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Friday, June 20, 2008
John Hawkins :: Townhall.com Columnist
Tackling Five Modern Myths Created By Liberals Part 2
by John Hawkins
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Correcting the myths created and propagated by the liberals in the mainstream media could be an all day, every day job. In fact, there are organizations like the Media Research Center that do just that.

However, the mainstream media is so biased to the Left and churns out so many inaccuracies each day, that sometimes even truly enormous myths manage to slip through the cracks and become accepted as fact. Last week, I covered five of those big lies. This week, I'm going to take on five more left-wing fantasies that you've undoubtedly heard repeated over and over again ad nauseam.

No weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq: This one is such an article of faith on the Left that they actually mock people for saying otherwise, but the reality is far different from what they would have you believe.

Roughly two years ago, Rick Santorum revealed that over 500 WMDs had been found in Iraq. Since then, more have been found although it's difficult to get an exact count. Despite the fact that the WMDs our troops located were old, as Santorum explained, the finds were very significant,

"One of the things that we asserted was that (Hussein) had not destroyed his stockpiles of weapons from the previous war. We sent in weapons inspectors, as people will recall, not only to look at whether he had current weapons programs in place, but to determine whether he had destroyed the weapons he said he had destroyed. It is very clear that he did not destroy those weapons and that those weapons would have been available and unfortunately still are available to...terrorist organizations that could use them against us or other countries around the world."

Of course, you can fairly argue that those were old WMDs that varied in their level of effectiveness because of their age, but that's far different from saying that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction when we invaded.

Tax cuts lead to revenue drops for the federal government: Liberals regularly claim that revenue from tax cuts must be "made up" somehow, which ignores the fact that government revenue usually goes up after tax cuts.

That was certainly the case after the Bush, Kennedy, and Reagan tax cuts, which makes perfect sense if you understand the Laffer Curve.

There are lots of intelligent arguments that you can make about taxes. You can argue that tax raises may also increase revenue, that tax cuts may reduce the size of the future increase in revenue the government will receive, or that we could eventually cut taxes so dramatically that they would no longer yield revenue increases, but clearly the last few major tax cuts we've had have produced increases in federal revenue, not decreases.

After General Eric Shinseki said we would need 500,000 troops to handle post-war Iraq, he was fired: Whether Shinseki was right about the number of troops we needed is debatable, given that we obviously didn't have enough boots-on-the-ground in the immediate aftermath of the war -- but are winning today with a far smaller number of soldiers than Shinseki said we should have -- but in any case, the United States Department Of Defense has made it absolutely clear that Shinseki wasn't fired, retired, or removed for his remarks,

Gen. Shinseki was appointed to a four-year term as chief of staff of the Army and served his full term. When Gen. Shinseki made his oft-cited statement about troop levels in February 2003 during a congressional hearing, it was already well-known that his term would end six months later. Serving longer would have been extraordinary. The only two men to serve longer than four years in the entire 103-year history of the position have been Gen. Douglas MacArthur and Gen. George Marshall.

George Bush stole the 2004 election by cheating in Ohio: This conspiracy theory doesn't inspire as many tantrums as the Florida controversy in 2000, but there are liberals galore who will tell you that Kerry really won Ohio in 2004 and thus, the election.

The problem with this idea is that the margin in Ohio was so large that it practically precluded the possibility of fraud making the difference. The initial margin was 118,443 votes, which was more than 220 times the difference between Bush and Gore in Florida. If every state -- that was won by even half that many votes -- became controversial, it's hard to see how we could ever make it through another election without months of charges and counter-charges to go along with never-ending legal challenges.

Moreover, as Michael O'Grady, the legal counsel to the Ohio Democratic Party once said, given the size of Bush's win, in order to believe the election in Ohio was stolen, you'd have to think, "that the entire Republican Party is conspiratorial and the entire Democratic Party is as dumb as rocks."

Since at least the first half of that statement is completely untrue, Ohio obviously wasn't stolen.

Oil companies gouge consumers to make outsized profits: Unsurprisingly, given the outrageously high cost of gas and the Left's penchant for pointing the fickle finger of blame at big corporations, we've heard a lot about how big oil is gouging consumers.

However, when you take a look at the actual numbers in California, for example, you find that the "Distribution Costs, Marketing Costs and Profits" for the oil companies make up only 8 cents per gallon of gas.

That doesn't sound like gouging, does it? But if you believe it does, what would you say about the 70 cents per gallon in taxes that's paid by California consumers? Additionally, as Karl Rove has pointed out,

(Oil companies) make about 8.3 cents in gross profit per dollar of sales....Electronics make 14.5 cents per dollar and computer equipment makers take in 13.7 cents per dollar, according to the Census Bureau. Microsoft's margin is 27.5 cents per dollar of sales.

Sure, these oil companies are huge and therefore, even an 8.3% profit adds up to billions of dollars, but when you look at the relatively small percentage that they're putting in their pockets as compared to the humongous share that the government is raking in, it's pretty clear that it's the government, not the oil companies, that is gouging consumers.

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About The Author
John Hawkins is a professional blogger who runs Right Wing News, Linkiest, and Viral Footage.
 
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Folks
"This week, I'm going to take on five more left-wing fantasies that you've undoubtedly heard repeated over and over again ad nauseam."

Folks, does Hawkins really believe these misleading statements? I mean quoting failed Senator Santorum for statements that even the White House debunks is a bit over the top even for all the fearful and timid conservatives. This whole piece is nonsense and grossly misleading LMAO

Wll John, I see
you are still trying to be polite and calling these things "myths". In actuality they are LIES that would have never been believed by anyone if they had not been repeated by the MSM endlessly.

BTW, how is it that you have been rated a 3 and nobody has posted yet???

Name-calling response
To demonstrate the response you can expect from liberals to a piece like this, look for name-calling. Expect phrases such as the "failed Senator Santorum," "fearful and timid conservatives." What you will not see is any rational debate of the issues.

the fall of supply-side arguments
It is interesting how far the use of the Laffer curve has fallen. The curve actually makes the rather trivial point that there is a point of diminishing return on raising tax rates. But, of course, that doesn't tell one where that point is. But the curve (if filled in with parameters) gives revenue vs tax rates. It does not distinguish between getting to those rates through tax cuts vs tax increases.

But if course the steady increase in revenue that followed the Clinton tax increase makes an actual defense of supply side economics impossible, and so we get this artificial limitation to tax cuts rather than applying it to tax rates.

But even in the case of the tax cuts, the case is weak. After all, we generally cut taxes during recessions. And revenues naturally go up after recessions simply because revenues naturally end.

On top of that, we do not have a history of cutting taxes without also raising spending. Both Reagan and Bush increased spending dramatically. But increased federal spending increases revenues since that spending goes to people in the form of taxable salaries, and is put in the pockets of people who spend it increasing business, etc. Of course while revenue increases, deficits generally increase more. Which is why cutting taxes is consistently associated with ballooning deficits (as one would expect if supply-side economics was nonsense).

Some tax cuts can temporarily pay for themselves. The same is true for some spending increases. But the lesson of the Reagan and Bush years is that this is seldom the case for long.

question for liberals
I wonder if any liberal will show up here to defend said myths.

I would really like one of the usual suspects to tell me how much profit is considered "excessive", by answering this question:
If you were going to start a business, what would percent would you aim to return on your investment?
If you were going to invest in someone starting a business, what percent return on your money would make it worthwhile for you to put it at risk?
I expect no answers.

Hey John, we have another LIE
from the liberal Komizars that you need to add.

Nuclear power is "subsidized" by the Price-Anderson Act. See the Gallager thread.

Vic
Hal D says everything is a myth, but we know that the libs, if they can't spin it to meet the BDS, they don't post. Monkey Girl, aka Kimbat onlys pists on Malkin, Limbaugh or Coulter columns and goes into "cave blogging" here on the side, because she gets away with spin about the mean old RW-right wing, ha. Obama was just leveling the playing field while "McSame" is a loser. She hates Christians, but Obama is one, we are the racists, and he's only surrounded by them...you get the picture about myths. The trolls don't like facts that can't be spun. Facts to a troll equal a myth created by nasty conservative RW'ers!!!

no WMD
Actually, people should read the report that gave rise to the headlines "no WMD". It would then be evident that the lazy journalists did not read it.
In fact, Saddam had the materiel, the plan, and the intent. He had everything he needed (in pieces) to assemble wmd and all of that could have been deployed in a matter of weeks.
It's like saying you have no bike because it's not assembled yet.

creative libs
A liberal poster pointed out to me (proudly) in the last few days that liberals were far more "creative" than conservatives.
It's true, they grab the message. They are masters of the soundbite and bumpersticker slogans, which as Vic points out are lies, not myths.
I know it has good meanings, but "creative" is how my dad described liars.

Lefty Wonka & the Misinformation Factory

(Q) How can you tell a Leftie is Lying?

(A) His lips are flapping.

The Lefties hit upon success in the '60s by sitting around in a circle of jerks, smoking dope, and making up slogans that could be repeated over and over.

They found that they could pass this drivel off as poetry, get dope smoking English Professors to pedal it to dope smoking English Majors and thus brainwash a generation of undergrads.

Truth?

The facts didn't matter, and NO MATTER HOW FALSE THE INFORMATION THESE LEFTIES CONVINCED THEMSELVES THEY WERE CONVEYING ETERNAL TRUTHS.

Thus the schism between facts and truth was born.

Realizing that the more the population was confused, the more they could slip in and exchange their propaganda for facts, and claim that they are getting at "THE TRUTH."

So they told us that Shakespeare didn't really write Shakespeare, and that Abraham Lincoln was gay. They told us that women are just like men, and that gays are born "that way" (although the Left never explained why gays choose men since there is supposedly no diff between men and women).

Like idiots, we allow this slight-of-hand to distract us over trivial nonsensical details, while they kept slipping in things that would undermine our very existance itself.

The War in Iraq and the disinformation campaign by the activist Left demonstrates how skillfull the Leftie have become in mobilizing their network of useful idiots.

I wonder what these fools will do when they wake one day in a Gulag?

Remember, the mob in Paris turned on Robespeirre, and the Commies in Russia turned on the intellectuals that had supported them in revolution.

Lon
"Reply # 4
....But if course the steady increase in revenue that followed the Clinton tax increase makes an actual defense of supply side economics impossible, and so we get this artificial limitation to tax cuts rather than applying it to tax rates.

...On top of that, we do not have a history of cutting taxes without also raising spending. Both Reagan and Bush increased spending dramatically. ...Which is why cutting taxes is consistently associated with ballooning deficits (as one would expect if supply-side economics was nonsense).

...But the lesson of the Reagan and Bush years is that this is seldom the case for long. "

You nailed it

Al Gore Syndrome
I can't wait for the day the Global Warming myth is exposed for the fraud it is. It kind of makes me nervous that they are so many liberals in this country who buy into these lies.

Can we survive as a democracy when we have so many stupid people who think emotionally, not rationally?

Perhaps this is the Al Gore syndrome that is worse than AIDs because it destroys not the body, but the intellect?

Nee
They ALL practice Uncle Joe's Big Lie Technique. Said it load, say it often and get the MSM to repeat it for you endlessly.

When challanged, scream it again over and over. They are like worthless men who are caught in bed with another woman by their wives...deny deny deny even when there is line of site evidence. (the who are you going to believe, me or your luying eyes syndrom)

LOL
I hope I have enough typos in that last post.

Loud, lying et al.

Weapons of Mass Destruction
Associated Press
updated 9:24 p.m. ET, Mon., April. 25, 2005

WASHINGTON - In his final word, the CIA’s top weapons inspector in Iraq said Monday that the hunt for weapons of mass destruction has “gone as far as feasible” and has found nothing, closing an investigation into the purported programs of Saddam Hussein that were used to justify the 2003 invasion.

“After more than 18 months, the WMD investigation and debriefing of the WMD-related detainees has been exhausted,” wrote Charles Duelfer, head of the Iraq Survey Group, in an addendum to the final report he issued last fall.

“As matters now stand, the WMD investigation has gone as far as feasible.”

In 92 pages posted online Monday evening, Duelfer provides a final look at an investigation that occupied over 1,000 military and civilian translators, weapons specialists and other experts at its peak. His latest addenda conclude a roughly 1,500-page report released last fall.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/

Jerseyvet
You don't have to wait. It has already been exposed as a fraud and a scam over and over again via links to peer reviewed research right here on TH.

