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Tuesday, May 06, 2008
Janice Shaw Crouse :: Townhall.com Columnist
Muddying the Evangelical Waters
by Janice Shaw Crouse
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This week, a select group of men (if there are any women involved, none have been identified) will issue a document they are calling “An Evangelical Manifesto: The Washington Declaration of Identity and Public Commitment.” We know just a bit about this embargoed document’s existence, not its content, because Warren Cole Smith, publisher of the Evangelical Press News Service, has written about the plan and process of producing the declaration that purports to represent American evangelical beliefs and values. Smith’s point in writing about the manifesto is that the timing of the release makes it a political document, and the closed group of people working on the content apparently excludes traditional conservative and pro-family evangelical voices.

Indeed, releasing the document appears to be staking a claim for new leadership with different emphases from the traditional, mainstream evangelical movement; the declaration’s authors appear to be making a power play to launch new public faces for evangelicalism. Perhaps they heard E.J. Dionne, Jr., a Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution, opine about what he perceives as a “waning influence of the traditional religious right” and hope to move into the perceived vacuum.

Likely, they also want to subtly shift the understanding of what it means to be “evangelical.” Several prominent self-identified “evangelical progressives” have written books and launched speaking and media campaigns in order to distance themselves from the issues of the religious right — painting themselves as more sophisticated and nuanced in their understanding of evil in the world. One branch created a “Deep Shift” to describe their “new paradigm” for making Christianity more palatable to the world. Others object to the “very narrow” depiction of evangelicals as conservative; they want the leftist social justice issues to be at the heart of “moral and political decision making.” While they object to the political activism of the religious right, their own “vocation” to use “political involvement as a vehicle for social change” is viewed as a mission and high calling.

“Progressives” criticize traditional evangelicals because they are overwhelmingly Republican, without acknowledging that the Republican platform, which has been consistently pro-life, is congruent with the moral values of evangelicals whereas the Democratic platform is not. “Progressives” criticize traditional evangelicals because they focus on individual sins and the two major moral issues of abortion and homosexual marriage, instead of focusing on what they call “structural sins” like poverty, war, oppression and destruction of the environment. Typically, when “progressives” talk about “broadening the evangelical agenda,” they mean making their so-called “structural sins” the priority instead of emphasizing the “personal sins” that concern traditional evangelicals.

Sadly, progressives often dilute the gospel message of salvation with their emphasis on so-called structural sins choosing to focus on the imperfections of American capitalism (which pale in comparison to those of every other economic system) and painting it as the ultimate evil (greedy corporations and underhanded bankers), and conspiracy theories abound. Though American capitalism has been the greatest engine for growth and human advancement in the history of the world, the United States, especially “Christian America,” is frequently blamed falsely for poverty and war, paternalism and exploitation, as well as racism and materialism. More recently, a presidential candidate leveled a charge of “legalized discrimination” against his country as an explanation for the long-term black poverty rates; he did not mention that economists agree that poverty in America can be attributed to “changes in family formation” because less than 40 percent of black children in America live in a married mom-and-dad family.

The “progressives” package their thinking in traditional Biblical rhetoric fusing traditional values with populist ideals and themes of the liberal left (like a Marxist-flavored version of social justice and racial reconciliation) and latching onto trendy secular causes like climate change, poverty, globalism, immigration and political correctness. If they talk about abortion at all, it is in the context of preventing the “necessity” for abortion. While they haven’t yet embraced homosexual “marriage,” they promote “civil unions” and condone “blessing” ceremonies in churches; like all evangelicals, they emphasize loving the sinner, but the leftists make no effort to distance their love for the sinner from the sinful lifestyle. In fact, instead of relying on Scriptural authority and theological clarity, one progressive has called for a five-year moratorium on pronouncements about homosexual behavior; instead, he wants dialogue, reflection and provisional comments until there is consensus.

