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Thursday, April 02, 2009
Jason Clemens :: Townhall.com Columnist
Is All "Fair" With the Obama Agenda?
by Jason Clemens
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


President Obama and congressional Democrats are avidly pursuing a sweeping agenda they claim is justified by the need for greater "fairness." This invites scrutiny of the various programs to verify if they do, in fact, promote fairness.

"Free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice" is the standard meaning of fairness, which requires treating people similarly, perhaps not identically, but certainly not with purposeful difference. Apply this test to the tax changes proposed in President Obama's budget, and it seems clear he wants to punish higher-income earners for the benefit of others, namely lower and middle-income earners.

Let's understand the pre-Obama tax status quo. In 2006, the most recent year for which comprehensive IRS statistics are available, there were 135.7 million tax returns with a total of $8.1 trillion in income (technically called adjusted gross income) and a total of $1.0 trillion paid in income taxes after consideration of tax credits.

The top one percent of earners claimed 22.1 percent of all the adjusted gross income that year, but they paid 39.9 percent of all income taxes.

In other words, the richest of the rich in 2006 paid nearly double the proportion of their income in income taxes. Such a disproportionate burden makes it tough to argue that the tax system is rigged to benefit the rich.

Perhaps more striking is the burden placed on the 13.8 million earners who represent the top 10 percent of Americans. In 2006, the top 10 percent earned almost half of all the income (47.3 percent) but paid a full 70.8 percent of all income taxes. Put differently, 13.8 million taxpayers paid almost three-quarters of the entire income tax bill in 2006.

Another way of looking at the burden of income taxes is by the average tax rate faced by different groups. The average tax rate (ratio of income taxes after credits to adjusted gross income) for the top one percent was 22.8 percent. For the top 10 percent it was 18.9 percent. For the bottom 50 percent it was a near non-existent 3.0 percent. The figures make it abundantly clear that income taxes, the largest source of government revenues, are markedly punitive the more one earns.

The normal response from those who want yet higher taxes on the wealthy is that lower and middle-income earners also pay payroll taxes, which is true. However, payroll taxes largely go to fund what is supposed to be a social insurance fund. The grand bargain behind the program, as espoused by FDR, is that people pay into the fund and then receive a near-proportionate benefit. Those arguing for reform of payroll taxes are essentially promoting the abandonment of that grand bargain in order to achieve even greater redistribution of income.

It is a strange concept of fairness that requires some people to pay more taxes so others can benefit from programs they no longer pay for. Consider also the radical plan to shift power away from workers and employers to unions, known as the Employee Free Choice Act.

In the name of fairness, this bill eliminates the requirement for a secret-ballot vote to approve the installation of a union, which is considered a mainstay of fair elections and a protection against retaliation. In other countries, such measures have proven to be a bonanza for union bosses but costly for average workers and the economy as a whole. Thus, on union membership, payroll taxes, and income taxes, the administration's policies fail the basic fairness test.

President Obama is a man of boundless eloquence but proclaiming a policy to be fair does not make it so. To achieve the brighter future the President and everybody else wants will require a different and decidedly fairer approach.

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About The Author
Jason Clemens is the Director of Research at the Pacific Research Institute.
 
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Fairness?
The new definition is that rich peoples' money gets redistributed to people who didn't earn it. So fairness will become, rich people will stop working so hard and become recipients of the redistribution and everyone will wonder where the source for the redistribution is going to come from. Do you really seriously believe people will keep working hard just to see their money given away to Obamaites? Socialism works until the socialists run out of other peoples' money to spend.

Re: SCHIP
I would like to suggest to the New Jersey State tax Collector that if they want to fund the "precious children" health-care program, (I no longer have any children, nor grand-children) they should lift the ban on smoking in public places, like bars and restaurants, or at least legalize the opening of public establishments that allow smokers (anti-smokers need not frequent such places), maybe that will increase the number of smokers, and they can reduce the prohibitive taxation on a segment of New Jerseyans to a manageable level. Furthermore, smokers who sign a "contract" with the state, that they will never peruse state funds for treatments of direct smoke related illnesses, such as respiratory system illnesses and cancers and heart disease that can be unequivocally proven to be smoke related (not cholesterol or other high risk-related life-style)would have to pay a lower cigarette tax. Wouldn't that be just a "fair and equitable taxation"? In the tea parties I would like all the "dinosaurs", like me, who would still like to enjoy a cigarette in a "public place" should carry signs "No cigarette taxation, without representation"!
Any feedback?

Lon has failed to notice
that anytime politicians want to raise taxes, they describe the increase as being "for the children."

Lon, do you seriously believe that the money raised by the increase in the tobacco tax will be held separately and allocated for poor children's health insurance only? Maybe so, just as the money that the states received from the massive tobacco settlement ALL went for smoking cessation programs--except for the amounts that went to fund government in general.

