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Friday, November 02, 2007
John Hawkins :: Townhall.com Columnist
Keep Religion In, Not Out Of, Politics
by John Hawkins
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"A general dissolution of the principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous, they cannot be subdued, but...once they lose their virtue, they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader." -- Samuel Adams

In recent years, there has been a concerted effort to drive God from the public square and his followers from the political process. Oh, don't get me wrong, Christians are still welcome to mouth politically correct platitudes and vote for whoever says a few nice words about Jesus, but if we actually support policies and candidates based on our religious beliefs, the anti-Christian secularists start tut-tutting and slinging cliches.

We're told that you can't legislate morality. Newsflash: almost all of our laws are based on morality. Better that it be Christian morality than secular morality.

We're told that we have "separation of church and state." However, that phrase, which was torn out of the context in which it was used by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists, has been regularly used as a slight-of-hand to deny Christians the religious freedoms we are guaranteed under the First Amendment.

We are told that we need to keep God out of politics. Unfortunately, whether Christians are interested in politics or not, politicians are interested in us. They're interested in denying Christians our First Amendment rights, preventing Christmas songs from being sung in school, and they're interested in codifying practices no Christian should support, like abortion, gay marriage, and using public schools to promote deviant sexual and moral practices to our children.

Put another way, Christians may want to stay out of politics, but politics isn't going to stay out of the domain of the church. Since that's the case, we need more Christians involved in politics, not less.

Of course, that doesn't mean we're all going to agree. In fact, even amongst conservative Christians, it sometimes seems as if the only thing that two Christians can agree on is that the third Christian is wrong about something.

Then, when you start putting liberal Christians into the mix with conservative Christians -- well, don't even get me started. It's hard to believe that people who share the same faith can have so many wide-ranging political differences on even the most basic of issues.

Yet and still, both political parties and the country as a whole are better off to have Christians, particularly Christians who take their faith seriously, participating in the process and letting their faith help guide their decisions.

Granted, social conservatives can come across as a little too preachy and the whole "we're going to form a third party if we don't get the candidate we want” approach that some advocate is completely counter productive, but there would have never been a Reagan Revolution without the Christian Right. Furthermore, given all the complaints we hear about our culture as is, imagine what a moral sewer this country would have degenerated into without conservative Christendom rising up to stand for what's right.

In the Democratic Party, Christians have much less sway, but their civilizing influence has helped keep the radical atheists from running the party and staging an even larger attack on Christianity, tradition, and the moral foundation of our country. That being said, it would be great if more liberal Christians had the moral courage to stand up to their fellow travelers on the Left on the frequent occasions when they mock people who are serious about Christianity.

Naturally, not everyone would be pleased to see a larger, more forceful Christian contingent entering politics. But, those who argue that Christians have a negative impact on our political process because they tend to be "overly concerned" with morals or family values are engaging in an act of hypocrisy.

Just as the people who attack our troops as being thugs and mercenaries are only capable of doing so because of the blanket of protection provided by the very soldiers they attack, people who sneer at Christians are only capable of doing so because of the Christian ethics and morality that have permeated American culture since the time of the Founders.

America has been and continues to be a great nation because we are a good nation that is populated in large part by a fundamentally decent, Christian people. If Christians step back and allow the bastion of freedom, decency, and opportunity that this nation represents to be squandered, God may forgive us, because that's what He does -- but something precious, a birthright that should belong to future generations of Americans, will be lost from the world.

Last, but not least, if you take one thing away from this column it should be this: if those of us who believe in the Lord simply shrug our shoulders and abandon politics to the secularists, then we should not be surprised when our government pursues secularist policies and imposes upon us laws that contradict our most cherished beliefs.

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John Hawkins is a professional blogger who runs Right Wing News, Linkiest, and Viral Footage.
 
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what is surprising to me
as a liberal Christian is how many conservative atheists i run across here on townhall.

i hate to admit it but i generally agree with hawkins on this one although his back handed compliments of the liberal Christians is a little insulting.

i mean conservative Christians support capital punishment, torture and pre-emptive war which i feel is immoral and goes again the teachings of Jesus Christ.

i am pro-life as most liberal Christians are.

well that should spark some debate and start the ball rolling.


Keep Religion In
I don't have a problem with people praying at a football game or graduation. I don't have a problem with having a cross on public property. I don't have a problem with christians renning for office or voting.

I do have a problem with the extereme factions who want to censor what I am reading or invade my bedroom. Anyone who is busy trying to track who I sm dating or how far we go behind closed doors I have a big problem with. I would rather support some of the ACLU's absurdness then having a policeman tell me what I can read or when I can sleep with a signifacant other. When it looks like someone wants to go there it alienates the moderates.

Huh?
Hawkins writes:

...Politics isn't going to stay out of the domain of the church...

Huh. Since when is what the public schools talk about the "domain of the church"? If it is the "domain" of any chuch, which church shall it be?

Since when is the granting of a CIVIL marriage license the "Domain of the Church"?

My church is ALL FOR GAY MARRIAGE, but the damn politicians in my conservative state tell my church that any gay marriages they perform are not legally valid. Those damn Christian politicians are infringing on the "domain of MY church". Where's Hawkins pitty for me and MY church?

Oh...I see. Hawkins as an Xian fundie doesn't want anything said, at least not anything positive or even value neutral said about gays in the public schools. Unfortunately, he fails to realize that his kid may very well be sitting next to the child of the lesbian couple who lives down the street from him.

Are they not tax payers? Are they not equal citizens? Does THEIR child not have a right to see and hear positive things about their family?

Oh...I see. What's fair is fair as long as Christianity is put on a pedastal and given favored treatment.

POLITICS & RELIGION
we must keep these two issues apart. it is sad
that we must. but, with people, the scum of the
earth, it starts innocent and leads to putting
the Jew in the oven.....................

Question
Why would we possibly think it's up to us either to keep God in or out of politics? If God is omnipotent and omnipresent, He will be there anyway.

How about
a simple agenda for Gov't, Provide National Security and Domestic tranquility, and leave religion to the churches.

No, not that, its too simple, let's make things as confusing as possible. Throw as much into the mix as possible.

The frightening thing is most people look to the Gov't as thier church.

And Hawkins' Point Is?
"We're told that you can't legislate morality. Newsflash: almost all of our laws are based on morality. Better that it be Christian morality than secular morality."

Morality is found in choosing to act good and bad toward others. How can you coerce that?

Distinguishing different kinds of morality is moral relativism. Morals are universal, absolute, immutable.

