat inflated budgets that include astronomical, unnecessary administrative salaries. But the "army" of government school parents is well trained to march out the vote for the school budget, and the "army" usually wins because of their numbers.

Is there a pro-bono attorney out there to help us sue for taxation without representation, or minority discrimination, or just a plain and simple class action suit about a consumer rip-off? Consider this.

My $25,000 per pupil high school is touted as a top ten school in one of the socio-economic groupings in our state. Interestingly, the average SAT scores of this shamefully expensive high school was several hundred points lower than the SAT scores of some home educated students here.

Addendum: In addition to asking you to consider using the term "government" schools vs. "public" schools, please also consider the differences between the terms "schooling" and "educating." Most students in government schools are being "schooled" while those encouraged to develop wisdom are being "educated."
Words matter...

WEIRD WEIRD WEIRD filter!!
Is it ok if my repu-tation is damned to hell?

I can say "damned" and "hell", but I need a hyphen for "repu-tation".

WEIRD WEIRD WEIRD WEIRD

Lee -- topping
Ummmm -- I don't know if it counts as "topping" you, but as I understand it, Washington D.C. spends about $13,000 per student, and they get some of the worst test scores in the country.

Or maybe the average in the US is $13,000, and D.C. spends considerably more. I don't quite remember which.

The first thing to go as you get older is your memory, and I forget the other thing.

So I guess maybe this tops you in terms of "Dollars per SAT Point" or something?

Phylo, you sly dog
Phylo writes: "I've heard people say that vouchers would be good for blacks. I think that's non-sense. A big part of the problem in the black community is the lack of two parent households, and a lack of parental involvement in the children's education.

Are you moving over to the light? Are you acknowledging the importance of two parents? Are you suggesting that marriage is the building block of our society? Does this mean that marriage is the foundation upon which our future (and past) rests ?

My Money
"I have friends that take the train and subway to work. They would rather drive to work. Should the government stop taking money to pay for mass transit and give people vouchers for private cars?"

I agree that taxes should be paid and used for worthwhile endeavors. However, you must remember that the taxes you pay are YOUR money that the government collects.

If the mass transit system was not doing what it was designed to do, then I would say, yes, the government should stop using taxes to fund it. However, in every case I am aware of, the system is working. That is not the case with government schools. Many, probably most, do a good job. However, there are many that do not do a good job educating our children. Therefore, people should be able to choose which school their children attend.

No vouchers from taxation!
I haven't had time to read all of the remarks, so I apologize if what I have stated has been done so earlier.

I send my children to a Catholic school. Catholic schools were started because the public schools embraced a value system that was disagreeable to most Catholics. Let’s be honest; public schools traditionally favored Protestantism. In establishing these schools, which was done by the way without direct tax breaks (though there is some relief if the local parishes are intelligent and allow contributions to forgo tuition costs), two wonderful aspects resulted. First, the parents had to be involved because their involvement could save money and insure teacher accountability. Second, by not taking government money, freedom to educate as the local system or the diocese wished would remain intact. I am afraid that vouchers would compromise this freedom.

I believe that Jeb Bush's program in Florida is much more workable. Business can invest in successful schools hopefully, or any school for that matter, and receive tax breaks for doing so. Those lower taxes can be passed on as higher wages, reinvestment, or lower prices. Meanwhile, the freedom of the school to educate as it (the school community) sees fit remains.

I am also a former public school teacher. Now I teach in a community college and am a current member of the NEA, an organization I find reprehensible (since I am in a right to work state, I only contribute to my state union and refuse to contribute to the national union). The union helps protect my salary among the many services it offers, yet I am frustrated that certain of my collogues are allowed to underachieve or continue after a program is no longer effective. I can lament about the lack of merit in the union and the shortsighted cost cutting ax that the administration wields, both hurting the product meant to serve the student. The fact of the matter is this concerning teachers: any good teacher simply loves the profession. Give me a classroom permeated with respect and accomplishment, and I'll take a pay cut.
Unfortunately, the public school teacher may not ever attain that kind of a classroom. The only alternative is to scream for higher pay. Competition may help some schools improve working conditions, but, as some have pointed out, it may also doom others to offer an inferior product for one simple reason: Competing for student numbers also means competing for quality students. We have to take into consideration urban neighborhoods, rural poverty, parental value systems and any myriad of variables when considering making schools competitive. This is not an easy task.

