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Friday, June 13, 2008
John Hawkins :: Townhall.com Columnist
Tackling Five Modern Myths Created by Liberals
by John Hawkins
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In recent years, liberals have mastered the art of lying. A lefty blog writes a story, then two dozen other blogs pick-up. Next thing you know, the libs in the mainstream media are echoing the charges that started in the blogosphere without mentioning that they're false.

At that point, we're in a Catch-22 because liberals very seldom challenge lies about Republicans, no matter how obvious they may be, and when conservatives point out inaccuracies, it's treated as immaterial because we "must" be biased. Since the mainstream media works this way and is so heavily slanted to the left, it makes it very difficult for conservatives to get their side of the story out.

Then, a few months later, after the lies have been repeated ad nauseum, even conservatives who are uninformed may start to mistake the untrue charges for the truth. That's why these modern liberal myths, like the ones you are about to read, need to be countered with the truth.

George Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq: This is actually one of the most easily disproved myths because after looking at the same intelligence George Bush was given, many prominent Democrats said almost the exact things Bush did about Iraq's WMDs.

For example, here's Hillary Clinton,

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

Now here's John Edwards,

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

They weren't tricked by the Bush Administration and they weren't part of some cover-up designed to lie us into war. To the contrary, they looked at our intelligence reports and came to the same conclusions the Bush Administration did. That's why both of them voted for the war. If the Democrats were honest, they'd be willing to admit that Bush told the truth.

Al Gore would have won the election in 2000 if all the votes had been counted: The problem with this assertion is that all the votes were counted after the fact -- by mainstream media organizations that are hostile to the Bush Administration. What was their conclusion? That George Bush would have won had the unconstitutional full recount been allowed to go forward.

The Miami Herald did a recount and here's the headline and the first paragraph from their article describing the results,

"REVIEW SHOWS BALLOTS SAY BUSH

Republican George W. Bush's victory in Florida, which gave him the White House, almost certainly would have endured even if a recount stopped by the U.S. Supreme Court had been allowed to go forward."

There was also a 2nd recount done by eight media groups. Here's what the New York Times, one of the participants, had to say about it. Again, I am quoting the headline and the first paragraph,

"Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote

A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year's presidential election reveals that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward"

So, the reality is that even if the unconstitutional recount of the Florida ballots had gone forward, Bush still would have won the election.

George Bush's "16 Words" in the 2003 State of the Union were a lie: This was the statement which led to the Valerie Plame scandal. It was as follows:

"The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Later the White House said this assertion was "incorrect" and George Tenet added that those words shouldn't have been in the speech. From there, that egomaniacal jackass, Joseph Wilson, publicly made himself into the main character of a story he was only tangentially involved in and things snowballed from there.

However, the British Government did believe Saddam Hussein had "sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa," and moreover, a "separate report by the US Senate Intelligence Committee said...that the US also had similar information from 'a number of intelligence reports.'" In addition, the British Butler report concluded that Iraq did try to buy uranium in Nigeria in 1999 and that George Bush's 16 words were "well-founded."

After reading that, you can only conclude that the Bush Administration's mistake was not in lying, but in prematurely declaring that the "16 words" weren't correct.

Bush made 9/11 happen on purpose or let it happen on purpose: This loony conspiracy theory has been floating around for years despite the fact that,

"The 9/11 attacks, or at least parts of those attacks, have been investigated by the 9/11 commission, the CIA, FBI, FAA, FEMA, The National Institute of Standards and Technology, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Popular Mechanics, and countless mainstream newspapers -- among other sources."

Start considering the size of the conspiracy that we're talking about here, folks. Not only are we talking about the people who planned and executed the attacks, we're talking about the firemen, policemen, and medical workers who helped out in the aftermath. At least some of them must have been able to figure out what was going on. Then we're talking about all the people who investigated the attacks, who are from every background, religious sect, walk-of-life, and political party you can imagine. Yet, all of these people, tens of thousands of them, are supposed to be participating in a massive cover-up? Meanwhile, the Bush Administration can't even seem to keep the details of highly classified intelligence programs from being publicized in the New York Times. It's just not possible that a conspiracy of that magnitude could exist, which is why no rational and intelligent person buys into these wacky 9/11 conspiracy theories.

There is a consensus on man-made global warming: Because the global warming alarmists can't give a good answer to many of the most basic questions that people have, they've simply been claiming that almost every scientist believes they're right. The idea here is that people will think, "They may not be able to make a case for what they believe, but if all those scientists agree with them, they must be spot-on!"

However, while there is a consensus that the earth warmed a small amount over the last century, there is no consensus on whether mankind is responsible, whether the warming will continue, and whether the consequences will be serious if it does. In fact, more than 31,000 American scientists have signed a petition stating the following:

"We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.

There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth."

Maybe you agree with that or maybe you don't, but what should be beyond dispute at this point is that there is certainly no scientific consensus on global warming.

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About The Author
John Hawkins is a professional blogger who runs Right Wing News, Linkiest, and Viral Footage.
 
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Obama's Reluctance to Protect America
Obama had the same intel that everyone else did which provided strong indication of Saddam's WMD capabilities. Yet, given this information, he NEVER challenged it. His whole stated purpose was that we should be fixed on finding one person hiding away in Pakistan and forget about other threats against us. No one challenged this intel until months after the War commenced. If he is such a leader and so "right" on this issue, he should have done so before. The fact is he is taking this issue because it is expedient to do so. He was reluctant to defend America and reluctant to act when the intel was there because it is not his political priority to do so. What will President Obama do if he is given intel that all advisors and allies alike agree shows WMD capabilities against the US or its allies? Nothing. His #1 sacred duty is to protect America and he has no experience and has demonstrated no resolve to do so.

Qoute from Stu's link
Remember how liberals claim Bush mislead them on nukes? Here's a great qoute from Bush in 2002 from the link Stu referred us to which exposes the liberal lie.... Again:


"Many people have asked how close Saddam Hussein is to developing a nuclear weapon. Well, we don't know exactly, and that's the problem. Before the Gulf War, the best intelligence indicated that Iraq was eight to ten years away from developing a nuclear weapon. After the war, international inspectors learned that the regime has been much closer -- the regime in Iraq would likely have possessed a nuclear weapon no later than 1993. The inspectors discovered that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a workable nuclear weapon, and was pursuing several different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb."

Where is the lie? Liberals, you're entitled to your opinions, but NOT your own facts!


Reply to Stu #22 and #92
Stuart, I took valuable time from my day to read your link ostensibly linking 9/11 to Saddam. The link was lengthy but I read it anyway. I recall Bush giving the speech. It was a work of art.

Your assertion that Bush linked the cause of 9/11 to Bush was a lie. It is no where in the article. You totally twisted his words to mean what you wanted him to mean. Did you do it on purpose to mislead bloggers or was it an innocent mistake? Your credibility is at stake.

More importantly, are you now willing to recant your statement and admit that Bush did NOT link the cause of 9/11 to Saddam and that your false assertion is just another liberal lie?

Liberals and Conservatives-
I use to be a registered Dem., but Carter was the last one I voted for. I just couldn't under stand some of their thinking, until I started to watch one in action. Alan Colmes, watch him for a few days and you will see how convoluted their thinking is. I wrote Shawn Hannity and told him I couldn't believe he had him on, but than I decided it was a good idea, everytime he opens his mouth, stupid is the only description I can think of.

All the rehashing of 2000, is really unbelieveable. Thank God Big Al lost. When Nixon lost to Kennedy he didn't fight it even though it was later learned that Kennedy's father did buy votes. Nixon said it would not be good for America to drag it out. One difference between Dems and Rep. is who they think about first, what is best for America or themselves.

Liberals are for abortion, with the line 'It is a womans choice," I say her choice is to have sex or be responsible. That is the choice, after that it is murder. I had a liberal tell me it wasn't murder because the blob didn't have a social security number or a name. How can one argue with that lodgic!

Think about Global Warming, are they worried about what is actually going to happen, acording to Big Al's hog wash, or is it just a path to control. Control over our energy, which is control over our economy, which is control over our lives, right down to telling us how many children we can have, size of house, and kind of car.I have said it a thousand times, Big Al's Global Warming is just a money making scheme, to make a few wealthy and to give government control over us. Wake up, elections are just around the corner.

I for one am proud of our president, he made some very hard decisions, which I truly believe have kept us safe here at home since 9-11. And when I see him and Laura, I know they are actually a couple who love each other, and not just when the camers are on them.

ACCESSING COMMENTS
Any reason why I, an iMAC user, can't access the comments about this article? Are there any Apple people out there who can?

If this post has made it to the comments section, I'd appreciate some feedback, THANKS.

jon1sam2@aol.com

Stu ..... Nuclear
Stu - you lib-tards (thanks to whomever coined that moniker, I like it)always want to label Bush as a stupid illiterate bumpkin because of his pronunciation of the work NUCLEAR. I bet you have a framed picture in your house of JFK. A lib legend who almost went to war with CUBER and Pocked the CA at Haaaved yaad. Get over the nit picking on it. Bush is an excellent communicator. It is the meaning that is communication, not the pronunciation.

Sources
AZPhil . . .

Given your background in atmospheric science, can you recommend any HARD SCIENCE websites which actually explain the assumptions and METHODOLOGIES that are used in gathering climate data, and any peer-reviewed statistical studies going back as far as possible?

Dear Butcher;
Listen carefully, I will only say this once.

There is a distinction between something being "NOT a crisis of great magnitude," (as the liberals are trying to portray it,) and being "Acceptable."

If you cannot figure that out, we have no basis for further discussion

jd


Liberal Lie #2
The second one mentioned in this article sticks out in my mind. Numerous Dems are still repeating various lies about the 2000 election. They use the lies to raise money and to trash all Republican candidates who oppose them. Don't they realize that lying about Bush only eliminates their credibility with intelligent voters? I guess they don't really care about getting the votes of intelligent people. That's why they nominated Obama.

Hard Thought
>…A coalition of the willing to enforce the resolutions, and liberals think we're the bad guys.
Give me a break. You guys couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel. <

There was no international mandate and weapons inspections and diplomatic efforts (slow and painful as they might have been) were still going on when god and Bush both told Blair to cut across the international community and help invade Iraq, on the strength of intelligence that was wrong. A coalition of the pig-headed?

Stuart

BUSH HAS BALLS?

.....DOC ...

.....HE HAS TO HAVE THEM BEFORE THEY CAN ICE OVER ...I thought I was voting for a leader but I ended up with Curious George .....COLOSSUS

az paulo all of you w/o BDS
Same to you. I was no fan of Tim, but I do wish his family well.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

OH yes
BDS made it here BIG TIME

I gotta go make dinner
The boss is on the way and she likes her dinner HOT and on the table when she gets home.

pablo
"Unfortunately I have not been interested in why or if the planet Mars is warming."

See above for why it matters. In fact, Mars is a good control in our 'experiment' - nothing changes but one variable (the sun).

You have a good weekend as well...too bad about Tim.

george Washington
" was not aware that many of the "official" temperature recording stations may be located in areas affected by this phenomenom."

Yes, we have chopped down too many cherry trees since your time:) In fact, most "official" temperatures are taken at or near airports. there are rules, like the shade, they are supposed to be over grass, etc. However, look at the patch of earth now occupied by, for example Dallas-Ft Worth Int'l Airport. Now imagine it 100 years ago. All I'm saying is, when it was dirt/trees/grass/or whatever in the 19th century, I'd be willing to bet (a serious bet, like a limb) that it didn't heat up as much then as it does now since the uncountable tons of concrete have been placed there.

