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Tuesday, April 17, 2007
Janice Shaw Crouse :: Townhall.com Columnist
Jim Wallis: Polarizer or Unifier
by Janice Shaw Crouse
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Jim Wallis has devoted his whole career to trying to force the round peg of leftist ideology into the square hole of biblical orthodoxy. When he wrote his "vision" designed to "transcend" the ideologies of the religious left and right, he ended up further polarizing instead of unifying the two evangelical movements. He rails against the "political language" of the right as well as the tendency of conservative evangelicals, in his opinion, to claim their use of scripture as authoritative. In so doing, Wallis hoists himself on his own petard.

Nobody does leftist religious rhetoric any better than Wallis. This is a man who complains that the war in Iraq "has often been cloaked in the name and symbols of our faith." This is a man who laments any linking of "American imperial designs with God's purposes." Yet, he recently led a so-called "anti-war worship service" at the National Cathedral. His basic thesis was that the war in Iraq is not just a mistake; it is, instead, "morally wrong" and "an offense against God." Does rhetoric get any more messianic or political than that? Have you ever seen anyone who does a better job of cloaking the names and symbols of faith to his positions on contemporary issues? Don't you want to ask who made him "God" and why his pronouncements should be authoritative?

Wallis and his cohorts on the left seem to think that they invented the relationship of religion to social justice. In the late nineteenth century, however, social justice was an integral part of religious faith. For instance, the prohibition movement was grounded in Christian thought. Both Francis Willard and Carrie Nation considered themselves "agents of God" in their fight against "demon rum." Evangelicals were leaders in the abolition movement as famously noted in the life of William Wilberforce and portrayed in the movie, "Amazing Grace." Evangelicals also led prison and labor reform efforts along with building hospitals, caring for the homeless and widows, and establishing colleges.

Even the Moral Majority was formed to counter the disintegration of cultural values –– an integration of religious faith with social reform. For the people and organizations that formed the Moral Majority, their evangelical theology was the driving force behind their concern for social and political issues. Their desire to reverse cultural disintegration was based on Biblical values; there was a total integration of faith and action.

Wallis' writing, on the other hand, seems to spill over from his political ideology; his political philosophy is cloaked in the language of "radical religious roots." The language is there, but the integration of faith and action is purely rhetorical.

In their analysis of Wallis' writing*, Bohn David Lattin and Steve Underhill, point out that in Wallis' book, The Soul of Politics, the first third of the book contains a plea and rationale for reconciliation of the religious left with the religious right, but the final two thirds of the book changes to a "typical liberal polemic against the Religious Right." Their scholarly language boils down to a simple message: Wallis makes no effort to bridge the gap between the two branches of evangelicalism; instead his book consists primarily of "traditional liberal ideology."

Lattin and Underhill describe how Wallis developed a "jeremiad" (a communication structure that defines calamities as signs of God's judgment).

• A jeremiad is based on signs of a crisis or calamity. Wallis vividly describes riots and gang violence. He depicts religious and political leaders as desperate and inept. These "signs" are indication, he claims, of the cultural bankruptcy caused by America's lack of a "coherent and compelling social vision." To his liberal mind, the solution is a change of ideology rather than a need for spiritual transformation.

• The language of Wallis' jeremiad, according to the two analysts, "reveals conservative language masking liberal ideology." For instance, Wallis states that "conservatives . . .echo the mean-spirited diatribe of Pat Buchanan's us-and-them rhetoric." Further, he says, "The Right has failed to generate the moral imperative to challenge the unjust status quo."

• The language has another dimension: the left is described as "caring for the disenfranchised and insist[ing] on a society that is responsible for its people." The word, "reform," is used to mean "change" -- change from an emphasis on "salvation" to an emphasis on "racial and gender justice." Further, Wallis writes about "going beyond" or "transcending" the old ways of spirituality; instead, Evangelicals are urged to move beyond the old "spirituality" to new political involvement that is "moral" and "just."

• There is a vast chasm between the criticisms addressed to the right (13 arguments) as opposed to the left (only two arguments). Clearly, he sees the right as wrong and needing to turn to the left, which is the "moral and just" position to take. For instance, he argued that "it is time for principled conservatives to prove they are not just providing intellectual and political cover for wealth, power and Right-wing self-interest."(emphasis added)

The two scholars conclude that Wallis' hostility toward conservatism prevents any transcendence from taking place. Even Commonweal criticized Wallis' simplistic generalities. Citing a lack of understanding of "the country's complex political history" and a "disturbingly naive" view of foreign policy, Commonweal called Wallis' writing "simpleminded" and declared that he essentially wrote "an extended sermon." The Nation declared that Wallis was "on a roll" by appearing on "Meet the Press" and accused him of the same "triumphalism" and "self-righteousness" that he claimed characterize the right. Further, they declared that Wallis was "translating politics into theology" as a "power play" just like the leaders from the right.

Wallis' latest action –– the "anti-war worship service" at Washington's National Cathedral –– continued the polarization of evangelicals. None of his simplistic slogans about a "revolution of love" and none of his exaggerations and generalities about the church being "united on the issue of peace" will bring unity. Wallis did not cite all the Biblical texts that support social justice because those same texts require bending the knee to the one true God and clearly prohibit human beings from setting ourselves up as "God."

*Bohn David Lattin and Steve Underhill, “The Soul of Politics: The Reverend Jim Wallis’ Attempt to Transcend the Religious/Secular Left and the Religious Right,” The Journal of Communication and Religion, (November 2006), 205-223.

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About The Author
Janice Shaw Crouse is a former speechwriter for George H. W. Bush and now political commentator for the Concerned Women for America Legislative Action Committee.
 
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About Wallis
Wallis is one of the few liberal religious figure who makes himself heard. Usually we have to listen to the nonsense and superstitions of the Falwells, Dobsons, Robertsons and Hagees. Give me Wallis over them any day of the week, though I have trouble with any religious figures who risk identifying their Christian faith with any one political party or view.

As for the Iraq War, can you imagine Jesus blessing the mess we're in - and how we got there? On this issue Wallis is 100% right and the so-called Religious Right is 100% wrong. Now that we've got there, of course, the issue is more complicated. How are we going to get out honorably? I am incensed with those arrogant and ignorant numbskulls who lied us into it. (Bush, I think, didn't lie. His problem was that he believed the lies of others like Chalibi, Perle, etc. I feel that Bush knows better now, but undoing the situation today isn't easy.)

