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Friday, February 22, 2008
John Hawkins :: Townhall.com Columnist
Explaining to the Obamas Why They Should Be Proud of Their Country
by John Hawkins
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"For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country, because it feels like hope is making a comeback." — Michelle Obama

Is that a surprising sentiment to hear from a woman who wants to be first lady? You might think so, until you realize that she is married to a man who doesn't hold his hand over his heart for the Star Spangled Banner and makes a big deal out of not wearing a flag pin. Those two would make a great first couple -- of Cuba or maybe Venezuela. Granted they might be a little to the Left of the people in charge now, but if anybody needs empty feel-good speeches featuring lots of Sesame Street rhetoric about "change, "hope," and "unity," it's the citizens of Cuba and Venezuela.

But, since the Obamas’ patriotism is as thin as Barack's resume, maybe someone should take the time to explain to them why they should appreciate this country.

To begin with, we live in a Super Power with the greatest military and economy the world has ever seen. We're also the longest surviving democracy in the world and our example has inspired hundreds of millions of people across the world to seek freedom for themselves and their families -- and often we have helped them. We've done more to promote freedom and democracy in the world than any other dozen countries combined -- and we still do. We've expended immense amounts of blood and treasure to help keep 50 million Afghans and Iraqis free, our military ensures that there's peace in nations like Taiwan and South Korea, and if not for our support, Israel would probably long since have been annihilated by its genocidal neighbors. Then there's South Korea, El Salvador, Grenada -- you can go on and on with a list of nations whose freedom, in some form or fashion, that we've had a hand in.

We've also fought time and time again in the 20th century when the forces of darkness threatened to engulf the world. Our entry into WWI utterly changed the course of the war. In WWII, without our help, the Allies could not have defeated the Axis. Then there was the Cold War, where we prevented the Soviets from spreading their evil ideology across the planet.

Afterwards, it was just as Colin Powell said:

And when all those conflicts were over, what did we do? Did we stay and conquer? Did we say, "Okay, we defeated Germany. Now Germany belongs to us? We defeated Japan, so Japan belongs to us?” No. What did we do? We built them up. We gave them democratic systems which they have embraced totally to their soul. And did we ask for any land? No, the only land we ever asked for was enough land to bury our dead. And that is the kind of nation we are.

It is indeed the kind of nation we are because the American people, while not perfect, are fundamentally good, hard working, ambitious Christian folk who want to do the right thing, not just for our country, but for the world.

That’s why we are, have been, and will continue to be the nation that does the most to promote freedom, capitalism, and democracy around the world. It's why Americans give more than the citizens of any other country. It's why we're usually the first nation on the spot helping out after a major disaster in another country. It's why food grown by Americans feeds starving people all over the planet. It's why drugs, created and delivered by Americans, cure the sick across the world. It's why people all over the planet have been able to, with the help of Americans, raise themselves up out of grinding poverty and make better lives for their families.

The Barack Obamas of the world don't see this because as Machiavelli once said, they have "imagined for themselves republics and principalities that have never been seen or known to exist in reality," and they compare our nation to those fairy tale kingdoms. It's very easy to look at how we defeated the Indians and took their land, slavery, and the other assorted grievances that Barack's pals on the Left have with America and conclude that we're a terrible nation -- but, not if you compare us to other flesh and blood countries. When you do that, especially when we're talking about other Super Powers through history that have had responsibilities across the world, as opposed to Toy Poodle nations that make little difference in the world one way or another, you'll find that no other country has done nearly as much for humanity as the good ol’ U.S. of A.

And despite the howls of the anti-American Left, the "Muslim street," Socialist apparatchiks, and Western European snobs, the world knows this in their souls. That's why we're called the "land of opportunity." It's why we have tens of millions of immigrants waiting in line to move here. It's why the same nations that sneer at us when things are going well, run to us first for help when things turn bad.

America is a good country and Americans are a decent, patriotic people that deserve a leader who is as proud to be a part of this nation as they are. What they don't deserve is an unpatriotic empty suit who actually thinks that it takes a certain "audacity" to have hope in a great nation like this one.

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About The Author
John Hawkins is a professional blogger who runs Right Wing News, Linkiest, and Viral Footage.
 
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John Hawkins
is about empty gestures patriotism.

Obama is right - America is rotten.
Michelle Obama is right in stating that there has been nothing to be proud of where the United States is concerned. We operate a capitalist economy that exploits workers for the benefit of a handful of greedy CEO's. We charge citizens for essential items such as food, clothing, and housing. And we have a tax system that makes the poorest citizens pay all of the taxes while rich and corporations pay none.

America has been shameful in that while being rich, it still refuses to give its citizens free health care, free education, sudsidized housing, guaranteed wages, job security, cheap food and energy, and all of the other things promised in our constitution. The Obama's have seen this inadequacy, and through their generosity they will finally give every progressive America the things they are entitled to.

We need the Obama's in office, for only they have recognized that the United States is the worst country on the globe. We need a president who realizes that the nation he is leading is truly despicable, and we need a president who seeks to dismantle society as we know it.

With the Obama's, we can change from this capitalist society and become a socialist paradise where every citizen works for the betterment of their neighbor. We can change into a society where the government provides for the needs of every loyal citizen, and punishes those that fail to recognize their obligation to take care of their lesser skilled neighbor.

The Obama's will help us change into the nation that once again honors the part of our constitution that dictates, "From each according to his means, to each accoring to his needs".

America is good, and has always been.
Another loyal Democrat writes about a personal belief gained through an academic institution education of indoctrination. How does anyone get to be so stupid as to actually believe this drivel? Socialism is the worst of the economic systems, name one socialistic country that has succeeded, anywhere? Socialism has been the direct link to the most massive human suffering on this planet. The last century provided a laudry list of socialism failures.

The only difference between communism and the Nazis (whose party was named as the National Socialist Party) is that communism believes the government should own everything. Nazis (and socialists) believe the government should control everything. Communists, Socialists, and Nazis all competed for the same mental thought process. The identical thought process inherited by a Loyal Democrat who saw fit to offer academic enlightenment to all.

Heaven forbid Loyal Democrat ever used facts as a basis for rationale.

Loyal Democrat
I try very hard to avoid calling people names, but yours should be changed to STUPID DEMOCRAT, because that's what you are. I'm telling you that as a witness to socialism you just described you wish. Born in the USSR, the Mecca you are dreaming about, my family lived in poverty after the W.W.II, many families in holes in the ground or in one small room without utilities.
The salary of average soviet citizen provided by the government was so small that allowed only for the very basic existence. That's why the government provided free health and education, none was otherwise able to pay for that.
In exchange, the Soviet government controlled all aspects of life: every book, movie, newspaper article, political activity, radio and TV programming; you cannot open your own business or the internal police will confiscate it and send you to jail.
Homosexuals were scared off and often jailed.
People with independent opinions were sent to mental institutions to be cured of the "abnormalities".
Do you want more? I think this is enough, although I can continue for hours.
Stop being stupid utopian. Trust me: this is the best country in the world. Not perfect, as none of us is perfect.
The best indicator of greatness is the number of people from outside world who want to move in. No one wants to immigrate to Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea or Vietnam; none emigrated to a former Soviet Union. They want to live in the "terrible" United States, according to you, where only rich CEO's make money. Look around: majority of Americans lived in their own houses, drive modern cars, they are free. Can we live better? Sure, but not because the government takes care of us but exactly otherwise.

Anderson659
Sorry, but Michael Moore proved beyond any possible doubt that even the tiny communist nation of Cuba has far superior health care than that of the United States. Moore made an unbiased documentary, and any moron knows that it is impossible to lie while on film.

The Soviet Union maintained 100% employment during their entire existence because the government saw to it that everyone had a job, no matter how unnecessary the job might have been. Plus, there were never any complaints leveled at the quality of the Soviet government by the citizenry. As such, it was obvious that the people were happier under communism than they are here under capitalism. Hardly a day goes by without someone in the U.S. complaining about being denied the things that they are entitled to.

The economy is so bad in the U.S. that a fascist dictator from Venezuela had to step in and give heating oil to our poor. Americans failed to recognize their constitutional duty to give their surplus money to the less abled, but fortunately a true hero like Chavez saved the day for many Americans. If not for Chavez's generosity, millions of Americans would have frozen to death this year alone.

Non-progressive Americans have failed to realize that societies operate best as collectives, and the rights of the individual are always subservient to what is best for the collective.

Even Mr. Spock realizes that "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one". When the masses need something, the rights of the individual are rightfully ended.


Winston829
Why on earth would you complain about life in the Soviet Union? Even you admitted that the government gave you sufficient wages to exist on, and the rest of your needs such as health care and housing were taken care of. Millions of Americans are demanding these very things, and yet our greedy rich refuse to provide such things to those who want them.

Big deal that you didn't have freedom in the USSR. You can't eat freedom, and freedom does you no good if you are denied the entitlements owed to you by the government. Freedom and liberty are lofty ideals, but they pale when one is facing an expensive cable bill.

It is far better to live as a servant and have your needs tended to than to live as your own master while scraping out a living. Fortunately, Obama has promised to be generous and will finally give us the things that the government owes us. If he gives me the most stuff, I'll vote for him because generosity is what an American president is supposed to be about.

LD
god i almost got sucked in there, i spent the last 5 minutes rsponding to another excellent post by Loyal Democrat...before i realized who i was dealing with. if any excuse it's late : )

michael moore to spock some of the best i've ever read!

Another whiff by a Loyal Democrat
It appears A Loyal Democrat bought a ticket to the latest Michael Moore propaganda feature starring his view of the world.

It figures that someone in the PC world would state that movie as a fact and proof. Geez, talk about shifting feet while chewing on your toes.

Hey Loyal Democrat, how come a few hundred thousand from the former Soviet Union emigrated here? And if everything wwas so good in the Soviet Union, why did they build a wall to keep people in? The Soviet Union had no jobs. It was a failure, pure and simple. Of course judging by your comments, it must of been a rousing success, I guess I missed that piece of history.