The left is obviously targeting evangelicals by blurring the distinctions between liberal and conservative, producing an amalgam that will become as impotent and barren in the 21st century as most mainline protestant churches became in the 20th century. They criticize the religious right for thinking in terms of monologues instead of conversations; they decry absolutes and preaching, preferring instead, tolerance, narratives and communal interaction. Writing in Christianity Today, Amy Sullivan reported that in 2006, pro-choice and pro-gay rights gubernatorial candidates held informal listening sessions with evangelical voters and were able to garner almost 50 percent of the evangelical vote in their states. As a result, the major political candidates now have consultants to advise them on religious outreach to conservatives.

Since the 2004 election, over 10 percent of Evangelicals have switched parties, leaving the Republican for the Democratic Party. We also know that some self-described evangelicals hold liberal stances on issues like healthcare, war, gun control and the environment. Further, a significant number of evangelicals (according to George Barna’s polling) live no differently than their so-called “progressive” counterparts. These lukewarm believers (who critics say are less concerned about their salvation than their status and more concerned about money than morals) are easy prey for feel-good faith that puts few limitations on the believer — making no demands and establishing no boundaries. They are theological sponges — absorbing anything that “sounds” traditional and/or religious.

A very high priority of these ostensible believers is the avoidance of conflict. It seems a pillar of their faith for everyone to “just get along.” So, when serious, strict evangelicals have the temerity to take a strong moral stance on an issue that brings him or her into conflict with someone else’s position, this makes the nominally religious feel uncomfortable. They are prime candidates to embrace a less controversial and less demanding perspective and set of beliefs. As the Oprah phenomenon illustrates, there’s a definite market for those who prefer not to take positions but to accept whatever least common denominator makes the fewest demands, whatever position is politically smoothest with no rough moral edges.

Consideration of conservative policies and positions are taken off the table when it comes to leftist discussions of issues like “inclusion” and “diversity,” to say nothing about the sanctity of life or marriage.

The bottom line in terms of defining “evangelical” is that, according to Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research, Inc., a leading Democratic research organization, three-fourths of all evangelicals describe themselves as “mainstream” — over 70 percent go to church once a week, nearly 70 percent believe the Bible is the Word of God, nearly 85 percent believe that personal faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, and over 70 percent believe that moral values in America have declined. On the social issues, 85 percent oppose homosexual marriage, 74 percent oppose civil unions, and nearly 70 percent believe that abortion should be illegal. Isn’t it ironic that we must look to a secular organization to cut through the rhetorical fog to clarify what it means to be an evangelical?

However, no amount of pious-sounding rhetoric about our common American values will obscure the policy litmus tests on the great moral issues of the day upon which our humanity hangs; nor should it. As Christ warned the Disciples, standing for truth is not the route to public acclaim. The term “evangelical” means a Biblical worldview and this dictates a philosophical/theological perspective on the timeless moral issues of Scripture. Those positions ought to be clear and unequivocal, rather than muddied by sophisticated rhetoric and clever obfuscation. The subtle danger is, as the old axiom states: “Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.”

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About The Author
Janice Shaw Crouse is a former speechwriter for George H. W. Bush and now political commentator for the Concerned Women for America Legislative Action Committee.
 
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When is evangelical not evangelical?
An evangelical who aligns himself or herself with a corrupt, racist, pro-abortion, anti-capitalist, socialist, tree-hugging political party?

That person is no evangelical; he or she is probably not even Christian; but they are definitely deceptive and insidious.

Ditto
I agree "I'd rather be in Alaska" (me too). I listen to the "funny-mentalist" pergrecivs and hear much name calling for Christians, who sound like operatives for the DNC.

I'm not a Demoncat because there is little, if anything in that party that is something that I can stand with, or recognize as American... I see and read much Eurosocialism.

The GOP is fast losing me with the resugence of the defeatist wing of the party (aka Rockyfellerz and Country Club Blue Blooders) who wistfully remember the grand 40 years of minorityhood.