But today the horrendous crime committed at Virginia Tech deserves our attention rather than political chitchat.

Wallis and original sin…

‘[Mr. Wallis] rails against … the tendency of conservative evangelicals, in his opinion, to claim their use of scripture as authoritative.’ –Janice Shaw Crouse


‘And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself’ [Jesus Christ from Luke 24:27].


Our sinful tendency is to have no authority other than ourselves, but even Jesus Christ appealed to the Scriptures as authoritative. (Do a word study on ‘scripture’ in the gospels.) How do we know Christ apart from revelation? Why not expect that those who believe in Him would also appeal to the Scriptures?

God appeals to men as reasonable beings…’Come now, let us reason together’, says the Lord… [Isaiah 1:18] Autonomous reason apart from revelation is the original sin.


How the right went wrong
The Iraq war has challenged the conservative movement's custodianship of America's place in the world, as well as its claim to competence. Reagan restored a sense of America's mission as the "city on a hill" that would be a light to the world and helped bring about the defeat of what he very undiplomatically christened "the evil empire." After 9/11 Bush found his own evil empire, in fact a whole axis of evil. But he hasn't produced Reagan's results: North Korea is nuclear, Iran swaggers across the world stage, Iraq is a morass. "Conservatives are divided on the Iraq war, but there is a growing feeling it was a mistake," says longtime conservative activist and fund-raiser Richard Viguerie. "It's not a Ronald Reagan?type of idea to ride on our white horse around the world trying to save it militarily. Ronald Reagan won the cold war by bankrupting the Soviet Union. No planes flew. No tanks rolled. No armies marched."


so evangelical conservatives
criticize wallis.
what a surprise.

the christian right is scared to death that the christian left may be right.

in is beyond moral belief to think that God approves of pre-emptive war.

religouslib
"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.

"'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

Sounds like a preemptive war to me. Where do you get your knowledge of what God approves or disapproves of, the back of a cereal box?


Roy and Religious-to-Lefty
Jesus said to Pilate that Pilate no power over Jesus that the Father had not given him.

If God did not want the Government to exist it would not exist any longer. Not one stone of the temple stands now, does it?

mr.d
as usual some conservatives forget the new testatment.you might want to read it.

if God approves of pre-emptive war than exactly what are the conditions that he has laid out.

cuba, n.korea, iran, china are all threats to us.
is it your opinion that we have the moral right to literally attack anyone who is threat to us.

i did not know God believed in nationalism.
please quote a new testament verse that verifies that and i will stand corrected.

rl
The NT is silent on the subject. The OT is not. Jesus didn't hesitate at any point to correct Jewish misunderstandings of God's purpose and will as revealed in the OT... and not a single time did He contradict God's commands to destroy grotesque pagan nations that threatened Israel... not only with warfare but with religious corruption.

You are all too quick to base an argument on what Jesus didn't say... but reject arguments based on what He did say. He DID say that a property owner was required to pay a laborer no more than what they mutually agreed to. He did affirm property rights. He did affirm that intimate sexual relations were to be between a man and woman. He did command individuals to give of their own wealth, not that of others.

His followers almost demanded that He become king immediately and throw off the Romans... yet He wouldn't even say it was wrong for the Romans to tax them. He never even spoke against the 1000's of unjust crucifixions that lined the road leading to Jerusalem.

Christ came to establish a spiritual, not earthly kingdom. His teachings were for individual citizens of that spiritual kingdom, not for the establishment of an all controlling gov't seeking "social justice".

Libertarianism is the best, most consistent model of gov't with the NT. It allows man to sovereignly answer his God without gov't interference.

The Christian left is anti-Christ. ("anti" means instead of in this context) They seek to replace genuine devotion to being a disciple of Christ with statism.

sjt18
i respectfully disagree the passages you chose to quote were talking about israel as the promised land.
are you saying america is the promised land and hence anyonewho we feel is immoral or threatening we have biblical justification to attack.

i am sorry sir, but you could not a find a biblical scholar anywhere who would back that interpretaion.

i don't think you have the qualifications to judge the christian left based on the statement that they seek to replace genuine devotion to christ.

if that is what youbelieve you are badly misinformed.

Social Justice
In the late 1200s, Thomas Aquinas proposed the concept of subsidiarity to fix the ills of society. This concept merely taught that it was the local Church, followed by local charities,followed by the local government, followed by the regional church, then regional charities, then the regional government and so on. Only when the problem could not be solved locally was the national government to step in.

The Catholic Church, in its Catechism, clearly says that the federal is not responsible for fixing all of a society's ills (which is what a great deal of religious liberal want). It echos Aquinas' concept of subsidiarity, which sjt18 references. The "government first" mentality rejects God and His Church...it assumes that Christ's Church is not capable of caring for people, and must be circumvented.

To answer religiouslib, Christ's Church has taught that war is not a good thing...but in some cases, is necessary. It is called the Just War doctrine. The Church teaches that any war that does not meet the requirements of Just War is immoral (Catechism paragraph 2309). Any war that does meet the requirements is not immoral, and is appropriate as a last recourse (when all other means have been unsuccessful). The authors of Scripture had several opportunities to include "pacifist polemics" against war and the Roman soldiers. There are none in the written accounts of the Incarnation. When the centurion asks Christ to help him, Christ doesn't spit in his face, call him a "baby-killer", a "murderer", a "terrorist", or any other anti-military rant our troops get called by liberals on a daily basis here. Instead, He helped him. It is no coincidence that Christ passed on the opportunity to rail against war. Our sinful natures mean that war will happen, and He understood that...which is why He taught His Church that only under certain circumstances is it acceptable.

This link might help: http://www.catholic.com/library/just_war_doctrine_1.asp .

mrteachersir
Almost... but I do not believe that gov't and church should be merged like Catholicism has held. I believe that the poor are the responsibility of their "neighbor" by Christ's teaching. I don't believe it is ever legitimate to use gov't force to make someone help the poor.

FTR, as an independent Baptist, I do not believe in the legitimacy of an authoritative church hierarchy above the local level either.

lets see
mr. teacher

i agree to a point,i do not think iraq is a just war.

sjt- i am an american baptist.

here is a synopsis and clerics involved in the religious left, some i agree with some i don't but to say they are anti-christ or do not follow the doctrines of Christ is over the top.


