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Friday, July 18, 2008
John Hawkins :: Townhall.com Columnist
Five Pieces of Liberal "Wisdom" That Need to Be Put Out to Pasture
by John Hawkins
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"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." -- Fake Thomas Jefferson

Actually, Thomas Jefferson never said or believed that, which makes perfect sense given that he was a very wise man and that phrase is nonsense.

Dissent can indeed be patriotism, but it can just as easily be foolishness, disloyalty, or even treason. Moreover, it's hard to miss the fact that most people who use the phrase "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism," seem to have an active dislike of their country.

A true American patriot may disagree with his government, criticize his nation's policies, or refuse to go along with the majority of his fellow citizens, but he will also never turn his back on his own country or hold it in contempt.

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -- Misquoted Ben Franklin

Ben Franklin, being a brilliant man, didn't ever actually say the above quote. What he really said was, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

If you're not a deep thinker, those may seem to be small changes, but those qualifiers make all the difference. People who truly bought into the original fake Franklin quote wouldn't even put locks on their doors or child resistant caps on dangerous pills because even those tiny sacrifices of liberty for the sake of security would mean that they'd deserve neither.

"Jesus was a liberal." -- Liberal bumper sticker

Jesus, as Mike Huckabee famously said, "was too smart to ever run for public office," and he was not, in any way, shape, or form, a liberal -- or for that matter, a conservative.

If you're a liberal and happen to believe otherwise, I'm sure you'd be in for a rude awakening if you ever had an actual discussion with Jesus about, say gay marriage, premarital sex, abortion, Islam, or prayer in schools. In fact, if Jesus were to come back tomorrow, chances are they'd be calling him JesusHitler on Daily Kos by the end of the week. Not that we conservatives would escape chastisement either, but at least we're not so arrogant as to believe that our Lord and Savior would be filling in while Rush Limbaugh is on vacation.

"Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" -- Anonymous

The simple answer to that question is that's not why we execute criminals. "(W)e kill people who kill people," to discourage other people from following in their footsteps and to mete out justice for the victims and their families.

To be blunt about it, some people just deserve to die and if we can give them what they deserve in such a way that it saves other lives, that's a good thing.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Violence may not solve everything (That quote still works), but conversely, that doesn't mean it solves nothing. In fact, it's fair to say that violence has been the greatest problem solver in the history of mankind, which is why we still have fights and wars despite all the problems those activities have caused throughout human history.

If anything, we've gotten to a point where we're so far beyond avoiding taking an "eye for an eye" that we've actually started creating longer, more miserable conflicts as a result.

Look at Israel, for example, where you have ragtag gangs of Palestinian terrorists that have been fighting for decades with a military power capable of utterly crushing them in a few weeks time. Look at our own war on terror, where we're wringing our hands about the "suffering" the terrorists may experience during the two minutes they're being waterboarded. Meanwhile, they're gleefully torturing our soldiers to death with power tools.

The point is not that we should always take an "eye for an eye." It's that violence does often work, there is a time to use it, and when we do need to use it, trading a tap on the wrist for a plucked eye isn't necessarily the best strategy.

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Eye for an eye
Mr. Hawkins comes close to a proper interpertation of Hammurabi. The famous code was an attempt to limit the savagery practiced by the ancestors of preent day Arabs. It was common practice at that time for an agrieved person to unleash his most barbarian tendencies upon the one he felt deserved punishment. A percived insult to honor could result in maiming or death. (Sound faamiliar?) The code did not demand an eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth. It prescribed a maximum punishment for these named losses in an attempt to civilize those desert dwellers.

Phony Quotes
It should surprise no one that quotes of the famous and 'wise' among us are skewed to fit one's personal agenda. Truth, after all, has little place in today's world.

It is also interesting how people may misquote Jefferson... then insist on plugging their ears when an actual quote they don't like comes up... and when that fails, they point out his slave-holder status and other mortal shortcomings.

Or how Christianity can be twisted to make the government's welfare state the "Christ-like" thing-to-do.

And lastly, the blinding of the world... Doing nothing seems to have blinded the world far more than the use of force. Only in a John Wayne movie can the bad guys draw and fire a round before the good guy wins the gunfight. If, in real life, we sit back and wait before we protect ourselves, there will be a lot of dead good guys, and a lot of smiling, gleeful bad guys.

Worst of all by far......
....Is the liberals (mis)use of Matthew 7:1, while ignoring the next verse, as well asa the rest of the bible.

Memo to libs: God will not be mocked.

Great column
One of my personal favorites aside from the first two mentioned in the column:

"Humans aren't the only species on earth, we just act like it."

That could not be less true. I love to eat all kinds of God's creatures, but would never consider eating a human...

The phony Jefferson quote
is from Dorothy Hewitt Hutchinson, a pacifist and communist who started her activities as an anti war protestor in WWII.

It is hard to understand why she was not collared in WWII.

Quotes are interesting.....
I like a lot of President Reagan's quotes. My favorite is. "It's not that our liberal friends are ignorant, it's just that so much of what they know isn't true."

And what they know about the mortal threat Islam poses is certainly not true. Reid/Pelosi and running dogs are willing to sacrifice our national security for short range political gain. Are they disloyal? Dang right they are. They are too intelligent to believe what they are doing makes America safer. So what they are doing is treason, and they should be required to suffer the consequences.

Here's a new take on an old one. Clinton had the opportunity to take out OBL and refused to do so. So how about this one? "Clinton diddled while (put in here anyplace you like) burned."

an eye for an eye
An "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was a requirement in the old testament. It was not given for vengeance, with the idea of getting even, but for justice. If you stole from your neighbor, not only did you have to pay it back but you had to pay more. If you killed someone intentionally you had to forfeit your own life. It was a crime deterrent. It was to discourage lawlessness and it worked. It only stops working when we stop applying centuries long proven techniques for sissy responses.
Phyl

Christianity
If there are any readers if this who are Christians, and live in or near Washington County Maryland, the cold weather shelter needs volunteer helpers this winter.

As Christians you know what Christ said to those who would not help those who were hungry or in jail or such.

It is possible to argue that only the deserving poor should be helped but then how many question were asked of the man the good samaration helped. The man who was helped might have been a robber who was beaten by his inteneded victum. He might have been a child molester who happened to get away with his life.

Yet, reportedly, no questions were asked before proving help. How do we know that he was deserving of help. Did the simple fact that he was suffering make him diserving?

So in South Africa
Once the blacks came to power they should not have done the sissy thing of setting up the Truth and Reclication Committee (or whatever it was called) but gone out and applice eye for eye plus penility to all whites who had legally beaten and jailed them.

I assume that it is also your position that any of the Guatamalio prisioners who are able to get their hands on one of their interigators should apply to the intergators any and all methods the interigators has applied to them.

And remember there was no torture involved.

Russell

( the other day I listened to a show about the life of Anderw Jackson who is reported to have said "It is a xxxx man who can only think of one way to spell a word" The show said the Jackson could occasionly think of several different ways to spell the same word on the same page.

Russell
You do realize that you are taking the bible out of context when you say that. Just thought you should know.

Russel...
So, according to your theory,
When they use power tools to
drill into the kneecaps of our guys,
we can do it to them?

When they hang and burn bodies,
behead bound captives, and post the videos
we can do it too?