I mean, how do you keep embarrasing yourself by claiming a movie maker of propoganda films provides facts? Really, you can't believe that, surely you jest?


anderson and winston re: Loyal Democrat
bro's it's called satire

anderson and winston re: Loyal Democrat
bro's it's called satire

Loyal democrat
I was right when I offer your name change. So you approve of slavery? A slave works, is given food to survive, has a place to live. Why Civil War? Emancipation Proclamation? Marches for equality? Really.
A slave cannot vote, a slave is a property of the owner (in my case of the Soviet government and the unelected Politburo). Nice existence!
Look at the world around us. People give their lives for the right to be independent and free.
In Nazi Germany under Hitler Germans live well, specially when slaves from Eastern Europe worked their fields and factories. You must know the end of this story. And the sad end of the Soviet Union.
For your education please read just on book. It is called "The Gulag Arhipelago" by Alexader Solzshenitzin, a Nobel Price winner. Just one book

Satire, yes.
Satire is a good description. Explains a lot about Loyal Democrat, had me going for a bit. My compliments,

Row
I understand that. I'm writing my answer to other people to share my experience. Actually I write to nowhere and to everybody. Freedom without bread is not good and bread without freedom is not good. The best combination is to have both and it is doable in this country.

row
I understand that, because the guy did not react to a bad name. I simply want to share my experience. Actually, I write to no one and to all. I imagine Obama's America and the picture scares me, like it is deja vu all over again; all these fanatical people in trance around him... I'm afraid the Republican candidate is not up to the task, plus his age... God help us!

Why should I be proud of living in a
fascist state, without the benefit of the rule of law or a free media? Why should I be proud of the fact that we are the world's #1 exporter of raw materials, and the #1 importer of finished goods? Why should I be proud of a country the currency of which is in virtual free-fall because our leaders have bankrupted it? Why should I be proud of a government that openly tortures people and invades sovereign nations which pose no credible threat to us?

I'm proud of my country when it deserves it, but over the last seven years, it has done little to deserve it. Wrap yourself in another layer of duct tape, Chicken-Hawkins! May posterity forget that you were my countryman.

Hey Beastie a**
Why don't you move to a real fascist country and make the same comments about their leadership? Your head will soon be a bloody soccer ball with eyes.

I don't see how your ilk can stand to even breath the air in this country. If I felt like you do I'd renounce my citizenship and head for Sweden or some other imagined Leftist paradise.

Anderson659
"...the Nazis (whose party was named as the National Socialist Party)"

Right, and because the Nazis claimed to be socialists, that means they must have been, because we know they never lied...

The Nazis were nothing to do with Socialism.

Seems that in America, the worst accusation someone can throw at another is 'unpatriotic'. The right have been throwing it at the left for years now, and it's working less and less recently.

If Americans were all feeling proud of their country right now, none of the candidates would be having such success through promising 'change', and Hawkins wouldn't NEED to write this article.

Explaining to the Obamas Why They Should
Loyal Democrat and Beastie Boy, where is Wobbie? Has he been banned?

You two make me sick, sick!!!!

I just do not have the energy or the time to say what I want to say to you, plus they would cut me off.

So, just Kiss my Mississippi Grits.

Socialism Sucks!
Loyal Democrat and Beastie Boy: Please pull your head out of your rectum! Oh yea, you may want to read the Constitution. Thanks!

John, dear john
"We've also fought time and time again in the 20th century when the forces of darkness threatened to engulf the world. Our entry into WWI utterly changed the course of the war. In WWII, without our help, the Allies could not have defeated the Axis. Then there was the Cold War, where we prevented the Soviets from spreading their evil ideology across the planet.

Revisionist LMAO! The, what you would call "socialist" US, won those wars and helped rebuild the world. That was then this is now. Remember the Leagus of Nations, remember the New Deal, Remember the Conservative caused Great Depression (today's Conservatives often advocate the same policies), remember nationalized corporate America during WWII; remember the WWII GI bill and high taxes to invest in social and physical capital, remember, when confronted with far more danderous threats, this was not a torture country?

Loyal Democrat
I'm having a hard time decided what I like more; your satire, or the comments of the dolts who fall for it every time.

It just makes my day.

bodhitree
"...Now it is time for the true caretakers to repair the damage to this country's social and economic fabric. We can no longer tolerate right-wing religous terrorists to damage our country and destroy our good standing in the international community. "

Uh, oh.... you will now be attacked as one of Limbawl's "phony" soldiers and a disgrace to the military. Your message? forget it ...

keep up the good work


Bubba
Twits like little boy beastie and unloyal American democrat are the perfect Obama supporters. You couldn't fine a better example of the type of UnAmericans who flip for Mr. Empty Suit.

And Mr. Empty, btw, has no intention of revealing what he has in mind for America. Until in office! That's when we'd find out about this phony "hope" and "change" stuff. Know who's going to love America under Obama?

Say hello to little boy beastie and unloyal American dem. They go perfect with Mr. Empty. And Michelle, too!

America the Democracy as in the Founders
A vote for McCain is a vote for WWIII, the man that is really nothing but a refried Hitler. Besides, America the good as to Hawkins' version is already besides being an abusive and brutal Empire, the mass grave of 50+ million of unborn American babies while the butcher shops daily murder thousands more. Yes, the Hitler regime also murdered his own citizens, with only one difference he hated the Jews, whereas does America murder the completely innocent ones because it loves them in as much as Hawkins says that the American people are good and decent Christian folks? America, let us not play games with God? Past Empires did and they all are history. They in essence sank themselves as they self-destroyed with pride and trust in materialism and military might. If America were to use a small percentage of what it uses in military might in helping trully other Nations as what really the reason this nation was created under God's guidance this world would be a much more pleasan planet than what it is now!

At Whose Expense?
*The best combination is to have both and it is doable in this country. *

Next time Mrs. Obama trips on stage in Prada shoes with a handbag to match, a Rolex glittering on her wrist, ask her how much they cost and how many children could have been fed with that money and why she would rather see children starve than not have what the next door neighbours have.

Then ask her who is going to pay the bill for the pie in the sky she and her husband want the world to have. You can bet it will never be her.

P.S. You might also remind Mrs.Obama that in the Antebellum South women literally risked death -- WHITE women -- to defy the ruling that Blacks should not be taught to read and write. True,today Blacks insist on their right NOT to learn to read and write, but rather to be carried on the backs of those who can. Neverthless, the fact that some swine trample the gift in the dirt does not negate the giver or the gift. I am proud of the women in MY family who defied that rule and incidentally never owned slaves nor supported the institution. If Mrs. Obama tramples them in the dirt with her Prada shoes, she is the cheap one and history will never be proud of her.

Excellent esay
Kudos to Mr. Hawkins for an excellent read.

Also,Loyal Democrat,great responses.I couldn't agree more.You really reeled in a few today.Keep up the good work...

When packaging is all that matters.
Will Obama's "free pass" from media scrutiny propel him into the whitehouse?

The media has always been averse to criticizing black leaders.

It is not racist to point that out. What is racist is the failure of media to apply the same scrutiny to Obama as it applies to McCain, Hillary, or your local blue-eyed devil.

Obama is an attractive candidate, and his leftwing views are seldom if ever scrutinized by politically correct cowards in media.

Obama favors taxing Americans to alleviate world poverty. I read this on the internet. My local hometown rag, which is run by leftists, failed to cover it.

Insofar as Hawkins' piece is concerned, if you even have to explain to the Obamas why they should feel proud to be Americans, then just how stupid do Americans have to be to actually want them in the Whitehouse?

Wait. Don't answer that. I don't want to know.

Obambi Will Save Us
He said that he would take up the cause of Darfur. Put troops in Darfur. And the reason for doing so is to stop the genocide. Isn't that one of the primary reasons given by Jorge Bush for invading Iraq? Yet, Obambi is hailed for his humanitarian stand. The US is bashed and burned for the Kovoso independence. So Obambi is ready to spring into Africa to liberate that continent. His plan, talk to the bad guys. That will not work. After the slaying of our troops along with those of other nations, what is his next step? Will he sabre rattle with China which is doing its best to "take Africa under its wing." Merely another one of his promises.

T.C.
I would suggest, that Mr.Obama and his supporters will be LOVING America MOST upon their win in November.The young,affluent,well-educated,and patriotic will be supporting Mr.Obama and LOVING America,at the same time.But,you should not worry,fore you are not in that group.SORRY! Mr.Hawkins,we have heard this larceny before,just as you have heard of DONUTS,and both are showing,way too MUCH.

USA Eagle
Well said. Loyal Dem. pulled it off! Went right over my head.

Shear genius our Loyal Dem. Didn't get past you, however. WOW! You know what? I bet SNL will be calling. Afterall, when satire reaches this level the big guns take a look.

To think I got him mixed up with Beastie. Shows you how off I was. Get out of town.

TownHall Quote is WRONG!
For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country, because it feels like hope is making a comeback." — Michelle Obama

Michelle DID NOT say this as quoted above - - - - -she said "For the first time in my adult life, I am PROUD of my country, because it feels like hope is making a comeback." — Michelle Obama

She DID NOT say the word REALLY!

IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE!

I believe MSM is "trying" to help her out of this screw-up. As MSM is quoting her it sounds like she has been proud before -- but -- now she is REALLY PROUD. Actually the way whe said it was "I have NEVER been proud of my country . . . . . .

In this case (TownHall - shame on their fact checkers)

Is Obama a Jehovah Witness
Jehova Witnesses hate the Flag too.

Even 7 year old cub scouts know how to treat the flag with proper respect. Someone running for POTUS should at the very least place their hand over their heart during the pledge. Obama is acting like he will give the flag its due respect only when he feels the USA deserves it. This man wants to be president?

What is patriotism?
Bubba: "Loyal Democrat and Beastie Boy, where is Wobbie? Has he been banned?

You two make me sick, sick!!!!

I just do not have the energy or the time to say what I want to say to you, plus they would cut me off."
------------------------
I don't know Robbie, but he's probably off in the real world, Bubba. It happens, y'know.

Patriotism is not about mindless jingoism and emptier gestures. It is about defending your country when it is right, and making it right when it is wrong. Michelle Obama is right, in the sense that it is a good thing to see that people are waking up to the need for change and finally raising their voices. We have all been radicalized by pressing need.

Candor might not be the optimal course when your wife asks you if she looks fat in that dress, but it is essential at times like these. If not for bold people like us who were willing to sound the alarm, there would be no United States, and you'd be watching the cricket on summer afternoons.

Not that the latter is such a bad thing....

Obamo
Y'all please vote for O because he will give us pore people who like to set hear on the back porch the most stuff...Loyal Democrat is correct..we live in a horrible country..and our constution says we are owed all free things paid for by all them rich people..that is wy I vote for O...!!

Thank y'all verie much ...my name is RichinTX...

Boutte - You can't be serious!
*** "Boutte writes: Friday, February, 22, 2008 8:18 AM
Feeble objections
The last time I checked, Michelle Obama was not running for anything and Barack still hadn't converted to Islam, dammit. The GOP mud machine has come up empty again. Keep digging.
" ***

Was Michelle Obama speaking on behalf of Barak? Yes or no.

How much garbage could Laura Bush have said without the left attributing it to George? None or less than none.


