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Monday, December 08, 2008
John Andrews :: Townhall.com Columnist
Anti-Slavery Then, Pro-Life Now
by John Andrews
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What many call a concern for social issues, I call a passion for protection of the human person. With Democrats on a winning streak, some Republicans are asking why that passion is so strong in our party. Does it even belong in American politics? Thinking the question through, you’ll see that it does and it always has.

Imagine you’re an Irish cop living in a Chicago slum. In the neighborhood you meet Barry and Shelley, a black couple who help the poor. You’re impressed with their efforts to bring the community better jobs, doctors, and schools. But one day you are ordered to raid their home and arrest them.

Barry and Shelley are not criminals. They have harmed no one. But the year is 1858, and a man from Mississippi named Davis claims to own them as property. Federal law requires Illinois to enforce his claim. The black man “has no rights which the white man is bound to respect,” according to a US Supreme Court ruling in 1857.

You see your friends hauled away in chains. A month later you learn that Davis has sold the man into Alabama and taken the wife as his concubine. Their young daughters were put to work as field hands. The older one, rebellious and defiant, dies after a whipping. Mississippi brings no charges.

After witnessing this, if a new political party called for changing the law so it would safeguard the life and liberty of all persons equally, wouldn’t you vote for them? If the same party insisted on strong marriage laws to protect women and children, wouldn’t you support that too?

I have just described the origins of the Republican Party in this country 150 years ago, during the crisis over human slavery in the South and plural marriage in Utah. Both injustices were condemned in the earliest GOP platforms on which Abraham Lincoln and his fellow partisans appealed to Americans’ moral conscience. A passion for protection of the human person is bred in our party’s DNA.

Bring the scenario forward to 1978. You’re an Italian nurse in Denver, mother of a pregnant 17-year-old. The whole family, even the expected child’s father, wants to see it born and either raised or offered for adoption. But your daughter wants the baby aborted.

Coloradans once made their own laws to balance this difficult issue where precious lives are at stake. Now they can’t. A US Supreme Court ruling in 1973 has barred state action, effectively saying that the child in the womb has no rights which adults are bound to respect.

Your long allegiance to the Democratic Party is no help; they favor court-sanctioned abortion on demand. If the Republicans called for letting elected legislators instead of robed judges seek a life-affirming compromise on the issue, wouldn’t you move their way? Millions would and did.

Forward again to 2008. You’re an African-American pastor in Los Angeles. You marched at Selma with Dr. King. You can’t wait to see Obama in the White House. California’s huge Democratic landslide will be partly your doing. But all your faith and common sense tell you marriage means one man and one woman, as voters affirmed by over 60% before the state’s highest court said otherwise last spring.

Now your congregation puts its weight behind Proposition 8, writing traditional marriage into the state constitution, even as most of them also vote for Barack. You’re not about to register Republican, but you’re quietly thankful that America still has one major party with a passion for protection of the human person, including the biological family.

Should the GOP abandon its defense of the unborn and the married moms and dads who await them? Not unless we’re ready to renounce our humanitarian patriarch and founder, Lincoln.

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About The Author
John Andrews is an Independence Institute fellow and former President of the Colorado Senate

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Well Worded
John, you put forward a well worded argument and I couldn't agree more. Currently I am not a U.S. citizen, but when I look at The Republican party I think the one thing it has going for it is its stance on life on moral issues. If you take that away what do you have left?

Mike


No
Allowing gays to marry does nothing to hurt the traditional, biological family.

Preventing gays from marrying won't stop them front entering into longterm loving monogamous relationships or from having families. But denying hteir families and relationships the legal status of marriage will hurt them, and their children. Apparently gay people and their children aren't human persons worthy of your protection, Mr. Andrews?

Allen
Go get your civil union, then please shut the heck up. You're denied nothing except a definition you simply cannot have.

Aren't you even the least bit grateful your mother didn't exercise her legal right to end your life?

Sheesh.

Slavery and Abortion
I do not see the connection; slavery and abortion? Perhaps it is because when writers rely upon slogans like "abortion on demand" my first impression is that they don't have any idea what they are talking about. Both sides of the abortion issue have legitimate arguments, but this is not one of them.

