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Friday, January 11, 2008
John Hawkins :: Townhall.com Columnist
How The Bradley Effect Blew Up The New Hampshire Polling
by John Hawkins
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There's still a lot of debate about what went wrong with the polling in New Hampshire. Personally? With the benefit of hindsight, I think that it's clearly, unequivocally the Bradley Effect at work.

Let's cover the bases on why I think that's so.

First of all, the polling on the Republican side was solid and did a good job of reflecting the actual results. So, there was obviously a factor on the Democratic side that was not in play with the Republicans.

Additionally, the polling definitely pointed towards a Barack Obama victory. There were 22 polls done in the last 3 days before the election, 20 of which had Obama winning, along with 1 tie, and 1 small Clinton victory. Moreover, there were 4 polls that actually included data from the last day before the election and Obama won them by 5, 7, 9, and 13 points respectively. If you compare those polls to the polls that included data from the two previous days only, Barack's margin of victory actually appeared to be getting LARGER. (Average victory of 8.5% on the 4 polls that included Monday data, and a 7% average victory on the 5 polls that included only Saturday and Sunday data).

So, did some event like Hillary crying or those radio stunt people holding up signs that said "Iron my shirt" cause a huge shift towards Hillary at the last minute? No, because it would have been reflected in the polling if that were the case.

Could it be that there were nefarious people at Diebold rigging the election as many left wing bloggers have already speculated? One, there's no evidence of that. Two, weren't these same conspiracy theorists claiming that Diebold worked for the GOP in the 2000 and 2004 elections? So now, Diebold takes orders from Hillary Clinton? Conservatives should file that information away and make sure to bring it up if and when the same people claim that the 2008 elections are rigged.

Could it be that Hillary just did a better job of getting out the vote? She may have, but a fantastic GOTV effort is still probably only worth a point or three at most. So, if a race is genuinely tied and one side has a much better GOTV operation, it may enable them to pull it out, but it won't overcome a 7-8 point advantage.

Well, what about a large block of undecided voters suddenly choosing to vote Hillary at the very last minute? Voters might break one way or the other as a race draws to a close, but they won't break hard or fast enough to cause that big of a shift. Moreover, it's difficult to believe that we didn't see more movement in the final polls if voters really were strongly ralling towards Hillary.

So, what's left? The best explanation is the Bradley Effect.

What's the Bradley Effect? The general idea is that whites lie to pollsters and falsely claim that they're undecided or voting for a black candidate because they're afraid that they'll be thought of as racists if they tell the truth. The effect is named for Tom Bradley, but it has also appeared in high profile races featuring Harvey Gantt and Doug Wilder, both of whom produced results at the ballot box that were too far apart from the polling data to explain with conventional wisdom.

One thing that people seem to misunderstand about the Bradley Effect is that it's not about racism per se. People aren't lying to pollsters because they're racists; they're lying to pollsters because they fear that they will be labeled as racists. That's not the same thing, although you wouldn't know it from some of the liberal commentary on the Bradley Effect.

Does the Bradley Effect happen in every election that features a minority candidate? No, it doesn't. For example, there was no Bradley Effect in the Tennessee Senate race in 2006, which featured Harold Ford running on the Democratic ticket.

However, what you have to consider is that New Hampshire was set up perfectly to create a Bradley Effect.

Why?

Well, consider the circumstances: Republicans probably wouldn't falsely claim that they're voting for Barack Obama because they're expected to vote for the Republican anyway. But, this was a primary; so there were no Republicans voting in the Democratic race. Minorities also aren't going to worry about being perceived as racist, but New Hampshire is almost 96% white, so there were very few minorities participating.

Next, which group of people do you think would be most likely to lie to a pollster and say they're supporting a black candidate out of fear of being perceived as racist? You'd have to think that would be white liberals, which probably describes the majority of voters in the New Hampshire primary.

Additionally, consider that in this case, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have almost identical views on the issues. So, you have Barack Obama, who's young, dynamic, loved by the media, and the first black man with a legitimate chance to be President, running against a corrupt, unexciting, inauthentic, establishment candidate like Hillary Clinton. You'd have to think that would add a little extra pressure on these white, New Hampshire liberals to say that they were voting for Obama, even if they really supported Hillary.

Now, you may say: "Gee, well why didn't the Bradley Effect kick in during the Iowa caucus?" Remember, in Iowa, it was a caucus so everyone could see how other people were voting. If anything, because it was public, it may have actually helped Obama's numbers there.

Along similar lines, you may wonder how much of an impact the Bradley Effect will have in Nevada and South Carolina? The answer: it probably won't be as big a factor in either of those two states.

Why? First off, neither of those states is as liberal as New Hampshire. Democrats in both of those states tend to be more moderate, hence less politically correct, and less concerned about appearing "racist." Moreover, those states just aren't as white at New Hampshire. South Carolina is 68.5% white and Nevada is 81.7% white. More minority voters mean more people who don't have to be concerned about being called racist for voting against Barack Obama. Does that mean the Bradley Effect will disappear in those states? Probably not entirely, but it will likely be considerably smaller.

Long story short, in hindsight, the Bradley Effect is probably the best explanation of why the polls were off so badly in New Hampshire.

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John Hawkins is a professional blogger who runs Right Wing News, Linkiest, and Viral Footage.
 
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Diebold at it again!
I love this. Democrats thinking there were voting irregularities in their own election! Even Kucinich was claiming NH voters were being disenfranchised due to a difference between manual and machine ballots. Now it's not just evil Republicans manipulating results, but certain Democrats are somehow in on the game.

I also love that Democrats are fearful of being labeled racists. Welcome to what conservatives go through daily. By the way, would any Republican candidate who said "Obama hasn't done the spade work to be president" still be running for president?

did the queen manipulate the polls?
could it be that the queen and her cronies have been able to somehow figure out a system to manipulate the polls? If so, Obama should conduct his own private polls and he will know exactly where he stands.

BTW, Obama is both black and white, so he really isn't a "black candidate" since he is also a white candidate. think about it...

Bradley Schmadley
I don't think the Bradley Effect was responsible but for a point or two, if that, more likely it was the candidate himself. NH voters are not the avg bear, and came out to check the Obamessiah out and like me they found his beautiful oratory lacking. I saw his victory speech after Iowa and cannont recollect a more vacuous address! It was indeed in a beautiful pkg, but it was an empty one just the same.