So will go revenues raised by increased tobacco taxes. But then, what do we do that's not "for the children"?

TAXES ON WHO?
Contrary to the "Obama byline", he is in reality
raising taxes on ALL AMERICANS. When tobacco,
gasoline, "cap and trade", and many (too numer-
ous to list) more of this administration's
proposed tax hikes go into effect, they will
unilaterally DESTROY this country's economic
foundation as it decimates the budgets of most
American families. We ALL PAY, and only those
too dumb to see it now will see it soon enough
as their utility bills skyrocket to 4-5 times
their current amount, and prices at the pump do
the same. Do YOU want your government to be your
God? This is what happens to a country that was
founded under God, but has turned their backs
upon Him... Get right with God or pay the devil!

TAXES ON WHO?
Contrary to the "Obama byline", he is in reality
raising taxes on ALL AMERICANS. When tobacco,
gasoline, "cap and trade", and many (too numer-
ous to list) more of this administration's
proposed tax hikes go into effect, they will
unilaterally DESTROY this country's economic
foundation as it decimates the budgets of most
American families. We ALL PAY, and only those
too dumb to see it now will see it soon enough
as their utility bills skyrocket to 4-5 times
their current amount, and prices at the pump do
the same. Do YOU want your government to be your
God? This is what happens to a country that was
founded under God, but has turned their backs
upon Him... Get right with God or pay the devil!

hail to the chief
I certainly hope the Messiah will apply the same message to professional sports. NBA,NFL,NHL, and professional baseball. Athletes are pain mega millions to catch a ball, tackle, and play a game. We all should benefit from their talent. Obama take heed. Professional sports is dominated by black athletes who will object to their millions being shared iam sure.

TAXES ON WHO?
Contrary to the "Obama byline", he is in reality
raising taxes on ALL AMERICANS. When tobacco,
gasoline, "cap and trade", and many (too numer-
ous to list) more of this administration's
proposed tax hikes go into effect, they will
unilaterally DESTROY this country's economic
foundation as it decimates the budgets of most
American families. We ALL PAY, and only those
too dumb to see it now will see it soon enough
as their utility bills skyrocket to 4-5 times
their current amount, and prices at the pump do
the same. Do YOU want your government to be your
God? This is what happens to a country that was
founded under God, but has turned their backs
upon Him... Get right with God or pay the devil!

Rewarding bad behavior

It would appear the hallmark of Obama's administration is to punish hard working, play by the rules americans and to reward the parasites among us.

OUR LADY OF THE MANY BREASTS
As government is God for Obama and the Left did you ever wonder what this deity would look like if it assumed a physical form? Well it just so happens in remote antiquity the ancient Ephesians worshipped such a god, the ideal socialist deity, the terrible Diana of Ephesus: Our Lady of the Many Breasts. Click ApolloSpeaks and take a peek at this obamanation.

The biggest problem with Democrats......
is the fact that they think short-term, not long-term. In otherwords, they say and act on what they are feeling with no or little regard for the future. (It doesn't surpise me that most Democrats that post on this site make such inane remarks)

Take for instance Social Security. We pay into it for all our working days. But.....people have much longer lifespans now than when FDR initiated the program.....and, for the most part, because of abortion and because of Democrat Congresses spending the proceeds, SS can no longer survive as it is. Another downside to the SS system is that it gave people the idea that, if all else is lost, the government will support them. FDR is really the first big Democrat President social spender. Between FDR and LBJ and now BHO, the US will be bankrupt in no time.

These Presidents were short-sighted, as are most Democrats.

Let's Play FootBall! The Obama Way:
Your team can pay for the best players.

My team can get money from the league to help me pay inferior players the same amount of money as your players.

When your team beats my team...we can split the money down the middle.

HEY..LET'S BE FAIR.

TALENT, EFFORT, ABILITY, DETERMINATION, VALUES--THEY MEAN NOTHING IN OBAMA'S WORLD OF FAIRNESS.

SO, LET'S PLAY FOOTBALL OBAMA'S WAY.

THE IGNORANCE IN THIS COUNTRY IS ASTOUNDING.

THERE WILL BE HELL TO PAY NOW.

ROWDY BOOTS

Lon are you really King Lib or one
of Robert's many incarnations?

I don't understand why you trolls bother harassing TH'er's who never asked for your whacko opinions.

Liberals, many extraordinarily wealthy like Steven Spielberg and the various Kennedys, always assume anyone who's made anything is some terrible racist or hater.

My people were Pineys, who had NOTHING. They were called dirt farmers because what they had was dirt. My generation worked its way through high school and college, and unlike the Big O's appointees paid our taxes along the way, and have seen our children become professionals like engineers and lawyers.