Do you even know what fascism is?
Fight4: "Why don't you move to a real fascist country and make the same comments about their leadership?"
-----------------------------
Do you even know what fascism is? Greece under Papadopoulos and Indonesia under Suharto were prime examples of fascist states that ruled with less of an open boot. Whether we've crossed the threshold into fascism might still be open to debate in some circles, but using Prof. Lawrence Britt's fourteen signposts, see http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html, we're already there in spades.

I expect ignorance and mindless jingoism from the duct tape-wearing Rabid Right. All I can do is lead you to knowledge; I can't make you think.

Boutte
Your characterization of a "war-mad" McCain, versus a "war-wary" Obama, may have relevance.

What precisely does McCain intend to do on the middle east? I did not like his comment about possibly being in Iraq for one hundred years, but as you yourself have alluded to with a comment attributed to Michelle Obama, just what was the context in which Michelle or McCain made their respective comments?

There is a fundamental difference between being a hardnosed realist, and a neocon fool. The former does not seek to change the world...the latter does. G.W. Bush embodied the latter.

I am reserving judgment on McCain...but given the alternatives I am inclined to support him,...BUT as the election nears, if I get a whiff he is going down that disastrous neocon road, I will not vote for him. There is time enough to make that judgment.

I think we agree Bush's partaking of the noxious neocon brew has badly damaged our nation.

But we do have legitimate interests, economic and security, around the world, including the middle east. Alas, we depend on imports, be they ores, strategic minerals and metals, to sustain both our military prowess and economy.

But I agree with you we must cease messianic missions to bring about democracy; and I also agree our foreign policy, our security interests, do not always align with those of Israel.

I am not anti-Israeli. Israel has a right to exist. But I view our relationship with Israel from the standpoint of what benefits our nation, our interests, not what benefits them.

That is being a realist.

Obamo again
Hey ya'll I fergot one thang in my previous note here and that is that O will give all my cows out there in back pasture some things to eat also while he is deliverin' all them free thangs to me hear at my house..Isurely do hope he brings a lot for them to eat cause there a whole buncha them cows back there and they eat a lot and he can build them a new barn while he is here..so i am not worried ...we just have to vote him in there....

My name is RichinTX...thank yall for votin O in there...

George W. Bush is mentally ill
jera: "But I agree with you we must cease messianic missions to bring about democracy; and I also agree our foreign policy, our security interests, do not always align with those of Israel.

I am not anti-Israeli. Israel has a right to exist. But I view our relationship with Israel from the standpoint of what benefits our nation, our interests, not what benefits them.

That is being a realist."
-----------------------------
When you talk to God, it is called prayer. When He talks back, it is called psychosis.

As far as Israel is concerned, it is their problem and not ours. We don't have a dog in that hunt. Only the psychotic think we need to defend it because it vindicates their peculiar little religions.

Let the Chicken-Hawkinses of the world bleed for Israel, if they feel they must. Why he is not in uniform, if he is so psychotically gung-ho, is not at all clear. He should be serving in the Romney Brigade on the front lines in Iraq.

Dos vidanye!
Winston: "People with independent opinions were sent to mental institutions to be cured of the 'abnormalities'."
----------------------------
Dos vidanye, Comrade. You should feel right at home under the thumb of the Bush regime. Your phone is tapped, your car is lo-jacked, your e-mail is read. People with independent opinions opposing the regime are subject to malicious prosecution, placed on our "no-fly list," and often denied access to work and the professions. We have "telephone justice," not distinguishable from the show trials of Vyshinsky. As a good friend who escaped Warsaw-pact Poland once told me, "I left Poland, but it has followed me."

Beastie Boy
Don't look now but that alarm is the eight years (really 12 since the attack on Gingrich in 96) of divisiveness finally culminating in the Barack fantasy tour. Everyone should see the light. We need to change this horrible country. We need change from the facism we've created in our dim minds with our own media, celebrities and special interests. We need change from fiscal responsibility (or lack thereof with the dims running things for the last two years) to mind & budget blowing socialism. We need change from fighting terrorists, supporting allies and threatening terrorist supporters to a more conciliatory, don't ask, don't tell if you really like what terrorists do and we won't bother you.

You're the one that needs a reality check on your intelligence. Now, thanks to the media and this sorry extended process we have no choice but to vote the lesser of two evils. A liberal loving hawk that will give us weaker conservative (if conservative at all) judges and open borders and taking 25% more of my check instead 40%. Yeah you can really teach us a few things with your stupid rhetoric. This country is horrible all right. We have an empty suit super star that will not recognize what the flag and pledge really stand for and keep that ideal going but instead tear it down leading lemmings like you.

They sicken me
while they were grabbing ivy league affimitave action diplomas, I was bustin ammo on a tank gunnery range. I have never made more than 40k in my life, while they were pulling down 6 figures. I wasn't given their talent, or drive, but I do the best I can.

I am sure that they earned their successes, but, the rest of America gave them the foundation on which to build.

I still think that this is the greatest country on the planet. I get chills down my spine when taps is played, and the Star Spangled Banner is played. I get really ticked off when I see men not remove their hats, or place their hands over their hearts.

I was never more proud when I saw the Berlin wall come down, knowing that I had a very small part in that happening, I was stationed in Germany 84-87 in a Armored unit.

PS. don't burn a flag around me...



Beastie
I have to wonder if the Bush regime is watching you how have you morons controlled the air waves for eight years?

They ain't too bright, Boutte
Boutte: "LD may, however, be right about the fan boys since some are so stoooopid they think he's for real, even at this level of ineptitude, until a slightly brighter one says 'Duh, ain't it meant to be kinda funnin'?'."
--------------------------
Most of the denizens of this board are operating at Larry, The Cable Guy speed. You almost have to put [SNARK!] at the front of a post for them to recognize satire. Subtlety is not in their vocabulary.

Beastie Boy
"Patriotism is not about mindless jingoism and emptier gestures."

--------------
By NOT placing his hand on his heart during the pledge Obama IS making a gesture. Obama is ON PURPOSE choosing to show no respect for the flag and at the same time this in turn says he is not yet proud of America. What's he going to do when he gets into the White House? Have a picnic on the White House lawn using the US Flag as a blanket?

These are not just empty gestures and mindless jingoism to those of us who truly respect and understand what the US Flag represents.


w00t!
pandm writes: Friday, February, 22, 2008 6:51 AM
Beastie kid
If you don't like America, get you A** out.


I love it! If people don't like it, go to europe! socialism seems to be working there eh?

i would like to ask people if Michelle was right in saying she wasn't proud before...then why did she basically rebuke what she said?

Loyal Democrat lol, i have to say...any sane person reading that would turn to a conservative instantly! saying freedom is not important...living style, not important...opinions, not important. makes you wonder what the democrats are really up to doesn't it? If people like that are following lol,

Just remember...what you create yourself will be there if you continue to create it...what the government gives they can take away. I think loyal democrat should go live in cuba for a while and let us know how the healthcare system is...heck, even canada!

Which dog will you hunt, Beastie?
The one that cuts your throat. Sorry too late. Us dum ones ain't gonna wait for ijits like you and Obatty to tell us when.

Beastie leaves us with yet another

vapid, tediously dull, laughable, simple-minded, inane message.

If he keeps it up, he might be almost as good as wobbie... LOL






T.C.
Loyal Dem has been posting satire for a few years now.He caught me the first time I read his posts and I dare say he's nailed just about everyone at one time or another.Sorry thing is,there's no doubt some liberal loons actually think like that.

Obama Lovers
Let's face it, the losers want the Obamas to steal from those who have something to give the spoils to them because they can't make it on their own.

All the rest of the campaign blather is just window dressing.

The history of socialism is 100 million dead in the 20th century. I guess the losers don't know history or think that they will be lucky in the Obama "paradise."

I want to thank our Founding Fathers while I still can do so publicly -- nice try, gentlemen, but, as you knew, it takes a good, disciplined, educated populace to keep a republic. Too large a percentage of our nation are non-of-the-above now.

BE Patriotic!
It is time to hang up the negative critiqueing and begin to display your own patriotism, now.

Because he who throws stones...

President Elect, Barak Obama has my whole hearted support because he has displayed the manor, dignitiy and intellect that I expect from a leader. I trust him, as much as one can put trust in a political candidate, today.

As we get closer to November, (unless you are a stubbern fool), he will gain yours.

We are a nation that has lost its way...
but here, we have an open opportunity, God willing, to recover.

If you truly are what you love to pronounce eagerly to your readers, then you will get behind this good man, support with dignity, his ideals...roll up your sleeves...and stop acting


well, like you're an ill-directed juvinile, who picks a fight in the playground because his daddy works late, and isn't there for him.

Beastie Boy
Beastie Boy
"Patriotism is not about mindless jingoism and emptier gestures."

I have earned my right to be whatever kind of patriot I want to be. I dont believe showing respect for your country is mindless jingoism.

Like you, and most of your leftie friends... you bring nothing new to the table. majoring in criticism and sarcasm, bringing nothing new or constructive. 100 year old populist solutions is not what I call cutting edge new ideas.

Like most liberals, you are snappy with the insults and smarta** comments all the while refusing to debate the subject at hand while adding ad hominem attacks on whomever you are debating.




Proud of America?
Why be should the Obamas be proud to be American, if you read the the plans Obama has for our neighbors in Mexico, you'll soon realize that he will continue what Bush started. He has made it clear that he intends to grant amnesty and to work with Mexico.

The people in Africa want him to win because they see more of our tax money coming to them.

What of the global tax legislation? Can you say that this is not a continuation of the one world government agenda? The UN continues to assault our country to gain power and our government is aiding them every step of the way.

When they take away our guns and eliminate parents rights, ask me how proud I will be that Americans destroyed Americans.

We need leaders that protect us over foreign nationals and big business. Our lives depend on the decisions they make.

Put "Proud" in context
We can only be as proud of our country as our leadership allows us to be. We, in this country, are at a low point due primarily because of the Bush administration has openly and blatantly advocated torture as a legitimate means of intelligence gathering. Never before have we as a nation advocated for such measures, in spite of very dire times in the past with our enemies. And this is the very worst, IMHO, of many hits this country has taken at the hands of the GOP and the Bush administration.

NO ONE should be "really" proud of what the US stands for today. NO ONE.

yooper....
'is'............too much of our nation is no of the above.

Welcome Back LD


Welcome back, Loyal Deomocrat

You are right and then we'll be in an economy where they pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work.

Hawkins
It's one thing to wrap the flag around oneself and say all this stuff, but what has Hawkins done for his country? At least the Obama's have given public service when they could be making big money elsewhere. Its time for Hawkins to put up or shut up.

See the larger picture
Diane: "Why be should the Obamas be proud to be American, if you read the the plans Obama has for our neighbors in Mexico, you'll soon realize that he will continue what Bush started. He has made it clear that he intends to grant amnesty and to work with Mexico."
--------------------------
And who is going to stop this? Certainly not John mcCon.