Jerseyvet
Reply # 12
"...I can't wait for the day the Global Warming myth is exposed for the fraud it is. It kind of makes me nervous that they are so many liberals in this country who buy into these lies."

Did you see the White House just announced that they now support global warming as "real". It is not the libs being emotional it is you conservatives being both emotional and shirking responsiblity

Dems giving us all some mirth
When the Republicans win an election, "they stole" or "they cheated" blah blah blah ect. When the Democrats win, everything was above board, fair and square.

When the Dems loose the electoral college vote, but win the popular vote, "the system sucks" "the system needs to be changed" "the system is outdated" blah blah blah ect.

When the Dems win the electoral college vote, but loose the popular vote, "everything works fine" "the system is good" ect.

I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about here, except of-course, the libs, so I don't really need to add a commentary about how some want to "change the rules" like some spoiled, stupid adolescent thats got to have it their way.

Now watch closely as the guilt from my accurate point drives them to attack this post but mostly puerile ad hominem attacks.

Tax cuts lead to revenue drops
The Return Of Voodoo Economics
Republicans Ignore Their Experts on The Cost of Tax Cuts

By Sebastian Mallaby
Monday, May 15, 2006; Page A17
Washington Post

"Okay, so let's review this issue with the help of some experts. I'd like to cite Richard Kogan of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, because his work inspired this column. But to win over reasonable conservatives, I'm going to choose N. Gregory Mankiw of Harvard, a proponent of tax cuts who chaired the Council of Economic Advisers in the Bush White House. Mankiw is a top-notch economist hired by Bush and Cheney to advise them. And last year he published a paper on how far tax cuts pay for themselves, reporting enthusiastically that this self-financing effect is "surprisingly large."

How large, exactly? Mankiw reckons that over the long run (the long run being generous to his argument), cuts on capital taxes generate enough extra growth to pay for half of the lost revenue. Hello, Mr. President, that means that the other half of the lost revenue translates into bigger deficits. Mankiw also calculates that the comparable figure for cuts in taxes on wages is 17 percent. Yes, Mr. President, that means every $1 trillion in tax cuts is going to add $830 billion to the national debt."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/0 5/14/AR2006051400806.html



bluejacket
"...Now watch closely as the guilt from my accurate point drives them to attack this post but mostly puerile ad hominem attacks. "

LMAO whyever for????

Gen. Shinseki
Straw man, who said that he was fired?

Hawkins is a Dweeb, but....
I will only respond to those ideas that I personally hold. They are not myths.

1) Saddam Hussein had no WMD's. This is not a myth: this is the truth. The 500 munitions claimed by Santorum were random, rusted, unusable artifacts left over in garbage dumps and forgotten cellars. Hawkins is playing the same sort of game children play where anything except absolute, 100% literal accuracy gives him leeway to make his claim.

If Saddam had WMD's, then someone should tell Bush, because he has admitted there weren't any.

2) Hawkins plays a different game with taxes: only telling half the story. Or maybe 25% of the story. Tax cuts not connected to spedning control produces massive deficits. The greatest deficits in American History have come following the Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II tax cuts.

3)WHile it si true Eric Shinseki was not "fired", he was undercut in such a way as to make his early departure all but mandatory. Again, Hawkins plays the literal word game.

4) There are several ways to loook at oil company "gouging." Their profit margin might stay the same per gallon of gas, but that assumes the only way oil companies make money is at the pump. There's far more to it than that. The point Hawkins doesn't make, but could, is that oil companies don't "set" prices. Commodities markets do that. Oil companies could sell their oil at prices lower than those generated by the market, which would result in a dramatically lower cost.

tubbs
shhh you will scare them all away with facts, etc...

Jack
Those word games of telling lies while only making "true" statements were perfected to science by Rush but all extremes use the approach but Rush is still the "master" LOL

Hal and the 'No WMD'ers
Hal,
Like the WH endorsing GW says I have to be a sheeple? Global warming is bullsheisse.
And you freking lunatics who say there were no WMD's...
What the liberals wanted us to find-big honking bombs and such that would blow the smithereens out of whatever it touched. What was actually found are all things necessary to create the bombs, so to them it is not a WMD. Sadly, this is how they view the WOT. Does that make the chemicals and cntrifuges any less dangerous? To a liberal, yes, of course!! It means that Saddam didn't really want to kill his own people and he sure wasn't going to sell it to Russia or Iran, right? It also means he didn't have any Uranium either, because Bush was stupid and gave him the time to get it to Syria...Oh, for one day, I'd love to wear Rose-colored glasses and be afflicted with the "if it feels good, do it" disease. Just one day.

BlueJacket-- Lefties claim we "stole"
It is interesting that the Lefties project their election corruption onto the rest of us.

Chicago, the town that gave Obama his political start, is famous for the political corruption, especially at the ballot box. How many more dead people get to vote, now that there are absentee ballots?

The Leftie mantra that we engaged in cheating is mere smoke meant to cover their nefarious tracks as they register illegals to vote.

The Left has taken the skill of obfuscation to the level of a fine art.

Jack and Hal --
If "anything except absolute, 100% literal accuracy gives him leeway to make his claim" is a "game children play," what does that make the fellow who wagged his bent finger in our faces and said "I want you to listen to me, I did not have sex with that woman..."?

Just asking...

Nee
"...What the liberals wanted us to find-big honking bombs and such that would blow the smithereens out of whatever it touched."

No that is what Dick the chicken hawk Cheney said.

"What was actually found are all things necessary to create the bombs, so to them it is not a WMD. "

Read the report and stop listening to propaganda geesh. Facts, go for facts read the reports. The latest they had everything spin is not true either and remember Bush invaded because Saddam was an immediate threat - that was his lie

"... It also means he didn't have any Uranium either, because Bush was stupid and gave him the time to get it to Syria..."

proof just once a fact???? Dick Cheney claimed we KNEW where everything was. You were duped admit it just like what nearly 85% of our people

MountainRose and SunThe1
MountainRose:
Since you live in California, I'm reminded of a comment I read years ago by a former Sacramento Bee columnist named Linda Bowles: "I've discovered that liberals are unredeemably in love in their delusions". That's why, whenever I'm confronted by some liberal who claims, for example, that Al Gore really won Florida and the 2000 presidential election, I don't even try to argue it with them. Gore's supposed victory in 2000 has become an article of faith to liberals. If you're an aspiring Democratic Party office-holder, try telling people that you genuinely believe that George Bush legitimately won the 2000 presidential election and see if you'll have a future after that in the Democratic Party. I'm betting the answer is NO.

SunThe1:
Here's the one question I would like to ask liberals and see if they dare to answer (as with your question, I'm betting the answer is no). Since liberals constantly throw around the term "working families", I would like them to tell me: what do you libs define as a "working family". Would a couple with one child at home with both parents working, one as a lawyer, the other in a government job and pulling in between them over $300K a year qualify to libs as a "working family"? The kind of family I've just described, by the way, includes the Clintons while Bill was governor of Arkansas, so if the Clintons would not qualify as a "working family", I guess that means that Bill and Hill must not have done any work for the compensation they were getting at the time from the state of Arkansas and the Rose Law Firm, respectively. Would it include a family with minor children at home, a stay-at-home mom, and a husband who's a corporate executive putting in 60-hour weeks and earning a 7-figure compensation? If not, I guess then highly-paid corporate employees don't "work" for a living, either. Any of you libs have the cojones to answer?

Petronius
"..If "anything except absolute, 100% literal accuracy gives him leeway to make his claim" is a "game children play," what does that make the fellow who wagged his bent finger in our faces and said "I want you to listen to me, I did not have sex with that woman..."?"

the same technicly telling a truth to convey a lie

Reply to Jack
You wrote, "Saddam Hussein had no WMD's."

Tell that to the Kurds who were gassed by Saddam. Tell that to the Iranians too. Tell that to the Israelis whom destroyed Saddam's nuke plant in about 1982. Tell that to general Iraqi general Georges Sada that has testified of his personal knowledges of WMD. Sada: "I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that Saddam hid his weapons of mass destruction in 2002 and 2003 by transporting them to Syria." In addition, you miss the larger point that Saddam purposely misled the world into believing he still possessed WMD after storing them in Syria in order to dissuade possible attacks. The lesson to be learned here is: Do not bluff the USA about still having WMD!

You wrote, "2) Hawkins plays a different game with taxes: only telling half the story. Or maybe 25% of the story. Tax cuts not connected to spedning control produces massive deficits. The greatest deficits in American History have come following the Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II tax cuts."

This is masterful deceit! Of course, conservatives have always said that spending cuts must accompany tax cuts. The Democratic congress continued its irresponsible spening because the tax cuts gave them more revenue to spend. You cleverly slipped that caveat into your statement. Without accompanying spending cuts then the revenue increased is washed out. Bottom line: tax cuts DO increase tax revenues! Supply-side economics works!

Nee-Vic
Liberal have NOTHING on Uncle Remus, Aesop, Mother Goose, etc.

Georgetwin
But those were all fables, which arfe morality tales designed to uplift and educate.

The liberals tell lies.

Mountain Rose
The exact rules for Chi-town/IL voting is ...

-if you're dead vote once

-if you're alive, vote early, vote often.

Obama came to the big dem machine, so we know he really is a different kind of politician

Steve
That is clever the way that you take the claim that Hussein did not have WMDs in 2003 and pretend it is shown false by the fact that he did have them at early times. People who don't remember what claim you are supposedly refuting might actually be tricked by that.

Shinseki
With regard to the Shinseki issue, Shinseki was effectively marginalized after having the nerve to give an honest account of what we were facing in Iraq. His retirement was announced to give him official lame duck status so that what he said would be understood not to be administration policy after that.

It is true that this effective firing was confused for an actual firing, so many liberals did make the claim that he was fired. Saying that Shinseki was fired is actually less misleading than Hawkins pretense that he simply went throught the normal process of stepping down. The public announcement of lame duck status is not normal.

John Hawkins Doesn't Have a Clue
John Hawkins,

It's sad but comically ironic when someone posts a supposed myth-busting post in which he perpetuates myths on the same subject -- even perpetuating a myth by his very rejection of the supposed myth he's supposedly busting.

You have demonstrated in your post that you (1) don't know what the argument is, (2) don't understand one of the most fundamental economic concepts (that of ceteris paribus), (3) that you are simply confused.

(continued in next comment due to word limit)

John Hawkins Doesn't Have a Clue
(continued from my prior comment)

Your statements (in quotes) and my refutations follow:

"Liberals regularly claim that revenue from tax cuts must be "made up" somehow, which ignores the fact that government revenue usually goes up after tax cuts."

No, it doesn't. Revenues generally go up regardless of whether we have tax cuts or tax increases, because of inflation, and even in real (inflation-adjusted) terms because GDP usually grows regardless of tax policy. However, there is nearly universal agreement among well-credentialed economists that tax cuts (in individual labor and investment income) from tax rates anywhere near where we are today or were before the Bush tax cuts have a substantial net NEGATIVE impact on revenues -- SEE http://logicizer.blogtownhall.com/2007/11/15/no,_the_bush_ tax_cuts_have_not_generated_higher_revenues.thtml for the views of conservative economists on this matter. In other words, revenues are much lower THAN THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN HAD THE TAX CUTS NOT TAKEN PLACE (i.e., cetaris paribus). The incremental growth and reduced tax avoidance are simply not great enough to come even close to offsetting the rate reductions and producing anything close to revenue-neutrality, let alone net revenue gain. So revenues would still generally go up over time, but it would be DESPITE the tax cuts, NOT BECAUSE of them. The need to "make up" for that lost revenue (the revenue we would have had if not for the tax cuts), either via spending cuts or other revenue increases, is because we face an unsustainable long-term fiscal imbalance (or haven't you heard?) and we need to reduce our annual deficits now while the baby boomers are still working.

(continued in next comment due to word limit)

John Hawkins Doesn't Have a Clue
(continued from my prior comment)

“That was certainly the case after the Bush, Kennedy, and Reagan tax cuts, which makes perfect sense if you understand the Laffer Curve.”