Alaska
I second the ditto, what these psuedo Christians
miss is The Cross and Him Crucified. They can
use all the highfaluttin' language they want but
if they aren't preaching the Cross then they are nothing but phonies. These are the same type of people who worked for decades to destroy the
great main line denominations. I was baptized, confirmed and married (to a Lutheran) in the
Episcopal church (the Low as we call it, not the High or Anglican), and I left it for his conservative Lutheran church a few years before they began ordaining females (you know the ones no one will explain about their being the husbands of one wife) which finished it for me.
15 yrs. later we left the Lutheran, for an Evangelical Church and we've been evangelicals since. We are in an era where people are Biblically illiterate so are willing participants in getting their ears tickled. We
have a couple of generations of mostly weak,
non thinking, touchy feely mindnumbed robots,
materialistic and selfish, refusing to grow up
and take responsiblity for their lives so it's no wonder these types of churches/preachers appeal to them. God loves everybody ya know,
and He is't going to send any one to H... because
it's really not there in the first place.

Sounds like redefinition to me
The term "evangelical" was coined about a century ago because the term "Christian" had been diluted by progressives who focused on the social gospel rather than the Biblical gospel. What evangelical means is easily tracable in the Bible and it traces right back in Antioch where the term "Christian" was first used. Biblically speaking, the terms are interchangeable, but Christian was redefined by social Christians to mean someone who attended a church with a Christian heritage and said the name Jesus a lot, so evangelical was adopted to clarify the situation. The Antioch CHristians believed strongly in what we would call the Pauline gospel. Jesus died for our sins and resurrected, defeating death. Those who would accept His salvation would do so by faith and not works. The Antioch Christians were the first truly "evangelical" Christians, launching the first-ever missionary trip to Asia Minor and several subsequent ones. Evangelical Christians therefore focus on personal sin and our personal relationship with God through Jesus and on the Great Commission to evanglize the world with the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Any groups that dilute that calling and message cannot truly call themselves evangelical. Of course, they shouldn't truly call themselves Christian either, but once they'd redefined the term, it was hard to win it back to its original meaning. I'm afraid that if you tell a lie often enough, people begin to mistake it for the truth. This is how redefining works.

P;us
The only way these false teachers can get away with what they are doing is because the Church
has been asleep for over 40 years, either that or hiding under their collective pews afraid to make waves out of fear of the IRS. They have
become servants of the government, so our country has fallen down spiritually. They were silent when God was expelled from school, and
silent when it was decided human sacrifice was
on the altar of feminism and choice was legal.
(There were/are a few exceptions). So the
ungodly influences seeped into the American Church, taking over the mainlines and now are targeting the Evangelical churches. It's like a poisonous fog as slowly engulfed the church.
Like that movie, "Something Wicked This Way Cometh."

Tea Party
Just becuase the preacher can't politic from the pulpit doesn't mean he can't preach the gospel and it also doesn't mean that the members can't talk politics during the fellowship. The problem has very little to do with the IRS and everything to do with postmodern worldview seeping into the church. People didn't realize that their children, even as they walked the aisles, were being indoctrinated into our modern version in intolerant tolerance and a belief that truth is relative. They failed to notice and failed to correct what their kids were learning. Now, a growing minority of people who believe they're saved also believe that you can't really know truth and shouldn't hold any belief with too great assurance and as they are coming of age, they are founding churches with members who believe as they do. They call themselves evangelical because their parents were evangelicals, but that's sort of like my calling myself a North Dakotan because my mother was raised in North Dakota. I've never set foot in ND, so that would be ridiculous. People who don't know Christ as Savior calling themselves Christians is ridiculous. People who don't believe in evangelizing with the gospel calling themselves evangelicals is probably actually tragic. But, they don't know that.

For Tea Party
I'm so sorry your experience with the Lutheran Church was not what it should have been. Whatever synod you were part of, I guess we have to put up with the flaws of synods wherein the congregations are pretty well autonomous.

