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Friday, March 30, 2007
John Hawkins :: Townhall.com Columnist
10 Questions For Al Gore And The Global Warming Crowd
by John Hawkins
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I'll be the first to admit that like most conservatives, I'm deeply skeptical of the idea that mankind is causing global warming. Is that because I take payoffs from the energy industry, don't like Al Gore, don't like science, or any of the other silly excuses global warming alarmists come up with to explain why people don't buy their theory?

No.

It's because "the Earth-is-going-to-burn-us-alive" crowd cannot answer the most basic questions about the theory that they haughtily insist is so beyond reproach that there should be no more need for debate. In fact, the most ironic thing about the global warming argument is that Al Gore and Company have declared that it's settled, but they have to use scary stories about cities being flooded a hundred years from now and fake tales about polar bears drowning to sell it. If they're on such rock solid scientific ground, why doesn't the science speak for itself? Does anyone remember Sir Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein trying to get people to buy into their scientific theories by coming up with doomsday scenarios? No, of course not.

Despite that, like most conservatives, I'm open minded and could be convinced that mankind is responsible for causing global warming -- but with science, not scaremongering. If the proponents of the manmade global warming theory can come up with good answers to questions like these, you can expect everyone, including me, to accept their theory:

1) The earth has warmed and cooled numerous times in the past and many of those temperature swings have been much greater than anything we've experienced so far. So, since we human beings don't really understand why those temperature swings occurred, how can we be sure that the very mild warming we've seen so far hasn't been caused by normal changes in our climate?

2) If greenhouse gasses produced by mankind are behind the roughly one degree increase in temperature over the last century, then why did the global temperature go down from roughly 1940 to 1975 even though mankind's production of greenhouse gasses was skyrocketing during that same time period?

3) We can't accurately predict whether it's going to rain or not a week from now. We can't accurately predict what the weather will look like next year (Remember that in 2005, they were predicting we'd be hammered with non-stop hurricanes in 2006 because of global warming. It didn't happen). Since that's the case, how can we possibly have any confidence in predictions of what the weather will be like in 50-100 years?

4) Mars has also been experiencing global warming. Since man can't be a factor on that planet, doesn't it suggest that perhaps a factor other than man, i.e. the sun, is responsible for the warming on both planets?

5) Back in the early seventies, the in-vogue scientific theory was that we were in the midst of global cooling that was caused by man. Now, it turns out that there was nothing much behind that except that the global temperature was getting cooler. So, where did they go wrong back in the early seventies and how do we know that we're not making the same type of mistake today in forecasting global warming?

6) Global warming alarmists will tell you that there is "scientific consensus" that mankind is causing global warming and that only a few scientists disagree. But, there are more than 17,200 scientists who say that, "There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate." Since that's the case, how can anyone credibly claim that there is "scientific consensus" on the issue?

7) Even if mankind was responsible for global warming, how would the solutions that are being offered, like Kyoto or carbon credit trading schemes, fix the problem? Big developing countries like India and China are exempt from Kyoto and unlikely to sign on to any deal that hurts their economy, Europe isn't meeting its Kyoto goals, and environmentalists say Kyoto wouldn't fix the problem even if all of its targets are met.

8) In Bill Bryson's book on science, "A Short History Of Nearly Everything," (and yes, Bryson does appear to be a believer in manmade global warming), he notes that,

"For most of its history until fairly recent times, the general pattern was for earth to be hot with no permanent ice anywhere." -- P.427

That would seem to suggest that despite everything we hear about the "hottest temperatures on record," the global temperature is significantly cooler than it has been throughout much of earth's history. Since that's the case, is the small change in global temperature we've seen so far really out of the ordinary or anything to be alarmed about? 9) As Carl Zimmer has noted in Discover, at times in the earth's past, we've had considerably more carbon dioxide in the air that we do today, and yet it's debatable whether the temperature was significantly warmer,

"During the Ordovician Period, 440 million years ago, there seems to have been 16 times as much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere as there is today--and yet, judging from the gravelly deposits it left behind, there was also an ice sheet near the South Pole that was four-fifths the size of present-day Antarctica. The second exception is even more troubling. The Cretaceous Period, when dinosaurs ruled the Earth and CO2 levels were about eight times what they are today, has been one of the most popular case studies for global warming forecasters. And everyone knows what the climate was like during the dinosaurs’ heyday: steamy. Or was it? The latest evidence, reported just this past summer by British researchers, suggests that temperatures in the tropics 95 million years ago were no higher than they are now; and while it was a lot warmer at the poles than it is today, it was still freezing cold."

Doesn't this suggest that there isn't anywhere near as much of a close relationship between greenhouse gasses like carbon dioxide and the temperature as many people seem to believe?

10) Skeptics of manmade global warming have often pointed out that the rise in global temperature seems to track much more closely to increased solar activity than it does to an increase in manmade greenhouse gasses. Doesn't that seem to strongly suggest that the sun, not mankind, is more likely to be responsible for global warming?

Bonus Question) If people like Al Gore believe their own hype and think it's necessary for us to cut back our energy consumption, why aren't they practicing what they preach? If a global warming fanatic like Al Gore can’t get by on less than 20 times the amount of energy that a regular family uses, how can we reasonably expect the average family to dramatically cut their energy usage?

Quite frankly, if you buy into manmade global warming, you should have good answers for these questions or, if you don't, admit that your opinion is based more on faith and guesswork than it is on science.

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John Hawkins is a professional blogger who runs Right Wing News, Linkiest, and Viral Footage.
 
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He played
on our fears!

"It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine..."

silly
The funny thing about this account is the idea that the great historical scientists have put out their theories and this was immediately followed by acceptance by the scientific community and understanding by the people.

Newton's theories did not gain acceptance in continental Europe for a century. Relativity was understood by only a dozen people for a long time until populizers made it accessible to other scientists. Most of the average people who accept it have no idea what it says. And, of course Darwin's ideas relatively quickly gained scientific acceptance as evidence poured in confirming it, but there are still people in this country who deny it.

So the idea that 17,200 scientists (where scientist is very loosely defined so that the great majority do not actually have any particular expertise in relevant areas) is significant is silly. Similar lists have been made to suggest that there is a lack of scientific consensus about evolution, and also for conspiracy theories about 9/11. I once had a student give me a book claiming the same thing about relativity.

Some of the challenges above are beyond silly. Does the fact that the earth has not been ideally suited for human existence during much of its history mean that we shouldn't care if it is in the future? Should our approach to science really be that since it is too complicated we should just throw in the towel? Is it really any more complicated than quantum mechanics, and was it a mistake to tackle that issue which created the dominance of the US (after Hitler did us the favor of chasing all of his best scientists to the US)?

My Answers (No Guarantees)
1) I don't think we can be *absolutely* sure. But there is strong, even compelling, evidence. Would you bet your grandchildren on it?

2) No comment, because I don't know if his factual representation is accurate.

3) Weather and climate are different things. Simple as that.

4) No, it suggests that man is not a factor on Mars. Man may be a factor on Earth. There is evidence to suggest that is the case. Even if you disagree, that Mars may be undergoing some sort of warming cannot be compared with Earth. It's just one data point.

5) I don't know where they went wrong. And I don't know that we aren't wrong today. But the stakes are high, and the evidence is strong. More knowledge and evidence accumulates every day. We know more than we did then.

6) I'd like to see a cite before I comment on this.

7) Somewhat irrelevant. I mean, it's either happening or it's not. If it is, should we wait until we have the absolutely best agreement to do anything about it? Maybe if we pitched in, others would follow our example. It's called leadership. Something that is sorely lacking in this country lately.

8) Um, I could be wrong, but I think Bryson was cognizant Earth's very long (by human standards) history. Yes, for most of its existence the Earth was perhaps a hot place, but that was because it took a long frickin time to cool off from its original molten state. Millions of years ago is still "fairly recent."

9) Haven't read this article.

10) No one disputes that solar activity is a large contributor to climate. The question is whether there is additional evidence.

Bonus Answer (Jeopardy Style): Considering that the vast majority (something like 75-85% of Americans) believe that climate change presents a real risk (meaning that it may not happen, but is worth taking steps to prevent), why do "conservatives" continue to dig in their heels so much. The battle is lost. Stubborness just turns off even more people.

Even more bonus answer: Even if climate change is not real, isn't there reason enough to consume less? Have you been to Los Angeles lately? How can it be that a person would worship Jesus and yet be totally o.k. with air that you can't even see through, or fish poisoned by mercury? Isn't a clean world for posterity reason enough to more sustainable habits? To those who say no, I ask: AT WHAT POINT will growth become too much? At what point will you say, o.k., we have too many people, we're consuming too many resources, etc? Is it only when *your* water is dirty?

A man who believes that growth can continue forever is either insane or an economist.

One more point
I think it is sort of ridiculous to demand that climate change "believers" who may be reading this thread put forward compelling evidence. After all, most of these people will not be climatologists, or scientists of any kind. The point is that there are credible scientists all over the world who have reached a consensus on this point. That is why I think that the risk is at least sufficient to take protective steps (i.e. it may not happen, but the risk is there).

Similarly, you don't second-guess everything your doctor says. That is why you go to see him. That is why we have things like the National Academy of Sciences. Yeah, all these scientists could be wrong. But who here really has the expertise to question them? That is why one or two doesn't make the difference. It's when you get to thousands.

Heh heh heh
As this column's debate develops later today, I'm going to be VERY happy I've been "cut & pasting" a lot my previous comments into a Word Doc I can draw from.

Why keep reinventing the wheel?

Anthropogenic Global Warming is a load of horses**t, I'll start with that, written freshly.

Time to start the dance!


I was going to spend time responding...
But you know what? Whatever. I'll never convince you. You'll never convince me. Let's leave it at that. I think releasing millions of years of stored carbon in the space of one or two centuries is highly risky. You don't. Great. We'll see what happens. This is unfortunately one of those debates where practically nobody changes their mind once made up.

Marc- wrong
The libs don't hate creature comforts. They just hate you to have them.

Lon Silly

What is Silly is Algore telling us and the rest of the world that we should be sinking billions of dollars into "saving" the planet based on studies that he is not schooled in, nor does he believe in it enough to practise himself.

What is Silly is the maroons who buy into his hypocritical splooge.

What is dangerous is the maroons in power who buy into his hypocritical splooge.

Lon, what's silly is
David Cameron having a wind turbine on the roof of his house (there not being enough wind in London to make use of it).

For more silliness, click this link and then on "Wesley Pruden":

http://exeter.townhall.com/g/dac35e90-1152-49c3-971f-3e9ccceacd9c

Monty
Even if you have good answers for all the other ones, the key is the answer to #7. If you go to the doctor and he says that you're dying of a particular disease, but we don't have a cure for it anyway and you can change your diet and exercise but it still won't have an effect, then would you still exercise and change your diet? Yeah, like India and China are going to take our lead on the environment, when it would stall the growth their economies are seeing. China won't even help out in the U.N. when it comes to Iran and only helps a little with North Korea because they're worried about the economic impact those issues would have on them; and that's nothing compared to the impact a full-fledged Kyoto would have. You're dreaming.