YOU don't understand the Laffer Curve. If you did, you'd realize that it does NOT support the argument that tax cuts always, or even generally, increase revenues. Read up on it, and SEE this too http://logicizer.blogtownhall.com/2007/10/20/the_logic_of_ the_laffer_curve.thtml

“You can argue that...tax cuts may reduce the size of the future increase in revenue the government will receive, or that we could eventually cut taxes so dramatically that they would no longer yield revenue increases, but clearly the last few major tax cuts we've had have produced increases in federal revenue, not decreases.”

So you say that "tax cuts may reduce the size of the future increase in revenue" -- that means that revenues may increase, DESPITE the negative net impact of the tax cuts -- and then you say that clearly the last few major tax cuts have "produced" increases in revenue -- an assertion that the tax cuts CAUSED the increases in revenue. Obviously the tax cuts (over whatever period to which you're referring) could not have had both a positive and a negative net impact. Hence you are contradicting yourself. You are confused. At first you seem to perhaps grasp the concept of ceteris paribus (the net effect of one factor, aside from other factors that can have the opposite effect and mask the effect of the factor in question), but then you show that you don't get it at all.

“There are lots of intelligent arguments that you can make about taxes.”

Yup, try making one.

Doofus
Even if I provided you with links, you would find some excuse to tell me it's propaganda. Please. If you ever showed one shread of intelligence I might care what you think. Rather, you bleat back with opinions about how wrong the rest of us are. When have you ever read a single thing the rest of us have pointed you to, to actually engage you in debate? Answer? NEVER. I have the links but it's apparent that you are superior in your own mind to engage in actual debate with the rest of us who care to do so.

For Hal, Lon and,,,
you others that show you have absolutely no concept of economics:
Clinton claimed surpluses by gutting (stealing the funds from) and decimating the military--one of the few areas where the federal government is supposed to be in control.

John Hawkins Doesn't Have a Clue
(continued from my prior comment)

“That was certainly the case after the Bush, Kennedy, and Reagan tax cuts, which makes perfect sense if you understand the Laffer Curve.”

YOU don't understand the Laffer Curve. If you did, you'd realize that it does NOT support the argument that tax cuts always, or even generally, increase revenues. Read up on it, and SEE this too http://logicizer.blogtownhall.com/2007/10/20/the_logic_of_ the_laffer_curve.thtml

“You can argue that...tax cuts may reduce the size of the future increase in revenue the government will receive, or that we could eventually cut taxes so dramatically that they would no longer yield revenue increases, but clearly the last few major tax cuts we've had have produced increases in federal revenue, not decreases.”

So you say that "tax cuts may reduce the size of the future increase in revenue" -- that means that revenues may increase, DESPITE the negative net impact of the tax cuts -- and then you say that clearly the last few major tax cuts have "produced" increases in revenue -- an assertion that the tax cuts CAUSED the increases in revenue. Obviously the tax cuts (over whatever period to which you're referring) could not have had both a positive and a negative net impact. Hence you are contradicting yourself. You are confused. At first you seem to perhaps grasp the concept of ceteris paribus (the net effect of one factor, aside from other factors that can have the opposite effect and mask the effect of the factor in question), but then you show that you don't get it at all.

“There are lots of intelligent arguments that you can make about taxes.”

Yup, try making one.

Oil cost per dollar.
I believe what you said about the profits the oil company makes and your breakdown. 8.3 cents gross profit per dollar and 70 cents going for taxes. That leaves 21.7 cents per dollar unaccounted for. Every thing I hear says the owner of the pump only makes a penny or two per gallon. So where does the 21.7 cents go?

Tom

Vic
True, but either way it takes a fertile mind an I AM SURE that there are fables in the other direction. How else do you explain VERY YOUNG, Muslim, Suicide Bombers.

Tax Rates, Productivity and Govt Revenue
The superficial logic that accompanies most comments on the effects of raising or lowering taxes vis-à-vis government revenues is appallingly simplistic and self-serving. It all depends on the status of the tax rates and the state of the economy from which one proposes a change!

One way or the other, taxes require productivity on which to impose those taxes. If nothing were being produced, then even a tax rate of one hundred percent would provide no government revenue. If tax rates were zero, then no amount of productivity would provide any government revenue. Government revenue is the product of the tax rates and the productivity on which those rates are imposed. If an increase in tax rates disproportionately decreases that productivity then government revenue will decrease. If it does not, then that revenue will increase. (All of that quite independent from whether or not it is appropriate to increase government revenue from where it is).

While simple in concept, the interrelationship between taxes and productivity is difficult in practice, Government revenue is not always a net loss to productivity. To the extent that such revenue is used to improve infrastructure, for instance, productivity may well increase. (Even though arguments can be made as to whether or not that improved infrastructure could have been accomplished more economically by other means) Government revenue is a net loss to productivity to the extent that such revenue is used, for instance, to provide for those who have not produced enough for themselves. (Even though arguments can be made that justify it based on non-economic considerations.)

That, essentially, is what the Laffer curve is all about. It is undeniably correct. The only question is where on the curve we are at present and where we will then be following a change in tax rates.

,Libs, Libs Everywhere!
Funny, I really love it when the libs protest so much! It usually means someone is beating one of their sacred cows.
Question: When is a weapon of mass destruction, not a weapon of mass destruction?
Answer: When a liberal is defending his irrational hatred of president Bush!
Nice try fellas, but you know Hawkins is right on!
But keep on reading, you may yet see the error of your ways...

Brooks
Keep slurping your own swill but the statistics do not stack up about taxes.

However if you want to talk about spending then that is legitimate.

Hawkins
Awww.....your such a meanie! Liberals have to tell themselves these lies in order to cope with the world they live in and continue to steal from the uneducated.

BTW...you can indirectly apply the Laffer Curve to business, ask Walmart and Big Oil.

Georgetwin
maybe, but I would not classify them as fables. It's like the difference between a sea-story and a fairy tale. Minor, but neither is a mean thing.

Also, note that the libs are on here now trashing out their lies. They just can't stand it, they will defend these lies to the grave.

Steve
You are no better than Hawkings. You guys react to truth like vampires react to Holy Water.

The issue has never been did Saddam "EVER" have WMD's. We know he did. We helped him use them in the cases you mention. The question is did he have them when we invaded. And that answer is no. Even Hawkins, a dolt if ever there was one, is smart enough to claim Hussein had WMD's when we attacked.

You reference to Sada is largely irrelevant, as no supporting evidence has ever been found and the official reprots on the issue, which considered Sada's claims, indicate exactly that.

And Saddam DID claim, before the invasion, that he had destroyed his WMD's, a fact which the UN inspectors were on the verge of confirming

When something has been demonstrated over and over again, and all the meaningful evidence supports it, then to contend otherwise is beyond mythical, it's a delusion.

Petronius
At least get teh quote right. Clinton said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." But the point is the same. He was trying to obscure a larger truth by relying on the technical accuracy of specific words.

Now, you didn' like it when CLinton did it, Neitehr did I. But you seem to think is OK when Hawkins does it. Why?

One thing that is certain,

oil prices, gas prices and unemployment have soared since the Democrats regained control of Congress. It is obvious whose leadership has been disasterous. For the ignorant or stupid, it is the Democrats who gained control in 2006 just about the time energy prices began to skyrocket.

The only way to reduce

government's size and oppression is to limit its revenues.

big lies
Lie 1. Weapons of mass destruction. You admit they found old ones that probably wouldn't even work. Bush was promoting that they were building them and they had photos to prove it.
Lie 2 Tax cuts lead to more revenue coming in. Well if that is the case we should have enough money to be only 6 trillion in debt rather than the 9 trillion we have.
lie 3. Shinseki was right but he IS gone along with a lot of others who were fed up with Bush administration and retired. But now look who else is gone. Rumsfeld himself.
Lie 3 Cheating is cheating. white wash in Ohio doesn't negate what happened in Florida.
Lie 4. Oil companies are making billions in profits. PLUS they are getting big subsidies from the US government to help them explore and develop more. Just how much do they really need???


MSM is forced to stroke Liberals.
There are even rare Liberals who are able to notice how MSM censors out news Liberals would not like and invent fictional news to make Liberals "Feel Good".
People looking for actual news find other sources and MSM is bleeding audience in an expanding market where they have to gain audience to break even.

This is why;
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=93BF3DE C-77EE-4C83-9234-9F67A2ACBFB5

WMD?
Just one more piece of evidence WMD did exist and were removed during the long prelude to that war.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/29/133526.sht ml

Don't expect Liberals to stop parroting their lie though because lies are all the Liberals have.
Liberals ARE GOVERNMENT BY BUNKO SCAM!

independentthinker
Can you explain your comment above? It appears to be incoherent. You said,

"you others that show you have absolutely no concept of economics:
Clinton claimed surpluses by gutting (stealing the funds from) and decimating the military--one of the few areas where the federal government is supposed to be in control. "

If the federal government controls military spending, as it surely does, in what sense can "gutting" it be a matter of stealing the funds from it? The decimated military proved itself to be quite capable in the two wars it was asked to fight soon after. (The fact that the Iraq war was an inane decision does not undercut the fact that the military proved incredibly capable for acting).

But of course Clinton raised some taxes and cut some spending (he also cut some taxes and raised some spending) and it was largely the tax cuts and reigning in of total spending that led to his surpluses. So what is your point? How does that undercut any economic claim that I or Hal made? Why do you say that Clinton "claimed" surpluses when he actually produced them?

Accountability
Here's what the Bush Administration was saying, in the months leading up to the start of the Iraq War. Judge for yourself:

"Simply stated, THERE IS NO DOUBT that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us." -- Cheney to the VFW

"Facing CLEAR EVIDENCE OF PERIL, we cannot wait for the final proof, the smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud." -- Bush

"My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, SOLID SOURCES. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on SOLID INTELLIGENCE." -- Powell to the UNSC

"Saddam Hussein possesses chemical and biological weapons....It's a danger we cannot ignore." -- Rumsfeld

These statements are all a matter of public record.

If you take America into war based on such claims, and then have those claims turn out to be false--you must be held accountable.

True conservatives, like myself, who truly believe in "limited government," should not give a blank check to any Executive. Not even one we voted for.

lon
It's clever the way you pretend that Saddam didn't mislead the entire world including Democratic leaders that he had WMD and was willing to use them. It's really cute how you then accuse Bush et al of lying when you know darn well that the consensus of the world intelligence community was that Saddam DID have WMD and was willing to use them.

Bush would have been criminally negligent had he not deposed Saddam and thus ensured that we were safe from Saddam's tyranny and extortion.

Independent Thinker
"Reply # 16
...Hal, Lon and,,, you others that show you have absolutely no concept of economics:
Clinton claimed surpluses by gutting (stealing the funds from) and decimating the military--one of the few areas where the federal government is supposed to be in control."

Oh wow they certainly seemed decimated when the Bush Regime used them to roll through Afghanistan and Iraq. Bush continues to use them up until this day. Like so much else you conservatives touch the military now needs to be completely rebuilt and reequipped but I suspect you will whine about paying for that too

Hey SteveL
How come you omitted the fact that your liberal politicians and even the whole world said the same things? Slipped your mind?

SteveL
"My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, SOLID SOURCES. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on SOLID INTELLIGENCE." -- Powell to the UNSC"

I wish to add that Powell said that run up to war is a blot on his career and reputation that can never be removed

"...True conservatives, like myself, who truly believe in "limited government," should not give a blank check to any Executive. Not even one we voted for."

I suspect that you will no be called a RINO you should know that the conservative strong points of accountability and responsibility are now called weaknesses by the "real" conservatives.

Hal The enemy Collaborator.
You Enemy Collaborators are the ones who keep whining about the cost of our military.

Obama will fix that for you right after he surrenders.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/02/interventionism_obam astyle.html

http://www.cnsnews.com/viewpolitics.asp?page=/politics/arch ive/200803/pol20080304d.html

Weak people invited the series of attacks adding up to 9/11 forcing America into this ancient cultural war. Weak people our enemies see as decadent cowards lacking in morals. Weak people who whimper and cry and lack the courage to sustain a prolonged war.

These same weak whimpering people continue to assure our enemies that Americans will soon capitulate.
Our enemies use these public displays of weakness to entice recruits to join their cause and gain favor in the eyes of Allah by helping to cleanse the World of unbelievers.

So you don't like this war with Radical Islam? It costs too much? What price tag do you put on the freedom of your children & grandchildren?
Is this too much?
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=913809C 9-A26E-4E20-AE27-46F92B034739

What alternative do you have to offer Americans?
Allow the Small Satan to fall and surrender the Big Satan?
Surrender and live as slaves in a theological Caliphate under Sharia law?