We aren't whiners, and have always been producers. But I RESENT the Big O and Big Libs. trying to tell me I owe someone else my assets and savings because the others don't have any. Let them earn their own.

I am for giving nobody nothing they didn't work for. And thankfully, the ec.'s of Europe are so precarious all the time because of the socialist gov't's that they cannot and will not back the O dream of O Land that just spends someone else' money to buy votes all the time.

The Big O is now telling Dems. who don't believe in banktupting deficits that he's *watching them.* I gues the big CHANGE that's come to DC is the open thuggery of Chicago politics out in the open. We'll see how many Dems. start telling the O back that he can go watch himself in the mirror.

No one elected him king.

It would be fairer if the millionaires
in Cong. gave up free limos (cost to taxpayers $2.36 billion), free haircuts (why should millionaires get free haircuts?), free mailing (must be in touch with citizens, except if I went to see anyone since I'm not Brad Pitt, no one would talk to me), and free military plane flights (at the military's--ours--expense).

If CEO's have to cough up bonuses and legally contracted salaries and jobs, then Cong. should cough up and pay its own way while in DC.
Also, staff raises they just slipped through while everyone else was focused on GM and ilk
should be rescinded.

As to the Big O, he was on tv all day all the time telling the world us how wonderful he is in Europe and how he is single-handedly solving all the ec. woes of the entire globe. It must be wonderful to be so powerful with so little experience yet so much arrogance. He has announced that the recession has hit the half-way pt. because today the stock market had a small rally. He should look at the rallies the stock market had during the Grt. Dep. There were little up days, then, too, but the whole mess still went on for years, because the gov't promoted it.

Truely Fair
The true test of fairness will be when politicians, actors, and lawyers are all living on the same salary with the same benefits as everyone else.
Until then don't even think about calling this mess "fair."

Tax Cuts = More Revenue
When will liberals ever learn? Every time marginal tax rates have been lowered, revenues to the federal treasury have increased. It happened under Kennedy, Reagan, and the despised GWB.

The reason? Economic growth. More money in the hands of the people means more economic activity and expansion, rising employment and incomes, and a broader tax base (more people paying taxes, for you Obama voters).

In the end, it is economic prosperity that enables liberals to pi$$ away billions of dollars on the counterproductive social policies they clamor for. They rail against "corporate profits," but you can't tax losses, morons.

They rail against people making "obscene" amounts of money, heedless that a man who earns a million dollars coughs up $360,000 in federal taxes alone for liberals to hand out to their constituents. Throw in state, local, sales, travel, telecommunication, and countless other taxes and it's probably half his earnings at least.

Bottom line: If liberals wanted more of other people's money to blow, they would lower taxes, not raise them. But it's not about money, it's about power. It's about the role of "hero to the downtrodden" that they cast themselves in as they flaunt they're phony "compassion" with other people's money.

NOTHING LEFT TO SHARE !

Hey you serfs, “SHARE MORE”, Biden preaches. YOU have to share more to save the WORLD! SO in fear of being put in jail you obey the mandate, look around to see what is left to share just as you have been fleeced out of your income, assets, cash, life savings, and jobs for the next 50 years.

“RIDE SHARE” Mandatory car pooling blasts out at me as someone reads a proposal by the Obama Sec saying mandating car pooling as in give every radical parasite a ride to the market, bread lines, is the best idea of sharing to save the World. You think ?

Look around, congress points out that you will share more by paying Obama’s new energy taxes of $3,000 motr per year to save the WORLD!

I better not get sick over this because they RATIONED HEALTH CARE and Slashed Medicare to give more illegals free health care, to pay for abortions around the world, to remove all tattoos and then pass out condoms to our kids in Obama’s new child slave labor camps.

What else is left to share I just froze! Tell me it is not possible that Barney-Dodd demand that we share our houses with their radical parasites!

Shaking with fear, I feverishly page through all pages of bills, amendments, proposals floating around in DC. Anything is possible because you only hear about “change” if you are still awake at midnight.

On the bright side, I will still have some old clothes to FIT ONLY ME. Because I do NOT live in CA, I can keep my BLACK CAR to share of course.

SO WHAT R U GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

HEAD TO DC on July 4th.

Because BIDEN says we all have to share more!
I expect every one of you to be there on July 4th to share those capital steps with me.

Whiners Keep On Whining

It started with the Great Society, then The Dumbing Down Of America, and continued with parents' giving their children everything even if it bankrupted the households. Now, we have the whiners, who have never done anything, demanding even more.

Take a look at the New York Time's slime of the clownish behavior in London during the G20:

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/protesters-fail -to-bring-down-global-capitalism-with-costumes-puppets/

And, guess what? The whiners are coming to New York City in September for the next G20 meeting.