Don't forget the model resolution. Despite huge areas of China, Canada, Siberia with no reliable records, fairly large patches of ground are all assigned one homogeneous value. This is ESPECIALLY bad in areas of rapid terrain change.

Let's say your monitor is 1280x1024 resolution and mine is 32x48, and we are both looking at the samepicture. Would you let my analysis overrule yours? yet the climate models are very "pixellated", if you will.

Doc
It could be that Mars is getting warmer because it is heated by the same sun as earth. Unfortunately I have not been interested in why or if the planet Mars is warming. I have to limit my research to some reasonable level due to my limited intellectual capacity.

If I don't hear from you again or I get sidetracked please have a good weekend.

It is a shock about Tim Russert. I liked him. I don't watch much of those talking head shows. Scrambles my brains.

pablo 2
I brought up Mars because it is in the same solar system as we are, yet absent of humans.

I am reading a book right now (Meteorology Today, 8th edition, by Ahrens). He points out on p 438 that there are three external forcing mechanisms that can change our climate.

1) Changes in incoming solar radiation
2) Changes in the composition of the atmosphere
3) Changes in the earth's surface

Yet scientists concentrate only on the 2nd one, and only on one greenhouse gas. We all know we can't do a thing about the first one. I would suggest that IF global warming is actually happening, what if (1) is partially responsible? And you can infer the truth of that if Mars is also warming, because it shares only one bond with earth - they have the same sun.

#3 is infrequently mentioned. Again, IF GW is happening, part of that is due to the replacement of forest with plains, and of plains with desert.

Finally, as I said above, the artificial doubling of CO2 instantaneously, the fairly poor resolution of the models, and the factors that are coded in because we simply don't know what to do, all makeme leery.

And most studies begin with "our models show..." with the underlying premise being "our models are correct". I, and more importantly, Dr Lorenz, think maybe that is not true.

Pablo 1
Yes, I have read these. However, what about the underlying premise? That is, "our models are thorough and comprehensive, and of suitable resolution to give a correct answer?"

If computer models can't accurately forecast beyond 48 hours, why would I believe that they can forecast "the climate" 100 years from now?

Statistics comes into play, too. The "mean temperature of the earth" may climb by 0.5C, but unequally distributed. Laymen assume that means everywhere will be uniformly 0.5C warmer, when it means nothing of the sort.

(As an example, if a teacher gave a test and the average score was 78, and three weeks later gave another test and the average was 81, it does not follow that YOU personally scored three points higher).


Data and your acceptance of the findings
JD and some others you discuss the fact that 13 or 12.7% more service personell committed suicide from last year as if it was acceptable losses.
The loss of one life is subject to cause. Why are these people committing suicide in our military.
When I served, many could not do their job without questioning the morality of it. I did not care if it was moral or immoral, It was a war and I was being shot at.
In war there is only one rule, destroy your opponent before they destroy you. But do not destroy your own troops.
It is seen as failure if you trandfer out those that the Services send you as `fit' for the job.
So many times they are not, so you create jobs and duties that keep them away from harming your other troops. But you do not force them to suicide. Only the sic and vile do that.
Other military is comprised far to much of the later today.

pablo st. cruz
P.S. I have no idea why Mars is getting warmer or cooler. We were not discussing Mars.

Hmmm, could it be because it is being warmed by the same sun? Just a thought. Let’s not start leaving relevant facts out.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Interesting...
...posts by doc and AZPhil regarding so-called global warming...

...indeed the urbar heat island effect caused by the retention of solar warmth by concrete, asphalt, etc. is a well-known fact. I was not aware that many of the "official" temperature recording stations may be located in areas affected by this phenomenom. This might make a great study. Correlation of temperature "increases" at stations near this effect versus those not impacted by the effect.

I am well versed in the methodology of statistics, however. The data set (temperature measurements over a mere hundred and fify years or) is too small to make any reliable and statistically significant inferences from the data.

Might as well predict the result from the first flip of a coin.

Your Most Humble, etc.

George Washington

Tim Russert
Breaking: Tim Russert has died of a heart attack

http://www.newsmax.com/?s=al&promo_code=644D-1

John Hawkins tackling Myths??????
Wow, your a big one there Bubba.
I really though long and hard about the things you wrote. I really did give you about as much lee way I could, but your column is just full of `BS CRAP'
You are right in your quotes of both Clinton and Edwards, but they do not make the lies gospel.
Look, we as a nation have chemical and germ weapons at our disposal. In the past, We have used them in combat and against civilian targets on both sides of the Ocean.
In the first conflict with Saddam, he threatend to use these weapons against us. He did not and we only speculate that he did in three occasions that I read about. No proof was every supplied, that agents where infact used against us.
Iraq was once a major player in the middle east over the course of mankind, but always fell to the Persians (Iran).
He did not want that to happen to him, and waged an eight year war against them for us.
Kuwait was a get even and back into Arab good graces, because Kuwait tollerated Isreal. Even it was rummired supplied refueling for her jets that bombed his Nuclear Reactor project.
So John as a Republican to another, quit the myth tackling and go after a nice 22oz. sirloin steak, w/ mushrooms and onions instead.

AZ phil
I respect your comments about the state of global warming and the fact that you have degrees in Metrology.

Have you visited either of these two sites?

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#q3

http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/2007climatechange.html

Because they seem to contridict your theory about global warming.

P.S. I have no idea why Mars is getting warmer or cooler. We were not discussing Mars.

Bill
That is an excellent summation...thanks!

Stu - Still Refusiing to Read His Links
Stu,

I went to the White House link you listed. There is NOTHING in the speech that links Saddam Hussein to 11 September, 2001.

The President did refer to contacts between al-Qa'ida and Iraqi officials. That has been proven.

The President did refer Iraqi support for terror groups. That has been proven.

The President did refer to Saddam attempting to reconstruct his WMD programs. Unfortunately, Saddam was lying, for the most part, in an attempt to threaten Iran. It worked. The world believed Saddam had the WMDs the President mentioned. That is again fact.

WMDs were found in Iraq, mainly Mustard gas. However, the military did find small quantities of Sarin nerve gas. Both were totally forbidden by the 1991 cease fire accords.

So again we ask, WHERE DID THE PRESIDENT LIE?

I submit that it is you, Stu, who is the habitual liar.

Stu
There is NOTHING in that article linking 9/11 and Saddam, just Saddam and terrorism. Nothing.

And there ARE links, so keep trying.

Or just keep repeating the lies that make you feel better about the previous President who DID lie.

Doc
"I will admit to much ignorance on the subject. But as I stated I am just a laymen. With your post I see the light (and the clouds) a little more clearly. Thanks for that."

Therein lies the problem. The general populace is ignorant of such matters. Moreover, how many of the 535 members of Congress have science degrees (not poliical science, either)?

So the unknowing can easily latch onto a cause and herd the rest of the unknowing as they choose. And you see the result - people believe this crap.

AZPhil
Water vapor is a powerful greenhouse gas and is present in the atmosphere ranging from 0-4% (or a max of 40,000 ppm compared with 380 ppm for CO2).

I will admit to much ignorance on the subject. But as I stated I am just a laymen. With your post I see the light (and the clouds) a little more clearly. Thanks for that.
P.S. I forgot to mention the one thermometer reader was located right next to a BBQ place.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean



Doc
"I also read some where that they put the systems to close to other things. Like shopping malls and one by a gas station, places like that. What kind of readings where they making errrr, hoping for, errrrrrr recording? LOL"

Yeah, I wonder if the urban heat island effect (which is real and well-understood) is greater in 21st century America than it was in the 19th century? Is there more concrete now? I mean, concreete has a lower heat capacity than grass or trees, and storm drains allow water (which has a very high heat capacity) to run off and therefore increase the nearby temperatures even more. I will do more research and get back to you.

Doc.
"How am I doing?"

Pretty well. It is unbridled arrogance to assume we know all there is to know about a system as complex as the ocean-atmosphere. I think we just discovered new species in the oceans within the last five years.

Another little quirk I didn't mention about many cliamte models with their already low resolution. Often, the methdoology is to double CO2 from the current 380 ppm to 760 ppm (instantaneously), then let the model run "to equilibrium". The problem there is that CO2 does not in fact double in an instant; it does so gradually. And while it's doing so (gradually), there are feedback mechanisms in place that dampen the impact (greater uptake by oceans and plant life chief among them).

Another fatal flaw in this whole thing is that they single out one source or global warming (CO2) which the developed world just HAPPENS to produce more of), all the while ignoring other and more powerful greenhouse gases such as methane and water vapor. Water vapor is a powerful greenhouse gas and is present in the atmosphere ranging from 0-4% (or a max of 40,000 ppm compared with 380 ppm for CO2). But, we can't punish capitalist societies for producing water vapor, so we'll ignore that. Hmmm...no agenda here.

baseballdoc
I will do so, but his balls as of late seems to have iced over.

AZPhil
I also read some where that they put the systems to close to other things. Like shopping malls and one by a gas station, places like that. What kind of readings where they making errrr, hoping for, errrrrrr recording? LOL

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

AZPhil
Just a laymen here, but what I get out of what you are trying to teach me is not only should I be thinking about how long man has been around keeping records of temps, they have been doing it wrong. I.E. you can not really average any temps out due to big differences in say, surface temps on the ocean compared to temps in Siberia as compared to temps in the Sahara as compared to temps in GB. And if I am right about this, then I am right in saying they really don’t know the temps of the past, 2x over because you would have to know all the average of all the places on earth from way back. Add to this, if you think in terms of time as far as man or earth, they have NO idea about past weather patterns like hurricane seasons for example. How am I doing?

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

OPEN UP ANWAR
ATTN: All conservatives ...send an email to President@whitehouse.gov and ask him to open up Anwar by Executive Order ...this would drop the price of oil by $30/40 a barrel as speculators would bail out ...neither McCain or Obama will open Anwar so this might be Bush's last chance to show some leadership and regain the respect of the American people .....COLOSSUS

Doc p2
The next problem lies with oceanic circulation. We understand a lot less than we think about oceans, but who cares? It's not as though they take up much of the earth's surface. Oh wait...

Oceans are vitally important because they occupy 2.5 times more surface area than land, for one. Secondly, CO2 absorption is comparatively nonexistent over land, but significant over oceans. Recently (within the last decade), "experts" ran their models and came up with an answer of how much CO2 should be present in sea water. When other scientists actually measured it, the predictions were off a little - by 50%!!

Having run climate models, I know that one technique is to run them repeatedly, with tweaking in between runs, until you get answers you like.

Another secret item is "parameterization" (from the Greek 'para' (wild) and 'meterization' (guess)). When scientists don't fully understand a process, they hard-code parameters into it and hope they are right.

Tropospheric warming should occur with the warming scenarios, yet it doesn't (the troposphere is the lowest level of the atmosphere, extending up to around 40K ft).

Why? Well, it could be that they are so dead set on finding surface warming that they ignore the atmsophere. Which is another point, maybe, just maybe, the millions of cubic yards of concrete around airports where oficial temps are taken, has an effect.

And finally, I did my thesis on the effects of sulfate aerosols on global warming. For a variety of reasons, these particles (released by burning high-sulfur coal) contribute to cooling on a regional scale.

So, how are those effects incorporated into climate models? A. they are omitted entirely.

Doc
I majored in meteorology (B.S. and M.S.), have run climate models, and worked at a huge climate database.