P.S. And saying that just because Mars is heating up because of the sun doesn't mean the Earth isn't heating up because of man is ridiculous on its face. If you think that's a convincing argument, you're stupid; and if you know how specious it is, you're deceptive. Your argument is analogous to this, and just as idiotic: "When the sun comes up on the East coast, it warms temperatures there. But who's to say that the warming of temperatures that happens on the West coast is caused by the same sun hitting it three hours later? Maybe it's caused by something else entirely." And as Wayne and Garth used to say: maybe monkeys might fly out of my butt.

Monty doesn't want to debate...
...but I feel like answering him anyway. Whatever.

1) I haven't seen "strong, compelling evidence." I've seen ridiculous models that are provably less accurate than a random number generator, a LOT of frankly dishonest research, and outright thuggery, which honest research would never require or countenance.

2) I believe he's citing the 20th century temperature estimates by NASA that were included in the 1st through 3rd IPCC reports. I do recall that the IPCC graphs showed cooling from the 50s through the 70s.

3) Climate is far harder to predict than weather. Ergo, his point is not only relevant, but understated.

4) If Mars is experiencing global patterns that are similar to earth, that suggests that man is not a large factor. THAT is "strong, compelling evidence."

5) "The stakes are high" is a flaccid excuse, frequently offered by Leftists when they're making up reasons to do something utterly destructive. It has nothing whatsoever to do with science. "The evidence is strong." No, it's not. See #1, above.

6) It was a petition circulated among American scientists stating their opposition to Kyoto because it was based on bad science. The link was in the article. Here it is again: http://www.oism.org/pproject. Read it, it's brief and relevant.

7) How can an intelligent person POSSIBLY believe that saying "what you propose will not solve the problem" is irrelevant??????????? Nothing could POSSIBLY be more relevant. If the proposed solution will not solve the problem, then there's no reason to do it, no matter how strong the science is! (Sometimes leftists just say the most incredibly ridiculous things!!!!!)

8) I agree.

9) I've read similar arguments, and don't find them all that convincing. But the evidence posited by AGW supporters, purporting to prove that CO2 and global temps are linked, actually shows global temps consistently LEADING CO2 by about 800 years. In other words, the AGW crowd's best evidence for the link actually proves that high temps cause CO2 to rise, not the other way round.

10) Much of the AGW "strong evidence" actually ignores the influence of the sun, and hence cannot accurately assess how strongly man's contribution affects total warming. In particular, the models on which the current hysteria is primarily based, do not include solar activity.

Bonus Q: A) Bunk. B) Irrelevant. C) We continue to "dig in our heels" because we perceive that the AGW movement is really a wedge issue to assert global government and Marxist-style personal control, removing our liberties and achieving what the Soviets tried but could not achieve, the economic destruction of the West. In short, we think you're lying. D) If what's attacking is evil (which, in this case, it is), then I'm continuing to fight until I'm dead, no matter how many fools you've swindled with your lies.

Bonus Q 2: Growth can be sensible, and wealth is the cure for poverty. People suffer because they lack; we can cure that through growth (and by freeing them from destructive economic systems that stifle growth.) Cars, factories, electrical plants are an order of magnitude cleaner than they were just 30 years ago, and can be improved further without stifling growth.

And besides, your fear of growth is a HORRIBLE reason to impose on the planet an economic regime that has systematic wrecked every local economy that's ever tried it.


No, guys, wait up on Monty
If only the rest of the AGW dogmatists would take Monty's "wait and see" attitude of his Friday, March, 30, 2007 1:39 AM post, we wouldn't really have any need for all this conflict.

I have no problem with "wait and see". My problem lies with the "maybe there's a problem, so let's put mankind back in caves" AlBore-type approach.

Let's not turn this into a hate-fest of Monty -- who actually took a rational approach in that he put out an opinon and let it stand for itself -- but take a closer look at the AlBore dogmatics. Monty doesn't seem to be one of them, in all fairness.


Global warming is real, and it's fast!
Who's right, who's wrong, what positions 'libs' have. Completely immaterial when we're talking about the loss of our own atmosphere.

At the current rate of carbon dioxide pollution, the Midwest is scheduled to lose 35 percent of soil moisture in the next 50 years.

That will commmit the productive states of Ohio, Illinois, Iowa etc. to dustbowl conditions.

----
We better get cracking on solving this -- because it ain't goin' away!

---
How you can make a difference, right away, today:
1)
http://www.stopglobalwarming.org/sgw_takeaction.asp

2)
http://www.theweathermakers.com/globalwarming/

3) http://www.climatechoices.org/ne/

I am still waiting
for the proposed solutions from the AGW crowd. We have seen the Albore non-solution which is pay him for carbon offsets. We have seen the UN solution which is pay the 3rd world for carbon offsets or reduce your economy to that of Equatorial Guinea.

wow powerful arguments
This is a powerful read. New idea and insights that have never been said before.
Theese things have been said 10000000000 times before with the same answers and the same website.

Simply Put AL Gore is not a scientist. He has more of a experience in telling false stories than he does with science, this is no different.

Biology Lesson for Nuts and Ignoramuses
There is a carbon cycle. Every bit of biomass that dies is transformed into its component parts by decomposers (fungi, bacteria and protists). When carbon compounds are broken down they turn into Carbon Dioxide. Thus, the Ordovician when there was lush growth and high biomass would have more CO2 because there was more biomass to rot.

The more CO2 in the air, the more food for plants, which ultimately makes more food for animals. The Carbon Cycle is a wonderful thing, a truth Algore and the rest of the idiots conveniently ignore.

JC
I go to your first link and read things that are obviously incorrect. Do I have to be lied to be saved?

I will when Al Gore does
I'm not changing anything until Al Gore puts his fat butt where his mouth is. (I agree that would take Yoga, but I'll wait.)

As long as Al Gore makes no changes, either by losing 50 lb. or by dropping 90% of his energy use, I'm continuing on with my lifestyle as is.

I also refuse to eat oat bran, worry about trans fats, slap cigarettes out of the hands of informed adults, scream "NO NO!" at gamblers, or stand at the school house door frisking children for evidence of peanut butter.

Why don't we just leave each other alone? If you have beliefs, act on them in your personal life -- lead by example -- and convert people one by one. If you have to be a Marching Mommy to get any attention for your beliefs, they're not worthy. (My friend once made this "compelling" argument regarding Social Security: "Would you contribute if you didn't have to? SEE, THEN YOU HAVE TO BE FORCED TO!")

Carbon Credits
Can there be anything more elitist than the benificiary of a huge fortune paying his environmental "penance" for using 20 times the energy of ordinary citizen? "Sir, your not conserving energy. That's ok, I'm rich."

Which Has a Higher Number?
1. The current avg global temp
or
2. Al (The Holy Moron Emperor of global warming)Gore's IQ

THE DEBATE DOES NOT EXIST
There is NO DEBATE about global warming. The AGW's want you to believe that there is a debate BUT they are the only ones perpetuating it! Clearly the OBJECTIVE evidence as presented today debunk global warming as a fact. The major players in the AGW pseudo debate all have a hidden agenda: The imposition of a new social order on the world in general and the United States in particular. "inkling_revival" got it right:

"We continue to "dig in our heels" because we perceive that the AGW movement is really a wedge issue to assert global government and Marxist-style personal control, removing our liberties and achieving what the Soviets tried but could not achieve, the economic destruction of the West. In short, we think you're lying. D) If what's attacking is evil (which, in this case, it is), then I'm continuing to fight until I'm dead, no matter how many fools you've swindled with your lies."

There is no true objective SCIENCE in their assertions and they will continue to obfuscate the global warming "issue" in an attempt to "play on our fears" [to quote AG]. TheIR target is the politically and socially unsophisticated general mass of people that Marx referred to as 'useful idiots" who know little or nothing about the scientific method. They will believe what they see in movies, TV and the newspapers since most have not been educated on how to evaluate things for themselves. They have been educated to accept only what is given to them and not to think for themselves. These are the people who will shout that "the facts" are that GW is a reality - simply based on what the media choses to publish.

A person or two here have ridiculed the belief in creation stating the evolution is a scientific fact! They show their own ignorance of the scientific method -- BOTH creation and evolution are THEORIES!!! In the scientific world they would could only become facts when enough scientists accept the theories based upon being able to experiment with repeatable consistent results. In the case of the "origin of species" there can only be a study of historical evidence and an interpretation of that evidence. Its not the historical evidence that is in debate in this case but the "interpretation" of the facts that are in debate. Since it is not possible to conduct experiments in the origin of the species both theories will always remain theories as they are not based on the kind of science that gives us medical and technological advances. So the interpretation of the historical evidence will always be a matter of what premises the interpreter assumed. Thus both schools of thought are in fact FAITH based.

The AGW crowd are counting on the average person to accept as fact that which is based on FAITH in the same manner as the proponents of either creation or evolution. The only difference is that the anti-AGW people at least base their position on a considerable body of scientific evidence that is measurable and quantifiable that contradicts what the GW alarmists are claiming. The AGW folks on the other hand deny these facts in order to gain ground on their hidden agenda. THEY will be the ones to destroy the earth NOT Global Warming at all.

TO REPEAT: "THERE IS NO DEBATE" there are only lies and half-truths offered by the AGW's and published by the media. Its the AGW people who have declared the end to a debate that never existed but in their own minds. The rest of us rational people evaluate the evidence and know the truth. But to the AGW's: THE END OF THE WORLD IS NEAR!

Answers
You might be interested in answers to questions like these. If so, just google global warming. For example, http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html .

Just to answer question 1: we cannot be sure of anything, but there certainly is a preponderance of evidence. Scientists believe the present warming is man made. What they fear is not the warming that has happened (only a degree?), but the warming that will happen if we don't stop carbon emissions.

We did not witness climate changes of the past, but they were not totally benign. Whole species became extinct (oops, do you believe in evolution??).

The REAL question is...
What is the correct temperature of the earth?

Are we warming TOWARD the correct temperature or AWAY from it?

It matters a lot, but who dares answer that?

OOPS
I don't believe evolution is true and I don't believe anything LiberalGman is true either.

Nice try, Monty, but no cigar
Hawkins' entire point is that if one cannot DEFINITIVELY (my paraphrase) refute those 11 questions, is GW a fact or just a belief? You sir did nothing but season your your OPINIONS with fear of a projected outcome.

Answer the questions in an unrefutable way, or admit that the issue is still in debate.

Another question for the AGW moonbats
OK, let's assume that the atmosphere is warming faster than it naturally would, and the warming is caused by evil capitalist man. Why do you AGW moonbats automatically assume that every single effect would not only be bad but catastrophic? The geologic record shows that during the many times that the Earth has been warmer in the past billion years, life thrived and the Earth was lusher. Why would it be any different this time?

lgm
90% of all the species that have ever existed are extinct. What's your point?

lon
Darwin discounted his own theory as have many scientists. If monkeys evoloved into humans why are there no monkeys turning into humans now? If beings discovered a watch on the moon would they marvel at how elements came together to suddenly end up a watch or ponder at who made it? You forget about Gallileo who found out the earth rotated around the sun but the "consensus" was the opposite and he was put under "house "arrest" - The "Gw deniers" are the Gallileo's of today not the other way around. Consensus is NOT science!
Tell me, what is the temperature of the earth SUPPOSED to be?? Eh?
I think the sun must revolve around the earth -case closed, can't have any arguments you "sun sround the earth" deniers.

Some facts to ponder
1. The 17,200 scientists Hawkins refers to are for the most part either (a) climatologists, (b) meteorologists, or (c) geologists- all of whom make their living by understanding how the planet and its natural cycles work. I keep seeing "scientists" promoting the AGW POV - who turn out to be (d) sociologists, (e) political scientists, or (f) film makers with no scientific credentials at all.