So do I have any answers? Just one: Find a way to distribute tax money to non public schools without invoking governmental controls. Jeb Bush has the right idea.

No vouchers from taxation!
I haven't had time to read all of the remarks, so I apologize if what I have stated has been done so earlier.

I send my children to a Catholic school. Catholic schools were started because the public schools embraced a value system that was disagreeable to most Catholics. Let’s be honest; public schools traditionally favored Protestantism. In establishing these schools, which was done by the way without direct tax breaks (though there is some relief if the local parishes are intelligent and allow contributions to forgo tuition costs), two wonderful aspects resulted. First, the parents had to be involved because their involvement could save money and insure teacher accountability. Second, by not taking government money, freedom to educate as the local system or the diocese wished would remain intact. I am afraid that vouchers would compromise this freedom.

I believe that Jeb Bush's program in Florida is much more workable. Business can invest in successful schools hopefully, or any school for that matter, and receive tax breaks for doing so. Those lower taxes can be passed on as higher wages, reinvestment, or lower prices. Meanwhile, the freedom of the school to educate as it (the school community) sees fit remains.

I am also a former public school teacher. Now I teach in a community college and am a current member of the NEA, an organization I find reprehensible (since I am in a right to work state, I only contribute to my state union and refuse to contribute to the national union). The union helps protect my salary among the many services it offers, yet I am frustrated that certain of my collegues are allowed to underachieve or continue after a program is no longer effective. I can lament about the lack of merit in the union and the shortsighted cost cutting ax that the administration wields, both hurting the product meant to serve the student. The fact of the matter is this concerning teachers: any good teacher simply loves the profession. Give me a classroom permeated with respect and accomplishment, and I'll take a pay cut.
Unfortunately, the public school teacher may not ever attain that kind of a classroom. The only alternative is to scream for higher pay. Competition may help some schools improve working conditions, but, as some have pointed out, it may also doom others to offer an inferior product for one simple reason: Competing for student numbers also means competing for quality students. We have to take into consideration urban neighborhoods, rural poverty, parental value systems and any myriad of variables when considering making schools competitive. This is not an easy task.

So do I have any answers? Just one: Find a way to distribute tax money to non public schools without invoking governmental controls. Jeb Bush has the right idea.

Let's focus on the real issue
I am still waiting for a response to my earlier question, "Why does anyone think that it is the proper role of GOVERNMENT to educate our children?"

Perhaps there are people who do see the education of our children as a proper government function. If so, I would like to hear from them.

If not, then we need not spend time discussing vouchers, shoring up failing schools, and all other such issues.

We should focus on answering the only real question which is, "What is the best way to privatize education given where we are now?".

It's not an easy one to answer, but the only one that really matters if we agree that educating our children is not the proper role of government (especially the Federal government).

Illiteracy, Incarceration, and Exiting
Most of those incarcerated are functionally illiterate. Therefore, we pay not only for the wasteful spending of massive miseducation K-12, but for the results of that miseducation many years post K-12. Tragic! This is decidedly a brain twister, budget breaker, stomach turner, and heart wrencher!!

I don't know if it takes a 2-parent household, or even an involved 1-parent household to teach a young child to read a simple book. Certainly it helps to read to children at home -- and give them books worth reading and hearing. Yet, is *that* necessary?

But, at the rate taxpayers pay NEA tenured teachers and bloated educrats, teachers should at *very* least be able to teach a child to read by 1st grade unless the child has a certifiable mental impairment. I reference 1st grade because, as many children attend pre-school for five years prior, what have they been doing all this time?!

As a home educator, I do not support vouchers. Further, constitutionally, the government does *not* have a responsibility to pay for education. But what politician has the guts to run for office on that platform?! I don't even think that Tom Tancredo, brave as he is about illegal aliens, would tack on that issue too, much as I think his supporters would nod and consider the possibilities.

In the meantime, if you don't like the government school system, take the nearest exit! Get off the highway to nowhere! For the future of your family and your country, do whatever you can to make it happen. My family's poor as church mice, but the financial sacrifice to home educate gave our children great educations, promising futures, and lives blessed with strong faith and wonderful values.

And, may I humbly add, Praise God!