Steve
"Reply # 2
...It's clever the way you pretend that Saddam didn't mislead the entire world including Democratic leaders that he had WMD and was willing to use them. It's really cute how you then accuse Bush et al of lying when you know darn well that the consensus of the world intelligence community was that Saddam DID have WMD and was willing to use them. "

NO one had enough confidence in the reports Saddam had WMDs to wage war over it precisely because of the caveats in the reports what the Bush Regime did was remove the caveats i.e. deliberately mislead

"Bush would have been criminally negligent had he not deposed Saddam and thus ensured that we were safe from Saddam's tyranny and extortion."

YAWN that is a lie....

Hal:
How's the fanatic lib DEm doing today?

MyOPine and Delusion
I am delighted My Opine has brought up the claim, also by George Sada, that the weapons intended to be used in the 2004 attack on Jordan were Iraqi weapons given to Al Quaeda by Syria.


The materials involved were not weapons. They were raw materials, including a large amount of sulfuric acid. The plotters detailed how they collected the raw materials, which they intended to mix at a location in Jordan.

There were no mysteries in the trial. The motivating force was indeed al Quaeda, but there was NO indication that the materials were weaponized chemicals or that any weapons came from Syria.

I am glad MyOpine brought this up, becuase it shows two things. First, Sada has no credibility. Believing him is like believing "curveball." And second, righties are delusional on this topic.

Steve
Actually I didn't accuse Bush of lying about Hussein having WMDs, although he was clearly deceptive about the issue painting it as both more extreme and more certain than the evidence he had available to him suggested it was. SteveL's quotes are useful in this regard. Note the intelligence agencies were not saying Hussein was any kind of nuclear threat in any short time frame, and yet we were threatened with the specter of mushroom clouds.

It is hard to see how Hussein tricked the world about his having WMDs when he insisted that he didn't have them when he in fact didn't have them. He also let in inspectors who failed to find them, and discovered that the American intelligence supporting them was flawed. So it is odd to blame Hussein for that.

I admit I did expect him to have at least old weapons left over from the '80s, but that was not because Hussein tricked me, but because I did not consider him to be a reliable source.

I never did think Hussein was a threat to use them. After all we fought he once before when he had WMDs and he didn't use them on us or on Israel. In fact he fought us like he was hoping to lose quickly while avoiding losing face.

Bush would not have been criminally negligiable for not protecting us from a non-existent threat with no ability to extort from us. He is also not to blame for not waging war on Mordor because that is also a non-existent threat. And presidents should focus on actual threats, not imaginary ones.

MyOpine
"...Weak people invited the series of attacks adding up to 9/11 forcing America into this ancient cultural war."

Really? You mean a weak president in power almost eight months had nothing at all to do with it? I mean Ashcroft was worried about bare breasts on a statute rather than terrorists

"Weak people our enemies see as decadent cowards lacking in morals. Weak people who whimper and cry and lack the courage to sustain a prolonged war."

There is no need for a prolonged war the terrorists are criminals and nothing new. Why did Bush the torturer and you conservatives panic yourselves into a needless war is a better question

"These same weak whimpering people continue to assure our enemies that Americans will soon capitulate."

They laugh at how ineffective and stupid the US is that will change when the Bush Regime and conservatives are flushed down the toilet of history next election

"Our enemies use these public displays of weakness to entice recruits to join their cause and gain favor in the eyes of Allah by helping to cleanse the World of unbelievers."

LMAO no actually they use US over reaction and stumbling around the ME as recruiting tools. People like you are their best allies

"So you don't like this war with Radical Islam? It costs too much? What price tag do you put on the freedom of your children & grandchildren?
Is this too much?"

There is no war with radical Islam there are criminal terrorists using Islam as justification and a recruiting tool

"What alternative do you have to offer Americans?"

The success of proven tactics used in concert with strong independent allies. Helped us defeat terrorists many times over and defeated the Soviet Union


Steve
The idea that there was an international consensus regarding Saddam is a talking point. The primary intelligence source was the US. We fed other nations the information we wanted to, and then when they parroted it back, we claimed they were confirming our information.

This is exactly the same technique the administration used with the New York Times. They would plant a stroy with Judith Miller and then, when it was publcished, claim that teh New York Times actually confirmed thier position.

And that's not tomention that othe rintel agencies, specifically the Germans, told us NOT to trust the informer relied upon by the administration.

And finally, this will all come out shortly after the end of Bush's presidency, when Colin Powell feels free to tell American his side of the story.

Lumberjack7392
"Date: Jun 20, 2008 - 1:32 PM EST Subject: Hal:
How's the fanatic lib DEm doing today? "

This moderate Democrat is just fine and dandy this Fridayy afternoon I hope you are well

Hal The Communist LIAR!
Since you bring up the subject of credibility Hal;

Clarify your statement that BOTH Israeli and Palestinian soldiers, (plural), broke under combat stress and came to cry in your arms?
We have many veterans here that will find that LIE amusing.

Explain how you WERE an NRA member and are totally ignorant of NRA political policy?

Explain how you determined most NRA members shirked military service by asking for a show of hands while you were speaking at an NRA Banquet?

Then tell us why we should believe an ENEMY COLLABORATOR like you after we have caught you in nearly as many lies as Wobbie.

Hal:
Main Entry: fa?nat?ic
Pronunciation: \f?-'na-tik\
Variant(s): or fa?nat?i?cal \-ti-k?l\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin fanaticus inspired by a deity, frenzied, from fanum temple ? more at feast
Date: 1550
: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion

Source: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary.

noun (plural fa?nat?ics)

Definition:

1. extremist: a holder of extreme or irrational enthusiasms or beliefs, especially in religion or politics

Source:Encarta? World English Dictionary

Noun 1. fanatic - a person motivated by irrational enthusiasm (as for a cause); "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"--Winston Churchill

Collins Essential English Dictionary

I'd say the above definitions, especially Chuchill's, fit you on your devotion to two of the most liberal Senators, and their policies, and the left wing policies of the party to a T.

Hal The enemy Collaborator.
Your stream of LIES in post #68 do not cover the fact that you are trying to promote propaganda on behalf of America's enemies.

The WORLD WIDE CARNATION cause by our enemy proves you a cowardly liar!

Failure to answer this question labels you an Enemy Collaborator.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?
As the Progressive you are RIGHT NOW, not assuming other form or hypothetical pretense.
Can you think of anything you have not done already?

MyOpine
"...Clarify your statement that BOTH Israeli and Palestinian soldiers, (plural), broke under combat stress and came to cry in your arms?"

I said an Israeli soldier I said nothing about a Palestinian soldier the uniform I was wearing would hardly allow that to happen LOL

"...Explain how you WERE an NRA member and are totally ignorant of NRA political policy?"

I told that before I left the NRA when they became an extremist organization in the late 60s early 70s

"Explain how you determined most NRA members shirked military service by asking for a show of hands while you were speaking at an NRA Banquet?"

Did you ask for a show of hands at your last NRA dinner? Try it

"Then tell us why we should believe an ENEMY COLLABORATOR like you after we have caught you in nearly as many lies as Wobbie. "

YOu know I never lie

Hal Donahue
What "strong, independent allies" do you suggest are going to help us in the war against terrorists? The Europeans? HAH! The Anglo Europeans are already well on their way to accepting dhimmitude as their future; the riots in France a couple of years ago showed that the European governments are terrified of the Islamic faction of their population. The Russians? The Chinese?

You also still refuse to acknowledge the fact that terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda and Hezbollah and Hamas have become what they are because of major assistance - not the least of which is sanctuary - from governments. You yourself admitted to me not long ago that without the protection and support Al Qaeda got from the government of Afghanistan, pulling off 9/11 would have been, in your own words, "much more difficult". If terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas and Al Qaeda were basically latter-day free-lance Carlos the Jackals, I might agree with you - but where would Hamas and Hezbollah be right now without the kind of support they're getting from governments like those of Iran and Syria?

I know you have nothing but contempt for Benjamin Netanyahu, but very shortly after 9/11, I thought he stated, on an American political talk show, what still remains to me as the definitive words on how we should be fighting terrorism from that point on. He said that maybe the individual terrorists themselves are perfectly willing to die, but the people WHO ARE SENDING THEM OUT very much want to LIVE - and therefore, THESE are the people you take the war to. Those "who are sending them out" include the heads of governments. Let those who have something very real to lose be confronted with the very real prospect of losing it if they continue to support terrorism, and they'll cut off their support to terrorists, and the terrorist groups will die on the vine.

My Opine
World Wide Carnation

Carnation?

Oh man, I spit when I read that one.

Lumberjack7392
"... "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"--Winston Churchill"

"...I'd say the above definitions, especially Chuchill's, fit you on your devotion to two of the most liberal Senators, and their policies, and the left wing policies of the party to a T."

See here you go again. This isn't about left/right this election is about competence versus incompetence so put away those tired old extreme conservative labels

Hal The Communist LIAR!
We will start with one of you dumbest lies Hal

"I told that before I left the NRA when they became an extremist organization in the late 60s early 70s"

Please give an example of the NRA being "extremist"?

YOU ARE A COWARDLY LIAR HAL YOU WERE NEVER IN THE NRA!

Hal Donahue Scribbles:
See here you go again. This isn't about left/right this election is about competence versus incompetence so put away those tired old extreme conservative labels

And how often have you said that?

BTW, Besides reading a teleprompter what competencies does Obama have?

You are a fanatic. I mean you haven't disagreed substantively with party policies in over 6 years. That fills the definition "is marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion."


Standshisground
"...What "strong, independent allies" do you suggest are going to help us in the war against terrorists? The Europeans? HAH! The Anglo Europeans are already well on their way to accepting dhimmitude as their future; the riots in France a couple of years ago showed that the European governments are terrified of the Islamic faction of their population."

See here is exactly where you Conservatives go so wrong. European governments live in fear of the people but for some reason I cannot figure out Conservatives in the US live in fear of the government. As a moderate I have little fear of the government - it can be changed

"The Russians? The Chinese?"

Remember after 9/11 how nearly every nation in the owrld supported us. The Bush regime squandered that by ignoring the allies and marching into the Iraq sandbox. The old position can be restored with time and a lot of work.


Jack
From scanning your incoherent posts I assumed you were ignorant of the scope of this war.
This war has also hit England, Belgium, Holland, France, Spain, Philippians, and most of Africa.
A sample;
http://www.omedia.org/Show_Article.asp?DynamicContentID=204 8&MenuID=603&ThreadID=1014010

Myths of truth as John Tells it
Myth #1, No weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq: John reports that Sen. Rick Santorum says 500 WMD where found. if that is true, when, where and what types where found. This should be general public knowledge? NO a secret then, wow no wonder it is a Myth.
Myth #2, Tax cuts lead to revenue drops for the federal government: John sites archaic and self serving employment figures that do not reflect the lose of higher paying skilled jobs by their replacement to lower paying meanial jobs.
Nor does it reflect those that retired or just dropped of the screen entirely.
Myth #3, After General Eric Shinseki said we would need 500,000 troops to handle post-war Iraq, he was fired: John counters with Gen. Shinseki was schedule to retire in six months anyway, and that only 2 Generals have served for more than 4 years. Why, they certainly could have if the President had a say in it. But since he was against the policy why keep him on hand, we really do not need a nay sayer in the group. Right all you yes men out there.
See these are the types of myths that a bad administration wants you to believe exsists. It serves their egos better, than being just bad at the job.
I am still awaiting the valid proof in detailed pictures, quanities and qualities of weapons, that fall into the list of WMD's. None yet to be brought forth and to just take a persons word that it is so, just goes only so far when he has been proven to lie.
The tax cuts implammented by Kennedy & Reagan, had positive effects on the economy as a whole. So far the economy has just dropped and dropped under this one. Why? Greed mostly and to the wrong people.
And as for General Shinseki, well he was not a man to say yes all the time. And hisremark was on keepin Iraq free from violence once the war was over. Not fight it. Gen. Franks never believed only 140,00 men could hold all Iraq. But the White house said he did.

