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Sunday, March 04, 2007
John Andrews :: Townhall.com Columnist
Anti-Americans Among Us
by John Andrews
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"Excessive, that’s the word. Any European can instantly spot us Americans by our excessiveness. I lived there for years, and I know."

The instructor had asked our discussion group to sum up America in a word, much as St. Paul once cast all Cretians as “liars and beasts.” An affluent-looking man in a jogging suit answered first, scorn in his voice: We are an excessive people.

Americans, he said, consume too much, talk too loud, presume more than we should. Others leveled similar criticisms. America is grossly materialistic. America is overly assertive.

Everyone’s assertiveness so far had been on the side of self-dislike. Aren’t we a generous people as well, the instructor prompted. Now voices chimed in from the other side. Americans are optimistic, innovative, resourceful, religious. We’re spirited and confident. We’re friendly.

Were the boosters entirely right? No. Did the critics have a point? Sure. But on that Sunday here in the land of liberty, the lap of plenty, I was troubled at the sourness toward our country expressed by some of my neighbors. I was struck by the hesitancy of others to admit their patriotic pride. I saw anti-Americanism, the virus from abroad, now infecting the homeland.

Anti-Americanism denies that the United States is a force for good in the world and a noble chapter in human history. It indicts our nation – and its people, you and me – for a dark litany of crimes, flaws, transgressions, and omissions. It ignores America’s virtues and magnifies our deficiencies. It abandons perspective, unleashing envy and ingratitude,

The anti-Americans are like spoiled children. They confuse imperfection with malice, resent what belongs to others, and condemn as abuse any refusal to indulge them – while petulantly demanding avoidance of consequences and continued enjoyment of unearned benefits.

This infantile mindset obviously serves the fanaticism of an Ahmadinejad in Iran, the opportunism of a Chavez in Venezuela, the cynicism of a Putin in Russia, or the chauvinism of a Chirac in France. But the United States is resourceful and generous enough to deal with all those. It helps that we know many of their own people admire America and would love to come here.

Whether we can survive the spread of anti-Americanism among Americans themselves is another question. Disavowal of our country’s fundamental goodness, blindness to the evidence of how many people she has liberally blessed for so long, denial of America’s worthiness to lead the world – these attitudes gaining among our elites do constitute a deadly virus.

The virus infects “citizen of the world” news organizations such as CNN and the New York Times; universities such as Harvard and Stanford; sneering columnists such as Paul Krugman and Garrison Keillor; powerful lobbies such as the ACLU and the NEA teacher union; and of course, politicians such as Congressman John Murtha and Senator John Kerry.

America today sends abroad “a terrible message of duplicity and hypocrisy,” branding us an “international pariah,” Kerry told the World Economic Forum in Switzerland last month. With such talk from the man who came within 130,000 votes of being president, the apologetic ambivalence toward America in my discussion group isn’t surprising.

For many of us, though, the watchword is still “America without apologies, America as it was meant to be.” Our land shines bright even as it strives toward unrealized ideals. Not for us the elite vision of convergence with Europe: borders erased, enterprise stifled, liberty fading, birth rates falling, Islam ascendant, faith censored and secularism supreme.

Millions here, thank God, still have patriot bloodlines and a backbone. Not for us the bile of ingratitude. Not for us the anti-American virus.

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About The Author
John Andrews is an Independence Institute fellow and former President of the Colorado Senate

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Time to bring back
the bumper stickers:

"America - Love It or Leave It!"

Fortunately
the virus hasn't infected the vast heartland; hope it never does; don't think it will in my lifetime.

America
America is a great country. That said, it is unwise to travel through your time here and not recognize our own actions for what they are and were. We are far from perfect. Will never be perfect, That does not keep a thinking person from pursuing it. We do most of our good works because it is in our interest to do so. We rarely let a recipient of our 'gifts' forget it.

Maybe not by constantly dunning them, but by the arrogance we display to the rest of the world. We give the impression that we believe we are the only one who has an answer or can solve a problem.

It is true Millions want to come here, It is also true there are a trillion or six, who do not.

A reply from a European
Dear Mr. Andrews,
the emotion that comes through to me from your column today is one of sadness and loss.

If I may first agree with you on some of your points. Yes, America was (note 'was') a shining light to the rest of the world, even with it's many imperfections.

Talking personally; even through the dark hours of Nixon and Vietnam, of the support for the fascist juntas in South America, through the parallel government times of Oliver North and his henchmen, the ideas of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights shone through the murk. There was optimism and hope brought to millions with the words; "All men are born free...". There was Martin Luther King's, "I had a dream...", a speech that, in it's passion and in it's humanity, touched the hearts and minds of millions of people around the world.

We of us in Europe, who believed that America could help guide the world to a better future, criticised America's mistakes but praised it's ground-rules. We believed in America as a people. We believed that they were different, that they were BETTER than their mistakes.

Sadly, those times are passed. I, (and many friends I discuss it with, see America as a wounded giant being led by stupid, vindictive, short-sighted evil people who's only aim is power, in the worst sense of the word.

We, years ago, demonstrated against secret jails, torture, disappearances, illegal mail and phone taps, judges being fired because they stood up to corrupt regimes We NEVER, not in our darkest fantasies, thought that these things would come to pass in America, (the land of the free) - AND BE TOLERATED BY IT'S CITIZENS and government.

It has become clear to us that the light of the Bill of Rights has been hidden in a dark, dark place.

Since Bush and his cronies came to power America is being run by the NRA°, the oil moguls°°, the faceless Pentagon warmongers. It is being run by men of secrecy°°° and evil who are pis*ing on it's allies, the American people, the American Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the rest of the world.

Yours sincerely,
in sadness,

Steve Hurley

° check out the sad story of Jim Zumbo,
°° who, while making record profits, demand $60 Billion of taxpayers money as compensation for making those profits
°°° 15.6 million documents classified in 2005, nearly double the 2001 number.

A reply from an American traveler
As I travel the world I meet the same basic types both domestically and abroad: America praisers and bashers. I've found a smile, a friendly demeanor and a relatively dispassionate discussion of facts to be the most effective tools in supporting our great nation and defusing the often stereotypical bashing.

Europe
First let me say that I have never been to Europe and never really intend to ,either. I was born in the 40's in New York and remained there ,with side trips to various parts of America, and found most of the greatest people,things and beauties I would ever need in a lifetime ,right there. I felt and feel blessed to live in this wonderful land. I agree with Primus, Love it or Leave it. Just because some are sooooo discontented with America ,does not mean they are right. Europe,and indeed most of the world , DOES owe America and not just money but for our lives and health sacrified. The fact that THEY resent us and we need to defend ourselves from their puerile envy and greed,does not make us the lesser nation. It makes them the inferior. If that (the facts)are too p.c., well, that is just too bad. Some here won't like this because it questions their self-righteousness and pomposity but it is my opinion and free speech, fought for and won by brave Americans. Thank you to them.

Loyal Americans need to defend Homefront
There are two wars, the one overseas (mostly) on terror and the one here against Anti-Americanism and the general attack on the Western Liberal Christian Tradition.

The latter war is the one we are loosing. The latter war is, perhaps, the more critical of the two. We are loosing our ideals to a bunch of spoilt brats. We are loosing our educational traditions to the same bunch of spoilt brats. From the Christmas tree to the Boy Scouts, from family values to the National Guard, we are at risk of loosing our country.

Good article, and a very important issue.

Objectivity ends...
... where political idealogy begins.

For example, our friend from Europe, "LetsAllRelax", opines that the light of the Bill of Rights has been hidden by the influence of America's current leadership.

Unfortunately, the "reality" is so much different than the "rhetoric". The supposed constitutional assaults being hatched by Bush, et-al, pale exponentially when compared to the very real and well-documented suspensions of individual liberty that occurred during WWII under the leadership of America's first socialist president, FDR. But this history seems to be forgotten or given a pass in the debates of the present. I wonder why that is?

Contrary to the opinions of some Europeans, I won't worry about too much about the goodness of America until we have to erect fences and walls to keep our citizens "in" as opposed to keeping illegals "out."

And many Europeans would do well by being a little less focused on America and a little more focused in putting their own houses back in order, starting with recognizing the very real demographic crisis and the slow, but sure Islamofication of their societies.

LetsAllRelax
What you wrote could have been written by me fifteen years ago. What changed my mind was watching the way that academia works. Academia today is dominated by liberals and leftists. Despite that, it is a nasty place. Just the other day, I heard about a screaming match between two women, both of them leftists and feminists. It was over some tiny little thing.

Aside from its nastiness, academia suffers from:

1. Massive amounts of unemployment among Ph.D.s.
2. Exploitation of teaching assistants and the untenured.
3. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Some people are always getting grants, because they were lucky enough to get into the best schools, and some people never get grants. Why is this happening, given that there are so many egalitarians in academia?
4. A hierarchical system that is worse than that of capitalism. If you get a Ph.D. from an ordinary university, your chances of getting a job at Harvard are about zero, no matter how good you are.

In addition, I never thought of leftists as stingy or greedy until I saw them in action in academia. These are the people who are always getting the big grants and who never want the rest of us to get them.

After seeing the bad side of the left, I decided to cut some slack for the conservatives.

Putting their own houses back in order
Unfortunately ,for Europeans, many ,if not most , of their houses are filled with dishonor and disgrace. Rhetorically speaking. I say this as a German-American. Need I say more?
The reason that Roosevelt is so lauded by the media,today, is that he was a Democrat president, same is true of Truman. The Soviet Union rewrote history,or tried to, and look where that landed them. Improvished.
America is still the greatest nation in the world, despite our media/Hollywood and European (is there a difference) naysays. One look at our military and its great service reaffirms that.

Lets all relax
Just another hate America liberal jerk.....
The next time you are attacked and expect us to save your sorry butts I hope these "war mongering" citizens of our Great Democracy tell you "no thanks, we need to sit in our sidewalk cafes and find fault with the way you run your country", as you seem to be doing to us now....
Keep your opinions to yourselves or better yet, you and Kerry can start a pen pal relationship.
Most of the people here in the US don't give a d*** about what you think.

a reply from an American

Lets All Relax: I am forever fascinated by European contempt for America. The reason you've had so much time and freedom to deride my country is due to the fact that we have spent much blood and treasure defending you from external horrors--and those of your own making.

Perhaps if you were forced to defend yourselves, you might be a tad less condescending--and a lot less "relaxed."