What you are observing right now is the systematic disembowelment of our national sovereignty. None of the Big Four candidates are going to stop it, least of all McCain. Welcome the Trans-Texas Corridor of Republican Rick Perry. Be prepared to kiss what is left of your dollar goodbye, and exchange it for the Amero. The Bill of Rights is already gone, as is your comfortable retirement. Live in your duct-taped fortresses if you must, but if you support our corporate regime, you will gradually abdicate the few freedoms you still think you have.

Expect to find yourself in the gulag soon.

Isabella
You are exactly right.

We should be so ashamed of our nation, right now.

It is an international embarrassment.

And I am extremely patriotic. I cry and my heart beats when we do honorable things...both domestically...and abroad.

I'm thankful for living here and show it daily.

I'm not entitled to anything but the privelege to serve in any way I can.

And I perfectly understand and support the honesty of Mrs. Obama's complete statement (before the news media cut the word 'really'out, emphisizing how exceptionally proud she is now, on the campaign trail. Because she and her husband are seeing, first hand, that this nation is filled with good people who are willing to work for the change it will take to bring our nation back to an aligned center...

to a place where we can, again hold our heads high in the light of the global world...

and be the leading nation it stives to be; and once was.

See the larger picture
"I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the Corporate States of America,
and to the gross profit for which it stands.
One nation, under fraud, a subsidiary,
with liberty and justice for sale."

Yeah, let's all gather 'round the campfire with our duct tape and our Bibles and sing Kumbaya.

I'm infinitely more afraid of the terrorists in our government, as they can do us real harm. Some dying guy in a bedsheet half-way around the world concerns me not a whit.

The Muslim Connection
Every last Muslim is an enemy of the United States and Obama is no less. His job is to pave the way for a Muslim takeover.

His whole life is embedded with Muslim hate. Rezka his Syrian Muslim financier indicted crook in Illinois, his Pastor who promotes Louis Farrakans Nation of Islam's hate white,Jew and America. His campaigning for his murderous Kenyan Cousin Raila Odinga and a foundation of 10 years of Muslim upbringing.

If any one thinks Islam is a religion is a fool. It is a terrorist organization--Period. It is just like the Mafia, organization

This guy will destroy us

We are at war and our enemy is every Muslim including Obama. He claims he is a Christian seeing nothing wrong about killing babies. Hes no Christian hes a monster.

Beastie Boy
for once I agree with you.. the fix has been in for years regarding immigration...

Beastie Boy display

While pronouncing his superior Intelligence and ethics, Beastie Boy shows that either he does not know Russian or doesn't care.
His resort to name calling and derogatory terms shows his consideration for others.

Dasvidania,

Das not Dos, nino engreido.

ChickenHawkins? Serve?
Taft: "It's one thing to wrap the flag around oneself and say all this stuff, but what has Hawkins done for his country? At least the Obama's have given public service when they could be making big money elsewhere. Its time for Hawkins to put up or shut up."
--------------------------
He might be too fat to fit into a uniform (like Ox in "Stripes"), and his twenty-first application to appear on The Biggest Loser may have been rejected. Maybe he's got an anal cyst that prevents him from sitting for three hours a day.

Or just maybe, he believes in having other people fight his wars.

You can do whatever you want
mutty: "I have earned my right to be whatever kind of patriot I want to be. I dont believe showing respect for your country is mindless jingoism."
------------------------
There is a difference. I've always preferred Mark Twain's direct approach: "Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

I can no longer in good conscience pledge allegiance to what our country has devolved into.

Never Read Such Twaddle
Seriously, barely a single post has been relevant to the point being made by Hawkins. Whihc i sunfortuante, because almost nothing he writes is accurate or true, making one wonder why conservative columnists are so committed to telling lies

Let us investigate. The claim that Obama doesn't hold his hand over his heart during the pledge of allegaince is completely specious. In the first place, the link he provides is a picture of Obama not holding his hand over his heart durign the national anthem, not the pledge. Furhter, there are many photos of Obama holding his hand over his heart during the pledge and the anthem.

It is arguably true that America has the longest continuous democracy in the world, though Switzerland, Iceland, England, and the Isle of Man can make a case as well. More importantly, it makes no sense to ask a black man or woman to accept that America has been a democracy since 1776 or so, when Democracy didn't really take hold for them until the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

Then there is teh claim that "we've done more to promote freedom and democracy in the world than any other dozen countries combined -- and we still do", followed by references to cases when we have supported Democracy. Unmentioned are the many times we have NOT supported Democracy, such as Nicaragua, Haiti, Pakistan, Viet Nam, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc.

We have supported Democracy when it served our interests, and have not supported it when it didn't. (Oddly, the current Iraqi situation is a case of us supproting Democracy when it is decidedly NOT in our best interests.)

All told, there is a great deal to be proud of in America. And there is a good deal of which to be ashamed. The question which direction we will take from here on out.










Hawkins
Spend a full day picking up trash on our American roadways.

You'd serve the American people in a more practical fashion, by doing so.

And you might learn something invaluable.

I actually love this exercise, myself...

and do it often.


Again, welcome to the Soviet Union
Winston: "Actually I write to nowhere and to everybody. Freedom without bread is not good and bread without freedom is not good. The best combination is to have both and it is doable in this country."
-------------------------
Problem is, I don't have the latter. I cannot speak on the issues of the day without fear of persecution by my government -- persecution I have experienced at first-hand.

Our country is just like the one you left, in the sense that we only sign human rights treaties, as opposed to putting them into practice.

Knee Jerk Reaction vs. Introspection
Oh surprise, another knee jerk reaction vs. having real introspection.

The problem with the right wing is that those who consume the media (meaning you) are not concerned with conservative politics, but rather entertainment.

"Feed me some more knee-jerk popcorn!", the crowd roars! And John Hawkins et. al gives it to them.

One thing is for certain, right wing media has done no introspection as to why McCain is popular or why Barak is popular. Given Hillary Clinton in the super Tuesday primary had more votes than all Republicans combined, you'd think a little humility might be in order.

But nooooooooooooooo, right wing media is doesn't concern itself with the reality of politics, but instead the reality of cha-ching! of the cash flow from writing entertaining, smug fluff pieces like this.

Right wing media was wrong about the Republican nominee, no one picked McCain but a few.

Right wing media has nothing to say about the millions who are coming out to vote for the first time for Barak.

Because in the end, right wing media isn't about the politics of America, but rather its about making entertainment money entertaining a small minority who, obviously, have nothing in common with main-stream Republicans or Americans.

Rather than picking on Michele for making a gaffe, Hawkins wisely could've chosen to focus on what the gaffe was about: millions of Americans voting for the first time.

Let's see, the choices are to pick on Michele and make money, or to do some introspection with regards to the millions of Americans and move conservative politics along?

Yup, make money doing more knee-jerk. The word infantile comes to mind.


Pride
Pride is a difficult thing. Since the beginning if recorded History, too much pride (hubris) has been identified as a primary failing of human nature.

So, paul writes: "Every last Muslim is an enemy of the United States and Obama is no less. His job is to pave the way for a Muslim takeover". I am proud that America allows him to write such crap. But, its hard to be proud of an America that fosters such delusions.

All in all, a skeptical pride seems best.


And to all: one's willingness to wear his or her patriotism on a sleeve, literally, means NOTHING. ZIP. SQUAT.

Continue on in your bliss, indy
indy: "I have to wonder if the Bush regime is watching you how have you morons controlled the air waves for eight years?"
-----------------------
Six consortiums control our airwaves, and they are not liberal. If you have ever been outside of the country for any length of time (and most rednecks haven't, except an occasional foray to Juarez to go on a bender, or perhaps being stuck in barracks), you know how different the media is in the rest of the world.

Why?
I guess social security, medicare, medicaid, Iraq, Iran, immigration, Afghanistan, US education, the housing bubble, North Korea, China, oil, carbon emmissions, and al qaida are too difficult to address.

Much better to discuss pressing national concerns like what Michelle Obama thinks about the U.S.

Carry on . . .

Bashing
I don't understand the Bush bashing going on in this comment section...is he running for President for a 3rd term? Maybe I missed something.

Voting while Black in America?
Jack: "More importantly, it makes no sense to ask a black man or woman to accept that America has been a democracy since 1776 or so, when Democracy didn't really take hold for them until the Voting Rights Act of 1965."
-------------------------
Some would say (with an embarrassing wealth of record support) that it doesn't exist even now. http://www.frequencyclear.tv/PalastInterview.html

traitors
Beastie boy, you are right, exactly the point I was making. To think that we will accept Juan McCain as the alternative choice, the party MUST be joking. He will destroy us quickly, with constant war and assault from our enemies, already within our borders.
We have NO current candidate with the American citizen as the priority. IF the elections take place at all, we will see if ANY elected officials have the fortitude to fight the destruction of America.
The question is will we die a slow bleed by politicians that believe they know what is best or defending the country we love from a takeover by self serving traitors?

Beastie Boy
Mark Twain:"Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

BB:-"I can no longer in good conscience pledge allegiance to what our country has devolved into."
----------------------------
So you are not pledging allegiance to the "country" or not pledging allegiance to the "governement". If you are against the government... fine I can accept that with no issues(but please tell us whose government you prefer)... however if you are against the country then I must say that you have compromised too much in your weakened conviction and your black and white world is now a pale grey.

Hooray!
Finally some Americans standing up for right.

Traveling around the world, as a corporate flight attendant, has shown me both sides of the real life perspective. There are two.

I've seen alot. Heard alot. Concluded alot.

But when I stepped down from those lavish jets, my first inclination was to seek out that people's/country's culture and also to read and to hear its perspective of our (priveleged) land.

For the most part, I witnessed, first hand, a kinder media view of our land than the other way around.

Granted, there are parts of the world I have not experienced...those in our headlines today, but I can tell you one thing...

People are the same (and they want the same).

And a small group of international men's club holds the srings.

and we are their marionettes.

So I pray that 'we' begin to grow above these petty media arguments...
and speak as though we know the game
and we aint buy'n it.

Act as though we have (the collective) power we hold, and stop trivalizing what, otherwise, we CAN change. Get smart, people!

'They' love it when we spend all of our precious time fighting. Then they get to direct the world. There are no international differences in the highest offices. They all agree...

and there money keeps rolling in.




cont.
pretty smart for a flight attendant, huh?

Liberal patriotism...
The comments by Michelle Obama reinforce my view of what Liberals mean when they say they are patriotic and love this country. In fact, they do not love this country; neither for what it is nor for what it has been. That is very clear from what they constantly have to say about what this country is and what it has been. Instead, they love this country for what they think it should be and what they want it to become; a country completely governed by and dedicated to Liberalism.