Standshisground
"You also still refuse ....not the least of which is sanctuary - from governments. "

You make a major error grouping the likes of Al Q with the Hezzis and Hamas. Al Q is a straight up criminal terrorist group. Those are much easier to combat especially if we regain the moral high ground. Hezzie and Hamas are government organizations based upon fighting for freedom along the same lines as the old IRA. Different actions and much more difficult to defeat

"You yourself admitted to me not long ago that without the protection and support Al Qaeda got from the government of Afghanistan, pulling off 9/11 would have been, in your own words, "much more difficult"."

true

"...- but where would Hamas and Hezbollah be right now without the kind of support they're getting from governments like those of Iran and Syria?"

in trouble I can remember being assigned to British Military and my kids needing bomb dogs to get on school buses all the while an IRA fund raiser was working in my own hometown in the US. But Al Q has nothing in common with the H's

"...what still remains to me as the definitive words...THESE are the people you take the war to."

Netanyahu and the Israeli's approach failed do we want to follow them into the debacle.

" Those "who are sending them out" include the heads of governments. ...cut off their support to terrorists, and the terrorist groups will die on the vine. "

Again has it worked for Israel? Their military was defeated twice in Lebanon by Hezbolla. The country cannot survive without outside aid from the US.... If you want to defeat terrorist you must take away their support and the reasons for it. Unrestricted Israeli violence has only intensified the "freedom fighters" opposing them. Do not forget the Israeli Army was fought to a standstill fighting toe to toe with Hezbollah

Vic
Possibly, but I’ll bet my dollar to your dime that there are NEGATIVE Fables in some cultures.

BTW, it was Pinocchio’s nose that grew when he lied. With Liberals it appears to be their waistline: Al Bore, Rosie O’Dimwit, Madeline Halfwit, Hal Drunkahue, etc.

Lumberjack7392
"...And how often have you said that? "

Lots I hope I was the one who wrote it

"BTW, Besides reading a teleprompter what competencies does Obama have?"

His MAJOR claim to fame is bringing a completely fresh look to government ala' 1932.

"You are a fanatic. ... often intense uncritical devotion."

Oh I am very critical and even occasionally get to affect change. In some very small way I helped the Democratic Party become more military and veteran friendly and supportive. Not so much to elect Ds but to help military and veterans. It isn't about wearing ribbons and flags it is about helping the troops and veterans. Like the new GI Bill that just passed

Hal Donahue
"European governments live in fear of the people", huh? Bet those European governments don't live in fear of the NON-ISLAMIC portion of their people. The fact is, European governments live in fear of only a PORTION of their people - the Islamic portion.

When you say, after 9/11, "nearly every nation in the world supported us" - well, the rest of the world was happy to shed crocodile tears for us over that event. Just like the rest of the world "supported" Israel after the Munich Olympic massacre in 1972: they were happy to shed crocodile tears for the slain Israelis, and STILL shed crocodile tears to this day over innocent Israelis murdered by terrorists. Once Israel decides to fight back, its "support" evaporates into thin air. The world is delighted to grieve with victims - JUST AS LONG AS THEY'RE CONTENT TO REMAIN VICTIMS! Once they show they're no longer content to remain victims, their "supporters" are nowhere to be found; those "supporters" move on to the NEXT group of victims.

You liberals ought to understand this principle better than anyone: you've adopted supposedly poor, oppressed, vulnerable American blacks and promise them all kinds of support - and as long as they're content to remain poor and vulnerable, they're your darlings. Let them become successful and actually have the cheek to believe they can take their own destinies into their own hands without your "support", however - like Clarence Thomas, Larry Elder, Thomas Sowell, etc. - and you turn on them.

My Opine
You write: "From scanning your incoherent posts I assumed you were ignorant of the scope of this war."

From reading yours I assume you are ignorant of the difference between bloodshed and a potted plant.

Nonetheless, Both G. Sada and the newsmax article you referenced are contradicted by the published facts.

folks
"Our hard work in fighting for the new GI Bill continues to pay off. The White House and members of Congress put aside their differences to come together and show real support for our troops. This fight will be remembered as a great example of Washington choosing patriotism over partisanship."

from IAVA

Jack and Hal
Gee whiz... You guys must think Bush is a genious! He fooled the entire world including all the Democratic leadership and his own CIA into agreeing with him that Saddam had WMD. Wow! ;))))

You both discount that Saddam told his interrogator that he purposely misled the world into believing that he still had WMD in order to disuade potential attackers. He miscalculated.

You both discount the fact that Saddam played cat and mouse with the inspectors for 10 years and attacked our planes in the no-fly zone frequently.

The ONLY way to verify that he was not producing WMD was to depose him. Saddam created the doubt by bluffing. He paid the price. The inspectors were an exercise in futility.

Saddam thought he could wait out the short attention span of the American people and Europe. Saddam thought that after our interest subsided he could reconstitute his WMD programs.

Saddam thought he could bribe France, Russia, Germany and China to block any military action.

Pres. George W. Bush saved us from that reality and having to go back later on when Saddam would have been much more deadly.

Thank you, Pres. Bush!

"Starve the Beast"
Who here thinks that cutting taxes is a good idea because cutting taxes will "starve the beast" and thus force government to spend less?

Don't be shy -- speak up. Who here thinks that?

Myths Vs truth By john
Part II: Myth #4; George Bush stole the 2004 election by cheating in Ohio: as John tells it, We in Ohio who voted Republican, where just as astounded, when it was announced He had won the State. Especially after the 2000 debackle, over chits and chads. We as a party should have said revote to be fair, but we did not. And won the 2000 election under a cloud of distain and dark suspicious coverup. Amaseing how fast the Rep. Atterney General did not lasted after that.
Myth #5 Oil companies gouge consumers to make outsized profits: As John, Oh heck when did you buy gas last idiot. Ask anyone who has if they feel cheated by big oil. Not that its wrong marketedly but morally.
Myth #6: And John threw this one in. Can Karl Rowe tell the truth about anyting or one: Well yes he can, if they work for the CIA and do not approve of this administrations lies.
I do not want to say the man is a liar, but I would not want him to keep any deep secrets of national importance to America Secret. I mean a person that blows a members cover is a traitor in my book. But many of you readers are with him and I stand in a den of thieves. Shame on you and you call yourselves Americans.

Jack
You Communists have such bad credibility here.
Please post links you verify your conjecture.
I am already busy trying to get HalD to confess he lied about being an NRA member.

Like for instance;
If I was to state that Democrat leadership procures children for Pedophiles, I would post;
http://hollycrud.com/2006/10/nancy-girl-wants-old-gays-with -young.html

Hal Donahue
What "freedom" is Hezbollah fighting for? Last I knew, no foreign power is occupying Lebanon - except possibly Syria, still. Also, Israel withdrew from Gaza over two years ago, so the Gazans are now free of Israel governance: if they weren't, who put Hamas in charge in Gaza - Israel?

And as far as the Israeli government's approach to fighting terrorism: I argue that Israel's effort has failed because it hasn't gone FAR ENOUGH. Israel has never confronted strongly enough the REAL power behind Hezbollah: Syria. If Israel made it clear to Bashir Assad, and gives him very credible reason to believe it's serious about what it says, that his OWN life will be at severe risk if he continues his support of Hezbollah, he will back off. Just like when Assad's father Hafez was threatened by Turkey with war if he didn't immediately desist in supporting an insurgent group that was killing people in Turkey - and Hafez immediately capitulated. I've already stated - a policy you vehemently disagree with - what Israel should do to stop rockets from coming over from Gaza onto Israel: cut off ALL of the food, water, electricity, and gas that Gaza gets from Israel (which is almost ALL of their supplies of these commodities). It may not stop the rockets RIGHT AWAY - anymore than the Union blockade of the South during the Civil War immediately ended the war - but give it time, and it will, just as surely as the Union's blockade in time starved the South of its ability to continue its rebellion.

Hal The Communist LIAR!
RESPOND!
I AM CALLING YOU ON THIS LIE!

"I told that before I left the NRA when they became an extremist organization in the late 60s early 70s"

I think this is another of your lies. I doubt you were ever in the NRA.
You are ignorant of NRA politics.
Show some examples of NRA extremism.

Well, the NRA has guns...
Oh My, We are toast, citizens have guns and Libs are afraid someone is going to use them...

Get a clue Libs, you will NEVER succeed in taking our GUNS! ...and you can take that to your crooked banker and deposit it.

This a neat story about how the lies get told and retold and the morons of our society just keep sucking it up.

Maybe it's time to stop trying to counter the lies...maybe we need to contribute to them and thereby make then so stupid and implauseable that even a moron will get a clue.

Hmmm, Hang all the Lawyers maybe should be Hang all the Journalists!

WMD Kool-aide drinkers
Man, those Neo-Coms really cling to their delusions and lies as tightly as they can.

They say, "There were NO WMDs," when they think they can get away with an unchallenged sound-bite.

Then when you show them actual statistics, they claim, "Bush admitted there were no WMDs!" and hope you'll stop scrutinizing the issue.

Then you quote them the exact text, and point out that the actual statements were that there were no "active stockpiles" of WMD but that non-stockpiled WMD were recovered, they back-pedal EVEN MORE and claim that those weapons aren't really a threat anymore.

Sure, old containers of Mustard Gas aren't a big threat to our Army. Terrorists, however, seldom ever have arsenals that actually threaten armies. That's why they take small quantities of explosives and chemical or biological agents and direct them against Civilian Population Centers.

Hussein's military was never a threat to the U.S. in direct war. He couldn't launch missiles at our cities. The threat was ALWAYS that he could supply and support TERRORIST 3rd Parties to attack us and our allies by proxy. The WMDs that he BROKE THE CEASEFIRE by refusing to ~ verifiably ~ destroy under U.N. supervision could certainly do the job.

Oh, and the Neo-Coms also desperately hope you won't bring up the Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Center and the fact that Saddam Hussein drove out the people responsible for verifying that no one tampered with the sealed nuclear materials there. They want you to ignore the idiocy involved in taking Hussein AT HIS WORD that the radiological materials therein (perfect for dirty bomb construction) were safe and sound. That site was one of the first major zones secured by Coalition Forces when Saddam was deposed with GOOD REASON.

Brooks5000
I get the impression lower taxes keep more money in circulation thus raising employment and increasing the tax base.

Nope! Don't think that will "Starve the beast"

I think a Nation Wide strike like they use in Europe & Japan would give the "beast" a good swift kick in the rump though!

What is Dhimmetude?????
Standshisground
Location: MO
Reply # 75
Date: Jun 20, 2008 - 2:11 PM EST Hal Donahue
What "strong, independent allies" do you suggest are going to help us in the war against terrorists? The Europeans? HAH! The Anglo Europeans are already well on their way to accepting dhimmitude as their future;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
Sounds like Stalingrad, yuk what a cold place that is in winter. LOL
As a well aurgued conservitive, you must really be at odds with the defenition of the word. I mean `One that conserves' hardly fits this administration or its supporters. I find it hard to believe you've ever conserved anything except on your education and spelling.
Well that is okay, I conserved on my spelling also, damn French Frog words anyway.
You probably call Hal and I liberals, because we want to conserve the RNC/GOP, We want to conserve our resources and PRESERVE our nation, instead of one mans ego, or one corperations greed.
I would have to say, according to the deffining of the word, we are more conservative on the issues than you and your ranting allies out there.
Do any of you really have a conservative thought amongest you. No well that is alright.
You continue to believe that big oil loves you and will lower prices once thety gewt free oil from you. Continue to believe that the war in Iraq was fought for your freedom and against terrorist.
Continue thinking and actually one day you will have a thought.

Steve
"Gee whiz... You guys must think Bush is a genious! etc"

Actually it didn't take any genius, just chutzpah. Being the President of the USA tends to give you some credibility, or at least it used to.

"You both discount that Saddam told his interrogator that he purposely misled the world into believing that he still had WMD in order to disuade potential attackers. He miscalculated."

And you discount the time frames. He did at one point try to fool everyone, and later, before the war, he stopped.

"You both discount the fact that Saddam played cat and mouse with the inspectors for 10 years and attacked our planes in the no-fly zone frequently."

CHeck your facts. He did not attack our planes: he painted them with radar and this was presented by the administration as an attack. In fact, both US and British planes violated Iraqi airspace in an effort to draw Iraqi fire. They did not succeed. The Brits admit to this. Furthermore, the inspectors on the ground stated that they had the capacity to definitively answer the WMD question. Bush attacked before they could complete their task. (And Hand Blix was summarily smeared by right wingers)

"The ONLY way to verify that he was not producing WMD was to depose him."