Voucher Badnesses
The only bad thing about vouchers which has been mentioned so far is unavoidable fact of getting government involved with over-regulating the schools that receive the voucher money.

I have to agree 1000%. The real answer is full and complete privitization. I think, however, there may be mitigating issues here that make vouchers the next best thing.

In particular, government at various levels already has its tentacles tightly intertwined in the public school system as it is anyway. Switching to a voucher system would not make that any worse.

Any school that doesn't like the red-tape and the onerous regulations could simply refuse the voucher money. E.g., any Christian school that objects to teaching evolution. Again, that's no worse than the current situation.

Public schools that are performing to par would hardly see any difference. Parents will send their kids there, they'll get the money from the voucher instead of directly from the government, and the kids will get education. Once more, no different than now.

But where we would see improvement would be in under-performing schools that start seeing their enrollment drop. They would either improve or close down. And if the school is failing to teach, why *shouldn't* it close down? Why should thousands of dollars in tax money be paid for baby-sitting services?

Because the critical component in any decent voucher system is the ability for the students to take that money to virtually any school they want. Without that critical component, we might as well stick with the status-quo.

The accusations that private schools are able to "cherry pick" their students are pure bunk. Particularly among religious schools that see helping the dregs of society as part of their mission. There are in fact numerous cases where failing students are taken out of public schools and put into private ones, and a complete turn-around occurs. Instead of failing, unruly, disruptive brats, the private schools are able to turn them into model students.

Privitization is a great idea, but is politically impossible. Vouchers aren't as good, but might be something we can actually accomplish.

Phylo Se Fizer - response
Round-and-around the mulberry bush, here we go again.
Phylo, what are you talking about? You make no sense at all.

Phylo Se Fizer writes: Wednesday, August, 30, 2006 10:04 PM
response to vidyohs
"My concern is that a voucher system might devolve into a sort of social darwinism whereby the strong survive and the weak get killed off."
Phylo, no one is talking about a voucher system where only charismatic or strong can get vouchers. How could you come to that conclusion?

And by the weak, I mean the people who don't make as much money as everyone else, or don't have the talent or the social charm that others might have.
Phylo, see above comment.

What do we do about them? Let them waste away in the loser schools?
Phylo, it is the nature of business that competition typically identifies those who can perform and those who can not. Again, when a school is identified as a loser school, you close it or fire the entire staff and start over with people who want to win as teachers and administrators. In a competitive system loser schools identify themselves and are weeded out. What is difficult about that to understand, and why would you want to fight or resist a system that would benefit everyone as opposed to the one now where we keep them going just so no one gets their feelings hurt or has their "self esteem" suffer?

The best societies know how to find a good balance between competition and cooperation.
Phylo, what the hell are you talking about here?
Where did this cooperation come in to the picture? And, how does it fit into the discussion? A school is a business, its product is education. If businesses aren't exposed to competition then there is zero - hear me loud and clear, Phylo, there is ZERO incentive to perform. You see the evidence in businesses all day every day of your life but you just can't shake enough liberal mush out of your head in order to fit in some common sense.

The Republican ideal seems to be one of all competition and no cooperation.
Phylo, this is so hokey liberal propaganda and meaningless as a statement or an accusation. I
speculate that you have never ever created, organized, and administered a business, much less a profitable one. In business competition is the standard one must meet so are you fuzzy on this cooperation thing or what? I run a business so I am to cooperate with my competition? Is that what you think happens as a general rule in the business world?
Or are you as confused as the not for profit school creator in New York is about what constitutes investment as opposed to donation? I listened to this lady complain on a Pacifica radio program that "she was struggling for money and lamented the fact that none of the fat cats around her would "invest" in her non-profit school". Well, Phylo, people do not invest in non-profit organizations. They may donate to one but an investment means that one expects a return. If I invest money, I expect my return to be in money......not touchy feely expressions of "cooperation."
Phylo, what is it about the word business, the concept of business, and the practice of business that you don't understand?

And, yes, the liberal ideal tends toward cooperation more than competition. I personally think both extremes are out of balance. The only question for me is where to draw the line.
Phylo did you learn all this fuzzy headed liberal crap at one of those "losing" schools that hire "losing" professors?