RED LETTER CHRISTIANS CHALLENGE RELIGIOUS RIGHT TO A BROADER, DEEPER DIALOGUE ON FAITH IN AMERICA



Diverse Chorus of Progressive Christian Voices Call on Both Political Parties to Craft Significant Poverty Reduction Plans by 2008 Election



Washington, D.C. — The Red Letter Christians, a newly formed group of progressive religious leaders, launched its Voting Our Values campaign with Sojourners/Call to Renewal at the National Press Club yesterday. The Red Letter Christians, who are a mix of evangelical, mainline Protestant, and Catholic leaders, speak in a diverse chorus of voices on the importance of a broader and deeper national conversation on faith and politics.



“Many of the pressing problems we face in society have a pressing moral character,” said Jim Wallis, founder of Sojourners/Call to Renewal and author of the best-selling book God’s Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn’t Get It. “When we read Jesus’ words in the Bible—the red letters—we cannot ignore his broader moral agenda. It’s arrogant to assume that only two issues, same-sex marriage and abortion, are moral values. By 2008, we want to see the candidates of both parties present their plans for significant poverty reductions.”



Each of the fifteen Red Letter Christians attending the press conference shared their thoughts on why they decided to join this new effort, some of which follow.



“We are eager to put the actual words of Jesus at the heart of our national dialogue. We seek to build a society that works for the needs of all, not just an elite few.” —Alexia Kelley, principal founder of Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good


“Such narrow conversations on moral values that emphasize abortion and gay marriage can only be undertaken by people who are disengaged from addressing the real challenges faced by American families. These wedge issues allow ultraconservatives to hide in their offices and cower behind their pulpit, rather than stand beside the people that need them most. That’s the difference between prophetic ministry and pathetic ministry. The convening of Red Letter Christians allows us to draw attention to the words of Jesus and hear what he has to say about justice, liberation, and equality for all people.” —Rev. Romal J. Tune, President and CEO of Clergy Strategic Alliance, LLC


“There’s a real danger when faith is identified too closely with a particular ideology, or in the recent case, the current administration.” —Dr. Randall Balmer, professor of American religious history at Columbia University


“People in poverty need more than sermons about personal responsibility and prosperity plans.” —Rev. Robert Michael Franklin, Jr., professor of social ethics at Emory University


“Mainline Protestants in America are concerned with the intermixture of church and state.They want a lively discussion on faith and politics, but they do not want a Christian America or government. Instead, they want Christians to participate in the conversation about what it means to vote their values.”—Dr. Diana Butler Bass, Virginia Theological Seminary adjunct faculty


“We challenge the Religious Right to do something about the poor of this country. If they’re really serious about reducing the number of abortions, then overcoming poverty must be a central goal. America is losing its moral stature with the rest of the world.” —Dr. Tony Campolo, founder of the Evangelical Association for the Promotion of Education


“Christianity should be solving problems, instead of exacerbating them.” —Michael Battle, associate professor of theology at Virginia Theological Seminary


“I am terribly frustrated with our political discourse. We polarize and paralyze and somehow miss the deep and profound questions that need to be raised that are now matters of our own survival.” —Brian McLaren, founding pastor of the Cedar Ridge Community Church


“What is at stake right now in the world is not just the reputation of America but the identity of Christianity.” —Shane Claiborne, founding partner of The Simple Way Community


“The Red Letter Christians are about a different kind of partisanship: a partisanship for peace, and on behalf of the least, the last, and the lost among us.” —Adam Taylor, director of campaigns and organizing at Sojourners/Call to Renewal


“An increasing number of young Christians are disillusioned with the polarities of left and right, whether it be in politics or the church. This group is about pushing through the polarities into God’s future.” —Tony Jones, national coordinator of Emergent Village


For more information on the Red Letter Christians and media interviews with its members, visit http://www.RedLetterChristians.org or call Jack Pannell at 202/745-4614.



###








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rl
"sjt18
i respectfully disagree the passages you chose to quote were talking about israel as the promised land."

Not exactly sure what you meant to say here. Yes. The passages were about the promised land.

Further, God used unprovoked invasions by other powers to chastise Israel and even moved kings' hearts toward it.

"are you saying america is the promised land and hence anyonewho we feel is immoral or threatening we have biblical justification to attack."

No. I am saying that the Bible doesn't speak directly one way or the other but that the only principle that might apply affirms a nation's right to attack a threat... and specifically a threat to the survival of its "righteous" form of gov't. Do you suggest that the USC does not establish a more righteous gov't than radical Islamists would?

"i am sorry sir, but you could not a find a biblical scholar anywhere who would back that interpretaion."

I'm not exactly sure what interpretation you are talking about unless you've somehow misconstrued what I've said as seems to be implied... but FTR the idea of a "just war" is fairly old. Attacking an enemy that had threatened you and presumably had the power to deliver a devastating first strike attack is an extension of that.

While I don't agree with meddling motives like Iraq has turned into, I do believe we have a right to prevent someone from pulling a WMD version of 9/11 even to the point of removing men like Saddam who by many if not all accounts purposed to do just that.

"i don't think you have the qualifications to judge the christian left based on the statement that they seek to replace genuine devotion to christ."

And what do you base that "thought" on? To associate with the political left in America today, one must dismiss much of what Christ did say in favor of things He didn't say... but are attributed to Him anyway.

"if that is what youbelieve you are badly misinformed."

Does the Christian left compromise on these issues in the name of a concept not to be found as a mission of the church in either the NT or OT, namely "social justice" by gov't imposition?: abortion, homosexual marriage/affirmation, humanistic indoctrination of children, sloth, illegitimacy, gov't dependency (as opposed to God dependency), sexual depravity, sexual promiscuity, blurring of male/female distinctions,...

The left has advocated gov't policies that either directly or indirectly caused all of these things in my life time.

You suggested that Christ would not have supported Iraq... but we don't know, the NT doesn't speak to it. We do KNOW however that He would not support actions that led to more illegitimacy, irresponsibility, sloth, or depravity.

sjt- i am an american baptist.
I'm not surprised. I've known several and have wished that if they (not you personally for I don't know) weren't going to believe any of the Baptist distinctives, they would stop calling themselves Baptist. I'm pretty sure ABC was the theologically liberal group out of the Northern Baptists, right?

The ABC folks I've run across didn't hold much to the great Baptist Confessions that historically define who we are. They more generally compared to old liberal mainline protestants of the early 20th century who espoused the social gospel and eventually became Christian in name and form only.