Three percentage points
isn't a "great" win... she's still vulnerable.

Freud is present
The fixation that republicans have over pollsters is anally retentive gibberish. When the polls don't go your way, you don't believe in them so get over it!

Same Boat
as Sgt. Relic. Flat out don't know, but I am inclined to agree with..........

Will. He thinks the Bradley efffect was only responsible "for a point or two."

With..................

momma. "Obama is both black and white....."

And finally with.......................

Willy Victor 32. "Three percentage points isn't a great win...she's still vulnerable." I concur.

And she won't be able to go with the crying thing, real or not, again. Same goes for the sign business.

However, watch for new theatrics. And watch for one of them (like the fake question at the townhall type debate about a month ago) to backfire.

LOL explaining BS
I’ll call it the coin effect. It works like this; I predict that heads will win. I flip the coin the first time and tails win. I flip it again and tails still wins. On the third flip heads win. I will pull that up and say “see, my prediction was accurate here. Those other two times were inaccurate because the coin lied.”.

The facts are that these polls are inaccurate, they are always inaccurate, and the news media will always pull the good ones after the fact and try to say that they were ok.

Personally I think the polls are used in the beginning to steer voters. The polls are just another form of survey where the surveyor can design them to get what ever outcome they want.

Bradley Effect, Independents, Undecideds
All of the above plus the "science" of polling. One excuse from Rasmussen was that there were 38 percent undecided. If you find 38 percent undecided, how will you determine who or what is the winner or possible winner in a tight election? My answer: too close to call or I don't know. If I were a Democrat voter and someone asked for which I would vote, why would I not tell the person that it would be Klintoon, or Obami? Why lie about voting for either? I didn't predict who would win so I have no excuses like the pollsters.

I never trust polls
and this just goes to show that they are unreliable.

No ice on the sidewalk = votes for HRC.
Wrong. Always remember to look for the simple explanation. It was the warm weather that brought out the older stay-at-homes for a record NH primary and almost all of them voted for Hillary.

for Will
Will writes: " NH voters are not the avg bear, and came out to check the Obamessiah out and like me they found his beautiful oratory lacking. "

But that could not have caused a 10 point shift in the polls in just a single day.

The polls, taken up to one day before the primary, showed Obama actually pulling away from Hillary. If voters had been getting second thoughts about Obama's rhetoric, you would expect the polls to show the race tightening in the last few days before the primary--but they didn't.

This was a sudden, massive, unexpected shift that took place RIGHT IN THE VOTING BOOTH. That can only mean that folks really did lie to the pollsters. Even if you're right that voters were having their doubts, they should have told the pollsters "Don't know" rather than "Definitely voting for Obama"--but they didn't. Some of the respondents who told the pollsters they were definitely going to vote for Obama clearly didn't do it.

Who will "out victim" the other ? ? ?
Hillary cried "Sexism" first to win NH. Now Barak wants to cry "Racism"; whatever will the Dems do?

This analysis is all wet.

Buchanan's article (also on Townhall) is a far more plausible explanation.

The polls were oiff for the same
reason as the so-called Republican "focus group" they had on the debate last night. They were just discussingt this on Fox showing the group responding to questions about the issue. Most of them seemed to be heavy military hawks, ie retired military. They even had one female black. Now I am sure that there are a few black female Republicans in SC maybe even more than a few, but I would hardly think that a focus group of 28 people that included black females would be representative of Republicans.

BTW, her answers, as given on Fox, were all liberal.

I believe
the Bradley Effect may also have been in play in the 2006 MD Senate election. Polls right up to the week of the election showed Michael Steele (R) neck and neck with Ben Cardin (D), and then Cardin won by like 7 or 8 percentage points. I thought at the time that alot of people were telling pollsters they would vote for Steele and then just couldn't bring themselves to do it. It's a shame - he was a breath of fresh air in the People's Republic of Maryland.

Polls
are one of the big reasons we have such low voter turnout in general elections.
Candidates speak to the polls instead of what they believe so we have no idea what their intents are.
Candiates who speak their minds at the expencse of popularity tend to be conservative but in this instant gratification age, not many seem inclined to accept that independent thought can be a good thing.
I would prefer that we get rid of the polls and make politicians speak their opinions from the vacuum of their own experience.
Then you would see REAL tears.

So why didn't edwards do better.
He's neither black nor female.

Lost in Paradise
I am so glad to be overseas during this national circle jerk. It is actually kind of funny from over here. Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I move my arm like this............

What's worse: being a racist or sexist
I think it is true that there is worse social stigma about being a racist than a sexist. The popular image of a racist is that of an uneducated buck-toothed backwoods trapper named Cletus. The popular image of a sexist is a lot more flattering: a powerful CEO for example could be a sexist and nobody would think twice about it.

People vote based on how they think their vote will define them, not based on which candidate is the best.

privacy of voting booth cuts both ways.
Why would not it be just as likely that when a New Hampshire voter steps inside the curtain to privately cast his vote, that he or she rejects the "inevitability" of Hillary, that he is "free" to vote his conscience in private..even for a black man?

If the "Bradley Effect" compels voters in the privacy of the voting booth to fall victim to their supposed "racism", why would it not just as likely "free" a voter to vote FOR a black candidate? He would be immune from socalled public pressure or censure.

Maybe the Bradley Effect was the cause for Hillary defeating Obama in New Hampshire, but I just think this knee-jerk explanation that Americans are invariably "racist", does not hold water, altho I DO AGREE with Hawkins' implied argument that white liberals are the most prone to white "guilt" associated with perceptions of "racism", as reflected in all their convoluted and bizarre machinations to "prove" just how tolerant they really are...by their invariable foisting of affirmative action onto others, for instacne.

jerabaub
No it doesn't work both ways. Nobody voting for Obama is going to pretend they are voting for or Edwards. Especailly among liberal democrats. These are the same people who say if you don't vote for Obama then you're a racist. They proudly define themselves in the most self-aggrandizing manner as champions of anti-racism and progressive thought and they prove it by loudly bragging about who they vote for.

That isn't to say that Obama isn't the best candidate, but your dead wrong about someone being embarrassed to vote for him. Quite the contrary. People are embarrassed to not vote for him in fear that they'll be labeled as a racist.