"...it sometimes seems as if the only thing that two Christians can agree on is that the third Christian is wrong about something.... It's hard to believe that people who share the same faith can have so many wide-ranging political differences on even the most basic of issues."

Faith is a personal matter so it's not hard to believe at all. Just look at the history of Christianity, from catholic roots to Protestant individualism. It's the two wolves agreeing the one sheep about lunch is wrong that's hard to believe.*


*Franklin: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."

Money is republicans religion
Republicans worship money and use religion to control others. Its that simple.

Diversity
Well we have a lot of that here. I thought it was an excellent column. It is easy to see why those who call themselves "Christian" are all over the road on so many issues.

Truth is, Christianity has nothing to do with morality. Christianity says we are all evil, our self-righteousness is as filthy rags - which is why we need a Savior.

That being said, once we come to Christ, now it is important to live the way it is outlined in His word to live. As Jesus said, why do you call me Lord and then don't do the things I tell you?

Take the gay issue. We all know what the bible says about homosexuality. We also know the many health issues that arise from the practice of homosexuality. This is not a contemporary moral issue. Homosexuality has been going on for centuries. The bible says they have been given over to their perverions, and it is an abomination before God. Sorry, but those are the facts.

Now, as a believer, you have two choices. Accept what His word says and be obedient to it. Or ignore it, deny it, twist it, to fit into your social agenda. When you deny what the word says, you deny Jesus. And when you deny Jesus, you have to ask yourself if you're truly a Christian.

What's interesting, is those who push for the right of a mother to slaughter their baby, are the same ones who fight for a convicted serial killer to keep his life.

No I am NOT pro-capital punishment. I do not believe God gives us the right to legally kill ANY human being. We are living in a time of grace. Be it serial killer or innocent baby.

Point is, just because someone calls themselves a Christian, does not make them one. If you don't know Him, He doesn't know you. If you don't follow the things He has said, He really isn't your Lord.

Evil flourishes if good men do nothing
When amoral godless people are in charge of government, right and wrong become flexible notions that can change with the tide. Today it's wrong to murder old people, but tomorrow they're an inconvenience to society that we must kill. Without an actual touchstone for morality (God), morality is whatever floats your boat this week and the tide can turn as need be.

If Christians abdicate their God-given rights and responsibilities to participate in the American experiment, then evil flourishes because we have failed to do anything to stop it. I am not claiming that Christians are perfect or that those claiming to be Christians have always acted in wholly moral ways. However, Bible believing Christians are fettered in their behavior by what the Bible teaches concerning how Christians should live.

Some may not like that we think homosexual behavior is a sin, but then we don't think it's right that people murder unborn babies. They think we're bigots; we think they're murderers. Hmm, might be a good thing for them that all sins are equal in God's eyes.

The flip side is -- morality flourishes if good men do what God wills. Think early Christianity flourishing because people saw the joy they possessed in the faith that Rome wanted to kill them for.

I'm not saying to abdicate politics -- that would be good men doing nothing. But I am saying we should be more concerned with spreading the gospel than spreading the welfare or running for office. Free food and political power do not change hearts. Only Jesus can do that and when good people tell the world about Jesus -- well, miracles happen. They have and they will!

Stop the Catholic Bashing
As a Catholic and ex-Protestant, I resent the implied slant against my beliefs. Yes, as a Catholic, I support human rights over oil, and peace
over war. How can the untruth squad keep up the facade of calling themselves Christians. They bare
no resemblance to our Lord and Savior. Read the whole Bible Mr. Hawkins, you may be shocked that the
peace makers are the ones that are blessed.

Here is why religion in politics is BAD
In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind . . . The only sects which he (Locke) thinks ought to be and which by all wise laws are excluded from such toleration are those who teach doctrines subversive of the civil government under which they live. The Roman Catholics or Papists are excluded by reason of such doctrines as these: that princes excommunicated may be deposed, and those they call heretics may be destroyed without mercy; besides their recognizing the pope in so absolute a manner, in subversion of government, by introducing as far as possible into the states under whose protection they enjoy life, liberty, and property that solecism in politics, imperium in imperio, leading directly to the worst anarchy and confusion, civil discord, war and bloodshed.


Samuel Adams (1722 - 1803)
Source: The Rights of the Colonists, 1772.

crumbisdumb
Democrats love power and use the troops, any minority as pawns to push their agenda. It's that simple!

Mr. Hawkins
This article suffers form terminal intellectual infantilism.

Here is a list of examples:
You say, "Newsflash: almost all of our laws are based on morality." This view is childish. Very few laws have a moral foundation. Genuine laws are fundamentally practical, one may intuit them, hence the phrase "ignorance is not excuse." The rest of what passes for law these days is really regulation, and I defy anyone to find a moral basis in that pile of rubbish.
You refer to the "separation of church and state" concept. It's true those exact words do not appear in any of the documents used to found this great nation, but that truth is irrelevant. The phrase is just a convenient shorthand for the ideas that are expressed in those documents.
You further declare, "Yet and still, both political parties and the country as a whole are better off to have Christians, particularly Christians who take their faith seriously, participating in the process and letting their faith help guide their decisions." Political parties are better off with people who understand and support our republican form of government. The country is better off with politicians who respect The Constitution. We are all better off with voters who respect the rights and freedoms of individuals. There is no religious, racial, generational, or gender test to separate Americans that believe in the ideals that built this nation, from those that do not believe. Mr. Hawkins, your views, as expressed in this article, are similar to those I would expect from an indoctrinated twelve year old.

The few statements listed above do not exhaust the examples of intellectual immaturity demonstrated throughout your article Mr. Hawkins. Could I persuade you to suspend your writing career until you grow up a little?

It would be welcome
if those who claim authority about Christianity or Judiasm, for that matter, to use the Bible as an authority a little. Otherwise it is your opinion or the opinion of someone you hold in place of the Bible.


Robert writes: 02, 2007 12:23 AM

If God does punish...nations then he should send the far right to hell for their support of the Iraq war.

religiouslib writes: 02, 2007 12:25 AM

..conservative Christians support capital punishment, torture and pre-emptive war which i feel is immoral and goes again the teachings of Jesus Christ.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Show me where capital punishment, water boarding, and pre-emptive war goes against teachings of Christ.

I notice selective indignation day after day by you two. I didn’t notice you doing this when Klinton was bombing Iraq, bombing in Yugoslavia, etc. Me thinks this is party MoveOn.org talking points not personal beliefs.

Throughout the world there has been the acceptance of the works of St. Augustine & Aquinas called “Just War”. This concept is in our international treaties and gave rise to UN forces. Iraq clearly met the “Just War” criteria.