This is not true. Blix clearly stated he could make a final determination.

"Saddam created the doubt by bluffing. He paid the price. The inspectors were an exercise in futility."

No they were not. One can tell by the fact that the inspectors were right and Bush was wrong. How could their work be futile?

The Bush administration wanted to attack Iraq from the start of thier time in office. Former cabinet members, Bush staffers, and writers with a great deal of access all agree on this. The only people who can't face facts are the few delusional right wingers who blindly support this loser.




NRA and Liberals
MyOpine
Location: CA
Reply # 97
Date: Jun 20, 2008 - 3:18 PM EST
Wow, how can you be so funny in one post and so nieve in another. I mean a national strike in the US. Wow that hasn't been done since the Teamsters strike in 1970 and the RailRoad Union strike in the thirty's. But remember both are now former shells of them selves. Our Government of the Free for the Free does not like National Strikes and do not find them funny one bit.
An now about the NRA, just because a liberal thinks of others does not mean he isn'y packin heat under his sport coat.
While I find joining clubs to safe guard my right to bare arms foolish, they also leave a trail for the feds to follow.
Be quite and just buy your guns and keep them out of sight. Remember rotate your ammo and fire off a few thousand rounds a year, Helps keep people working.

Standshisground
"What "freedom" is Hezbollah fighting for? Last I knew, no foreign power is occupying Lebanon - except possibly Syria, still."

Free Palistine and now after defeating Israel in the latest invasion I guess they added Lebanon since they have veto power now.

" Also, Israel withdrew from Gaza over two years ago, so the Gazans are now free of Israel governance: if they weren't, who put Hamas in charge in Gaza - Israel?"

Israel never stopped attacking did they? Bombing and entry by force. Until now they pledged a cease fire - doubt that will hold

"... Israel has never confronted strongly enough the REAL power behind Hezbollah: Syria. If Israel made it clear to Bashir Assad,....,- a...cut off ALL of the food, water, electricity, and gas that Gaza gets from Israel (which is almost ALL of their supplies of these commodities)."

In my opinion your recommended actions would mean the end of Israel. What you are really advocating is genocide I don't think even the US would side with Israel then or am I missing something. By the way just so you know, I don't support the Palistinans either from what I have seen over the past nearly thirty years my attitude is a pox on both their houses

Ask No Questions
In every large population approximately 25% of the people will have an authoritarian personality. One feature of this type is their ability to believe two opposing points of view to be true which directly contradict one another. Hawkins models this trait perfectly. To say that "No WMDs in Iraq" is a liberal myth says more about the commentor than those he criticizes.
On Oct 6, 2004 the Iraq Study Group announced that Saddam Hussein poessessed no weapons of mass destruction and had abandoned the program in 1991 when UN sanctions were imposed. This is neither an liberal nor a conservative opinion, it is a statement of fact.
There are plenty of issues to debate against the Democrats. This WMD story is so wornout that only a few quacks like Hawkins still believe it. His other 4 points are equally moronic. These people have already brought the Republican Party to it's knees. It is time to move on to fact-based debates that we can win.

Bucher
RE:#100
That kind of post is called;
"VERBAL MASTURBATION"

Sort of runaway conjecture to make you "Feel Good"
Please address it to other Communists.

Hal The Communist LIAR!
You often compound your lies Hal. Lets see what you can do with this one!

"I told that before I left the NRA when they became an extremist organization in the late 60s early 70s"

I think this is another of your lies. I doubt you were ever in the NRA.
You are ignorant of NRA politics.
Show some examples of NRA extremism.

MyOpine
"..."I told that before I left the NRA when they became an extremist organization in the late 60s early 70s"

I think this is another of your lies. I doubt you were ever in the NRA."

I told you I don't lie. Opposing EVERY effort to restrict fire arms and ammunition makes it extremist

"You are ignorant of NRA politics. "
Sure I am

Hal Donahue
I don't see an Israeli cut-off of all the commodities Gaza depends on from Israel if the people of Gaza want to continue to make war on Israel as being genocide. Why should ANY sovereign nation continue to supply a territory in active armed conflict with it? That's nuts. All Israel would be doing is bringing home to the Palestinians in Gaza the full price it will pay if it wants to continue to engage in armed conflict - just like we did with Nazi Germany and Japan in WW2. Our actions made it clear to both nations that if they still wanted there to be something left of their nations to save, they'd better desist from their armed conflict. As Middle East scholar Daniel Pipes has said, wars end when at least one party to the conflict gives up or is forced to give up its objectives vis a vis the other. If the people of Gaza won't voluntarily give up their objectives of driving Israel's people into the sea, Israel must FORCE them to - just like EVERY successful war-fighting nation does with the enemy it ultimates vanquishes.

Unfortunately, though, you're right: the U.S. WON'T side with Israel in such a policy even though it makes total military sense. Which is one of the major aggravations I have with George W. Bush. He reserved the right to topple TWO governments over a terrorist attack - but won't grant to Israel the same right of self-defense of its citizens that he feels free to exercise for OURS. This is double-mindedness - the same kind of double-mindedness that we conservatives expected better than from George Bush.

StandsHisGround
Your perception of how to resolve the Palestinian Israeli conflict is absurd. Starving thousands of women and children to death won't give Israel anymroe security than it has now. It will however, tip the balance toward the extremists in such critical states as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

I say establish a Paletinian state now. Overnight. Just create it in Gaza and the West bank. Take that issue away. Then, if attacks come from Gaza, they are considered acts of war, not terrorism.


On WMDs
O.k., the contention from Hawkins et al is that the 500 (old and useless) weapons that Santorum referred to justified our invasion of Iraq?

Is that right?

Are you trying to tell me that we've wasted trillions of dollars, thousands of lives and the credibility of this country . . .

over 500 unusable weapons?!?

Does anyone seriously think that Santorum's Geraldo Rivera Capone Vaultesque find was worth this war?

Seriously?

DoD debunked Santorum's WMD claim
Do you people ever read newspapers?

"Sen. Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania and Rep. Peter Hoekstra of Michigan on Wednesday pointed to a newly declassified report that says coalition forces have found 500 munitions in Iraq that contained degraded sarin or mustard nerve agents.

They cited the report in an attempt to counter criticism by Democrats who say the decision to go to war was a mistake.

But defense officials said Thursday that the weapons were not considered likely to be dangerous because of their age, which they determined to be pre-1991.

Pentagon officials told NBC News that the munitions are the same kind of ordnance the U.S. military has been gathering in Iraq for the past several years, and "not the WMD we were looking for when we went in this time."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13480264/

More News Debunking Santorum
Lawmakers Cite Weapons Found in Iraq
Washington Post
Thursday, June 22, 2006; Page A10

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/0 6/21/AR2006062101837.html

The U.S. military announced in 2004 in Iraq that several crates of the old shells had been uncovered and that they contained a blister agent that was no longer active. Neither the military nor the White House nor the CIA considered the shells to be evidence of what was alleged by the Bush administration to be a current Iraqi program to make chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

Last night, intelligence officials reaffirmed that the shells were old and were not the suspected weapons of mass destruction sought in Iraq after the 2003 invasion.

Standshisground
"I don't see an Israeli cut-off of all the commodities Gaza depends on from Israel if the people of Gaza want to continue to make war on Israel as being genocide. Why should ANY sovereign nation continue to supply a territory in active armed conflict with it? That's nuts."

Then you are willing to watch all the women and children starve to death or will you ensure no press gets in or out?

"All Israel would be doing is bringing home to the Palestinians in Gaza the full price it will pay if it wants to continue to engage in armed conflict - just like we did with Nazi Germany and Japan in WW2."

Gaza is part of Israel as I recall so a better analogy would be the German's handling of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising

"Our actions made it clear to both nations that if they still wanted there to be something left of their nations to save, they'd better desist from their armed conflict."

so you are saying Palistine is a nation???? Yes or no????

"As Middle East scholar Daniel Pipes has said, wars end when at least one party to the conflict gives up or is forced to give up its objectives vis a vis the other."

Pipes is a certified bigot that even Bush now disowns but that aside he is wrong in that when an opponant is willing to die genocide is the only answer according to his view as you state it above

"If the people of Gaza won't voluntarily give up their objectives of driving Israel's people into the sea, Israel must FORCE them to - just like EVERY successful war-fighting nation does with the enemy it ultimates vanquishes."

see above but according to Israel these people are part of Israel...

"Unfortunately, though, you're right: the U.S. WON'T side with Israel in such a policy even though it makes total military sense."

Is Gaza independent? Did I miss something? Militarily Israel just was badly defeated in Lebanon so attacking Syria doesn't seem feasible either


Bush officials committed war crimes

General who probed Abu Ghraib says Bush officials committed war crimes
Will the Dems do anything?

MCC-The Army general who led the investigation into prisoner abuse at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison accused the Bush administration Wednesday of committing “war crimes” and called for those responsible to be held to account.

The remarks by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who’s now retired, came in a new report that found that U.S. personnel tortured and abused detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, using beatings, electrical shocks, sexual humiliation and other cruel practices.

“After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes,” Taguba wrote. “The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”

Taguba, whose 2004 investigation documented chilling abuses at Abu Ghraib, is thought to be the most senior official to have accused the administration of war crimes. “The commander in chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture,” he wrote.

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/general-who-probed -abu-ghraib-says-bush-officials-committed-war-crimes

Hal The Communist LIAR!
YOU LIED AGAIN HAL;

"Opposing EVERY effort to restrict fire arms and ammunition makes it extremist."

The NRA does not oppose all firearms laws or munitions laws. The NRA often endorses and supports firearms laws.
If you had ever been an NRA member you would know this.
YOU ARE A LYING FAKE.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I told that before I left the NRA when they became an extremist organization in the late 60s early 70s"

I think this is another of your lies. I doubt you were ever in the NRA.
You are ignorant of NRA politics.
Show some examples of NRA extremism.
YOUR LIE WON'T GO AWAY HAL!

John Konop
"Date: Jun 20, 2008 - 4:19 PM EST Bush officials committed war crimes

General who probed Abu Ghraib says Bush officials committed war crimes
Will the Dems do anything?"

I hope not. I want Bush twisting slowly in the wind until he leaves office then I want him in the Hague with charges for crimes against humanity brought against him and his regime. He admitted approving the waterboarding of at least three individuals and the regime admits over 30 individuals died undergoing "enhanced interrogations" - those deaths are enough

MyOpine
"I think this is another of your lies. I doubt you were ever in the NRA.
You are ignorant of NRA politics.
Show some examples of NRA extremism.
YOUR LIE WON'T GO AWAY HAL! "

Not a lie LOL but believe what you want

Hal -- Gaza
You are correct in your estimation of StandHis Ground's position on Gaza. He writes as if there were already a APlestinian nation.

That's why I say create one, and create one now.

Once there is a Palestine, that nation will have to decide whether or not to act like an indpendent, functioning state. By keeping the Palestinians effectively powerless, the world prevents them from assuming their rights and responsibilities as a nation, leaving only chaos and terrorism.

It also opens the door for Israel to legitimately declare war on Palestine as a result of either Palestinian behavior or rhetoric.

No WMD's?
Please spare me. If you had taken the time to read the Duelfer report you would have found support for Hawkin's statement on WMD's.

1- Saddam never abandoned his intentions to resume a CW effort when sanctions were lifted and conditions
were judged favorable:

2-While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq
unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991.

3-ISG uncovered information that the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) maintained throughout 1991 to 2003
a set of undeclared covert laboratories to research and test various chemicals and poisons, primarily for
intelligence operations.

And let's not forget the NY times revelation that "Among the dozens of documents in English were Iraqi reports written in the 1990s and in 2002 for United Nations inspectors in charge of making sure Iraq had abandoned its unconventional arms programs after the Persian Gulf war. Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein’s scientists were on the verge of building an atom bomb, as little as a year away."


Hal:
You can say whatever you like. You are a Democratic Party fanatic. What are you going to do when they throw the veterans and miltary under the bus when they are no longer needed for political cover< And that will happen Jan 20 at 12:01 p.m. if Obama wins. Your party has hated with an undying passion the miltary for 35 years. A couple of years of window dressing won't change that. Your party lives on the money of anti-military persons abd organizations.

BTW, your reply tells me that in every other area Obama is an incompetent boob.

Hal:
Tell me something if FDR's fresh look was so great why was the economy in worse shape in 1936 than in 1932?