Coming home to roost?
Perhaps the Dems (i.e. Libs) are now strangling on their own P.C.! Cower in the voting booths because: 1) IF they vote against Hillary they are called "SEXIST" - and 2) IF they vote against Obama they are called "RACIST". So they "sneak" their choices against the scrutiny of the POLLSTERS - AND the magnifying glass of the Press. Point mentioned above.

Point of concern:
Obama is INEXPERIENCED and will be TESTED IF he wins the White House, much like the former Soviets did at EVERY new President. He will FAIL the first crisis.
Hillary is SELF-MOTIVATED and her concerns are NOT for the American people, but for critical Marxist ideals rammed through an "afraid to be Sexist" Congress. Don't think for one moment that she will NOT use that TRUMP CARD!

It's about time we STOPPED voting for people because of cosmetic and endearing charisma - and vote for the "GUT" quality of a person who will NOT back down under any type of adversity. You will NOT find this in the current Democratic roster.

It's about time that the "Silent Majority" spoke up, the ones tired of P.C., false promises, and corrupt politicians, lawyers and lobbyists - and voted ALL of the misfits out. No matter which Party affiliation.

I speak as a Retired US Navy Cold War veteran .... this next election is CRITICAL and deserves critical scrutiny for ALL candidates. Lest anyone forget - we ARE at WAR.... the only difference is that this war has NO FRONT LINES.

The Bradley effect
The Bradley effect is a convenient source of explanation for people who promote racism. The suggestion is an insult to New Hampshire voters.
Ohg.
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/01/09/chris-mattthews-racis t-chauvenist/

David Austin
According to the article, thd Bradley Effect supposedly causes whites to lie to pollsters, claiming they will support a black, when in fact they only say so to avoid being labelled "racist". And presumably, in the privacy of the voting booth, their racist natures reassert themselves by rejecting a black candidate.

If that is what the Bradley Effect alleges, what does that say about American whites...we are either outright racists or are fearful of being so accused?

I may be wrong, or I may be right, but I reject the implication of the Bradley Effect. I don't think most whites are inherently racist, altho my original posting did make the argument white liberals are often so steeped in the mythology that racism exists, that they conjure up affirmative action programs with which they foist upon the rest of us.


Ohg Rea Tone
Succinct and true.

Ohg Rea Tone ...
You and I have both seen how people are unfairly labeled as a racist if they don't vote for the black man. That's unfair, and you know it's unfair.

Suggesting that happens may insult NH voters, and it may even promote racism among those who are already racist, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It does. And I would think that if I were Mr. Obama that I wouldn't want people to vote for me just because they didn't want to be labeled as a racist.

So what do you do ... mislabel people like Chris Matthews a racist because he's willing to speak the truth? I don't think even Mr. Obama would approve of that.

Denying reverse-racism exists is willfully ignorant reverse-racism in it's purest form.

Bradley effect
It wasn't the Bradley effect. Old, uneducated, poor women was who pushed Hillary to victory. And they voted for her because the felt sorry for her--all these evil men beating up on her and making the poor dear cry.

And most do see Obama as black, because the media see him as black just as they see Tiger Woods as black even though his mother is Thai and he himself doesn't consider himself to be black. You never hear the media call Tiger or Obama biracial but as African-American. For the media, it is the one drop rule.


gyrphonslair
I pretty much agree with you on the democratic field being not being able to stand up to our adversaries.

But I strongly reject the neocons. I reject not talking to our adversaries.

It only serves to satiate a gullible kool-aid drinking minority that automatically equates communication with our opponents with surrending to them.

We should do what is in our national interest, period. Demonizing regimes and pitching hissy fits by refusing to acknowledge their existence really has served us well historically.

50 years of such a policy has sure caused the early demise of Fidel Castro's regime.

jerabaub
>And presumably, in the privacy of the voting booth, their racist natures reassert themselves by rejecting a black candidate.

Wrong, that is NOT what the Bradley Effect is all about. Can you even conceive of the concept that that many people agree more with Hillary's political ideas and don't want to be called a racist for doing so? Apparently not.

too many "beings"
forgive the first sentence of the 10:33 posting.

Anti-Pollsters are likely to blame
I'm guessing that Hillary voters are more likely to hang up on pollsters. They are the success-driven working-women and working-men who don't have time for anyone who sounds like a telemarketer. The Obama lovers are more likely to be the unemployed liberal arts majors who have all the time in the world to engage a pollster.

Heck, pollsters probably enjoyed the friendly Obama voters so much that they assigned the hangups to Obama voters to give him a psychological boost in the polls.

David Austin
I understand many people support Hillary because of her positions.

I never claimed they didn't.

I only claimed the Bradley Effect's implication that whites are racist simply by telling pollsters one thing on whether they'll vote for a black man, and voting differently once in the voting booth, is a stretch.

SOME people of all races engage in racism.

trolling jerabaub
>It only serves to satiate a gullible kool-aid drinking minority that automatically equates communication with our opponents with surrending to them.

The problem is that you don't "communicate with". Instead, you and your trolling brethren "communicate to". Big difference, and very ineffective. It's almost as if you think that if you concede a point of reason like "the Bradley Effect exist" that you think you'll somehow be contaminated and allow your opponents some small victory.

In reality nobody wins unless all parties correctly defines all elements of the problem.

sorry jerabaub
based on your last post it seems I had you wrong, at least partially.

its pretty obvious
my wife who is not really political saw the excerpt of hillary and immediately said "why don't they leave her alone".
another pundit said his wife and mother in law had the same response.

now i know, i know that this is unscientific and the idea that sympathy towards another woman could be a voting pattern is unique but the reaction from some women was so visceral that it makes sense.

second, the youth vote didn't turn out.

third, an experienced new hampshire journalist said exit polling is insulting to many in new hampshire because they think it is no ones business and may have lied just to stump the exit pollers.