OTOH, some years ago my SIL was sitting in our Lutheran (LCMS) church listening to the Christmas Eve homily and she could not believe that she wasn't hearing a social gospel, but the story and significance of the Our Lord's birth. She'd been raised in a more liberal "Lutheran" synod and being in our church and hearing about Jesus and nothing *but* Jesus just floored her. I on the other hand could hardly believe that there exists Lutheran churches that are Lutheran in name only!

Anyway, don't throw the baby out with his baptismal water. There are still confessional Lutheran bodies out here that preach nothing but Christ and Him crucified-and risen!

Not true
"These lukewarm believers (who critics say are less concerned about their salvation than their status and more concerned about money than morals) are easy prey for feel-good faith that puts few limitations on the believer — making no demands and establishing no boundaries."

Actually we do believe in boundaries. We disagree with gutting air quality laws to help the power companies make a buck (culture of life?). We also disagree with letting tobacco companies off the hook. We're also concerned with the 77,000 deaths attributed to the results of global warming. We also disagree with unprovoked invasions. To say we establish no boundaries is flagrant bearing of false witness. All of the problems listed above each involved flagrant lying, superiors rejecting what their subordinates were telling them. Can't people who purport to be Christian at least be honest? What a ridiculous assertion to say that liberals are more interested in money.

Cam, you don't believe in boundaries...
Cam writes: "Actually we do believe in boundaries."

Actually, you don't believe in boundaries. You (and all leftists) believe in YOUR boundaries; boundaries that are not static, but move with the changing winds of public opinion and the continuing development of "social evolution".

Those are not boundaries. Those are the planks of the National Democratic Party platform.

When he uses the word Paradigm
from the pulpit, I'm outa there. One of the things I enjoy most heartily about my particular Catholic church (although the congregation is non-friendly) is the fact that I don't have to tense up when time for the homily arrives; I know it will be Gospel centred and will neither mention the United States, capitalism nor sex. Could not count on that in the Anglican church and frequently had to leave the room until the ranting was over.

Being Christian without considering the teachings of Christ is like drinking decaf. Or more importantly, like expecting to lose weight without exercise, get top grades without studying, and make a perfect marriage without ever meeting any women.

Audi R 10
Good post. I was am now and always will be a practicing Catholic. Ours is the one true church. It was created by Jesus Christ and He left humans in charge which means we frequently screw the pooch and He has to step in an help us.


I'd rather
No, I do believe in boundaries, particularly boundaries set by Christ. "You can't serve God and money." All of the problems I listed in my first post are examples of people trying to serve money.

aurora - "People who don't believe in evangelizing with the gospel calling themselves evangelicals is probably actually tragic."

Who doesn't believe in evangalizing the gospel? My church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, sponsors missions in Rwanda, to name one. Is that not good enough for you? Frankly I'm leary about the word "evangelical" in our name. It's taken on a "war-mongering bigot" connotation.

You conservatives are something else. You support torturing people, denying health care to kids, and then go around proclaiming how you're the only true Christians.

Cam...
If you wish to debate Christianity, last I checked, there was a commandment saying "Thou shalt not murder," which would support Conservatives' claims that abortion is morally intolerable.

Last I checked however, there was no commandment saying "Thou shalt not waterboard" or "Thou shalt provide each child with an affordable health insurance premium different from a market price that's within the willingness to pay for a family of 4 earning $20,000 a year."

I am in full agreement with you that unchecked avarice is something to be assiduously avoided, but at the same time I'm leery of claims being issued against tobacco companies since health information on smoking has been out for decades, and I'm *extraordinarily* skeptical as to where that 77,000 death number comes from.

Stoic
It was the Democrats who passed the Reducing the Need for Abortions Initiative in congress last fall.

There is the commandment to treat others as you wish to be treated. When you declare war against a country after an unprovoked invasion (Japan, 1941), that implies that you shouldn't do that to others. When you procecute war criminals for waterboarding (Japan, 1945), that implies that you shouldn't do that either.

Would you agree that Christians should follow Christ's example? Wasn't Christ constantly healing people? When issues get grey, wouldn't Christ err on the side of protecting children's health rather than protecting their wealth?