Sebelius-tax cheat
She had to cough up over $7,000 in back taxes. This is how many now? What are the odds? I don't think any of these people pay their "FAIR" share!

Lon
How dare you! You wrote that "the measure of whether policies are good or bad for the poor needs to take into account reality." Are you a physician, a nurse, a health care provider of any kind? i have practiced medicine for over 40 years, and I'll bet my perception of medicial "realities" beats yours, everyday.

Are you a smoker? I'm guessing you aren't. So, how "fair" is it (the subject of this article) of you to extract money from 1 class of citizens to give to another - just so you can relieve your guilt with other people's money.

BTW, I'm not "pretending" anything, you twit. Do you live in a "pretend" world?

Demonstenes
It would have been quicker to say "Waaaah". There are a lot of people to whom life has thrown a curve. It does not appear from your description that you are one of them. But it is good to see that you can still be in the top 2% of whining in the country no doubt due to your being more full of yourself than the majority (military and public safety personel notwithstanding).

You resent my pointing that out? Most people in this country have more serious things to be resentful of. So congratulations. Not sure that there is anything in your message that I should resent. The only thing you seem to exceed me in is whininess. Maybe that is something I should resent. It seems like a lot of fun to whine about how unfair life is, and I never get to manage to do it. Oh woe is me.

See that was fun.

Lon: mental defective
"They make the mathematically illiterate leap to the idea that the same percentage of income must be the fair amount."

Being a Democrat, you must then be the other kind of mental defective who thinks that "Fairness" is actually an objective, quantifiable concept.

Please tell me that you don't have a degree w/ the word "Science" actually printed on it?

Jag CA...
...wish I could have said it as clearly as you have.

Re Socialist agendas, I will never forget the outcome of an Australian government's mandate that all Aboriginal kids get vaccinated. A significant percent of them were dying after being vaccinated! Two Family Docs took it on themselves to try a little experiment...since they thought the kids were less than ideally nourished. They premedicated the kids for a couple of weeks with Vitamin C. None of the kids getting shots after the Vitamin died. So much for government "expertise." How about the millions of African kids who have died of Malaria, because of the insane ban on DDT.

I'm sure we can figure out a way of more efficiently delivering reasonable health care to the poor...especially, kids. Blindly assuming that Socialist technocrats have all the answers is stupid.

Rick
If your point is that in life one gets out what one puts in, then you have a very simpleminded point. In reality the world is not nearly that fair, and never has been. You can read the Book of Job to get a reflection that this is a fact that has been around for a while.

It would be more accurate to say that for people from similar backgrounds, what they get out of life is correlated with what they put into it.

The current debate is largely whether to return to the tax rates of the 1990's. That was a very successful decade for the rich. It was also a pretty good decade for the poor, and for people in between.

If tax rates that are on the low side for most of the countries years of prosperity represent the straw that broke the camels back, then you are whining. Certainly Clemens is whining above. Life is not fair. The rich are not on the losing side of that fact.

Lon: I resent your pathetic envy
This country taxes “INCOME” not “WEALTH” on a progressive scale: the top 50% of INCOME EARNERS pay 96% of al INCOME TAXES. The top 10% of all wage earners pay 70% of all taxes, etc. Drop the “tax cuts for the rich” canard: My wife and I are in the top 2% of all income earners, but we both drive a Hondas. We are hardly wealthy. We are in the top 2% because we are demonstrably more intelligent & better educated than the majority (military & public safety personnel notwithstanding) of those people not in the top 2% & we resent your collectively pathetic, pedantic envy.

Additionally, kindly separate “INCOME” taxes from “Payroll” taxes (i.e., Social Security.) Now, in addition to having to do all the HEAVY LIFTING WRT financing the daily operations of the Federal government, I’m going to be expected to pay even more money into a PONZI scheme called Social Security w/o any guarantee that I will ever be able to collect even a small portion of what I’ve paid into the system. BHO’s solution? The “progressive” Democrat’s “solution” will be to buy more votes from the “parasite class”: forget the first $15-30K in earnings and then raise the taxable income limit from $97K to $200K IOT make up the difference. This would of course place a greater tax burden on the top 50% taxpayers- most of whom are of course evil white males. Please expect the Democrats to propose lifting the $90K ceiling on Social security taxes IOT buy even more votes from losers like you.

Daniel
I was talking about whether the bill that you said showed that democrats don't care about the poor supported that thesis. What the bill did was to expand coverage to health insurance for a certain number of poor children. It raised the money for this by raising taxes on cigarettes.

There may be better ways to get health care to those children, but they are not exactly being proposed by Republicans. The actual plan that you said showed disregard for poor people will increase the number of children with access to health care. It will also raise the cost of cigarettes. To pretend it does the latter without doing the former is dishonest or ignorant. To pretend the alternative to expanding SCHIP was something other than not expanding SCHIP is also not in line with reality.