What are you saying?
I think I missed your point.

Chord
The point is that liberals cry over the "torture" of terrorists in Gitmo, yet ignore the outright barbarity of the terrorists. The fact is we don't ude the same tactics on them that they regularly use on their prisoners. Its called selective outrage.

An eye for an eye
An eye for an eye is not about revenge, but rather the concept of proportionality. It is as much to protect the offender as punish him, as it bans punishments that are worse than the offense.

I think we need to think about this in terms of reforming sentences for drug offenses.

Treason = patriotism
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" has mutated into "Treason is the highest form of patriotism."

Me also thinks that 99.44% of dissent is defiance for defiance's sake, for you never hear any WORKABLE solutions from the defier.

Hawk, you forget who your talking about
Hawk, you're trying to talk facts with Democrats. They don't want to hear that! They only deal in emotions and feelings. "How does that make you feeeeeeel?" Don't bother them with unnecessary trivialities like "facts."

I keep hoping one day I'm going to wake up and it'll be 1947 again and the last 40 years will all have been some sort of horrible, terrible, national-voluntary-suicidal nightmare. If I had a time machine, I'd gather 40 years worth of newspaper clippings and government reports and travel back to the pre-McCarthy era and give the man his pre-props... Joe, you were no saint and you had your issues, but I wonder if you hadn't ridden a time machine to the future and back yourself, and were merely commenting on what you saw on your travels.

"...history will record with the greatest astonishment that those who had the most to lose did the least to prevent its happening."
-- Ronald Reagan, 1964

afsarge
Imagine liberals holding the US to a higher standard than terrorists. It is almost as if they think the US is better than terrorists. It is interesting to see that there are people in this country who disagree.

Don't forget this one...
'War is not the answer'.

Doesn't it kind of depend upon the question?

Jesus was so a conservative!
I can't believe Hawkins reall means it when he says, just after he lives a brief list of Jesus's policy positions, that Jesus was not a conservative. And he doesn't give us any idea why he thinks Jesus might chastise conservatives. Jesus is best understood as a conservative, and Christianity is the religious branch of conservatism (or you can turn this around and say that conservatism is the political branch of Christianity).

Real Christians possess the absolute moral truth, and should believe, if they wish to be consistent, that this knowledge entitles them to control government to promote and maintain the truth of Christianity. Theocracy is the only intellectually consistent conservative theory of government.

Dissent is fine...
...treason is not.

Dissent is disagreeing with the President's stand on Social Security. Or saying that the Supreme Court was wrong in Roe v Wade. Or calling a politician with whom you don't agree an idiot.

Treason is calling the 9-11 terrorists "brave" and calling the victims "little Eichmanns" (Ward Churchill), or complaining that the terrorists merely attacked the wrong cities on 9-11 ("blue" cities rather than "red" ones), but that the attacks were understandable (Michael Moore on 9-12), or in producing a movie using distortions, exagerations, and outright lies to discredit the current administration in a time of war (Moore, again), or doing a soft-ball interview of Saddam Hussein in the middle of a war against his government (Peter Arnett), or making demonstrably false claims that the US Military used Sarin gas on deserters during Vietnam (Arnett, again), all of which, being public statements by people seen as credible by a large portion of the public, have the effect of giving the enemy aid and comfort through the demoralization of our population.

Gestell
I have to disagree with you. Jesus was not into politics, and the whole conservative/liberal idealogies weren't around. He lived in Roman occupied Palestine.

Jesus didn't come to earth for any political reasons. The Kingdom of God that he established is not of this earth.

Just because he shares some of the moral values that conservatives do, doesn't make him a "conservative".

Your suggestion of Christians trying to establish a theocracy in this country and take control is a dangerous one.

I am a devout Christian but I believe in the founding father's notion of pluralism. I would fight with all of my might against any attempt to force Christianity on everyone else.

Lon
"Imagine liberals holding the US to a higher standard than terrorists. It is almost as if they think the US is better than terrorists. It is interesting to see that there are people in this country who disagree. "

Hahahaha!!! You are saying that people that hide behind women and children, hide inside hospitals, hijack planes to kill innocent civilians, are equal to us? I can see the mindset of liberals now.

'They are people! they did no harm except kill us! why are they looked down upon? There is nothing wrong with attacking America!'

My gosh...pull your head out.

Clay
conservative is an ideology. If he had the same beliefs, that makes him a conservative, even if it wasn't around back then.

Im not backing either side, but your argument doesn't really make sense. I also do not back Theocracy.

CKHustler
Conservative is a POLITICAL ideaology. There is no evidence that Jesus was politically minded. So I don't see why you think I am not making any sense.

Why?
Why are people here trying to politicize Christ?

To what purpose does it serve?

Remember we don't have a theocracy in this country because God gave us free will and freedom.

That means you get to choose what is the best path in your view to reach God. This is how civilization moves forward. This is how we learn from our success' as well as our mistakes.

As to the death penalty...

don't forget that it is also about atonement as well. You must atone for your actions on this earth in order to be received in heaven.

Clay
There are two sides to the conservative ideology. There are two sides to liberal ideology. One side on each is government, but the other is social, which include morals and the such.

When people talk about what Jesus was, they refer to the social side of the ideology.

Clay
Do not confuse this with me doing so. I prefer not to bring him into the conversation myself.

Lon
Guess what, we already have a higher standard. That's we don't cut off their heads, electrocute them, put them through shredders, etc. But, also understand this, we are at war with them and war is a dirty business. Either be prepared to fight all the way or be prepared to lose. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty in war. Everything isn't always cut and dry like in the movies. Real life is a lot messier and sometimes requires those willing to make the hard choices. At what point do you say its too messy and not worth the fight?

Another Quotation


After reading those quotes from all those famous people, it may come as a surprise that the greatest quotation I have ever read is:

The Eye can see
and
The Heart can Love
What the Word cannot describe.

It is just a coincidence that I not only love that quote, I wrote it, while trying to write a story about my Most Beloved Sweetie, after knowing her for exactly 55 years and 13 days.

---------

As I sat near her Hospital bed on day, Sweetie said, “This must be awful boring for you.” I responded, “It ain't boring, you're my Sweetie.”


It is not clear
from the left where the line is drawn between dissent as patriotic and when it is disloyal and wrong. For instance, would a patriotic Obama, comdemn Bill Ayres's dissent expressed in bombing buildings or wartime communist sympathisers such as Alger Hess who gave away state secrets?

We revel in our freedom of speech but when is it not patriotic if it undermines the will of a nation? If we start a war should we not try to win it? Is it unpatriotic to try to lose?

A conservative
What does a true conservative do? He tests everything and holds on to what is good. He does not reject, out of hand, everything that is new, nor does he hold on, blindly, to all that is old.

He tests everything, both old and new and rejects that which is not good, using the standard that God has given us. The people who reject God's authority make their own standard--and impose it on everyone they can.

Don't know who said it but it has been
demonstrated to be true after decades of the welfare state of America.

"Necessity is the mother of invention." I believe it was Ben Franklin.

Also another good one for the unabashed liberal......

"Freedom without restraint is anarchy"

Both demonstrate exactly what is wrong with liberalism....

also, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"...try telling a well meaning liberal that what they propose to assuage their feelings about poverty, etc...does more to continue to cause it that it does to solve the problems....Good intentions do not necessarily bring right actions any more than quick fixes to problems that may have taken years to foment into consequence.