Against its own staff recommendations, the Bush Administration reduced the settlements against the tobacco companies for manipulating nicotine levels and marketing to kids from $130 billion to $10 billion. Against the recommendations of its staff, Bush Administration officials have rewritten reports on New Source Review and global warming. The 77,000 deaths figure comes from the World Health Organization.

Stoic cont'd

Stoic cont'd

Close, but...
Cam writes: Tuesday, May, 06, 2008 5:33 PM

"You conservatives are something else. You support torturing people, denying health care to kids, and then go around proclaiming how you're the only true Christians."

It's actually much worse than that. We wear fur and abuse puppies.

Cam,
when is your church going to fight against the million babies murdered in this country every year?

CT
I get the sense that, in your mind, reducing abortions does not include supporting leaders who want to minimize unwanted pregnancies and maximizing adoptions.

No comments on the 77,000 deaths each year from global warming? How about the 18,000 Americans who die each year for lack of health care?

Cam
Though I am no evangelical, your position is untenable. After all, the Christian thing to do, even for an evangelical, is to provide the support and services and money YOURSELF. Taking money from other people, forcing them, through taxes, to pay for healthcare, etc., is not Christian (of course, in the cacophony of groups calling themselves Christian these days, I don't really think the word "Christian" has much of a real definition in the West, anymore).

the sinner,

Charles

Cam
Oh, and your "18,000 Americans who die each year from health care?" I'm calling nonsense on that. I have two relatives who work in the health care industry. That statistic is absolutely nonsense.

And if you're worried about that, get your medical degree and imitate Saints Cosmas and Damianos, the Unmercenary Physicians, and attend to the sick for free. Or encourage others to do so. But don't think that you are being Christian by forcing others to pay.

And the global warming figure is beyond nonsense and enters the realm of Al Gore nuttiness.

the sinner,

Charles

Evangelicals…

These are the ones more concerned about inviting men to Christ than to their local churches…

“Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” -Jesus Christ [Matthew 11:28].


Fascinating.
Do I hear the first murmers of a war against heresey?

Just think, if this were the fifteenth century you could just arrest those progressive infidels for a Saturday night auto da fey, followed by a few turns on the rack.


America
The state of America is not due to the power of evil, but to the weakness of the church.

Only Christians can hold the line. Now we have the gospel according to Bono.

America is finished.

Christianity has never been monolithic
I agree that the word evangelical means something and people shouldn't be delibrately trying to change that meaning to suit themselves--that kind of behavior just confuses people.

However I am a firm believer that there is more than one way to view the bible and the life of Jesus of Nazareth. I can see both the evangelical focus on individual sin and salvation and the progressive focus on social justice and treating others with mercy in the teaching of Jesus and the New Testament generally.

For myself I prefer to try to focus on being a better person and making the world a better place than on whatever afterlife their is. So I guess that makes me a progressive.

Trinity

When any group tries to separate out one issue as the prevailing doctorine we end up with heretics.

Christianity needs to be developed in the individual and within the community and needs be taught in full.

As religious education withers from high taxation and the extra costs parents must carry to have the right to have their children educated by the church, there will be more heretics unchallenged, looking to harness the "energy" that "faith" can generate.

Without religious education, there will be few to refute them and that will be a VERY dangerous time.


The Search for Meaning

If the Democrats had their way they would corrupt the church (Wright) and there by kill religion. Then they could work toward life without consequence.

Unfortunately it is Man's compulsion to look for meaning in their lives. Imagine if the liberals get their way what will be meanful then.


damn those progressives
If it weren't for them, we could still have slavery, child labor and voting for men only.

Another Leftist Hijack attempt
It's no harder than this: the Left has figured out that they're not going to defeat evangelical Christianity in open direct confrontation. Instead, they're trying to hijack the term and as much of the movement as they can to its own ends.

C.S. Lewis (an Anglican) in one of the "Screwtape Letters" of the 1940's saw this trend & recognized what it was about. He called it "Christianity And." Some social or political fad gets associated with Christianity. Churchmen & theologians are persuaded to advocate a trendy secular cause as some sort of desirable adjunct or reinterpretation of the Gospel. Therefore Christianity is misused and abused in the name of some (usually leftist) secular cause.