Connection
I frankly see little connection between slavery and anti-abortionism. The only thing I can figure out is that one cannot own a human inside or outside the body. As a person on the middle of the abortion battle, the extremists on both ends make it impossible to find common ground.

Keeping it simple confuses liberals.
Principles, axioms, and facts are apparently too complex for some to grasp.

Well, what did you expect? Nearly half of Obama voters don't know that both houses of Congress are controlled by Democrats. However, Democrats were well coached to believe that Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her front porch. Understandable when you consider that nearly 80% of the media are democrats posing as journalists.

Individualism always
Slavery is a horrible violation of the rights of actual human beings and is therefore evil.

Abortion violates no one's rights, because a fetus is only a potential, not an actual human being. An abortion ban violates the rights of the pregnant woman.

As far as banning gay marriage, that is a violation of the rights of gays, and while that black preacher in California you describe may vote for the ban, he will never vote Republican. If you think you can make your agenda viable by courting minorities, you could not be more mistaken.

Social conservativism is not only a losing agenda; it is a fundamental contradiction to the principle of individualism upon which the country was founded. It may feel "conservative," but that is only an illusion. It is really nothing more than an attempt to impose one's personal moral beliefs derived from religion onto other people.

If ignorance is rampant, we've layed the
groundwork for a knowledge test for voters. Imagine a typical voter quiz: "Which candidate has a pregnant unmarried daughter?"

Yes, I think media coaching would assure us that even those who think there are 57 states could pass with flying colors.

Why should anyone support

same-sex sodomy, much less celebrate it?

Anyone have an answer to that?

To what species does the pre-born human belong?

Is the pre-born human any less a unique member of the species than an adult human?

Those who seek to keep abortion legal cannot use logic or reason to support their desire to allow the killing of innocent and unique human beings to continue. They can only make assertions that are irrational like the fetus is only a potential human being. The do not realize that they are saying the fetus is another kind of being other than human but they have no idea what kind of being that is. Science has no word for the kind of being the pre-born human is except for homo sapien.

Get a clue abortion morons. You do not make sense and your position does not make sense and there is nothing you can do to make it make sense.

Wendy, you cant be serious
Abortion violates no ones rights???. A fetus is only a potential human being ??? How morally relative and bankrupt can you get ?

Really Wendy? How did you come to the conclusion a fetus is only potential, and worth less? Currently a fetus born 3-4 months premature survive. So Wendy, when does life begin? Perhas all of us missed that, so enlighten us.

What evidence do you have Wendy that out right murder is a right, and the life you call potential,is somehow less?.

A right to choose not to get pregnant in the first place was also an option. Of course Wendy you never thought of that point, did you?

Homosexuals have every right any other citizen does. Name one they do not.

Marriage by the way Wendy, is a privilege not a right, and trying to link it to the color of skin failed. Miserably.

If there is any better example of the stupidity of youthful opinions on social issues today, you are the epitomy of it.

still don't get it
And this reasoning is exactly why the GOP has just entered a seriously deep drought. Keep on keeping on, folks!

I get it John
The whole point of your article is that black slaves were viewed as less than human, and now unborn babies are being viewed as less than human.

Being of the black race, 3 generations away from slavery, I understand the sentiment of your article. My race should be in an uproar over how many black babies are aborted each day, month, year.
If there could be a separate vote on this issue, I'm sure we would outlaw it except in case of the mothers health, rape, and incest. We all know how blacks voted in CA on the same sex marriage issue.
But still, having undergone three abortions over 20 years ago while married, I am still haunted by my actions. My mental well being was affected and still is to this day, this is what is kept secret from the general public, the lasting affects of abortions on women.
And now I have joined the fight to end the genocide that is happening in the US and worldwide.
It is Gods will that all should be born that are conceived, then we are birthing a gift from Him to raise and cherish as such.

This article is smoke and mirrors.

Social issues transend party lines.