As a general rule, if I need an opinion on whether I need my appendix removed, I'm going to get it from an IM specialist, not a podiatrist, and certainly not a PoliSci major. Similarly, I prefer people who actually are qualified to give an opinion on weather when I need... an opinion on weather.

2. If you are worried about CO2 in the atmosphere, promote nuclear and hydroelectric power to replace fossil-fuel power. I'm sure yo're tired of hearing it from me, in fact I'm tired of having to say it, but the facts of physics mandate that as the answer. If you don't believe me, ask James Lovelock.

3. "Creation Science", "Creationism", and/or "Intelligent Design" are religious beliefs. Darwin's theory of natural selection , which is what most people mean when they refer to "evolution", has been scientifically verified within the limits of our scientific knowledge and expertise'. The word "theory" means something entirely different in science than what it means in common English. The confusion about this is one more example of "Doc" Smith's axiom that specialists cannot communicate efficiently in Basic. Before you can sling the lingo, first you have to learn the language. Science has its own terminology. Never confuse it with that of the public square.


Clear ether!

eon

Solid and liquid state of water
OK, I have a question. Well actually several, but they are all related. Is it not true that when water freezes, it takes up more space as ice than when it was liquid? Look at an ice cube tray when you put water in it. Put it in the freezer then look at it after a few hours. The top of the frozen ice cube is higher than where is was when it was liquid.
Now, do this on a global scale. The north pole has no land mass; it is nothing but ice. If it melts, will the liquid not take up less volume than it did as a solid? Won't that then mean the ocean level will decrease as the ice melts? How do we get flooded by ice melting.

monty
Consensus is NOT science!!!

Temperature and CO2
The bio CO2 cycle was mentioned above, but there is also the very large amount of CO2 dissolved in the oceans.

The solubility of CO2 in water decreases as temperature increases. (This is true of the solubility most gases in most liquids). Think of a carbonated soft drink -- how much CO2 comes out of solution when you open a warm Coke vs a cold Coke?

Granted the solubility change is extremely small for only a fraction of a degree temperature change, but the volume of the world's oceans is pretty damn large -- even if you only consider the upper layer of the oceans above the thermocline.

Thus, increased global temperature will cause CO2 to come out of solution in the world's oceans to be released into the atmosphere.

I agree that there may very well be a correlation between temperature and CO2 level, but I think that the GW crowd has the causality wrong -- its not increased CO2 causing increases temperature, but the other way around, increased temperature causing increased increased atmospheric CO2.

Also as a geologist I work with once said:

"In the entire history of the earth, there has never been such thing as 'Global Climate Stay-the-Same'!"

The reason
is simple...It's Bushs' fault. Now be good little lemmings and buy some carbon credits from my company.

/sarcasm off

LG
There is a preponderance of evidence that suggests Creation is true. What should we do about it?

To Monty and Others
First, AGW as both a politcal and "scientific" theory is a fairly new thing. I think it was GISS Administrator Dr Hansen, who during a wickedly hot/dry summer in 1988, published a paper which tied the recent (since 1977) warming to catastrophic increases in CO2. The movement caught steam right about the same time the Iron Curtain fell (1991). The first Earth Summit occured in 1992. The Kyoto Protocols were written in 1997. The famous Hockey Stick (MBH9X) came out in 2000 (It has since then quietly allowed to die a slow death).

Climate Science is a rather dull science. It is mostly made of theorists who specialized in some particular facet of long term atmospheric variability. When I was a weather forecaster some 20 years ago, the journals I read usually spoke in terms of centuries if not thousands of centuries, and even then there was a lot of uncertainty. No one really attempted to "forecast climate". The biggest break through came with the discovery of "teleconnections" (widely seperated atmospheric events that could be connected by some common feature). The best known teleconnection is the Southern Oscillation (El Nino). Climate scientists discovered this teleconnection in 1976, but the real research has been even more recent. These oscillations of either sea surface temperatures, wind variations (as in the North Atlantic Oscillation) drive quite a bit of our short term climate. No one can pin point AGW as the driving factor on how intense these oscillations can become. But, we can with some precision use them a a short term weather analog.

The drviing force of the International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC, a UN organization), is that we KNOW WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that CO2 concentrations are THE ONLY DRIVING FORCE for all climate variation (read the Feb IPCC 4AR). So, in just 20 years, our climate scientists have done a 180, and now they've cracked the Rosetta Stone of all climatic mysteries.

OF course, this is utter nonsense. If that were true, then we should be able to apply their algorithims to medium range NOAA forecast models, and get fairly accurate results. Our NOAA forecaters should be able to predict 1 yr, 3yr, and even 5yr season climatic variations with a good degree of precision - this they cannot even come close to doing. There is much more to our climate then CO2 concentrations and thier attendent forcings and feedbacks.

The reason why this should be brought out is the fact that the UN and IPCC have an entire list of prescriptions to "correct CO2 concentrations"; these prescriptions would not only curtail economic growth worldwide if implemented, but would remove many constitutional rights by extra-constiutional means. Were not talking about relatively benign rules or regs, but a whole sale re-ordering of our society, our constitutional laws, and our economic freedom. That's why we just can't "wait and see". Climate scientists enjoy the money, public adulation, and fame that the MSM has showered on them. What was once a sleepy organization of eggheads, is now a media savvy, semi-wealthy collection of public advocates who now sing the same song - the AGW community is one huge echo chamber. May God protect the lone "skeptics" who has the audacity to sing a different tune.

eon
To hone your point #1: Scientists who promote AGW are largely involved in disciplines which examine the effects of the climate on other elements of the ecosystem. Thus, they study the effects of climate change, not its causes. this amy not sound significant, but it's huge especially when Big Al & friends want us to put 90% of modern human economic activity into stasis, just so they can take long hot showers, swim in heated pools, and live in mansions that would completely house and feed a third world nation. Forgive me if my line of thought wavers, I work graveyard shift & it's past my bedtime.

$$$$$$$$ and NUTINFINER
Thank you $$$$$$$$ for injecting some reason and sanity into the debate.

Nutinfiner did you actually READ all of $$$$$$ post? He did not support AGW at all. I admit that when I first started to read the $$$$$post I copped an attitude. I kept reading with an open mind and was mollified by his philosophical reasoning. $$$$$$$$$$ keep posting, ya got at least one fan.......

Lon you thilly savage

.....Lon ...

.....I don't accept the law of gravity ...would you please jump off the Empire State Building to prove me wrong .....COLOSSUS

JP
Outf***ingstanding post.The last two paragraphs of it shoule be tatooed to Big Al's forehead and if there's not enough room there, put the rest on his azz. If I may summarize, most GWBS is based on computer models,as you say. Their AlGorerhythms are so inept they cannot take the variables they were written to optimize from 100 yrs ago (well defined conditions) and even come close to forecasting today's climate from them. The premise of the last paragraph is even more damning- they fudge the data to obtain the desired results. No one who does anything like this should call themselves a scientist.

Questions for Both Sides
For conservatives.
No argument that carbon dioxide is a really small percentage of the atmosphere; however the effective coefficient in the climate equation could be a very large number.
If the effective coefficient for carbon dioxide is a huge number then yes even mankind’s small contribution of CO2 could have a large net impact on Climate.
We don't want to base our public policies on other countries do we, so be more adult and don’t use the well china doesn't do it. Quite frankly I would want to lead China and not follow it. Same goes for the "well AL gore doesn't do it". We know dems are hypocrites. Bad behavior does not justify bad behavior.
DO not make the same mistakes as the Envirowackos, a correlation between solar flares and Temp does not prove anything, any more that correlation between CO2 and Temp proves anything, even if it is a more sensible leading relationship.
Yes the earth may indeed be meant to be hotter, but how much hotter are we willing to tolerate? If we could make it rain in the Sahara and make the environment much more habitable would you not do it because it is unnatural and Earth is just doing what it does?

For liberals
Science needs to be proven before it is fact. Reproducible experimentation is what determines if a theory is 'true', not how many people agree with it. Remember as far as consensus goes, you most likely think that half the country is nuts, at least if you go by elections , so remember lots of people can be wrong on an issue at least from an individual perspective.
Trees breathe CO2, why can't we just bioengineer trees that inefficiently use CO2, and plant a whole bunch of em. Would that be an acceptable solution?
If Global Warming is a fact, why do we continue to fund research into it, don’t we 'know' it already? We do not still research whether Voltage equals Current times Resistance.
How much material and energy does it take to make a solar cell or windmill?
Better safe than sorry. How sorry and how safe, how much must we give up and change for your comfort.
And YES I am willing to bet my Grandchildren’s life on it! Yours too!

Water shrinks then expands
skywalker81:
As water passes from solid to liquid state, it does take up less volume. But as it continues to increase in temperature, it's volume then starts to expand. When the ocean as a whole warms, it expands and the sea level rises.

Real agenda
Some of the folks here have it right -- the real agenda of the pro-GW crowd is power. If they can get sheeple to buy into the "world is coming to an end" fairy tale, then the sheeple will look to the fairy tale authors for answers. (Actually, the logic of this escapes me -- if your doctor diagnoses you with an illness and tells a politician so he/she can tell you about it, do you ask your politician what the cure is?. This bestows great power on the fairy tale authors.

I have just two questions for those who still want us to believe the fairy tale:
1. If this is not about grabbing power (creating a global governmental body), then why are the two largest political bodies who have lost the most power recently (AlBore and the U.N.) the loudest advocates?
2. If the debate is so settled, the evidence so strong, then why the effort to stifle evidence to the contrary?

to Skywalker81
I always wonder about that too since all the ice is in the ocean, and not only that i have heard that, but that the land is actually rising or sinking into the ocean, not the other way around!
Timothy Ball - the canadian climatologist

scroll down the article for info about the sea/ocean rising myth.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/mostread/s_492572.html

Science and Engineering
From Kicking the Sacred Cow by James P. Hogan

"So today, I reserve the aphorism for engineering. You can fool yourself if you want, and you can fool as many as will follow for as long as you can get away with it. But you can't fool reality. If your design is wrong, your plane won't fly. Engineers don't have the time or the inclination for highfalutin' theories. In fact, over-elaborate theories that try to reach too far, I'm beginning to suspect, might be the biggest single menace affecting science."

"Whatever science might be as an ideal, scientists turn out to be as human as anyone else, and they can be as obstinate as anyone else when comfortable beliefs solidify into dogma. Scientists have emotions—often expressed passionately, despite the myths—and can be as ingenious as any senator at rationalizing when a reputation or a lifetime's work is perceived to be threatened. They value prestige and security no less than anyone else, which inevitably fosters convergences of interests with political agendas that control where the money and the jobs come from. And far from least, scientists are members of a social structure with its own system of accepted norms and rewards, commanding loyalties that at times can approach fanaticism, and with rejection and ostracism being the ultimate unthinkable."

"The factors bringing this about are various. Massive growth of government funding and the direction of science since World War II have produced symbiotic institutions which, like the medieval European Church, sell out to the political power structure as purveyors of received truth in return for protection, patronage, and prestige. Sometimes vested commercial interests call the tune. In areas where passions run high, ideology and prejudice find it easy to prevail over objectivity. Academic turf, like any other, is defended against usurpers and outside invasion. Some readily trade the anonymity and drudgery of the laboratory for visibility as celebrities in the public limelight. Peer pressure, professional image, and the simple reluctance to admit that one was wrong can produce the same effects at the collective level as they do on individuals."