In Iowa.
voters had to raise their hands in front of their neighbors. Still the Bradley effect?

unbelievable
It is unbelievable that some women would view the academy award winning performance from the ice queen with anything but disdain. Crying is a sign of weakness, particularly emanating from a so called "strong woman". How many divides do we have to foster in this country? We have already reduced men to ignominy, they are afraid of doing anything that could be viewed in any way as "anti woman" so they walk on egg shells and disappear into the woodwork around "powerful women". The balance has definitely shifted and it is still not equal. Women have managed to have all the power and they are still not happy. If NH female voters voted for her because they "felt sorry for her" or because they "thought the men were ganging up on her"...then feminism as it is has taken a couple of giant steps backwards. Since she used the oldest female dirty trick in the book we can assume that we will see more antics out of her. Now, will women in other states be just as gullible and easily led? Time will tell.

religious lib
I think it's true some women viewed that video of a Hillary near tears, and came away with a sense of sympathy for her.

That may be a factor as to why she won. It may even be a considerable factor.

HOWEVER, given the previous communications I have had the good fortune to participate in with another poster, I certainly am not suggesting women who voted for Hillary did so only because of a sympathy appeal, or only in reaction to a black alternative, and NOT due to the issues Hillary embraces.

I have learned my lesson on that score, by God.

Obama
someone drew parallels between Tiger Woods and Obama. Tiger is 50% asian and Obama is 50% white. By rights, Obama can say he is white but just "reads" black. (reads being a reference to color in decorating)....what is so sad is that the media is deciding this issue and not the candidate and the people. It is even more upsetting that this is an issue at all. Obama has an amazing education and a presence and this is the issue that some are dwelling on in 2008? Did I miss something? Are we going backwards as a country?

momma
wait a minute i have seen bill clinton, both bushes, and mitt romney cry (3 times) in the past few years and months in romneys case.

does that make them weak?

isn't it a double standard to say women can't cry but men can.

g.w. bush cried yesterday at a holocaust museum.

as far as "acting" i have heard no one but you make that claim. anyone who saw it knew it was authentic.

now her motivation may be questioned but the incident was real.

jerabaub
i did not mean to imply that was the only reason.

that is why i included other points.


what double standard?
religiouslib, around the coffee machines a lot of people are saying that it was not genuine. As regards crying being a sign of weakness the phrase "never let them see you cry" wouldn't exist f that were not so. As regards the Bushs and clinton and romney crying one would have to look at the circumstances under which they cried to make a true judgment as to whether or not the crying in the particular moment was or was not a sign of weakness. But, remember Edmund Muskie? This country handed him his walking papers after that incident It was the same kind of situation as the ice queen engaged in. So, there was certainly a double standard there, the male was finished politically and the female got the votes.
Do you remember the incident with George Romney? He said he was "brainwashed" and, after that his candidacy was not viable.
There are definitely double standards, women always come out ahead, they are always given a pass and men simply aren't.

crying
"as far as "acting" i have heard no one but you make that claim. anyone who saw it knew it was authentic."

a number have made this claim and you can add my name to this list. Nothing that woman does is done without being fully thought out--it was completely planned and if you think her crying was real, then I have some property a few miles east of Collins Avenue in Miami you might be interested in buying. And just for fun let's say she was really about to cry...do you really want someone so weak as president that something as trival as a political campaign brings that person to tears? If something so trival brings you to tears, perhaps this isn't the job for you.

But of course, her tears were simply for effect to get idiotic old women to vote for her--and it worked. But the ends justify the means, right?


momma
"around the coffee machines"

come on, any one watching that could see it was real.

like i said, she could have been crying because she thought she was going to lose not some idealistic cry for american but to say it wasn't genuine is just silly.

are you a woman?

you sure seem to dislike women.

the idea that never let them see you cry is a truism is certainly strange.

it seems to me one who never cries is more likely to have emotional issues.

Who is John Hawkins?
It's clear everything is written as US against them. Them being the evil Liberals, secular progressives.

But what is a John Hawkins? PhD in political science? Constitutional Law Expert. Mathematical and Statistical professor?

I am getting SICK of all the guessing by people who HAVE absolutly NO CLUE WHAT IS GOING ON.

1) Hillary faked emotion. BTW Mit has cried about 3 or 4 times, George H Bush and Randy "Duke" Cunningham (hookers and bribes, Republicans favorite past time) have BALLED like big babies in public. Hillary's voice cracked. She has more balls than any of you wussies.

2) it was all the undecideds.

3) Now its the Bradley Effect.

GIVE ME A BREAK AND SHUT UP.


Here is the cruel truth. THE PEOPLE decided, not polls. After 7 years of BUSH and +10 years of GOP rule, the PEOPLE are SICK of the "Conservatives", Republicans and Karl Rove politics. The GOP is full of liars, cheats, crooks, rasist, perverts. GOP = mass deficit spending, corruption, earmarks, sex scandals (pedophiles, homosexuals and prostitution connoisseur) and most of all incompetence and partisan BULL.

I'm no Obama fan. He imitates Martin Luther King speech inflections & cadence. He's no more shallow than Rudi Guliani who repeats 9/11 like he has Tourettes Syndrome.

Hillary is not perfect but the hate heaped on her, is over blown 1000 times. People hate her because they are told to, and all you lock stepping, kool aid drinkers get in line for your cup of HATE.

The PEOPLE are going to clean house and the White house will be a Dem. Sorry, too bad but the RIGHT WING deserves to get screwed after the disaster and wantoned disregard of law, constitution and common sense the represents Bush and the GOP.

crying
religiouslib, I watched it and many others and, based onpast performance, I felt it was a masterful performance. So we can agree to disagree.

Owing to the climate in our country today I would venture to guess that most people want to elect a strong president who knows how to think, can control their emotions, and knows how to get the most out of the people they choose for their administration for the benefit of all Americans. The reason for the way the democratic process plays out is to give people the opportunity to see the candidates and discern whether or not they are presidential material. As regards crying and may I bring up her anger in the debate and how her eyes looked at the other candidates and made more than one person cringe, let's just say that most people would probably not want to elect a crying president.

yesterday on the MSM your candidate, the ice queen, was accused of not liking men.


staus quo
jetpilot, the very things you are railing about can be said of the Clinton administration. If you want to get rid of the Bush dynasty which the process is getting rid of for you then maybe you ought to consider getting rid of the Clinton dynasty and starting with a completely clean slate. This country needs new blood, new thoughts, new ideas and a new outlook, not more of the same old status quo that the ice queen represents. She is old news.