I don't need party leaders to tell me Slavery is wrong, abortion is wrong, re-defining marriage is wrong.

I need to tell party leaders that Slavery is wrong, abortion is wrong, and re-defining marriage is wrong.

America's Constitutional Shame
The article is right in the argument that abortion is not a social issue, but a protection of human life. That is the main issue of the article. Our founding father understood that life is a gift from God and by definition sacred: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” The killing of the unborn is a violation of God’s will. A nation that chooses death instead of life is bringing disgrace to itself. A human life is not a “choice.” Mere men in black robes acting like if they were God cannot regulate a human life.

The preamble of the Constitution says that one of its purposes is to “secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.” Our posterity is the unborn. However, by killing a human life we are denying to our posterity their rights to enjoy the blessings of freedoms. How many human beings have been denied since Roe v. Wade was made the law of the land?

According to the Right to Life foundation the total number of abortions performed in the U.S. since 1973 equals 48,589,993. American Christians fought slavery and it was defeated. Now it is time to defeat another injustice and inhuman practice the killing of our posterity. Human life is neither a “blob of tissue” nor a “choice.” It is a human being created by God to enjoy the blessings of liberty.


Jeffersonian
The Republican Party doesn't tell me that slavery, abortion, and redefining marriage is wrong. They simply state that they understand the obvious.

No knowledge of history
As a teacher, it has amazed me how little truth is being taught about history. I was surprised to find that the kids I was encountering in high school did NOT know the history of the two parties. For instance- they didn't know that the dems were the party of slavery and secession; they did NOT know that the dems were the party of George Wallace and Bull Connor; they did NOT know that it was the dems behind "Jim Crow" and the KuKluxKlan and "Black Codes"; they did NOT know that it was congrssional dems that fought against civil rights; they did NOT know that the biggest defender of the status quo during the civil rights fight was none other than Albert Gore Senior or that the only member of Congress who was ever a full member of the KKK was Robert Byrd; they did NOT know that many older conservative blacks were republicans because the dems refused to register them and they KNEW the history of the dem party. They knew NONE of this, and some even refused to believe it.

Well, those are historic FACTS, people, and all the revision in the world doesn't change them. The left highjacked the dem party in the 60s, joined forces with the radical blacks and that, somehow, changes their history? Then why do they continue to destroy the families and communities for minorities? And then ignore them until the next election cycle?

The leftist radicals and eugenicists of the past are the same people in the dem party now? the "inconvenient" are not to be tolerated and the minorities are to be quiet. Nothing has changed.

AMEN!
Either a human being has inherent human rights based on nothing but the DNA that shows him/her to be part of the species Homo sapiens sapiens or there is no reason that any human being can't be murdered or enslaved by another other human being who chooses to do so.

Left-liberals cry out "Equality! Equality!" and loudly demand their "Rights" while denying the only possible justification for equality over injustice or inalienable rights instead of privileges granted at the whim of the powerful.

Conservative philosophy is a self-consistent whole founded on the basic principle that the worth of human beings depends on nothing but their humanity.

Left-liberal philosophy is wildly self-contradictory and founded on nothing more than the idea that people should be able to indulge their every whim without any regard to how it affects other individuals or society as a whole.

Morning After Pill or Abortion Pill?
RU-486. What can we agree on regarding its usage. Is it in the same category as abortion? Perhaps less hyperbole on this issue would reduce the medical procedure of abortion.

Good points all...
... though I would quibble with his tale from 1858. One of the badly handled aspects of ending slavery was our failure to compensate slave owners for their losses. The "Davis" in the analogy may have been a boo-hiss villian, but he had legitimate property rights. A national manumission policy, with payment to the slaveowners for their losses, would have been far wiser, far less costly, and avoided the thousands of Civil War deaths. Whenever anyone talks about "slavery reparations," think about this.

RE: RU-486
Anytime anyone introduces hormones into a human body to bring about bleeding it is possibly life endangering. This is what RU-486 does, and after a woman takes it she is supposed to make a follow-up visit to the physician to make sure that the contents of the uterus have been expelled. How is that not a medical proceedure?