I think preemptive war became an evil concept when Israel preemptively stopped the Arab invasion in ’67. Not that preemptive is universally rejected, but only if it is not done by Communist forces. Now that China is going to preempt the Tibetan unarmed Monks, I don’t see you two complaining day after day. Oh yea, China is a fellow MoveOn.org country that has been huge campaign supporter for Billary Klintons.

You both are very transparent.

I didn’t vote for Bush either time nor support the war, but I don’t work for MoveOn.org so I guess I’m a tad more objective. Anyway say hi to everybody at MoveOn.org when you get to work this morning.

Fighting Back
Good word Aurorawatcher!

Certainly in this day and age as we see our public schools erode the authority of the parent and our universities brainwash our college kids.
Where we see homosexuality, profanity, sexuality thrust on our pre-teens. Where we see unrestained judical activism overriding the will of the people. Where we see schools provide our youngest girl with abortions unbeknownst to the parents. Where we see ACLU judges strip towns of their right to display that which represents their heritage. Where we see the ACLU use legal terrorism to cause towns to bow their knees and then collect money from the same people they sued. Where we see such slanted, biased reporting by supposed ethical news media. Where we see films and music that glorify debasement and the worst of humanity as normal.

The good must stand up and be counted. For the sake of our children, the sake of our society, and this country.

WHY WE HAVE GOD'S RULES
The vast majority of the post I see on this site against religion in general and Christians in particular has one theme that of "ME". It's always been in mans nature to want to be a god, and to do exactly as he wishes. Trouble is God gave us the rules because of his love for his children. He knows exactly whats best for us in the food we eat, in marriage, in rearing childing, and in our life style. Sure you can get fat, abuse alcohol, have 3 wives (husbands) murder your unborn child, abuse drugs, engage in preverted sex, lie, steal, and worship false gods, He wont stop you or me. But we will most likly be very unhealthy, very derpessed, very unhappy and die young. Its called rebellion. We witnessed a good example of rebellion in the 1960s when people like Bill and Hillary worshiped at the temple of Woodstock. The reason our nation was founded using the leadership of the Holy Bible is our founders knew the laws there-in set the stage for a more perfect union. "We hold these truths to be self evident that all men were created equal, and are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, amoung those are life, liberity and the persuit of happyness" Also Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or "PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF" or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press etc.. Just who do you think is the creator they speak of. And if we are to have the free exercise of religion why do we even discuss laws that take freedom of speech away like a hate crimes bill, or the fairness doctrine, or why do we push to remove God,s name from public places,(Washington Monument) and why are Christians, who stand for love and peace, under such attack today? Because its all about "ME" and the desire to be god and rule in our own way. Ron G

Part 2
Social conservatism was born out of the attacks on this country over the previous decades that sought to strip us of our freedoms, our rights, and our family values.

Our goal is not to force our beliefs down the throats of U.S. citizens but to regain that which has been stolen from us, by the Democrats, the educators, the entertainment industry, and the liberal judges.

The right to freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To exercise our freedom of religion, without persecution, without redress, and without prejudice. The right to raise our children as we see fit.

The right for my child it live in safety, and not be worried about the boy down the street that has been exposed to explicit sexual content, profanity, and lawless rap music all his life, designed to degrade my daughter.

While I do my best to shield and protect my daughter from the trash that flows across the airwaves, the internet, and in her own library. I can do nothing about the boy that has been raised on this crap. It is that boy who will accost my daughter, verbally, physically, socially and emotionally. Why? Because society as a whole allowed that boy to be inundated by this crap. Prepped and prepared to victimize, because society allowed him to view my daughter as a ho, a b**ch, a tramp.

Don't tell me to quite forcing my morality down society's throat. Truth is, society has been force feeding their crap down our throats for too long. Who will stand in the gap for the children?

It's time for good men to stand up and rise to the ocassion.

The log in their eyes
What amazes me is the staunch chrisitian position that their god is the only source of morality.

My deduction from that is that Alan Place and the horde of catholic preists like him, Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Lonnie Latham, Gary Aldridge, Paul Barnes, Coy Privett, Jim Baker, Monica Goodling, Dave Vitter, and Richard Roberts never got that memo.

Once the Religious Reich begins to actually live up to their fairy tale religion, thay might have a soap box to stand on. And that's just for license to promote their religion. My list didn't include the liars of the RR promoting revisionist history claiming America is a Christian nation.

James Madison, who was a founder of this country far more than Sam Adams, stated in "Remonstrances" that there is no historical evidence that religion allied with government has ever been a protector of the peoples liberties.

Hawkins is just a shill for an issue that is laughable at best.

Narrow-minded parochialism
The author needs to spend some time in college learning before writing next time.

Reading about fundamentals of the American political system could help as well.

First Define, then make the call!
__Oh My, Oh My, keep religion out of politics, cry the religious! Those bound by principles that do not recognize, nor proclaim faith, in God. For those of this embrace, "remove the plank from your eye."! While the word, religion, has developed to reference a congregation bound in faith of the spiritual, it is actually a reference to those bound by the principles that guide their life. Seculars are of a religion, a congregation bound by their own scheme of politics, of life, and the laws which direct it. ITS A RELIGION, and the congregation bound by it seek to apply its singular, binding, principles on the various congregations bound by opposing principles. Undermining the definition of our Constitution, and the principles of its design. A design recognizing the need, to have in place controls on religion. Controls that limited the abilities of one religious congregation overpowering, and limiting the bindings of others, or expression of those bindings. The religion of the left, and the singular principles of that religion, deny it is a religion. It's how they are bound, it is therefore the definition of religion, and needs to remain seperate from controling this Republics government.

Writing with a log
Gonzo, James Madison was coming from the viewpoint of what politics in Britain were like. Ever since Christianity was infused with the Roman government, Christianity was stifled. The two were never meant to be bedfellows. EVER!

The Pilgrims fled persecution from the church of England. The Pilgrims were strong Christians. This is what Madison and Jefferson was talking about! There has never been, in the history of the United States, a state religion, as such was practiced in Britain.

Nevertheless, this country was founded by Christians on the basis of Judeo-Christian beliefs. Read the words of the Star Spangled Banner. Jefferson included bible study as part of college curriculum. Read some of Washington's papers. Christopher Columbus based his theory that the world was round from scripture. He wrote in his journal that he was led by the Holy Spirit to make the quest.

History is repleat with men of faith who played pivotal roles in the birth of this country as well as the writing of the Constitution.

You are always going to find those who have fallen in their morality. Failed to lead by example. Which does nothing but lead back to the original truth, we all need a Savior, cause we are all morally bankrupt. So your Ted Haggert assertions just reinforces the need for Christian faith in our lives.

budbud writes: 02, 2007 4:30 AM
Since when is what the public schools talk about the "domain of the church"? If it is the "domain" of any chuch, which church shall it be?