Hal The enemy Collaborator.
You claim to be familiar with International Humanitarian Law.
AFTER you acquaint yourself with Art. 2;

Please show me where Bush is a war criminal?
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebPrint/195-FULL?OpenDocument

As to liars & fakes like you & Kerry constantly screaming torture;
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/john-kerry-gained-fame-t hanks-to-phony-soldiers

And liars like Haditha Jack Murtha concocting fake atrocities;
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=5509FEE E-FCFE-4926-8C62-AB8EA4B124FB

It would be impossible to convict anyone of a war crime today.

Treason is another matter though;
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself.
For the traitor appears not a traitor - he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their garments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear."
Marcus Tullius Cicero, 42 BC

Orphan
Interesting stuff.

The contention is that Saddam did not have WMD's. You disagree. Your first reponse is that he didn't have WMD's, but still had hopes of developing some. So the fact that he didn't have WMD's is somehow evidence that he DID have WMD's?

Then you point out that "ISG judges that Iraq
unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991." So the fact that he destroyed WMD's in 1991 is evidence that he had WMD's?

Then you say: "ISG uncovered information that the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) maintained throughout 1991 to 2003 a set of undeclared covert laboratories to research and test various chemicals and poisons, primarily for
intelligence operations."

SO the fact that he was testing chemical and posion for intelligence work, i.e. very small scale, covert uses means he had WMD's?

And finally, you quote the Times as follows "Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein’s scientists were on the verge of building an atom bomb, as little as a year away."

Unfortunately, you neglect to mention that this tidbit refers to 1991. SO the Iraqi admission that they were building a bomb in 1991 somehow means they had WMD's in 2003?

You are funny.





Your secodn poitn is that

standhisground & steve in AZ
You've both done a good job of standing your ground today in the face of a whole lot of idiocy. Well done.
Stand, I saw no takers to either of our questions for liberals. I wonder why?

Jack
Funny?

You self appointed WMD Experts who would not know Fosgene from Flatulence are the comics here.

You all seem to have convenient memories also.
Do you remember during the early part of the war how our troops found a partly dismantled Chemical Factory North of Baghdad?
(Still under Saddam's military guard!)

And the disguised truck with equipment for loading Chemical Munitions?

Are you aware Chemical Munitions are costly and dangerous to store but can be swiftly manufactured?

Are you aware the ingredients for CB Munitions are so common you can walk into the local Wal*Mart and purchase "over the counter" the ingredients to manufacture military grade War Gas?

Can you see why it might be difficult to find WMD?

If police spent ten months warning a drug dealer there was going to be a raid do you think they would find drugs?

Hawkins does prove one thing for sure...
Americans are surely not in need of more food....

Dude, it's called a treadmill.

HalDrukenhue
In your comment #106 you actually used the White House to prove something you said? ROFLMAO Hal baby. I have read your BDS crap fpr I don't know how long now where you blast each and everything the administration says or does as being in error or being a lie. Now today you want to stand there with your little chicken chest puffed out using them to validate your position? Based on everything you've ever said before they have to be lying. Of course like all dimbots since it fits your agenda none of your previous statements matter right Hallie? It's like we weren't even here. LMAO,LMAO,LMAO! Chump!

MyOpine - Communism
Calling Hal a communist is a little bit outdated. Not even Russian is communist anymore and Cuba's Castro is ready to checkout. You may want to try calling him a Gaulist. It's is very French and implies a degree of sophistication that you are currently lacking and may add to the power of your arguments.
Also, there is still a lot of unexploded ordinance in North France left over from WWI. Are we to assume that farmers in France are planning to invade Germany? Whose side should we be on?

lightning_fast_Draw
When you parrot that stale Communist ploy about Communism being dead, then spout Communist cliché & rhetoric I understand what you intend to tell us but do you understand what you actually do tell us?
You are actually telling us you are a Communist but want to lie and say you are not and you are so naive you think you can get away with it.
So you see, I am not calling you a Communist, a liar and a fool. You did it all by yourself!

As to you silly verbal masturbation about munitions from WW1 in France?
DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD TO VERBALLY MASTURBATE IN PUBLIC?

lightning_fast_Draw
Just so you know WE KNOW!

These are YOUR ELECTED leaders. (RIGHT NOW!)
http://www.worlsdnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=2 9612

(This is their Progressive Site)
http://cpc.lee.house.gov/index.cfm?ContentID=166&ParentID=0 &SectionID=4&SectionTree=4&Ink=b&ItemID=164

This is the Progressive Agenda. (Posted on their own Progressive Site)
http://web.archive.org/web/20020215003619/www.dsausa.org/pc /pc.progag.html

This is how Progressives intend to achieve their Agenda.
Communist Goals-- Congressional Record- Appendix, pp. A34-A35
http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

Take note #17 has already been accomplished! Our schools are now dumbed down indoctrination centers.
http://www.anxietycenter.com/subversion.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda.
Soften the curriculum. Get control of teacher's associations. Put party line in textbooks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The knowledge of the people is what makes a society what it is.
Detracting from that knowledge damages our entire society by making us less affluent.

People are what they know. Each thing you learn becomes a part of you and makes you proportionately more than you were before. Your possibilities in life are expanded by what you learn and limited by what you do not know.
The purpose of Communist Goal #17 is to cheat every person in our society of the opportunity to learn, thereby depriving you and your children of an opportunity you otherwise would have to become all you could have been if given an honest education.
The lifestyle of each American has been worsened to some extent by the Communists among us.

Jack
"..Once there is a Palestine, that nation will have to decide whether or not to act like an indpendent, functioning state. By keeping the Palestinians effectively powerless, the world prevents them from assuming their rights and responsibilities as a nation, leaving only chaos and terrorism. "

you nailed it BUT I suspect a buffer force will be needed until the immediate hate wanes a bit. Both are too accustomed to killing each other with little provokation

"It also opens the door for Israel to legitimately declare war on Palestine as a result of either Palestinian behavior or rhetoric."

Too east to do they will need a peace keeping force

Hal Donahue Scribbles:
Too east to do they will need a peace keeping force

And I know just the reired REMF Garritrooper to lead it.

correction
retired

Lumberjack7392
"...You can say whatever you like. You are a Democratic Party fanatic. What are you going to do when they throw the veterans and miltary under the bus when they are no longer needed for political cover< And that will happen Jan 20 at 12:01 p.m. if Obama wins."

That is easy they will not. The entire military family (active, retired, reserve and Guard, veterans and thier families) are back in the Democratic family and many are running for Congress. One thing about us crusty old military types we do not give up.

" Your party has hated with an undying passion the miltary for 35 years. A couple of years of window dressing won't change that. Your party lives on the money of anti-military persons abd organizations. "

See here you miss the picture. the Ds HAD been less than welcoming to military and vets but this is a sea change. Organizations like Votevets.org and IAVA.org ensure that veterans and the military are respected and treated well. Do not underestimate them. The other major point is that the Republican Party has chased both the military and veterans away thru supporting rotation after rotation while cutting support for the wounded and families etc. Let me phrase it another way. Just before the millineum the Republican Party was courting ME to consider a run for Congress when the sitting man retired and I actually thought about it. So don't throw me into the fanatic catagory. Throw me in the I support those who support me and mine(veterans and military) pile.


Hal The Communist LIAR!
Your silly conjecture is boring and you are perfectly free to fantasize as long as you don't try to pass off your fantasy as fact.

Tell me some more lies I can call you on.
I am going to make a list for you like I have for Wobbie.
You are catching up to Wobbie.

Lumberjack7392
"...Too east to do they will need a peace keeping force

And I know just the reired REMF Garritrooper to lead it. "

See there you go again I am ignoring the wrong and silly insults yet again. I must disqualify myself simply because I have nothing but contempt for both the Israeli and Palistinian leadership - a POX on both thier houses. The entire conflict is a needless relic of the cold war

Hal Donahue Scribbles:
See here you miss the picture. the Ds HAD been less than welcoming to military and vets but this is a sea change. Organizations like Votevets.org and IAVA.org ensure that veterans and the military are respected and treated well. Do not underestimate them. The other major point is that the Republican Party has chased both the military and veterans away thru supporting rotation after rotation while cutting support for the wounded and families etc. Let me phrase it another way. Just before the millineum the Republican Party was courting ME to consider a run for Congress when the sitting man retired and I actually thought about it. So don't throw me into the fanatic catagory. Throw me in the I support those who support me and mine(veterans and military) pile.

And like I said that last until 12:01 p.m. on 0`1/20/2009 if Obama wins. You have never said that the Dems have ever done anything wrong. You do not not change thirty five years of hatred by waving a magic wand and saying "Abra Cadabra." Too many of your supporters prove that on a daily basis. You are a fanatic and wedded to all lib Dem principles. I have never seen you say that the Dems have ever done anything wrong.
Like I, also said it should be DemVoteVets and you know it. I suspect if I ran for Congress, which given that since Jeb Hensarling is my Rep is highly unlikely, unless I surrendered my principles, I would never receive the slightest notice from DemVoteVets.

Hal:
You were a REMF Garritrooper.

Lumberjack7392
Do you think HalD or any "VoteVets" will support these Veterans?

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/iraq_vets_for_congre ss.html

Or help the cause of these Veterans?
http://www.kerrystreason.com/index.html

MyOpine writes:
Subject: Lumberjack7392
Do you think HalD or any "VoteVets" will support these Veterans?

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/iraq_vets_for_congre ss.html

Or help the cause of these Veterans?
http://www.kerrystreason.com/index.html

Not bloody likely.

Iraq sent WMD to Syria to do what?
I'm not a genius but do you think Saddam thought 200,000 Americans are going to invade and I will lose my job and probably get killed but those WMD might kill innocent people or get the Americans mad if I used them.So I'm gonna send them out of the country and have my 20 year old tanks and pretty crappy army stop the Americans.No proof is good enough for some of these idiots.

Thanks to Orphan and Sunthe1
Okay, Jack. Let's do this again.

You rrrrrealy think that Bush was able to fool all of the people simply by virtue of his being the president? Do you acknowledge (at least!) that he was fed bad intelligence by the CIA (which had been gutted by Clinton)? i.e. George Tenet's 'slam dunk.'


You wrote,"And you discount the time frames. He did at one point try to fool everyone, and later, before the war, he stopped."

No, he didn't stop. He just kept stalling to throw people like you of the scent so that we would leave him alone to reconstitute his covert WMD program. Do you sincerely doubt that?

'Painting' our planes is an attack. It is a provocation worthy of retaliation. In fact, they would turn off the radars quickly in order to avoid getting bombed.

Hans Blix could NOT possibly have certified Iraq WMD free. That's a fantasy. Saddam denied and delayed access to the inspectors numerous times. Beyond that, Iraq is a HUGE country. WMD could have been hidden anywhere and it probably was. I repeat: The only way to really know that Saddam was WMD free was to depose him. The ancillary benefits of democracy, freedom and economic prosperity are beginning to flower as well.

Hal Donahue Scribbles:
his usual self-serving bullsh!t.

Hal your party is too much in the control of MoveOn.com, Code Pink, NOW, Naral, Berkeley style libs, the Cindy Sheehan's of the nation,U, DailyKOS, Wmirking Chimp, HuffPuke, and terrorists like Bill Ayers to ever change its spots when it comes to the military. Your candidate has already shown, when he doesn't need someone he will throw them under the bus, and on 01/20/2009 should he win he will throw the vets and the military under the bus. And your leadership has shown in words and often in deeds how it feels about the military. Do Kerry, Kennedy, Schumer, Durbin, Clyburn, Pelosi, Reid, Murtha, etc come to mind?


Texas Chuck
No, you're not a genius. Your reasoning is omitting other options. The idea was to hide the WMD from the inspectors in order to stall stall stall until the American public became enamored with Paris Hilton etc.

Perhaps YOU are the idiot, idiot.



That 70 cents in CA
is just the pump taxes. Subtract that from the price, then take 1/3 of the remainder. That is the hidden indirect taxes on gas and everything else.

Repeal all taxes and the price of everything-including government-would be reduced by 1/3. The price of gas would be reduced by almost half, before Obama's dollar a gallon new gas tax.

This doesn't include Obama's "845 BILLION DOLLARS FOR THE UN" tax, RAngel's $1 TRILLION tax, and the "45 TRILLION DOLLAR ALGORE- ENRICHMENT tax.