There are so many problems with the methodology that I'm unsure where to begin. But I will try.

As you may or may not know, both weathermen and cilmatologists use models to predict the future. These models are of course based on current actual observations.

Now here is problem #1 of many. The RESOLUTION of the data is not great. And even a SMALL change in intial conditions can cause a large difference in model output (see Butterfly effect or chaos theory link):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Now picture the earth: It is roughly 50M sq miles in surface area. of that, around 71% is covered by ocean (meaning no robust observational network).

Of the 29% comprised of land masses, we have "pretty good" coverage in most of the U.S and western Europe. Observing systems in large areas, such as Siberia, Africa, and big chunks of S. America and Australia, are sparse AT BEST.

So the input into the models is necessarily approximated by assigning one temperature, dew point, and cloud cover to boxes that are (at best) 5km x 5km (or 9 sq miles).

I refer to this methodology as trying to swat a fly with a tennis racquet. The grid boxes are simply too coarse to allow for any kind of reliable answers. Are your daily forecasts, or hurricane forecasts, dead-on each day? Yet we are told these are reliable.

To be continued...


pablo st. cruz
No I did not, they lost me at 'climate models'.
I just don’t see how they can make any accurate predictions due to limited info. How long has man been keeping records of actual yearly temps? How old is the earth? Sorry, but this is a little like the local weather station. The fact is they can not get it right 5 days ahead of time.
How many hurricanes did they predict last season? How many did we have?

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Pablo
Gee, I was told in the 70's that CO2 was going to block the sun's rays, causing massive cooling and all the inherent disasters in conjunction with the cooling. Now I hear the ooposite. Can you scare-mongers and doomsayers please get your stories straight? How about realizing how silly all of you "the world is coming to an end" liberals sound, and start thinking for yourself. I'm begging you to do some self-examination. For goodness sake, you are taking your science lessons from Al Gore! Al Gore! Surely you must realize that a sheltered, pampered, priveleged, divinity school drop-out is not the best source for scientific threats and projections.

Pablo
"The earth is getting warmer because an increase in human population and the huge
increase in the consumption of carbon compounds in the earth (petroleum).There has also been a substantial increase in methane gas released (which is more destructive than CO2) from proportionately more cows, sheep and pigs."

That still doesn't explain Martian warming...but that's probably just a coincidence.

DocTony
"Being a willing participant and card carrying member of the VRWC I intend to continue all the 'politics as usual' and Bipartisanism I can. Can I count on you for the same? I think I can."

Yep.

I forgot parts 2 and 3 of liberal dogma.

2) Republicans are universally stupid; Democrats are brilliant without exception. If a Repub and a Dem ran against each other for president, and both went to Yale at the same time, and the Repub did better, then "grades aren't relevant" (of course, in the reverse scenario, they mean everything). If an (R) and a (D) run against each other, and one went to Yale and later Harvard, and the other flunked out of Divinity School, the latter is brilliant and the fomer is a dunce.

3) NO ONE has ever been picked on like (fill in current Democrat running). Not the guy referred to as "Ape Lincoln", not Jefferson and Jackson, who were mercilessly dogged about their wives/slaves, not Charles Sumner, who was beaten with a cane in the Senate.

Read Senator Rodham's post-mortem in which Katie Couric and her "husband" talk about how "unfair" the press was to her. Simply amazing.

Hey doc
Did you get through the NOAA and American Metrological links I left?

I went to your links. Interesting.

Pablo
"Worldwide there was a significant natural warming trend in the 1980’s and 1990’s as a Solar cycle peaked with lots of sunspots and solar flares"

Correct, and it ended in 1998 for the exact same reason.


pablo st. cruz
I forgot the link to the 31K scienti

I have read on there. Half of them are brain dead and the other half spends there time basket weaving and lying about it. How about a link other than to a mental institution?
Hey, it seems to work for the libs.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean


moronopolitics
I’ll do my best;

I’m guessing that pretty much what he says about Gore’s comments are true so I’ll leave those alone.


The next two links will refute the rest of his conclusions.

There is no significant global warming.
NOAA says there is

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#q3

Worldwide there was a significant natural warming trend in the 1980’s and 1990’s as a Solar cycle peaked with lots of sunspots and solar flares

http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/2007climatechange.html

The American Metrology Society pretty much refutes all of the claims by your local weatherman.

The earth is getting warmer because an increase in human population and the huge
increase in the consumption of carbon compounds in the earth (petroleum).There has also been a substantial increase in methane gas released (which is more destructive than CO2) from proportionately more cows, sheep and pigs.

The elimination of large tracks of forest have reduced the amount of CO2 exchanged to oxygen from the atmosphere to the ground.

Stu (and anyone else)
I get so tired of the "illegitimate war" talk, so let's do history, once again.

Saddam Hussein's Iraq (SHI) invaded Kuwait.

The US led a coalition to kick him out. We did.

SHI signed a cease fire, NOT a peace treaty that placed many obligations on him, to include free access to inspectors, no ADA, ad nauseum.

SHI repeatedly violated said cease fire, which is a violation of International Law.

The UN passed 17 resolutions agains SHI, all with clear cut threats of force if they didn't comply. They did not.

Bipatisan consensus stated SHI was a threat to the region, and if allowed to continue the research at al-Tuwaitha, the US itself.

Let's not forget the Oil for Food scandal that was going on.

Congress approved the "Use of Force" declaration.

So: We have an illegal act of aggresion of invading a neighboring country.

Repeated cease fire violations.

Seventeen (toothless) resolutions by the UN.

A clear cut case of bribery aimed at undercutting sanctions.

Ongoing research into nuclear weapons and reproduction of his chemical weapons.

A coalition of the willing to enforce the resolutions, and liberals think we're the bad guys.

Give me a break. You guys couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

We need global warming,
not Gorebull warring.
The reason that so much of this planet has had drought for so many centuries is that we’ve been in an ice age, and the water needed for normal condensation has been frozen into glaciers. Glaciers are frozen water needed as condensation for barren and frozen lands of this planet, causing drought and flooding. When glaciers melt, some water runs into the oceans. Some water thaws the ground below where the glacier was, and soaks into the ground. Some water evaporates into the upper atmosphere where it becomes normal rainfall for the whole world.

The heat of the sun, and the absence of cold from glaciers and sea ice will cause more water to be evaporated from the oceans, lakes, and rivers into the upper atmosphere than there presently is; and the winds will blow it evenly around the world, providing normal rainfall world-wide, even where there presently is drought, and barren and frozen land, preventing flooding.

The worldwide rainfall will cause long-dormant seeds in barren lands to sprout and grow into new plants: The best way to go green. The new plants will inhale carbon dioxide and exhale oxygen, which we breathe. There will be so many new plants, that we might have to increase the amount of carbon dioxide we generate, to provide enough for all of them

A glacier in Greenland is melting, returning the land to the way it was a millennium ago. Larger crop yields are already the result, and the codfish have returned. Put the UN there.

Snow fell before leaves, and a month before winter started. Parts of the country and the world have record low temperatures and record amounts of snow and ice. We’re entering another ice age. How soon will Greenland be frozen again and the codfish gone? We need global warming as soon as possible.

Pablo
"This Mr. Hawkins is a professional blooger? I should absorb anything he says as fact?"

This Mr. Gore is a professional politician? I should absorb anything he says as fact?


Pablo
I believe your twelfth step of recovery has taken you off the deep end. Such a shame. You seemed like such a nice, little lemming.

MRCMRC
So Stars my blubb??? Huh?

Global Warming
We are now just beginning to see what it would take to prevent the event from happening, and it is not a pretty picture. To prevent the event from happening is going to require aciions that is going to cost a whole lot of money, and will result in a drastic change in how business is conducted in the world, with its attendent effects, and it will affect how we live our lives. Whole categories of jobs will disappear, if we are serious about solving the problem. And what is even worse for my standpoint is, we may make all of these sacrifices, and no one can tell you that the sacrifices will prevent the event from happening. Perhpas, we need to look at this from a completely different angle. I wonder if that is ever goving to happen? Instead of spending all the effort to prevent the event from happening (assuming of course that the theory is right), someone should consider instead thinking about how to live with global warming? Either way, it is going to cost money and will affect our lives. Which is the better alternative, is the question it seems to me.

I forgot the link to the 31K scienti
http://www.oism.org/


Phil
Let's keep things straight. The catch phrase for this election cycle used by Dems and paroted bt the MSM is "Politics as usual". That fits well with the 'Change you can believe in slogans' So we can't talk about anything that Obama has said, done, will do, believes (for now at least) or once believed despite the evidence. If we do, we are 'Politics as usual'.
Being a willing participant and card carrying member of the VRWC I intend to continue all the 'politics as usual' and Bipartisanism I can. Can I count on you for the same? I think I can.

pablo st. cruz
By-the-by moronopolitics, if your are going to use local weathermen as your source for facts on the debate, try and get one who doesn't spout dis-information and outright lies.

I don’t know about everyone else, but I can really see what a “moderate” democrat you are.
Lib mantra rules: 1. If anyone tries to state facts different from yours, call them liars and scoundrels.
2 questions.
Can you prove beyond the shadow of reasonable doubt that he’s lying?
Are you against drilling in this country?


http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

And a quick question
This Mr. Hawkins is a professional blooger? I should absorb anything he says as fact?

I'll bet he's listening to Rush right now, taking notes and getting ready for his next attact on Demo-commie-libs, which may sound like comments by the Maharishi himself.

Doc Tony
I've already made my path through recovery, but thank you for your concern.

Just because I asked a question does not mean I have a theory, yet!

HAHAHA and then the proof. Weeebang

DocTony
Actually, the democrats think we should have several dozen ways to count votes, then we should pick the one by which their candidate wins each time (although I'm not sure how they could have rigged it to help Mondale).

I always say in American politics and the media there are certain unchanging, but dual, definitions. For example, "dirty campaigning" means two things:

For Republicans, it means bringing up facts about a Democrat's voting record.

For Democrats, if they call a Republican a scum-sucking, bootlicking, stupid chimpanzee who has sex with animals, that's okay.

Another example is a "controversial", or "close", or "hotly-disputed" election. Again, two separate meanings.

The 2000 Florida vote was controversial because a Republican ultimately won.

In 2004, Bush won Ohio by 118,000 votes out of 5.6 million votes cast (51-49). That was a nail-biter and very controversial. Lawsuits, recounts, and provisional ballots were all discussed ad nauseum. In fact, CBS still hasn't projected him as the winner there.

In 2004, Kerry won Pennsylvania by 144,000 votes out of out of 5.7 million votes cast (51-49). That was a clear-cut victory for Kerry, with no recounts planned, or mentioned.

In 2004, Kerry won Wisconsin by 11,500 votes out of out of 2.9 million votes cast (50-49). That was a clear-cut victory for Kerry, with no recounts planned, or mentioned.

See the difference now?



31,000 Scientists have signed a petition
Be careful on this one. There are some dead ones on the list.

A lot of Veternary doctors too. Research the gentlemen who head this illustrous institution. 7,000 sq. ft of research labs.

I see this quote every where with the anti-science people and nobody ever checks it out.

By-the-by moronopolitics, if your are going to use local weathermen as your source for facts on the debate, try and get one who doesn't spout dis-information and outright lies.

Hint to Pablo
"The only thing I am saying, and I am not a conspiracy theorist, is the number of alerts and the timing of them could cause one to question if they were politically motivated"

That makes you a conspiracy theorist. The first step on the path of recovery is accepting your diagnosis. Dump the denial, Pablo.