LetsAllRelax, et al.
LetsAllRelax(Mr. Hurley):

I believe that the best characterization of your post is already contained in the text of Mr. Andrews' article. You and your tea-drinking friends "confuse imperfection with malice."

I urge you to read the responses of Primus54 and others and, when you next sit down for a collective sniff at the ills of America, reconsider your perspective.

Permit me, however, to at least acknowledge some admiration for your willingness to put your name to your post. It is not something I'm prepared to do. It speaks well of you (assuming that is a real name).

education in America
My husband is also a Ph.D. and we agree wholeheartedly concerning education. The "profession" of teaching doesn't exist. Academia, in practice, is just the opposite of what it preaches. It is an elitist, close-minded,non-competitive monopoly of leftists propagandists who allow no dissent.These are my husband's feelings after 40 years in the classroom.

An answer to Primus54
Re: And many Europeans would do well by being a little less focused on America and a little more focused in putting their own houses back in order...

And yes, there were fences erected in Europe to keep people in. And yes, we do have our own problems. But this article wasn't about those themes.

The article by Mr. Andrews, by partly focusing on European opinion of the USA, invites discussion. Nowhere does he say, as you basically do, "Replies only from those who agree with me, please".

I tried, politely, to explain where some of this despair - note, NOT anti-Americanism - comes from.

For many years I defended America and it's core values in discussions. But, sadly, I feel I can no longer do that as I believe that America, through the leaders CHOSEN by the electorate and the power they have accumulated, can no longer be trusted to do the right thing.

The losers in this is not so much the rest of the world but the American people themselves, who are allowing the rights fought for for so long to be trampled upon by an administration who sees these same rights as a hindrance to their domination of America.

Will America wake up before AMERICAN citizens start disappearing into secret prison camps? Before the secret wiretapping of millions of AMERICAN citizens? Before there are secret military tribunals? Before defence lawyers are spied upon and vilified as traitors? Before people are held for years without trial or counsel?

Well Primus, it's too late. It's already there. And, as millions did in Eastern Europe, the people support these measures FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY. Orwell must be squirming in his grave.

You no longer have to fear the Russians or the Mad Mullahs but you should fear your own leaders.


Do me a favor
Google "Gordon SInclair" and read his little ontribution , better yet I'll save you the time.
Read what this Canadian had to say:

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Our_Culture/americans.htm

earn & learn or return
reply to Hustler re:
"It is true Millions want to come here, It is also true there are a trillion or six, who do not."

You must be trying to hustle someone... are you kidding with that grandiose hyperbole!? America does FAR AND AWAY more for other nations in real $ and in kind. It is not our fault that our system of commerce and government has fostered the best life for the most people among our populace. My god, Mexico is among the better latin-American countries in per capita wealth, yet they can make 10x as much here for < our minimum wage! THEIR FAILURES ARE NOT OUR FAULT OR RESPONSIBILITY TO ALLEVIATE.

There is no other country that begins to compare in terms of people wanting to come here. When you are far and away the best thing going, some will resent you. We remind the citizens of many countries how their oligarchical, self-addrandizing leaders are raping them. A so-called "poor person" in America lives a lifestyle that is the envy of most people in the world.

There is NO inherent right to come here, to stay here, or to become a citizen here. We are a sovereign nation, albeit Presidente Jorge and the NAU traitors are trying to end that. Being here should be done LEGALLY for NON-citizens! Those who aspire to become citizens should LEARN English and assimilate, or RETURN! Those are NOT the goals of the socialist-backed, ethnocentric disparate: La Raza, LULAC, etc. who truly seek the reconquista. We have NO OBLIGATION WHATSOVER to make sus problemas nuestras problemas!

LetsAllRelax
When your Islamo fascists decide to rise up and start beheading you guys in Europe, which won't be too far into the future judging from what we are seeing here in America, don't call us to defend you from your morass.

Don't ask American to send more of our young men to defend you who have no gratitude, you who bash us as warmongering. Why should our soldiers shed their blood for the EuroAsian nightmare it has become?

Europe has become a socialist, gutless community of leeches. You have no defense of your own so you rely on us and our tax dollars to step in when you get into trouble. I hope the next time whoever our president is says shove it.


Hustler
"we believe we are the only one who has an answer or can solve a problem."

You've got this somewhat skewed. It is not we who think we have all the answers. It is the impotent, leeching, sucking us dry, other countries around the world who do not have the armies and money to solve their own problems. So, they come looking to us to help them out whenever there is a problem.

For me personally, I wish we would just stop helping these people and let them figure their own way. They don't appreciate everything that is sent their way so why bother. I'm sick of it.

To Texaslady and al
Nice to hear from some who believe in Free Speech.
NOWHERE in my replies have I vilified or insulted America. I offered my opinion.

But, as with many loud-mothed, opinionated jerks who visit Townhall.com, you obviosly believe that insults replace intelligent discussion and mental static replaces reason. YOU are doing your country and Mr. Andrews a disservice.
(There should be some spitting replies after this one, but they will just prove my point ;-).

And September12Republican: WHY are you afraid to publish your name in this forum. I thought this was America, a FREE country. Not a place where people HAVE TO HIDE behind pseudonyms. Millions in Europe did that for decades. In the USA I DO expect better, as I am continually being told that I should.

Another ingrate from Europe
I guess we are supposed to thank LetsAllRelax (thre's a clue right there) for trying to defend us all those years until poor him, just too tired out, he can't do it anymore. Sounds to me like he is suffering from Bushbashing syndrome. Our leaders are pissing on our rights and we do nothing? I guess he doesn't really follow our politics since our country is divided over these issues and a venomous, vice a healthy, debate is going on. It's venomous because the leftists, who like people like LetsAllRelax, are bombthrowers. They are name callers and haters. They are exactly the kind of people who would never lift a finger to help Europe out of its soon to come misery. But they would be swift to order our troops, who are red state Americans or they wouldn't have joined the military to begin with. I am a retired Air Force veteran who started her career as a Russian linguist stationed in West Berlin. I spent my entire career defending Europe from the Soviet Union. So, now the Germans hate us too. I think they get irritated about these things because they feel guilty when they bash us, because they know what a huge unpayable debt they owe us. And no one likes to owe anyone gratitude. No good deed goes unpunished. Europe is in a bad way, but the elites there aren't, so they are still free to thumb their noses at America. Let's just wait and see who comes crawling when their heads are in danger of being sawed off. It shouldn't be long now. They spend no money on their own defenses, and they don't believe in anything except their own ease and superiority. God? Never heard of the guy. LetsAllRelax....right to the abbatoir. Ta-Ta, Europe. You have it coming.

europe - leave it
Europe is left with just whining about America since they are no longer powerful players in the world. they are morally corrupt. look at their involvement in the Oil for Food scandal in the UN.

they are not moral! who cares what Europe thinks! think of the murders and genocide committed by these "wonderful people". All of these countries have committed horrible atocities throughout history.

they are simply whiny has-beens. they are no longer the focus of the world and they resent that.

Anti-Americanism
We visit Disney regularly. I've noticed that frequently those with the loudest voices and the rudest behaviour are from the British isles. I wouldn't draw the conclusion that this is typical British behaviour anymore than the Europeans should conclude that all Americans are like those of the tourists that they meet. Perhaps the urge to feel superior colors the views of some antiAmerican ranters.

A thought...
At the end of a few minutes of contemplation my though-stream ended with...

"...the fanatical, Tali-ban style intolerance of the Bush administration to those who express different opinions...

Quite good, I think :-)

to LetsAllRelax
If Bush's only aim were power, the world would be reeling in a way you cannot imagine. Remember Hiroshima? We could do that anytime, anywhere, and there is no one who could stop us. One sudden series of attacks on Beijing, Moscow, Mecca, and London and that would be it. There would be no one with the wherewithal to stop us, or the will, once they got a good look at the four smoking holes where those places used to stand.

But we don't do those things because power is not our goal. And besides, we leave colonizing to the Europeans. You guys are just so good at it. Indeed, it is your own collective guilt that causes you to project onto us. You are the authors of horror for 400 years, and you howl because we tried to clean up the French mess in Vietnam, contain the bloody footprints of the former USSR all over South America and Africa? Honestly, who do you think you are? You are the jaded, cynical courtiers left over from the fall of the ancient regime, and the bones of your kings' victims still litter your crumbling courtyards as you sneer at us.

You say we've supported fascists? We were fighting the spread of international communism, a force that seeks to turn the entire world into a prison. You say our president is secretive? Have you noticed what Chavez, the darling of the Left, is doing to newspapers in his country? You're horrified by our methods of questioning prisoners? You only know about them because we are prosecuting the questioners. Do you know what goes on in the prisons of Cuba, China, North Korea? No, you don't. No one does.

As for p*ssing on our allies, our best allies are the Australians and they are worth the entire passe continent of Europe. You people are nothing but the custodians of the past. We, your escaped colonies, are the future, and we are doing our best to handle power better than you ever did or ever could. Now why don't you go back to exploiting Algerian workers, making secret deals with Middle Eastern dictators, and euthanizing your elderly? We have work to do and your constant nagging is an irritation.

LetsAllRelax
"But, as with many loud-mothed, opinionated jerks who visit Townhall.com, you obviosly believe that insults replace intelligent discussion and mental static replaces reason. YOU are doing your country and Mr. Andrews a disservice.
(There should be some spitting replies after this "one, but they will just prove my point ;-)."

My, my aren't you "above" it all? Sadly to say as you like to couch your vilification of our country, you are an example of the European thought process that gives us here in the States the willies.

You come to this site, criticize America as you wrote:

"We believed in America as a people. We believed that they were different, that they were BETTER than their mistakes.

Sadly, those times are passed. I, (and many friends I discuss it with, see America as a wounded giant being led by stupid, vindictive, short-sighted evil people who's only aim is power, in the worst sense of the word."


And now you expect to go unchallenged. You can write what you want. You have that freedom, but don't expect to win any friends with your narrow-minded lens of America.

I wonder if you and your "friends" have ever spent any time discussing the evil, vindictive regimes of Saddam, Ahmedinejad, the evil in Darfur. I somehow doubt it because from what we hear and see in America is constant criticism of our nation, but no words of condemnation of those who are truly oppressing others around the world.

How many times has a European leader condemned Ahmedinejad for threatening to wipe Israel off the face of the map. I submit to you the silence is deafening.


Mr. LetusallRelax
You wax eloquent...somewhat too much so. I have difficulty believing that you saw our beauty in spite of our warts until President Bush came along.
I can just see it now... sitting in your sidewalk cafes admiring America, worrying about our Bill of Rights.
Right.
Where are you really?