More liberal quotes
Here’s some more liberal quotes that have outlived their usefulness:

- We can’t drill out way out of this.
- Bush lied
- The failures of capitalism
- It depends of what the definition of “is” is

CKHustler
No, I said that we are better than terrorists. I am not sure why you took me to be saying the opposite. I was saying that people who think that the fact that terrorists do X is a defense of our doing Y make the mistake of thinking we are equal.

I am sorry if this confused you, and hope this clears it up for you. Americans are better than terrorists and should not act like terrorists. Nor should they feel good about behaviors because at least they are better than terrorist behavior. There is plenty of disgraceful behavior that is still better than the terrorist behavior.

afsarge
We do appear to have tortured a few dozen prisoners to death. But in general our behavior is better than the terrorists. That does not mean we should not avoid trying to blur the lines.

New Liberal Quotes
To err is someone else's fault; to forgive, against liberal policy.

A penny saved, is a penny taxed.

Give a man a fish, and he'll become entitled to more. Teach a man to fish, and we'll take it from him for the common good. What right does he have to that fish, anyway? He probably got it from the back of the other man.

Charity begins in someone else's wallet.

Ask not what you can do for your country; ask what your country can do for you.

Francis
You sure have a twisted view of Jesus. What do you mean by the term "homo-social bonding"? If you are trying to insuate that Jesus was a homosexual or that he encouraged homosexual bonding then you are flat out wrong.

As for whether or not Jesus was for gay marriage, the answer would of course be a resounding no. Both the Old and the New Testament refer to it as an abomination. So, if God was against homosexuality His son is against it to.

Of course, the quick answer to such a ludicrous question is to point out that it is an inane question since gay marriage didn't exist in Jesus' time.

Mine is still the best quote, ever
Jul 18, 2008 - 1:30 PM EST

The Eye can see
and
The Heart can Love
What the Word cannot describe.

Think about it a little. Whether you are thinking about your Sweetie, your Kids, or your vacation, what fits and describes it better?

It's a Distraction
Mischief and Left-ism. Some will weigh in with invective and hyperbole to keep the topic from going forward to an obvious conclusion. Somewhat of a forgone conclusion, too. Liberalism is a flawed sensibility, much more so than Conservatism.

Perhaps it is just an opinion I share with others. But using one of Liberalism's axioms of moral relativity, aren't I allowed to conclude that my conservative opinion is as valid as anything the distracting, fussing libs might come up with?

reply to Clay
I'm glad that you have such faith in your own historical knowledge.The links between Christianity and politics date back to the Church Fathers. Try getting acquainted with St. Augustine, for instance. If you're a Protestant, learn a little bit about Calvin, who not only supported theocracy but contributed to running a theocracy in Geneva. Examples can be multiplied, but I'll cut to the chase. Unless you are absolutely sure that you and you alone have the correct interpretation of Christianity, you are on very shaky ground when you deny the political dimension of Christianity. The imposition by force of Christianity on people is nothing new; learn about the Christian "reconquest" of Spain; Christians forced both Muslims and Jews to convert to Christianity or die.

Christianity requires obedience to God; it should be the conservative Christian's hope that this obedience will be facilitated by the power of government.

And yet another oldie

Well, to get off the subject of things we love, and on to one we hate, how about this one.

The Liberal sees only what he believes.

The Conservative believes only what he sees.

Dave in Denver
In answer to your excellent question, you are allowed to say it and even to believe it, but only so long as you don't insist that it is true. The former will get you patronizing smirks. The latter will get you rabid denunciations, vitriol, and the heavy hand of the government brought down upon you in order to enforce tolerance in society.

Not so fast, Gestell
"Conservative" refers to the conservation of the Founding Fathers' political philosophy. Their political philosophy was derived from the individualist philosophies of the Enlightenment, not from the collectivism of St. Augustine et al.

Hey Eric, from The Republic of Texas
Well said! I only wish you could go back to 1927 and pre-rid the world of those famous communists; Franklin D. and Eleanor. I think they made a mistake and should have executed the Roosevelts instead of the Rosenbergs! I think Frankie & Co did far worse damage to the U.S. then letting out some nuclear secrets. My boy Joe Mc had his work cut out for him. The pinkos were entrenched in government from the early twenties.

I'm glad he helped win WW II

I heard about this idea being pushed by Eleanor Roosevelt.
It was written in 1933. How about this??

The preamble of the book, and the idea, is as follows:

ALL OF THE NATION'S YOUNG PEOPLE OF BOTH SEXES, BETWEEN THE AGES OF 18 AND 26, AS A CONTINUATION OF THEIR PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION, SHALL BE INDUSTRIALLY ORGANIZED TO PRODUCE, UNDER SCIENTIFIC DIRECTION, A SUFFICIENCY OF THE NECESSARY GOODS AND SERVICES TO CONSTITUTE A DECENT LIVELIHOOD AND TO DISTRIBUTE THESE GOODS AND SERVICES WITHOUT BUYING OR SELLING THEM, TO THE ENTIRE POPULATION.

After that, they could produce and enjoy the luxuries of life.

Aren’t we lucky that FDR found it necessary to win the war, before he had the chance to enact all the left-wing ideas he was pushing.


Francis,
How twisted to insinuate Jesus and his "band of cohorts" were gay. Your post shows you have little actual reading knowledge and zero understanding of the Bible, so why even try quoting it?

By the way Mr. Hawkins,
Great article!

eye for an eye
Great article but didn't fully address an eye for an eye. The Bible is clear that it did not mean a literal eye for any eye and gives chapters about exactly what it did mean. It meant being paid for a loss, that's where we get tort law.

Gestall
With all due respect, please don't try and instruct me about the history of Christianity. I have a B.A. degree in that subject.

The notion that I should support a theocracy because there is some historical notion that John Calvin supported such an idea is ridculous!


Nonsense
Are introductions and conclusions a thing of the past? No, of course not. Learn to write.

"A true American patriot may disagree with his government, criticize his nation's policies, or refuse to go along with the majority of his fellow citizens, but he will also never turn his back on his own country or hold it in contempt."

That is balderdash. Jefferson would scoff at that pathetic mess of nationalist piffle. And how do you even define 'country?' The soil and dirt beneath our feet? The flag? The people? the state? Normally, an article has meaning or words with substance that can either be criticized or praised, but your column is nonsense.

Brandon
If what John Hawkins has written is nonsense to you it speaks volumes about your mental capacity to comprehend any topic.

You may not agree with his viewpoint, and should provide an argument against it. But, to call it nonsense is indicative that either you are a moron or disengenous and lazy.

Clay
Hawkins article is of such a low level, simply calling it nonsense would not be lazy, but an efficient use of one's time. However, I've never been good at managing my time, so I called it nonsense after I established why it was nonsense. The term 'country' is ambiguous and carries a number of different meanings. It needs to be defined in this column. Using it without clarification was bad writing. However, I suspect that it was a thoughtless jingoistic jest, which then would explain the lack of clarity.