We Conservatives might well feel the same should the Liberals ultimately get their way. The difference is that the patriotism of Conservatives is tolerant of what we view as far too much Liberalism in our governance while that of the Liberals is not tolerant of what they view as far too much Conservatism in our governance.

Hence, the Liberal mantra that patriotism does not require blind acceptance, “mindless jingoism and emptier gestures”. True enough, but neither should it demand complete and constant adherence to a particular political view. It is that in this country different political views can be held and promoted that we all should appreciate and love. If only Liberals were as tolerant as we.

Lexx777

They don't have anything of substance, so they bring up conspricy theories, rumors, and old news.


Ray: Tolerant?
Ray, do you really want me to go and dig out the rantings of Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Michale Savage, et al in order to show you how stupid your claim of tolerance is?

USA Eagle
".....liberal loons"..... Huh?

These folks past the liberal loon stage a long time ago. Get a load of Beastie Boy. He sounds like Robert on steroids and makes Sean "I Hate America" Penn seem rational.

Another off the charts, far left radical, who has been cheering AlQaeda the last 8 years.

And who does he and other UnAmericans support? Who do they want in the White House? Mr. and Mrs. Hopechange? Yep! Because Mr. and Mrs. Hopechange want to change every single thing about America.

Go with John McCain? Considering the alternative. You better beleive it.

Karl Marx's tombstone reads:
"The Philosophers Have Only Interpreted the World in Various Ways -- The Point is to Change It."

Since the Dems worship to the principles of Marx, does anyone think the Obamas might have been inspired by the quote?

For Ray--on liberal patriotism
Reiterating my response to Linda Chavez' article...

I've only seen three liberals (all Canadians--so no necessity for them to have any patriotism for USA) who I would ever consider as patriotic--due to the fact that they opposed the treasonous Meech Lake Accord and buried it.

Jack...
No, that is precisely what I don't want you to do. Then I would have to dig out the comparable rantings from the left and we would waste everyone’s time exchanging examples and arguing over whose were the more grievous instead of loving that our country provides us the opportunity to do so.

Ray, I Agree
So why did you bring it up?

So why don't...
...some of lefties on here engage in some of Mr. Hawkings talking points rather than, 'this argument doesn't work anymore...' nonsense. Except for Hal, I haven't seen it. And Hal didn't really bring food for thought. (Conservatives caused the Great Depression?? Nice try. There were a multitude of reasons for the Great Depression; and no, I don't hold the opinion that your personal ideology was the cause either.)

Btw, where is this great oppression of the media happening that I keep hearing about? Where is the facism that I am supposed to be afraid of? Is the fact that a federal agency listening to an intenational cell phone call from Yemen infringing upon your civil rights?

silly
Read Obama's book before you project your own fears onto him...you might find yourself reflected there!

Jack...
I didn't bring up rantings, you did. I only offered my understanding as to why Liberals claim patriotism and what they mean by it.

What a stupid topic
Mrs Obama,
a non politician made an off th cuff remark and she gets hammered for a week about it.

McCain says he is best suited to fix the boarder becase his state has the worst boarder problem and nothing is said.

This place is becomeing like the NYT. All slime no substance.

A few things
The US abandoned the ROC in 1948, when the American plan to have Mao and Jiang form a joint government failed and Marshall left China. In January 1950, the US made it clear it had no intentions to protect Taiwan from the expected PLA invasion. The CIA gave Taiwan 6 months before it fell.

ROC resolve on the off-shore islands in early 1950 and the outbreak of the Korean War changed things. The US decided to get involved in the war in Korea (a country it also threw over the wall in the same speech)and use its military to stop any moves by Mao on the island.

But this was done for its interests and not just Taiwan's. It was MacArthur who called it an unsinkable aircraft carrier.

Now fast forward, the US cut ties with Taiwan in 1979, withdrew from the ROC-US Mutual Defense Treaty and replaced it with the Taiwan Relations Act the same year. The TRA doesn't require the US to come to Taiwan's defense like the defense treaty, only to sell it weapons of a defensive nature--which Reagan violated in 1982 with the Third Communique.

If anything, it is Taiwanese pragmatism that protects Taiwan, not the military of an ally that has proved very fickle over the years.


Oh and...
"We defeated Japan, so Japan belongs to us?”

Well, maybe not all of Japan but that was the treatment of Okinawa from 1945 until 1972. Okinawa was returned to Japanese control in 1972--and if I recall the deal was Okinawa's return in exchange for Japan to let the Yen rise in value vis-a-vis the US dollar. The US still has a large presence in Okinawa which 85% of those in Okinawa oppose. Of course, in Japan proper it is not so unpopular as it is the Okinawans that get the short end of the deal and not Japan itself.

for AndyR
AndyR writes: "If Americans were all feeling proud of their country right now, none of the candidates would be having such success through promising 'change', and Hawkins wouldn't NEED to write this article."

But that's not what Michelle Obama said. In fact, she said the opposite.

She did NOT say "I used to be very proud of my country till Bush started doing blah-blah-blah....", which is what YOU seem to be claiming.

She said that she was NEVER proud of her country, until Obama started running for office. That means she wasn't proud of America under Clinton, or under Bush 41, or under any other President in her lifetime.

Which means she wasn't proud of America when the Berlin Wall came down. Were you?

She wasn't proud of America when the U.S. armed forces, in a brilliant military action with U.N. authorization, kicked Saddam out of Kuwait in the Gulf War of 1991. Were you?

Tell me, when were YOU last proud of America? Under Clinton? Under some other President? Never?

Loyal Democrat...
...is a royal loon. You have not read the Constitution of the United States of America. No where in our Constitution does it say the Government is:

"to give its citizens free health care, free education, sudsidized housing, guaranteed wages, job security, cheap food and energy, and all of the other things promised in our constitution."

Our country was not founded to become a socialist welfare state. Our Republican form of government is charged with "establish[ing] Justice, insure domestic Tranqulity, provide for the common defence, promotoe the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity..."

This "inadequacy" the Obama's have found is based on a Marxist philosophy to take power from the people and consolidate it into the government, thereby denying them freedom and causing dependency. Black Americans are still paying for that last fiasco, LBJ "Great Society." How come "progressive America" sounds so much like "old-Soviet Union?" That worked out well, didn't it?

Vote FairTax...Abolish the IRS!

Sorry Ray
Here is what you said.

"If only Liberals were as tolerant as we".

This is serious, because it is hard to engage in discussion when people won't even admit to saying what they said.

The US has freed billions
and has nothing to be ashamed of.

America has freed 1.5 billion since Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation and freed
3.94 million slaves.

In emulation, Alexander II Russia then freed his serfs (2/3/-3/4 of Russia's 67 million population in 1860), approximately 43 million people, expressly because Lincoln freed the slaves.

In 1898, America freed all the slaves of the Spanish Emp. by winning the Spn.-Am. War. That was 10-12 million in South America alone.

We freed Europe in WW I (368 million) and II (738 million). Then, after WW II, we created the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe and immediately keep the ravaged population from starving to death.

In Korea, we saved 2.36 million in the south from being conquered by a dynasty whose major ec. policy is starving the population.

And in Iraq, 150,000 US soldiers freed 24,000,000 Iraqis in a country twice the size of CA.

We should not be ashamed or demoralized that Iraq is not perfect. A semi-dem. Iraq will buffer Iran's nuclear ambitions, add a ME Arab dem. to Lebanon--maybe help Israel, protect the moderate Arabs, allow business and trade to flourish again (predicted 6% ec. growth this year), and serve as an ex. to the world.



IGO
you write:

why don't "some of lefties on here engage in some of Mr. Hawkings talking points rather than, 'this argument doesn't work anymore...' nonsense."

I did do that. I specifically pointed out where his main talking point, the one in big blue letters, was dead wrong.

for Jack
Jack writes: "All told, there is a great deal to be proud of in America. And there is a good deal of which to be ashamed. "

On balance, does the good outweigh the harm in your mind? And by how much?

90-10? 80-20? 51-49? 50-50?

ON BALANCE, don't you agree the U.S. has done FAR more good than harm in the world?

Where would the world be today if the U.S. had not actively opposed the Japanese Empire, the Nazi Third Reich, or the Soviet Empire? How many people did those three regimes combine enslave? Well over half a billion, yes? Who would have freed China from Japanese rule if the U.S. had not?

Did you know that prior to 1938 when Chamberlain sold them out, the Czechs had consciously modeled their democratic constitution on the U.S. constitution?

The U.S. has been the major force in the world opposing all forms of statism and socialism. If there is a global capitalism in the world today, it's America that has made that system work and made it dominant.

Maybe you're ashamed of that. But I'm proud of that.

America is not Utopia. But its track record is as benevolent as any other major power throughout history. No other superpower, from the Roman Empire through the British and Soviet Empires, ever sacrificed so much to create so much freedom and opportunity in the world.


libs
Beastie, Lilly, and their ilk should live in Meico city or Zimbabwe for a month. They'd kisss the US soil the minute they came back.
I also say to you libs...what have you done to make America proud??...whine and depend on other's hard work. I have no respect for any of you

Folks Thank you
Thank you very, very much. I cannot tell you how pleasing it is to watch the total and complete meltdown of the fundamentalist conservatives. It may be snowing and nasty outside but I am all warm and happy. LMAO

for Jack
Jack writes: "More importantly, it makes no sense to ask a black man or woman to accept that America has been a democracy since 1776 or so, when Democracy didn't really take hold for them until the Voting Rights Act of 1965."

Well, I intend to keep asking them to be proud of America for this reason:

Blacks in America had full voting rights everywhere except in the Deep South, where some states imposed poll taxes and other things. There were black congressmen and senators in Congress during this time period. The South remained backward but the rest of the nation had advanced considerably, especially during World War II.

And the Voting Rights Act of 1965 was 43 years ago. By the time Michelle Obama (who was born in 1964) turned 18, the Voting Rights Act had been in effect for nearly her entire life except for when she was still in diapers.

The Obamas have NOT experienced the type of discrimination that hurt blacks in the South before them. Sure, they can obsess over past discrimination like you seem to be doing. But that's an unhealthy way of dealing with failings, as any psychologist will tell you. Brooding over the past is unhelpful. What's helpful is learning from it and moving on.

That is what the Left does not understand. Leftists like you look backwards to what America has allegedly done wrong--and you remain forever morally paralyzed by it. That's neurotic.

By the way, Jews were victims of discrimination--even in the North--well into the 1950s. (Go see the movie "Gentleman's Agreement" sometime.) But they have become among the most fiercely patriotic of Americans. American anti-Semites like Father Coughlin and virtually the entire Deep South did NOT turn Jews off to America or get them to keep obsessing over America's evils like you seem to be doing.