"Baptist" was historically a label, not a denomination. Like Christian, it was meant to be negative but was accepted by the accused. It has always had defining characteristics and not membership at its base. Again, it would be convenient if those who don't hold the distinctives would just change what they call themselves.

religiouslib
religiouslib:
"i don't think you have the qualifications to judge the christian left based on the statement that they seek to replace genuine devotion to christ."

When Christian "progressives" like Wallis promote greater government roles in helping people, they proclaim the sovereignty of the state, and the ineptness of the Christ's Church.

So-called progressives are calling for policies that are eerily similar to those of the Socialist Party and the communists in Eastern Europe. In case you need reminding, these parties are atheist, and seek to defeat God and His Church.

There are much more effective means of caring for the poor, conserving resources, and fighting injustice than with government intervetion. Those methods are alive and well in localized charities like local food pantries and Habitat for Humanity.

You cannot split the Bible into two parts, and give special credence to only one part. Both are the inerrant Word of God, and both have equal authority. You are selective about which parts have authority, and which don't. Christ was the "son of David", and David was a war hero, "who was of the same mind as God." This same David who led wars against the Phillistines and other aggressors, was blessed to have a dynasty from which Christ came. This same David, who in the course of war killed many people, danced for joy when the Ark returned to Jerusalem, and was blessed.

Holy Cow
sjt18: the Church has never held or proposed that the state and church be united. This is obvious by reading the early Fathers and other Church Doctors like Thomas Aquinas. To do so would destroy the freedom to choose that God gave us. While this was never officially promoted, I can't say it didn't happen. In the Middle Ages, on paper both were separate. In reality, the complexities (and lures) of the feudal system brought many Church leaders into politics and the lines were blurred. Likewise, the prospects of an education, advancement, and influence led many younger nobles into the Church. Likewise, the establishment of the Papal States in the late Middle Ages and the Early Modern Era led to the rise of the corrupt popes of the late 1400s. If anything, one could argue that in the Middle Ages, it was politics that marred the Church, not the other way around (providing we understand that many clerics were themselves wealthy politicians). The various reform movements of the Middle Ages sought to remove the government influence on the Church (the Investiture Controversy in the 1050s comes to mind). Likewise, the Church has always taught that the poor are the Church's (and Christians) responsibility, not the government's. The Catechism is quite clear on this.

Religiouslib,

I didn't read all of your last post...I got bored. I did see Tony Campolo...I used to like him, but he's a socialist. He, like Wallis, fails to stand up for moral imperatives. Rather than stand up for the right of the unborn (the most innocent and under-priveleged in the nation) to live, both have ignored the nearly 1.4 million murders (largely for selfish, irresponsible women) in favor of raising taxes to help the poor. When the Bible explicitly says that homosexuality is a sin, should all Christians speak out against homosexual "marriage"? The New Testament speaks more of the sinfulness of homosexuality than it does taking other people's money to give to the poor. Wallis and Campolo speak more of stealing my money than protect innocent life or protecting the holyness of the Sacrament of Marriage.

"You will always have the poor." Didn't Christ say that? "You shall not murder." Didn't Christ say that as well? If I am not mistaken, Christ raised three people from the dead, but didn't make any poor person rich (or take money from the rich to give to the rich. Instead, he gave them the means to overcome their poverty (like sight, or freedom from leprosy). His parables spoke about accepting wages agreed upon, and generously giving of

“Mainline Protestants in America are concerned with the intermixture of church and state.They want a lively discussion on faith and politics, but they do not want a Christian America or government. Instead, they want Christians to participate in the conversation about what it means to vote their values.”—Dr. Diana Butler Bass, Virginia Theological Seminary adjunct faculty

Dr. Butler is missing the fact that "Mainline Protestants" are losing ground, while Catholicism and fundementalism are gaining ground. According to sociologist James Henslin, this is because the Church and the various fundementalist groups reject the liberalizing of morals in the main-stream churches, and many people are embracing the traditional Christian values upheld in fundamentalist and Catholic churches. She also is oblivious to the fact that historically and demographically, the US is a Christian nation. For goodness sake, in the early days of the republic, weekly church services were held in the House of Representatives hall. Nearly 70% of our population identifies themselves as Christians...how is that not a Christian nation? The domographics have shifted...its no wonder Rove strove to court the fundamentalists and (orthodox) Catholics...they comprise the bulk of voters among Christians in the US.

correction
I said "(or take money from the rich to give to the rich. Instead, he gave them the means to overcome their poverty (like sight, or freedom from leprosy)."

It should be: "(or take money from the rich to give to the poor). Instead, he gave them the means to overcome their poverty (like sight, or freedom from leprosy). "

rl
Concerning the quotes you gave, I don't think there is a conservative Christian that wouldn't agree that relieving poverty is a Christian duty. What we disagree with is the assumption that a) that means we should promote big gov't solutions and b) that we have a right to force someone else to finance the obligation Christ gave us as individuals and a church.

Interesting that one person even claims to not want a "Christian America" (which is telling in and of itself). Hopefully, the meant a Christian gov't... but if they did then they are specifically contradicting themselves by advocating that gov't should do the Church's work and bidding.

How can you claim NOT to want a union of church and state then say that one should support massive gov't "Christian" programs if you are a Christian?

BTW, there are so many fallacious assumptions, theology, philosophy, and leaps of logic in those quotes I don't even know where else to turn next.

Abortion for instance- most abortions are not had because a woman has absolutely no means to support the child... much less because they've gone to a "conservative" church for help and been turned away. To imply that is either ignorance or purposeful deception. My church is small and of modest means but I can assure you that I would not turn a young woman away who needed help.

The biggest fallacy is the whole assumption that because Christ gave the Church a responsibility for the poor that means we should automatically support any means by which that might be accomplished.

The Bible NEVER suggests the notion that the means justify the ends. In fact, the Bible teaches we are to focus on the means (following biblical command and principle) and leave the ends up to God.

That points out another fallacy of the Christian left. God didn't make liberals the Judge of what is "good" or "just". They have no moral basis for saying one has too much and the other has too little unless the rich have directly violated the law, infringed the God given "RIGHTS" of someone else, or they have a direct biblical mandate (ie. commands concerning the taking of life or sexual morality).

My bottom line- I do not oppose abortion because it is immoral. I oppose it because it negates a responsibility that goes with a freedom that is necessary if freedom is going to be kept... by giving someone the privilege of denying another person the right to live to avoid a consequence of a freely chosen action.