Clay
Moreover, I sent Hawkins an email clarifying in greater detail my objections. Here it is:

Your bit about Jefferson in the “Five Pieces of Liberal Wisdom” column couldn’t be further off. Jefferson was revolutionary, especially in his younger years, before the power of the Presidency clouded his vision. For a man who seems to tout his knowledge about the ‘founding fathers,’ you might try reading Jefferson’s most famous work.

“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

The implications of what Jefferson wrote are not only embracive of ‘dissent,’ but wholly supportive of revolution.

You also state that “a true American patriot may disagree with his government, criticize his nation's policies, or refuse to go along with the majority of his fellow citizens, but he will also never turn his back on his own country or hold it in contempt.”

Yet, what was the American Revolution if it wasn’t an act of holding one’s country (England) in contempt? The ‘founding fathers’ did not simply ‘disagree’ with their government, they left it, and when it tried to impose its will upon them, they fought it. That is true patriotism. It is the patriotism of liberty – the only patriotism Americans should embrace.

One can only imagine what Jefferson would think of George W. Bush, a man who has spat all over a real Jefferson quote, “The government which governs best, governs least.”

Brandon
The quote from Jefferson describes the right time to turn your back on your country. Mr. Hawkins is responding to the whining, treasonous left who have done nothing but constantly criticize the President, the war and misalign our very troops.

I agree with his response to them. If we ever find ourselves in a situation like Jefferson's quote then would be the appropriate time to rise up in arm and overthrow the Government. This is, unless the left has already succeeded in disarming us and throwing out the 2nd Ammendment.

I doubt very much whether Jefferson, Washington, Monroe or any of the other founding fathers of this country would consider the left anything less than treasonous.

Clay
I suspect that Jefferson, Washington and Monroe would have little patience for a President who simply went to war rather than asking for a formal congressional declaration as the Constitution requires. I also suspect that Jefferson, Washington and Monroe would have nothing but contempt for a President who expanded the power of the executive and supported a massive increase in the welfare state.

Moreover, Jefferson was an opponent of standing armies. He would be abhorred at the size of the military the U.S. government possesses and its presence around the world.

And I'm still unclear how John is using the term 'country.' It seems synonymous with the word 'state' but still I do not know.


Sugary Sweet
Beautiful.

Absolutely
And I find it humorous that a patriot "may" disagree with his government. Yes, we have 'permission' to disagree with the state, its theft, and its overseas murder which it pretties up by calling "war." This permission, of course, might be revoked at anytime in the name of patriotism.

I laugh when I hear the word 'treason' thrown at those who oppose the unconstitutional imperial adventure in the Middle East. It's a shame that conservativism has been attached to perpetual war.

We have a winner...
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross." ~ Sinclair Lewis


Duelling Pinheads
Brandon & Sugary Sweet are your typical far-left moonbats. Only the loony Left could come up with the type of ridiculous posts these two morons have been generating on this thread. Bush Derangement Syndrome rears its ugly head yet again.

Ken
Leftist? Do explain. I’m eager to hear you support your tripe.

Where is the nonsense in stating that Jefferson opposed expansive government power, and that he believed standing armies to be a threat to liberty?

There is in ad on the right side of your screen for the book 'Who Killed the Constitution.' I recommend you look into it.

Ken
Leftist? Do explain. I’m eager to hear you support yourself.

Where is the nonsense in stating that Jefferson opposed expansive government power, and that he believed standing armies to be a threat to liberty?

Oops
I apologize for the double-post. I'm experiencing internet troubles.

Brandon, Pt. 1
"I suspect that Jefferson, Washington and Monroe would have little patience for a President who simply went to war rather than asking for a formal congressional declaration as the Constitution requires."


Brandon, Pt. 2
"Bush did go before both the United Nations various times issuing resolution after resolution which Hussein ignored. He also went before Congress and Congress did declare war.
You're trying to make it sound like Bush just on a whim suddenly attacked Iraq. Also, the Constitution provides for the President right to commit troops. It also specifies that a formal declaration of war must be issued by Congress, which it was.

"I also suspect that Jefferson, Washington and Monroe would have nothing but contempt for a President who expanded the power of the executive and supported a massive increase in the welfare state."

In other words FDR, LBJ, Jimmy Carter.

"Moreover, Jefferson was an opponent of standing armies. He would be abhorred at the size of the military the U.S. government possesses and its presence around the world."

Back in Jefferson's day the vast ocean space between America and Europe made that a reasonable stance. Obviously, after WWII that would have been a foolish stance to take.

Clay
Congress did not declare war. They unconstitutionally transferred the power to go to war to the President. A Congressional declaration of war was not issued and has not been issued since WWII. The opinion of the U.N. is not a reason to invade another country.

Hoover, FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II…

Empire is as wrong now as it was then. Shoddy a-historical excuses do not change the fact that the U.S. government is the true threat to the world. The U.S. military is larger than Russia’s, China’s, North Korea’s, Iran’s, and Iraq’s combined, and invading the Middle East only aggravates the situation. U.S. Empire and meddling in the affairs of other countries brings about externalities which we cannot foresee – 911 was one such externality.

Brandon
"Congress did not declare war. They unconstitutionally transferred the power to go to war to the President. A Congressional declaration of war was not issued and has not been issued since WWII."

Congress did vote to go to war with Iraq. That is what a Declaration of War is. And giving the power to the President to go to war is the purpose of Congress' role in Declaring War.

"Empire is as wrong now as it was then. Shoddy a-historical excuses do not change the fact that the U.S. government is the true threat to the world. The U.S. military is larger than Russia’s, China’s, North Korea’s, Iran’s, and Iraq’s combined, and invading the Middle East only aggravates the situation. U.S. Empire and meddling in the affairs of other countries brings about externalities which we cannot foresee – 911 was one such externality."

This is nothing but your opinion. You are entitled to it, but it is in no way necessarily an accurate picture of the USA.

You may choose to view the country you live in as an evil Empire, and live under the delusion that we are close to being ruled by a tyrant, but it is clear that Bush isn't going to fill that role nor was he ever. You and left just aren't happy that he was elected twice as President. That's what this all boils down to.
The rest is just spin.

Brandon
"Hoover, FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II…"

You can remove Reagan from the list for sure, although as well as the rest of the Rebulicans.
Welfare is the making and onus of Congress. To suggest that Regan was for or contributed to the expansion of welfare is laughable if not disengenous on your part.

Clay and Chris
I would like both of you to refer me to the exact biblical passages, located *specifically* in the new testament, where the *precise* word "abomination" is used in reference to homosexuality. My intuition is that you'll have to search long and hard and through reductive/politicized translations of the bible to find even a passing reference to "abomination" in regards to homosexuality.

The Apostle Paul certainly denounced the misguided sexual mores of the Roman priesthood, which often dictated sodomizing young and vulnerable youths. However, he never referred to consenting adults.

Also, how insipid to make any claims about gay marriage in your posts! I never made any such conclusion based on my biblical readings. However, if you want to play like that, there is no prescribed method for marriage anyway. Jacob had at least two wives, as did many other biblical figures. The bible itself bespeaks the evolving nature of "marriage."

Also, homo-social bonding is any type of interpersonal relationship which involves members of the same sex.

Also, please learn to differentiate between "too" and "to"; it'll make you seem less unintelligent.