The "morning after" pill also brings on bleeding so that implantation cannot take place. Again we have the hormone issue. Any time the delicate balance of the hormones of the human body are messed with a person's health is at stake.

Robert,
Killing an unborn baby by poisoning it in the womb is just as much an abortion as chopping it up for a D&C is.

Same for the chemicals and implants that turn the mother's womb from a nurturing environment intended to support life into a hostile desert where the newly conceived baby can't implant.

Once conception occurs any outside interference with the natural progress of development towards birth is the murder of an innocent child.

People who do not wish to be 100% responsible for a child for the next 18 years can abstain from having sex or, at the least use, fertility awareness and barrier contraception to reduce the risk to what they deem an acceptable level.

Actions have consequences. Sex makes babies. Those who don't want to accept that reality need to grow up because reality doesn't come with an escape clause.

Murder
Abortion is murder,the mantra of a womans body and her rights, well I have always thought the woman has the right to have sex and use protection or not, that is her choice.The mothers life was always protected,so that mantra is just bunk.

It seems like the Republicans need to be better PR people, and let the citizens know who helped end slavery and what party has did the most for the cause.I am sure it isn't being taught in schools,they seem to have put American history on the back burner,along with many other things.

reply to Robyn
Oh, puh-leeze! Not this tired old story again. Look, the two parties have changed in lots of ways over time. The Democratic Party was not exclusively the province of Southern racists; there were Democrats in other parts of the country, even in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, who were liberals.

The Republican Party did support civil rights in its various platforms from the late 1940s onward, but that Republican Party isn't the one today's conservatives like at all. Moderates and liberals had important roles in the old Republican Party. These are the much-despised RINO, and they, NOT conservatives, were the pro-civil rights Republicans. Real conservatives, like Barry Goldwater, voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act, as did racist Southern Democrats. Finally, don't forget that the racist position in the South was the conservative position, not the liberal position.

As you may (or, given your lack of knoweldge, may not) know, the white South moved into the Republican column because the Democrats became more liberal and got most of the black vote.

Stop deceiving your students!


Rosebud/Aliveinhim
You almost got it all, Rosebud. The message of the column was this:

The whole point of your article is that black slaves were viewed as less than human which was wrong, and now unborn babies are being viewed as less than human which is wrong, but gay people should be viewed as less than human.

Aliveinhim, my state doesn't allow civil unions. I am married, however. My husband and I drove three hours north and had a wonderful marriage ceremony duly and legally performed in Canada, which government recognizes our relationship. I am grateful for the enlightened government of our neighbors to the north. It gravels me that my own fellow citizens enacted consitutional provisions that treat me as less human, less of a person and a citizen, than they are. I am a deserving man, and my marriage is a good one. I won't stop fighting until I have full civil rights in my own country. It will happen in my lifetime.

I am against all abortions unless

That the child in the womb has no rights

There is no child in the womb. It’s not a child until it breathes.

=========

eddie Location: NE
Reply # 10
Date: Dec 8, 2008 - 11:39 PM EST
Why should anyone support same-sex sodomy, much less celebrate it?

Why should anyone support auto racing, much less celebrate it?

My, my, I bet there could be a million lines in this post.

========

I hate to even use the word abortion, because that just brings the lady haters out in full force.

The only time a man (or I should say a male) should mention the word abortion is when the lady he impregnated wants one. The only time a female should mention the word abortion is when she wants one.

I am against all abortions unless the alternative is worse.

You say there is no alternative that is worse than abortion, like being thrown in the trash can, flushed down the toilet, starving to death, being eaten by bugs, and on and on, all those terrible things I don’t want to even think about.

Remember, when a distressed lady is in a dark alley at 3:00 AM, an adoption is no alternative for the trash can.

Allen,
Homosexual perverts are not seen as "less than human" by conservatives. But we refuse to see them as a special case deserving of extra rights either.

Homosexual perverts have the EXACT SAME RIGHTS as every other man and woman in the US has.

ANY PERSON in the US can marry any consenting, adult non-relative of the opposite sex who is not already married to someone else.