Standshisground
>Even liberal columnist Leonard Pitts, definitely no member of the VRWC, said after the 2004 election that Democrats needed to swallow the bitter pill of having to accept the fact that George Bush was the duly elected, legitimate president of the United States. <

Tell me about it! All those brilliant, intelligent men and women who share 98% of their DNA in common with chimpanzees who would have made fine candidates, republican ones even, and we ended up with someone who shares 99.5% of his DNA with our closest living ape cousin.

Bitter pill did not begin to describe it.

Stuart

Salman Pak
Hard Thought,

I have the same problem (even WITH the KH-11 satellite photos of the site) explaining the terror training facility at Salman Pak to lib-tards. Saddam's security forces TRAINED Al-Quaeda and Hamas thugs to take over airliners with only edged weapons and bluffs of explosives. A captured Iraqi intelligence officer verified this. THERE'S you link to Iraq! It's also the most spike story in the mainstream media since 2003.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

In general
I voted for Keary. But I didn't like it. I have no problem with the outcome of the electorate. I will probably vote for McCain.

The only thing I am saying, and I am not a conspiracy theorist, is the number of alerts and the timing of them could cause one to question if they were politically motivated.

Hard Thought
>I never stated he had a nuclear arsenal. I stated he was less than a year away.<

Which he obviously wasn't.

>I never stated he had the uranium to build it, but the British stated he was trying to acquire it.<

Like attempted murder, what kind of crime is that? Attempted uranium purchase? Good enough evidence to invade a sovereign state?

Stuart

The truth about Global Warming.
The earth has now been cooling for 10 straight years. It's the sun, stupid. http://www.kusi.com/weather/colemanscorner/19842304.html


AZPhil
>So if I understand you, the Founding Fathers invented the electoral college around 1788 to benefit a party that didn't exist until 66 years later? And no Republican benefited from this system until 1876, or 88 years after the electoral college was first used.<

I quote myself from above:
“‘Minority’ presidents before Bush were in 1824 (Adams, a pre-Republican), 1876 (Hayes, a Republican) and 1888 (Harrison, yep you guessed it, Republican). “

You can add Bush in 2000… not a Democrat.

Stuart

Regarding my post at 12:19 pm
It seems when I submitted it, somehow some of it got deleted while it was being posted to TownHall. I addressed both pablo and Stu. My part to pablo ended with the words "help justify their existence". But most of what I had to say to Stu seems to have gotten deleted in the process of electronic transfer to this thread, so that's why what follows the word "existence" will seem incongruous with what I composed before. Sorry, but I have no control over the technical aspects of the posting process.

Chuck
Read John Coleman's input above. turns out now we know about sunspot activity.

And one minor correction - the imminent Ice Age theory reatined credibility well into the 1970s, maybe all the way till 1978 or so.

Stu
Let's take your 'logic' to the next level. Let's use square mile land mass as the determining factor for who is POTUS. Let's use number of states. Let's use number of people who own a dog. Let's use the number of people who regularly attend church. Let's use the number of pimples on the azzes of the azzes who voted for Gore.

But NEVER, under any circumstances, should we use what is actually written in the US Constitution to determine who should be POTUS. Your remarks are what define Fascism and Marxism. Change the rules to suit yourself and then attemopt to support your claim on the notion that YOU know what is best--damn the rules.

Lady, you are hysterical. Why don't you go home and curse you mother for raising such a fool and spare the rest of us your idiocy.

Global Warming
In the 1960's the scientists were sure we were headed for another ice age. Current global warming alarmists say that's because they just didn't know how to measure things accurately then. That means they've only collected "accurate" data for a few 10's of years. Statistically insignificant in geological terms.

They've "correlated" this statistically insignificant data with ice core samples, etc. which they say gives them an accurate long term view. The fundamental problem is the correlation. You can't judge cause and effect from correlation. Maybe the rise in CO2 is from the global warming, not the other way around. The earth has certainly been hotter and colder than today in its long past without humans around. The ice records do prove that.

So you can count me among the skeptics.

pablo st. cruz and Stu
A lot of us conservatives - myself included - thought establishing a separate Homeland Security department was a stupid idea to begin with. I thought Pat Buchanan had the definitive comment at the time it was proposed right after 9/11: "I'm sure that Tom Ridge is a good man, but a separate Homeland Security office? I thought I was ALREADY getting homeland security with the hundreds of billions of dollars we send to the Pentagon". It certainly echoed MY thoughts about it at the time. And frankly, a lot of us conservatives, again including myself, thought this color-coded alert system was even MORE stupid. As far as why HS was issuing alerts that were basically meaningless? Well, governmental departments do a lot of stupid and unnecessary things to help justify their existence. Either put your sentiments into concrete action - or else grow up and be a man about this. Even liberal columnist Leonard Pitts, definitely no member of the VRWC, said after the 2004 election that Democrats needed to swallow the bitter pill of having to accept the fact that George Bush was the duly elected, legitimate president of the United States.

Stu
I'll write this real slow so you can keep up.

I never stated he had a nuclear arsenal. I stated he was less than a year away.

I never stated he had the uranium to build it, but the British stated he was trying to acquire it.

Once you have the knowledge how, all you need is the raw materials.

The development was on-going.

Tell me about Georges Sada, now.

Stu
"Not really. Maybe unpopular republican candidates need a little tilting of the playing field to help them get elected. I am full of charity and kindness for the poor pitiable creatures."

As considerate as that is, your theory needs a little work. The electoral college was put in place in time for the 1788 election of George Washington. It has been in place ever since. It was initially put in place because often 3-4 people would run for president at once.

Skipping ahead a little, mull on this: The Republican Party wasn't even created till 1854, and they first elected a president in 1860.

So if I understand you, the Founding Fathers invented the electoral college around 1788 to benefit a party that didn't exist until 66 years later? And no Republican benefited from this system until 1876, or 88 years after the electoral college was first used.

Now you people (liberals) usually argue against gun control, for example, because the Founding Fathers couldn't have envisioned automatic rifles and so forth. But they could not only envision a Republican Party being created later, they could ALL agree upon, and plan ahead, to help it? I am speechless.

Stu
…then tell me that the US and UK did not invade Iraq against the wishes of the UN.

Hey pard, don’t worry about the UN. Fact is they were too busy paying for 12 and 13 Y/O prostitutes. And all the way up to kofi’s son, they were busy making money in the oil for food scam. That’s why we really went in to Iraq. Just to feed the people because the UN was busy making money to spend on young prostitutes to care about people and babies going hungry.


http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean



confusing liberalism and intelligence!
I've seen some harsh things said about liberals and intelligence on this post and i disagree, sort of. As an observer in real life and in labs, I find liberalism is actually a nullifier of intelligence. It is in essence, compassion without common sense, and unbridled naivete. How else can you explain the excitement over another empty suit like Obama? He is nothing more than a non-caucasion John edwards. It's really the naivete that is so dangerous. It kills intellectual curiosity. I honestly believe if you measured a liberal's intellectual curiosity one day, gave them a lobotomy the next, and then measured their curiosity again the day after there would be no measurable change.

I'll tell you right now how you will be able to spot who is voting democrat and who votes republican at the booth. The Republican will be holding his nose while the democrat will look like Terry Schiavo. Bright eyes, bright smile but not much going on in the background. As an atheist I can say this for if i weren't I would fear God would strike me down for insulting poor Terry. Senility over Marxism in '08, vote McCain!

Stndgrnd and Clay
"The American people are stupid and easily manipulated with fear, which is why they need the more intelligent liberals to lead them."

If 70% of the US population believed that Saddam had some tie to 9/11 then I would agree that they are stupid.

Stngrnd - "So what about how many terror alerts there were or weren't before and after Election Day 2004? Who was even taking them seriously, anyway?"
Well,first off, if they didn't mean anything why did they keep issueing them right up to the election? And why did they stop after the election? And why did Tom Ridge quit soon after and say that he was not pleased with the way the alerts were approved? Guess who had the most influence on when they were issued? HHMMMMM

Standshisground
>Actually, I can think of an even better solution to your discontent with the present way of choosing a president than the one I just described: get the Democratic Party to put up presidential candidates with enough broad-based appeal that getting 270 electoral votes is no problem! Issue solved.<

Or just have a lottery. Draw the presidency out of a hat. Makes as much sense as giving the job to the second most popular candidate!

Stuart

Stu
Clay
"Would 9/11 have happened if Gore had been president? There is no point in that speculation really."

>I would agree with you partially. 9/11 would have more than likely happened nontheless. It is the response that would have been different.<


True! He would have blamed it on global warming!

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Standshisground
>You still seem to be hung up on the Electoral College. <

Not really. Maybe unpopular republican candidates need a little tilting of the playing field to help them get elected. I am full of charity and kindness for the poor pitiable creatures.

Stuart

Clay
"You mean the Bush who ignored the UN (as usual) and invaded Iraq in order to topple Saddam?"

>How does going before the UN and getting resolutions against Sadaam Hussein approved by the UN itself ignoring the UN? <

The attempt to get UN backing for military action failed.
Read here:

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/scriraq.html#2003
(just above ‘2002’)

…then tell me that the US and UK did not invade Iraq against the wishes of the UN.

Stuart

Mr. Hawkins does mangle the truth a bit
He states;
"However, the British Government did believe Saddam Hussein had "sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa," and moreover, a "separate report by the US Senate Intelligence Committee said...that the US also had similar information from 'a number of intelligence reports.'" In addition, the British Butler report concluded that Iraq did try to buy uranium in Nigeria in 1999 and that George Bush's 16 words were "well-founded"

The Butler report said;
"Its main conclusion was that key intelligence used to justify the war with Iraq has been shown to be unreliable"

I think Mr. Hawkins was actually referencing the British "Semptember Dossier" which has that quote in it.

Stu redux
Actually, I can think of an even better solution to your discontent with the present way of choosing a president than the one I just described: get the Democratic Party to put up presidential candidates with enough broad-based appeal that getting 270 electoral votes is no problem! Issue solved.

Georgetwin and baseballdoc:
Good to see you on this thread. Georgetwin, I loved your first line of your reply to Vic: "What has a creosote post ever done to you to deserve such an insult?"

Robert
"GW Bush lied to the american people on the reason to go to war. This has been proven, and he should be held to account for the 4100 + deaths the he created ( not to mention 100,000 of injured). "

Have at it. Call your girl Red Nancy and tell her to get on it.

MRCMRC
Must be a lib. Your post made no sense what so ever. Are you hanging with hal drunkahue? Maybe into his pvt stock? Little early don't you think?

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Stu & Mr. Beowulf
Actually Professor Bray's research does not indicate the percentage of strongly vs. strongly disagreed.

Unless you have the report. Also Professor Bray sent the survey to his selection of scientists which could swing the responses in a particular direction.

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17181

As a moderate Democrat I do not like some people’s rather bold assertions that anyone that is not a conservative or conservative enough does not like this country. I do not know of anyone in my fairly long time on this earth of either persuasion that does not love this country.

John Coleman
Let's see what the Weather Channel founder and 31K scientists, including 9000 PfHd's, think:

http://www.kusi.com/weather/colemanscorner/19842304.html

Stu
You still seem to be hung up on the Electoral College. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does anyone else out there other than me recall how Senator-elect Hillary Clinton was saying, during the recount phase of the 2000 presidential election, that once she took her Senate seat, she was going to work to abolish the Electoral College and replace it with a pure popular-vote system. How come once Hillary was actually SEATED in the Senate, we've heard no more talk from her about this issue ever since? What "epiphany" did she come to on this to cause her to drop her infatuation with changing the way presidential elections are decided? I suspect it's what I said earlier: because any small electoral vote state Democrat in the Senate or the House of Representatives that went along with this would have been handing over their seat to a Republican at the next election - and Hillary came to realize this. Or much more likely in my opinion, her fellow Democrats brought this to her attention and told her in no uncertain terms to STHU on this issue forevermore.