Diamond in the rough
For centuries to come, this great nation will continue to be the greatest nation on earth. As all imperfections are chiseled and buffed away, the brilliance of this jewel will shine for all to see. Emotional opining is fun.

Lets all relax
I hear a lot of your type of self-righteous mewling and pontificating and meddling up here in Kanukistan. Currently the loudest kicking and screaming is being done because the United States has the nerve to demand that Canadians do what the rest of the world has long been required to do: carry a passport when entering their soverign territory.

Canada has quite literally no ability to protect itself militarily from the Korean Grocers Association of Georgia, far less from an actual attack. Their soldiers number 60,000 and they have no equipment and many of them resort to food banks to provide basic sustenance to their families. Canada feels, as Europe does, that it does not need to "waste" its money on self defence because the Low Class Warmongering Bossy Fat Cat Rich People of America will over look all the rudeness, all the nastiness, all the name calling and all the active work of undermining our country when the bombs begin to rain down.

If you, Mr. LetsAllRelax (whose sneering at those who post under 'handles' here makes me wonder if your parents weren't hippies if they in fact named you LetsAllRelax -- that is your true name, right?) are looking to us for another Marshall Plan when the Islamofascists have blown holes in your country the way the Nazis did, prepare to get down and grovel in the dust before you get a dime. Otherwise why don't you recall the bumper sticker from Your Sixties: "Don't like Cops? When you get in trouble, PHONE A HIPPIE!"

American People are great but...
American citizens want freedom, peace, and prosperity. Our government seems to export none of these, entrapping nations into war and playing on our patriotism(Gulf War I), overthrowing popularly elected leaders for despots(Iran), attempted coups over the domestic policies of other nations(Venezuela and Iran), and then our government lies to us, saying they hate our freedom or our music or anything else that has nothing to do with the reason why they want to kill us, because our government has oppressed other nations and mislead the well meaning American public as to their actions. We should not be the world's policemen. People in think tanks whose kids are as far away from the front lines as possible seem to think that our troops were expendable for those little conflicts during the post Cold War era. They are the borders eliminating elitists, Bush and Kerry included who seek erased borders and a North American Union which amounts to treason. Dismissing criticism of the government's actions as Anti Americanism is a joke and completely dishonest.

Impeach Bush for failure to secure our borders and undermining our sovereignty.

Anonymity

LetsAllRelax wrote "And September12Republican: WHY are you afraid to publish your name in this forum. I thought this was America, a FREE country. Not a place where people HAVE TO HIDE behind pseudonyms. Millions in Europe did that for decades. In the USA I DO expect better, as I am continually being told that I should."

Actually, this is not America, it is Townhall. In America, I can go out on street and hold up a banner saying all the bothersome things you've written and not suffer anything other than the much-deserved damage to my reputation. (Contrast that with Europe or Arab country, where you may actually get prosecuted for offensive speech.)

In Townhall, the dialogue is the core purpose. I admire your willingness to put your name out there, but it really is beside the point.

What is more telling is your assessment that the responses that state disagreement with your posts somehow reflect American censorship. Very European of you.

LetsAllRelax
Here in America we are divided between those who think we are heading towards ordinary fascism and those who think we are heading towards Islamofascism. I'm in the latter group, and I would guess that I'm in the majority. However, the media never pay any attention to us and our concerns. I've read many a solemn piece on the op-ed pages echoing what you said above (at 9:24). These people wonder why it is that the they cannot galvanize the rest of America into action.

And the reason they cannot is that they pay no attention to our concerns. We think a little bit of "fascism" is necessary to deal with the greater threat, the slide into Islamofascism. We don't want to see our Constitutions shredded and replaced by shari'a law, yet it seems inevitable. I'm not talking about the near future, but the distant future (say, fifty years from now).

We see people in authority making strange decisions, decisions that favor Muslims for no good reason. An example was the squabble at the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport over Muslim taxi drivers refusing to take passengers who were carrying alcohol. The airport commission asked some Muslim groups what they should do. But why ask them and not the rest of us? Who elected these Muslims? No one. So why do they get to have power over the rest of us? We don't even know if these people are devoted to democracy.

This kind of thing goes on constantly both here and in the rest of the West. (Just read jihadwatch and dhimmiwatch.) Australia is the only country that seems really willing to tell Muslims to leave if they don't like our laws (though recently a small town in Canada showed some spine).

Let me remind you that Bush and friends will be gone in a couple years, but the Islamfascists won't.

And let me also add to einahteb's fine post: it was the left that made a formal alliance with the fascists back in 1939. Remember?

Oil Companies' Excessive ? Profits
Let's ALL relax:
and get the facts straight!

"Over the past 25 years, oil companies ([sic]actually it's the consumer who pays all taxes) directly paid or remitted more than $2.2 trillion in taxes, after adjusting for inflation, to federal and state governments—including excise taxes, royalty payments and state and federal corporate income taxes. That amounts to more than three times what they earned in profits during the same period, according to the latest numbers from the Bureau of Economic Analysis and U.S. Department of Energy.

These figures do not include local property taxes, state sales and severance taxes and on-shore royalty payments. "

And according to the Congressional Research Service (CRS), is that the 1980s windfall profits tax depressed the domestic production and extraction industry and furthered our dependence on foreign sources of oil."

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/1168.html
------------
Also from the same website:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/2146.html

"...January 17, 2007

Oil Companies Getting A "Free Ride"?

by Brian Phillips

CNSNews.com reports House lawmakers will attempt to add language to the U.S. Tax Code that will "roll back some tax loopholes and subsidies for oil companies.”

"While the oil companies experience record profits, the federal government has been giving them a free ride," Jeff Rickert, vice president of the Apollo Alliance, charged during a news conference Tuesday.

In the most recent flap over “excessive” profits, ExxonMobil reported paying over $26 Billion in federal, state, and local taxes in the third quarter alone – roughly two and a half times what they made in net profits.

Income taxes: $7.68 billion
Excise taxes: $7.76 billion
All other taxes: $10.79 billion

Total taxes remitted/paid: $26.24 billion

That has to be the most expensive “free ride” in history. "

To "Letsallrelax"
Interesting exchange. To paraphrase you, you used to defend us but we've become such boors that you no longer do.

Interestingly enough, as far as I'm concerned you've just proved the true greatness of the US. I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but there you are.

Through two world wars and many other conflicts, we've ridden to the rescue like the cavalry. In return, we haven't demanded fealty or even thanks or respect. We've done the job, packed up our bags, and gone back home. What we have received has been faint thanks, and loud disrespect. De Gaulle hated us even throughout WW2, and did little to aid us as we freed HIS country. The French have always held us in disdain, with the exception of the folks in the Normandie region. Yet we soldier on.

We defeated Germany and Japan, and went on to rebuild both their countries, asking not one thing in return. And in the case of Germany, getting pretty much what we asked for: nothing but an ongoing commitment of our resources to defend them through NATO, at huge expense to our country, so they could turn their energies to soaking us for Mercedes and Leicas.

So look around, Mr. Relax, and see if it isn't us boorish Americans who afford you the opportunity to sit around in safety and look down your noses at us.

And don't worry. Just like always, next time you guys are jammed up and send out an SOS, we'll ride to your rescue again. Just like always.

LetsAllRelax posts a reply at 9:24
to me... and I quote"

"The losers in this is not so much the rest of the world but the American people themselves, who are allowing the rights fought for for so long to be trampled upon by an administration who sees these same rights as a hindrance to their domination of America.

Will America wake up before AMERICAN citizens start disappearing into secret prison camps? Before the secret wiretapping of millions of AMERICAN citizens? Before there are secret military tribunals? Before defence lawyers are spied upon and vilified as traitors? Before people are held for years without trial or counsel?"
-----------------------------

Jeesh!

Contrary to your assertion, I did not and never would sqelch your right to opine, but I will not allow you to post your "opinions" and assert or imply they are "facts".

You sound like someone watching their favorite diamond falling into a flushing toilet... all is lost, etc., etc., etc...

And yet, you completely ignored my comments about the personal liberties that were suspended during WWII, which included censorship of the press and real threats of treason being leveled against the 4th estate. And that was just a tip of the iceberg... you DO remember Japanese internment camps, right?

How can you... with a straight face and any intellectual honesty look at present day America and conclude that it is NOW that our citizens are in their worst predicament ever regarding our liberties?

Your "facts" sound identical to the oft-repeated talking points of our leftist extremists... who never let a fact get in the way of a good "America bashing"!

Europe stinks!
How would Letsallrelax feel if Americans start saying that about ALL Europeans. The troll should be ignored as not worth the effort. Teaching the ignornant is one thing, trying to teach the indoctrinated is next to impossible. Why waste your valuable time refuting narrowminded hatred?

BigBelly
Funny post :-)

To Turbo
Do not worry, Turbo, I am a war baby who's father fought FOR America . I should have said I was raised to hate the Nazis. They were everything I was taught to despise (by a very brillant man I might add who fought over there against them during WWII) This is a great nation actually made up of freedom loving peoples from various nations so claiming your past does not preclude your present,does it? Anyhow, I honor our military,as my father served while I was a little girl. Thank God for their service so we can banter about who is right and who is wrong. I was raised to love America and I do.

turbo55---My roots :-)
You wrote: Mr. Hurley, You make me hurl with your false claim of being a European. You are a European wannabee...

Born in Ireland, grew up in England, lived im mainland Europe for 20 years, lived in West Africa, Asia, the Middle East and North Africa. Now in my mid fifties. Oh, and studied in the late 70's in America.

And now I have been branded a member of the Axis of Evil because I had the audacity to offer my opinion.

If all you want of people who pass by here is to agree with you then why not just say so in a BIG letterhead or even better, an audio-file in the voice of Darth Vader...

DSSENT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.


Oops...
DISSENT

Europe: good example of a bad example.
Millions died there in the last century. The infection that caused that killing spree still festers in their minds. "They" wrecked their glass house; now they are throwing stones at ours. We in America are not perfect; But, we have the best places of worship to get well in. As long as we don't mess with our religious freedom, America will stay strong. Judge not Europe, least ye be judged!

To Maureen...Europe stinks!
You want nasty, one sided comments about ALL Europeans? Just read through the posts.

Changed comments
I have found my remarks here changed from my original postings to obviously engender debate. I do not appreciate it. I have a mind of my own and changing comments to get "a reaction" is not in my style. Please discontinue this practice,thanks.