There are only TWO groups in America who are obsessed with America's alleged evil: Blacks and leftists.

What a surprise.

Big Daddy writes:
Loyal Democrat...
...is a royal loon. You have not read the Constitution of the United States of America. No where in our Constitution does it say the Government is:

Big Daddy: Loyal Democrat is actually a conservative. He uses parody and satire about the moonbats, to make his point. BTW, you are not the first to misinterpret one of his satires.

Lincoln and shame
renny writes:
The US has freed billions
and has nothing to be ashamed of.

"America has freed 1.5 billion since Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation and freed
3.94 million slaves."

The proclamation didn't free a single slave and it was simply a wartime measure to prevent the British and French from coming to the aid of the CSA, the slaves would not be freed until December 6, 1865 when the 13th Amendment was ratified--eight months after Lincoln's death. Ironically, it was Georgia that put the amendment over the top--a state that left the Union to preserve it. Even if Georgia didn't, it would have been moot as Oregon ratified it two days later.

So you've never been ashamed...so nothing the US has ever done should be a cause of shame...care for me to list a few events most normal people would be ashamed of?


Big Daddy
LD's posts are satire. Pretty funny at times and other times hard to tell because he nails democrats so well it's hard to discern the satire from posts of real democrats.

SteveL
One thing of which I despair is the hope that c a conservative poster will actually pay attnention to what I wrote rather than what they want to complain about.

I agree that the US has, on balance, been a force for bettering the world. I specifically made a distinction between a "great deal" to be proud of and a "good deal" to be ashamed of.

However, as I stated earlier, the sieve of history and literature has sorted out hubris as a primary failing. A mindless pride in America, uninformed by the reality of her failings, is a danger.

This danger is evidenced by James J's mindless reaction against anyone who dares provide that counterbalance of reality.







Mexico
You know James, a good many Americans do live in Mexico. Have you lived there? Just wondering what experience you have to make the comparison. As for Zimbabwe or Haiti or DPRK--well I am sure if someone lived there and then came to the US, the US would be much better to them. Of course if they moved to Helsink they would have the same opinion. Yes, James, the US is a better place to live than Zimbabwe--any other "well duh!" observations you'd like to make--ice is cold, steam is hot, night is dark?

Akagi
"..Yes, James, the US is a better place to live than Zimbabwe--any other "well duh!" observations you'd like to make--ice is cold, steam is hot, night is dark? "

Not so fast have you seen the stats for living in parts of the US like parts of MS and LA? Not a whole lot different than some of those countries. Look at age of first pregnancy and education

Akagi writes:
The proclamation didn't free a single slave and it was simply a wartime measure to prevent the British and French from coming to the aid of the CSA, the slaves would not be freed until December 6, 1865 when the 13th Amendment was ratified--eight months after Lincoln's death. Ironically, it was Georgia that put the amendment over the top--a state that left the Union to preserve it. Even if Georgia didn't, it would have been moot as Oregon ratified it two days later.

Actually, it did free the slaves in those areas of the Confederacy not yet conquered, as Union armies advanced through the South, slaves in those areas were freed. How else do explain 181,000 African -Americans serving in the Union Army. BTW you ever hear of Juneteeth? It is celebrated on June 19, because on June 19th 1865 the Proclamation was put into effect in TExas by Gordon Granger, when he and a Union Army arrived in the state. The 13th Amendment was necessary to fre slaves in Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, FDelaware, and everywhere else slavery was stil legal.

Slaves
renny writes:


"In 1898, America freed all the slaves of the Spanish Emp. by winning the Spn.-Am. War. That was 10-12 million in South America alone."




Cuba ended slavery in 1887, and Puerto Rico in 1873. So I'd like to see how the US ended slavery in the Spanish Empire, since slavery had ended there well before 1898. I am also unaware of any South American country that was a colony of Spain in 1898. In any event, Brazi was the last country to abolish slavery in the western hemisphere and it was not Spanish, and it did so before 1898 in any event.




Hal
Even the worst place in the US is better than anyplace in Haiti or the DPRK. But yes, I am sure it is much better to be an elite in Mexico than a resident in a housing project in NYC..or even better to be an elite in Mexico than more than 90% of the people that post on TH and live in the US.

It isn't the lawyers and political elites in Mexico coming to the US in the dead of night--but poor peasants. Yes, it is better to be a illegal alien in the US than a poor peasant in Mexico...and at night it gets dark too..any other breaking news from James?

Akagi writes:
Hal
Even the worst place in the US is better than anyplace in Haiti or the DPRK. But yes, I am sure it is much better to be an elite in Mexico than a resident in a housing project in NYC..or even better to be an elite in Mexico than more than 90% of the people that post on TH and live in the US.

It isn't the lawyers and political elites in Mexico coming to the US in the dead of night--but poor peasants. Yes, it is better to be a illegal alien in the US than a poor peasant in Mexico...and at night it gets dark too..any other breaking news from James?

Akagi: You have to remember that Hal Doofus has stated quite explicitly that he hates the South. To put it bluntly, Hal is a bigot.

Hypocrite
I love how a right wing blogger makes political hey with the "hand over heart". "lapel pin" and Mrs. Obama's miss speaking and using her words out of context, to make them communist.

Than the same group of idiot Attacks McCain. Even this authors link to another web site has a picture of McCain upside down and in an unflattering expression.

Now the same right wing groups are attacking NY Times for using innuendos and vague rumors to attack McCain, which is what you have done to McCain and now Obama.

Hypocrites!

By the way I LIKE tradition and think people should stand at attention and hold their hand over their heart during the national anthem. I do think people should be proud of America, it's obviously one of the most prosperous generous nations on the planet. Everyone knows that, but there are problems and we can be better. I know the GOP hates that idea of speeking out, and they like an authoritarian grip on free speech that does not deviate from the PARTY LINE. Sorry.

I don't like that Obama does not hold his hand over his heart and that Mrs. Obama said FOR THE FIRST TIME...... but I am not going to accuse them of anything else but making mistakes. BTW Mrs. Obama meant to say was proud of politics in America, people rallying, not America her self. I'll take her for her word and SHAME on you for spinning it.

And if you are mad, sad or afraid of the DEMS and Obama, YOU HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT YOUR SELF BY THE FAR RIGHT NEO-CON AGENDA THAT BUSH & THE GOP TOOK. THIS IS BLOW BACK. PEOPLE HATE WHAT THE GOP POWER HAS DONE IN THE LAST 12 YEARS OF CONGRESS CONTROL AND 7 YRS OF WHITE HOUSE.

No one is listening to your rant about how if you vote for a Dem bad things will happen. TOO LATE BAD THINKS HAPPENED AND IT WAS THE Republicans that DID IT! Time for the other chuckleheads to get a shot at messing up.

Slaves
Yes and if not for the 13th, it would have been for the courts to decide if those slaves remained free--you know issues about the government taking property without due compensation. It is doubtful that proclaimation was even legal--of course Lincoln did a number of things that were of dubious legality.

So it was the amendment and not the proclaimation that freed the slaves--legally.

I am quite aware of the contraband units that were created. One of which was involved in the sacking of Darien, Georgia. I would use a more descript term of what was done there, but I'll be kind.

SteveL
I repeat, I despair that a conservative will ever respond to what is actually written.

I said nothing about Michelle Obama. Nothing. What she did or did not experience doesn't enter into this. I repeat: "... it makes no sense to ask a black man or woman to accept that America has been a democracy since 1776 or so, when Democracy didn't really take hold for them until the Voting Rights Act of 1965." Can you address that?

Can you explain to me why it is patriotic to endlessly repeat past glories but it is an "obsession" to think about past failures?

I think it is terrific that you brought up the Jewish community and how much they love America, but it sure doesn't help your argument. Jews are overwhelmingly liberal and vote Democratic, while the thrust of the article is that liberals aren't patriotic. Can you reconcile that?

And finally, you write: "The South remained backward but the rest of the nation had advanced considerably, especially during World War II". There is some truth to this, but try getting hold of the testimony from the Tuskegee Airmen. Brilliant service for the nation, yet hear them talk abotu angry it made them, how frustrating it was, to come back to a nation that made them use different toilets and wouldn't let them sleep in a good hotel.



Typical, predictable, pathetic.
I find it typical and predictable how many TH columnists have now taken time to write smear pieces about Obama in the past couple of weeks. It’s funny how FEW smear pieces were written about Obama prior to him becoming the front runner for the Democratic presidential nomination. I swear the loony fringe of the conservative party would smear Jesus Christ if he were a Democrat, it’s so pathetic.

By the way, are you OBAMA haters aware of how many people are showing up to vote in the Democratic primaries all over the country? Whether a traditionally red state or a traditionally blue state, the Democrats have almost doubled voter turnout of the Republicans in almost every state, not good news for the oh so inspiring John MCcain. Obama is bringing in a whole new wave of voters; these voters are just itching to vote the Republicans out the white house. See you in November.

Akagi
"Even the worst place in the US is better than anyplace in Haiti or the DPRK. But yes, I am sure it is much better to be an elite in Mexico than a resident in a housing project in NYC..or even better to be an elite in Mexico than more than 90% of the people that post on TH and live in the US. "

There are parts of this country like parts of MS, LA and Indian Reservations that are absolutely third world. But your point is taken overall. It is this nonsense that the US is without sign that is dangerous and well leads to what we have seen the Top leaders of the US completely out of touch with reality


True, but... (part 1)
This is a generally beautiful and true essay. The United States is a great nation, greater in every way that matters than any nation that has come before, and I am glad that someone has expressed these sentiments. Pride is not a sin - and we should be proud of ourselves as a nation.

But we can't go on like this. Our current political and economic trajectory is just not sustainable. The Republican administration has grown the largest government in the history of the world, deficit spent our way into stagflation, and over-extended us militarily to the far reaches of the world without any sort of coherent, rational long-term plan for victory.

Conservativism has reached an end state where the Republican President is a de facto socialist who outspends Democrats on social programs, our soon-to-be Presidential nominee is a liberal, and the neoconservative intellectuals who are setting the agenda are openly hostile to the limited government principles that made us great in the first place.

True, but... (part 2)
Republican politicians who cannot protect us from the onslaught of collectivism are useless at best, and complicit at worst. For years, we have had to watch our rights and opportunities erode at the hands of complacent Republican politicians who simply would not defend limited government principles because they thought their Party affiliation was an invincible shield and their conservative base would always rally to them no matter what. They counted wrong, as they are finding out now.

This election is about our long-term survival, not short-term problem avoidance, and we need to cleanse the Party. That means throwing out of office all the pig Republican politicians who thought that they could get away with betraying us indefinitely and are now fearfully squealing in protest against voter revolt. Short-term pain, long-term gain. There is no other way.