Lumberjack7392: If Clinton hadn't gutted the fully-staffed, fully-trained, fully-equipped military he inherited, it wouldn't have been necessary to use the reserves for the War On Terror.

Mick: Hang all of both.

Steve
"..You rrrrrealy think that Bush was able to fool all of the people simply by virtue of his being the president? Do you acknowledge (at least!) that he was fed bad intelligence by the CIA (which had been gutted by Clinton)? i.e. George Tenet's 'slam dunk.'"

"..No, he didn't stop. He just kept stalling to throw people like you of the scent so that we would leave him alone to reconstitute his covert WMD program. Do you sincerely doubt that? "

Yes he was writing a romance novel for gods' sake. We had him pinned down and contained was it worth all that has happened to take him out? The American and Iraqi people say no

"'Painting' our planes is an attack. It is a provocation worthy of retaliation. In fact, they would turn off the radars quickly in order to avoid getting bombed."

WOW we agree but that was part of keeping him pinned down and harmless

"Hans Blix could NOT possibly have certified Iraq WMD free. That's a fantasy. Saddam denied and delayed access to the inspectors numerous times. Beyond that, Iraq is a HUGE country. WMD could have been hidden anywhere and it probably was. I repeat: The only way to really know that Saddam was WMD free was to depose him."

WRONG in a BIG way Cheney said we knew where the weapons were at all times. When Hans asked he was told to pound sand. That moment right there was when I realised that they cooked the books for war

"The ancillary benefits of democracy, freedom and economic prosperity are beginning to flower as well"

Are they worth all our young soldiers and all our treasure? Tell me are they? Especially since we now must turn around and recapture Afghanistan and secure Pakistan

Lumberjack7392
"...Hal your party is too much in the control of MoveOn.com, Code Pink, NOW, Naral, Berkeley style libs, the Cindy Sheehan's of the nation,U, DailyKOS, Wmirking Chimp, HuffPuke, and terrorists like Bill Ayers to ever change its spots when it comes to the military. "

Wrong the spots have changed BUT you are still in the thrall of DeLay, Cheney, Santorum etc who have always "hated" anything military - just look at thier budget submissions

"...And your leadership has shown in words and often in deeds how it feels about the military. Do Kerry, Kennedy, Schumer, Durbin, Clyburn, Pelosi, Reid, Murtha, etc come to mind? "

Oh yes they do BUT you forget there is NO ONE more pro soldier than Murtha... Pelosi is VERY sensitive to military and veterans issues, shall I go on? Let's rephrase it: what while they had the chance did the Rs and you conservatives do for either the military or veterans? What?

Ron
"...Repeal all taxes and the price of everything-including government-would be reduced by 1/3. The price of gas would be reduced by almost half, before Obama's dollar a gallon new gas tax."

Let's see no roads, electricity, etc a straight road no turns to third world nation status.

"This doesn't include Obama's "845 BILLION DOLLARS FOR THE UN" tax, RAngel's $1 TRILLION tax, and the "45 TRILLION DOLLAR ALGORE- ENRICHMENT tax."

LMAO get real

"Lumberjack7392: If Clinton hadn't gutted the fully-staffed, fully-trained, fully-equipped military he inherited, it wouldn't have been necessary to use the reserves for the War On Terror."

Ahh wait a minute that was done under the Reagan administration. The rationale was that using the reserves would act as a brake on some crazy future president waging war again without the support of the people - gosh were we ever wrong there; we assumed that no leader would ever just force troops back into battle over and over...

Hal The Communist LIAR!
YOU ARE A DAMNED LIAR HAL!
Furnish links to support your conjecture.

You just keep parroting the same lies over & over.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=108186B 9-EFDB-4EFF-AA4D-60F699FD5C8B

You PRETEND to care about our military while you anxiously await each new casualty to use for PROPAGANDA!

You PRETEND to be a Patriot and love your Country while you constantly badmouth America and invent lies to defame our Government and our Military
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=5509FEE E-FCFE-4926-8C62-AB8EA4B124FB

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-TUpCdsQmYqcjHcNZ9xfaR14-?cq= 1&tag=codepink

MyOpine
"...Hal The Communist LIAR!
YOU ARE A DAMNED LIAR HAL!
Furnish links to support your conjecture."

No true at all - I was there!

"...You PRETEND to care about our military while you anxiously await each new casualty to use for PROPAGANDA!"{

Talking point???? Come on old timer this is a perfect example of you doing exactly what you accuse me of doing...

"You PRETEND to be a Patriot and love your Country while you constantly badmouth America and invent lies to defame our Government and our Military"

Ispent 20 plus years "pretending"? Get real

Hal The Communist LIAR!
You often compound your lies Hal. Lets see what you can do with this one!

Lie #1.
"I told that before I left the NRA when they became an extremist organization in the late 60s early 70s"

Lie #2.
"Opposing EVERY effort to restrict fire arms and ammunition makes it extremist"

You are a liar Hal. You were ever in the NRA.
You are ignorant of NRA politics.
The NRA often sponsors firearms legislation and recommends membership support.
Show some examples of NRA extremism.

Your fantasy generalities are not specific Hal. Cite actual instances of extremism.
(Or admit you are a liar, have never been in the NRA and don't know what you are talking about!)

Only criminals and cowards fear guns in the hands of honest men.

Hal The enemy Collaborator.
You were in the military, just like Murtha and Kerry?
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/ 200601/NAT20060120a.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=5509FEE E-FCFE-4926-8C62-AB8EA4B124FB

http://www.kerrystreason.com/index.html

Benedict Arnold was also in the military.


Failure to answer this question labels you an Enemy Collaborator.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?
As the Progressive you are RIGHT NOW, not assuming other form or hypothetical pretense.
Can you think of anything you have not done already?

MyOpine
"You often compound your lies Hal. Lets see what you can do with this one!

Lie #1.
"I told that before I left the NRA when they became an extremist organization in the late 60s early 70s"

Yes I did. What is your point? I cannot understand how ANY urban policeman could support the NRA. I suspect that they are as scarce as military veterans at NRA functions LOL


"Lie #2.
"Opposing EVERY effort to restrict fire arms and ammunition makes it extremist""

Since the use of every usually is wrong you well could be right BUT you cannot count legislation intended to provide cover.

"You are a liar Hal. You were ever in the NRA."

Yes sadly I was and it shames me that I was

"You are ignorant of NRA politics. "

this is true

"The NRA often sponsors firearms legislation and recommends membership support.
Show some examples of NRA extremism."

Really other than red herrings? Go ahead tell me about some

"..Only criminals and cowards fear guns in the hands of honest men."

LOL not true ask any city cop. They fear guns in the hands of the uneducted and the stupid which often....

Look I am not anti gun at all and have owned some BUT the NRA from what I have seen is led by chickenhawk wantabes and do society little good but hey that is just my opinion.

Hal
You wrote, "We had him pinned down and contained was it worth all that has happened to take him out? The American and Iraqi people say no." So you would rather have Saddam cooking up WMD in the desert until he dies of old age and then his adorable sons take over? Saddam was obviously planning to be the hegemonic power in the Middle East. Then, he would have shaken down the west by virtue of his control over our coveted oil supply. With hegemonic power, Saddam could then have gone about creating WMD to further his megomaniacal ambitions all the while extorting the free world and terrorizing the Iraqi people. With WMD, no one would dare invade so Saddam could go about his nefarious plans in peace while freedom and democracy would have to wait. Alternatively, Saddam could have (and did) start an arms race in the Middle East because his neighbors would have to protect themselves. That's one big reason that Iran started its secret nuke program - to counter Saddam's WMD.

Saddam is NOT pinned downed and harmless if we have to maintain a significant military presence in the region for years putting our soldiers at risk and spending our treasure. We would be hearing the same 'exit strategy' crap today. Plus, we could not know for sure that WMD was not being produced undetected.

Cheney et al had plenty of evidence that indicated the WMD was there, period. The Democratic Party agreed. Besides, I've explained to you already that Saddam was just laying low until the heat was off and then he would have restarted his WMD program full-speed ahead. Continued.

Part II
Yes, the war is worth it. Al-Qeada is all but defeated and on the run. Many millions of people are getting to touch real freedom and democracy for the 1st time. We don't have to worry about Saddam and his WMD any more. We may have a great friend in Iraq for many years to come along with military installations in strategic places for years to thwart Iran. Our oil supply is more secure. Millions of women are liberated from unbearable oppression and going to school by the millions. I could go on...

my
"You often compound your lies Hal. Lets see what you can do with this one!

Lie #1.
"I told that before I left the NRA when they became an extremist organization in the late 60s early 70s"

Yes I did. What is your point? I cannot understand how ANY urban policeman could support the NRA. I suspect that they are as scarce as military veterans at NRA functions LOL


"Lie #2.
"Opposing EVERY effort to restrict fire arms and ammunition makes it extremist""

Since the use of every usually is wrong you well could be right BUT you cannot count legislation intended to provide cover.

"You are a liar Hal. You were ever in the NRA."

Yes sadly I was and it shames me that I was

"You are ignorant of NRA politics. "

this is true

"The NRA often sponsors firearms legislation and recommends membership support.
Show some examples of NRA extremism."

Really other than red herrings? Go ahead tell me about some

"..Only criminals and cowards fear guns in the hands of honest men."

LOL not true ask any city cop. They fear guns in the hands of the uneducted and the stupid which often....

Look I am not anti gun at all and have owned some BUT the NRA from what I have seen is led by chickenhawk wantabes and do society little good but hey that is just my opinion.

HalD
You are entitled to you own opinion Hal but you are not entitled to invent your own facts.

Contrary to your lying conjecture, the NRA is strongly supported by Law Enforcement.
This is another reason I think you are also lying about having once served in Law Enforcement.

Most NRA members I know are Veterans.

I don't know what service you were in where they taught you to cower at the sight of firearms in the hands of honest men.

Since you insist in badmouthing an organization of millions of voters & families in spite of being given explicit orders to avoid angering Gun owners & the NRA, I will give you some reading material so you won't look so stupid next time.

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=209

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=83

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=127

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=128

Steve

"...The American and Iraqi people say no." So you would rather have Saddam cooking up WMD in the desert until he dies of old age and then his adorable sons take over? "

no but he was finished the sanctions reduced him to writing ROMANCE novels.... The crazy sons never had a chance at taking control and never would have you are deep into "whatif land" in hopes of salvaging some reason why we killed over 4,000 US soldiers and let the man and organization who attacked us go free...

"Saddam was obviously planning to be the hegemonic power in the Middle East. "

Obviously?????? do tell??? He was just trying to hang on...

"Then, he would have shaken down the west by virtue of his control over our coveted oil supply. With hegemonic power, Saddam could then have gone about creating WMD to further his megomaniacal ambitions ... That's one big reason that Iran started its secret nuke program - to counter Saddam's WMD."

WOW you are a frightened person. Do you create superpower villians in your town too?

"Cheney et al had plenty of evidence that indicated the WMD was there, period."

Period is correct - this is a lie. Everything points tothe caveats being removed and worst case being painted. Exactly what you would expect from frightened little men

"The Democratic Party agreed. Besides, I've explained to you already that Saddam was just laying low until the heat was off and then he would have restarted his WMD program full-speed ahead. Continued. "

LMAO based upon what???? What comic books are you reading?

Steve
"...Yes, the war is worth it."

Were you there? Not a smart answer but a real question. I know little about you

" Al-Qeada is all but defeated and on the run."

WHAT???? They just took control of yet another part of Pakistan and freed lots prisoners in Afghanistan what are you talking about?

"...We don't have to worry about Saddam and his WMD any more. "

We never really did. Did we?

"We may have a great friend in Iraq for many years to come along with military installations in strategic places for years to thwart Iran. "

Really even as their Parliment say they want us out now? you are drinking kool aide. I must ask how old are you>?

"Our oil supply is more secure. Millions of women are liberated from unbearable oppression and going to school by the millions. I could go on... "

Women were freer under Saddam than they are now. That is a fact please stop talking nonsense

Steve
I do not know if you knew this but under Saddam University was free and for women too

Hal The enemy Collaborator.
You are still parroting the same lies.
(And propagandizing war dead)
FURNISH LINKS!

So like Reid & Murtha, you think our military is defeated and should surrender?

What about Iran Hal?
Do you want to surrender preemptively?

You send a message of cowardic