ALGOR - THE Dolt of the Year???
1. move measuring points, change any readout.
2. e.g. Pluto - hotter or cooler?
3. B.C. thermometers - were made of leather and oil or bone and spit?
4. see a shrink.

Climate change must be real
Because here in Wyoming we have had everything but the changing of the leaves....this week! Near 70s one day to below freezing the next few days.
We always called it Wyoming spring, but I'm not sure what Mr. Gore thinks it is.

Evaporation
Doesn't evaporation accellerate in higher temperatures? I would think that with true global warming the problem would be too much plant growth and too much water, not the inverse. How can an increase in water (glacial melting) and an increase in temperature result in less water in the atmosphere? If there is more water in the atmosphere, wouldn't there be more rain? If there is more rain, wouldn't it be better for growing foodstuffs?

I think I'm going to buy a Hummer 'cause I'm tired of dragging the hose out to water my lawn.

How many million need do die?
One thing AlGore® NEVER talks about are the COSTS of what he's proposing. In fact, he has been qouted as saying his avoidance of costs is intentional because he knows that if people realized what his proposals really meant, nobody -- NO-BUH-DEE -- would even CONSIDER his "solution".

An article in Science magazine in 2002 (Hoffert et al., "Advanced Technology Paths to Global Climate Stability: Energy for a Greenhouse Planet," Science, November 1, 2002, Vol. 298. no.5595, 981-987 DOI: 10.1125/science.1072357) written by scientists that are FRIENDLY to the notion of AGW stated flat out that there is NO WAY to impliment the changes that the AGW scaremongerers are insisting upon without cataclysmically destroying the world economy, and that this won't change any time in the forseeable future.

One of the posters on this blog quacked "are you willing to bet your grandchildren on" doing nothing to stop AGW?

But the REAL question is would you AGW scaremongerers like to bet YOUR grandchildren based upon science that is not only not certain, but science that is barely understood at all?

If we just up and decide to do what AlGore® et al. want, this will mean not only losing our automobility, but also electricity to heat our homes and even electricity to perform many advanced, energy hungry, medical procedures.

One of the kookiest claims of the AGW scaremongerers is that diseases like maleria will become rampant if AGW is "allowed" to continue (they seem to forget the fact that Russian Siberia ranks among the top of the list for maleria cases, thereby proving that maleria is not a "warm weather" disease, but a disease that thrives where there isn't medicine to fight it), but the irony is that if the AGW crowd gets their wish, maleria will be the LEAST of our worries. Milions of people each year will die of things like the flu, TB, and other diseases that we've long had cures for because we will be unable to produce the medicines to fight these diseases.

Heck, forget about the diseases that we will no longer be able to cure, milions will be dying of starvation because we won't have the energy to produce food.

AlGore® KNOWS all this. He KNOWS that his "solution" will result in millions, if not BILLIONS, of people dying. He KNOWS this, and yet still supports his "solution". One must really wonder whether his "solution" is merely getting rid of any and all energy production, or getting rid of any and all humans.

Lon:
"the idea that 17,200 scientists (where scientist is very loosely defined so that the great majority do not actually have any particular expertise in relevant areas) is significant is silly."

HERE'S WHAT'S SILLY, YOU MORON.

Who are the "scientists" that form the "consensus?"

The vast majority of them have no particular expertise in the relevant areas.

So, why don't we simply poll the climate scientists? You know, the "experts?"

Oh yeah, that's been done--and the results are not very flattering to Gore and his pack of non-climate-"scientists." By a margin of almost 3 to 1, the actual experts in the relevant field believe man's impact on the climate is SLIM TO NONE.

The only way you can tout your "consensus" is by packing your load of scientists with immense numbers of men and women who, while they may be "scientists," have absolutely no idea what they are talking about with regards to climate.

Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot.

If they really want us to listen...
If proponents of "global warming" want us to take their hype seriously, maybe they find a spokesman other than Al Gore. The only positive contribution he makes to society is his ability to cure insomnia.

Consensus
I find it interesting that those who dissent from the Global Warming mindset are accused of also being Holocaust deniers. Therefore, let me interject this:

Currently, the Global Warming issue is based on "Consensus" of (pick a number between 800 and 1700) "Scientists", Hollywood (lots of ed-yoo-ma-kate-ed folks there), and politicians (already lots of hot air).

During the Holocaust (which I do NOT deny), a group of scientists and loudmouthed politicans also came to a consensus (and similarly suppressed any opposition to their findings)....

As has been stated before, any scientific claim must stand the trials of scrutiny and be tested and retested in a non-biased forum before becoming fact. The hypothesis or experiment must be recreated with the same results. The only facts presented by the Global Warming crowd is that they have settled the matter and no further debate will be allowed (nor all findings allowed to be analyzed).


youaretolaugh
Au contraire, the National Geographic article is a biased mishmosh of unsupported assertions ("...Most scientists now fear that the massive amount of carbon dioxide humans are pumping into the air will lead to a catastrophic rise in Earth's temperatures..."), obviously written by a hysterical Gorebot. And the IPCC report is a POLITICAL report, not a rigorous, peer reviewed, science paper.

Try again, you convince no one but your fellow enviroreligionists.

ObservantOne
^^^As has been stated before, any scientific claim must stand the trials of scrutiny and be tested and retested in a non-biased forum before becoming fact. The hypothesis or experiment must be recreated with the same results.^^^^


The trouble here, of course, is that the AGW "theory" is based ENTIRELY on computer models and simulations. In other words, garbage in, garbage out.

ObservantOne
^^^As has been stated before, any scientific claim must stand the trials of scrutiny and be tested and retested in a non-biased forum before becoming fact. The hypothesis or experiment must be recreated with the same results.^^^^


The trouble here, of course, is that the AGW "theory" is based ENTIRELY on computer models and simulations. In other words, garbage in, garbage out.

Questions
Is everyone's panties in a bunch over an increase of one degree over the last one hundred years? Is it going to increase another whole degree over the next one hundred? Is that a lot? I mean here in the People Republic of Kalifornia the temperature is going to be 5 degrees higher than yesterday. Is that GW? Did I cause it? Can I stop it? Can Albore stop it? Help me I'm so hot:~)

misled idiots
The Gore followers should remind us of another environmental nutcase, Rachel Carson. Ms. Carson told the world DDT was killing us all, the result was the banning of the use of DDT worldwide. Now scientists have discovered Ms. Carson's ideas to be false, of course millions in Africa have died, since the ban, from malaria. DDT is the most effective way to kill the malaria bearing mosquitoes. As an added debunking of Ms. Carson, a scientist would precede Ms Carson's appearances by drinking a teaspoon of DDT and showing no adverse affects. The scientist lived to be 84 and died of a heart attack while mountain climbing. Ms. Carson died of cancer at the age of 57.

Ice Ages and Warming Eras
Under Energy & Environment there is a very good article "Is Al Gore Serious". It includes a link to a very interesting and informative paper giving historic facts of warming and cooling.
Here's a link to the paper in case you missed it.

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

consensus
While it is true that science does not lend itself to consensus based findings, and we all know it is ludicrous on its face to say there is a consensus of scientists espousing "x"...why would a reasonable person use a list of 17,200 scientists who are on record against AGW? Sounds like a ....consensus.

Nothing less than oppression...
#7 is proof that the only agenda is to oppress the one nation that has been much more successful than others - a necessity for the UN to implement the one-world government.

Ask the Scientists
Conservative commentary on global warming commentary typically focuses on the so-called "alarmists"---non-scientists who fall into categories that conservatives consider to be suspect---liberals, environmentalists, or show-business activists. They ignore the vast majority of climate scientists who are in basic agreement on global warming and repeatedly highlight the half-dozen-or-so prominent vocal skeptics in the scientific community. All of which suggests the vast capacity of the human mind to ignore contrary evidence when something appears to be threatening a favored ideology. Let me introduce a radical idea----it just may be that the ideology is wrong rather than the science. I suggest looking to real climate scientists for answers (e.g., realclimate.org) and doing some self-education on the CAPITALIST opportunities presented by a transition to a sustainable energy future (e.g., rmi.org).


ECONOMICS IS SCIENCE TOO
From liberalgoodman:
"1: we cannot be sure of anything, but there certainly is a preponderance of evidence."

From Fletch:
"There is a huge positive correlation between prosperity (that measures like Kyoto would undermine) and envronmental improvement."

---> liberalgoodman, you don't say what there is preponderance of evidence for. Is there a preponderance of evidence that we can cost-effectively do anything meaningful to affect the global temperature? Read Fletch's comment above. There is a preponderance of the evidence that efforts being suggested would be counter-productive.

The link between poverty and environmental impact is a lot better the link between man's contribution of CO2 and global temperatures.

This is in the realm of ECONOMIC SCIENCE, which is outside the expertise of the climatologists. Why do climitologists even feel qualified to address this part of the issue? If they don't want me playing in their sandbox, maybe they should stay out of mine.

And maybe they should get to work on figuring out how we're going to ride out the next warming cycle.

If you have a product to sell
...and you can't tell the buyer what is the cost, because you don't know.

And you can't tell the buyer what are the benefits, because you don't know, how do you sell your product?

Fear.


"Can't predict tomorrow's weather"
From question #3: "We can't accurately predict whether it's going to rain or not a week from now."

This is the worst straw-man argument against global warming, so I wish people would stop bringing it up.

In nearly every case, it's *much* easier to predict the behavior of a group of things than it is to predict the behavior of a single individual.

Birds fly south for the winter. Does that mean that no birds ever fly north during the winter? Does it mean they don't stop to take a break, sleep, or find food during their journey? Of course not -- it means that, on average, the behavior of the bird population is predictable -- they fly south in the winter.

If I drop a glass of water, the drops of water will fall down to the ground. If you ask me where a specific drop will fall, I won't be able to tell you. But I'll be able to tell you, on average, that most of the water will end up right next to where the glass dropped.

Predicting what the weather will be like for one day in one specific location is like predicting the behavior of a single bird or a single water droplet. It's hard. But predicting the behavior of a large group -- all the birds, all the droplets of water -- is a lot easier to get right. For the same reason, it's much easier to predict climate (the global conditions of our planet) than it is to predict weather (the specific conditions of a specific place at a specific time).

Global Warming true believers
If AGW is real as you think YOU can be the solution. STOP using anything that creates CO2 and that includes using electricity.
Of course that means you also have to stop exhaling.

Problem solved. Liberals (who think they make up 50% of the population) could lead the way by example. After we bury them AGW should go away according to their AGW theory. This would also solve the liberals other fears (overpopulation and overconsumption of unsustainable resources). It would also eliminate the divisiveness in politics. Hmmm...

Any liberal volunteers?

And now for something...
...completely different.

From Lon:
"Darwin's ideas relatively quickly gained scientific acceptance as evidence poured in confirming it, but there are still people in this country who deny it."

Now Lon, regarding all that "evidence" which poured in, perhaps you are referring in part to the fossil record, which proved...I'm sorry, what did that prove again? Gradualism? In fact, the fossil record proves the opposite of Darwinism. This is why evolutionists haven't accepted "Darwinism" since the early 1900's.