I do not oppose homosexual "rights". They can do whatever they want on their own property. I oppose their doing whatever they want then demanding that gov't force everyone to accept them... or worse yet demanding gov't suppress the property and association rights of others so they don't have to deal with being discriminated against because of their behavior choices. BTW, Everyone legitimately discriminates against others whose behavior contradicts their beliefs... that's an effect of freedom and individual rights.

Church state union
"sjt18: the Church has never held or proposed that the state and church be united."

That simply isn't true. During the Holy Roman Empire, the Pope was effectively the civil and religious head of state. Any monarch that ruled was "under" his authority and required his blessing. Progressively the monarchs of various European states resisted more and occasionally had the better of a particular Pope. However from about 700 AD or earlier until the earliest rumblings of the Reformation, the Catholic Church held power over both religious and civil affairs in almost all corners of Europe.

Choice
mrteachersir, The RCC also doesn't have a very good history on freedom of conscience either. Numerous groups were persecuted or even snuffed out by armies acting on RCC authority. Heretics were killed by various means. Most of the Christians in America today to include many Catholics would be considered "heretics" by the pre-Reformation RCC. I would definitely be executed for refusing to accept the merit of infant baptism, the papacy, mariolatry, praying to saints, the Mass, transubstantiation, and more.

The RCC prohibited the translation of Bibles into any language other than Latin rendering an independent, personal faith all but impossible. Only the elite knew Latin... and only the elite were educated.

Denying the "real" intolerance practiced by the RCC for a large chunk of Western history isn't honest.

FTR, yes, I know Protestants persecuted as well. The last martyr in England was a Baptist killed in 1611 under the warrant of the Anglican Church and its head, King James.

What I have never heard of is a case where a Baptist used gov't or force to persecute someone who wouldn't submit to their beliefs.

God and Aquinas
It's true that the Bible says that God told Joshua, Saul, etc., to kill every man, woman and child of various tribes whose land the ancient Israelites wanted to take. Frankly, that't not any god I would worship, a god who would include 'thou shalt not kill' in the Ten Commandments and then order his 'chosen people' to commit genocide. Sounds more like Hitler than my God. Besides, God is a respecter of all people equally, without discrimination based on race, religion, or ethnicity. This probably was put in the scriptures to provide 'divine sanction' for ruthless and rampant mass murder.

No wonder Christians are confused when they look to the Old Testament rather than the Sermon on the Mount. Remember how Jesus said" "Ye have heard it said, love your neighbor but hate your enemies. But I say unto you....." etc. See Matt. 5, Luke 6.

Now, someone mentioned AQUINAS as though he were someone to provide us wisdom. He did write many interesting and useful things - many volumes. But consider this. He said that heresy was so evil that heretics must be delivered up to the civil authorities and executed because their attempt to 'corrupt' souls was worse than murdering bodies! How democratic is that? For centuries the Catholic Church adopted the position that it (and only it) should be permitted in a properly-run nation. Just recall the Inquisition for a moment. Some of my ancestors had to flee Belgium when they became Huguenots 400+ years ago rather than face certain death for their faith. Remember the massacre of St. Bartholomew when thousands of French Protestants were put upon and murdered - at a wedding, no less! The Pope ordered a special Te Deum sung to celebrate this 'great victory'.

By the way, this is not to excuse repression of any faith. Protestants weren't always saints in the way they treated Catholics, either. But Protestantism is inherently much more democratic than Catholicism with its top-down hierarchy, both medieval and authoritarian.

Following the teachings of Jesus is the route for serious Christians. Hating no one, seeking reconciliation with everyone - and peace, within ourselves, in our homes, and with the world at large.

To the AMERICAN BAPTIST who has responded: I am not a Baptist and Baptists come in all varieties. I have a special fondness for the ABC. Sadly too many Baptists seem to have strayed from the original position of Roger Williams and hanker for a quasi-theocracy where their views will dominate.

Our main focus today, however, should be on the victims of violence - at Virginia Tech, in Iraq, and wherever and whomever. They need our prayers and our earnest efforts to make a better world - no, never perfect of course, but better than it is today.

Keep smiling - if that's possible in these conditions today.

sjt18
couple quick things

you say "That points out another fallacy of the Christian left. God didn't make liberals the Judge of what is "good" or "just".

i couldn't agree more and i don't think most
Christian liberals think they are the judge although their interpretation of biblical passages of what the role of a Christian in society is.

i find it interesting that you have, in effect, judged them and found them wanting based on your interpretation of biblical passages. hmmmm
you are right and they are wrong because????

there are many biblical scholars theologians have come to different conclusions than you. these are sincere religious individuals who spend their life dedicated to serving Christ. you may not agree with them but to judge them as anti-christ as you put it earlier is not exactly an argument for your rightness in this discussion.

as far as the comment about not wanting it to be a "christian nation" is exactly about not wanting a theocracy.

you have decided the Christian left is not religious enough. you have decided the RCC is not religious enough.
i think this is called hubris.
Pride goeth before the fall.

roy
i am impressed with your knowledge of the american baptist covention. i come from a family of ministers in that convention and it has been a wonderful church family to be involved with.

i mean you even know who roger williams is.


the interesting part to me is that the american baptist split from the southern baptist convention before the civil war because the southern baptists used the old testament to justify slavery.

and the southern baptists are now the core of the conservative evangelical movement.

not saying they still hold those beliefs it is just an intriguing evolution.

religiouslib
Yes, I like the ABC. My paternal family were French-Canadians Catholics who became Baptists many, many years ago. They came to the USA, partly to escape religious hostility in Quebec. (Today Quebec Catholicism is extremely weak - as is Canadian Christianity in general, sad to report.)

Anyway, probably would have been Baptist but there was no Baptist Church in the small village where my grandparents settled.

I'm aware of the split over slavery, which also effected Methodists and Presbyterians before the Civil War. Both of them managed to eventually get together again. It's sad that the SBC is both so strong and so infected by fundamentalism. Hopefully time will change that, and there is some evidence here and there that that process may be starting. The more education should mean the more independent and open-minded thinking.

roy
thank you for sharing that it was very interesting to me.

you may be right about education changing some of the evangelical attitudes, look at this.


Bible-quoting Kennedy joins clergy in call for immigration reform


CAPITOL HILL Religious leaders have joined a Bible-quoting Senator Edward Kennedy in calling for comprehensive immigration reform.