I think the measure of whether policies are good or bad for the poor (or any other group for that matter) needs to take into account reality.

Since you oppose extending health care coverage to those poor children if it will mean making cigarettes more expensive, what was the alternative measure that was going to help those children? Or what was the alternate method of payment? Because frankly complaining that liberals don't help the poor enough while having no plan to help the poor is pretty weak sauce.

Daniel-Wow if that doesn't
say it all.
Daniel wrote:
"In 1965, the year Medicare/Medicaid was passed, $.03 of every dollar spent on health care was allocated to administrative costs. Today, it is between $.30 to $.40 of every dollar! See, we have to pay all those paper pushers in the over 90 State and Federal agencies looking over our shoulders all day long."

Let me add one point when I was in 2nd grade we had a full cafeteria with great food and no one was ever turned away if they didn't have or forgot lunch money.

The next year the Fed decided that they had to feed all the "starving" kids. So we started to get this little tin foil things with food so bad most kids wouldn't eat it. And if you didn't have a ticket you didn't eat -except the lunch lady would say just give me two tomorrow-now days my kid gets a soggy PBJ and a milk if he doesn't have a ticket-real compasion.


Small Town
I grew up in a small town. We had one high school. What I didn't understand then and still do not understand today is why everone seemed to whine that they weren't getting their fair share. They had the same educational opportunities that I had and guess what? A lot of them got pregnant in 9th and 10th grade because they had learned that the government would pay them. Then they treated the school teachers and administrators as though they owed them babysitters, assistance with getting to and from medical appointmnet in the middle of the day, and good grades. They called me a suck up when I did my work, got good grades, and got accepted to a college...but we were in the same classes and had the same teachers...it's not that my school was a bad school it's that the students that made those choices didn't want the responsibility...they wanted the freedom.

Care for the poor????
Obviously Lon and his fellow leftist loons care deeply for the poor. They care so deeply that they will never take a dime from their own pocket for charity but will tax the "wealthy" of this country so that they can feel good about helping the poor.

VP Biden is a prime example of giving very, very little in charity on an income well into six figures. My charitable giving on a medium 5 figure salary would exceed Biden's but Biden is a pillar of caring to the left in this country.

Dr Daniel: Very good point that any program run by government has very high overhead costs that the Lons of this world never consider. Government good, wealthy Republicans evil is the long and short of their outlook on life.


You're right Lon................
The rich "CHOOSE" to be rich. It has nothing to do with making the right choices, enduring long hours of hard work, or making the most of the opportunities every single American has. The rich just woke up one morning and said, "I think I'll be rich", and POOF, there you have it.

Your mindset is typical of the left. "WAH, my life didn't turn out right, it MUST be somebody else's fault. It's those damn rich people, they did it. It's not fair. Even though they pay a much higher percentage of their income in taxes than I do, they need to pay MORE!!!!! Then it will be fair."

Thanks, Moonbat...
...for helping to make my point. Throwing money at Washington might make some folks "feel good," but it doesn't provide quality health care.

Lon: Excuse me, sir, if you are arguing that the only way to deliver health care to poor kids is to expand an inefficient (at times, corrupt) system of Federally purchased (or mandated) insurance; then, you are the laughingstock, not me.

Your assumption is that SCHIP, various Federal mandates supported by taxing the poorest among us, etc. is the best or only way to do this. It isn't.

Where, exactly, did I write that "children are better off without health care?" I didn't. You are, either, a careless reader or a Koolaid drinker who can't think.

A Real World Example
Back in the 60's my father was on the board of the local hospital. During his tenure, Medicare was enacted. He relates that prior to this program, the hospital employed two people in the accounting department. In the first year of Medicare, they had to hire 20 additional bookkeepers to handle the additional paperwork required to comply with Medicare. That's where much of your higher health ins premium goes.

Lon
We are not whining about how unfair life is. We are stating what should be obvious. You get out what you put in. We continue to pay the lions share, and most of us are happy to do that, but at what point does being ridiculed as evil and not “giving our fair share" become ridiculous? I believe we are there.

Daniel
If you are arguing that poor children are better off without health insurance then I don't want to argue with you I want to laugh at you. Are you seriously trying to make the case that poor children do not benefit from having health insurance?

Obviously the level of paperwork in health care is an issue, and maybe it is a reason to favor a universal health care system over the current system with its massive duplication of forms. But the idea that children are better off with health care is so insane I want to confirm that that is actually the basis of your argument.

You are trying to dismiss the idea that expaning SCHIP to cover more children is a good thing for children, is that right?