We're talking about how science works here. So I have a question which I challenge any evolutionist to answer:

When (approximately) was Evolution proven, and what was the proof?

Bonus question: When did evolutionists start claiming that evolution was scientifically proven?

Commentary
Johninoregon,

Allow me to point out that there are few vocal skeptics to the issue because those with exceptional experience and credentidals are being censured, threated with their jobs, tenure revoked, etc. Many are afraid to speak out for fear of such draconian reprisals. If the science was so sound, it should be able to withstand examination and (as I've said earlier, be consistantly repeatable). The ones that are truly ignorant are those like Al Gore and Hollywood that do not have the background to investigate the phenomenon for themselves. Many of the 17000 scientists in disagreement have PhDs and other advanced degrees, it's just that they don't receive the press that Al and his buddy Leo D. get on a national stage.

Although a capitalist, I do not look at this as a capitalist/liberal/conservative/etc issue but one of fearmongering for political gain. As a capitalist, I fully intend to identify as many ways of capitalizing on this (like offering carbon credits as Al Gore does, alternative energy development, etc. With as many people that blindly accomodate such "consensus" there has to be a lot of ways to make money off of them. If the science were truly valid, you would have venture capitalists falling all over themselves to take advantage of all the developmental ideas. ... However, we don't see them because they investigate the feasability of things before jumping into the deep end. Only those that are receiving their funding from elsewhere are the biggest proponents of Global
Warming.

Finally, you said that the scientists are in "basic" agreement, whatever "basic" agreement really means. ... Agreement still does not mean it will hold up to un-biased examination. ... Again, a few scientists and loudmouthed politicians were in "agreement" during WWII in Germany. ... Would you then call 6 million Jews deniers too? ... Uh, wait, they weren't given the chance to challenge the "science" of the day either!

hrist, good point
Predicting the next day's weather is a completely different area of study. It's a silly objection and it make all us GW deniers look bad.

The column makes some good points, but these wouldn't be my top 10 questions.

One thought
If Al Gore's predictions are founded in settled science, why have not the big money movers and shakers abandoned Manhattan and other coastal properties?

The NYT is still headquarted there along with ABC, CBS, NBC etc. Banks and insurance companies have made no seismic moves to protect their money from the upcoming catastrophes. These people have the resources to protect their assets.

Why not?---because it is b*llsh*t!!! and they know it.

Answer to PWL
I can only answer for the "conservative" wing. However, you may have mis-catagorized this one. There are plenty of scientists who are politically very liberal, but refuse to be give thier concurrence to a theory that is problematic at best.

First, you ask people who are skeptics to prove a negative. This is absurd. Skeptics do not by definition have to prove anything, since they are not the ones pusing a theory. The skeptics worldwide have found problems with AGW theories; from thier use of Principle Components to construct temp reconstructions, to thier models which fail to, well accurately "model". One thing some "skeptics" (this group is astrophyisicists) have done reasonably well and that is to model certain iostopes (like C14, Berylium-10) in ice cores. B-10 is prevalent during periods of low solar activity, and forms condensation nuculei, and falls to the earth. When solar activity is high, there is a minimum of this isotope in ice; vice versa when solar activity is low. Therefore, you can chart the amount of B-10 isotope for a 1000-2000 year period, and compare it to temp proxies. Astrophyisicists have been able to at least suggest a linkage between our long range climate variability and solar long term sustain solar activity. Here are some unanswered questions that skeptics ask, but that do not get answered:

1)What has been done to account for Urban Heat Islands when making global temperature comparisons? When asked to supply thier data and methods, the AGW proponents refuse.

2)Why are SSTs being used when putting together surface temperature analysis? Most of the earth is made up of water. Also, there is a direct warm bias in current years analysis due to the majority of new surface stations being in warm mid-latitudes or the sub tropics (Africa, Asia). Again, the folks at HadCru, NOAA, and GISS are silent.

3)Why do dendroclimatologists use proxies that are more sensitive to either mositure or carbon fertilization than temperatures? This bias skews tree ring analysis to the warm side, and this bias has been pointed out by several well known botanists. A good example is the Foxtail-Bristlecone of the Sierra Madres range. It shows a warm bias regardless of temp trend.


Hey, Everyone
I just wrote a computer simulation that produces a hockey stick like graph based on this mornings temperature.

Now I need a $2.5 Million grant to add the remaining global warming variables.

Any donations?

STOP IT! STOP IT!
Global warming is NOT global warming. It's just the latest EXCUSE to mast*rbate the Left's hatred of mankind.

New Religion
I am an official heretic from the world's newest religion; Global Warming. They accept the tenets of their new religion on faith alone. Watch The Great Global Warming Swindle at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU to see why I say this with utmost confidence.

I don't know if the global warming advocates realize this, but they are helping prove that there is, in fact, a God. If we puny humans can manipulate the atmosphere (and DNA for that matter) then what is stopping a being with greater intelligence from doing the same thing?

Nice, 2klb of fun
"In the entire history of the earth, there has never been such thing as 'Global Climate Stay-the-Same'!"

Exactly. Someone pointed out, in the days after Gore's little parable to the Senate about the earth having a "fever," that the earth can't have a fever -- it doesn't have a NORMAL temperature.

The unsupported, folkloric correlation of 20th century CO2 emissions with the modern warming period (which started around 1850 at the end of the Little Ice Age, and produced most of the total 0.6 C warming PRIOR to 1940, when the CO2 emissions really took off) has obscured a valid question, probably the most important one we need to ask:

What DO the exponential increases in man's CO2 emissions mean for humans on the planet?

This isn't a left-wing or right-wing question. The answer may be that it means nothing much. There's nothing obvious that makes the issue something to be hysterical about. But there's no question that man has significantly changed the amount of CO2 that is emitted into the atmosphere at this point in the earth's interglacial cycle -- and by the most conservative projections, global CO2 emissions from man will more than triple by 2050.

The AGW hype and hysteria are obscuring the fact that we should answer this question, not because the earth is warming as it always has after a big cool-down, but because the question has independent merit.

Moreover, the AGW refrain has framed the whole issue badly. If we do find that there's a downside to endlessly increasing man-made CO2 emissions (related or not to global temperatures), the AGW advocates have prejudiced the debate by insisting that the only remedy is dramatically curtailing the modern activities of the world's wealthier nations, from nitrogen-fertilized high-yield farming to satisfying the electricity demands of sophisticated medical equipment.

There is no reason, however, a priori, to dismiss the possibility that science and industry can figure out how to turn excess amounts of CO2 to man's advantage. IF -- IF -- the CO2 emissions that will continue to increase, as the global population and its affluence grow, are a problem, then the best use for man's ingenuity is finding a solution that DOESN'T rob us of the amenities of modern life, like plentiful food, cheap and effective transportation, public sanitation, and clean water.

That's the question I want answered. By linking man-made CO2 emissions and the current global warming period -- without supporting evidence -- the effect of AGW advocates is to thwart the answering of this question.

Lynne
I probably should request a few $million more to buy some beach property. Have to measure those rising tides.

Then again I could just use eminent domain to seize the coastal property of our Lib friends. They shouldn't mind - after all it's in the name of AGW and Former VP Gore.

BTW, are "Indulgences" taxed???

Monty dude, your stupid!
absolutely, let's wait and see what happens!!! i garuntee it'll be just like that frickin' ice age garbage back in the 70's....

hrist
How many trillions of particles are in an ounce of air? (This is easy by the way - it's 28 x 6.022 x 10^23).

Okay, now why isn't that group large enough to you?

If you can't predict the behavior of trillions upon trillions of particles when they reach a given town in a week, then how are you going to predict the behavior of those same particles and all the rest of them on the entire planet a hundred years from now?

The law of large numbers that drives prediction is already satisfied with 6.022x10^23, and the law of diminishing returns would suggest that adding more air and extending the forecast out by a factor of 5000 is going to lessen, not increase, your accuracy.

youaretolaugh
Conceded, I misread your post. I even agree that Hawkins has not presented the most well thought out argument. Hawkins could have cited numerous better sources on the (inconvenient) fact that the Sun is the primary engine of warming in the entire Solar System. It doesn't change the fact that you obviously buy into the IPCC political treatise and the faith-based "science" of the hysterical catastrophic global warming crowd. You must be a Democrat.

Joe
It's funny - all that has to happen right now to turn the entire planet into us is a few MORE years of the global cooling that started a few years ago. Then everyone will claim they were never part of the global warming crowd, and to be credible they'll say they were Republicans.

Ahh... the sweet taste of a mortal enemy hanging his fortunes upon the direction of the wind.

But then, when global warming is forgotten, then people will shriek about the global cooling, and they'll be liberals I guarantee it.

Here's a statistics lesson for everybody. I'm going to show you a sequence that you have probably always thought of as being "random":

101010101010101010101010101

But it's not random, is it? It's perfectly ordered - every 1 follows a zero, and every zero follows a 1, even though you do get half ones and half zeros.

Random stuff looks more like this:

111010000111111100001101101

Rather than perfect alteration between zero and one, in random scenarios, you get long "runs" of, in this case, of either "1" or "0"

Now pretend the ones and zeros in the above line each stand for a change in global temperature in a given year: 0 means it got colder, and 1 means it got hotter:

111010000111111100001101101
_____@@@@_*****_@@@@_______

Key:
@=global cooling
*=global warming


As you can see, there are three long runs of either cooling or warming, caused completely by chance.

Imagine that each of these numbers is a decade, not a year. During these long decades where temperature is changing annually only in one direction, liberals fear global cooling or global warming, whereas logical, rational minds roll their eyes and sigh in frustration.

The point
is that you can't take a short trend and infer a long one before you have determined the degree to which the fluctuation is caused by random chance.

With decades of global cooling during the industrial age, and fairly late within that age, there is every reason to believe that, with respect to human industry, global temperature fluctuates randomly.

http://www.sepp.org/

dyerje
Increased CO2 means a better life for everybody - more vegetation, more food, et cetera.

IF CO2 could increase our global temperature as well, that would also help the vegetation because it would increase the rate at which the salt water that covers 75% of the planet would evaporate and turn into fresh water falling on the land. This would also help with droughts and irrigation, which would help if we need to drive our cars on corn.

I WISH "catastrophic" global warming were true, in other words. But I see no reason to think it is.

Higher CO2
Also reduces the rate at which fires spread. So would increased rainfall.

LOL
"AT WHAT POINT will growth become too much? At what point will you say, o.k., we have too many people, we're consuming too many resources, etc?"

After we've terraformed every planet in the universe, and then, needing more room, we use our technology to replicate more mass so that we can turn the entire universe into one giant building, a building that reaches the edge of the universe such that it cannot get any bigger - then we have just enough people and are consuming the right amount of resources.

BrianR
I suggested that a long time ago for the damable homo debate.

Skyhawk
The IPCC and AGW folks are so enamoured with the Hockey Stick that we now see Hockey Sticks in about every study that comes out -whether its paleoclimatology, chemistry, climatology, or enviromental science, you cannot get away from it.

It's gotten so bad, many "skeptics" now dub the AGW people The Hockey Team, or just Team for short. I suggested recently to an acquaintence of mine (he's a geologist in Cali), that these guys should just dispense with the studies, and rubber stamp everything with Hockey Sticks. It would save a lot of money and time. But, that would mean you would be out of 2.5 mil for you own "study".

jerubaal
Hilarious! I love the entire concept of a giant buiding housing the entire galaxy. I would only warn that along the way there will be liberals who will claim that we will have no right to impose our way of life on to other planets.