Since when is the granting of a CIVIL marriage license the "Domain of the Church"?

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

His point is that the Fed giver-ment has taken it upon itself to legislate morality. Therefore everybody must try to have their morality legislated.

budbud writes:

My church is ALL FOR GAY MARRIAGE, but the damn politicians in my conservative state tell my church that any gay marriages they perform are not legally valid. Those damn Christian politicians are infringing on the "domain of MY church". Where's Hawkins pitty for me and MY church?

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Church “all for gay marriage”? Sounds like Bush’s past church in Dallas. What do they use in place of the Bible or do they use private interpretation?

Anyway, civil giver-ments have adopted natural law, that later became common law, that became statute or code and the religion, if any, of the present politicians has little to do with that process that has gone on for over 2000 years.

Your church does not have unlimited domain as set forth in Reynolds V US. In response 5 of the opinion it sets forth the giver-ment limits on religious Freedom as explained by Madison & Jefferson.

budbud writes: 02, 2007 4:30 AM

Oh...I see. Hawkins as an Xian fundie doesn't want anything said, at least not anything positive or even value neutral said about gays in the public schools. Unfortunately, he fails to realize that his kid may very well be sitting next to the child of the lesbian couple who lives down the street from him.

DESKJOCKEY WRITE

Many folks Christian and otherwise believe education is not a function of federal giver-ment. Others believe it should not be the function of state giver-ment either. However, that skul has now become a religious institution recruiting for Analtheism rather than teaching the 3 R’s is total perversion.

budbud writes:

Are they not tax payers? Are they not equal citizens? Does THEIR child not have a right to see and hear positive things about their family? Oh...I see. What's fair is fair as long as Christianity is put on a pedastal and given favored treatment.


DESKJOCKEY WRITES

John Gotti paid taxes, but that didn’t let him use the skuls to indoctrinate and recruit thugs. Skuls have become gay recruiting missionary camps. How can you plead persecution with a straight face (pun). Christianity is banned from skuls certainly they have a right to request a quid pro quo ban on Analtheism.

Torture
When 50 of our nations brightest kids go to the president and beg him not to endorse torture, he denied them. This torture business is going to do untold moral damage to our children and society at large.

Render unto Caesar
If you boycott Republicans or start a third party movement, you get Democrats like in 1992 and 1996.

MY POINT is, you don't have to compromise your personal sense of moraliy and tenants of your religon...But you need to render unto Caesar with some compromise in perfection. Because my friend, we cannot go the way of Shira Law. We are a country of men...with personal beliefs that must be integrated for the sake of governing.

You don't get to choose your population, only your elected officials.

Col. Doug


Title is misleading
It should read,

"Keep Christian religion in, not out of politics."

And, of course, you mean only your interpretation of Christianity. I seriously doubt you would accept the Book of Mormon as a template for religion in politics.

lilly
God *IS* omnipotent and omnipresent, and He surely is there anyway.

And He displays this to us constantly. We simply choose to remain ignorant.

In California, an evil law passed and was signed into law that confers special privileges upon homosexual perverts. The ink was barely dry on Schwarzenegger's signature when the biggest firestorm in California broke out in Southern California, followed up by a moderate earthquake in northern California.

When Bill Clinton says that homos should be in the military and this results in the most massive flooding in American history and begins to subside only as he changes his mind, then this should be a lesson for this country. Historical note should be made of it and resolve given that no such further attempt to legitimize homos should be made.

Are these punishments from God? Of course not. PUNISHMENTS if and when they come will make these incidents look like momentary nuisances. These events are mere WARNINGS.

There should be a government department of religious scholars set up to monitor such warnings and examine and explain their implications for immoral actions that government has taken.

Voting
A vote for a Republican is a vote for torture, the most anti-Christain concept possible. Its that simple.

Absolutely agree
that religion should be kept in politics. Also feel that religious ideology should be debated in Congress, since that ideology is the basis of most congressmen's behavior.

I'd love to see a "sense of the senate" resolution which proclaimed that Leiberman and Romney are going to hell because they are not Christian." Roll call vote on that one.

The issues of whether the Bible is inspired by God and whether Jesus rose from the dead should also be debated in Congress, since these beliefs form the backbone of much legislation. Religion shouldn't be "off the table" in politics.

A Study in Scarlet
Pancho, all religions should work to understand the will of God as He expresses it through preternatural events such as the California warnings. In the end a sure reliance on that will furnish a guide to the truth, and let us know what to avoid in politics.


Patrick
Oh god...we're back to the buggery causing earthquakes and fires, instead of the "ignorant" belief that plate shifting and matches do. If that was true the Roman Catholic Church would spontaneously combust. Jesus apparently sure loves war, if you listen to the fringe evangelical groups. I heard Pastor Hagee the other day tell me that people talk about UFOs to cover up the Rapture. This is exactly why Neocons want religion in politics, because religion breeds ignorance, thus their LOYAL base, instead of actually pondering some hard questions about life they resort to fictional books, all based on fictional books of the past. Zeus, Jesus, Mithra, Muhammed, Horus etc. the list goes on. Imagine if millions and millions of people died over the "Cat in the Hat", how stupid would that seem?

I do believe in god but I absolutely hate when people think they have him all figured out. That is the biggest ignorance in and of itself and it is insulting to his essence.

And if you don't believe do what my screename says and do a little research about fact instead of fiction.

Patrick
Very astute commentary. God DOES provide warnings and we are in a "time of grace" as Michael Brown stated earlier.

God has continued His grace period and has given us one more warning with these two posts alone....

Irreligion
is for Nobodies.

yes and no
No Christian should have to back down or abandon their beliefs for anything including politics. Yet the reality of our system is that compromise is inevitable. That requires each individual to search their conscience for the best action. While there are some aspects of modern Christianity I find annoying or downright repulsive, it is my responsibility to offer full tolerance and wide latitude to its practice. All I ask is that I not be forced to participate in that practice. It is in that vein that any law or government action that is based solely on religious ideology must be rejected.

MikeR
I agree with what you said. I was more harsh, but if one wants to enter their relgion into the political fray, their religion is fair game, and open to reasonable criticism. Unfortunately for religion it doesn't stand up to reason.

GOOGLE "PRETERNATURAL" MR. STRAUSS
The error of secularists is that of false dichotomy. To secularists, the only available options are (1) science and (2) supernatural.

But there is a third, largely overlooked category. Events that are natural in manifestation (such as plate shifting) but have beyond-natural significance are preternatural.