Clay
Reagan was all talk. RWR had the power of veto, yet, under his watch, the DOE doubled, foreign aid increased, and Medicare spending ballooned. Indeed, federal entitlements cost $197.1 billion in 1981 and $477 billion in 1987.

http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=488

I smirk at your naive view that Republicans support limited government. Republicans have traditionally been shills for the expansive state. From mercantilist Lincoln to intervention Hoover to Bush II.

Clay
Absolutely not. The Congress voted to ‘give the President the power to commit troops.’ However, constitutionally, only Congress has the power to commit troops. The President then directs the troops after they have been committed – this is to prevent some 500+ Congressman from pulling strings and trying to simultaneously direct a military effort. The founders were clear on this issue. The President may not declare war or commit soldiers overseas.

I do not view this country as an evil empire. I view the U.S. government as a rogue band of criminals who murder people overseas and fund their campaigns with the stolen money of those who live within the shores. And when they don’t have the balls to raise taxes, they simply inflate and wreck the value of the currency. I couldn’t care less that Bush was elected twice as President, since the alternatives were hardly an improvement. It is a fact that the U.S. military is larger than those countries combined. And those who would consider Iran a threat aren’t fooling anyone. The policy of the U.S. government brings wrath back upon the United States. The government cannot march around the globe, murder whoever it wants, redraw national boundaries, dispose of democratically elected leaders, and expect not to suffer consequences.

Francis
"Also, please learn to differentiate between "too" and "to"; it'll make you seem less unintelligent."

Nit picking over typos doesn't make you seem less intelligent.

You are right about the misuse of the word "abomination". But, the passage from Romans below still makes my point:

Romans 1:26c-27
“…to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”

"The Apostle Paul certainly denounced the misguided sexual mores of the Roman priesthood, which often dictated sodomizing young and vulnerable youths. However, he never referred to consenting adults."

I don't know how you managed to nail it down to "Roman Priests" being the object of Paul's scorn.

Brandon
"I smirk at your naive view that Republicans support limited government. Republicans have traditionally been shills for the expansive state. From mercantilist Lincoln to intervention Hoover to Bush II."

Republicans don't necessarily support limited government, but conservatives do, and for a while after Reagen, the conservitives in the party had the attention of the party.

Brandon, Pt. 1
"Absolutely not. The Congress voted to ‘give the President the power to commit troops.’ However, constitutionally, only Congress has the power to commit troops."

Congress passed: "Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq" (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html)

Bush committed them AFTER Congress allowed for it. There was nothing illegal about it at all.

What about Clinton's commitment of troops in Bosnia absent even a Joint Resolution in Congress?

"The President may not declare war or commit soldiers overseas."

None of which happened. Bush did not declare war against Iraq, he went before Congress to lobby for the War against Iraq. He sent troops AFTER Congress allowed it.




Brandon, Pt.2
"I do not view this country as an evil empire. I view the U.S. government as a rogue band of criminals who murder people overseas and fund their campaigns with the stolen money of those who live within the shores. And when they don’t have the balls to raise taxes, they simply inflate and wreck the value of the currency."

First off, your quote from Reply #8:

"Empire is as wrong now as it was then. Shoddy a-historical excuses do not change the fact that the U.S. government is the true threat to the world. The U.S. military is larger than Russia’s, China’s, North Korea’s, Iran’s, and Iraq’s combined, and invading the Middle East only aggravates the situation. U.S. Empire and meddling in the affairs of other countries brings about externalities which we cannot foresee – 911 was one such externality."

Where you cleary characterize the US as an Empire. And based upon the verbage in first quote of you posted in this reply, evil sure seems synonymous.

Brandon, Pt. 3
"The government cannot march around the globe, murder whoever it wants, redraw national boundaries, dispose of democratically elected leaders, and expect not to suffer consequences."

Again, more of you opinion regarding the evil empire of the US. I don't share your viewpoint regarding my country. I don't agree with the neo-conservatives that we need to try and democratize the world. Some places aren't ready for it nor do they want democracy.

Brandon
"...dispose of democratically elected leaders, and expect not to suffer consequences."

So, we were wrong to rid Germany of Hitler? He was democratically elected.

Clay
“Republicans don't necessarily support limited government, but conservatives do, and for a while after Reagen [sic], the conservitives [sic] in the party had the attention of the party.”

And O’ what a splendid job they did with that attention…

“What about Clinton's commitment of troops in Bosnia absent even a Joint Resolution in Congress?”

An absolute disgrace.

“Congress passed: "Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq" (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html)”

Not a declaration of war. You seem to be having trouble differentiating between using the constitutionally authorized power to declare war and unconstitutionally transferring that power to a separate branch of government.

“Where you cleary [sic] characterize the US as an Empire. And based upon the verbage [sic] in first quote of you posted in this reply, evil sure seems synonymous.”

Let us not play this game of semantics. Referring to a ‘U.S. Empire” is a short hand for the longer elaboration I gave later on.

Clay
“Again, more of you opinion regarding the evil empire of the US. I don't share your viewpoint regarding my country. I don't agree with the neo-conservatives that we need to try and democratize the world. Some places aren't ready for it nor do they want democracy.”

‘Evil empire’ is a redundancy. The government has soldiers stationed in over 130 countries in over 700 bases around in globe. If you wish to defend this policy, then do so, and I needn’t remind you that this is my country as well.

“So, we were wrong to rid Germany of Hitler? He was democratically elected.”

I was referring to those elected leaders who had committed no act of aggression against the U.S. But, it might also be useful to know that Hitler’s rise to power was a consequence of U.S. intervention in WW1. The lesson of WW2 is not that we must strike at any leader who uses harsh language (Iran), but that we ought to use prudence in developing a foreign policy and understand that military and economic interventions have consequences that often come back to bite us in the bullocks. Historian Jim Powell has written a fantastic book called Wilson's War which elaborates on this.

Brandon, Pt. 1
"Not a declaration of war. You seem to be having trouble differentiating between using the constitutionally authorized power to declare war and unconstitutionally transferring that power to a separate branch of government."

And, you seem to be trying to obfuscate the meaning of a Declaration of War from Congress.
The Constitution gives no guidance of the verbige of a Declaration of War by Congress.

It is clear that Congress' support of the War on Iraq was clearly there. Your nonsense about the illegality of "transferring the power to conduct war from the Congress to the President" (a seperate power of the Government) is false. That is exactly what the Constitution calls for. And it happened in the authority of Congress giving Bush the right to proceed against Iraq.

Brandon, Pt. 2
"Let us not play this game of semantics. Referring to a ‘U.S. Empire” is a short hand for the longer elaboration I gave later on."

Isn't this just what leftist always do when called out on their own words: "it's just a game of semantics".

But, anyone following our exchange, will readily see that you have been caught. "Semantics" is your attempt to wiggle out of it.

No dice!

Brandon, Pt. 3
"Evil empire’ is a redundancy. The government has soldiers stationed in over 130 countries in over 700 bases around in globe. If you wish to defend this policy, then do so, and I needn’t remind you that this is my country as well."

And here we are yet again, in your writhing twist of spin returning to the fact that you do characterize the U.S. as an "Evil Empire". Why don't you just come clean and admit that that is how you see our country, (or nation,lest you play the "I don't know what country means game).

Brandon, Pt. 4
"But, it might also be useful to know that Hitler’s rise to power was a consequence of U.S. intervention in WW1."