NO PERSON in the US can marry anyone who does not consent.

NO PERSON in the US can marry a child.

NO PERSON in the US can marry a close relative.

NO PERSON in the US can marry someone who is already married to someone else.

And, NO PERSON in the US can marry someone of the same sex.

There is no right FOR ANYONE to marry "the person he/she loves" regardless of other conditions. The same rules apply to all, no special rules for anyone. Love isn't even in the criteria.

Meet the conditions, you can marry -- even if you hate each other and only consented because it served some common goal.

Just like I said in my previous post -- left-liberal "thinking" is founded on nothing more than the idea that people should be able to indulge their every whim without any regard to how it affects other individuals or society as a whole.

Jim's been thoroughly debunked before
Still riding that same, tired horse about babies are better off murdered by torture (there's no other word to describe chopping a living baby into pieces for a D&C or corroding his skin and lungs away for a saline abortion), than given a chance to live?

We all know that your pretended concern for the baby is a total fake.

You continually refuses to acknowledge the myriad of options a woman has -- from abstinence to Crisis Pregnancy Centers to the Sanctuary Laws many states have -- that can easily keep her out of that mythical dark alley.

mother of 4
You are wrong. The arguments you make have been rejected by SCOTUS and every state Supreme Court that has considered the issue. Not allowing gays to marry each other is unconstitutional discrimination in violation of the right to marry and the right to equal protection uder the law.

You're not a constitutional scholar. Leave these issues to those who have the training, knowledge, and analytical abilities to make them.

Motherof4 - Your predjudice is showing
If your post had said "homosexuals" instead of "homosexual perverts", then perhaps your points might have been taken seriously. You have prejudged prior to making an argument.

You have never tried to debunk me

Mother of 4 Location: NC
Reply # 28
Date: Dec 9, 2008 - 12:41 PM EST
Subject: Jim's been thoroughly debunked before

You, nor anyone else, has ever debunked what I say about abortions. And as usual, today you didn’t even try, or didn’t read my post.
===========

We all know that your pretended concern for the baby is a total fake.

How do you know that?

============

You continually refuses to acknowledge the myriad of options a woman has -- from abstinence to Crisis Pregnancy Centers to the Sanctuary Laws many states have -- that can easily keep her out of that mythical dark alley.

I didn’t mention the options of not becoming pregnant, because a not-pregnant lady is not the subject when abortions are being discussed.

==========

What I don’t like are you Lady haters who say you can control the life of someone you have never met, and never will.

I do not mean to compare the procedures, but what would you do if someone said you can not cut your nails, or comb your hair, or have sex with your husband?

I am not comparing the procedures, I am comparing your right to control another human being.

You must not read the news. There are many stories about distressed ladies (which you do not care about at all) having coat hanger abortions, trash cans, and just the other day the news told the story of a lady who claimed she did not know whe was pregnant, had a baby into a toilet.

As she tried to remove it, she tore off a leg. Adoption was not then an option, neither was not having sex in the first place.

Pregnancy is 100% preventable.

Most everyone supports a woman's right to choose even if they don't approve of abortion. Even if they believe that abortion is murder.

Only Liberals think the taxpayers should pay for other peoples abortions as we are currently doing throught planned parenthood.

Allen,
"Constitutional Scholars" have no special rights either. Most especially, they have no right to distort the plain meaning of the words of the document.

Not only is there no "right to marry" at all but equal means EQUAL -- treated exactly like all other people (which I demonstrated is true in my post).

If the Constitution of the United States does not mean EXACTLY what it says -- according to the plain meaning of the words at the time it was written -- then there is no point in having a written constitution at all.

Robert,
What's that phrase left-liberals are so fond of? ...

Speaking truth to power, that's it.

Homosexual acts are a perversion of normal human reproductive activity. It is only one of many types of perversion and abnormality. Pervert alone is too vague (isn't it the homosexual perverts who yell so loud if anyone dares to point out that most pedophiles prey on boys?), so "homosexual pervert" is the precise, correct, TRUTHFUL description of a person who engages in homosexual activity. And even more so for a person who derives his identity from his participation in that perversion.