For example, if the words "God is coming" suddenly appeared from nothing in the sky above us, that would be supernatural.

If a meteor swarm burned up in the atmosphere in such a manner as to spell out the words "God is coming" then that would be preternaturalm as there's a perfectly natural explanation for meteors - but not for the message.

Preternatural events occur all the time. Most people just aren't paying attention. For example, I was once driving down a city street while some moron in front of me starting driving too slow.

Good thing he did, too.

Within seconds, at the next stoplight, which was green for us, a speeding Mack truck loaded with gravel ran his red light. A large building prevented us from noticing the onrushing truck as it approached the intersection. Had the "moron" not slowed me down, I would have been in front of that Mack truck. I have witnessed many such occasions in my life, and I thank God for each one.

There are negative preternaturalisms as well - such as Stephen Hawking losing his voice after penning an atheistic diatribe. Even geniuses sometimes don't learn.

It's All Religion
__Faith in an omnipotent God, or faith in self, everyone religiously follows the principles that guide them. They follow those principles to secure the means in which to obtain property. Their possessions which allow them to prosper, and grow. It has always been two religions fighting head to head. While split into varying, and numerous, religions it is all religion. The principles which bind segments of societies together, for the reasons they see, will bring them the greatest prosperity. Certainly is amusing to watch those in ignorance, and those in Truth, fight it out. Expecially when you know who holds the winning hand! Any loss, that may occur, is only temporary for some, and permanent for others. It is great to have faith in the Winner, along with the power.

Gonzo-
Gonzo writes-"What amazes me is the staunch Chrisitian position that their God is the only source of morality."

agenT H- Sometimes the truth is very narrow.

News Media. Entertainment Industry. Politics. Churches. Corporations. States. Governments. Legal System. on and on and on right down to the family and the individual ("the boy down the street in Michael Brown's post). Everyone fits into a group somewhere.

Which group do you use for your source of morality?

The problem is that each group has their own moral compass with a broken needle. Nobody knows which direction is true "moral" north anymore. Some point slightly north west or north east. Some directly west or east. Then there are those that point directly south. Each one thinks their compass is pointing to true "moral" north.

When a group (or individual) becomes too powerful in their cultural setting. They can do what they want to the other groups (even kill them), just because they feel that other group doesn't follow their own "moral reality."
Their moral compass starts being used for directions. Are we to trust them that their compass is pointing us in the right direction? Look at our public shcools. Sex education to 1st graders. Eleven year old girls given birth control pills without parental consent or knowledge. Abortions to 14 year olds without parental knowledge or consent. On and on across the board (or log if you prefer.)

Christian government is not "limited"
Hawkins writes: "almost all of our laws are based on morality. Better that it be Christian morality than secular morality."

How about a government that does NEITHER?

How about a LIMITED government that confines itself to upholding the Constitution, and does NOT see itself as America's moral preacher, trying to mandate EITHER a secular moral view OR a Christian moral view on those with other moral codes?

Because that's what conservatism used to be all about--LIMITED Federal government--and limited government confines itself to its Constitutional duties.

Hawkins just demonstrated perfectly why the Christian evangelical right-wingers are NOT really traditional "conservatives," but something quite different. They are theocratic authoritarians, quite comfortable with a large, intrusive government so long as THEY are in charge of it and THEY can be the ones doing the intruding on others.

Thus they can oppose Roe v. Wade forcing abortion on THEM, while they insist on Federal marijuana bans and passage of a Federal Marriage Amendment which would ban same-sex marriage, even for liberal states and communities which might want to legalize marijuana or same-sex marriage. They can insist that the Federal Government refuse to support or work with NGOs abroad that support abortion, putting their pro-life views into the foreign policy of the world's only superpower.

This isn't "limited government." It isn't even particularly Christian, since you're relying on the force of a superpower's government rather than doing what evangelicals are supposed to do--spread the Word of the Gospel. It's naked power politics by a group interested in increasing its own political power.

People who believe
People who are so stupid to believe that "God" sends natural and human diasters to "teach us a lesson" are not much better than privative "savages" that thought volcanoes were gods or cut out human hearts to appease the sun god.

Can you please join the 21st century.

You know, I doubt there is a more Christian area than the south coast of Mississippi--you know, ground zero for Katrina. Oh, I know, it was those evil casinos that caused the hurricane.

Do the people that run the mental institution you are an inmate of know you are using the computer?


Just want to say
Thanks to those of you who are standing up and speaking up to support the Christian heritage and foundation of this country. I believe Christians (and by that term I mean the real ones, not just those who wear the label) have stood apathetically by for far too long while destructive elements in our society have been tearing down. Some on the left think they know what Christianity is but their knowledge is derived mainly from propaganda. They do not know the history of this country very well, and their knowledge of the Bible tends to be sketchy at best.

I have noticed that the ranting and raving seems to come mainly from the left side of the room. We need to love them and forgive them, but by no means are we supposed to just sit by and let them destroy the country our children will have to live in. My thoughts.

Akagi
Nurse Ratched is calling you.

Patrick
I understand that we do not fully understand causality, and that science is not finite, Jung wrote a good book on the topic, but you said that buggery causes earthquakes and fires. Prove it. Picking one event when many other instances of buggery go unpunished. Does God pick and choose what buggery he likes? For someone who is omnisicient and hates gays enough to kill many non gays in the process, probably even many evangelicals who theoretically agree with him as well, he seems very inconsistent. Why hasn't Europe been hit with your Gay Plagues?

Patrick
"Within seconds, at the next stoplight, which was green for us, a speeding Mack truck loaded with gravel ran his red light. A large building prevented us from noticing the onrushing truck as it approached the intersection. Had the "moron" not slowed me down, I would have been in front of that Mack truck. I have witnessed many such occasions in my life, and I thank God for each one."

Stuff like that has happened to me as well, many time. And it didn't require a bigoted view of a fictional book to achieve that. I do believe in a God, I don't know how much he can effect our lives and I don't pretend to.

Mel
Your theory really doesn't hold much water. Taking politicians as a whole, the Republicans have been just as hard on values Christians aspire to. The list of Republicans involved in sex crimes or criminal behavior is very, very long. George Bush was supposed to be a Christian president and now we have as a war strategy the making of people, often completely innocent like Arar, scream in pain and left mental zombies. Some of your Republicans do in deed take a "wide stance" when morals are involved. The next person to be president or senator of my state will be ethical and know right from wrong.

GOOGLE "CABARET", MR. STRAUSS
GOOGLE "LEO STRAUSS" writes:

"Why hasn't Europe been hit with your Gay Plagues?"