Yes, Stu, we conservatives like the presidential election system as it's currently prescribed in the Constitution just fine. Since YOU'RE the one who seems to be unhappy with it, then join together with all your fellow libs who undoubtedly share your opinion and lobby the Democratic Party to act to change it; our system gives you every right to do so. And see how far you get.

LYING AS A STRATEGY

.....Only Christian based morallity considers truth a virtue and lying sinful ...

.....To the Left and other cultures (Islam) lying is a means to an end and is perfectly justifiable to accomplish a desired outcome ...

.....When good and evil come into conflict ...the playing field is always skewed in favor of evil ...when good tries to work with or compromise with evil ...evil always wins .....COLOSSUS

Vic
What has a creosote post ever done to you to deserve such an insult?

BTW, Don’t tell any Liberals. But The Black Helicopters are dumping water in The Rivers in Iowa to cause the flooding. SHHHHH! Keep it quiet!

Stu
"You mean the Bush who ignored the UN (as usual) and invaded Iraq in order to topple Saddam?"

How does going before the UN and getting resolutions against Sadaam Hussein approved by the UN itself ignoring the UN?

maldain
>Did you read the press release that you linked to? I'm just curious because in no place in that press release did Bush or the Bush administration say Hussien played any roll in 9/11. <

What are the American people to make of this?:

“We know that Iraq and al Qaeda have had high-level contacts that go back a decade. “

If the speech was about the supposed Iraqi threat, why does al Qaeda get a mention?

Stuart

Get it Right
GW Bush lied to the american people on the reason to go to war. This has been proven, and he should be held to account for the 4100 + deaths the he created ( not to mention 100,000 of injured).

This president is the worst we have seen and nothing can change that. We need a change, not McBush!

Re: Stu in post #38
Did you read the press release that you linked to? I'm just curious because in no place in that press release did Bush or the Bush administration say Hussien played any roll in 9/11. What they said, quite accurately, is that because of the 9/11 attack by AQ we can no longer tolerate the threat that Iraq does pose. That doesn't link Hussien to 9/11 anymore than Kennedy's announcement of the Cuban Missile crisis linked the Soviet Union to Perl Harbor. One action takes place because of an unrelated previous action from which we learned a lesson in blood.

pablo st cruz
So what about how many terror alerts there were or weren't before and after Election Day 2004? Who was even taking them seriously, anyway? The plain and simple fact is, in the 2004 presidential election, John Kerry had every opportunity to make his case to the nation that he was just as capable as George Bush, if not more so, in keeping our nation safe from terrorists. Kerry obviously didn't convince enough Americans on this. Therefore, Kerry has only himself to blame on this one.

The 2004 election campaign should serve as a teaching guide to liberals for this year's election campaign. Just because people are tired of the status quo of the moment - as many were in 2004, and as John Kerry clearly believed they were - doesn't mean that they're automatically going to vote for change, ANY ind of change, to replace it. My belief is that Kerry's foundational belief in the 2004 campaign was that the country wanted to fire the Republicans in the White House so bad that he had to do little to convince them to vote them out, that they were ready to accept ANY alternative to what was already there. Barack Obama better not make the same assumption for 2008 - or on November 5, he'll be back at his Senate job wondering what could possibly have gone wrong.

Clay
"Well Bush DID con the American public into believing that there was a link between Iraq and 9/11 and that in itself is despicable."

>Poppycock. Bush went before the UN and obtained several resolutions before attacking Iraq to get Hussein to comply with previous resolution with respect to inspection of his WMD arsenal. That was the motiviation behind the war with Iraq. <

There was not a resolution to go to war. If there had been then most of the western world would have joined in. Bush did it exactly as I said above.

>The liberal lie that it was about some nefarious tie between Hussein and 9/11 is pure unadulterated BS.<

I posted a link to Bush’s speech in which he clearly made the link. It is still on the Whitehouse website.

"The British government had not learned such a thing. That makes it a lie doesn’t it?"

>No. The lie is your statement.<

Huh? Is that an argument?

"Sure. It’s a strange kind of democracy though and it is clearly geared to electing barely electable Republicans!"

>You remind me of whining that Leiberman made regarding the Electoral College and how it needed to be done away with.<

Well it is republicans who seem to have benefitted all four times that the people voted for the other guy, so I guess you are in favour of not changing it.

"There are always many factors governing electability but Bush reinvented himself as a wartime president with the fear factor a major element."

>Ah, liberal arrogance at it's best. The American people are stupid and easily manipulated with fear, which is why they need the more intelligent liberals to lead them. ; )<

OK then. No disagreement here ; ). Obama is completely right about folk turning to religion and guns, even if he was an idiot to say it out loud!

Stuart

liberal and the truth
Anyone trying to convince a liberal of the truth is a waste of time.

MRCMRC
"Subject: lying
republicans have mastered the art of idiocy. so stars my blubb , make sense of course not . any more then the frst sentnence of this silliness makes sense. it is supposed to lead you into the story and give you ome idea of what it is about as any 6th grade wnglish student can tell you. instead it is so patently ridiculous , as is the rest of the article that it should, if you had the intelligence of a gnat, turn you right off. it wont for most of you, but that says a lot more about you then it does about democratss"

Are you insane? Drunk?

Stu
"Well Bush DID con the American public into believing that there was a link between Iraq and 9/11 and that in itself is despicable."

Poppycock. Bush went before the UN and obtained several resolutions before attacking Iraq to get Hussein to comply with previous resolution with respect to inspection of his WMD arsenal. That was the motiviation behind the war with Iraq. The liberal lie that it was about some nefarious tie between Hussein and 9/11 is pure unadulterated BS.

"The British government had not learned such a thing. That makes it a lie doesn’t it?"

No. The lie is your statement.

"Sure. It’s a strange kind of democracy though and it is clearly geared to electing barely electable Republicans!"

You remind me of whining that Leiberman made regarding the Electoral College and how it needed to be done away with.

"There are always many factors governing electability but Bush reinvented himself as a wartime president with the fear factor a major element."

Ah, liberal arrogance at it's best. The American people are stupid and easily manipulated with fear, which is why they need the more intelligent liberals to lead them. ; )


Clay
"Would 9/11 have happened if Gore had been president? There is no point in that speculation really."

>I would agree with you partially. 9/11 would have more than likely happened nontheless. It is the response that would have been different.<

There are some who have argued the case for it being far less likely under Gore. You are right, it is imponderable.

>Personally speaking, I am glad it was Bush at the helm and not Al "the world is coming to an end" Gore. ; )<

You mean the Gore who was more popular than Bush? The Gore who, although he comes across as a bit arrogant has more foreign affairs acumen in his little finger than Bush had in his whole administration (before he sent Condy everywhere to do the job properly)? You mean the Bush who ignored the UN (as usual) and invaded Iraq in order to topple Saddam? The same Saddam who ran (albeit murderously) a secular nation and was the only thing stopping islamic jihad in Iraq? The Iraq that has been allowed since to fill with zealous islamic extremists, destabilising further the middle east? The same middle east that people with the president’s ear, like Hagee, would like to see erupt in a big apocalyptic fireball? You are not looking at any kind of liberal / democratic fantasy there! When the nutters have finished with it maybe the rational people might have their planet back? I've lost the ability to put a smiling face on all that nowdays!

Bush has declared victory in Iraq and it is as bizarre a victory as his election victory was in 2000. I can’t think of a time when the US was so poorly served by its president.

Stuart

Mother of 4
AMEN, sister! I couldn't have put it any better myself.

I've said on many a post of mine in the past that it should be EXPECTED that liberals would lie and do so without conscience. Given that the vast majority of them are secular in PRACTICE, if not necessarily in CONFESSION, when you don't believe in anything beyond this life and don't fear an eternal judgment, why SHOULDN'T you lie to get what you want at the moment.

When I confront a ridiculous or flat-out-false statement from some liberal poster here on TH with facts, I'm not naive enough to believe that he/she will actually ACCEPT them; I just like to see what they have to say for themselves when confronted with such a challenge. I like it all the more when what I'm able to confront them with to rebut one of their arguments is THEIR OWN WORDS from something ELSE they also said. When I do this, as I expect, they simply ignore my challenge.

The best example I can think of that shows how willingly and knowingly liberals traffic in lies is the esteem Al Sharpton enjoys to this day in liberal circles. Only the most devoted Sharpton acolyte even TRIES to deny anymore that the incident that really made Sharpton a national figure - the supposed rape of Tawana Brawley - was a blatant lie. Sharpton even accused an assistant New York DA, Steve Pagonis, of being a participant in the "rape" - and was sued for defamation by Pagonis, lost the case, and was ordered to pay Pagonis a sizable judgment, which to the best of knowledge he never has. Yet to this day Sharpton is an icon in the Democratic Party. Why? Of course, look at how many libs believe George Bush - not Al Qaeda - destroyed the WTC on 9/11. Which all the more affirms what you wrote about how liberals encourage everyone to construct his/her own reality.

To Mr. Badboy
I am sorry that you find my posts offensive. I am just opening up the discussion to other theories that may or may not be proven factual in the future.

standhisground
Post 14 saved me the time. Thanks. Post 15, in my mind, says it all about the difference between liberals & conservatives. Liberals do see the world upside down. Come on. To almost nominate such a clearly corrupt and despicable person such as Hillary made me feel like I must be on another planet. Hillary is their shining star?

Also, let's give credit where it is due in regards to pronouncing nuclear. We have former (thand God) President Jimmy Carter to thank for the mis-pronunciation. Never really heard him ridiculed for it though as a college student (liberal) at the time, it bothered me.

Nice try
I'm hoping that the dialogue with Stu will serve as a prototype of how when a conservative engages a liberal and cites opinions backed by facts, it does not matter. NOTHING, absolutely nothing, will cause them to grant you one shred of credibility or concede that you have any point to make, much less agree with you on anything. It doesn't matter what source you have on your side or what facts you can call on, it will not move them one iota. You are, in effect, arguing with the rough equivalent of someone's religious belief.

I will say, however, that Stu is departing from the liberal template in that he is attempting to fight back with his own ideas and is not resorting to simply relying on insults or ad hominum attacks when his opinion is challenged. And I applaud that, at least. BTW, the same goes for Lon. Disagree with him 180 degrees, but he presents his side in a reasonable manner.

beowulfe
>1) We don't live in a democracy, thankfully. We live in a constitutional republic...at least for the time being. Amusingly, Democrats THEMSELVES don't even believe in democracy, but fascism. Just look at the way they run their primaries. They've set them up such that the elections and caucuses are absolutely meaningless because they divy up equal delegates to the two major candidates regardless of who wins them. Instead, a collection of "elite", non-elected "super-delegates" are appointed to decide who shall be the candidate in the general election.<

OK. I take it then you oppose the’ imposition’ of democracy on Iraq.