Phylo out.
vidyohs out

lee -- topping
I live in Illinois. The Venice Unit School District (in Venice, Illinois) spent so much money that the state took over financial control of the district. Under the state's control, spending doubled! In FY2005 the district had operational spending of $28,285 per student (total spending was $37,476 per student), yet only 32.6% of the students were able to read at grade level on the Illinois Scholastic Aptitude Test.

Isn't $28,285 per student enough? Give these students vouchers and school choice.




Lee -- Topping 2
How about this one -- maybe this one will show the problem with government schools in Illinois.

In FY2004 the Rondout Elementary District in Lake Forest, IL spent $23,799 per student (highest operational expense in Illinois that year) while the Central Elementary District in Washington, IL spent $4,438 per student (lowest operational expense in Illinois that year). Central District 51 had a higher percentage of students meeting the reading standards than Rondout on the Illinois Scholastic Aptitude Test. In FY2005, Central District 51 had a higher percentage of students meeting both the reading and math standards than Rondout.

Both districts have about the same number of special education, low-income and limited-English students.

If you run a business and produce an inferior product at 5 times the cost of your competitor, how long will you stay in business? But that's right, government schools don't have to compete, they are a monopoly with students in town mandated to attend.

Per Pupil Cost - Follow Up
After reading UncaAlby's and Vern's responses to my post of August 31 that asked if anyone could top my high school's $25,000 per pupil cost, I had a second thought. I'd like to pose the same question on other posting boards to determine if I can accumulate more verifiable reports to compile for further action. It's important to take "chat" like this beyond ourselves and reach a broader and, perhaps, a more influential audience. Yes, I know we've tried. But, I'm not giving up yet!

Does anyone have ideas for decent posting boards to help me pursue that?


lee -- verification
All of the statistics that I have used are easily verifiable from the Illinois State Board of Education.

The Illinois Board of Education has a wonderful site filled with financial information at

http://webprod1.isbe.net/ilearn/ASP/index.asp

and school and district report cards are available on the Illinois State Board of Education's website

http://isbe.net/

One piece of information you will need to make valid comparisons -- The district report cards show how students performed on the Illinois Scholastic Achievement Test in May of the indicated year, but the spending statistics on the Report Card are from the previous school year.

To get the 2004 academic performance look on the 2004 Report Card.

To get the 2004 spending statistics use the ILEARN website of financial information (listed above).

Good luck with your research, I'm sorry that I don't know of any posting boards to recommend -- I don't post very often.


Something certainly needs to be done.
When I was a sophomore in high school, I was an honors-level student in advanced chemistry. The teacher was awful. She played favorites, refused to stop mid-lecture to answer any questions no matter how confused we students might have been, and always talked with her back turned to us as she wrote on the board, making her almost impossible to hear and understand. The situation got so bad, my mother and two other parents arranged a meeting with the principal. What was the outcome? "Sorry, we can't do anything about it. She has tenure."

My friends and I formed a study group that met weekly, and using our school textbooks and a used college-level chemistry book donated to us by an older brother, we learned it on our own.

Unions might have some good points, but when students have to resort to teaching themselves because an incompetent woman's job is more important than their education, it's clear there is something seriously wrong.

Public Education's failure
After having experienced all three forms of education, public, private and homeschooling, our family will be making it a priority to provide our grandchildren with the opportunity to attend private school or be homeschooled.
We were the ultimate in involved parents; my husband served as the school board president for four years and I served on various school committees, was a room mom, etc. Even so, achieving even a decent education compatible with future college admittance in this middle-income, predominantly white community was an uphill battle all the way.
Of course there were a few teachers who excelled and did their best but the vast majority are below par and don't care. Amazingly, for the underachieving teacher there are no incentives to improve and they have the audacity to suggest they are all underpaid. Try averaging out what they make per hour, even with paper grading, and try to make that argument to anyone in private industry.
Vouchers may not solve all the problems but allowing the money to follow the child seems to be working for our counterparts in Europe.

The reason they hate vouchers
The reason the teacher unions and the educational
establishment hate vouchers is that such a set up would increase inequality. Parents and students that value education will choose one type of school (a school with high and rigorous academic standards). Parents that use the educational system as a free day care service will choose a school that panders to students with low academic standards. In a market economy, those students choosing the rigorous school will do better economically in the long run. Thus vouchers will perpetuate a unequal, stratified economic order. Socialists hate this, and since the majority of the teacher union leadership are socialist, of course they fight vouchers.