Hillary: America's Jiang Qing
No, I hate her because I hate her not because people tell me to. I don't want to put a power mad American Jiang Qing in power. Does the phrase "fire their axxes" ring a bell? Rose law firm billing records? Filegate? Disregard of the law...the Clintons?..are you trying to be ironic?


momma
personally i do not like hillary.

just for the record
i am a center left liberal-- registered independent and for now support obama.

in fact i almost agree with your intrepretation of her eye contact although you go a little to far.

yes we need strong leadership but a little human emotion is also necessary for one in a leadership role.







emotional issues
religious lib wrote: "it seems to me one who never cries is more likely to have emotional issues."

It seems to me that anyone who would be publicly humiliated over and over again by their spouse, a sitting president, and still remain with said spouse "is more likely to have emotional issue."

leadership and emotion
religious lib, have you noticed how we independents are finally having our say? I do agree with you, a leader does need to display a little human emotion but it is how and when it is displayed that shows true leadership.

jetpilot = hate
Funny how jetpilot rails about GOP "hate", in the midst of a name-calling venomous tirade. I believe it's safe to say that the question at hand was not WHO won the democrat primary, but rather WHY the polls showed Obama to be far ahead when in reality he was behind. I would think that a democrat would want to know the answer to that too. Did Hilary cheat on election day? Were people lying to the polls? Maybe (this is my theory) the pollsters just aren't as good at getting a "random" sample as they thought, and they were not polling a lot of people who went and voted.

Bradley Effects
It seems to me that "The Bradley Effect" is a universal: men and women are not bound by what they say for social accomodations, but by what they do.

That said, I continue to maintain that all Americans are African Americans. The arguements are either about Tribe or Date of Emmigration. Tribalism is by far the most worrisome tendency.

momma
yes because the country has been so polarized, the independents and moderates are being given the opportunity to move the country in another direction.

we have been stuck in the same discussion for 20-30 years and we need to move in a new direction.

i understand your statement on hillary but it is hard to judge from the outside of a marriage.

religiouslib
true, a marriage is very personal and private, however, I can't help but wonder if many female Americans would not have enjoyed her taking a public swipe at him. The fact that she didn't is amazing to many and does speak to her need for privacy.

Don't rule out fraud
Something very similar occurred back in 2000 when Clinton ran for the Senate against Rick Lazio. The polls registered Clinton ahead by a narrow margin that did not exceed the margin of error. When the actual votes were counted, Clinton won by 12 points.

I don't know how she does it; it's certainly not about Diebold machine reprogramming, no matter what the nutroots insist. But "Clinton" means "fraud" in all languages (think Hsu, Paul, Huang, Foster...) So, I'm interested in knowing what really happened.

Since major polling organizations are also interested in knowing what happened, we may get some sound, technical analysis out of this. Stay tuned. But don't rule out fraud.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

Polls
You want to get the most accurate polls, so they poll Democrats (and not independents) and poll those that voted in the last election and the last primary since they are more likely to vote--i.e. polls of the likely voter, not simply the registered voter.

When the "unlikely" voter goes to vote as well it screws up your polls.

Politicians crying
religious lib, as usual saying things that have to be seen to be believed, says this:

"It seems to me one who never cries is more likely to have emotional issues..."

{Deep sigh.}

Ok. So George HW Bush, Ronald Reagan, Tony Blair, Britt Hume, Gerald Ford, Dick Cheney, Harry Reid, John Kerry, Clarence Page, Nancy Pelosi, Anton Scalia, Clarence Thomas, John Paul Stevens, Ruth Bader Ginzberg, Dan Quayle, Tip O'Neill, and a thousand other well-known faces who have never cried in public -- THOSE we suspect of emotional issues.

And Hillary Clinton is an emotional rock.

Honestly, man, do you eat peyote for breakfast every morning? because the utter, insane NONSENSE that comes out of your mouth, I wouldn't accept from a damn 9th grader, and it's really, truly frightening coming from an adult who actually votes.

A) If it's genuine, it's evidence of immense self-pity and a narcissistic sense of entitlement, and it's exactly the sort of thing that men have pointed to for years when they say most women aren't fit to lead. Hillary has been handled with oven mitts by the press, and has barely ever had to answer a single difficult question.

B) If it's not genuine, it's manipulation of such depth that it illustrates deep-seated contempt for the voting public. And the likelihood that it's not genuine is near 100%.

C) Who the mother freak cares? Ms. Clinton is one of the most vicious human beings any of us have ever encountered, and deserves to be in stocks or in prison much more than she deserves to be in the White House. So she's human? Bah. None of the candidates are Martian, are they?

politicians who have cried in public
Mitt Romney’s eyes filled with tears Monday as the Republican presidential contender recalled watching the casket of a soldier killed in Iraq return to the United States and imagined if it were one of his five sons. Adding a poignant twist to a story he often tells on the campaign, Romney recalled the scene at Boston’s Logan International Airport while he was Massachusetts governor. [AP, 12/17/07]

George Washington "was obliged to wipe his eyes several times," according to the account of one Dr. Cogswell, at his heady arrival in New York for his swearing-in as the first President. And Teddy White wrote that "the elegant and controlled" John F. Kennedy had "tears in his eyes" the night he was elected in 1960.


The pictures were just what the White House wanted: A teary-eyed President Bush presenting the Medal of Honor posthumously to a slain war hero in the East Room. [Washington Post, 1/12/07]

A tear rolled down Bush’s cheek during the event, an extraordinary display of emotion by the commander-in-chief. Bush has been known to tear up and reportedly once cried in a private meeting with war widows. [Chicago Sun-Times, 1/12/07]

Wiping away tears as he recalled praying at Camp David before ordering the start of the Persian Gulf war, President Bush today offered a testimony of emotion, politics and faith to a cheering crowd of thousands of Southern Baptists. [New York Times, 7/7/91]



The Bradley Effect
Put aside the name calling and the emotional ranting and raving and just answer this one question. Why did Hillary win in every voting district where the voting machines were used and lost in every voting district where the ballots were hand counted?

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

So stop being a knee and jerk at everything that normally sets you off and start being a brain and think about things. Be willing to challenge some of your opinions, not your principles, just your opinions.

I would hope that anyone who responds to my question would do so using their brain and not their knee.

more about public tears
For a little historical perspective, says Lutz, author of "Crying: The Natural and Cultural History of Tears," it's helpful to look back to the 19th century, when skillful politicians like Abraham Lincoln used tears as a natural part of their oratory.