I don't do political correctness and there is nothing whatsoever "gay" about it anyway.

I call a terrorist a terrorist, not a "militant". I call a drunk a drunk and a druggie a druggie, and don't softpedal either as "substance abusers". I call a pervert a pervert.

If people don't like to hear the truth about what they do they should choose to do something else. Political correctness is nothing but a tool to disguise truth in order to manipulate people into believing lies.

Motherof4-You are too full of yourself.
Excessive pride is a vice not a virtue. Your views are opinion. To state that they are "truth" assumes too much of your opinion. Best to leave truth to the Creator.

jim,
Complete BS. I've got pages of saved Townhall discussions to reference and while you've made post after post after post about unnatural, depraved mothers murdering their babies you've never once acknowledged that women are not robots set on automatic kill from the moment of conception.

Abortion and infanticide are not the only possible options a pregnant woman has. Each one of those depraved murderers could have chosen NOT to kill.

They could have chosen abstinence -- and never have gotten pregnant in the first place.

They could have chosen to love and care for the baby -- the natural result of pregnancy and the means by which mankind perpetuates itself from generation to generation.

They could have chosen to give the baby to its father so that he could love and care for it.

They could have chosen to give the baby up for adoption -- either the old-fashioned "closed" adoption where the mother's identity is kept secret or the modern "open" adoption where a mother has a role in choosing the parents and maintains an agreed upon degree of contact with the baby.

They could have chosen to abandon the baby in a safe place as defined by their state's sanctuary law.

They could have chosen to abandon the baby in a safe place where it could be taken in even if their state does not have a sanctuary law.

No woman ever comes to your mythological dark alley at 3am without having made the DELIBERATE, INTENTIONAL CHOICE to kill -- a choice that she could readily have made otherwise at many times before that moment.

Your entire argument is based on a lie so stubborn that I'm not even writing this for you but rather for anyone reading these comments whom you might be deceiving because their heart reacted before they head thought it through.

Robert,
There are a few species of parthenogenic lizards and insects, where females reproduce without mating. Bacteria reproduce asexually. There are a few species of fish that change sex through their course of life. Earthworms are hermaphroditic with both sexes contained in one individual but when they mate they pair the opposing parts not the same ones.

In no case do members of the same sex pair to reproduce.

Humans reproduce sexually. It takes an adult male and an adult female. All other combinations are abnormal. Abnormal mating is perversion.

I'm not the one trying to make up my own truth here.


and become human again.

Mother of 4 Location: NC
Reply # 36
Date: Dec 9, 2008 - 2:24 PM EST

You still have never even tried to debunk my one and only opinion on abortion, an opinion I have held all my life.

“I am against all abortions unless the alternative is worse.”

I have no argument with any of your comments, they just aren’t complete, until you consider a depressed lady who is on her own, with no other way out, at 3:00AM in the alley with the trash can.

And don’t try to say that doesn’t happen. I agree completely that situation should never happen, but it does.

Again, let’s hear you debunk “I am against all abortions unless the alternative is worse,” and don’t bring up any of your so called alternatives. No caring human can be against my comment.

Wouldn’t you agree that you are against all appendix operations, or pulling teeth, replacing a heart, unless the alternative is worse?

Remember, for both the potential child and the lady, their mental and physical condition at the moment the decision is made, is all that counts. Don’t tell me what could have, what might have been possible earlier.

And also remember, it is none of your business, you can not control the life and the decisions made by someone else. Your daughter is under your “control” for a few years, but if you had a daughter, you know you can’t control each and every minute of her life.

And if she is not your daughter, you have no control.

I hate this discussion, but I hope someone like you will change your hard and fast control position, and become human again.

Gestell
"As you may (or, given your lack of knoweldge, may not) know, the white South moved into the Republican column because the Democrats became more liberal and got most of the black vote."

Your argument is simplistic. Much of the South went for George Wallace in 1968, who was never a Republican. Much of the white South voted for Carter in '76 and for Clinton in '92. Since when are they Republican?