Talking to most Americans I find:
No one, NOT ONE - minds wire tapping, email tapping or other forms of "getting the bad guys" that you deem intrusive.
The government listens to my calls to my mom? OK
The government reads the emails to 'lengthen whatever'. ok (NOW they know what I go thru!)
The government looks at my family pictures from walmart? okay (Cute kids, aren't they?)
I Don't give a rat's behind... As long as they catch the islamofascists hiding amongst us!

Do all you Europeans think your gov. is NOT DOING the SAME THING? Oh, right, they DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU!

Those 'secret prisons' and being held without counsel... WHO CARES!

But, you really let the cat out of the bag when you say it is the "CURRENT" administration. Many of the things were going on before Bush, but of course, no liberal will EVER condemn Clinton!

TexasLady was right - P!SS off!!!

A couple of proposals
A couple of points to our European friends:

First point: We Americans have some "catching up" to do. We have been woefully remiss in the study, documentation and debate of the history and international and domestic policies and actions of all European nations for at least the last, oh, fifty years or so. We have also not done our part to study, document and properly debate the social and economic problems of our friends across the pond.(Some Americans seem to think that social and economic problems don't exist in Europe. Imagine that.)We Americans have been far too involved in trying to study, document and debate our own governmental policies, actions and social and economic problems. For this, I apologize.

I propose that, henceforth, we Americans change our ways and give fair and equal time to the study and debate of European history, the international and domestic policies and actions and the social and economic problems of our friends across the pond. Of course, we will need the cooperation of you, our European friends,to do this in the most effective way. You will need to abandon, for the moment, the exclusive focus on the United States. I understand that old habits are hard to break, but this is a golden opportunity for Europeans to help Americans move beyond Eiffel Tower- Buckingham Palace-Berlin Wall-picturesque little villages-castles stereotypes, to get to know the "real" Europe.

We Americans have so much to learn. Please bear with us. Surely an in-depth study and debate will reveal a Europe that has shown the world how to avoid costly wars, pull itself up by its own bootstraps, resolve nuclear (all) disputes with diplomacy, peacefully free repressed peoples from brutal dictators, avoid corrupt politicians and been a model for how to successfully integrate immigrants from former colonies. Give us Americans a chance to better understand YOU. Who knows how that will affect the international debate?

Second point: Since, in your opinion, America is "a wounded giant being led by stupid, vindictive, short-sighted evil people who's only aim is power" (You nailed the new Democratic majority to a T.), it's high time for Europe to be a "shining light to the world". Take a break from America-bashing and LEAD. Show us how to avoid letting our long-established culture be changed by Shar'ia law. Show us how multiculturism is better than the "melting pot". Let the European Union (or ANY individual member) STOP the genocide in the Sudan. SHOW us how "diplomacy" can solve the world's problems even though 3 years of "diplomacy" failed to prevent Iran from moving forward in its nuclear arms program. SHOW us that Europe is now willing to use other non-military means (those handy-dandy economic sanctions) against Iran. "A study of the Iranian parliament confirms: Without European replacement parts and industrial products the Iranian economy would be paralysed within months.")It's time for Europe to literally put its money where its mouth is.


Meanwhile: Which European country shall we examine first?

Lydia, my apologies...
You wrote... "You seem to ignore the nearly infinite number of activist groups dedicated to restoring the traditions of our government and culture".

No, I do not ignore them. I admire then wholeheartedly. But I hear that their voices are muted. That their own government sees them as The Enemy. And THAT is a great and present danger. We in Europe lived with this same disease for decades until the walls crumbled, so maybe we are now more cautious (paranoid) about just brushing it off as a temporary hicup. And maybe, just maybe, we know what we're talking about.

relax
To Let's All Relax:

Your post regarding Nixon, Vietnam,O.North,King etc. demonstrates European ignorance about America. It apppears that you get your information from a left -wing press which slants "news" according to its own political bias. Having lived throught America's "dark" times, as you put it, I totally disagree.

And to Bianca...
...it's high time for Europe to be a "shining light to the world"

I couldn't agree with you more. (Said with a big grin).

PS: am I the only European here? I'm really not responsible for the 360 million of them, honest.

LetsallRelax
"And now I have been branded a member of the Axis of Evil because I had the audacity to offer my opinion"

Laddie, my heart breaks for ye. Poor misunderstood European who comes onto this site, bashes America and doesn't expect anyone to reply.

Dissent? We don't like your opinion. So, live with it. If you think you can write on this site and not expect to get bludgeoned over your comments don't come here. Otherwise, write to your heart's content and continue to get bashed.

Meanwhile, why don't you be the starter as BIANCA
suggested. Tell us all about how Europe is handling their problems all by themselves. Tell us about your great armies in Europe who will be able to put down the Islamic insurrection when it happens. Tell us how you plan to protect yourself from Iran's nukes.



Maureen...
would you disagree that the US supported facist dictatorships in South America and that Oliver North was complicit in funding paramilitaries in Nicaragua that carried out atrocities agaianst innocent civilians whatever the myriad faults of the Sandanistas?
I think 'Lets All Relax' has written a very eloquent treatise of what a lot of the world think about the US at the moment. You may say you don't care which is fair enough but it is a sad truth. I love America and spent six happy years living there but the damage done to its standing in the rest of the world by the current administration is immeasurable.

Why Europe hates America
I've always thought that Europe's loathing of America has its roots all the way back in the late 1800s when America realized it had a history and culture all its own and didn't have to continue to make the "Grand Tour" of Europe and kowtow to its ways and offerings. Add to that her reliance on us in WW I and II and our surpassing her in just about all things economic and cultural and it's not too hard to understand the antipathy: we are an ungrateful child, too independent and arrogant for our (and their) good. Upstart nation be damned! I can't make up my mind whether this is funny or sad.

lets all relax
A note from another European:
This time a grateful refugge of WW2 from -of all places - France.
My parents brought me here to escape the Nazis when France was overrun, and we were welcomed with open arms.
I grew up to understand the differences between the European and American perspectives having returned often to France.
Not long after the war all too many of my contemporaries were already complaining about Americans in exactly the same vein as you have been in your posts. Who is currently president is immaterial to you other than as a convenient target for your bile.
I soon realized that it was just plain envy.
If Americans don't conform to Europe's world view - we are all of the pejorative terms you use against us. Note that I say US- because I am a grateful American.
You sir are unable to get over the fact that we were "over here, over sexed, and over paid".
To further attempt to change your mind about us is a total waste of time- you are just another socialist.
So the simple answer is -UP YOURS

Philippe Sibille

Hypocrisy of the neocons
Anyone who criticize the wrong doings of the Bush junta is called anti-American but at the same time any foreigner who criticizes their country in favor of the Bush adm is held a hero.

Americans who criticize the fascist Bush are NOT Anti-Americans. This label is used to mute the sane voices of the good people of America. We live in a democracy not in a dictatorship. dissent is the highest form of patriotism. We dont hate America, on the contrary, its our love for this country what makes us long for the good o'l days when America was respected and loved by most of the world.

vespanat
So which era was it that you Europeans started hating America? During the Reagan admin since that was the Nicaragua incident.

Or did you start hating us since Bush?

And, don't forget you guys have a quite a history of your own imperialism. Do you recall any of your colonization activities whereby other people were not equal to you?

You have more than plenty skeletons in your own EuroAsian closet. I would suggest you not throw stones while living in a glass house, which by the way is ever closer to being melted down.


So many issues to learn about ...
"einahteb", I can't decide: Which one of your points shall we use as a starting point for our education on Europe? "Custodians of the past"?Colonialism?

Or perhaps this:

"...wire tapping, email tapping or other forms of "getting the bad guys" that you deem intrusive"

Note this from NO PASARAN:

"PARIS, Feb. 19 — European governments are preparing legislation to require companies to keep detailed data about people’s Internet and phone use that goes beyond what the countries will be required to do under a European Union directive.

In Germany, a proposal from the Ministry of Justice would essentially prohibit using false information to create an e-mail account, making the standard Internet practice of creating accounts with pseudonyms illegal. [ ... ]

A draft law in the Netherlands would likewise go further than the European Union requires, in this case by requiring phone companies to save records of a caller’s precise location during an entire mobile phone conversation."





To : all I ate was EXLAX
stay continent just a little longer and save your spew of excrement for common dreams and you will be their new HERO.

http://www.commondreams.org/


prior post
make that refugee - sorry about the typo

Let the relaxing begin!
Mr Hurley, you will be thrilled to know that nothing you apparently think you know about America is true. Relax. Calm down. Really. It's OK.

It seems you haven't spent time in America for about 30 years -- and last time you did, it was in the rarefied academic environment, just about the least representative in terms of how American freedom of thought works, in practice. That might give you pause as you render judgment on "what we've become."

I too have spent significant time in my life living around the world, and sojourning where I didn't live, and one of the handful of things that never changed, regardless of the country or the decade I was in, was this: news of America, as delivered to the rest of the world, presents a wildly distorted picture. I rarely recognized the America I know in the journalism of even the International Herald Tribune.

I did find that the people of each part of the world overlaid their own character and native prejudices on news from America (as everyone does regarding anything foreign). Europeans were inclined, a priori, to find America buffoonish, undisciplined, puritanical, childish, violent, and overbearing. And imagine this -- the "if-it-bleeds-it-leads" news that came to them about the USA fed that inclination, rather than arresting it.

It is simply laughable that you think George W. Bush is moving us toward fascism. Editorial professionals across Europe are high-fiving each other. But actual examples of fascism litter the political landscape of the last century, and they look nothing like America's current leadership.

I notice you don't adduce any specific facts to make your case that we are tobogganing down the slippery slope to fascism -- because there aren't any. If there were, the American press would not have the unmitigated freedom it has to excoriate and undermine the current president, up to and including mendacity, and hiding of the truth. Under fascism, the people could not choose to alter the political face of their Congress, nor

Come back soon. You prove that people really do read European newspapers, and watch European news.

TheShrew
There are Americans here who still believe in America, the flag, and all the good it does around the world. And, we don't care if you don't like the word patriot.

It's your loss. I imagine you are among the America haters.

If you detest our country so much why not move to another one? Dissent is one thing, hatred is another.

Absurd foreign arrogance!
There are no words to express my contempt for the foreigners from NANNY STATES who have let thier brains atrophy while Government does their thinking for them.
They get SUCKERED into paying an International tax on their use of energy. (BTU TAX!)or(Green Tax)
They are too cowardly and/or apathetic to demand personal freedoms in their own Nations yet come here to TH to critique AMERICANS.
NOT ONE of them can cite something in their own Nation that Americans should admire. NOTHING! NADA!