The tide later shifted against male crying, but in the last 30 to 40 years male crying has gained in acceptability. "Every president since Ronald Reagan has used tears at some point," says Shields, the Penn State psychologist.

As for women politicians, many remember the 1987 incident in which Rep. Patricia Schroeder, D-Colorado, had to defend herself against charges of weakness after she wept while announcing her decision not to run for president. "I think it's a sign of compassion," she said later.

Military figures have cried at critical moments in history. Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf cried at a Christmas Eve ceremony in front of his troops, and when interviewed by Barbara Walters, Lutz notes.


religiouslib
If Hillary had been crying at a funeral or some other type of emotional ceremony, it would have been understandable (though, considering the source, her sincerity would have been suspect). Hillary was "crying" over the pressures of the campaign. It sounded like a ploy for sympathy.

Personally, I have to wonder if even that was not somewhat calculated. This is the same woman who "planted" people to ask her questions during her townhall meetings. My big issue with Hillary is not her crying, but her all-around phoniness.

why it isn't the Bradley effect
Because the Bradley effect would have also shown up in the exit polls. But the exit polls got it right.

Religious lib, beyond belief.
I've never met an individual so COMPLETELY INCOMPETENT with facts. Honestly, dude, EVERY SINGLE ISSUE YOU RAISE contains these unbelievably silly logical errors.

All those instances of tears used in public. Fine.

Pick out ONE that

a) occurred because the person in question was being treated too roughly by the circumstances, opponents, or the press; and

b) were taken to be a positive trait.

{sound of crickets chirping...}


(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

Crying
Stonewall Jackson cried too among others. But it isn't about the crying, but the context. Crying because of a political campaign? If that makes you cry what happens when you have to send thousands to their deaths in battle?

Of course we know this wasn't real but a ploy to gain the votes of the easily mislead--and it worked perfectly.


Crying
for someone else's pain shows compassion. There is nothing noble about crying out of self pity. Definitely not a sign of a good leader.

gf
Right on!

SWITW
But GF, she was crying for someone else's pain...remember she is the smartest woman in the world with all these great plans for the country and people just aren't smart enough to understand this and she doesn't want you to fall back you know...crying for your stupidity...if you were just a tad bit smarter you'd understand this.


inkling revival: pot call kettle black
inkling revival states to religiou lib:

"Honestly, man, do you eat peyote for breakfast every morning? because the utter, insane NONSENSE that comes out of your mouth, I wouldn't accept from a damn 9th grader, and it's really, truly frightening coming from an adult who actually votes."

the he turns around and spouts off:

"Ms. Clinton is one of the most vicious human beings any of us have ever encountered, and deserves to be in stocks or in prison much more than she deserves to be in the White House. So she's human? Bah. None of the candidates are Martian, are they?"

dude look in the mirror, you sound EXACTLY like what youre criticizing...and tell us all EXACTLY WHEN DID YOU MEET MS. CLINTON and experience her viciousness and vile humanity?..those are some very personal comments that you must have witnessed, yes or no?


Left angle....maybe you can answer
EXACTLY WHEN DID YOU MEET MS. CLINTON and experience her viciousness and vile humanity?.

momma: what?
youre confused...inkling revivival made the comment that he encountered sen. Clinton, not me..lol

Excuses, Excuses
It is the Screw Up Effect. The pollsters are meticulously looking for an excuse for their inadequacies because they need to keep the money for polling flowing into their coffers. The problem was in the randomness of the selected participants and in the questions being asked. Questions could be crafted to preclude the "so called" Bradley Effect, in fact proper questions could test for the Bradley Effect and even measure it.

I think this qualifies
"experience her viciousness and vile humanity?.."

Firing the entire travel office so she could hire her white trash friends from Arkansas with the words "fire their axxes," having WH security walk in and hand them boxes to pack up their personal belongings as they watched them like they were criminals and then hustle them out of the WH and dump them out on the elipse qualifies as vicious and vile.


Candidates
what difference does it make? Any Dem or Rino Pelosi McCain or Huckabee who hired the Pres of the CFR all want amnesty. Not because they want to be humane as Pelosi McCain said but because they want the Mexican vote. They are against wanting proper ID at he polls because they want the illegals vote. And they aren't so humane that they have worried about the illegals being exploited for slaves wages all these years. Pelosi McCains humaneness is as phony as Hillary's tears. She discussed crying just the day before on a talk show.
And when they get their amnesty, no other issues will matter. It will prove to them that after 85% of Americans voting against amnesty, and they still push it, they don't have to listen to anything we say.
A Vote for them is a vote for the North American Union and America being a third world country. Even if they started to seal our borders today,
it would be years before enough would be done to be effective. And at the rate they come across our border and the rate they have babies, there won't be an America. They have no intention of sealing our borders. Right now Texans are fighting to keep the government from taking their land by imminent domain, to build the super highway from Mexico to Canada. So why would anyone believe they are going to build a fence?

Candidates
what difference does it make? Any Dem or Rino Pelosi McCain or Huckabee who hired the Pres of the CFR all want amnesty. Not because they want to be humane as Pelosi McCain said but because they want the Mexican vote. They are against wanting proper ID at he polls because they want the illegals vote. And they aren't so humane that they have worried about the illegals being exploited for slaves wages all these years. Pelosi McCains humaneness is as phony as Hillary's tears. She discussed crying just the day before on a talk show.
And when they get their amnesty, no other issues will matter. It will prove to them that after 85% of Americans voting against amnesty, and they still push it, they don't have to listen to anything we say.
A Vote for them is a vote for the North American Union and America being a third world country. Even if they started to seal our borders today,
it would be years before enough would be done to be effective. And at the rate they come across our border and the rate they have babies, there won't be an America. They have no intention of sealing our borders. Right now Texans are fighting to keep the government from taking their land by imminent domain, to build the super highway from Mexico to Canada. So why would anyone believe they are going to build a fence?

Racial Concerns
Obama is 50/50 in his racial composition. It is his choice to protect the Democrat Party by pandering to the African-American base by labeling himself as one of them. He could just as easily have labeled himself as mixed and that may have ameliorated the Bradley Effect and given him New Hampshire(if you subscribe to the Bradley Effect). It looks like Jim Crow is still a Democrat and he is a young, Black, Illini now trailing Hillary because of the Bradley Effect. In the words of Merle Haggard, "I take a lot of pride in what I am"; except at election time.