So, once again, it is America's fault that a Hitler rised to power and not the responsiblity of his neighbouring European countries choice to beat Germany down? Oh really. So, his European countries get a pass on thier behavior and America get to be the scape goat? Spoken like a real Marxist.

Brandon, Pt. 5
"Historian Jim Powell has written a fantastic book called Wilson's War which elaborates on this."

So, this is where your nonsense is comming from?
I'm glad that we have gotten that settled. You just go on biting the hand that feeds you, (because, of course, you wouldn't dare leave the comfort and freedom of the "country", "nation", "state" in which you live...just criticize it thinking that somehow that makes you brilliant... part of the intelligensia.

Clay
I’m not sure if your Republican allegiance is blinding you or if you truly lack the brains to distinguish using the congressional power to declare war and turning that decision over to the executive. Whatever the case may be, this conversation is going nowhere. You said it yourself, that “it happened in the authority of Congress giving Bush the right to proceed against Iraq.” And that is precisely what the Congress may not do. It is a violation of the separation of powers.

Using nationalism will get nowhere with me because I am not a nationalist. I have no problem saying that I do not pledge allegiance to a flag under which the blood of the innocent has been spilled. I am not proud of my country because I believe pride should follow something I am responsible for, not something I have inherited by chance.

Is it America’s fault that Hitler came to power? Of course not. But there is a lesson to be learned from WW2 and it is precisely the opposite of what neo-conservatives preach. And what might I ask is nonsensical about the notion that WW1 led to WW2?

I have no qualms with criticizing the actions of foreign governments either, Clay. Our government, the government of Columbia, the government of France, Germany, China, Russia, Vietnam...etc. You may brand me as a so-called “blame America-firster,” but understand that such name calling adds nothing to the conversation. I’ll blame whoever merits blame. And it just so happens that the U.S. government has done a lot of evil and made a lot of mistakes.

Brandon, Pt. 1
"I’m not sure if your Republican allegiance is blinding you..."

My allegiance is with conservartiveism. I vote Republican because that is the party most likely to support my conservative views. A third party candidate, as Ross Perot demonstrated only takes votes away from one party making the other stronger in the end.

"And that is precisely what the Congress may not do. It is a violation of the separation of powers."

How is that not an example of seperation of powers in action? The President didn't just go into Iraq without first getting the approval from Congress. And you accuse me of not having the brains.

Brandon, Pt. 2
"Using nationalism will get nowhere with me because I am not a nationalist. I have no problem saying that I do not pledge allegiance to a flag under which the blood of the innocent has been spilled"

Well according to your opinion, America has a history, every since it's Revolutionary War against Great Britain in "spilling innocent blood". It is crystal clear that you don't like your country. I don't know why you don't relocate to some leftist/socialist country in Europe, like, maybe France.

"And what might I ask is nonsensical about the notion that WW1 led to WW2?"

Who said it was nonsensical? What I took umbrage with is your disengenous attempt to place the blame for WWII on America's shoulders. I also corrected you on why Germany started WWII. Do you even read my responses?

"You may brand me as a so-called “blame America-firster,” but understand that such name calling adds nothing to the conversation."

How does it not add anything to the conversation to define the position you are obviously taking. You should be proud of being an Blame America First is that is trully your stance. And by the way, labeling you that way when it is the ramification of your position about America is not name calling. Questioning the amount of brains in my head is. But, I am used to leftists resorting to name calling.

Brandon, Pt. 3
You speculate that my "Republican allegiance" is blinding me. That can easily be turned around on you with regard to your Democrat/liberal allegiance.

Clay
“A third party candidate, as Ross Perot demonstrated only takes votes away from one party making the other stronger in the end.” Yet, the Republican Party has become increasingly liberal and neo-conservative, and we have achieved nothing by keeping third-party voices out of the American political life. The growth of government hasn’t even slowed down under Republican control. I’m not sure where the third party topic came from, but it’s a discussion worth having, no doubt.

“How is that not an example of separation of powers in action? The President didn't just go into Iraq without first getting the approval from Congress.”

Again, Congress voted to give the power to go to war to the President. This is entirely different from Congress itself going to war, which is the proper constitutional method.

I won’t have the “do you or do you not love America?” debate. And it is in fact the modern day conservative movement that is putting America at risk, with its inflationary policy as a means of funding the Iraq. I could easily claim that through the policies you advocate you are expressing a bitter disdain for the United States. Moreover, U.S. policy towards Japan provoked the attack on Pearl Harbor. That is not to say the Japanese are not responsible – but simply to understand that WW2 was not a clear cut case of good vs. evil, as Sean Hannity would have you believe. Great Britain was very much morally blemished in both WW1 and WW2, and the bombing of civilians by all countries involved was disgraceful. And it is particularly ironic that the U.S. cries out against Iran for pursuing nuclear power when the U.S. is the only country to have used an atomic bomb, and on civilians no less.

Clay
U.S. intervention into the European mincing machine strengthened Soviet Communism and led to the rise of Hitler. This is not “blaming America,” this is simply connecting the historical dots and understanding that government intervention can have unintended consequences. If you wish to define the position I am taking, call it being a historian in the tradition of Lord Acton and holding those who violate the Constitution responsible for their misdeeds.

I’m not sure where you are getting the idea that I believe the Revolutionary War to have been unjust. Nor do I understand why you think I am a leftist/socialist or would have any desire to live in a country that operates under socialism. The U.S. is relatively free and the government in this country hasn’t raped the economy quite as violently and completely as the European states. However, the line between “U.S. ‘capitalism’” and European socialism is blurring to the point where it is dishonest to say that we have capitalism.


Brandon, Pt. 1
"Again, Congress voted to give the power to go to war to the President. This is entirely different from Congress itself going to war, which is the proper constitutional method."

Go back and read the "Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq" (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html)”

In it they are declaring war. Remember the Constitution give Congress the power to declar war. No where does it say how they were to word it.

"I could easily claim that through the policies you advocate you are expressing a bitter disdain for the United States."

You can make that claim no matter how baseless it is."

"Moreover, U.S. policy towards Japan provoked the attack on Pearl Harbor."

What policy was that?

Brandon, Pt. 2
"I won’t have the “do you or do you not love America?” debate."

And I suspect I know why.

"I’m not sure where you are getting the idea that I believe the Revolutionary War to have been unjust."

Oh, something along the lines of your characterization of the Evil US Empire murdering innocents. Which by the way which innocents are troops in Afghanistan and Iraq murdering?

"Nor do I understand why you think I am a leftist/socialist or would have any desire to live in a country that operates under socialism."

My apologies there. You sounded alot like the leftists I have encountered here and elsewhere. You make the same talking points.

Clay
In regards to the Resolution to Authorize the Use of Force, the resolution authorized President Bush to use the Armed Forces of the United States "as he determines to be necessary and appropriate." This is not a declaration of war. It is a transfer of power. Also, notice one of the very leftwing reasons why we went to war: because Iraq didn’t cooperate with the U.N. Conservatives, such as myself, oppose the United Nations, so why should we expect other countries to endure bullying by the U.N. if we don’t want to? Or how about the 1993 assassination attempt citation? If every country whose leader our CIA has attempted to assassinate went to war and dropped bombs on us, I’d be very afraid. As a conservative, I think you should be very skeptical of going to war because of the United Nations.