The road will be clear for those Republican politicians who pick up and carry the banner of limited government. As Michelle Malkin indicated, we should worry less about the Presidential election and spend our time seeking out those worthy of Congressional election.

Akagi writes:
Slaves
Yes and if not for the 13th, it would have been for the courts to decide if those slaves remained free--you know issues about the government taking property without due compensation. It is doubtful that proclaimation was even legal--of course Lincoln did a number of things that were of dubious legality.

So it was the amendment and not the proclaimation that freed the slaves--legally.

I am quite aware of the contraband units that were created. One of which was involved in the sacking of Darien, Georgia. I would use a more descript term of what was done there, but I'll be kind.

The legality of the Proclamation was never questioned. It freed the slaves. ThHe 13th Amendment just assured that slavery would never return. As a Southerner, I am quite well aware of what Union troops of all colors did the South as they swept through it.

But
But LJ, he is correct about the delta in Mississippi and parts of Appalachia. But some of the poorest parts of this region is WV and Kentucky..does Hal consider this the south?

I'd still think you'd be better off as a resident of the delta than a peasant in Oaxaca.


And Jack
You forget about the 442nd as well, one of the most decorated units in WWII and when they came back some wouldn't serve them because they didn't serve "Japs."


Akagi writes:
But
But LJ, he is correct about the delta in Mississippi and parts of Appalachia. But some of the poorest parts of this region is WV and Kentucky..does Hal consider this the south?

I'd still think you'd be better off as a resident of the delta than a peasant in Oaxaca.

The same cooments Hal Doofus made about LA and MS could be equally applied to parts of California, New York, Illinois, Massachusetts, Pennyslvania, and Ohio. But since Hal is such an anti-Southern bigot, he'll never say that. I agree with you about being an illegal here and a peasant in Mexico. Living in the DFW area, I see that every day. Illegals would rather be here than there.

Lumberjack7392/Akagi
"Akagi: You have to remember that Hal Doofus has stated quite explicitly that he hates the South. To put it bluntly, Hal is a bigot. "

LMAO not true at all. But the South's history is literally a blot on our history and continues to be a stain on our country in some areas. Hate not at all some parts are quite nice like HUntsville...

"But LJ, he is correct about the delta in Mississippi and parts of Appalachia. But some of the poorest parts of this region is WV and Kentucky..does Hal consider this the south? "

LOL for the most part yes but it isn't about the South it is about the country writing off all this human capital and literally eating its seed corn


The Wendy Delusion
This is all part and parcel fo teh same issue. Your claimthat you need to cleanse the party by throwing out all those moderate Republcians doesn't match with the reality that you are losing the elections. In effect, they are throwing you out.

Lumberjack7392
"The same cooments Hal Doofus made about LA and MS could be equally applied to parts of California, New York, Illinois, Massachusetts, Pennyslvania, and Ohio."

Not true at all. Check the census data. Those states while having some horrendus areas do have a modicum of social services like healthcare etc

"But since Hal is such an anti-Southern bigot, he'll never say that."

Because it simply isn't true

Jack/Wendy
"... In effect, they are throwing you out. "

Cleansing or purging I suggest are better words

Hal
Been to Atlanta lately? Or Jacksonville or Chattanooga or Orlando or Dallas (Texas, not Georgia) or Arlinton-Alexandria...

Let's see the South produced Jefferson (author of the declaration), Madison (author of the Constitution), Washington (father of the country). So it has always been a blot on the history of the US? Like me to go over the history of the west sometime?

Jack...
I 'brought up' tolerance in this forum at this time because Liberals have made it an ongoing central theme of their position. Yet they tolerate only that with which they do not disagree. A pretty low standard. We all do that. The point is to not let your intolerance of some of the things your country has done to so negate your patriotism as to dwell on nothing else, much less championing yourself as uniquely tolerant in the process.






Akagi
"Been to Atlanta lately? Or Jacksonville or Chattanooga or Orlando or Dallas (Texas, not Georgia) or Arlinton-Alexandria..."

Yes I have actually and with the exception of Dallas (too isolated) I am always eager to visit them again. But you make my point. These folks )(here) ignore the worst and only remember the best. To them the Confederacy had honor as did the following years of government forced segration. That is what they are trying to do with US history. (Oh, shhh don't tell them I have close family in the South and lived there haappily several times...)

"...Like me to go over the history of the west sometime? "

Don't forget the NE LOL In many cases the Southern slaves had more value and were less dispised than the immigrants in the North. There is enough "negative" and z'positive" history to go around. The thing here is the TH folk don't admit it

Simply untrue
Wendy writes: Friday, February, 22, 2008 12:35 PM
True, but... (part 1)
This is a generally beautiful and true essay. The United States is a great nation, greater in every way that matters than any nation that has come before, and I am glad that someone has expressed these sentiments. Pride is not a sin - and we should be proud of ourselves as a nation.


The US ranks behind a number of countries in standard of living as well as some in economic freedom, it falls ways behind in education, the amount of crime (violent and non-violent) and on and on. So it is simply untrue to say it is greater un every way that matters than any nation. Simply false, mindlessly false.

There is an article in Newsweek by Fareed Zakaria that points out that if the GOP had moved right as those of you suggest, they would have lost even worse in 2006. I disagree though that Asian-Americans turned against GOP because of the immigration battle. Few Asians are illegal aliens, you can't walk from Taiwan. And the immigration deal would have hurt them, since the deal would have eliminated the sponsorship of siblings and drastically cut the numbers of adult parents that could come in each year. But overall, I think he is correct.

Reagan and his policies were right for the time, but this is not 1976 or 1980 or 1984 but 2008.


loyal democrat
hey friends, loyal democrat is a SATIRIST!

--O-I am only one who voted against Iraq
Yes, and you were also the only candidate dead wrong.

Honor
Hal:

I think it did too. It at least in theory (not always in practice) was dedicated to limited government, state-rights and decentralized central government--what many of the founders desired. What do you have now? A centralized monster where state rights have been almost made extinct--the 10th Amendment basically repealed by fiat. And a military that fought a basically clean war (Fort Pillow and the Battle of the Crater, and Battle of Lawrence, KS being exceptions). The Union on the other hand--Darien, Georgia, the rape and ethnic cleasning of girls and women at Roswell and New Manchester, Georgia, the intentional destruction of civilian property, ethnic cleasning, the deliberate destructions of places of learning and worship, defiling of places of burial, using food as a weapon of war and on and on.

For all those that criticize me for my defense of Japan and its actions, look at the Union Army sometime. If the standards of 1945 were applied to 1865, Lincoln would have followed the fate of Tojo, along with Sherman, Grant, and a host of others. But the winners write the rules. As far as that goes there were a number of American and British in 1945 that should have joined Karl Donitz and others as far as that goes, but again, the winners get to make the rules.


But what do I know, I am an unhonorable Nipponphile and liar, just ask Myopine--of course he is senile, so what does he know?


"Loyal Democrat" isn't and America's
.... every knuckle dragging literalist jumps on him like flies on Poop!

Please be safe, dear "Loyal Democrat." Be too bad if some of our own proved dumber than the "Democrats," most of whom, it seems, long ago cottoned on to your ability to make monkeys of them all and everything they represent.

For myopine's benefit
Forgot the URL for the Zakaria article I cited above.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/112770


The Obamas sound
suspiciously like another "buy one, get one for free" deal. This opinionated, unfeminine black version of HRC and her weaselike, socialist husband a generation ago would have been found in the back alleys of San Francisco heading up a local Black Panther chapter. Such are their true beliefs.


Hal Doofus writes:
Yes I have actually and with the exception of Dallas (too isolated) I am always eager to visit them again. But you make my point. These folks )(here) ignore the worst and only remember the best. To them the Confederacy had honor as did the following years of government forced segration. That is what they are trying to do with US history. (Oh, shhh don't tell them I have close family in the South and lived there haappily several times...)

Let's see the DFW area has one of the busiest and largest airports in the world has 4 Nterstate highways running through it or terminating in it, several US highways, railroads, three other airports but it's too isolated.

BTW, one thing we Southerners can be thankful for is that your bigoted butt is no longer in it.

Hal Doofus:
You have admitted to hating the South. You are a bigot, and you and we know it.

Lumberjack, re; your last
post to HalD, good one, especially the last line!:)

Loyal Demacrat
Name a better country I don't think you can. Did America make Germany or Japan American, no ;they did not,. You should take a lesson from this. Our you a Utopian if so name one Utopian country, truth there isn't one. You need to answer the arguments of the article otherwise it is just a bunch of rhetoric. No America isn't perfect but most people on the liberal side want it to be. They don't know how to make it so, other than get rid of conservatives. Think about it.

chattymickey writes:
Loyal Demacrat
Name a better country I don't think you can. Did America make Germany or Japan American, no ;they did not,. You should take a lesson from this. Our you a Utopian if so name one Utopian country, truth there isn't one. You need to answer the arguments of the article otherwise it is just a bunch of rhetoric. No America isn't perfect but most people on the liberal side want it to be. They don't know how to make it so, other than get rid of conservatives. Think about it.

To repeat myself, chattymickey, Loyal Democrat is a satirist. He uses satire to make his point about the moonbats.

Loyal Demacrat
If I am not mistaken Michael Moore only showed the good (foreign or rich treatment) it is hardly inconclusive. Have you researched Cuba at all. Prescriptions are not affordable. Food is a scarce commodity, Cubans can't enter hotels that foreigners enter. do some research. Go to Cuba for your health care. there is no country in the world that doesn't use finance as a reason to deny service. Cost is taken into account in all countries.

Akagi
"....What do you have now? A centralized monster where state rights have been almost made extinct--the 10th Amendment basically repealed by fiat."

My view is that the Civil War severally damaged states rights and the civil rights wars of the 50s and 60s killed it. For better or worse

"And ....the deliberate destructions of places of learning and worship, defiling of places of burial, using food as a weapon of war and on and on."

Total war and I hope you realise that civil wars are the most vicious of conflicts...possible exception being religious wars but they are often the same

"...But the winners write the rules. …, but again, the winners get to make the rules."

That WAS true but changed with the WWII trials and then the UN with crimes against humanity etc. I was waiting to see what happened when Sharon left office as he was then eligible for the Hague because of the refugee massacres of Palistinians when he invaded Lebanon. Then he turned vegatable. Now the test will be Bush for the deaths of all those folks during stressed interrogations. I do know that as a military officer the rule of law was a given. A WWII naval interrogator was friends till he died with a few of his Japanese POWs. His reaction to Bush Regime's torture policy was simply: good guys do not use torture. Asked if they did during WWII his reaction was and immediate reply of NEVER. The man was on his deathbed

"But what do I know, I am an unhonorable Nipponphile and liar, just ask Myopine--of course he is senile, so what does he know? "

LMAO well we do know for certain that honor had no place in Japanese history LMAO. At least you properly evaluated the source. Like I said we set the bar high and should keep moving it higher. To do that, we need to admit mistakes and learn. The fundamentalist conservatives do not and that probably as much as anything explains the Bush Regime's crushing failure

not the Pledge the National Anthem
so I've been checking this at events, such as the Super Bowl and I've
noticed the majority of people do not put their hand over their heart
during the singing of the Anthem.