At a Capitol news conference, the Massachusetts Democrat quoted the Old and New Testaments, prompting an amused Senator Lindsey Graham to call him "Monsignor Kennedy."

But Graham said congressional Republicans are ready to work with Democrats and the White House to pass immigration reform that includes an earned path to citizenship for illegal immigrants.

A Hispanic Evangelical leader, the Reverend Samuel Rodriguez, said that could include learning English and paying fines along with tighter border security.

A Southern Baptist leader, the Reverend Richard Land, said Christians and their churches should "reach out to meet the physical, emotional and spiritual needs of all immigrants."

Roy
"It's true that the Bible says that God told Joshua, Saul, etc., to kill every man, woman and child of various tribes whose land the ancient Israelites wanted to take. Frankly, that't not any god I would worship,"

Then what is the value of your input? Not that you don't have a right, you do. But if you wouldn't worship the God of the Bible then what is the value of what you might say concerning the actions or attitudes of those who purpose to do so?

"a god who would include 'thou shalt not kill' in the Ten Commandments and then order his 'chosen people' to commit genocide."

A couple of things.

First, that is a classic misunderstanding of "thou shalt not kill". The context is murder and unjust killing... not war, not execution. If you really want to pick on "thou shalt not kill", you should have chosen the broad reasons for capital punishment given in the OT... which included being disobedient to your parents as a child.

Second, the people God commanded the Israelites to kill were exceedingly wicked. The worship of the female fertility goddesses involved incredible perversion as "rites". The worship of Molech included heated a statue up with a fire underneath then sacrificing a child in Molech's outstretched hands... by frying it to death. They were violent and excessively depraved. They weren't innocents who suffered genocide just because they happened to be in the way.

Judged?
"i find it interesting that you have, in effect, judged them and found them wanting based on your interpretation of biblical passages. hmmmm
you are right and they are wrong because????"

No. They are wrong because they propose an unbiblical means to achieve an unbiblical mandate by effectively making themselves God over whether one person has earned too much or another has too little. That's a plan presentation of the facts... requiring no judgment by me.

If you believe I am wrong then it would be simple enough to prove without the misdirection. Simply show where Christ made Christians the lords over the treasuries of the unwilling. Show where Christ at any point taught that Christians should treat the property of unbelievers as their own.

More
"there are many biblical scholars theologians have come to different conclusions than you. these are sincere religious individuals who spend their life dedicated to serving Christ."

Of course there are. And so long as they hold to the biblical fundamentals without compromise, you can call them "sincere Christians" instead of just religious individuals. However, history has proven that when the church leagues with gov't the way liberals propose... the church declines or is corrupted. The most recent case involved the mainline Protestants of the early 20th century. The fruit of their departure from both theological and social fundamentalism has been the decline seen over the past several decades.

Asking unbelievers to do the work Christ called believers to do will not work.

"you may not agree with them but to judge them as anti-christ as you put it earlier is not exactly an argument for your rightness in this discussion."

I explained that "anti" means instead of. The shoe definitely fits. They propose a solution that is centered on gov't and not Christ. They propose a solution that is not "Christian" nor glorifying to Christ instead of obeying his command to us as individual believers.

Christ told the rich young ruler to sell all HE had and give it to the poor... not solicit the Romans to tax others and give it to the poor.

"as far as the comment about not wanting it to be a "christian nation" is exactly about not wanting a theocracy."

The "nation" in classic terms is the people, not the government. We should want a Christian nation but not a theocracy.

But that is a red herring anyway. We are nowhere near anything like a "theocracy". The Religious Right could never a agree on a single theology. We agree that gov't should not infringe on what the founders considered the domain of religion and that gov't should not be hostile to religion or attempt to suppress public expression of it.

Having religion shape one's worldview and thus their political views IS NOT imposition of a theocracy nor an establishment of a state church. If you have any interest in knowing what Jefferson really meant and believed about religion in public life, see the "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom". He considered it one of the 3 greatest accomplishments of his life... if written today, the left would accuse him of being a member of the ever so dangerous religious right.

For instance, he clearly states that "rights" come from God... that suggestion drives liberals nuts today.

"you have decided the Christian left is not religious enough."

Nope. I've decided they are wrong about the role of gov't and how biblical commands and principles should lead a Christian to influence his gov't in a democratic constitutional republic. I have "decided" and you have not disproven that the ideas promoted by this "religiuos" left are not biblical sound.

"you have decided the RCC is not religious enough."

Nope. I have read what they believe and compared it to what the Bible says. I have read their history- good, bad, and neutral.

They killed dissenters by ones and by thousands. They did incredible acts of kindness, charity, and piety.

BTW, if you are baptistic in your beliefs then you should have a problem with their soteriology since it is in direct contradiction with that of Baptists

"i think this is called hubris.
Pride goeth before the fall."

So let me get this straight. I disagree with you and the religious left. I provide my reasoning pointing to biblical principles and logic. You don't like it but don't present a rebuttal other than to claim that some unnamed scholars must have good reason to disagree with me... You dismiss my position and reasons with a liberal, greater than thou hand wave... then declare me the one with "hubris".

If you believe that the liberal position being declared is biblically consistent then state your case without abusing the text. Otherwise, it can only be assumed that you all base this position on what you think the Bible and Christ should have said.

Just do this one thing. Show me any biblical justification for a Christian using gov't as a proxy to take property by force from the one who owns it to give it to someone else.

I can show you lots of places where Christ taught people should give. I can show you places where he and his followers gave... so where is the NT example of what you want Christians to support?

sjt18
first let me say i appreciate your civility and the fact that you are will to debate this issue.
i vehemently disagree with you and will argue strenuously but i never mean disrespect towards you because we are brothers in Christ in the final analysis.

having said that i do think you are judgemental towards those who disagree with you.
but that is a matter of emphasis and semantics so i will let it be.

here are some quotes that i think lend credence to my argument that as a society, especially a christian society we have obligations beyond our own personal giving.

He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich--both come to poverty."


Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."

-Proverbs 31:8-9
if as you maintain we are to only "personally" help the poor than who is God demanding we speak up to.

"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life."

-1 Timothy 6:17-19

again, my friend, if we have no societal obligation to stand up for the poor who are we to command. now "command" is a very strong word.
that indicates to me that the Lord God wants us to be pro-active in speaking to the rich about the poor.


"Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court, for the LORD will take up their case and will plunder those who plunder them."