In regards to Pearl Harbor, here is an article that might interest you. http://www.lewrockwell.com/higgs/higgs77.html. It isn’t anti-American. I’m not wishing that the Japanese would have won – their Empire was dirty and slimy too. I’m just looking at the larger historical context of WW2. I’m a historian. It’s my job.

Clay
I don’t wish to have a “do you love America” debate because it’s fruitless. I’m thankful for my family, my freedoms, my advantages and my opportunities. But I do not pledge allegiance to the flag because I believe nationalism to be a form of idolatry.

In regards to the Revolutionary War, you’re making a large leap in logic. The Revolutionary War was a just war. As was the South’s fight against the North. Which innocent people have been murdered by troops in Iraq and Afghanistan? Are you honestly denying that U.S. bombs haven’t maimed and slaughter thousands of civilians? There are scores of accounts if you simply Google “civilians killed by us soldiers.” And if you broaden the scope beyond Iraq and Afghanistan – the mass murder at Hiroshima and Nagasaki come to mind.

Leftist talking points? Like what? Opposing an imperial adventure in the Middle East? I know plenty of conservatives who don’t support this war. In fact, true conservatives are skeptical of war since it always leads to a larger and more invasion government at home in the economy.


Brandon, Pt. 1
"In regards to the Resolution to Authorize the Use of Force, the resolution authorized President Bush to use the Armed Forces of the United States "as he determines to be necessary and appropriate." This is not a declaration of war. It is a transfer of power."

How is the authorization to use the US Armed Forces in Iraq not a declaration of war? If employing ones military forces into another country and fighting that country's military is not a war, then, what is it?

As for transfer of power, that's exactly what happens when Congress authorizes war, it then give the President the right to engage in his duties as Commander In Chief.

Brandon, Pt.2
"As a conservative, I think you should be very skeptical of going to war because of the United Nations."

We didn't go to war with Iraq because of the United Nations. Bush went before the UN to obtain quite a few, (can't remember the number) of resolutions approved demanding Saddam comply with the UN WMD inspection criteria. I suspect that he did this to show the rest of the world that the US was not going to just act alone, but cooperate with the UN. The UN, while approving Bush's resolutions, was NOT the driving force behind engaging in the War against Iraq.

Like you, I think the UN is a big waste of time and corruption. If I had my way, we would withdraw from it and kick it's Headquarters out of our country.

Brandon, Pt. 3
"In regards to Pearl Harbor, here is an article that might interest you. http://www.lewrockwell.com/higgs/higgs77.html."

I will check that out.

"I’m thankful for my family, my freedoms, my advantages and my opportunities. But I do not pledge allegiance to the flag because I believe nationalism to be a form of idolatry."

So you appreciate all of the freedom, advantages and opportunities that your country gives you but refuse to pledge allegiance to it and instead are quick to bite the hand that feeds you?

Just curious, are you a Jehovah's Witness?



Brandon, Pt. 4
"In regards to the Revolutionary War, you’re making a large leap in logic...."

Not really, should following your absurd characterization of the US military's mission to murder innocent civilians to it's end.

I agree that the Revolutionary War and the Civil War were just. Thanks to the Civil War, States have begun to lose their rights ensured to them by the Constitution and the Federal Government has become bloated exceeding the Constitutional limits on it's powers.



Brandon, Pt. 5
"Which innocent people have been murdered by troops in Iraq and Afghanistan? Are you honestly denying that U.S. bombs haven’t maimed and slaughter thousands of civilians? There are scores of accounts if you simply Google “civilians killed by us soldiers.”"

I am serving in the Air Force. I can assure you that the military does it's best to avoid what we term "collateral damage". Are we always able to avoid it? No. But, overall we get it right most of the time.

As for the thousands of civilian deaths, even thousands more were caused by al Qaeda and the insurgents and other terrorists who flooded into the country via Iran. If the US military had "redeployed" and not fought off that threat, there would have been an even bigger blood bath of innocent civilian blood.


Brandon, Pt. 6
"And if you broaden the scope beyond Iraq and Afghanistan – the mass murder at Hiroshima and Nagasaki come to mind."

Collateral damage wasn't a consideration back then. Most historians agree that had we not ended the war against the Japanese at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the death toll had we invaded Japan would have been much, much more.

"In fact, true conservatives are skeptical of war since it always leads to a larger and more invasion government at home in the economy."

Your use of the term "true conservatives" is ludicrous. If you think you are a true conservative and I am not, just because we disagree, you are not only being arrogant, but wrongheaded as well.


Clay
It gave the President the right to decide whether or not to invade. That is not permitted. Only the Congress may decide. The President is not a king and his role as commander in chief is not a blank check of power.

Read the Resolution. Among the several ridiculous reasons for war are reasons that include the U.N. And the U.N. being even considered as a reason for war should be anathema. And you say it is not the ‘driving force’ behind the war, but what was? That line has changed so many times its difficult to count. The WMD farce was beyond imagination. The U.S. had defeated Iraq in 3 months back in 1991 – to suggest that Iraq was a threat to the U.S. is a joke.

I am not a Jehovah’s Witness, but I can understand why you might think that. At this time in my life I am not committed to a particular denomination, however, Catholicism has captivated me. Why do I need to pledge allegiance to the country? First and foremost, I think pledging allegiance to the country is rather collectivistic – such a ritual does not have a place in a free individualistic society. The pledge was developed by a socialist to inculcate nationalism and obedience in school children. Obey the state! I remember something about ‘thou shalt have no other God’s before me’ and I try to follow that as best I can.

Clay
The military’s mission? In some cases it has been. From Sherman’s March in the “Civil War” to the bombing of Hiroshima and Japan – the United States has used a total war policy to beat down its enemies. During Vietnam, Nixon bombed the hell out of Cambodia, which led to starvation, revolution and Pol-Pot. Churchill (a U.S. ally) and Roosevelt, as well as Hitler, condoned the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. You may argue that these actions were effective or efficient, but there is no denying their barbarism.

I understand the difficulty. But getting it right most of the time still leaves children maimed, property ruined, and innocent people dead. This is why war must be avoided at all costs. Even wars that are just see an increase in the growth of the state, a loss of liberty at home, and “collateral damage,” and so an unjust war, like that in Iraq, must be an abhorrence.

War is just another government program, Clay. And soldiers are bureaucrats with firepower. Iraq is a massive case of government welfare to another country, complete with a subsidized national defense. It will fail just as government programs here at home fail. It will have unintended consequences. Conservatives like to point out that liberals are blind to the unintended consequences of their poverty programs, and they are correct. But conservatives who support the war are equally as blind in their foreign policy.

Clay
The military’s mission? In some cases it has been. From Sherman’s March in the “Civil War” to the bombing of Hiroshima and Japan – the United States has used a total war policy to beat down its enemies. During Vietnam, Nixon bombed all over Cambodia, which led to starvation, revolution and Pol-Pot. Churchill (a U.S. ally) and Roosevelt, as well as Hitler, condoned the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. You may argue that these actions were effective or efficient, but there is no denying their barbarism.

I understand the difficulty. But getting it right most of the time still leaves children maimed, property ruined, and innocent people dead. This is why war must be avoided at all costs. Even wars that are just see an increase in the growth of the state, a loss of liberty at home, and “collateral damage,” and so an unjust war, like that in Iraq, must be an abhorrence.