True, Nixon carried every southern state in '72, but he also carried almost every northern state. Does that make them racist?

More reading:
For a young, human rights point of view, you all might be interested in reading my daughter's page:
http://www.gingiedmonds.com

John
)"

jim
"I have no argument with any of your comments, they just aren’t complete, until you consider a depressed lady who is on her own, with no other way out, at 3:00AM in the alley with the trash can."

I've considered her plenty.

I just proved that she had no less than 6 ways out of ever finding herself in that situation. Once she's there its the result of HER OWN CHOICE.

Even more, until she bloodies her hands she still has the option of carrying that baby back out of that alley and either accepting her responsibility as a mother and going to get help for her situation or taking that baby to a safe place to turn it over to someone who will care for it.

The act of killing a baby is equally evil in a mythological dark alley at 3am and in a sterile operating room at high noon.

Your stubborn unwillingness to assign a woman any responsibility for the evil she does makes one wonder if you aren't an abortionist yourself.

You have never even attempted to answer

Mother of 4 Location: NC
Reply # 43
Date: Dec 11, 2008 - 10:05 AM EST

You say: Your stubborn unwillingness to assign a woman any responsibility for the evil she does

Me: I have always held her responsible for what she does, and how she got there. Each of those mistakes were partly her fault, and so is this final decision.

===========

The problem is, you never blame the one mostly at fault. I’ve never experienced it, but from what I read, what I see, and what I have been told over and over, the lady may be responsible for being a PT, based on her dress and actions, but 99% of the time, the idiot is the one who makes the first move. He is the one who checked into the Motel room in advance, expecting to get lucky.

And he is not there to help when he is needed, we leave it all on the distressed young lady. Why don’t you spend your nights patrolling all the alleys in NYC, CHI, LAX and a million other towns in the world.

But back to the beginning. You have never even attempted to answer or criticize my one and only opinion on abortion.

“I am against all abortions unless the alternative is worse.”

Think of your body? What surgical operation could you want or not want for your body, that you will permit someone thousands of miles away, who knows nothing at all of your immediate problems of both a mental and physical nature, force you to take their advice, or rather their threats?

Jim,
If the woman was not raped (and if she was raped I have addressed the rape fallacy elsewhere), she didn't have to get in bed no matter how sleazy and predatory the father was. The more sleazy and more predatory the less excuse she has for agreeing to have sex with him.

There are many life-affirming options available to a woman who finds herself in a crisis pregnancy.

Yet you are right back to your ridiculous assertion that its better for a baby to be tortured to death by an abortionist than to be given up for adoption into a loving home.

There is NO WORSE ALTERNATIVE to being murdered by torture at the behest of the person who should have loved you enough to die in your stead.

One last time

Mother of 4 Location: NC
Reply # 45
Date: Dec 11, 2008 - 7:14 PM EST
Subject: Jim,

You: no matter how sleazy and predatory the father was. The more sleazy and more predatory the less excuse she has for agreeing to have sex with him.

Me: There again, you blame the lady for associating with a “sleazy and predatory” man, but you say nothing about him being “sleazy and predatory.”

You: There are many life-affirming options available to a woman who finds herself in a crisis pregnancy.

Me: None of which are nearby when she needs it most. You talk about what was, I talk about what is.

You: Yet you are right back to your ridiculous assertion that its better for a baby to be tortured to death by an abortionist than to be given up for adoption into a loving home.

Me: I have never heard a definition of the word Torture that would fit your description.

You: There is NO WORSE ALTERNATIVE to being murdered by torture at the behest of the person who should have loved you enough to die in your stead.

Me: I just can not imagine a caring human being who would say that a living woman, maybe the mother of other children, is worth less than a fetus that would be born in questionable circumstances, at best. Next in that life could be hate, starving, eaten by bugs, and on and on.

For you to suggest that a fetus is worth more than a living lady is unspeakable. I know you love to hear that I told the doctor that until my Sweetie was as safe as could be under the circumstances, there was no baby. And I would have killed him if he had done otherwise.

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