Monty writes:
"That is why I think that the risk is at least sufficient to take protective steps (i.e. it may not happen, but the risk is there)."

Sort of like GWB and WMD's huh? Cosensus of intelligence services in the world.........

jerubaal
Well, yeah. I know CO2 is a natural fertilizer, and that a warming globe (whether "caused" by CO2 or not) makes additional land available for farming.

But even global warming skeptics have expressed concern about the increase in man-made CO2 emissions (e.g., Fred Singer and Dennis Avery). Not because they hazily think it's causing warming, but because they can't see a way for the globe, even with increased farming, to process all that CO2 effectively.

Don't know if they're right or not. But there's interesting research going on into this very phenomenon. At least some folks think it's enough of a potential problem to be looking for solutions that harvest and utilize (or "bury") CO2 from fossil fuels, beyond letting it be soaked up by plant life. (Don't tell our friend youmakemelaugh2, but Exxon is funding some of this research.)

One thing I'm certain of is that government intervention will produce three things, and three things only:

1. Perpetuation of uneconomic "solutions" (like corn ethanol) on taxpayer life-support.

2. More of the laughable "carbon/pollution credits" shell game (Pay Russia and Africa to Stay in the Stone Age! Causing Slapped Thighs for Decades!).

3. Higher-than-necessary prices for consumers.

liberal"good"man
"Scientists believe the present warming is man made."

Some do. Some don't. From the surveys I've been reading on the subject, it looks like the split it about 60/40.

So, why are the guys on the "60" side trying to pretend the other 40 don't exist? And why are they getting governments to pull funding from the 40%? and getting them fired from their jobs? and issuing death threats? And why are magazines refusing to publish peer reviews of AGW-friendly research?

And -- here's the REAL question -- since the "60" side is doing all these things to stifle the debate, how can we be sure that what science is producing is the truth?

The likelihood is that some percentage of scientists are laying low or altering their findings in order to keep their funding flowing. So 60% "pro-AGW", 40% "AGW-skeptical" may, in fact, be backwards, or even more out of whack. It may be 30% pro, 70% anti. We'll never know until the thuggery stops.

Sorry, pal, your conclusionary pronouncement about what "scientists believe" is just wrong.

Additional question
specifically for Gore...

13) Al, now that you've tasted the Hollywood champagne,which -I'm quite sure- is better than DC's, why have you NOT entered the presidential race? You are so "passionate" about the country- especially when you ran the first time...what happened???

dyerje, 2:37 PM
Well said. The AGW scare does, indeed, obscure the scientific debate.

This was the point of the Petition Project in 1998 (http://www.oism.org/pproject). They attached a survey of global climate research that concluded that pretty much the only thing scientists actually KNOW about the effect increasing CO2 is that it has improved crop yields about 10% worldwide (think: what happens in a greenhouse?)

inkling
Good point, and good link. I've used the oism.org link before, and did note your use of it in your 2:52 AM post. Thought it was worth making the specific point about how AGW advocacy is derailing us, though, as I don't hear it being made on a regular basis.

Bobbyrx
Nice drive-by post. The difference is that Saddam's threat needed to be dealt with or we could have been annilihated within a few years or shorter. Therefore action was required, even if every little detail about every step along the way couldn't be predicted in advance. Global warming is said to cause a catasrophic disaster over a hundred years or longer. A concensus of thinking people would conclude the nature of the evidence against Saddam is far more credible and provable than is the totality of the evidence for man-made, castastrophic global warming.

Of Course There Is Global Warming!
"Because the sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

Chicken Little

Science and emotion
Science deals with the testable. When people get emotionally attached and start hateing people and callingpeople names over a theory I suspect. Is not the theory of global warming ment to perserve life. They why is it when it get challanged people begin to hate the very life they claim to desire to perserve.

Every one should take a break
and watch this
http://wwwyoutube. com/v/ervaMPt4Ha 0&autoplay=1


My thoughts
First, let me say that I am a conservationist. I love nature, love to hike, and love to camp. Furthermore, I live in a small enough town that I bike most places even in the winter, even in Minnesota (except when it is below 0 F). I also use energy efficient fluorescent light bulbs in my house, and I was paying extra to recycle everything I could before it was even widely available. If I could afford it I would love to buy a hybrid car. Furthermore, I would support government funded research into more efficient and clean energy uses that are also economically viable.

I do all of these things for personal economic reasons, and as a Christian to be a good steward of the earth. As a pastor I also encourage others to be wise in the use of the resources of this earth.

Therefore, I am personally doing all I can do with my limited resources and time to conserve the natural world around me. I am also very open to good science that would reasonable show a causal link between human activities and damage to the environment and/or the climate. Furthermore, while I believe capitalism has been the best system for creating wealth, I also recognize that personal greed can cause businesses to overlook the damage to the wider community if they can profit from it.

Having said all that, the research I have seen on man made global warming does not come close to proving a causal link between human activity and rising global temperatures. Perhaps our activities have affected the globe, but the science is not even close to being definite on the issue. There seem to be many factors involved in how and why the climate changes, and it does not seem we are even close to accurately predicting what the future may hold.

Further, as has been stated above, we also don't know what the optimal temperature is, and whether global warming is beneficial or harmful.

My final point is that I do see a specific philosophy driving the policy suggestions of those who are concerned about global warming. This philosophy seems to be more concerned with the environment then people, and seems to be specifically anti-capitalist and anti-growth. Therefore, the policies suggested to "combat" global warming are not just neutral. As a Christian conservationist, I cannot support policies that will at best ignore the consequences of that policy on humans living right now, and at worst will actual be harmful to humans.


HankRearden
Hey Hank. I'm on your side. That's the point I tried to make.

What happened to the GW posters?
I just scrolled through this entire blog and noticed that, with the exception of a few lib diehards, the 'concensus' is that GW is not yet scientifically proven. And given that the hysterical left has not answered any of Hawkins' challenging questions in any proveable way, the debate is over!

Seriously, has anyone seen an intelligent response to any of the 11 questions? The most I have seen is vehement opinions, and dam*ed few of those in the last 12 hours. I think we have shut them up with their most dispised weapon...facts.

Q &A
1.1) The earth has warmed and cooled numerous times in the past and many of those temperature swings have been much greater than anything we've experienced so far. So, since we human beings don't really understand why those temperature swings occurred, how can we be sure that the very mild warming we've seen so far hasn't been caused by normal changes in our climate?

Yes, climate has varied in the past and it has varied for many different reasons, some better understood than others. The present day climate change is very well understood and is different. Simply noting that something happened before without humans does not in any logical way show that humans are not causing it today.

For example, we see in ice core records from Antarctica and Greenland that the world cycled in and out of glacial periods over 120Kyr cycles. The cause for that climate cycle's timing is fairly well understood to be the results of changes in the orbit of the Earth, though the mechanism behind the resulting response has not been conclusively established. These orbital cycles are regular and predictable and they are definately not the cause of today's warming. The other important difference between the glacial-interglacial cycles and today is the rapidity of the current change. The rate of warming is on the order of 10 times faster today than seen in the ice cores.

Such rapid warming on a global scale is very rare in the geological record, and while it may not be unprecedented, there is very strong evidence that whenever such a change has happened, whatever the cause, it was a catastrophic event for the biosphere.

2.2) If greenhouse gasses produced by mankind are behind the roughly one degree increase in temperature over the last century, then why did the global temperature go down from roughly 1940 to 1975 even though mankind's production of greenhouse gasses was skyrocketing during that same time period?

No one supporting the theory of Anthropogenic Global Warming claims that CO2 is the only factor in the ocean-atmosphere climate system. It is complex, responsive on many different timescales, and subject to numerous forcings. AGW only claims that CO2 is the primary driver of the current warming trend as seen over the last 100 years. If you look at the temperature record for the 90's you'll notice a sharp drop in '92, '93 and '94. This is the effect of massive amounts of SO2 ejected into the stratosphere by Mount Pinatubo's eruption. That doesn't mean CO2 took a holiday, it was just temporarily overwhelmed by another opposite forcing.

The situation is similar to the cooling seen in the 40's and 50's. During this period the CO2 warming (a smaller forcing at the time) was temporarily overwhelmed by an increase in human particulates and aerosol pollution. Pollution regulations and improved technology saw a decrease in this different kind of emissions and as the air cleared, the CO2 signal again emerged and took over.

This opposing effect is often referred to as "Global Dimming" and Real Climate has a couple of articles on that effect:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=105
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=110
One emerging concern is that as the pollution causing this effect is gradually cleaned up, we may see even greater greenhouse gas warming.

3. We can't accurately predict whether it's going to rain or not a week from now. We can't accurately predict what the weather will look like next year (Remember that in 2005, they were predicting we'd be hammered with non-stop hurricanes in 2006 because of global warming. It didn't happen). Since that's the case, how can we possibly have any confidence in predictions of what the weather will be like in 50-100 years?

Climate is generally viewed as an average of weather patterns over some meaningful time period. The number of years may vary and there are probably plenty of other finer points to quibble about in there, but the purpose of getting this definition out in front is to be sure we are safe in discounting the very chaotic looking annual flucuations of global mean temperature. This is weather, and one or two anomalous years does not represent a climate shift.

Now, I know that quite a few people believe that climate is a chaotic system, and maybe on some large scale levels, it is. But it is not, in my opinion, chaotic on anything approaching the kinds of time scales humans need to be mindful of. Frankly, I have never heard any objective argument supporting that notion, only arguments that take that as a given. Certainly the march of the seasons is nice and regular, and determined directly by the orbital inclination of the earth. If a large volcanic eruption occurs, the global temperature drops for a few years quite predictably. Diurnal cycles show the very direct influence of insolation. Clearly, if you turn down the sun, the temperature drops. Clearly, if you throw a bunch of SO2 into the stratosphere, the temperature drops. Clearly, if you turn the surface completely white, the temperature drops. And clearly, if you double the amount of an important GHG in the atmosphere, the temperature rises.

What about longer timeframes? One can also look at the glacial/interglacial cycles, not perfectly regular but far from random, and also determined by orbital variations. I will grant you that the data is quite chaotic on the multi-century time scale even as it clearly follows a 120Kyr cycle, but who is to say that had we enough data and understanding, these spikes and dips could not be thoroughly explained by solar infuences, volcanic eruptions, greenhouse gas changes, ice sheet dynamics etc?

The ocean-atmosphere climate system is indeed a complex system and is capable of some surprising behaviours, but I don't see it as chaotic and I see no problem with speaking in a meaningful way about future expectations. Model outputs do in fact produce specific year to year flucuations, flucuations that are not hindcasted well (that is the weather after all), but I don't think anyone is that interested in knowing the exact temperature of any particular year, it is the decadal and century trends that we want to anticipate.

It is the broadly deterministic response to forcings that are of interest, and a chaotic system would not exhibit such determinism.


4. Mars has also been experiencing global warming. Since man can't be a factor on that planet, doesn't it suggest that perhaps a factor other than man, i.e. the sun, is responsible for the warming on both planets?