What the socialists dont realize is that this economic stratification would be the result of choice. Parents who dont care about education choose this. By not allowing parents that value education the choice, the socialists hurt the children of these parents by forcing them to go to schools with poor students who hold down academic standards and deflate the value of a high school diploma.

Public Education's failure
I have to admit that the Public Education in the United States of America is one of the worst in the world, including some colleges, but let us stick with K-12.
I attended the NYC public school system from K-10th grade. Although I do not that kindergarten and the first grades count. In second grade as a child I learned your simple basic Math, Reading and Writing.
Third grade was a disaster. Students yelling screaming and the teacher just stood back and did nothing.
Fourth grade we had a teacher that did not take any back talk form any student or parent, hey, guess what I was taught what I did not learn in the third grade and was taught what I was suppose to learn in the fourth grade.
Fifth grade just like the fourth grade I had a teacher that did not take any back talk from any student or parent, of course as you can imagine I learned something that school year.
Sixth grade was a disaster. I had a teacher that did not like any male student needless to say that was a disaster, again.
Junior High, what a disaster that was. Dyker Heights Junior High School, the student body was half White and half Black/Hispanic. For the 2 years that I was in that school there were 5 Racial Riots, yes 5 and the faculty did nothing. There was paint falling from the walls and ceilings. My brother and I received a beating every other day at school because my brother and I did not want to conform to particular cliques in the school. All the school faculty did was to say, "I am sorry all we can do is to separate my brother and I from the students that were beating us" on an every other day basis. This is what the principle and vice-principle told my parents with my brother and me sitting there. So of course my parents prosecuted the thugs that were bullying my brother and I, we could not prosecute the school faculty because the union stepped in and trumped the law. Imagine that, the school union looking out for the people that did not take care of the students when it is supposed to be the safety of the students that is there first priority the moment that I step on school property.
So my brother and I went to Grady High School in Brooklyn. What a dump. Although the school was clean the majority of the students did not have the intention of learning. The stands at the baseball diamond was the spot all the drug addicts went to do what they went to school for, party with the other students. All of this being done right next to the NYPD's horse stable. I told my parents about what Grady High School was all about. Of course they did not like it so I was transferred to Fort Hamilton High School. Well there was an enormous amount of drugs and a high drop out rate. I did not go to school and went to the library instead to learn. Guess what I passed the entire end of the year tests at Fort Hamilton High School with marks in the 90's. Being that I did not attend the school for almost a year they had to leave me in the 10th grade, oh well my decision.
So the family went to live on Long Island. I remember the realtors telling my parents what great schools, number one schools in the state. There were just as much drugs in the High School as there were on the streets of Brooklyn. If you were not a “Jock” or a person of the higher financial status in East Islip High School you were given the bottom of the barrel classes. It was like a cultural right that was given to all students. Needless to say it cost the taxpayers of the Islips was nearly $15,000 a year per student and that was back in 1983.
So what are the public schools like today? Well, heaven forbid the taxpayers do not want a 10% increase in their property taxes. The school will drop programs faster than a speeding bullet and claim the budget can not afford it. Yet while the teachers are making $100,000 a year and retiring with accrued sick time and vacation time, and an $80,000 pension for the rest of their lives. Yet while the superintendents of a school district are making $350,000 a year they can not afford to keep a program for the children. Also while looking you straight in the eye they will tell you “Do it for the children”. That is the excuse to raise the property taxes for the school budget. On Long Island where I live school district after school district are being audited with millions and millions of tax dollars misused and stolen. Just one school district in Roslyn was audited and found to been missing over $11,000,000. Still to this day justice has not been served to these scums of the earth. You can not even have an inferior or criminal public school person fired after they make tenure. By the union laws you have to go through 14 steps in order to fire them. Public schools are accepting students that are illegally in this country. Gee if I remember correctly when you register your legal child in the public schools do you not have to produce a document that has your child’s immunization shots, social security number, proof of residency and proof of guardian. Yet we accept students with no proof of what or who they are not to mention heaven forbid you ask them their legal status the ACLU would sue the school district so fast it would make your head spin. Not to mention now we have bi-lingual classes to be politically correct in today’s public school system.
God Bless the Public Schools of the United States of America.
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