I was born in America, served America in WW2, America is my home and anyone who does not like America does not need anyone's permission to leave.

MyOpine
Well said!

The "muted voices" of "sane Americans"
"Americans who criticize the fascist Bush are NOT Anti-Americans. This label is used to mute the sane voices of the good people of America. We live in a democracy not in a dictatorship."

I find it ironic that in the same sentence that you protest being labeled "anti-American" YOU label Bush "fascist". And you talk about being "muted" while POSTING ON A MESSAGE BOARD!

And I bet you wonder why many don't take you seriously.

Shrew
No. The subject you brought up has been flogged to death on TH by America haters and I'm bored, tired, and sick of it.

Peppermint
If you read my post you will see that I said, and I quote, "I love America". I think at the end of the day it's the almost childlike inabaility to see anything wrong with ones country that many on the right have that is the most worrying. It gives ones leaders carte blanche to carry out any acts however misguided in the belief that they are for the greater good. I fully admit that most European countries have blood on their hands, my country more than most. It doesn't stop me loving it. I just wish some of you chaps would question things a little more.
In the same way liberals assume everything the US does is wrong, a lot of Conservatives seem to think it can only act for the good. Both these premises are patently wrong.

The U.S. and the Balkans crisis
I still remember what happened in 1999 with the Serbia crisis.

The Albanian people were perceived by the West as victims of Serbian aggression. What did Western Europe do to halt that aggression on their own? NOTHING, even though it was happening on their very doorstep. Instead, they demanded that NATO take action.

And when "NATO takes action," that means, as usual, that 95% of the action comes from the United States.

And so it was. President Clinton ordered U.S. stealth bombers to bomb Serbia for 78 days straight till they threw in the towel.

What was the European reaction? Day after day, there were bitter anti-American antiwar protests in the streets; the governments of Britain and other European nations were badly split on the issue; and basically Europe kept wringing its hands while Americans put themselves in harm's way--to once again bail out Europe.

As far as I was concerned, that CRAVEN performance by Europe was proof that they had no right to lecture the U.S. about anything.

I'm still waiting for Europe to admit how screwed up they were about that whole situation.

The Shrew
The Europeans don't give a damn about Nicaragua or Iraq. They aren't going to hate us for any of that. If any of them say so, it's just a cover for less noble reasons.

Anti-Americans love to point to our so-called hypocracies evidenced by our support of dictatorial regimes in the past.

It's called expediency in the interest of defending our international interests, with the threat of international communism being primary in the recent past. All nations have and always will indulge in this kind of expediency.

Most choices made in the lives of individuals and nations are of necessity made between the lesser of evils.

Really, no one should have to point that out to you if you are over the age of 18. And have actually given any thought to the question.

And finally...
Well, as I'm being picked on (poor me, weep, gnash, sulk) I'm off for a cold beer sundowner by the sea.

See y'all.

And remember... As long as people are arguing they ain't shooting.

And finally 2...
SteveL,
what you say about European (in)action in the Balklans is absolutely correct. An episode of shame that, hopefully, Europe has learned from.

Ok, ok, I'm going...

Is my recollection of Nicaragua wrong?
As I recall, Daniel Ortega was not overthrown by the contras, but forced by them to stand for election--then overthrown by the vote of his loving subjects.

If supporting that effort makes Americans bad, I'm as bad as they come.

The self-criticizing Americans...
...Andrews describes is something I run into now and then. This attitude is a result of the left-wing indoctrination inflicted by academics, the MSM and the entertainment industry, and in my experience those who parrot such drivel are almost invariably the shallowest of thinkers. (The inane commentary of leftie bloggers is a continuous reminder of this). They tend to be people who are not quite bright enough to see the narcissistic agenda of the left-wing institutions named above.

Whatever faults we have as Americans, we're still the greatest force for good that has ever existed in human history. It's best just to ignore the small-minded bed-wetters that trash this great republic.

hypocrites among us
"Anti-Americanism denies that the United States is a force for good in the world and a noble chapter in human history." -- Maybe on balance the US has been a force for good, but there are exceptions. -- the trail of tears, supporting brutal dictators around the world, ...


"The anti-Americans are like spoiled children. They confuse imperfection with malice..." -- and you confuse disagreement with disloyalty.

America
America is not a static place in time but an ever changing kaleidascope of people and images, landscapes, both rural and urban, as well as spectacular scenes that are unmatched anywhere on earth. But having lived here since the 30s I can say there is no one experience you can call America. You must accept the good the bad and the ugly and not just paint a picture seen through rose colored glasses. There are more Jeffrey Dalmers than Martin Luther Kings but most Americans are just hard working honest and friendly people. There is the girl next door but also the drug addicted prostitute who might have been the girl next door years before. The CEO in Silicon Valley and the sharecropper in Mississippi have different views of America. The view from atop a glass tower in New York City is much different from under a bridge in a makeshift tent of plastic bags in San Francisco but they are both American experiences. I might have been the professor at the head of a class at one time but I was also the teenager carrying the golf clubs of the Virginian Country Club Babbits who blamed their missed shots on the Jews or on the New Deal, little knowing that a Jew boy was carrying their heavy leather golf bags. People have been deriding ethnic diversity but it is that very diversity that makes America an exciting place, where you can see Kosher Butcher shops with Hebrew letters or McDonalds, or Tavern on the Green, or a Mississippi Paddle wheeler, or a sixteen wheeler, or the Queen Mary, or an Indian Reservation, or a Greek wedding at Diana's in Chicago Greek Town upah, or jazz in a Chicago bar, or a Beat Poetry reading in the Village in New York. You can hear Italians speaking their language in the North End of Boston hey gumba or Lebonese in a shop in Brooklyn. Take away all of the different types of people, the food and the music from many cultures and you might just have some country in Europe.

The Shrew
Our first responsibility and greatest interest is in protecting OUR freedom and Democracy. Other people's come second, I'm sorry to say. But that is the way of a world populated by fallable people.

We haven't become "indignant" about Iran's desire for nuclear weapons. We oppose their freedom to have them as a matter of self interest. And no, they don't have the "right" to nuclear weapons when they have declared their animosity toward us and our ally, Israel. We don't have to check our constitution or check with sny other nation before coming to that conclusion.

Yes, might DOES make right on the international scene. Every nation uses its might to establish and defend its "right". We abandon our responsibilities in this unending conflict at our own peril.

To all EU morons
Now what are the Europeans hollering about? They get togather and loose all their own idenities with the forming of the European Union. All thier money is now Euros, they hold no loyalty to their own countrys. And also Germany still has laws on the books that HITLER put their. NO HOME SCHOOLING FOR THEIR KIDS.Parents go to Jail if they try to teach their kids anything that is not approved by the Government. I thought that we kicked the Sh** out of the Nazis to do away with that Dictatorial thought.You Morons in Europe don't have any rights to complain about the wonderful USA. And also I will give you people some advice, if you were born in Europe and don't like it here get the He** out and go back to where you came from.Especially if you are a gutless,cowerdly Frenchman or Woman.

ProfGene Good Job!
You described America with great elegance.

I believe Europeans are critical of America due to envy.
They envy our strength and our freedoms.
The Swiss Militia Law and compulsory military training is the only thing I see in the ENTIRE WORLD that Americans might envy.
Europe has nothing to boast about and America certainly owes them nothing!

The Shrew
First, you make the mistake of thinking Americans should care what other countries think of us.

Second, you keep insisting there is some necessity for me or anyone to think in absolutist, moralistic terms about our dealings with other countries. Remember what I said about might making right? Your blather about treating other nations as equals, except as it benifits us, might work on Christians who are taught to turn the other cheek, etc, but not on an agnostic pragmatists such as I. Peddle your baloney with someone else.

Shrew
Yeah, I was out for awhile, but not lynching illegals. I was out lynching some of you lefties. That's way more fun.

Not wanting to argue with you is the rational thing to do, not "irrational" as you put it.

I've had enough of yourleftist arguments to last a life time. I don't care to go round and round only to end up in the same deadlocked place.

Now, arguing so that we can all end up with the same conclusion (deadlock) is the epitome of stupidity.

It's like having the same argument over and over with your spouse. Nothing ever gets resolved. So, I leave it to we shall agree to disagree.

LetsAllRelax,TheShrew, et al
I have to admit, this has been amusing. But here's a few responses; I'll try to be brief. To Mr. Hurley:

You assert that the America is "being led by stupid, vindictive, short-sighted evil people who's only aim is power..." That doesn't tell me much except that you can string together a lot of adjectives. Can you--you know... give me some examples? The "evil" moniker, for instance. 'Cause I could spend the rest of my life giving you examples of why the rulers of Iraq, Iran, North Korea deserved President Bush's attribution as the "Axis of Evil." Or how about your accusation that the "Bill of Rights has been hidden in a dark, dark place." What exactly has led you and your mates to that conclussion? All this hyperbole really tells me is that you have an appalling ignorance of both American and British history, a trait you share with most of the American press, and pretty much all of the European press. I suggest you read Andrew Roberts' "A History of the English speaking peoples since 1900." Here's a link for you:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-English-Speaking-Peoples-since/dp/0297850768

As to your reference to America pis*ing on it's (sic) [please see Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style" Chapter 1, pg. 1] allies, you must have read your fellow Brit, Brian Reade in the "Daily Mirror" when he wrote: "Were I a Kerry voter, though, I'd feel deep anger, not only at them returning Bush to power, but for allowing the outside world to lump us all into the same category of mornic muppets. The self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreigner-despisin', non-passport ownin' red-necks, who believe God gave America the biggest d*ck in the world so it could urinate on the rest of us and make their land 'free and strong.'" Since you live in the UK, and have traveled so extensively, I'm sure you can confirm that this sort of thing is daily fare, not just in every British newspaper, radio, and TV punditry, but all through the rest of Europe as well.

Here's another quote from you: "Will America wake up before AMERICAN citizens start disappearing into secret prison camps? Before the secret wiretapping of millions of AMERICAN citizens? Before there are secret military tribunals? Before defence lawyers are spied upon and vilified as traitors? Before people are held for years without trial or counsel?"