>2) Only about 9% of climate scientists "strongly agree" that global warming is mostly due to anthropogenic sources -- about the same amount who "strongly disagree" -- according to the survey performed by Professor Dennis Bray. More scientists "strongly agree" with the notion of "intelligent design", so are you, Stu, willing to agree that ID is also a "consensus" view?<

It is an idiotic question to ask of a scientist. What does strongly agree mean? That they think the evidence is a bit overwhelming or completely overwhelming? ‘Scientists’ who believe in intelligent design are idiotic.

>3) Technically, WMDs WERE found in Iraq. Sarin, ricin, mustard gas, etc... Just not in the quantities that EVERY SINGLE intelligence agency on Earth -- INCLUDING IRAQ'S -- thought they had. <

Sorry?? The Iraqi intelligence agencies didn’t know how much mustard gas their own country was allegedly hoarding? Now I think you will believe anything. My memory of it is they found a truck that could have been used to make some chemical products. But the tank full of petrol would have been the most dangerous thing about it. Would you care to reference that bit about the Iraqis and their ignorance of their own weaponry or lack of it?

Stuart

Stu
"Would 9/11 have happened if Gore had been president? There is no point in that speculation really."

I would agree with you partially. 9/11 would have more than likely happened nontheless. It is the response that would have been different.

Personally speaking, I am glad it was Bush at the helm and not Al "the world is coming to an end" Gore. ; )

Hard Thought
>Until you go look up the nuclear research site at al-Tuwaitha where even the New York Times stated that Saddam was less than a year from a weapon and also look up and study the testimony of Georges Sada who was the fourth highest ranking officer in the Iraqi Air Force and states he ferried the chemical weapons (WMD) to Syria, I refuse to confront your willful ignorance.<

Shall we ask the question again then. Where is all this uranium and nuclear arsenal now? It was never there. Are you claiming a big victory for invading and stopping it from happening? What did you think Saddam wanted you to think?

Stuart

Nancy
I'll even go you one better, I'll give you the source of the material in my post I'm presuming (the 6:46 am one) you want to quote in your blog.

First, full disclosure: I actually modified one of those aphorisms from the original source, although I'd argue that the modification is just as applicable as what it was from the original. The way it originally read from my source was "To be a liberal, you have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than nuclear weapons in the hands of the Red Chinese".

My source, or so it was identified in what was given me those years ago, was an excerpt from a work entitled "A Philosophy for Liars and Lawyers", by Trey Garrison.

Hilarious
"republicans have mastered the art of idiocy. so stars my blubb , make sense of course not . any more then the frst sentnence of this silliness makes sense. it is supposed to lead you into the story and give you ome idea of what it is about as any 6th grade wnglish student can tell you. instead it is so patently ridiculous , as is the rest of the article that it should, if you had the intelligence of a gnat, turn you right off. it wont for most of you, but that says a lot more about you then it does about democratss "

Gentlemen, if I didn't know any better, I'd say we have another Loyal Democrat in our midsts. This has to be the best thing that Townhall has ever brought me. BRAVO!

Hey Stu-pid
1) We don't live in a democracy, thankfully. We live in a constitutional republic...at least for the time being. Amusingly, Democrats THEMSELVES don't even believe in democracy, but fascism. Just look at the way they run their primaries. They've set them up such that the elections and caucuses are absolutely meaningless because they divy up equal delegates to the two major candidates regardless of who wins them. Instead, a collection of "elite", non-elected "super-delegates" are appointed to decide who shall be the candidate in the general election.

2) Only about 9% of climate scientists "strongly agree" that global warming is mostly due to anthropogenic sources -- about the same amount who "strongly disagree" -- according to the survey performed by Professor Dennis Bray. More scientists "strongly agree" with the notion of "intelligent design", so are you, Stu, willing to agree that ID is also a "consensus" view?

3) Technically, WMDs WERE found in Iraq. Sarin, ricin, mustard gas, etc... Just not in the quantities that EVERY SINGLE intelligence agency on Earth -- INCLUDING IRAQ'S -- thought they had.

Nancy
I'm not sure which "brilliant" post of mine you've alluded to, but I'm going to guess it was my post of 6:46 am "To Be A Liberal". If in fact that's the post you want to quote on your blog, absolutely, you have my blessing to do so - as does ANYONE who wants to disseminate what I put in that post. If in fact you're referring to a different post, however, than the one at 6:46 am, you STILL have my blessing to quote anything you want from ANYTHING I've posted.

the 5 "lies"
The 5th supposed lie is not really a liberal position at all, but more of a fringe thing whether right or left. I suppose there is a trivial sense in which Bush let 9/11 happen in that he was president and didn't do the things that would have stopped it from happening. And that might explain why surveys have put the number of people who think Bush let 9/11 happen so high.

But the idea that Bush knew of the plot in some form and did not try to stop it is nonsense that is not pushed by any mainstream liberals. Certainly you won't find anyone respectable giving it credence after the fashion of the Foster was murdered, or Clinton was involved in drug running conspiracies from the last presidency.

MRCMRC...
wrote, "so stars my blubb , make sense of course not"

Try writing something readable. Spell check can be helpful but you have to be at least close in order for it to work and it can't help you with composition.

Were you MRAMRA before you were MRBMRB before you became MRCMRC? Do you know the next letter in the alphabet?

the 5 "lies"
similar story applies to the 16 words. Some of Bush's advocates tried to get the claim that Husein sought yellowcake from Niger into an earlier speech, but were stopped by the intelligence agencies on the grounds they did not believe it was true. So we get this contorted "The British learned that.." followed by the claim that our intelligence agencies did not believe to be true. Is that a lie or merely a deception? Suppose that I have no basis for thinking Hawkins is a liar, but I find a critic of Hawkins who says he is. Am I lying or just deceiving if I say "Jones learned that Hawkins is a liar"? Note in normal English you only learn things that are true, so I am certainly trying to trick you into thinking there is evidence that the claim is true. But I suppose technically it might not be a lie.

the 5 "lies"
Questions about whether Bush lied or was merely deceptive tend to be hair splitting ones similar to Clinton with his weird use of definitions.

Bush did paint an inaccurate picture of what the intelligence agencies were telling him (particularly with regard to the agreement, but sometimes on the content). So we had the administration warning us about mushroom clouds while the intelligence agencies were telling us Hussein was not a nuclear threat.

But it is true that Bush's worse sin on this point was not caring whether what he said was true. The information that the Niger story was a fraud apparently did not reach Cheney because he didn't care whether the story was true, so there was no reason to tell him it wasn't.

It should be noted that contrary to Hawkins claim above Clinton did not see the same evidence that Bush saw, and instead trusted the inaccurate summaries that the administration gave to Congress. That is a large part of the reason she is not the Democratic nominee for president. The Democrats who did read all of the available evidence tended to vote against authorization since it told a less compelling story than Bush did.

the 5 "lies"
As far as the vote count goes, there were different vote counts done using different methods that the local boards might have settled on, and different methods produced different winners. So it is true that Liberals who claim that allowing the recount to go through would definitely have resulted in a Gore win are wrong. But then those who claim it definitely would have resulted in a confirmation of the Bush win are wrong as well. The point of allowing a definitive count is to have a definitive count.

On Global Warming there is a pretty solid scientific consensus. The fact that if one expands the definition of a scientist and takes a scientific claim with political implications one can always get a long list of people claiming to be scientists and claiming a dispute should hardly be news at this point. That technique should have been discredited with the "there is a scientific contraversy over evolution" nonsense.

To Standshisground
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! May I quote you on my blog??

Pablo St. Troll...
Yer a freakin' moron. Your troll attempt fails.
Now get lost.

High School Curriculum
Add two to this list:

That the Space Program (particularly the moon landing) was a hoax, and

Israel is the worst violator of human rights in the world,

and you have the seven pillars of today's public high school curriculum.

Yes the British did...
believe Saddam Hussein had "sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa," click on the underlined words in blue and it takes you to FactCheck.org. Here is part of what it says.

The Butler report said British intelligence had "credible" information -- from several sources -- that a 1999 visit by Iraqi officials to Niger was for the purpose of buying uranium:

Butler Report: It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.

The Butler Report affirmed what the British government had said about the Niger uranium story back in 2003, and specifically endorsed what Bush said as well.

Butler Report: By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa” was well-founded.

Standhisground
Regarding the 2044 election and just as a side note. Remember all those "Terror Alerts" up to the election? There were like 13 of them. How come they stopped so quickly after the election?

Where did the story about the "Yellow Cake" originally come from?

Stu
Until you go look up the nuclear research site at al-Tuwaitha where even the New York Times stated that Saddam was less than a year from a weapon and also look up and study the testimony of Georges Sada who was the fourth highest ranking officer in the Iraqi Air Force and states he ferried the chemical weapons (WMD) to Syria, I refuse to confront your willful ignorance.

Do the freaking research!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no one is entitled to their own facts.

And yours are just plain wrong.

Top 5 myths ABOUT liberals
5. Liberals care about people. This is a big lie. They only care about communism.
4. Liberals are intelligent.
Liberals actually have the IQ of a creosote post. This has been proven by clinical tests. The creosote posts consistently scored higher on verbal tests.
3. Liberals believe in freedom for all people. Liberals believe in CONTROLLING all people and brook no dissent from the party line.
2. Liberals are creative.
Liberals can not create. They only steal that which has been created by others.
1. And the number one myth is……
Liberals have a brain. We asked the noted authority on brain possession scarecrow. He said that before he visited Oz and the man behind the curtain his head was full of straw. After the song with Dorothy the straw was replaced with a working brain and LO; he became a conservative!

Why is it a surprise?
The big question I see here is why conservatives are surprised when people who, as a matter of principle, deny the existence of objective truth lie to achieve their goals?

People who reject moral standards lie. Expecting them to tell the truth or to change their course when confronted with truth is silly. After all, left-liberals continually proclaim each person's right to construct his/her own reality.

In that environment lies are inevitable and the only hope for change is the fact that reality will at some point rise up and BITE. Those that survive the experience learn and grow conservative.

JFP
>Hard Thought has already said it, but I'll repeat it. The British government did believe that, so where is the lie?<

Bush did not say the British believed it, he said they learned it. Actually they hadn’t.

>Also, what will you do when global warming turns out not to be happening? Will you admit that we were lied to and that people were conning us? I bet not. At least one example of lying has already occurred. Until last August, we were always being told that the most recent year was the warmest year on record. But then someone pointed out that the calculations were wrong and that the warmest year was 1998 and that 1934 was also a very warm year, too. Why doesn't this count as a lie? <

What does it matter what the records say for individual years? What does “1934 was also a very warm year” mean?

Stuart

DavidM
>Bush has never linked Saddam and 9/11. Period. <

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8. html

Stuart

MCMRC
Were you intentionally trying to be funny or does your BDS and hatred of all things American make you that stupid?

Use a spell checker...it's allowed.....

Stu
Hard Thought has already said it, but I'll repeat it. The British government did believe that, so where is the lie?

Also, what will you do when global warming turns out not to be happening? Will you admit that we were lied to and that people were conning us? I bet not.

At least one example of lying has already occurred. Until last August, we were always being told that the most recent year was the warmest year on record. But then someone pointed out that the calculations were wrong and that the warmest year was 1998 and that 1934 was also a very warm year, too.