Fair?
Anytime someone cites "fairness" as a justification for denying someone else part or all of the fruits of their labors, he/she should be asked "fairness to whom?" Bill Gates earns more than I do by orders of magnitude, but confiscating his income at a high rate does not add one dollar to my income. Is it fair to the family of a farmer or small businessman who are forced to sell out in order to pay estate taxes to the tune of 45-50%?

Taft
You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. You need to take a more thorough look. Get a life.

Lon
Since I'm a physician with overe 40 years experience in practice, I don't think you want to argue health care or its delviery with me. In 1965, the year Medicare/Medicaid was passed, $.03 of every dollar spent on health care was allocated to administrative costs. Today, it is between $.30 to $.40 of every dollar! See, we have to pay all those paper pushers in the over 90 State and Federal agencies looking over our shoulders all day long. I gurantee that a third of these new tax dollars will be wasted on administrative "costs." I might not want anyone to smoke, but I know that those poor kids will suffer, because most of their parents will continue to smoke. BTW, I didn't learn that from a textbook or political leaflet. I know that, because experience has taught me.

BTW, your parenthetical comment about my grandchildren - that they won't have the same "advantages" I had (suggesting that most wealth is inherited, not earned) - missed the point. I want them to grow up in a Capitalist society where talent, hard work, and risk-taking are rewarded. They are NOT REWARDED in a Socialist or Fascist state. I am not "whining on behalf of the rich," I am bemoaning the loss of our culture and freedoms.

Daniel
The cigarette tax you are talking about would pay for the expansion of S-chip zero percentage of which would go to people making 90,000 or more while much of it would go to protect the health of the children of people making 6,000 to 12,000 a year. Obviously that is only relevant to the discussion if one actually cares about the poor.

You were not trying to make a serious argument were you? Are you suggesting that poor children would be better off not having health insurance than they would be having their parents smoking become more expensive? Before answering keep in mind that the poor would be getting more money than they would be losing in this exchange. While you are still thinking about it you also might consider that with a higher tax these kids parents are likely to smoke a bit less which means they are likely to live a bit longer, which is a good thing for most of those kids.

So did you really think you were making a serious argument? Or were you parodying the way conservatives pretend to care about the poor while advocating policies that sacrifice the needs of the poor for the benefits of the rich?

rick theodore daniel
Judging from your response, I get the sense that you missed my point. I was not claiming that it is unfair for some people to be rich. (Although the fact that one of you is worried that the grandchildren of the people who made the money won't have the same advantages is just a reminder that wealth is not as closely aligned with merit as people sometimes pretend).

I was making fun of the whining on the behalf of the wealthy. Treating people differently on the basis of irrelevant features is unfair. But it is silly to think that income is irrelevant to taxes. Otherwise we would have a head tax paid equally by everyone. Although it is not clear what we would do with the many people who could not afford to pay the head tax.

Even proponents of the flat tax recognize that in a society rich people will pay more than poor people. They make the mathematically illiterate leap to the idea that the same percentage of income must be the fair amount. (But why, would anyone noticing that other goods would be out of reach of the poor if everyone paid the same jump to the idea that it should be prices as a percentage of income? Seems unlikely).

There are serious arguments to be had about whether the current tax system is too progressive or too regressive or just right. The whining about how unfair life is for the rich is not among them. It is a good way to get people to laugh at conservatives who make such silly arguments.

Tanks Daniel
Right on the mark. Someimes I think others should see my point without me having to make it. I shall atempt to correct the error of my ways.

Lon
I think you got things bass ackwards, don't you? My tears are not shed for "those poor rich people," as you sazrcastically refer to them. My tears are for my grandchildren who are growing up in a Socialist, soon to be Fascist, state.

Try this for "fair." About 13% of people making $90,000 or more per year are smokers. About 34% of people making $6,000 to $12,000 per year are smokers. Guess which group of people will be hit harder by the new !$.62! per pack cigarette tax? this outrageous tax was passed by those kind and compassionate Democrats - who could care less about the effects on poor kids.

In my opinion, there isn't a single person in Washington, D.C. who gives a damn about fairness.

BTW, Steve - nice post.

Lon
Gee, Lon you are an idiot. Rich people generally "make" themselves righ through hard work, intelligent (and lucky) decisions, perseverence and so on. But of those who underatake that roan probably less than 1% make it. So, Lon, have at it and good luck. But typically winners have a positive, optimistic attitude built into their personalities. Lon, you can't make it, so keep running down those who are successful and hope you feel better.

http://www.periodictablet.com

"Fair"
The Obama Administration couldn't care less about "fairness" or any ratioinal analysis. It -- and Democratic Government -- only cares about winning and gaining and retaining power over others. Republicans who think they can argue or rationalize anything with or about Democrats are naive. They must mobilized to stop the One Party Government of the Democrats and WIN!