It's very true that the earth is warmed, for all practical purposes, entirely by solar radiation. So if the temperature is going up or down a reasonable place to find the reason why would be the sun. It turns out that it is more complicated than one might think to detect and measure changes in the amount or type of sunshine reaching the earth. After all, one good cloud passing overhead can cause an instant shiver on an otherwise beautiful, warm day, but not because the sun itself changed. The best way to detect changes in the actual output of the sun versus changes in the radiation reaching the earth's surface because of clouds, smoke, dust or pollution is by taking readings from space.

According to PMOD at the World Radiation Center there has been no increase in solar irradiance since at least 1978 when satellite observations began. This means that for the last thirty years, while the temperature has been rising fastest, the sun has shown no trend.

There has been work on reconstructing past trends in solar irradiance over the last century before satellite records were available. Acording to the Max Plank Institute there has been no increase in solar irradiance since around 1940. This reconstruction does show an increase in the first part of the 20th century that coincides with the warming from around 1900 til the 1940's. This trend in irradiance is responsible for large portion of that trend, together with around the same portion from CO2 forcing. See this chart of the observed trend, the modeled trend and the variations in the major forcings that contributed to 20th century climate.

Real Climate has also done a couple of more detailed discussions both about what the conclusions about solar forcing are, as well as exactly how they were arrived at.

5. Back in the early seventies, the in-vogue scientific theory was that we were in the midst of global cooling that was caused by man. Now, it turns out that there was nothing much behind that except that the global temperature was getting cooler. So, where did they go wrong back in the early seventies and how do we know that we're not making the same type of mistake today in forecasting global warming?

It is true that there were some predictions of an "emminent ice age" in the 1970's but what does this tell us about today's warnings?

A very cursory comparison of then and now reveals a huge difference. Today, you have a widespread scientific consensus supported by national academies and all the major scientific institutions solidy behind the warning that the temperature is rising, anthropogenic CO2 is the cause and the warming will worsen unless we reduce emissions. In the 1970's, there was a book in the popular press, a few articles in popular magazines, and a small amount of scientific speculation based on the recently discovered glacial cycles and the recent slight cooling trend from air pollution blocking the sunlight. No daily headlines. No avalanche of scientific articles. No United Nations treaties and commissions. No G8 summits on the dangers.

There quite simply is no comparison, I'm sure you could find better evidence of a "consensus" of a coming alien invasion.




Sam Allen
Thanks for the perspective of a caring individual who practices his beliefs. Your behavior is a model for the GW zealots. I will bet heavily that you do not buy carbon credits to offset your concience.


Wanda Cut&Paste
I read Wanda's post, and the first thing I noticed was a peculiar disconnect between the subject matter and the discussion (BS-O-Meter:2). Particularly the dates: Hawkins says 1940 to 1975, while Wanda says 40s and 50s. Then I went to Wanda’s blog and found it written in a totally different voice (BS-O-Meter:7). So I grabbed a chunk of Wanda’s post, pasted it into Google, and was led to a document (BS-O-Meter:10) entitled “How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic” by Gregory on illconsidered.blogspot.com:

http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/02/how-to-talk-to-global-warming-sceptic.html

Whoever wrote that obviously had a lot of time on their hands, and it was written precisely so that unintelligent people would use the words as their own in forums like this one. C’mon people. Do your own research; you might learn something once in a while.

1.
http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/01/climate-is-always-changing.html

2.
http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/03/what-about-mid-century-cooling.html

3.
http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/03/chaotic-systems-are-not-predictable.html

4.
http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/04/its-sun-stupid.html

5.
http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/02/they-predicted-cooling-in-1970s.html

Wanda Gag
The sum of your inordinately long discussion seems to be that on the whole, the question of climate is simple, and well-understood. This is the sort of smug condescension we've come to expect from the Left, and must certainly have been delivered with your fingers crossed, hoping nobody who really understands the issues was reading. Sorry, but you were wrong.

We start here: " The present day climate change is very well understood and is different."

Really? Well understood? Hardly. There are dozens of variables that affect global temperatures, and insufficient knowledge about any of them to calculate with certainty their effect. Carbon sinks; ocean currents; ocean salinity; solar flares and sunspots; volcanoes; cloud patterns; polar fluctuations; wind currents; ice cap fluctuations. New effects are being discovered every year, as anomalies are discovered and researched.

But for the sake of sounding as though the matter is simple and settled, you toss around major factors as though they were simple. You write: "Clearly, if you turn down the sun, the temperature drops. Clearly, if you throw a bunch of SO2 into the stratosphere, the temperature drops. Clearly, if you turn the surface completely white, the temperature drops." As though you were lecturing children.

Interestingly, it's exactly this sort of big-picture analysis that makes AGW so completely unbelievable. The sun comes up; the earth gets warm. The sun goes down; the earth cools. So, what's controlling how hot the planet is?

Even more to the point, you write: "And clearly, if you double the amount of an important GHG in the atmosphere, the temperature rises." Except that CO2 is not a significant greenhouse gas compared to others. The most important, causing 95% of the greenhouse effect in the troposphere, is water vapor; and man doesn't affect amospheric water vapor in any significant way. This is why most AGW-friendly researchers IGNORE water vapor in their analysis; because when you included it, the human contribution to overall greenhouse gas, even when we double our CO2 output, is truly miniscule, and cannot POSSIBLY be the cause of a major shift.

You write:
"The other important difference between the glacial-interglacial cycles and today is the rapidity of the current change. The rate of warming is on the order of 10 times faster today than seen in the ice cores." Is that on Mann's thoroughly debunked Hockey Stick scale? His statistical methods were flawed; when corrected by experts in statistics, the sharp rise in temperatures disappeared. See http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=22003a0d-37cc-4399-8bcc-39cd20bed2f6&k=0.

You write: "According to PMOD at the World Radiation Center there has been no increase in solar irradiance since at least 1978 when satellite observations began." That's just wrong. Solar activity always fluctuates; it has an 11-year cycle, an 80-year cycle, and a 150-year cycle, that we know of. And a growing number of scientists are noting the correlation between temperature trends and solar cylces. See http://www.john-daly.com/solar/solar.htm

You write:
"Today, you have a widespread scientific consensus supported by national academies and all the major scientific institutions solidy behind the warning that the temperature is rising, anthropogenic CO2 is the cause and the warming will worsen unless we reduce emissions..."

Not even close. What you have today is a political cabal making sure funding flows to AGW-friendly researchers, and gets cut off from critics. You have critics losing their jobs for failing to agree with AGW politics. You have formerly-respectable publications refusing peer review articles that criticize the politically-correct AGW position. You have death threats against ordinary scientists who don't toe the AGW line. In this atmosphere, how can anybody claim a consensus? How can science even be TRUSTED AT ALL until the thuggery is completely halted?

No, Wanda, your condescension doesn't cut it here, and your simplifications don't stand up to factual scrutiny. Climate is a complex field, and requires genuine scientific scrutiny; and as long as your ilk is breaking kneecaps to enforce your Soviet-style "consensus," (like when 100% of the Soviet voters approved the Party candidates) it will not be understood.

Wanda Gag... ps
I didn't cut and paste like you did, sister. I actually think for myself. You should try it sometime.

More Inconvenient Facts
Quite an interesting column, John, although by the time I got through all the postings, I had to go back and read it again to refresh my memory as to the actual subject.

Some researched thoughts:

The Earth's atmosphere is composed of 21% oxygen, 78% nitrogen, and 1% everything else: water vapor, argon, carbon dioxide, neon, helium, methane [mostly from dinosaurs and cows], hydrogen, nitrous oxide [laughing gas], and ozone. Of course, the amounts vary depending on Earthly location---you know: seas, mountains, plains, deserts, areas of hot air bloviation, 20,000 square foot homes, etc. As a matter of fact, I think there's more helium, methane, and nitrous oxide on the left coast---something has to account for all the airheads out there.

Carbon dioxide makes up about .04% of the atmosphere; that's about 4 parts of carbon dioxide per 2.5 million parts of atmospheric mix. Not much is it? So where is all the "man-made" carbon dioxide going? Well, plants and trees take in carbon dioxide and emit oxygen to add to that of the oceans [about 32% of the total oxygen is produced by our mermaid friends' home.] So, the more carbon dioxide around, the more plant life we'll have about us, and the more oxygen available to we the living and breathing. The CO2 certainly isn't gumming up the atmosphere all that much. Now, that doesn't sound so bad, Liberals, does it?

The Earth is about 5 billion years old. The last 100 years of civilization [the baddie part per the Liberals] are about 1 fifty millionth of the total. And the big problem in GW we're told has been quite "evident" for about 20 years or so [or right after the dire global cooling predictions.] [Film at eleven.] Next, this 100 years is about the same as fewer than 6 seconds over the course of a year. And the "evident" period would be about 2 seconds over the same period. Holy reality Batman!

By the way, over those 5 billion years, the Earth has rarely had oxygen in the atmosphere. In fact, early on there wasn't any at all. Mother Earth can certainly take care of herself in the atmospheric department, can't she? If all the volcanic activity, earthquakes, falling asteroids and such couldn't hurt her over the eons, I doubt that mankind's puny efforts these days will do much damage in the long run.

So Al Gore thinks the Earth has a temperature and needs a doctor? Well, who could be the doctor to Earth? It has to be a doctor who is oh so much greater than the patient, and as big as Al Gore is, he doesn't fit the bill. Well, I know who fits the bill. But, He hasn't taken any action, has He? Perhaps it's because there's no need to? But then, the Liberals won't acknowledge this doctor anyway. Too bad.

And as for climate forecasting, I don't buy it. Weather forecasters [meteorologists] can't even be accurate more than a few hours in advance as far as I'm concerned. They've had egg on their collective face thousands of times over the years. So how can Liberals be any better at forecasting? Divine Providence? [Oh, I am sorry. There can be no Divine Providence in the the Liberal play book.] Yet, there's no uncertainty about their warnings of the coming dire consequences, that's for sure.

Many years ago, a scientist---Werner Heisenberg---developed what is now known as the Heisenberg uncertainty principle: "the more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known in this instant and vice versa."

This is a basic understanding in quantum physics, and "this relationship has profound implications for such fundamental notions as causality and the determination of future behavior of an atomic particle."

So, if the quantum scientists can't determine for sure the future of one particle, how can the Liberals predict the future of trillions upon trillions of particles?

Nah, that's all too rational and logical for the Liberals to deal with. I think I'll go burn coal in the back yard and look for a super-strings for my balloon.

Al Gore Photo Op?
It seems to me, considering the general disdain we members of Townhall have for Al Gore, that the Powers-That-Be in that Great Meeting Hall in Arlington should stop putting Al Gore's picture in these columns and articles.

Why not post a picture of a donkey's behind instead. We'll all know who it represents.

Lynne
I actually write this stuff to help myself stay educated. Wanda, with her "I can impress them by posting someone else's work," is just a foil.

Have a great evening.

Level
The libs want everything equal, The evil USA, dirty capitalists.If only they were like the rest of the world. No lights, no cars , no air conditioning,no creature comforts. no 28000 sq ft homes(opps, sorry Albore your ruling class lib.)

tnmccoy
No, we might mistaken it for Hillary

sloo
Libs only want things equal for others. We of the great unwashed masses should only be too happy to sacrifice our own comfort & security so they (The Enlightened Ones*) can take long hot showers, swim in heated pools, ride in stretch limos, and live in homes that would house & feed half a 3rd world country.
*EO=selfish scumbags

my 2 cents
Global warming and Mike Adams seem to generate lots of mail. Possibly (to save energy of course) Mike should have a go at the issue - or possibly debate Al - and then we could REALLY have a discussion.

afn&tt

global warming consequences

Path to Extinction
FOXNEWS-PANEL TO REPORT SPECIES WILL BE LOST DUE TO GLOBAL WARMING!