Remember "Liberation Theology?" That was the notion that Christianity is a kind of Marxism, which it most definitely isn't. Much of this effort to suborn & subvert the evangelical movement & to get evangelical ministers on board with these secular positions that belong in the political, scientific, & legal realm is the same sort of scheme from basically the same people.

The danger of course is that these celebrity-preachers lend their names, & that of Christ, to leftist big-gov 1-worldist causes dressed up as Christian stewardship & love. However, when you try to tell these people that they're off base & the science they advocate is wrong & the "love" is immoral, THEN they loftily declare that they are concerned with the spiritual realm, & Christians shouldn't be arguing about these things.

Excuse me, if you're going to weigh in AT ALL, it is incumbent on you to educate yourself on what you're advocating & what the Gospel actually says about it. Either get it right, or take this "lofty spiritual" detatchment pose from the START, & SHUT UP. If you get into the arena, you're a target, & if you misuse Scripture & faith you'll be called to account.

Good for them
So evangelical christians who disagree with the most vocal evangelical christians have decided to make their voices be heard as well. Good for them.

Muddying the Evangelical Waters
I can't speak for God but if I know His heart, He must be grieved to see His name painted into a political party. He is above any group of people, any ideology that man creates, as well as any social movement.

God has His own movement and it's a revival that is sweeping this land. Only when all men point to Him will peace come.

Because of this, I cringe whenever I see politicians campaigning from pulpits of churches, which the left is notorious for doing. So, I look forward to that Day of the Lord when he brings this age to a close and institutes His idea of what reality should be.

Plus 100 points
Plus 100 points for secularism!

Wooo hoooo!

Evangelicals tied their wagon to the Republican party and since the Republican party is failing big-time, its only human nature that Americans not to want to be associated with losers.

Too late. Evangelicals cast their lot with tying themselves to politics. Evangelical and Republican are now synonyms.

As John Adams once quipped, "the state will make the church less moral long before the church can make the state more moral."

Nobody likes a loser and Evangelicals are being equated as losers for their association with the Republicans.

Plus 100 points for secularism. Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it. The Evangelicals forgot the history of tying religion to a political party and are now repeating history. Yahoo! Mmm, perhaps these days perhaps I should be going with "Google!"

All this religious squabbling in the public arena sure does give me the warm fuzzies.





Evangelical, bible interpretation
I guess I will have to call myself a conservative evangelical now. Yes there are many ways to interpret the Bible but only one correct one. Look at the text and context, word definitions and use a good translation. The vast majority of the time the Bible interprets itself. We get into trouble when we try to fit current social trends into scripture to endorse our lifestyle or political views.

Omigawd
Holy Heretic!

Infidel57 said
"damn those progressives
If it weren't for them, we could still have slavery, child labor and voting for men only."


And we took take Miley Cyrus to the village square and put her in the stocks.

Angelina could just be stoned to death, according to scripture, she's just an out and out adulterer. (Not Brad, of course, he needs to do the voting)

Smaller and Smaller
The fundamentalist conservative movement has been losing influence for some time. The tipping point may have been the Terri Schiavo debacle, which caused political conservatives to realize that religious fundamentalists would be as happy to abuse government power as anyone else.

The rise of a different kind of evangelical community, frankly, one not dominated by some kind of sexual paranoia, just shrinks the conservative evangelical influence a little more.

Not a second too soon.

Midwest Minister
"Good translation?" "Look at text and context?" This is the same kind of approach that directly resulted in the "many interpretations" of Scripture. Of course, any time you read in translation you're reading an interpretation.