That's all;

http://www.periodictablet.com

It is not about the money
People just don't understand. Obama isn't going after the rich-how many pages of the tax code do you think concerns the middle class. The "rich" have the political contacts, the attorneys, and the accountants to get around the tax code. Just look at the Obama cabinet. This is about the middle and upper middle class.

What do you think cap and trade or Corporate income tax is about. That is a Huge tax on the middle class and to a lesser extent on the poor. Every time you by a new car or TV the price of the corporate tax is figured into the selling price. Plus it has the added benefit (to libs) of hurting American business and weakening the country.

Look at oil, if we opened up ANWR and other areas of the country we could instantly create thousands of high paying jobs, balance our trade deficit, and cut into the budget deficit. But we can't do that-why- because the dems and some republicans wouldn't get their payoffs from the arabs.

IF HE was really concerned about the economy and keeping American strong Obama could with the stroke of the pen turn this economy around on the dime and almost balance the budget with four executive orders.

1. Open ANWR, Coasts, and other areas for drilling.

2. Authorize 4 new refinery to be build in the US.

3. Authorize a tax credit for the purchase of any American made car, rec vehicle, or water craft.

4. Authorize the building of 20 new nuke power plants in the US (forget about all that BS about radiation hazards, you can store all the radioactive waste created by one plant over a year period under a desk-check for your self- A years worth of hard radioactive waste created by all the nuke plants in the US can be stored in a 3 car garage)

These 4 things alone would create hundreds of thousands high paying jobs, reduce green house gases, cut in the deficit, make American energy self sufficient, and keep us strong.

Everything the dems don't want

Taft
Which party raises tobacco, gas, and alcohol taxes every chance they get?

Could it maybe be the ........democrates.

Taft
I think Rick was pointing out that you are talking consumption taxes while the article dealt with income taxes. No question that consumption taxes eat a bigger percentage of low incomes than high incomes. Anyone with a 3rd grade ed (at least from my generation) could figure that out. That doesn't necessarily make it unfair though, just makes it considerably smarter to get an education and skills so you aren't in that situation. Equal opportunity Taft, not equal outcomes. But instead of carping that we should make rich folks pay more how about lets ask why the guvmnt has so many consumption taxes to begin with. Maybe we should do away with the income tax in which low incomes have a decided advantage and just have consumption taxes. That way we all pay equal amounts based on what we buy, rich or poor.

Regards

Life
Life isn't fair and government cannot make it fair. Government can only take from some and give to others. Davey Crockett had a good speech called, "Not Yours to Give."

http://www.juntosociety.com/patriotism/inytg.html

liberals' stratagem for amnesty

Watch the Chosen One/the Glowbama press for Scamnesty shortly using the hackneyed, disingenuous line, "bringing people out of the shadows," partly under the guise of getting ILLEGALS to help fight drug cartels-- that is like treating the heart patient with an injection of cancer cells so he won't die of heart failure!

As a dedicated soldier in the fight to save America from myopic, beleaguered acceptance of the ILLEGAL invasion, I surely appreciate the frustration of the majority of Americans (70%+) with quisling politicians.

The left KNOWS that ILLEGALS will vote 95% for big entitlement guvment, which explains why the ObaMessiah has stopped construction of the border fence, which was well under way, and working.

HOWEVER, the fight is NOT lost!!!
We stopped Kennedy-McCain Scamnesty, then killed the disingenuous "Dream Act," a liberal gambit to give ILLEGALS a free community college education and thence a path to citizenship, and blue state N.Y. stanched the governor Spitzer's scheme to give ILLEGALS licenses, which 77% of Americans oppose per Rasmussen (because licenses are a step toward voting and scamnesty).

Join the fight, Middle America to save YOUR COUNTRY-- while we still have a little time!!!!!!!!

The BEST group to assist you is Numbers USA... several senators agreed that they were the group most responsible for stanching Kennedy-McCain Scamnesty:

http://www.numbersusa.com/content/

They have targeted e-mails and messages for Congress, OR you can contact Congress directly at the official sites right here:

http://www.congressmerge.com/

BOOKMARK it, and rattle those cages in Congress often! Save YOUR country before it is too late! The left is resurrecting the Dream Act -- we need to kill it AGAIN.

Blue dog Çrats (e.g., Heath Shuler-- who sponsors the desirable SAVE Act) are already starting to resist the ObaMessiah and the hard left-- hope is NOT lost, BUT it WILL require dedication from Middle America!

Rick
My point was, counter to the authors opinion, the poor folks in the US pay a large amount in taxes too.

Bottom Line
Folks --- instead of dithering about with worries on whether the rich and the poor might want to switch places, can we step back and get the bigger picture?

Before Obama took office we already spent much more than we collected......a nifty feat that no one in his right mind would do with his personal budget.

Now that Obama has ascended to the throne of power, he wants to triple down on an already bad bet.