Which AMERICAN (can you please stop SCREAMING the word american at me?) citizens have disappeared into secret prison camps? Oh, of course they're *secret* so you can't know, you can only make the accusation; I understand. And millions of AMERICAN citizens wiretapped; really? Millions? Who reads all that stuff? I didn't realize the NSA had that many employees. Am I really supposed to take anything you say seriously after such fatuous remarks as these? And just between us, you make yourself look truly pathetic by sniveling "DISSENT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED," with reference to those who have angrily disagreed with you. Is it really necessary for me to point out that if your quarrel with Mr. Andrews' column were not tolerated, your post would have been deleted by Townhall.com?

Now, to The Shrew:

I don't doubt for a second that the word "patriot" isn't used much by Brits these days, seeing as how the word means, "a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors," especially considering how the British military has been reduced to the pitiful remnant of its former self, as described by Max Boot in a recent article in LA Times:

"The total size of its armed forces has shrunk from 305,800 in 1990 to 195,900 today, leaving it No. 28 in the world, behind Eritrea and Burma. This downsizing has reduced the entire British army (107,000 soldiers) to almost half the size of the U.S. Marine Corps (175,000). Storied regiments such as the Black Watch and the Royal Scots, with histories stretching back centuries, have been eliminated.

"Even worse hit is the Royal Navy, which is at its smallest size since the 1500s. Now, British newspapers report, of the remaining 44 warships, at least 13 and possibly as many as 19 will be mothballed. If these cuts go through, Britain's fleet will be about the same size as those of Indonesia and Turkey and smaller than that of its age-old rival, France."

And since the British parliment obviously sees the funding of ever increasing welfare entitlements as more important than their own military (as they seem to be inversely proportional), it's no wonder Brits don't "fetishise" their flag as Americans do. (Hey, I've got to hand it to you, that was a nifty little contempt-ridden pejoritive you used for the reverence that we American's hold for our flag. Boy, it really endeared your argument to me!)

As for your claim that the United States acted in, "...overthrowing democratically elected governments (in Nicaragua for example)," where did you come up with that one? Are you really that ignorant of such recent history? Daniel Ortega took power over Nicaragua in 1984, then promptly consolidated that power by suspending any further elections, and collectivising property and businesses all over the country.

"Opponents charged that the Sandinistas had manipulated conditions during the election campaign in such a way that, although clean at first sight, the vote was actually rather tainted. The U.S. government of Ronald Reagan shared the opposition's criticisms and further intensified U.S. support for the so-called "Contra" rebels -- a coalition of dissatisfied peasants, former Sandinista allies and Somozistas. The result was a cruel and costly civil war that in 1989 compelled the Sandinistas to accept a peace arrangement negotiated by Costa Rican President Oscar Arias Sanchez.

In the February 1990 elections under the Arias agreement, Ortega and the Sandinistas lost to a right-centrist coalition led by Violeta Barrios de Chamorro. Ortega relinquished the presidency the following April." (from CNN Cold War profile of Daniel Ortega)

So according to you, the Sandinista revolution that ousted Somoza and ended with the election of Ortega was a legitimate "democratically elected government," but the election that Violeta Barrios de Chamorro won against Ortega was an "overthrowing" of that government? How convenient for your argument!

And lastly, I'm weary to the bone of leftist claims that the US supported Saddam Hussein. As best as I can figure this is based totally on one picture, reprinted ad nauseum, of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein during a short diplomatic stop in Iraq in the 80s. The fact is that under Hussein, Iraq was armed by Soviets and the French, and the majority of the chemicals they used for their chemical weapons programs were sold to them by the Germans. The United States had armed Iran, under the Shah. This is why the Iran/Iraq war (besides occupying both of our enemies fighting each other, and therefore not free to create mischief against us) was of such interest to both superpowers: it was a test of Soviet and French made weapons against US made weapons.

I didn't live up to my attempt at brevity, but it was great fun.

One final word to Bianca: God bless you! Your "proposals" made my day.

My final word to all the brits
on this site today. We ousted you Brits as our rulers several centuries ago and we longer care or adhere to anything you have to say or suggest.

We haven't been British subjects for a long, long time now. We don't owe you explanations or apologies for anything.

We live in the great, free United States of America!
And, I'm sure you all wish you did too.

So, shove that up your arses and have a fine day.

The Shrew
enjoying yourself I see.

What puzzles me …
is that so many anti-Americans place Europe on a pedestal. The fact is that through some combination of selfishness and/or lack of faith in the future they do not reproduce. Look at the birth rates. Having children and replacing one’s self occurs at the level of the individual. Europeans are not doing it. At the rate things are going there will not be a *Europe* in a generation or two. It will be Muslim. By their most intimate actions Europeans must not find Western civilization culture worth sustaining. They are not replicating it.

Europeans just recently began hating us?
Not true, in my experience. During my travels throughout Europe in the early 1980s, I encountered more instances of overt, rude, unprovocated anti-Americanism and unveiled contempt from Europeans than not. It's nothing new.

The Shrew
Re-read this exerpt from Don Mitchell's post: "Daniel Ortega took power over Nicaragua in 1984, then promptly consolidated that power by suspending any further elections, and collectivising property and businesses all over the country."

You took advantage of Don's oversight of not clearly stating that Ortega took power in 1984 through ELECTIONS. If you were fair minded while reading his post, you would have noticed his reference to suspending any FURTHER elections, and gotten a clue.

You are the one who is incoherent.

The Europeans
Let's see now. Every time I hear this sort of nonsense from a European, my first question is "What country are you from? One whose azz we kicked, or one whose azz we saved?". Especially when they have to go back as far as 50-60 years in time to find things to complain about (Iran, "the dark days of Nixon", etc, ad nauseam)the US supposedly did wrong.

And no, there are no "secret prisons", no "secret military tribunals", no torture, no "people disappearing", no "secret wiretaps" (if all this is so "secret", how do YOU know about it?), no trampling on the Bill of Rights, or any of the other drivel one hears, whether it be from some woefully ignorant Euroweenie, or an equally ignorant homegrown self-loathing America-hater.

To be sure, this country has made it's share of mistakes, and we have things in our history that are shameful (and God knows, there isn't another nation on this planet that has expended more time and energy in self-flagellation, which continues to this day over things that, in many cases, happened hundreds of years ago).

But I have a real problem with a European, ANY European, who has the unmitigated gall to point fingers of blame at the United States about much of anything. Most especially when the things they cite are just plain lies to start with.

When it comes to, let alone trampling on people's rights, but wholesale murder, butchery, atrocities beyond imagination, AND ALL WITHIN LIVING MEMORY, nobody can hold a candle to Europe. The only entity that can beat Europe on that score are the Communists, at 100,000,000 dead worldwide in the 20th century alone, and even then not by much, since the Communists had their hand in Europe's collective butchery as well.

No, my friend. Don't even think about coming over here and talking about (how does that saying go?) the mote in our eye while ignoring the beam in your own.

BTW, I am most definitely a member of the NRA, and for good reason. I'm not a hunter, but I do know history, including European history. And one message that comes through loud and clear is that a disarmed populace are not citizens of a country, they are subjects. And as that word implies, they are subject to whatever whims are generated by the government (whose agents are the only ones with guns) chooses to impose on them. One of our founders said that government is a dangerous servant and a fearful master, and not only European but all of human history bears this out. Which is why the Second Amendment was put in our Constitution, because the men who wrote it knew well that one day the American people would have need to rise up and, shall we say, "clean house" in the corridors of government, and we would need our weapons to do it.

Now, you all can sit over there across the pond in your socialist enclaves, and snipe at the US all you want. It's no skin off my nose, for the simple reason that most of us don't really give a royal rat's behind what you all think (although as you may have noticed, if you choose to come in here and spout your nonsense, don't expect not to be challenged on it; and note that you were challenged, not "suppressed", which is what would have happened had you gone on any of the leftist sites over here and not said the politically correct things).

Just remember this. The only difference between a Socialist and a Communist is that the Socialist won't automatically shoot you or ship you to a concentration camp if you break one of their multitudinous rules (although being thrown in jail is very likely to occur). And the Socialist will shoot you anyway if you resist too much. And there's not a damned thing you can do about it, since you have already been disarmed. You may very well end up discovering that, say, harsh language will avail you nothing when that government cop or soldier has a gun to your head. And don't be foolish enough to think "it can't happen here". Your continent's recent history proves otherwise...

The Shrew
I'm waiting with baited breath to hear about our "TERRIBLE FOREIGN POLICY". The one you are so ready to tell us about.
Was Clinton's foreign policy good? Must have been Hillary kissing Arafat's wife then. Must have been Madeline Albright toasting Kim on doing away with his Nuclear program "all the while chuckling about the naive Americans".
You "think" Iran only wants nuclear energy, when he has said "Israel needs to blown off the face of the map", along with her "evil" helpmate the US? HOW many countries have we said we should blow off the face of the earth? If anyone deserved it, it was the Arabs when they took 3,000 innocent lives.
Oh, and where was Europe when that happened, did they send mega bucks to help us?
I love England, but what are they doing about the Arabs, you know the home grown ones willing to kill Englands citizens?
I have seen your culture change over the years of my visiting.
I'm busy fighting the Amnesty being foisted on us by our congress, the self same congress who doesn't let us VOTE on whether we want such a thing or not. Sorry, Shrew, if I wanted to be a Latino, I'd move there, but you see, they have different LAWS for us, if we wanted to be a citizen of their country, like not being able to run for office there if not a native born citizen, not being able to own "ocean front property". Different rules for different fools.

Shrew
What proof do you have the Afghans were civilians?

Shrew
I can understand how Radical Islam would want to make war on a free people. I can't understand why you would side with them.
Are you one of those British Muslims?

In your overbearing arrogance you pretend to know much about war.
Tell me about the war where there were no civilian casualties?

Shrew
If you want to compare American Revolutionaries to Iraqi guerillas, you are an utterly lost cause.

The Shrew
Do I have to do all your reading and thinking for you?

Here is another exerpt from Don Mitchell's post: "The result was a cruel and costly civil war that in 1989 compelled the Sandinistas to accept a peace arrangement negotiated by Costa Rican President Oscar Arias Sanchez.

In the February 1990 elections under the Arias agreement, Ortega and the Sandinistas lost to a right-centrist coalition led by Violeta Barrios de Chamorro. Ortega relinquished the presidency the following April."

You get it? Ortega was forced to run again and lost.

Let me know if you need any further help. You'll need someone else to help you across the street, however.

Shrew
You're the one that made the comparison. How about if you explain the similarities between the American war for Independence and what's described by most in the media as an "all-out" civil war between the Shias, Sunnis, and Kurds.

Shrew
You seem oblivious of the fact that the American Homeland has been attacked, 3,000 American civilians have been killed and we are at war.