From the micro to the macro, from plankton in the oceans to polar bears in the far north and seals in the far south, global warming has begun changing life on Earth, international scientists will report next Friday.

“Changes in climate are now affecting physical and biological systems on every continent,” says a draft obtained by The Associated Press of a report on warming’s impacts, to be issued by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the authoritative U.N. network of 2,000 scientists and more than 100 governments.

In February the panel declared it “very likely” most global warming has been caused by manmade emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

Animal and plant life in the Arctic and Antarctic is undergoing substantial change, scientists say. Rising sea levels elsewhere are damaging coastal wetlands. Warmer waters are bleaching and killing coral reefs, pushing marine species toward the poles, reducing fish populations in African lakes, research finds.

“Hundreds of species have already changed their ranges, and ecosystems are being disrupted,” said University of Michigan ecologist Rosina Bierbaum, former head of the U.S. IPCC delegation. “It is clear that a number of species are going to be lost.”

READ MORE http://www.controlcongress.com

Doctors and second opinions
I note that many of the GW alarmists here try to use the analogy of a doctor telling you something, and that you have to take his word for it, because he's an "expert". I recently complained to my doctor of "shortness of breath". He referred me to a cardiologist. Last Thursday, the cardiologist told me that it looked like, based on the results of my EKG, stress test, and echo-cardiogram, that I had at least 50% blockage in at least one of my coronary arteries. We're talking about MEDICAL SCIENCE here, which is a much more settled area of science than climatology. But the cardiologist did not recommend immediate quadruple-bypass surgery. No! He wanted to do more tests. Friday, I had a heart catheterization, and sure enough, there was no blockage anywhere. Had my doctor been stupid enough to recommend bypass surgery before he knew FOR SURE what was causing my condition, it would have been a tremendous waste of resources (my money and his time), as well as needlessly put my life at risk. Now, of course, I still have shortness of breath, but I know that my heart is not the cause. Maybe, just maybe, it's in my LUNGS. That would seem to make more sense, since lungs are, after all, the organ most commonly associated with breathing.

Can anyone see the parallels between my personal medical story and the global warming debate?

Regards,
Trevor

Breathing
We could solve the problem of CO2 emissions if we got the whole world to hold its breath for an hour.

Question 7 and some of my own
The most pertinent question on this list is Question #7: What's the point of Kyoto and the other band-aids? The only thing they will do is ruin countries economically while producing little to no benefit in combatting Global Warming. We'd be better off letting things be and waiting for newer, cleaner technologies to take off.

One set of questions I have about the whole thing conserns the data that says we are warming in the first place: What is the source of the data before about 1880, when reliable weather reporting was available for much (not all) of the world? Is the older data comparable to thermometer readings and satelite reports? Is it as reliable as modern instrument measurements? Does the older data report temperature exclusively? Or does it also include humidity, rainfall, atmospheric composition and other factors that affect local weather? If the latter, can those factors be reliably filtered out? What's the resolution of the legacy data? Is it possible to say that the temperature in Paris was 2 degrees C at noon on January 5th, 1076? Or is it only possible to estimate a rough guess of an annual average based on a comparitave measurement with known conditions? In other words, are we getting temperatures by the hour, the day, the year, the decade...? If Global Warming is based on average global temperatures what, specifically, is being averaged? What is the standard deviation of the annual averages and how far off are we now? What's the margin for error in the data? And if that is a percentage, is it a percentage of the actual temperature or is it a percentage of the variation from the fixed temperature which I believe is established as the average for 1900 (though I may be mistaken about that.) (In other words is the Margin for Error 3% of the 15 degree C average for year X, or for the -0.3 Degree C variation from the "zero year" temperature? (the above numbers are random but representative of the famous, debunked "hockey Stick" graph.) The believers say that we are warmer now than any time in the last 1000 years. What about times before that (when there were many fewer people and much less industrial polution than today). Human History goes back roughly 6,000 years or so, so what about the other 5,000 years? Is this the warmest period in the whole of human history? What if we include Prehistoric man (Paleolithic man, for example)? Is "now" still the warmest period? How do we know for sure? And Finally, Does past performance guarantee future results?

HJG

Simple Questions
As a non-scientist and a skeptic on all things, there only seem to be two questions here:

1. Is the Earth warming now?

2. If so, what should be done about it?

If 1. is true, then the arguments over whether it's man made or natural are to some extent irrelevant (except as to things that might be done to offset it).

We will simply have to do something about it because even though it may have occurred in the past, we didn't have close to 7 Billion people on the planet in the past and there will obviously be substantial disruptions in all sorts of human settlement patterns and economic activities that will need to be planned for and abated.

freedom&capitalism
As proven by Iraq obviously American freedom and capitalism are not to be used as examples of solutions to problems. I say lets let washington and Kyoto writters decide a better way.

trust a doctor who smokes?
"Similarly, you don't second-guess everything your doctor says." Ahh... but if the doctor tells me that I shouldn't smoke, but he is a chain-smoker himself, I would laugh in his face. Similarly, I laugh in Al Gore's face when he preaches Green but doesn't alter his own energy-junkie life.

Similarly, I would give a lot more credance to Kyoto (and the whole Global Warming argument) if it applied equally to all nations. Why does China & India get a "pass"??? If it's bad for the US to follow Kyoto, then it should be equally bad for China & India. OR... otherwise it seems like yet another way to try to take bolster Third World nations at the expense of the US economy. If it's truly about Global Warming, then Kyoto should remain unbiased to ALL nationsand steer clear of "politics" by singling out certain nations & overlooking others.

Why is it that
the only really pertinant question for mankind in reference to global warming is the one the GW zealots refuse to answer or for that matter even address? Could it possibly be that they cannot answer the question empirically, and therefore must result to bait and switch tactics a la the embryonic stem cell research controversy ( cite "miracles of stem cell research", but neglect to inform that all those miracles are from ADULT stem cells) or carefully cooked, tossed, sliced and diced and then down right LIED about data a la the "2nd hand smoke tragedy"?
the question is simple;

What percentage of the detected, suspected, projected, ( or is it just imagined) global climate change can be tied directly to human activity?
From what information I can gather, it appears to be virtually non existant and insignificant. Therefore the only purpose I can see for such tripe as "Kyoto" is to serve as some world wide "affirmitive action" program to allow "disadvantaged" nations a "hand up" so they can produce more junk then the evil european based, western civilizations ( you know, those terrible WHITE people who somehow, managed to drag a major portion of the worlds population from their stoneage lifestyles to something akin to "enlightened" living in a mere century or two, although there does seem to be an alarming number, members of that odd death cult, who are scrambling with all possible speed back 1400 years or so in thinking, but I digress)
or to fatten the wallets of a select few. This "carbon credit offset" gig is a great one I will admit that, drum up an "emergency", blame it on everyone but themselves, get a sizable percentage of the population to feel "guilty" about it, and then give them a place ( your pocket) to mail their money so they "feel better " about it. (sounds sort of like going on a diet and paying someone else not to eat for you, doesnt do any good but see, you are "doing your part to fight obesity")

only the arrogance of liberalism could allow people to think they are so important and powerful to imagine they can "threaten the existance of planet earth" ( sounds a bit TOOO "Ming the Merciless" for belief) and only a demented and truly self inflated ego maniac like gore could feel he can "save the planet" ( and get richer at the same time!).
Too much time indoors, I am gone to My beach to relish in this temporary "global warming" ( we call it spring down here), and so to feel REALLY good about it I will, with NO concern for My own well being and health, selflessly go forth and gather up an excess of those NASTY and terrible stray ultra violet rays, to do MY part in making the world a safer place for the pale and pallid!

CBP

...the will of the masses is divided by far-reaching distortions and the mass mind is corrupted by a knowledge worse than ignorance because it is false.
Ely Culbertson

Fossil Fuel Alternatives
Whether or not you believe in Global Warming, the reality is that fossil fuels are a limited resource. As they deplete they will inevitably become more and more expensive. Whenever the price of a barrel of oil changes it sends ripples through the economy. Given the unstable relationships with most of the suppliers, I would have thought most Americans would be only too pleased to rid themselves of this dependency.

Assuming Bio-Mass Fuels provide a viable alternative, the USA's huge farming capacity puts it in a very strong position. Of course, like any business, you need to be in the right place at the right time.

Al Gore supporters are ignorant
You prefered this liar in our last election?

Follow the money, Gore benefits financially from the scare. Proven fact.

* First, Gore sets up a company that will invest in other companies that will benefit from global warming alarmism.

* Second, Gore gets some Hollywood types to fund and produce a movie designed to scare the c-c-carbon out of the population.

* Third, Gore travels the world promoting this movie, while pushing the view that a cataclysm is imminent if the world doesn't immediately act.

* Fourth, an adoring media falls for the con hook, line, and sinker. Rather than debunking the flaws in the theories, the media promote every word of it while advancing the concept that Gore's views represent those of an overwhelming majority of scientists.

* Fifth, scared governments and citizens across the globe invest in alternative energy programs driving up the shares of companies Gore's group has already invested in.

* Sixth, Gore and his cronies make billions as they laugh all the way to the bank at the stupidity of their fellow citizens

( Ref: http://newsbusters.org/node/11149 )

If you too are too stupid to see this mans lies are for personal and financial benefit, then it is no wonder you prefered him over Bush.

BTW, Ted Kennedy is still more dangerous with a shot glass than Dick Cheney is with a shot gun.

" Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realizes that it bears a very close resemblence to the first. " - Ronald Regan

More quotes form Al Gore.....
Al Gore Quotations

* "If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."

* "Democrats understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

* "Welcome to President Clinton, Mrs. Clinton, and my fellow astronauts."

* "Mars is essentially in the same orbit... Mars is somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, & water. If there is water we can breathe."

* "The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century."

* "I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy, but that could change."

* "One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president that one word is 'to be prepared'."

* "Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."

* "I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."

* "The future will be better tomorrow."

* "We're going to have the best-educated American people in the world."

* "People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."

* "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made." "We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a *part* of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a *part* of Europe."

* "Public speaking is very easy."

* "I am not part of the problem. I am a Democrat."

* "A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."

* "When I have been asked who caused the riots and the killing in L.A., my answer has been direct & simple: Who is to blame for the riots? The rioters are to blame. Who is to blame for the killings? The killers are to blame."

* "Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it."

* "We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur.

* "For NASA, space is still a high priority."

* "Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."

* "The American people would not want to know of any misquotes that Al Gore may or may not make."

* "We're all capable of mistakes, but I do not care to enlighten you on the mistakes we may or may not have made."

* "It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."

* "[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."

* "As many of you know, I was very instrumental in the founding of the Internet"


Yeah, Right! Sure, we believe you.....

Not Evil Just Wrong
A greater awareness and concern for the world, and our neighbors is nothing to be discouraged, but the truth is often twisted in what the popular media tells listeners, and that creates a misplaced concern and harms real people. Luckily there is a emerging conservative voice. Check out noteviljustwrong.com “Not Evil Just Wrong” is a film that is going to be released this fall. The film is an advocate of people and truth and will cause greater awareness where it needs to be revealed.
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