Why doesn't this count as a lie?

lying
republicans have mastered the art of idiocy. so stars my blubb , make sense of course not . any more then the frst sentnence of this silliness makes sense. it is supposed to lead you into the story and give you ome idea of what it is about as any 6th grade wnglish student can tell you. instead it is so patently ridiculous , as is the rest of the article that it should, if you had the intelligence of a gnat, turn you right off. it wont for most of you, but that says a lot more about you then it does about democratss

Stu
Maybe you haven't been following the news lately. You say that "Maybe you should suggest initiating an impeachment to Democrat leaders". Dennis Kucinich has been pushing this very action for a couple of years, and just had a motion to bring articles of impeachment against Bush sent to a House subcommittee for further action - a subcommittee controlled by Democrats but which the news services were saying weren't expected to take action on Kucinich's motion prior to the end of Bush's term. I'll let YOU and your fellow liberals explain why Democrats are too cowardly to do to George Bush what the House in 1974 was in the process of doing to Richard Nixon, given that the Dems have charge Bush with getting us into a war based on a lie and given that, as I've already enlightened you, one of the very counts of impeachment the House was considering in 1974 against Richard Nixon - a count that was drafted with the help of Hillary Clinton, I might add - was lying to the American people.

Oh, and if Bush was able to successfully sell fear to win re-election in 2004: I guess it shows that a sizable proportion of your fellow countrymen must be as dumb as you libs accuse Bush of being. By the way, this site shows that you are sending your posts from Alabama. Given that Alabama voted twice for Bush, how can you stand being in a state among people you must have nothing for contempt for?

Audi10 is right on
My dad used to teach that the world does not owe one a living, a lesson the lib boomers were absent for.

I taught mine that we all come into the world wet, naked and stupid, our parents are responsible for civilizing us and turning us into responsible citizens, what we do with the only life we will ever have is up to us.

My kids all put themselves through college, Navy CPO's didn't make much 30 years ago.
All are successful businessmen,one providing 100K jobs for around 80 people.

To liberals he is evil, lives in a nice house, better than theirs, evil, must "give back" why? never took anything that wasn't his to begin with.

Liberals are whiny little children who must have their hands held to survive, "metrosexuals" [read half a homo] who think the world owes them a living, but aren't man enough to survive without the gov't protecting them from all things scary.

I say enough with the class warfare, you want something, earn it or shut up, what I have is mine and I am under no obligation to give it to anyone.It's about time we started fighting back before they pick our bones clean.


Lies by Democrats
The Democrats have done the lying accusations about their rivals also. To the extent of destroying promising careers. Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay. Remember how the Texas prosecuting attorney had to set up three different grand juries to get a indicment on Tom Delay, only to drop the charges when he stepped down?

Not all Democrats are bad. Its the DMC I blame. Look at what they did to one of their own, Liberman. Also look at how the environmentalists are in bed with the Democrat congress. Every vite concerning domestic oil is turned down by them.Two recently. Then they blame Bush for the price at the pump. The surge wouldn't work in Irag. Now that it did, do you see any news in the paper about it? As Americans, we need to close ranks, and vote congress members out who vote against domestic oil. I always though the Democrat Party was the Champion of the American worker, doesn't look like that now. They want to bring the economy down, blame the Republicans and Independents, get voted in during hard times, then set up a totally socialist country. Can't see that? Thats exactly how Hitler took over Germany before WW2. hard times, Blamed the Jews, got voted in, then took over.There was no one left to stop him. Better think about whats going on.

Correction
Should have been Mark Twain.

And the British government stands by their assessment about Saddam and Nigeria.

Popular vote?
One of the most destructive and accepted lies is that we have a democracy, but Article 4, Section 4 of our not-a-living-document Constitution has never been legally repealed. Our founders rejected democracy and formed a republic for a number of reasons. One of them is that either side only has to buy and steal 50.01% of the votes in a de-mob-ocracy for the left wing or the right wing of Control Freaks Unanimous to cram any damn thing it chooses down all our throats. http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

Stu is WRONG
Bush has never linked Saddam and 9/11.

Period.

Hey Stu(pid)
Google al-Tuwaitha and Georges Sada, then STFU.

Mar Twain said:
"There are liars, dam(sic) liars, and statistics."

Standshisground
>Once you're elected president, you're elected for four years - regardless of how the polls ebb and flow thereafter. Again, if the Democrats think he shouldn't be president, they had a SECOND option after 2004: impeachment. Second question: why haven't they made a serious impeachment attempt against George Bush - especially given the fact they've claimed he's routinely lied to the American people? By the way, one of the counts of impeachment the House impeachment committee - dominated by Democrats and counseled by, among others, Hillary Clinton - was considering against Richard Nixon at the time he resigned was exactly that same one: lying to the American people.<

Good question. Maybe you should suggest initiating an impeachment to Democrat leaders.

Standshisground
>So Bush was not the "popular choice", as you call it. It still doesn't change the fact that he won the presidency based on a standard that has been in place in our country for over 200 years and that every presidential candidate knows about very well. <

Sure. It’s a strange kind of democracy though and it is clearly geared to electing barely electable Republicans!

>And here's a question I dare you to try to answer: if the American people on the whole were as unhappy as you liberals obviously are about Bush becoming president in 2000, in case you've been on Mars since then, there WAS another presidential election in 2004 - in which the American people had a chance to deprive Bush of what he ostensibly "stole" in 2000. Why didn't they? <

There are always many factors governing electability but Bush reinvented himself as a wartime president with the fear factor a major element. You could argue about the merits of John Kerry but to some significant degree Osama Bin Laden won him the 2004 election.

>Also, in case you're still ignorant of our constitution, America doesn't have a system like other countries, say England and Israel, where the head of state has to put together a coalition and where there has to be a new election if he receives a "no-confidence" vote. <

The head of state in the UK is the Queen who has nothing to do with the function of parliament apart from a ceremonial role. In Israel the Knesset elects the president and in the UK the monarchy is hereditary. Neither is ever the subject of a no confidence motion. You are thinking of the Prime Minister in each case, but they are not the head of state.

Stuart

Typical Socialist
When GWB was still governor of Texas, Democrats were saying loud and long that Saddam Hussein was a threat. How did the Governor manipulate intelligence? The assumption in the Clinton administration was that there was no doubt of cooperation between Saddam Hussein and alQaeda. Remember that "boogie to Baghdad" quote? So, bin Laden lists our blocking the invasion of Kuwait as one of his reasons for attacking us, Saddam has had ongoing connections to various terrorist groups, and has used WMD in the past, sent a trade representative to Niger, whose exports are goats, blackeyed peas and uranium, and we have been attacked. Some people thought action was required. It makes sense to me.

Re: Gore and Florida

If Gore had been able to win his HOME state, Florida would have been a moot point.

Gore could not win a majority of the votes from those who knew him best.

Think about that.

Stu
So Bush was not the "popular choice", as you call it. It still doesn't change the fact that he won the presidency based on a standard that has been in place in our country for over 200 years and that every presidential candidate knows about very well. And here's a question I dare you to try to answer: if the American people on the whole were as unhappy as you liberals obviously are about Bush becoming president in 2000, in case you've been on Mars since then, there WAS another presidential election in 2004 - in which the American people had a chance to deprive Bush of what he ostensibly "stole" in 2000. Why didn't they? Also, in case you're still ignorant of our constitution, America doesn't have a system like other countries, say England and Israel, where the head of state has to put together a coalition and where there has to be a new election if he receives a "no-confidence" vote. Once you're elected president, you're elected for four years - regardless of how the polls ebb and flow thereafter. Again, if the Democrats think he shouldn't be president, they had a SECOND option after 2004: impeachment. Second question: why haven't they made a serious impeachment attempt against George Bush - especially given the fact they've claimed he's routinely lied to the American people? By the way, one of the counts of impeachment the House impeachment committee - dominated by Democrats and counseled by, among others, Hillary Clinton - was considering against Richard Nixon at the time he resigned was exactly that same one: lying to the American people.

Tim
>Stu said: "There were no “weapons of mass destruction” found in Iraq (don’t forget the administration’s diversion from the word nuclear due to W’s inability to pronounce english – are chemical weapons capable of ‘mass destruction’?)." Of course, like a good drive-by liberal, he will never see this post as he has moved on to other sites.
Well, Stu, chemical weapons are the very first WMD's. Circa WWI, they were used en masse and first banned as a result. Hussein had them, we found some, he moved the rest. The question is, dear readers, where are the rest of them now?<

What is it like still living in 2002 Tim?

>As for the "bush is too dumb to say nu-cue-lar..." canard, look it up in the dictionary. Scientists actually say it that way too. If you can believe that 2500 scientists reviewing (but not being allowed to make corrections to) the UN global climate fraud documentation is consensus, what would you call that the way Dubya says it is actually an accepted pronunciation?OOPS, forgot... Libtards cannot be distracted by truth, fact, or reality... only their moron-icity is important. sheesh! <

Nu-cle-ar. Like it is spelled. It is sweet of you to defend him, but it is very obvious that a lot of effort went into the invention of the new phrase‘weapons of mass destruction’ to be used by him until he could learn to pronounce nuclear, by which time everyone had got used to using WMD!

>Stu ...is the first three letters of "stu-pid." <

Thank you for your compliment. What is your justification of it?

Stuart

JFP
>It's hard for me to figure out why anyone would think that this statement is a lie: "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." Is the lie supposed to be that Bush misrepresented what the British government believed? No one has ever talked about it that way, so I assume the lie is in what the British government believed. But then doesn't that mean that the lie originated with the British government and not Bush? Please enlighten me, Stu. <

The British government had not learned such a thing. That makes it a lie doesn’t it?

Stuart

Standshisground
>And in Bush's 16-word statement in 2003 that Hawkins quotes, where did Bush say that Saddam Hussein DID have uranium? All Bush said was that he SOUGHT it; he never said that Hussein ACQUIRED it. Of course, nowadays liberals have twisted the meaning of the words in our language into almost unrecognizable form, anyway, so I'm not surprised they think Bush lied on this by making synonymous the words SOUGHT and ACQUIRED.<

I did say ‘Regardless of the 16 words’.

>And by the way, for those of you liberals who have claimed that Bush conned the nation into believing Saddam Hussein had a hand in 9/11 to get them to support war against Iraq: the quote from Hillary Clinton of 10/10/2002 shows that clearly SHE wasn't conned into believing that. So why DID she vote for the war? I'll again enlighten you, although I'll give you the REAL reason, not the one she lyingly hides behind: because she saw that vote as advancing her quest for the presidency down the road. Which proved to be typical of the Clintons' approach to things: go for instant gratification now - and pay for your lack of judgment down the road, as Hillary did.<

Well Bush DID con the American public into believing that there was a link between Iraq and 9/11 and that in itself is despicable. Hillary may have had the sophistication to see through it but believed the ‘intelligence’ that claimed all sorts of false things about Saddam’s capabilities. She was not in charge of the agencies responsible for that information. I think she was wrong to vote for the Iraq invasion.

Stuart

Standshisground
>There have been three prior presidential elections before 2000 where the electoral vote winner had fewer popular votes than the popular vote winner: 1888, 1876, and 1824. In case you don't know the U.S. constitution, it stipulates that the winner of the presidential election is the one who receives a majority of the ELECTORAL vote, NOT the POPULAR vote. If liberals don't like this system, they're free to try to change it, by introducing an amendment to the U.S. constitution. Why don't they? I'll tell you why: because any Democratic senators and Congressmen from small electoral vote states, like Montana, would be committing political suicide to support it.<

OK, that’s interesting. ‘Minority’ presidents before Bush were in 1824 (Adams, a pre-Republican), 1876 (Hayes, a Republican) and 1888 (Harrison, yep you guessed it, Republican). I realise there is an electoral college etc but I was just pointing out that Bush was not the popular choice, and he certainly ain’t popular now.

Stuart

Stu
...is the first three letters of "stu-pid."