Racial Concerns
Obama is 50/50 in his racial composition. It is his choice to protect the Democrat Party by pandering to the African-American base by labeling himself as one of them. He could just as easily have labeled himself as mixed and that may have ameliorated the Bradley Effect and given him New Hampshire(if you subscribe to the Bradley Effect). It looks like Jim Crow is still a Democrat and he is a young, Black, Illini now trailing Hillary because of the Bradley Effect. In the words of Merle Haggard, "I take a lot of pride in what I am"; except at election time.

Akagi:serve at the pleasure of the prez?
er, white trash friends? I dont think they would discribe themselves that way, at any rate,
I see no difference than what bush did to U.S.
Attorneys? do you?

A few things
There is no NAU, there is no NAFTA highway.

There is nothing known as the Third World--in case you missed it, the Second World vanished in say 1991 or there abouts.

The term used today is LDC or LEDC (Less Developed Country or Less Economically Developed Country) and as a whole known as the Developing World. But even using the old term of Third World, Mexico wouldn't qualify. It is a NIC (Newly Industralized Country) just as Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore and HK were in the 1970s. Other new NICS: China, India, Brazil, the Philippines, South Africa, Malaysia.




White trash
Yes I do.

Travel Office staff works from administration to administration. Some of the travel office staff had been there for decades. US Attorneys do not. Your pal Clinton, the current presidental candidate's so-called husband fired every US attorney in the nation when he came into office.


One more thing
Bush didn't have security bust into their offices, hand them boxes and under their supervision watch them pack up their stuff and then haul them into a van and dump them on the side of the road. But class is not exactly the Clinton's strong suit.


akagi: so you hate hillary clinton?
big deal....get over it...where you there when it happened? if not youre just repeating hearsay.
the bottom line is: "serves at the pleasure of the president." GAO stated on travel office employees. remember that.

Travelgate?

more bs repub/con conspiracy theories.

answer these questions:

did hillary do the actual firings?
was she charged with any illegalities?
was there corruption in the travel office?

Questions questions!
So the commiequeers get to vote for Hitlery and be Racists or Barak Osama and be sexist. Or vote for the Breck Guy and be both! Delicious!
Commiequeerdom taken to its logical conclusion.

As for The Dragon Lady. I got some questions of
my own.
Who hid the Rose Law Firm Billing Records? Who
hired Craig Livingston? Who chose which FBI files to get illegally? Who read them? Who made copies? What did Hilly take from Vince Foster's office? What did poor Vince mean by his note "No one will believe the Clinton's or their loyal staff." What classified documents did Sandy Burgler stuff in his underware?
Where's Charlie Tree, or whoever those gunrunning dope selling, Red Chinese Army Bagmen were? Is Hillary a screamer? What's Slick doing for ynookie? And does Hilly STILL believe Monica was an agent of "a vast right wing conspiracy"?[I've always LOVED that Hitlery dilemma--the "smartest woman in America" is either dumber than Trailer Trash or a lying, cold blooded reptile!]
And just for the hell of it answer THIS question that may or may not have something to do with Hilly.. Where is Lucy Ramirez?

big mick

Left Angle doesn't believe in reading
I wrote earlier, and will say again as many times as I'm permitted, that Hillary Clinton is arguably one of the worst human beings ever to arrive on the American political scene.

Left Angles too-silly-to-be-believed response to that is "Have you met her?"

No, LA, I have not met her. I've read three books, hundreds of articles, dozens of blogs that have researched her actions at great length, examined her testimony before committees, read expose's written by men and women who worked with Ms. Clinton and for her, watched her on the national stage... but, hey, I guess you're right, we have no way of knowing what she's like.

Fool.

There's a point to reading, LA. It's for the purpose of learning, making assessments, and taking action. If you don't want to use the vast public information resources available to Americans for free, that's your decision, and you're entitled to it. For my part, I'm interested, I take my citizenship seriously, and I'm going to read, learn, and participate.

But do us all a favor, will you, LA? If you're not willing to read and learn, STAY THE F**K HOME FROM THE POLLS ON ELECTION DAY. 'Cause you're not going to make choices based on anything but your uninformed feelings, and you're going to dilute the votes of somebody who actually cares enough about the Republic to get a f**king education.

Travel office
LA picks one of the SMALLER of Ms. Clinton's misdoings, the Travel Office firings, and asks questions. So, let me answer:

1) did hillary do the actual firings?

No, but she's fairly well known for avoiding having her name on things. It's very well established that the firings were by her command.

2) was she charged with any illegalities?

No. But it's not the illegality that concerns us here; it's the use of the FBI to destroy the reputations of innocent, private citizens. Are you comfortable with a White House that believes law enforcement is there for its own personal gratification? No decent citizen should be.

3) was there corruption in the travel office?

No. She drummed that up to cover nepotism.

The real irony of the Travel Office firings was that mere nepotism would have been shrugged off as "politics as usual." They fire the travel office, they hire their relatives, nobody says a word. But no -- they had to falsely accuse an innocent man of malfeasance, who had been doing his job satisfactorily for 35 years. That's not just vicious, that's abuse of power of the sort that justifies impeachment.

In my humble opinion, Bill Clinton should have been impeached by the 3rd year of his first term, and the Travel Office firings, which were mostly Hillary Clinton's doing, are part of the reason why.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

Inkling. Well said.
.

Inkling..
Ditto, on MotleyCrue's comment... Hillary is just plain evil.

left angle? left angle...? LEFTANGLE!!!
guess she left the building,

and just when the questions were getting good.

Well "cut and run" is a usual commiequeer strategy.

mick

Something no one mentioned
Neither the article itself, nor any of the postes of comments, nor the MSM have mentioned the most likely reason Clinton won in NH. Since Democratic Party rules basically allowed ANYONE from ANYWHERE to register and vote in New Hampshire at the same time, does no one remember that Clinton had 200,000 workers on her campaign in Iowa and that those workers transferred to NH? What was her margin of victory?

the evil hitlery
I'd love to know if the Secret Service has her on their list of potential enemies to Slick!