-

"Once all the Germans were WARLIKE and MEAN,
but that couldn't happen again;

"We taught them a lesson in 1918,
and they've hardly bothered us since then."

- Tom Lehrer

deskjockey

to support torture is to deny the life and example of Jesus Christ.



Because God is present in all of human life, God calls us to value every human life in the same
way God does. This means that the people of God are called to stand against all practices of
torture and all forms of cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment. This applies even when we
are worried about our own peace and security. It even applies to the treatment of our enemies.


Romans 12 is sometimes called the magna carta of the Christian life, the great charter of
Christian community and discipleship. It is a striking portrait of a way of life that contrasts
sharply with the ways of our world. Christian disciples participate in the Son of God’s mission
of redemptive love. As Paul puts in the final verse of the chapter, “Do not be overcome by evil,
but overcome evil with good.” This is the pattern of Jesus’ life, crucifixion, and resurrection.
Jesus’ disciples are to make it their own.

eliion and Politics
Patrick writes: Friday, November, 02, 2007 9:27 AM

"And He displays this to us constantly. We simply choose to remain ignorant.

In California, an evil law passed and was signed into law that confers special privileges upon homosexual perverts. The ink was barely dry on Schwarzenegger's signature when the biggest firestorm in California broke out in Southern California, followed up by a moderate earthquake in northern California.

When Bill Clinton says that homos should be in the military and this results in the most massive flooding in American history and begins to subside only as he changes his mind, then this should be a lesson for this country. Historical note should be made of it and resolve given that no such further attempt to legitimize homos should be made.

Are these punishments from God? Of course not. PUNISHMENTS if and when they come will make these incidents look like momentary nuisances. These events are mere WARNINGS.

There should be a government department of religious scholars set up to monitor such warnings and examine and explain their implications for immoral actions that government has taken."


This is the 21st century. I thought superstitions were things from our primitive past.


ReligiousLib
In what way is torture against the trachings iof Jesus Christ, considering that Jesus taught about Hell, where people are tortured for eternity?

Taft
Torture is not anti-Christian; after all, God condemns people to an eternity of torture for any and all sins.

Patrick
So this God you worship kills innocent people including babies as a means of sending a message. Wow that makes me glad I’m a Catholic. Our God is a much nicer deity.

dbz77
Yes, the key word is God, not man.

Taft
Rulers are ministers of God, revengers on those that doeth evil.

Taft
Thanks for your feedback. You certainly have a good point that Republicans have their garbage heap as well as Democrats do. And even though I voted for GWB I am just about as disgusted with him as you are.

Re-reading my post, however, I don't see any mention of Republicans or Democrats. Your response would be part of my point: I am tired of some of the labels so casually thrown out. I consider myself a Christian. Period. (Although I did vote for Jimmy Carter, and I am somewhat embarrassed to admit it!) "Christian" is not a synonym for "Republican", just as "pagan" is not a synonym for Democrat.

Thanks again. Let's get the rats out of government, whether they be Democrat or Republican!

dbz77
Would you mind telling where in the BIble Jesus says we should torture our enemies? It is the opposite, and I won't go on with silly arguments like this.

And therein lies the problem;
Christianity: Love thine enemies, do good to those who abuse you- VENGENCE IS MINE SAITH THE LORD. Torture in the after-life. Not HERE by men but man's maker. There has ALWAYS been disputes over WHO'S church was the real church, which is to say, who's interpretation of scriptures is the right one. When the 'current' trend is to IGNORE the scriptures, then it is nothing but a lie. Those are the people who have believed a lie or is invested in making others believe a lie. They are Satan's children. As the bible says; Satan is a liar and the father of lies. And his children do the same.
And on the subject of the separation of church and state: Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto GOD what is GOD'S.

Proud Liberal
"...Also feel that religious ideology should be debated in Congress, since that ideology is the basis of most congressmen's behavior."

But then they'd be forever in disagreement and never get anything done.

Come to think of it, maybe that is a good idea!

As a man thinks…

‘As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.’ [Proverbs 23:7]

Religious beliefs that influence our thinking as to world view, particularly the nature of man, will in one form or another be reflected in the policies of government. What we think is truth as a people will work out in the culture.

The choice before us is the moral relativism offered by the naturalists or the moral absolutes from divine revelation given to us by apostolic testimony and handed down to us in an open Bible.

In ages past the Scriptures were chained and withheld from the common people. By the power of God this yoke of bondage was broken and now the Bible is available in the common tongues to all men…

‘…the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.’ [Isaiah 11:9]

What is unique about the founding of America is readily available information for anyone who is interested in truth. Are we so foolish to think that our nation will continue when the foundation on which we stand is destroyed?

The God of life and truth is not mocked without consequences.

Mel + with profoundness states,
__"Some on the left think they know what Christianity is..." They not only know what it is, they are of its beginning, and use its passions in order to gain possessions for self. The origin, of their singular passion, and the continuance of their passion lies in their ability to sway the passions of a Loving congregation. Their power is in the ability to portray themselves as the cure for all ills. When voiced before a compassionate congregation, along with incremental steps of positive results, their power is enlarged. The positive results of their speculative manuveurs, along with its injection of individual prosperity, in the eyes of the beholder, they grow in power. Has they grow any detrimental affects of their policies are overlooked because of the good they do. A Christian should know this original sin, but the eyes of self, and self-love, blinds them. They even create seperate Christian congregations to teach the same Truth. It isn't difficult to play on the weakness of humans, when self-possession is at the heart of matter.

dbz77
Are you arguing that torture is condoned by the teachings of Jesus since sinners are tortured in hell? What ever became of "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord". I remember a bumper sticker from the 1950's that said "Kill a Commie for Christ" but your suggestion is new to me. I guess you could have a bumper sticker made that says "Waterboarding for Jesus".

Sadists are sadistic. Period. They will find a way to rationalize their sadism.

dbz77
hell is about ones soul my friend, torture is about the value (or lack of value by the torturer) of human life, Gods creation.

But does this argument conclude for the duty of paying tribute, custom, reverence, honor and obedience, to such persons as (although they bear the title of rulers) use all their powers to hurt and injure the public: such as are not God’s ministers, but satan’s? such as do not take care of, and attend upon, the public interest, but their own, to the ruin of the public? that is, in short, to such as have no natural and just claim at all to tribute, custom, reverence, honor, and obedience? It is to be hoped that those who have any regard to the apostle’s character as an inspired writer, or even as a man of common understanding, will not represent him as reasoning in such a loose incoherent manner; and drawing conclusions which have not the least relation to his premises. For what can be more absurd than an argument thus framed? "Rulers are, by their office, bound to consult the public welfare and the good of society: therefore you are bound to pay them tribute, to honor, and to submit to them, even when they destroy the public welfare, and are a common pest to society, by acting in direct contradiction to the nature and end of their office."