I think this PC war is far to sanitized as it is.
During WW2 any soldier caught in civilian clothing would be executed.
This PC crap of returning captured "Insergeants" to their nations of origin and they catch the first plane back to Iraq should STOP!
You seem to sympathize with al Qaeda?

LETS ALL RELAX
"For many years I defended America and it's core values in discussions. But, sadly, I feel I can no longer do that as I believe that America, through the leaders CHOSEN by the electorate and the power they have accumulated, can no longer be trusted to do the right thing." Relax says.

Sir i realize that this is your opinion but i wonder how you arrived at that opinion. Have you ever visited the United States? What sources of information on the united states do you use? Please examine those sources to determine the balance of the sources.
Maybe you need to review the rules that we go by in this country. None of the protections that the constitution provides to prevent what you appear to say have or will happen have been implemented. If any large mumber of our elected representatives thought that any of these things have occured then the impeachment proceedings would have begun in ernest. What you have is the oppositite political party throwing everything against the wall to see if anything sticks or helps them regain power.
"The losers in this is not so much the rest of the world but the American people themselves, who are allowing the rights fought for for so long to be trampled upon by an administration who sees these same rights as a hindrance to their domination of America." Relax says: Again your opinion and as others have pointed out it is without basis and you should worry about your own business. Having spent 6 years in Germany over 20 years i have seen how that country is deterioating. I do not worry about it except to push for the removal of all American troops from all of Europe except England.

"Will America wake up before AMERICAN citizens start disappearing into secret prison camps? Before the secret wiretapping of millions of AMERICAN citizens? Before there are secret military tribunals? Before defence lawyers are spied upon and vilified as traitors? Before people are held for years without trial or counsel?" Relax says.

This will not happen because the constitution and our republic has sufficient balances to prevent this. It could happen if our republic is reduced to a socialist country or a pure democratacy. At that point we will have to put up fences to keep people in. The problem now is to accept only those that want to live in a republic and pledge to support it. Others must leave. It will surive and political views is what you are listening too.
If you look at the last 40 years this republic is turning toward conservative politics. We are at the 50-50 point now. Will not be long before the conservative party will run the country for 50 or so years like the liberal side did for 50 years.



Shrew
You didn't answer the question. In a previous post you said:

"Yes, we did kick out the Brits as our rulers. Why should we condemn Iraqui guerillas for trying to throw us out?"

You're implying that Iraqui guerillas fighting American soldiers today are somehow similar to the American revolutionaries who fought for their independence from Britain. You still haven't explained exactly how they're similar.

As far as your last response, you have it a little backwards when you claim that the enormities of 18th century Britain pale in comparison to America in Iraq. The British committed countless atrocities during the 18th century whose scope was limited only because thankfully almost 300 years ago, they didn't have the same technology thay we have today. On the other hand, America is the first nation in the world to develop smart bombs, and other methods in the hopes of limiting unnecessary deaths.




Shrew
Your conspiracy theory dreams are getting the better of you. Cheney assigned all of his Halliburton stock options to a charitable trust a few days before entering the White House. He receives ZERO from Halliburton stock.

http://www.factcheck.org/article261.html

Shrew
You make wild assumptions about things you are ignorant of and badmouth America based upon your overly simplistic presumptions.
Cheney DOES NOT OWN HALIBURTON STOCK!
He had to get rid of it long ago due to conflict of interest. Haliburton is one of ONLY two companies that can do that job. The other company is French!

Rats eating soldiers?
Laying it on that thick is the same as a lie.
The truth of that matter has been on the news for two days.
You sure hate America!
Are you SURE you are not a Mullah of some sort?
You are not trying to set your shoe on fire are you?

Shrew
I don't know who the he** you are and weather you are an American citizen. if you are all your good for is the spilling of LEFTIST GARBAGE and don't give a damn about being Patrotic. When a bunch of Rag Heads attack our country and kill 3000 of our People and have been attacking us for the last 20 years, when you were proble still in your diapers, and trying to learn on the knees of a Liberal good for nothing Hippy about how rotten were are in this country. Weather you were born here or not the saying goes for you and any one of your ilk in this country, if you don't like it here go to another country and see how you get along there with your ideas, how long you would be able to spit the crap out in that country like you have been spreading the LIBERAL garbage here today.If this country is so rotten I don't know why in the he** you are staying here. I don't think that too many people in this country would really care if you left here or not. I don't think that too many people writting on this page would give a tinkers Dam if you left. Maybe your own parents would I don't know and I don't care.

Shrew
Is that the best you can do? Do you think I can't come up with a few isolated examples of wartime atrocities that occurred under other U.S. president? Lincoln? Teddy Roosevelt? Wilson? FDR? JFK? Bad stuff happens in war.The fact is that, overall, the U.S. military goes out of its way to be the nice guy.


go
Letsallrelax, as politely as I can, I request you leave the U.S., go your own nasty way, make friends with all the Muslims now taking over Europe, and please, please don't cry for help from the insensitive, wicked Americans.


Kimberly

You ALMOST made it. That is, getting through a post without an expletive.

Nice try though. You came very close.

Shrew
For someone like you who hates America and our military you seem very concerned about our flag.
Did you run out of flags to burn or are you upset because they will not let you protest at military funerals any more?
Until you can state the reason for Cheney's deferement you have nothing but an empty assertion and to date your assertions have turned out to be %100 BS.

Oh and;
Please do not ask anyone to defend the actions of every single American. That is just a stupid empty argument.

That does seem to be your purpose though, argument ad infinitum without any purpose other than argument.

Shrew
You're not getting the point. Atrocities are committed IN ALL WARS. The U.S. military committed atrocities in WWII; that does not mean our participation in the war was unjustified. Atrocities committed by U.S. military are ISOLATED, and do not represent military overall. Instead of bombing Baghdad into oblivion, we have troops on the ground who are risking their lives everyday and doing their best to limit civilian casualties, as opposed to the supposed "insurgents" who do their best to maximize innocent carnage.

Shrew
I do agree with some of what you have said. I do not think any country has the justification to overthrow a sovereign nation that has not attacked it or is not an imminent threat. I am in fine company in that belief, as the majority of the Founding Fathers thought likewise.

The thing you have to remember when you post here however, is that people are not going to take very kindly to your comments when you say something derogatory about something our public servants are doing, when holding yours, who are doing the same thing, in high regard. Even if we disagree with the current foreign policy, when a foreigner criticizes our country, it's like painting a big red bullseye on yourself. The bull will charge at you.

My advice to you is to find another way to approach what you are attempting to get across.

DS

I would have thought by now that you realized that you have sufficiently identified yourself to the regulars on this post and that we are now skipping past your posts. You are not adding anything of value to the dialogue.

I hope the rest of your weekend goes well.

I see a way to end the war!
The enemy hides behind civilians and our troops hold their fire, so;
Why don't we round up all the anti-war woosies and send them over for our troops to use for human shields and we have a standoff!
The IslamoNazis wouldn't shoot civilians would they?
See? War is over!

Sonny
Thanks for the thought. Im not looking for anybodys response and i'd prefer if they didnt.

There are hundreds of readers who do not post on this website and are looking for a "fair and balanced take on issues".

Shrew
Shrew: so many things to comment on. Lets try this. you said: Live free or die
That attitude is exactly what makes America disliked abroad. And your agument is illogical. If Iran doesn't have the right to nuclear wapons (although I actually said nuclear power) because they have declared their animosity to the US and Israel, then the latter two countries have no right to nuclear weapons as they have shown animosity towards Iran.

My answer: It is not what you have but what you will do with them. We find that the one time that we used this weapon it ended a war and prevented a costly invasion of a country.
Since then us having them has prevented another large war. That is exactly why i say stay in Iraq and if Iran wants to build nukes let then. They will also know that if they attempt to use them their attack will be blowen up before it gets to its target and they will cease to exist a short hour or so afterwords. That stratagy worked with the soviet Union and it will work again. Wait them out they will colapse within like the soviet Union. They can not compete with the greatest country in the world, now or later.
The rest of your comment you provide no basis so i would be arquing with my self.


MyOpine
I have another suggestion... let's send those NEOCONS that orchestrated this war to Iraq and put them on the front lines. What do you bet it'll stop?

Shrew
The Shrew writes: Sunday, March, 04, 2007 8:52 PM
rd
You're not getting the point - the US army has got no right to be there. I ask again - how would you react if a foreign army occupied your home state?

The wonderful United Nations authorized the US army to be in Iraq and the congress also. Throw in a million Iraqis living in the country and wanting to go back home is another reason.
The pictures i saw a couple of months ago showed that a foreign army had erected their flags over part of california. Why we did not wipe them out with a cobra i do not know.

Shrew
There you go with your lies again.
America has not stolen any oil or anything else from Iraq.

I wish there was some way to rid you of your insane delusion that America started this war.
Do you really believe that or is it just another of your lies?

I have far too much respect for England to insult one of your leaders dispite the fact that you COWARDLY attack America's leaders.
If you are not one of the IslamoNazis it is a good bet you are a Communist and that would explain your lack of personal honor!

Shrew
Your question is obvious, stupid and has no bearing on this war.
How anyone FEELS is of interest only to gullible liberals.

How do you feel about being SCAMMED into paying an international "Green Tax"?

Shrew
Let me see now, am I in the service.No I served my time probably Way before you were a sparkle in your Old man's eye. You see I served when we Patrotic,we did not have the Liberal cry baby's all over the place. I served during the Korean Police Conflic so Truman said. If the military would take me and I could pass the physicle I would gladely go and protect my country. You see I would rather have the fighting over there insted of over here. As for fighting over in Afiganistan and Iraq, where the Rag heads of Al Quieda are killing their own Muslims, which is better than our people. As for the thought that I may be a cowered, no I am not I am not a liberal I have fought once and would and will do so again if I have to . But I don't think that the Military will take me at age 75, but if they want me I will gladely go.

Shrew
Back up to your attacks on America's leaders to see an example of your cowardice.

Your act of calling America "THIEF" based upon your asumption of what we might do in the future is somewhat dishonest on your part.

I fear you whining anti-Americans will have much to moan about in the future because Iraq is by no means the end of this war regardles of the outcome.
This war with Radical Islam is a World Wide war that is unlikely to end in this decade.

By the way;
Why is there no Town Hall in England?
It is a money making enterprise.
Or do they regulate enterprise in England?