-Proverbs 22:22-23

now we are talking about a civil institution here.you have said God does not want Christians involved in societal institutions, at least that is the impression you leave, and this is a direct order from God.

The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern."

-Proverbs 29:7
how do you interpret "justice for the Poor", again justice is a civil matter not a religious one specifically.

"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land."

-Deuteronomy 15:11

again God command us to help the poor in our land, you can disagree but that sounds like an order to help the poor as a society to me.

sjt18

what i don't understand about your position is that there is no doubt in my mind that you are a devout and sincere Christian but in your zeal to prove that God does not want government to help the poor and needy you get angry and use terms like steal and confiscate.
on the other hand you have not provided any biblical context where God explicitly says government or society should NOT help the poor.




Long two part response, forgive me
I appreciate the response and will enjoy responding. My intent is not to judge people but ideals. But a person's ideals and beliefs do define who they are, what motivates them, and what they ultimately will do.

"He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich--both come to poverty."

How is it oppressing the poor to employ people in an enterprise that supports both you and them in the production of goods and services that may benefit many others? You're going to have to provide a better exegesis to say it somehow points to gov't force.

"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."

Who was beings spoken to? Do the poor and needy have "right" to a living out of someone else's labors? Charity? Yes. Entitlement/right? No.

This would apply to cases where the rich garner more respect at the bench of law. That's why we are supposed to be a nation of laws, not men... though liberals didn't think so when there was no doubt Bill Clintion was guilty of perjury.

"-Proverbs 31:8-9
if as you maintain we are to only "personally" help the poor than who is God demanding we speak up to."

The judges and rulers for the "rights" of the poor. A "poor" person has a "right" not to have a rich man's henchmen take what they have... and a right to NOT have gov't pick their pocket.

""Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life."

-1 Timothy 6:17-19"

The context is within the church. This further supports my case. God commands those within the church to give. This provides no support whatsoever for the notion that gov't should make the unwilling give or that the giving should be through any other institution other than the church.

You can't strip scripture of its context then mold it to your purpose.

"again, my friend, if we have no societal obligation to stand up for the poor who are we to command. now "command" is a very strong word.
that indicates to me that the Lord God wants us to be pro-active in speaking to the rich about the poor."

Context, context, context. Paul was writing to Timothy, the young pastor. The direct context is what a pastor should say to those of means within their congregation. Unless you truly do propose a theocracy, a pastor has no right to command the unbelieving or unwilling, do they?


""Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court, for the LORD will take up their case and will plunder those who plunder them."

-Proverbs 22:22-23

now we are talking about a civil institution here."

And specifically not talking about charity or wealth redistribution. A man is not exploiting the poor if he possesses or earns honest wealth and decides NOT to give it to others. That is a sin but again unless you want a theocracy, he has a right. More importantly, such a man should never be compelled to share with someone whose condition he believes is the direct result of his own sinful habits.

IOW's, a private church/person can say, you do this, I do that. Gov't only looks at an income statement and declares someone entitled. It can't rightly judge their morals.

Second part

"you have said God does not want Christians involved in societal institutions, at least that is the impression you leave, and this is a direct order from God."

I do not believe that God wants Christians to use force to make someone who is not a Christian or who is unwilling to redistribute their property to those who have no "right" to it.

OTOH, I believe Christians should be much more generous with what we do to relieve the poor and rescue those with self-destructive lifestyles through a combination of the gospel and charity.

I believe that a Christian can and in many cases should do this through various "societal institutions"... just not gov't and not by imposing on others.

"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern."

-Proverbs 29:7"

Please show one passage in all of scripture that says "justice" is taking property from one person without provocation and giving it to another without merit... especially when in many cases the second person is directly responsible in a moral way for their own condition.

I do care about "justice" for the poor. I do care about the suffering of the poor. I do not find a legitimate link between those things either biblically or practically with socialism.

"how do you interpret "justice for the Poor", again justice is a civil matter not a religious one specifically."

Upholding their God given rights. They do not have a "right" to the property of those who do not wish to share with them.

""There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land."

-Deuteronomy 15:11

again God command us to help the poor in our land, you can disagree but that sounds like an order to help the poor as a society to me."

Even if you are correct then you are suggesting a "theocratic" state action.

But the context is to the individuals within a theocracy.

"sjt18

what i don't understand about your position is that there is no doubt in my mind that you are a devout and sincere Christian but in your zeal to prove that God does not want government to help the poor and needy you get angry and use terms like steal and confiscate."

I'm not angry. Those aren't angry terms... they're accurate descriptions.

We live in a democratic society. When gov't acts, it acts supposedly as our representative. It is different for totalitarian forms of gov't where the judgment of one or a small group rules. In those gov'ts, that group does own and is sovereign over all property and people. Our Constitution says different. It says individuals are sovereign over themselves and their property.

If I took something from you by force and gave it to a homeless person, that is stealing. It is a sin and a crime. If I hired someone to do it for me, it is still the same. If we lived in the same community and I and the 50.1% of the others voted to have someone take from you to give to the poor, IT IS STILL STEALING.

Neither you nor I have a RIGHT to tell the greedy, selfish banker down the street what he MUST do with his wealth even if our moral sense tells us he should give some to the poor.

"on the other hand you have not provided any biblical context where God explicitly says government or society should NOT help the poor."

Yours is an argument from silence and has no merit.

If you told your son to go to the store and did not specifically tell him NOT to go to grandma's house... should he assume that it is OK to go to grandma's house instead?

God gave us a mission concerning the poor. He gave us a method concerning the poor... and nowhere does he prescribe that we should use gov't even by democracy to force someone else to do the work for us.

We as Christians don't give enough. However, that does not justify unbiblical, man-centered means for bridging the gap and certainly doesn't give us title to someone else's wealth.

rl
One basic underlying problem of your view is that you extrapolate what the Bible commands God's people to do in both the OT and NT to a command to force everyone in society to obey those commands.

Please tell me how this is not a violation of the establishment clause. How do you suppose you have a right as a Christian to force an uncharitable atheist give to the poor on any except his own terms?

I forgot to mention
I don't agree with most so called conservatives concerning illegals. From a practical sense, we can't pursue them successfully. From a human sense, most are productive, peaceful, and law abiding (other than their entry). I don't think it is undermining the rule of law to make a means for them to become legal... so long as that legislation is accompanied by statutes that make it a federal felony to employ an illegal OR sign them up for a social program. The law should be complete with stiff mandatory fines and imprisonment.