Thus, upon a careful review of the apostle’s reasoning in this passage, it appears that his arguments to enforce submission, are of such a nature, as to conclude only in favour of submission to such rulers as he himself describes; i.e. such as rule for the good of society, which is the only end of their institution. Common tyrants, and public oppressors, are not intitled [sic] to obedience from their subjects, by virtue of any thing here laid down by the inspired apostle.


Romans 13:3-4
3For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same: 4for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

Since God condemns people to torture as punishment for crimes, His ministers may do the same.

Strauss
Strauss writes: "I do believe in a God, I don't know how much he can effect our lives and I don't pretend to."

-

If you don't know how much he can affect your life, then how can you be thanking Him? And if you aren't thanking Him when you should be, what effect will that have in your life on the Day of Judgment?

Lilly
You or I are not permitted to torture or otherwise punish our enemies.

But as Romans 13:3-4 states, rulers are ministers of God, revengers of wrath upon those who doeth evil. Since God condemns people to torture for any and all sins, rulers may condemn people to torture as punishment for crimes.

crumbsrmine opines:
"Republicans worship money and use religion to control others. Its that simple."

And I reply, "Democrats worship money and use the GOVERNMENT to control others." LOL

MikeR (the "R" stands for "Rant")
We all have to die some day. And the baby that enters Heaven today may be spared something that would otherwise have occurred to him or her tomorrow.

God creates us, He can do with us as He pleases. So be grateful that He is a merciful and just God.

The main thing is - start learning to pay attention to His Signs.

SteveL writes
>>Christian government is not "limited".

conservative Christians like myself don't want "Christian" government, but we want government to be have Christian influence....like the 10 commandments posted on our courts walls. But I fear our government being called "Christian" as much as I fear it being called "Secular"...God forbid fallible man (a Christian doctrine) let's the state control the Church (which it threatens its tax-free status, and God forbid also, that the state is not influenced by Christians who have had huge influence over the course of events .....e.g. William Wilberforce.

As is, we have increasingly secularized government over the last 100 years, and federal government expansion has run amuck to the point that liberals are starting to legislate anti-biblical morality.....read rabid environmentalistm. They control education and dictate what can and cannot be done in local schools. As was predicted by A.A. Hodge, "...the United States system of national public education will be the most efficient and wide instrument for the promotion of atheism and humanism which the world has ever seen." The fruits, the public schools system has been the market place for the spread of illegal drugs.

1Samuel8 predicts what will happen when people turn to government as their god.

The OT warns of the things that has since happened to our government, and had our government still been influenced, God finds devaluing currency is wicked and abhors it. We are starting to pay the price with a government out of control who manipulates our currency to its hearts content, and will finance any war it sees fit by warming up the printing presses.

For limited government..., Christians like myself is why I support Ron Paul.

Patrick
Actually, the "R" doesnt. It stands for Mike's surname, which he posted once. Thought you might like to know that fact....

ReligiousLib
ReligiousLib: "i am pro-life as most liberal Christians are."

Just wondering... Do you support abortion rights?

Good point
One that's normally touched on by Christian commentators on Townhall.com:

"Then, when you start putting liberal Christians into the mix with conservative Christians -- well, don't even get me started. It's hard to believe that people who share the same faith can have so many wide-ranging political differences on even the most basic of issues."

The assumption (often tacitly assumed AND sometimes stated outright) by Townhall.com Christian columnists that atheists and agnostics are liberal and Christians are conservative are utter nonsense. Posters on the resulting threads PROVE it nonsense.

Professional polling results cross-referencing Americans' political ideology and metaphysical stances would be genuinely interesting, but as far as I know, non-existent.

IF it's a good thing for religious people to bring in their religious sensibilities to the public square (and I agree it is), THEN it is also a good thing for atheists and agnostics to bring in their non-religious sensibilities.

When the first avowedly atheist or agnostic is elected to a noteworthy American political office, I will celebrate his or her breakthrough, a successful smashing of America's cathedral ceiling in politics.

To budbud
"Those damn Christian politicians are infringing on the "domain of MY church". "

Not at all. Your church's gay weddings are perfectly valid... within the domain of your church. Within the domain of government, they are not. Heterosexual marriages, whether done in a church OR in front of the JP, are valid in the eyes of the government, since that is still how the majority of Americans apparently want it.

And indeed, Patrick...
The ONE thing MikeR never does is "rant"...

sophia writes: I am a Christian
I new it would happen... you have taken the first step!

JimmyJoe
Well ... I was just making an educated guess on that one. Traditionally education has 3Rs, so I think I get 2 more chances.

Rumpelstiltskin?

HA!

I can just visualize MikeR stomping his little feet deep into the ground right now.

lonestarblues whines:
"Morality is found in choosing to act good and bad toward others. How can you coerce that?" while disputing Hawkins contention that "almost all of our laws are based on morality."

If morality is the immutable universal standard for human behavior then our laws reflect an attempt to make mankind accountable for violations of the standard. Lawmakers know that just because they make a law that it will not automatacally make everyone abide by it. Why do we need laws if the law cannot MAKE a person behave in accordance with the universal standard for morality. Because then those citizens that HAVE morality and live in accordance to it would be at the mercy of the amoral among us thats why. We would have chaos because the heart of man is in rebellion against GOD, the author of "universal morality". Like the apostle Paul says, and I paraphrase, the law is only an indication of what GOD requires, it cannot save us because all of us sin. That's why we need a Savior and that's why GOD gave us JESUS. The lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

Signs of God are for ALL nations
Not long ago, Mexico City endorsed abortion and homosexuality.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071102/D8SLFSB80.html

Google "Leo Strauss" re: 9:51am post
Actually ignorance is repeating widely discredited claims. Your attempts to link Christianity with pagan practices shows laziness and lack of scholarship. In particular I will address your claim that Christians "resort to fictional books, all based on fictional books of the past. Zeus, Jesus, Mithra, Muhammed (sic), Horus etc. the list goes on."

Not much is known about Mithra, so we can't tell what they believed. What is known is that it started in Persia and did not spread into the western world until at least the late first century or early second century. That would make it too late to have influenced Christianity. One of the things we do know from drawings they left behind is that they believed Mithras was born from a rock. How you think this ties to the virgin birth of Christianity is anyone's guess.