European Attitudes of the U.S.
My fellow Coloradoan has stated the case correctly. i liven in Europe twice (Germany, then Italy) for a total of 10 years. The 'common man' there isn't so infused with the 'ariticratic' attude of the media and political/business class. I have just read Post War, a History of Europe since 1945, by Tony Junt. Junt is known as a British Liberal but he must be the traditional British Liberal (more libertarian) as his attitde toward the US is clearly positive like Christopher Hitchens. Junt's book answers a lot of my questions about why their attitudes differ from ours: their overwhelming guilt from involvement in so many destructive wars. Example: in France even before the Nazi capitulation local authorities were sentencing thousands for complicity with the Nazi's. Over 5000 french sentenced to death. But, after executing over 1000. they had second thoughts and it all began to fade away.. The US ended WW2 with a clear conscience.. well, its a 800+ pages, quite scholarly. You will see why the Euro' have a 'shades of grey' outlook on everything in contrast to our view. I admit to not understanding why our 'chatteriing' class looks at our nation as the Euro's do...Signing off, Roland Reynolds, email:rlndreynolds@Yahoo.com

Shrew
NO ONE KNOWS how they would react in any stressful situation. Anyone who thinks they do is deluding themself.
Our favorite WW2 disk jocky, Tokyo Rose would often bring up the topic of our wives cheating.
One of my shipmates always used to say he would give the guy a 10 spot and tell him to go buy a good piece.
He did catch his wife in a hotel room, killed the guy, tied his wife to the heater with wire coat hangers, turned it on and cut her with his pocket knife.
You just never know till you face that situation.

Conservative myopia
What an interesting exchange:

letsallrelax writes a sad but eloquent essay on the contrast between America's ideals and its recent performance. Texaslady's response is to stereotype letsallrelax ("Just another hate America liberal jerk..... ") and to tell him, in effect to shut up and go away.

This attitude of righteous denial is, unfortunately, all too typical of today's conservatives. Criticism of American hypocricy and misdeeds is characterized as a lack of patriotism, even when it is meant as constructive criticism. Global warming is dismissed as "junk science" even though it is acknowledged by most of the world's climate scientists. George Bush is accepted as a force for good in the world, long after most of the world has seen him for what he is---a disastrous stain on America's honor.

What is more important---hanging onto a set of beliefs, no matter how much evidence stands in the way, or being honest about what is right in front of your eyes?

jhoninoregon
Do you have any of Al Gore's Carbon Offsets to sell?

I would like to buy $200 worth with my $800 money order. I will send you the money order to deposit if you will send the extra $600 change to my bank in Nigeria?

Shrew
All I can say is that I hope that we don't have to defend our country here, as you have all seen and heard that the rag heads are cowerds, in the fact that they attact only the civilian mostly. Some times the Military, What they are doing now in Iraq is mainly for Propaganda, and blameing our Military for the attacks. In war People do some very strange things and some time they are not to the betterment of our Country.If some one is shooting at you, you shot back and do not worry about who you are shooting at, just want to get who is doing it. Sometime you hit innocent civilians.Nothing to worry about if that happens, you feel sad but don't let it stop you on your mission.

Shrew
The answer to your question is.....it depends. If a foreign army occupied my country, the way I would react would completely depend on the circumstances, which you don't seem to give any thought to, or just attribute them all to your delusional conspiracy theories. If I had been an Iraqui living under Saddam and his demented, sadistic sons, I believe I would have been pretty relieved, as the majority of Iraquis were, when American troops rolled into Baghdad. Recent polls show that some 80% of Iraquis say that in light of the current situation they are still glad that America got rid of Saddam.

no thanks
sorry but I can't have another serving of red meat, I'm already stuffed.

Let's All Relax
It is sad to me that people like you see America as a land that is now lead by evil people. From this side of the ocean I see the opposite.

Here is what America is. It is a land of responsibility. It was our troops in Western Europe during the post war years of the 1950's and 1960's that prevented Europe from being dominated by the Soviet Union and thanks to our wonderful president Ronald Reagan, it was America that ultimately defeated the Soviet Union without having to fire a shot. Our unselfishness in the 1960's and 1970's was aimed at curbing the expansionist policy of the Soviets in Vietnam. Unfortunately, there are too many like you among us in this country who care not for the responsibility that our leaders have accepted and we lost the Vietnam war in the streets of this country without losing a battle in Vietnam itself. Do I suppose Europeans become wiery of Americans like me who periodically remind them that the greater majority of them would be speaking German today if not for my country? Sure. But perhaps a little gratitude and acceptance of your own share of the responsibility to keep yourselves and others of the world free would go a long way to prevent those like me from periodically raising this subject.

Colin Powell said it about as well as anyone when he said that America has liberated hundreds of millions of people and has never asked for anything more that sufficient land to bury our dead. How can this be considered evil?

If one wants a definition of evil one merely needs to look to the selfishness and cowardice of Jacques Chirac and see that the French were deeply mired along with the United Nations in the oil for food program that was intended to bring food to Iraqi citizens but instead was making countries of Europe and Saddam Hussein wealthy beyond their wildest imaginations. France doesn't appear to be concerned about whether people live free. Their selfish concern was the risk of losing a trading partner. My country, on the other hand, had a noble cause and had the audacity to expect that Saddam Hussein live up to his obligations contained within his Gulf War surrender agreement, assist his own citizens and not be a menace to the world. We didn't like that Saddam paid bounties to the families of suicide bombers in Palestine. We didn't like it that Saddam provided safe haven to al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. We didn't like it that Saddam shot at our planes that patrolled the no-fly zone, sorties that we carried out to prevent Saddam from annihilating his own people. We didn't like it that Saddam provided a location for terrorists to train, learning how to murder citizens all over the world. We didn't like it that Saddam had gassed and otherwise murdered hundreds of thousands of his own citizens in his paranoid quest to remain in power. We didn't like that Saddam appeared to be developing the capabilities to become a nuclear nation at which time he might be free to hold the world hostage to his truly evil demands. Yes, it was America under the leadership of men you consider evil that moved against Saddam while many in Europe hid under their chairs like cowards and proclaimed our motives evil or unjust and claimed that America was the war monger.

I believe you should be ashamed for the response I just read. Perhaps we should all be more introspective but I would certainly challenge you to look within your own country and the other countries of Europe and ask whether your nation has or has not benefited from the responsibility accepted by Americans, especially over the last 66 years including our acceptance of the responsibility to fight those who bring terror as a tactic to the world in 2007.




rd
"I believe I would have been pretty relieved, as the majority of Iraquis were, when American troops rolled into Baghdad. Recent polls show that some 80% of Iraquis say that in light of the current situation they are still glad that America got rid of Saddam."

Please site your source.

typo
site---> cite

Ron
Nice story; however, much of it is untrue. We went to Iraq to carry out plans for nation-building developed by a small group of individuals, calling themselves, "neocons", long before 9-11. These neocons, did not reach power until the Bush/Cheney administration. Now, they set our foreign policy.

9-11 was used as an excuse to execute said plans.

I have posted links to some of these plans, from their own sites, numerous times.

Note: I do agree with you that our country used to be a shining beacon for liberty and freedom. Unfortunately, we took our eyes off the prize and stopped doing our duty to keep a close watch on what our public servants were doing.

neoCONS are dogmatic
agree with this:
************************************************
DS writes: Sunday, March, 04, 2007 12:57 PM
Hypocrisy of the neocons
Anyone who criticize the wrong doings of the Bush junta is called anti-American but at the same time any foreigner who criticizes their country in favor of the Bush adm is held a hero.

Americans who criticize the fascist Bush are NOT Anti-Americans. This label is used to mute the sane voices of the good people of America. We live in a democracy not in a dictatorship. dissent is the highest form of patriotism. We dont hate America, on the contrary, its our love for this country what makes us long for the good o'l days when America was respected and loved by most of the world.
************************************************

It still cracks me up when I get branded a liberal for questioning the neoCON spawned war in Iraq-- as distinct from a real fight against those who have or might do us harm. The neoCONS simply play some on the right like a Stradivarius. Though I held my nose, I voted twice for Dubya, and had worked in the campaigns of daddy Bush and Reagan in Hotlanta. I am a card-carrying REAL conservative... I am not fooled by the RINO types like Presidente Jorge and Sen. Juan McQuisling who embrace liberals like Kennedy and Feingold and big government like Rx care for seniors and No Bureaucrat Left Behind and open borders. It does no good to claim to be fighting ervil doers over in the big sandbox even as we allow them to flood across our border and tuck them in with government assistance!

The neoCONS came into Dubya's W.H. with invasion erections for Iraq for their PNAC agenda which they had begun touting back in 1996. We attacked the wrong bad guys for the wrong reasons with the wrong plan and the wrong execution-- and conservatives are supposed to stay the course and clam up in blind support of the blind hog who ran with dogs and got fleas?!

The Shrew
How would you feel or react if you were one of the victims in Darfur? Would you want the U.S. to come in and save you or not? And if you wanted us to come in and save you, how would you feel or react about people like you who insist we have no right to do so?

As far as I can see, most of the insurgents in Iraq are either al-Qaida operatives, who of course want to impose their own horrid rule over Iraq, and those people who will lose the power they UNJUSTIFIABLY had prior to our being there. Why should the actions of either group bring discredit on us?

By the way, both my parents were in the armed forces during WWII. Neither ended up overseas. Does that make them cowards? I have a friend who joined the Marines during the Vietnam War era, but ended up in the Philippines. Does that make him a coward since he wasn't in Nam?

America has nothing to apolagize for
Europe is full of fool hardy seclurist who refuse to stand up to Islamic tyranny while at the same time they are overcome with fear of a so called global warming threat that is been hyped.

God bless the United States of America

Liberty
You are going to have to do better than that. You have made a blanket statement that much of what I said to be untrue. Just what did I say that you believe to be untrue?

a few noteworthy posts
Myopine, you crack me up! Too funny!

Ron,

Bravo to you, hon! You did an EXCELLENT job of eloquently stating what America has sacrificed for others. And all without a simple "Thank you."

To anyone still bent on degrading the United States, yes, look inward. YOU ain't squeeky clean yourselves. Anyone still thinking the US is self-indulging is practicing self-indulgence themselves. Very selfish of you liberals. Frankly, I am not worried about what other countries think of us. Maybe it is time THEY started worrying about what WE think of THEM. Oh, dear. Did I just cross the hypocritical line? Because we all know that any American that defends this nation isn't allowed to do so but others are allowed to bash us. Hmmmmm....isn't THAT hypocrisy?
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