Only Kennedy shtick she ain't done is "Widow Grieving over Fallen Hero". If I was Slick, I'd Fort Up in Gitmo or someplace long about the Middle of October. This Spring if Obama gets a lead.

the big mick

One Day.....
One day people will stop speculating over race like it's the end all be all of human existence. Pseudo-intellectual babble such as "The Bradley Effect" and the like perpetuate the ideals of race relations. How about some Human Relations for a change? It's time to stop basing everything on race whenever something unexpected happens!

"Bradley Effect" or bad Sample?
In my opinion, the so called Bradley effect is probably best described as an excuse for poor sampling. I find it hard to believe that people are that embarrased to admit that they are voting for a non-black candidate. Most polls are anonymous and the questions relating to choice of candidates usually involve selecting among a list of more than 2 candidates (in a primary). I think what is more likely is that certain candidates' supprters have overstated their propensity to vote/particpate and the pollsters haven't adjusted their sample to account for this. As regards Bradley and Wilder specifically, I lived in both Virginia and later in Los Angeles and I remember both politicians. They were both elected several times by the populace in their respective areas, and only after establishing a long history of annoying policy decisions did they finally lose elections. People were tired of both of them by the time they left the scene.

Bradley Effect
I must say that it is a same that excuses need to be made when things do not turn out the way expected. This election year is difficult, why complicate even more. Hillary showing a sensative side and all the sexist talk. She is a women and familar with politics, like it or not. Obama's victory speech after Iowa almost made me want to puke. I don't want a southern sounding preacher, like Oprah turns on the southern for the blacks. I want someone clear speaking that sounds like a leader. I am a southerner. How fake they are!!!!After reading Obama's history, I could not believe this stuff. Does he know what he is? We need to focus on the great USA. Folks better do research and get this right.

polls
it's simple
the pollsters didn't/couldn't count the bus loads of people that hilly brought in to N.H.
ciao,
Harvey
Lancaster, Mexifornia
DIAL 1 FOR ENGLISH

New Hampshire Punditry

Lax voter registration rules in NH
I'm willing to bet that tons of "new" voters came from Massachusetts, NY, VT, and Maine to help Hillary in her "comeback". I'm willing to bet that they voted MORE than once in different locations in the Granite State.

Off the Mark
Hawkins could not be more wrong! He and the media in general are trying their best to interject race into the NH primary outcome. Nothing could be further from the fact. After having talked with dozens of people here in NH during the days leading up to and on the day of the Primary in NH, it was pretty obvious they were taken with the excitement surrounding Obama and were considering voting for him. Even on voting day, many were seriously considering him as they entered the precinct to vote. But here in NH people take their voting pretty seriously and when push came to shove and they had to make their choice, they simply didn't think he was quite ready to be President and they voted for Hillary. Keep in mind even with her strong organization in NH, and she has one composed of talented people, she didn't win by a landslide.

Grow up folks,it's 2008 - everyone in NH doesn't predicate their every decision on race - sometimes it's depends on things such as maturity, judgement, experience, etc.


Occam's Razor Trumps Bradley
Gerry writes:
"Lax voter registration rules in NH
I'm willing to bet that tons of "new" voters came from Massachusetts, NY, VT, and Maine to help Hillary in her "comeback". I'm willing to bet that they voted MORE than once in different locations in the Granite State."

According to Occam's Razor paradigm, the simplest explanation is the best. I have seen no story refuting Gerry's explanation. I believe that is what happened: Hillary's organization bussed in hundreds of people.

One flaw in the argument
I admit there is no easy explanation for the discrepancy between what pre-election polls predicted and what actually happened. But what most people have overlooked is the fact that Obama received the number of votes that pre-election polls predicted he would rceeive, as I explain here:

http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com/2008/01/pre-election-po lls-in-new-hampshire.html

In fact, every candiate on the Republican side AND the Democratic side received about what they were supposed to receive EXCEPT Hillary (who received much more than predicted).

Should Obama have received the predicted number of votes if the Bradley effect were in play? It seems to me that the Bradley effect would be evident if, say, 40% said they'd vote for him but only 30% actually did. But that's not what happened. Instead, 36.7% said they'd vote for him and 36% did.

There is no satisfying explanation, but whatever explanation you advance, you need to also explain how everyone except Hillary received the predicted number of votes. To me, the simplest (but admittedly unsatisfying) explanation is that undecided voters broke for her in large numbers (even though exit polls did not pick up on this phenomenon).

RIGHT WING NUTS UNITE
>RebelHawk writes: Friday 2:17 PM
>The Bradley Effect
>Put aside the name calling and the emotional
>ranting and raving and just answer this one
>question


This is the NUMBER ONE RIGHT WING Republican dirty trick of all time, COME UP WITH SOME UNSUPPORTED hair brain conspiracies. Everyone against the Clinton's has shown to be with out merit and dubious.

First SHE BUSED PEOPLE IN FROM OUT OF STATE.

Now it's voter fraud with electronic machines, with Republican poll watchers sitting there.

GIVE ME A BREAK, WAKE UP, Hillary Clinton is a REAL candidate and worthy of consideration for President, despite the obvious down side you call being a WOMAN and Democrat.

Right WING WACKOS UNITE WITH YOUR IDIOTIC BULL THEORIES.

ANY PROOF? ANY? We know Bush stole the 2000 election. We know Bush Co had US attorneys fired for political reasons.

Paranoia is a sign of mental illness. You relize Clinton is still top Poll runner in national polls. You know NH voters told the Pundits to F off becuase they where crowing Obama.

Engram
A possible explanation for the faulty exit poll numbers could be that HRC supporters -older women in particular- are less enthusiastic about disclosing their vote and disinclined to participate in an exit poll compared to BO supporters. This has been
seen before in exit polls, and could be true in this instance.
I agree with you that the pre vs. post election numbers do not support an argument that the Bradley Effect was at play.

Jerseyvet and Gerry
Hoist by your own petard.

wait
jetpilot, the fact that senator clnton is a woman should have no bearing on her qualifications for the office of president..has anyone mentioned her gender as a reason to exclude her or not take her seriously? I think this is early in the process and the american people have an enormous amount of time to put all the potential candidates through the paces to discern whether they would ultimately want to give them their vote for the presidency. I also think that, these days, there are far more americans who are independents and this may be the first presidential election where more people are without party affiliation or worse where they do have a party affiliation and do not vote according to that party but independently. I think we are in for a fascinating experience that will go down in the history books.
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