You also mentioned Zeus but again there is no tie to Jesus. In Greek mythology the gods were told to have had human desires and lusted after human women. The result was children produced biologically, not through a virgin birth. Notice that these characters were also not historical figures who were placed in a historical context which can be verified, like Christ.


Leo Strauss part 2
Horus was an ancient Egyptian god who was supposedly the son of Osiris. According to their traditions he was produced biologically by Osiris and Isis (to be more specific Isis and Osiris' corpse after Osiris' brother killed and dismembered him). These stories were designed to explain the crop cycles. Again there is no comparison to the Biblical Christ, who came to Earth through a virgin birth as a redeeming Savior. The ancient Egyptians did not even have a concept of sin for people to be saved from.

Not sure why you included Muhammad in your list, since Christianity could not have been based on a person who lived 5 centuries after Christ.

If you choose not to believe in Christ that is your option, but given the ramifications if you are wrong you should at least do some investigation and not reject Christ out of ignorance.

Most laws are based on morality...
...secular morality.

My favorite example is of the stop sign. It is illegal to run a stop sign in America. Why? Did Jesus command it? No.

Because you are risking your life and the lives of people in cross traffic recklessly for no good reason.

Is that secular enough for you?

"We're told that you can't legislate morality. Newsflash: almost all of our laws are based on morality. Better that it be Christian morality than secular morality."

Man you are dumb to want that
Go ahead, let's pick a national religion. That will be much better to fight about. The best thing would be it would pit some of these "moral majority" people against each other. Sure they can all be united when they have a common enemy such as abortion (or any other perceived evil they have come up with) but when you ask them to start coming up with a single platform you will see some action.

Don't believe me? Take a look at the Nicene conference.

Patrick
"If you don't know how much he can affect your life, then how can you be thanking Him? And if you aren't thanking Him when you should be, what effect will that have in your life on the Day of Judgment?"

Because I do not demand or ask anything from God and I understand the limits of human intellect when applied to causality. Also because I can look around, there is not one moment. God should be thanked for something as mundane as a plant because if you really think about it it is amazing. How something could come from presumeably nothing, let alone a whole universe, it would be farcical to know specifics of God when we have such limited knowledge of his entire creation. That is another thing that I don't like about religion, it is earthly oriented with a self centered look at man. This blurs the adherent from the immensity and interdependance of the smaller elements that make up the larger picture.

TXGOP
I wasn't talking about the attributes of the characters. I was talking about their purpose.

dbz77
I knew you couldn't find Jesus saying torture was good. Stick to the basics. Jesus, as we all know very well, says to love our enemies, ect.. anything more, ruler, Tzar, dictator, or president, is going against his will. Anyway, for Pete's sake, Arar and many of the others never did a thing! The Afghanies who had an old score to settle would tell the Americans that Joe Blow was an AQ operative and get some money to boot.

Sophia
Sophia quoting Ghandi: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”"

Do you have any idea of just how judgemental that is? As for your "exception" - quite probably those who AGREE with your views. So no great "love" or "understanding" required on YOUR part.

As Christ Himself said, "Love your enemies" - which means your love must extend to EVERYone alike. I would have assumed this to be your position from the fact that you "respect" the teachings of Christ, but find "surprisingly" (LOL!) that it isnt.

Sophia's Choice is ...
Christian ... by Jeffersonian definition.

You must now forever more refer to yourself as a Jeffersonian Christian!

agreed?

Where laws really come from
Bruce Benson references my secular guru, Friedrich Hayek in his explanation of where laws come from. Laws do NOT come from the Absolute. They emerge from multiple human interactions, and the desire to eliminate harmful ones. As a matter of fact, attempts to impose the Absolute on the process of law-making can ruin good laws:

“The power of a sovereign almost never becomes absolute, but the cooperative groups’ customary law, a product of “spontaneous order,” is always distorted. As F. A. Hayek explained, “spontaneous order arises from each element balancing all the various factors operating on it and by adjusting all its various actions to each other, a balance which will be destroyed if some of the actions are determined by another agency on the basis of different knowledge and in the service of different ends.”10 The extortionist and his officers cannot fully anticipate the consequences of their actions because those actions inevitably cause a long train of readjustments.

The possibility that the extortionist will expropriate wealth (tax) reduces the producers’ long-term planning and the expected gains from cooperation. Furthermore, the legitimization of coercive rules and institutions stifles the development of trust relationships; the motive for honoring commitments becomes avoidance of punishment by the sovereign. Therefore, fewer voluntary organizations are formed and those formed often perform fewer functions. To the degree that such functions are demanded by powerful political interests, the sovereign may try to force continued production, and if that fails, he may attempt to produce them through his growing bureaucratic apparatus."

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=202

No Patrick... This will not do.
MikeR never rants... though he has occasionally caused OTHERS to. The disrespectful tone of your 12.26pm post would suggest that you might possibly check a mirror. It doesnt carry your point - that God shows us His signs - forward one whit.

sophia
"Definitely not keen on war mongering/pro torture type christians..."

I, a philosophical agnostic conservative, LIKE it when our troops fight and kill terrorists. A good terrorist is a dead terrorist.

Why do you, a Christian liberal, have a problem with that? Especially after Sept. 11?

Positive Liberty and Hayekian law
The following on Hayek’s attitude toward law-making is an outtake from a post by Timothy Sandefur in Postiive Liberty, a blog, which I believe, a fellow poster here at Townhall.com contributes to. (If you’re reading this thread, let us know):

“In it, Hayek argues against what he calls “constructivist rationalism,” which is the attitude that we can enact positive legislation and thereby change the social order of society. Hayek prefers common law to statutes, and general rules to specific ones, because they are amenable to the process of spontaneous order.”

http://positiveliberty.com/2005/07/some-thoughts-on-hayek.h tml

Hayek very clearly believed in cultural evolution. As a matter of fact, I consider him one of the great scholars on cultural evolution of the 20th century. He clearly never believed in the existence any Absolute, commanding our moral sentiments or our laws.

And clearly, he was no liberal (as defined by the current American political spectrum). And even more clearly, he was the opposite of an Evil Leftist.

sophia
"Hey whatever happened to that Osama guy?"

I think he got roasted and toasted in Tora Bora. Not enough left of him for a DNA analysis.

I think the subsequent tapes are fake.

Patrick
How is killing babies merciful or just? When I want to tell my neighbor to pick up the trash in his yard and cut the grass, I just knock on his door and tell him. I don’t set his house on fire and trap his family inside. But now that you mention it, maybe legalized abortion was God’s message for us accepting gays and gay activism is God’s message for legalizing abortion.

Was that noisy, excited, or declamatory enough? I wouldn’t want to lose my R for rant rating.