War is just another government program, Clay. And soldiers are bureaucrats with firepower. Iraq is a massive case of government welfare to another country, complete with a subsidized national defense. It will fail just as government programs here at home fail. It will have unintended consequences. Conservatives like to point out that liberals are blind to the unintended consequences of their poverty programs, and they are correct. But conservatives who support the war are equally as blind in their foreign policy.

Clay
“Collateral damage” was absolutely a consideration, and many American Generals opposed the use of nuclear weapons on the Japanese population, including MacArthur, Adm. William Leahy and Dwight Eisenhower. The idea that the death toll would have been great is propaganda from the government. Here is an accomplished historian who abhors the bombings. http://www.lewrockwell.com/raico/raico22.html

Here is an article from the Institute for Historical Review. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

It is simply untrue that most historians believe the toll doll was lower since we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Paul Tibbets went to his grave denying that what he had done was murder on a large scale – he tranquilized his conscience with jingoism and “I was just follow orders” tripe. But history tells the story of a could be considered a genocide and what certainly was an act of terrorism.

Edit
Ugh, I have no idea why Townhall doesn't permit posters to edit their replies. "Toll doll" should be "death toll" and there are some others errors but I think you can decipher what I'm trying to type.

Brandon, Pt. 1
"The President is not a king and his role as commander in chief is not a blank check of power."

I'm with you on that thought and I never even implied such.

"Read the Resolution. Among the several ridiculous reasons for war are reasons that include the U.N. And the U.N. being even considered as a reason for war should be anathema. And you say it is not the ‘driving force’ behind the war, but what was?"

Ridiculous reasons? As a condition of Saddam Hussein's surrender after the Gulf War, the UN mandated that he allow inspections to ensure that he had dismantled/destroyed all WMD weapons in his possession. He continued to play games with all inspections. Any reasonable person would draw the conclusion that he was hiding something.

Both the Clinton Administration and the Bush Administration believed that Iraq had WMDs and that Saddam was a threat that needed to be dealt with. Bush's going to the UN to get more resolutions passed seved as the proper warning to Saddam to either comply or face military action.

The UN was not the driving force behind the Iraq War, Iraq's WMDs and the unwillingness of Saddam to comply to the mandated inspections were. It wasn't the UN that requested that we attack Iraq ergo, the UN was not the driving force.

Brandon, Pt. 2
"Obey the state! I remember something about ‘thou shalt have no other God’s before me’ and I try to follow that as best I can."

I do too, but pledging allegiance to your country (obeying the state) is not in any way shape or form idolatry, no more than obeying the Pope is. Also, the Bible also says to obey the state. St. Paul told us to obey the rulers over us. Jesus, himself said to "render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's.

Brandon, Pt.3
"I understand the difficulty. But getting it right most of the time still leaves children maimed, property ruined, and innocent people dead. This is why war must be avoided at all costs."

I couldn't disagree with you more strongly. But then again I'm not an isolationist. I wonder if instead of being a conservative you are a Ron Paul libertarian?

Even wars that are just see an increase in the growth of the state, a loss of liberty at home, and “collateral damage,” and so an unjust war, like that in Iraq, must be an abhorrence.

What loss of liberty at Home? How does the government grow by providing for the common defense? I also do not agree with Iraq as being an unjust war. Just getting rid of that human rights violating monster, Saddam was worth it. The belief that he had WMDs made him a threat. He was no threat to the US? Let's see, he tried to have President George H. W. Bush assinated for one thing. How does that not make him a threat?

Brandon, Pt. 4
"War is just another government program, Clay. And soldiers are bureaucrats with firepower."

Ok this is just total nonsense coming from you. Do you really mean that?

"But conservatives who support the war are equally as blind in their foreign policy."

No, I would say conservative/libertarian isolationist are blind to the possible ramifications of ignoring foreign policy/threats.

Brandon, Pt. 5
"“Collateral damage” was absolutely a consideration..."

Wrong. The allies bombed German factories killing thousands of civilians working there, more than likely also boming surrounding houses and towns.

"The idea that the death toll would have been great is propaganda from the government."

Hardly government propaganda. My father's father was stationed in Okinawa, had we not ended the war against Japan in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, he would have had to join the invasion into Japaneese mainland. Every Japaneese man and woman were prepared to fight to the death, not just the military. My Grandfather would never have come back home alive. It would have been, undoubtedly a giant bloodbath.

"Here is an accomplished historian who abhors the bombings. http://www.lewrockwell.com/raico/raico22.html"

That's his opinion.



Brandon, Pt. 6
"It is simply untrue that most historians believe the toll doll was lower since we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

How is it untrue? Because you don't share that view? Or one historian doesn't share that view?

"During Vietnam, Nixon bombed all over Cambodia, which led to starvation, revolution and Pol-Pot."

Pol-Pot's massacre of his killing fields was a result of the liberal's victory in pulling us out of VietNam, not, Nixon's bombs.

I think the bottom line to all of this is that you are an isolationist who resents America's role in resucing Europe, not once, but twice from tyranny. You would have preferred that Saddam Hussein ran over Kuwait, gaining more territory and oil. You would have had America ignore Saddam Hussein and his WMDs/nuclear development, and you hate America for doing those things, because for you War is always the wrong answer, unless we are being attacked right here on our mainland maybe.

I disagree. I don't think that we should be warmongers. War isn't glorious like those old John Wayne movies, but it is sometimes necessary. This isn't 1789, America can't hide behind the safety of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.

Clay
I've enjoyed our conversation. But it must come to an end at some point and my paper on the Great Depression that I will be presenting at a conference in September has returned and is waiting to be edited. To answer a few of your questions, I am a libertarian and did support Ron Paul, though calling me a "Ron Paul libertarian" gives Ron too much credit since I've been a libertarian long before he ran for office. And I did want to make mention of the Pol Pot situation - pulling out of Vietnam was not the cause of Pol Pot's reign of terror. Bombing the Cambodian countryside led to starvation and unrest and eventually to revolution. I'm not sure where the idea that our leaving Vietnam led to Pol Pot - I know Reagan mentioned it in a speech in front of the Vietnam Memorial, but it isn't true at all. Perhaps we'll find each other again on Townhall.com and we can pick up where we have left off. Best regards. Brandon

About that violence thing
There seems to be some basic disagreement here
about who we are as a people. The torture
thing is not about whether it works or not,
it is not about whether they deserve it or not,
it is not about whether they have the rights of our citizens or not.

It is about who we are. Are we the sort of
people who torture? I would hope that we are not, but I think that probably we are.

Killing someone and torturing are two different things. In time of war, killing becomes
necessary sometimes. Torture does not. It
accomplishes nothing except finding a target
for your hatred.

If we can say that torture is not allowed on
our citizens, then why not for others.

Brandon
It was nice talking with you too. I do disagree with about Pol Pot and his masacree as well as a few more of your comments. But, I do respect your right to believe what you wish to believe. Good luck with your Depression paper. I wish you the best. We can disagree without being ugly.

This article is filled with flaws...
You contradict yourself several times over.

And offer the wrong justifications for the things which ARE CORRECT.

Don't quit your day job guy...
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