I agree that there is only one True Faith, but it isn't going to be found through sola scriptura (which didn't exist until the 16th century, anyway).

the sinner,

Charles

K'ssandra
Focusing on making yourself a "better" person (whatever that means - how do you judge better without appealing to absolutes?) instead of care for eternity only means that you aren't a Christian. At least, according to the Fathers.

the sinner,

Charles

Atheist Provocateur
You're right, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Rabid secularism, and atheism, were the core of the murder by several states (including the former USSR, Cuba, China, etc.) of well over 100 million people since 1917. Less than 100 years, over 100 million murdered.

Minus 10000 points for secularism!

the sinner,

Charles

Let's hope you're right, Jack
.

re: Charles the Hammer writes:
"Minus 10000 points for secularism!"

Given that then this does make an interesting statement about the appeal of secularism vs. Evangelical Christians these days.

That fact that "Less than 100 years, over 100 million murdered." secularism is more appealing than Evangelical Christianity is a fairly stark statement.

And pretty accurate in my book.

Oh, and you forgot the 40 million abortions. That's 140 million deaths and secularism still is more appealing than Evangelical Christianity.

Yummy.

IMPEACH HOWARD DEAN
Democrat Party in total disarray

Imposed Primary Process disenfranchises voters from BigShot back office AutoCrat PowerCrats that dictate policy in StarChamber secrecy.

DEMOCRATS UNITE - IMPEACH HOWARD DEAN

Title Pause for Concern
Okay, I am confused. According to what little I have read about the "Evangelical Manifesto" it is supposed to be a criticism of the evangelical movement being smirched by political involvement and losing sight of it witness to the secular world. If this is true, why the title "Evangelical Manifesto"? My Oxford Desk Dictionary defines "manifesto" as "public declaration of policy and aims especially political and social." Why give a political title to something that is supposed to be apolitical? Maybe I am wrong but the connotation (social meaning)of "manifesto" usually brings with it the idea of being related to communism. The title alones makes me think there is more going on behind this document than the signatories care to admit.

Charles
"'18,000 Americans who die each year from health care?' ...That statistic is absolutely nonsense."

I read that statistic in the book Overdo$ed America. It's repeated in Sicko which profiles several of those who died. I would hope that a Christian would do a little more research than survey two relatives. The same is true for WHO statistics on GW deaths that just seem to high to be true. You're familiar with "I was hungry but you did not feed me, naked but you did not clothe me..."? Wouldn't that also apply to those who suffer from global warming and lack of health care? Why should anyone take your concerns about abortion seriously when you blow off data on the deaths of walking, talking people?

"And if you're worried about that, ... attend to the sick for free. Or encourage others to do so. But don't think that you are being Christian by forcing others to pay."

First of all, countries with universal health care pay less per capita and enjoy better health. This movement will save others money. Secondly, how are budget allocations made in a democratic forum forcing others to pay? Are you at all concerned with us Christians who have been "forced" to pay for an unprovoked invasion we disagree with? The left may have many problems, but we don't delude ourselves into thinking that our wealth has been "confiscated" when we lose a budget argument. And for the record, deficit spending (taxation without representation) actually is a form of theft.

Atheist
So are you saying atheists have tied their wagon to the demo party if so then you can be proud of all the evil done in the name of atheism. Mao, Hitler, Lenin, stalin etc. etc. More evil has been done in the name of atheism than any other ism.

Chatty Mickey
Read a history book. Mao, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, etc., did not do anything in the name of atheism, they did it in the name of communism, fascism, nationalism, and anti-semitism.


Cam
"Why should anyone take your concerns about abortion seriously when you blow off data on the deaths of walking, talking people?"

---------------

Every once in a while, someone posts something that restores my faith in human intelligence, wisdom, and decency.

Keep it up.

charles
"Rabid secularism, and atheism, were the core of the murder by several states (including the former USSR, Cuba, China, etc.) "

-------

Unlike the thirty years' war, which was just a romp among the pure in heart.

Your statement is nonsensical. In fact, Rabid ideology were the core of murder by several states - communism, fascism, anti-semitism. Rapid ideology in the form of Christianity and Religion was also at the core of murder of Jews, Albigensians, Armenians, Croatians, and Catholics.
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