Stu is an idiot
Stu said: "There were no “weapons of mass destruction” found in Iraq (don’t forget the administration’s diversion from the word nuclear due to W’s inability to pronounce english – are chemical weapons capable of ‘mass destruction’?)."

Of course, like a good drive-by liberal, he will never see this post as he has moved on to other sites.

Well, Stu, chemical weapons are the very first WMD's. Circa WWI, they were used en masse and first banned as a result. Hussein had them, we found some, he moved the rest. The question is, dear readers, where are the rest of them now?

As for the "bush is too dumb to say nu-cue-lar..." canard, look it up in the dictionary. Scientists actually say it that way too. If you can believe that 2500 scientists reviewing (but not being allowed to make corrections to) the UN global climate fraud documentation is consensus, what would you call that the way Dubya says it is actually an accepted pronunciation?

OOPS, forgot... Libtards cannot be distracted by truth, fact, or reality... only their moron-icity is important.

sheesh!

Where's the lie?
It's hard for me to figure out why anyone would think that this statement is a lie: "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Is the lie supposed to be that Bush misrepresented what the British government believed? No one has ever talked about it that way, so I assume the lie is in what the British government believed. But then doesn't that mean that the lie originated with the British government and not Bush?

Please enlighten me, Stu.

My fellow conservatives
Years ago I received a list of things under the title "To Be a Liberal". I'll share some of them here.

To be a liberal:

- you have to believe that gender roles are artificial while being gay is natural.

- you have to believe that conservatives are racists but that blacks couldn't make it without you.

- you have to believe that standardized tests are racist but racial quotas and set-asides aren't.

- you have to believe that trial lawyers are selfless heroes and doctors are overpaid.

- you have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.

- you have to believe that guns in the hand of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than WMD's in the hands of terrorists.

- you have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.

- you have to believe that there was no art before federal funding.

Stu
There have been three prior presidential elections before 2000 where the electoral vote winner had fewer popular votes than the popular vote winner: 1888, 1876, and 1824. In case you don't know the U.S. constitution, it stipulates that the winner of the presidential election is the one who receives a majority of the ELECTORAL vote, NOT the POPULAR vote. If liberals don't like this system, they're free to try to change it, by introducing an amendment to the U.S. constitution. Why don't they? I'll tell you why: because any Democratic senators and Congressmen from small electoral vote states, like Montana, would be committing political suicide to support it.

And in Bush's 16-word statement in 2003 that Hawkins quotes, where did Bush say that Saddam Hussein DID have uranium? All Bush said was that he SOUGHT it; he never said that Hussein ACQUIRED it. Of course, nowadays liberals have twisted the meaning of the words in our language into almost unrecognizable form, anyway, so I'm not surprised they think Bush lied on this by making synonymous the words SOUGHT and ACQUIRED.

And by the way, for those of you liberals who have claimed that Bush conned the nation into believing Saddam Hussein had a hand in 9/11 to get them to support war against Iraq: the quote from Hillary Clinton of 10/10/2002 shows that clearly SHE wasn't conned into believing that. So why DID she vote for the war? I'll again enlighten you, although I'll give you the REAL reason, not the one she lyingly hides behind: because she saw that vote as advancing her quest for the presidency down the road. Which proved to be typical of the Clintons' approach to things: go for instant gratification now - and pay for your lack of judgment down the road, as Hillary did.

Arithmetic will kill you
When our lunatic mayor Andrew Young wanted to push a 1 cent sales tax increase on top of the 4 cents we already paid, he touted it as a one PERCENT increase. Nothing we could do could persuade people that it was a TWENTY FIVE PERCENT increase. They could not understand the difference between one cent and one percent.

There are also Liberal Axioms that you have to accept before you can believe their nonsense.

(1) Nothing that happened before I was in Grade 8 is of any importance. (This allows people to believe among other things that the Oil Hysteria of the 1970s and the warming trends in the 1800s can be disregarded completely. It also allows them to believe Michael Schumacher is the greatest driver who ever lived.)

(2) Everything that inconveniences me is a CRISIS.

(3) If I cant have everything I want the nanosecond I want it, its a depression.

(4) If I FEEL I am underemployed or not making enough money, SOMEBODY is to blame and SOMEBODY has to pay BIG TIME.

(5) The Boomers (my parents) OWE me. They must be FORCED to continue to work until they die so I wont have to, because I am entitled to an inheritance. Boomers who live to age 98 are SELFISH. (They also owe me free babysitting at any hour of the day or night, for as long as I choose to dump my kids.)

(6) I am entitled to start life with everything it took my parents 30 years to obtain. If I am not making six figures by age 21 and living in a 28 room house in Malibu, SOMEBODY is SELFISH and RICH PEOPLE are Hogging Everything.

To be a good liberal
you have to be able to deny reality 18 times between breakfast and lunch. The 11th Commandment of Liberalism seems to be:

"Thou shalt not recognize any facts that conflict with thy theories."

-Ray
NRA Life Member

CO2 Emissions Follow GW
I have personal evidence of the greater amounts of CO2 because of the billions of maple tree seeds, whirlybirds, I picked up in my backyard and also several pounds more of crab apples on the ground than I have picked up in years.

Increased CO2 amounts foster increased growth of vegetation and trees and I have the evidence in my own backyard. But I believe like many scientists that CO2 emissions followed global warming, not preceded it. As I understand it global heating causes CO2 to be released from the oceans. Makes sense to me but I'm not an environmental wacko.

Well I guess stu is like
the other liberals, they just can give up their lies, it keeps them warm at night.

And John, typically a "myth" is an epic story involving heroics. These 5 things that you mentioned are nothing more than outright lies and propaganda.

Lies must be in the eye of the beholder
There were no “weapons of mass destruction” found in Iraq (don’t forget the administration’s diversion from the word nuclear due to W’s inability to pronounce english – are chemical weapons capable of ‘mass destruction’?).

When was the last time a president was elected with fewer votes than his nearest rival?

Regardless of the 16 words, Saddam did not have uranium.

Would 9/11 have happened if Gore had been president? There is no point in that speculation really.

There is an overwhelming agreement amongst real scientists that global warming is real and very probably anthropogenic. There is obviously still a buck to be made denying it but that does not constitute meaningful disagreement amongst those who know what they are talking about.

Stuart

And it is their "patriotic duty"
to tell they world how *BAD* America is on each and every issue.
Americans are racists
homophobes
polluters - destroyers of ecology
provencial hicks - ignorant of the world
won't learn (anything of worldly use)
genocidal murderers
"chicken hawks" (which is what?)
and it goes on and on and on and on.

Liberal Self Delusion
I know many otherwise smart liberals who accept these fabrications without question. If the topic were nonpolitical, I know their scientific rigor would have them checking it.
They are programmed to pass unconscious judgement.

For instance, do you think liberals like:
Apple MacIntosh, Volvo Cars, Vegetarianism, Bottled Water, Bicycles?

Not only do they like them, their affinity is their badge of superiority. They derive smug satisfaction that all their choices are perfect.

Myk... Good One !

"Myk
Location: OR

Reply # 5
Date: Jun 13, 2008 - 1:00 AM EST Subject: The Game of Statistics
When I was a young history student at university during the early 1970's, one of the first things implanted in my mind was the awareness of how statistics can be selectively interpreted and distorted, in order to promote a partisan ideological agenda. I know from personal experience that those on the Left are every bit as capable of playing that game as any on the far reactionary Right. I know, because I used to be a member of the radical Left myself."

~~~

O' Canada? Anyway, welcome to the "Dark side". I know, I know, but this was sarcasm. I am as conservative as anyone I know, and you are "Spot On", as the Brits say.

Every poll is suspect, unless you can see the specific questions asked. Only then can you see the planned bias, to elicit the answers they intend.


i.e.,

"Do you think murder with firearms is bad?"

Therefore, guns are bad.




Not only is there no concensus
on AGW but the U.N. itself has stated publically that they never said there was. What they said, and what is written on the cover sheet of their report, is that the report was "reviewed" by 2500 scientists.

The "concensus" lie was promulgated by the eco-idiots and picked up by the MSM who parrotted it endlessly the way they do all liberal lies.


Additions
I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
Tax cuts lower tax revenue.
Tax cuts are for the "rich".
Valerie Plame was an undercover CIA operative whose name was leaked by Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and Scooter Libby.
Public education is the best value in the country.
We couls fix (fill in the blank) if we only had more money. (spoken by any bureaucrat)
I'm sure the list goes on, but this kind of stuff wouldn't even make the cover of Weekly World News.

Bush Had the Guts
to confront a potential problem that was described by many on both sides to be a grave threat-Saddam and Iraq. Yes, many on the left used as strong, if not stronger language in regards to Iraq. In 1998, top democrat leaders in the Congress wrote a letter giving President Clinton permission, and urging him to remove Saddam. So who is the fool. Is it the one who warns of grave danger and does nothing (CLinton), or is it the one who sees the same dangers and acts upon it?

Being a Monday morning quarterback is easy. But if there was no threat, BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE were wrong. I'll take the guy who confronts the evil everyone agreed was there over the guy (Clinton) who said the same thing and did nothing. The "do nothing" approach will eventually have grave consequences.

Might I add...
It is also how you portray those "statistics."

In the discussion of another story was the matter of Military Suicides increasing.

Now, the RAW Actual undisputed numbers are;

in 2006 there were 102 Suicides
in 2007 there were 115 Suicides,

That's in increase of 13 actual suicides, not much more than one a month.

However, because the Military is a small number, much smaller that the population in general that 13 percent (13 is about 12.7 percent of 102) increase can be listed as a scaler as such

The increase is from 9.8 per 100,000 to 17.3 per 100,000

Okay, remember we're talking about 13 actual suicides, but the scaler above looks so much worse so liberals will only talk about that increase, or the 13 percent increase.

To have a an equivilant increase in the general population per 100,000 would require an additional 39,000 people to commit suicide.

That general population rate by the way is 17.9 per 100,000 currently, which is higher than the military still.

But the liberals don't care about 13 soldiers killing themselves, only pushing their agenda by saying things the way they sound the worst.

jd

The Game of Statistics
When I was a young history student at university during the early 1970's, one of the first things implanted in my mind was the awareness of how statistics can be selectively interpreted and distorted, in order to promote a partisan ideological agenda. I know from personal experience that those on the Left are every bit as capable of playing that game as any on the far reactionary Right. I know, because I used to be a member of the radical Left myself.
The point is that statistics, even true statistics, can be made to LIE. It is by a very SELECTIVE use of those statistics . . . and by a condescending and sarcastic tone in INTERPRETATION . . . that the significance of objective statistics can be twisted. I cannot count the number of times I have heard people say, "Studies show, blah, blah, blah, etc., etc." . . . and, "The latest studies indicate, blah, blah, blah".
Almost never do these claims of "Studies" actually mention the SPECIFIC study, its methodology, whether it has been peer-reviewed, etc. Unless someone actually explains IN DETAIL the methodology that was used to gather the data, chances are they are trying to hide something. When the Lancet study was released . . . alleging "over 600,000" (presumably civilian) deaths in Iraq, DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE in some way to American military action, many on the Left automatically accepted those figures as the Gospel Truth . . . without taking time to study the methodologies used and interpretations of the data. Even some war critics, like Fred Kaplan, explained in detail (in SLATE, etc.) why the data was questionable. I have read the Lancet study myself. I would encourage others to do the same, compare it to the U.N.'s own study, and come to your own conclusions.
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