This is not his money (liberals never like to spend their own money, right Mr. Geithner?) but neither is it "our" money any longer. We are spending our grandchildrens' money at this point.

All off this hand-wringing is also helping to hide the Ponzi scheme our politicians have built for us: Social Security. FACT: instead of saving the "payroll taxes" collected from all of us, Congress has spent all of that money and put IOU's into the lockbox for us to enjoy when we hit age 62.

Let's worry less about who pays what (although that is a pretty good discussion topic) and start to worry if we can pay at all.

You would not run your family budget like this...or would you?

My word Taft
Unless their cars run on tobacco and alcohol, what is the point of that comment?

But Lon
By "choosing" to be rich, I don't need to "ask" (read force) others to pay my way. Do you really not understand that? The choice to be rich or poor is made long before you seem to think it is. What you fail to see, is the burden of becoming rich. Oh wait, I just remembered, I won "life's lottery, never mind. Now, what other of your bad desisions would you like me to pay for

As E.D. states @ 08:09
"Fairness" to socialists/groats (into which nearly cent-percent of Dhimmicruds fall) means doing it their way.

I think your tense is wrong Kirk (08:15)--it's already here in the person of Soros' henchman surrender-monkey-in-chief Oblunder!

Poor Little Rich kid
"
Or the argument that low-income people don't pay taxes. Based on recent data from the U.S. Congressional Budget Office and the Internal Revenue Service, the total of all state and local taxes, social security taxes, and excise taxes (gasoline, alcohol, tobacco) consumes 21% of the annual incomes of the poorest half of America. For the richest 1% of Americans, the same taxes consume 7% of their incomes."

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/03/25-13

hard not to cry
Obviously on reading this column I could not help but shed a tear for those poor rich people and the heavy burden they face. It was so reminiscent of blacks being forced to sit in the back of the bus, or gay couples not being allowed to marry because other people thought they shouldn't.

But then it occurred to me that unlike being gay, being rich is actually a choice. One can freely choose to be one of those lucky duck poor people with all of the benefits that entails.

Of course I don't expect anyone to make that choice because you would have to be a complete idiot to think that rich people are the burdened people in our society. But perhaps I will be proven wrong and we will see people opting to switch places with those lucky ducks who don't pay any taxes at all. I'm not betting on it though.

Leftists just don't understand the logic
Those that are in charge in Government, don't want to give that up and in fact, want more power. They will say or do anything to maintain that control and to gain more. The ignorant masses believe the lies they are told. Those who are sucking on the tit of government handouts do not want to give that up. If you want truly "fair", a flat tax or the Fair Tax is the only way to achieve that. How can a leftist look at the tax numbers shown in the article and not think that is "unfair"?

Rush
has had these tax statistics permanently posted on his web site for years, and it's about time they've gotten around a little, BUT so many people refuse to believe their eyes. They've been so inculcated with get evenism and a soak the rich mentality, they're like greedy third graders, cutting off their nose to spite their face.

I've argued with some fairly intelligent people over CEO compensation, to no avail. They believe in the mythical construct that when one person is successful, another must have failed. If someone makes a million dollars, then someone must have lost a million.

It's so easy to lead a dumbed down populace who has no clue how wealth is created. Maybe they'll figure it out after Obama kills the goose who lays the golden eggs, but I have my doubts.

The biggest surplus in this country is ignorance, and it's getting bigger thanks to the demagoguery and divisive rhetoric of the dhimmicrats.

"Diversity" is a negative, a poison inside the body politic. As long as lefties can keep us divided on social and racial lines, we will decline.

Fascism is
coming to America. The gobling up of private companys. The firing,telling GM and Chrysler they can't participate in NASCAR. The guns will be next, the dems do not believe you have a right to defend yourself. Then the cost and control over you with cap and trade. Folks it is only going to get worse. If we don't turn this around in 2010, we are done. We will be a third world country, and the one will sell us out as he is doing now.
Kirk

"Fairness" to the mind of a liberal . .
"Fairness" to a liberal (aka Democrat) mind simply means doing it their way!

According to forensic psychologist Lyle H. Rossiter, Jr., M.D., in his recent book, "The Liberal Mind - the Psychological Causes of Political Madness", "Modern liberalism's irrationality can only be understood as a product of psychopathology". In other words, liberals are all mentally ill, which is why they act in that irrational manner!

Zimbabwe Politics
To be a little British about our esteemed president now bloviating in the former motherland, one would have to say, "President Obama is a nasty piece of work."

In effect, his programs and his speeches say in no uncertain terms, "We, the underclass and the ignorant masses are in charge now and we're going to turn this pyramid upside down."

Of course, the results of his actions are gong to demonstrate why people like him and so-called other "disenfranchised" should never be in power.

Think Zimbabwe.
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