Do you THers or you Hawkins think that most Americans put their hands
over their hearts during the Anthem?

Take the poll.

You're slipping, Hal
I count only four times you've written "LMAO" on this thread so far.

Are you on a diet?

Persephone in SD
"... This opinionated, unfeminine black version of HRC "

MEOW??? LMAO

Okay, Hal...
I should have waited - three "LMAO"s in the last two posts.

Got to get that average back up there. Good job!

WHY!?!?
Look people, you can waste your time talking about anything you want, but please stop and look at the "substance" of this conversation:

Michelle Obama made some offhand reference.

Is Michelle Obama running for office?

Does her comment have anything to do with any pressing issue?

How does this discussion inform or persuade anyone on any issue that has any significance to the well being of this country????

Are you people insane or just stupid?

Explaining to the Obamas Why They Should
Beastie Boy, your comment on satire was not funny. If you say something I will take you at your word that you mean what you say. So Kiss My Mississippi Grits with your satire.

I say what I mean and mean what I say. I do not play games with people and try to feel superior by fooling them.

I am really serious about being proud of my country, patriotism, respect for the flag, and electing people who will defend the nation. I do not really have time for people like you who just think they are superior to other folks and play games.

So, if Loyal Democrat is a conservative let him say so and quit the so called satire.


Right on Seeker of Truth
_SeekerOfTruth_ writes: Friday, February, 22, 2008 11:31 AM
What a stupid topic
Mrs Obama,
a non politician made an off th cuff remark and she gets hammered for a week about it.

McCain says he is best suited to fix the boarder becase his state has the worst boarder problem and nothing is said.

This place is becomeing like the NYT. All slime no substance.

Primus54
"Got to get that average back up there. Good job! "

Hey now I can say Primus agrees with Hal and told him "good job". Limbaugh would be pleased

Japan
Hal:

The US didn't torture the Japanese POWS. They didn't need to. The Japanese felt they'd never be captured and thus the Japanese never trained on how to resist questioning by the enemy. They also believed the propaganda of how evil the Americans were and when they were treated in a very humane manner, well, they talked.

Now the US did engage in things like the unlawful killing of POWS who were captured on the battlefield--I know for a fact this happened in the Solomons and Eastwood seems to think it happened on Iwo Jima (as he has this in the film letters from Iwo Jima), but once the POWs were taken to the rear, they were treated well.

Now as for if what the US does today is torture (e.g. waterboarding) well...for others to decide.


Loyal Democrat...
..sorry for the misinterpretation...it is way too close to liberal reality to be taken as satire.

As I have said before, hope is not a qualification for being CINC of the greatest & strongest military on the planet, nor does it mean you deserve a vote.

National Anthem
And everyone is has to be the worst national anthem on the planet if not the entire universe. What do you expect when you add words to a British drinking song. Now the Soviets, they knew how to write an anthem. The ROC's is very well done as well. And they can both be sung by humans without sounding like a crane being strangled. I cringe everytime I hear it..and since few can sing it..it starts to have the aspect of a dentist drill or fingers on a chalkboard.




Not gonna work
This phony "not proud" chant coming from the far right will do nothing for McCain in November. It will fall as flat as the "cut and run" chant in 2006.

This is the sort of baloney that everyone is sick of. It will feed nicely into Obama's campaign.

Akagi
"The US didn't torture the Japanese POWS. They didn't need to. The Japanese felt they'd never be captured and thus the Japanese never trained on how to resist questioning by the enemy. They also believed the propaganda of how evil the Americans were and when they were treated in a very humane manner, well, they talked."

True but your point?

"Now the US did engage in things like the unlawful killing of POWS who were captured on the battlefield--I know for a fact this happened in the Solomons and Eastwood seems to think it happened on Iwo Jima (as he has this in the film letters from Iwo Jima), but once the POWs were taken to the rear, they were treated well."

I know for a fact that it happened in Italy. I can see on a front line where the need could arise in all out war - not rage or hate but military necessity

"Now as for if what the US does today is torture (e.g. waterboarding) well...for others to decide. "

Decided long ago. We actually prosecuted at least one Japanese for waterboarding I am told. What I find funny but sad is people arguing about what torture is like people arguing about what sex is.

Hal Donahue
See, Hal. I can find the good in anyone's posts.

Besides, "LMAO" is the only substantive thing you write.

Cheers!

chattymickey
Read lumberjacks and my post to Big Daddy. I see Big Daddy now sees the truth. He He.

About Right Persephone in SD.
Now here's a liitle backstage pass to a meeting with Mr. Empty Suit and his speech writers.

Obama has the floor. He is issuing the latest directives to the flacks. Let's listen in.

Obama:

"O.K. people listen up. As of today, there will be a new guideline concerning the number of times "hope" MUST be mentioned in any speech. I'm cutting it back to only 800 times. (applause heard from the writers). O.K. Knock it off. However, I am increasing the usage of the word "change" to 889 for any speech. (hiss and boos heard from the writers) Settle down. By the way, Michelle will be speaking tonight.(*gasp*) But she has agreed to let you guys write her remarks. (loud cheers) That's it. One last thing, someone has suggested I combine change and hope into "chanhop". Might save us a bundle on paper costs. I'm going on Oprah. Give me a few rough drafts. We'll see if it flys"

Hawkins incorrect re Obama and Pledge
I think that Mr. Hawkins is incorrect in claiming that Sen. Obama does not hold his hand over his heart during the Pledge of Allegiance. The photo allegedly showing this was actually taken during the National Anthem. While many -- including myself -- hold their hands over their hearts during the Anthem, it's not obligatory.

I just wanted to correct the record on this one. There's plenty to criticize about Sen. Obama, without making anything up.

He is a classic, America-hating, Euro-loving, tax-raising, pro-abortion, anti-marriage, anti-traditional-family, radical left wing socialist, with the same agenda as George McGovern. He is the #1 most liberal Senator. The only thing different about Sen. Obama is that he is the best political deceiver to come along in quite a while, perhaps even better than Bill Clinton. His bubble will burst as more people figure out that he'll never be able to magically unite the country behind the failed and discredited policies of the far left.

T.C./Persephone in SD
Have either of you met Hillary or Obama?

Primus54 writes:
Hal Donahue
See, Hal. I can find the good in anyone's posts.

Besides, "LMAO" is the only substantive thing you write.

Cheers!

Also, the only intelligent thing he ever writes.

Obama is about hope and change
I hope he leaves me at least a little change after taxes.

Let's hope the government is better at changing kidneys than they are with changing social security.

Hope our Iraqi allies have started looking for a change of address.

I don't suppose we can hope he will change after he's elected?



Hal
No. I know someone who met Hillary and found her down to earth and genuine.

I did, however, have the ocassion to meet Bill Bradley. This is a man I disagree with on almost every single issue. That said, I can remember few people who impressed me more. Bradley is a man of integrity and character who, despite our different political views, I have great respect for.

GG-AZ
"..His bubble will burst as more people figure out that he'll never be able to magically unite the country behind the failed and discredited policies of the far left."

Ahh see this is your fatal mistake. You are discribing exactly what happened with your version of conservatism and thinking that will transfer by magic to the moderate center representated by Hillary and Obama. That is why the droves of Ds and independants are turning out at the polls. Itis not the same at all. The only difference is your brand of extremism suffers from an innate flaw of incompetence. That roar of noise you hear is not for Obama is is water as you circle the toilet bowl of history. Good bye


Winston829
Prepare yourself for Armageddon.
Obaba will be the next POTUS due to the total stupidity of the electorate, the stupitity and weakness of the GOP, and the cupitidy of the mass media.
I sense your angst, deeply, because of my own heritage. You see, my great grand uncle was the Secretary to the first Duma in 1894.
Now you know my surname.

Hal Doofus writes:
Ahh see this is your fatal mistake. You are discribing exactly what happened with your version of conservatism and thinking that will transfer by magic to the moderate center representated by Hillary and Obama. That is why the droves of Ds and independants are turning out at the polls. Itis not the same at all. The only difference is your brand of extremism suffers from an innate flaw of incompetence. That roar of noise you hear is not for Obama is is water as you circle the toilet bowl of history. Good bye

There you go again, Hal, saying the Wicked Witch of Chappaqua and Braindead Abominable are moderates. They maybe moderately communist, but centrists they ain't. They have independently recommended $850+ billion in new spending in more government programs we know won't work, will be overbureaucratized, run way over cost estimates, and will do more harm than good. And their promise to pay for by repealing taxes on the wealthy will end up raising taxes on everybody.

Pride and obligation
western bondbeam: "So you are not pledging allegiance to the "country" or not pledging allegiance to the "governement". If you are against the government... fine I can accept that with no issues(but please tell us whose government you prefer)... however if you are against the country then I must say that you have compromised too much in your weakened conviction and your black and white world is now a pale grey."
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It is one thing to be less than proud of your country, and quite another to be "against" it.

Again, the answer is in my definition of patriotism, lifted as it is from others. It is my job to try to make things right, all the while fully acknowledging that there is a lot not to be proud of over the past seven years.

Who's looking out for you?
Diane: "We have NO current candidate with the American citizen as the priority. IF the elections take place at all, we will see if ANY elected officials have the fortitude to fight the destruction of America."
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I wouldn't say that we have no candidate but rather, that we don't have any viable candidates (Ron Paul is as close as it gets to meeting my criteria as to placing America and its citizenry first). As Bill'o asks, "who's looking out for you?"

Funny
John has a bit of a problem here. He states in his "column" that,

"...a man who doesn't hold his hand over his heart for the Pledge of Allegiance."

Obviously not true and a smear job. Then if you click on the hyperlink to his OWN "news" website, he states,

"Now, I don't think everybody has to wave a flag, wear a flag pin, or put their hand over their hearts during the national anthem to be patriotic but -- wait, on 2nd thought, if you don't hold your hand over your heart during the national anthem, that's a pretty good indication that you're not very patriotic."

So which is it John? Also, who gave you the right to question someone else's patriotism?

Are you part of the mob that smeared former Senator Max Cleland for not being "strong" on "homeland security"?

Or are you the brain behind the idiotic "Freedom Fries" movement?

Satura is fun, Bubba
Bubba: "Beastie Boy, your comm