The only way to stop illegal immigration is to dry up the fountain that encourages them to come illegally.

We should also set up ways to expedite approval for migrant Mexican laborers.

Pride
I gave that some thought. As Christians, we should always be on guard concerning this... CS Lewis even said that's what sets us apart from other religions. We have the ability to see our own pride.

But honestly, I think this analogy/parable applies:

Three neighbors are visiting. The one announces that he just got a $50K increase in stock dividends and that he's going to buy a sports car with it. Both of the other men being Christians suggest/believe that he should give some to charity... but he is determined to spend it all on himself. The one neighbor says, "I disagree with you but that's your right".

The other says, "No. If you won't share, I'll band myself to likeminded people and the "poor" and force you to share through our gov't." The first Christian disagrees again saying, "I disagree with his selfish attitude too but you have no right to his wealth. Our duty is to preach and ask... not to force obedience". At the same time, both Christians live comfortably and have things they could give up.

Which Christian is motivated by "hubris" or perhaps even some envy?

sjt
real busy today, can't spend much time but i guess where we differ is on this.

even if i accept your vehement arguments why society shouldn't be forced to "steal" as you say from others, i certainly do believe that it should be a moral issue and advanced by Christians and others to convince the majority of citizens that it is a moral imperative to help those who need it.

i have studied this issue quite a bit, and i know for a fact that Christian churches simply cannot bear the brunt of the needs by those who "legitimately" need help. i went back and read the scripture i quoted you in context and i still cannot get past the "command" part.
to quote the most vital to me:

Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land."

"in your land", that indicates a national effort to
me.

now i am not a socialist who believes in massive re-distribution of wealth but i do think the national government should be used to organize and deliver services to those who are truely needy.
there has to be a creative way to do this. i kind of liked bushs faith based idea but it was to selective, let the faith based department be the organizer rather than the delivery system.


my own church does much but it barely puts a dent in the needs of the community around us.

i like what you say about illegals.
i feel much the same.i live in san diego and many who post here have only seen the illegals at home depot which are a small minority of illegals and do not represent the majority of church going, family oriented mexicans that i encounter every day. not just illegals but mexican americans.

i have to go and i will leave with the "i respectfully agree to disagree" but i think we both have gained some respect for each other(at least i have for you) and that we are both sincere Christian individuals who are doing their best to do the Lords work based on our faith, prayer and heart.

sjt18
To many of us who view ourselves as dedicated Christians, much of the Old Testament is passe, invalid. The stories of cruelty - the willful massacre of whole cities and tribes because god told the ancient Hebrews to do it - such stories tell us that the concept of god held by the writers of such stories was badly warped.

You say that they were sinful people. All of them? Even the women and children, tiny babies included. Sounds more like Hitler than my God. We condemn genocide in World War II, in Rwanda, now in Darfur, so what makes it okay for the ancient Hebrew invaders to slaughter all the people they conquered? At the least, this was 'collective punishment'. God might order the punishment of those who committed atrocities, like sacrificing babies, but how does wholesale killing of those babies by an invading army help those little ones? Outrageous. People used the Bible to argue for all sorts of evil in the past, including human slavery. The Bible seems to justify that as well.

We think of Cho as being a fiend down at Virginia Tech when he killed 32 students. What about a God who ordered the killing of thousands because of their ethnicity?!

Re-read Ex. 21 and Deut. 22-23 as examples of wierd laws supposedly delivered by God. For example: "Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death." Or, "No b---- shall enter the assembly of the Lord, even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord." Now, seriously, would the loving God who sent Jesus Christ give such wild and unjust orders?

That's all. Those who worship the Bible, every jot and tittle, are corrupting the Christian faith and causing millions of reasonable people to reject it as well. It makes us look like a bunch of primitive pagans who worship a wrathful tyrant rather than the God of love.

Think about it. I'm sure you're smart enough if you approach the subject with an open and honest mind.


rl
First off, thanks for your demeanor and grace. It is very becoming. I would also like to apologize for an earlier "I'm not surprised" comment. That was uncalled for.

"even if i accept your vehement arguments why society shouldn't be forced to "steal" as you say from others, i certainly do believe that it should be a moral issue and advanced by Christians and others to convince the majority of citizens that it is a moral imperative to help those who need it."

I whole-heartedly agree. Christ didn't separate the gospel from healing and feeding though. With gov't action, you can't combine the two.

I disagree concerning the ability of churches and individuals to do a better job than gov't. I believe in a God that will provide when you devote yourself to doing the right things in spite of what it looks like.

What would you think of this idea? Have tax credit up to 50% for donations to charitable activities that directly replace gov't entitlements. If a church run charity purchased a duplex and housed former section 8 tennants then any contributor could get a tax credit for all money they donated directly to that charity up to 50% of their bill.

I actually like the "Fair Tax" better but if we are serious about helping the poor... then this works.

Charities are req'd by law to disperse 80%. The last time I heard the only Federal program that approaches this is Social Security. Which needs to be changed because of the simple demographic nightmare that's coming if isn't. Even then, Soc Sec isn't a get something for nothing program for most people. Most pay in their whole lives... basically investing in the notion that the next generation will be larger and richer.

Alternate Soc Sec Plan: Allow contributors to make direct payments to qualified recipients rather than sending the money through the Federal bureaucracy and risking it to Congress' "borrowing" habits. At the end of the year, the taxpayer simply supply the bank deposits in the name of the beneficiary... or else let their company do it and account for it.

I think our nation would be healthier if we became more dependent on each other and less dependent on lying politicians.


Roy
You apparently operate on the misconception that it is your prerogative to judge God. It isn't. You also seem to operate under the illusion that man deserves mercy, grace, or "fairness"... he doesn't.

God would have been "just" had He destroyed all of mankind. He certainly would have been "just" in destroying man rather than letting Christ die on the Cross.

The OT is not easy to understand in all respects but it is impossible to understand the gospel of grace in the NT properly without the context of the OT's reliance on Law. The sinfulness of what you poopoo as overly harsh or unfair in the OT hasn't changed from God's just standpoint. Those are still sins worthy of wrath. They are still sins that will incur wrath.

You seem to have the idea that sin isn't that bad and sinners aren't really all that guilty. Instead of scoffing at how seriously God instructed the Israelites to treat sin... perhaps you should consider just how serious God takes sin even as He offers grace through Christ. People are still deserving of those OT sentences, they just don't receive them due to grace.

I'd recommend you read Jonathan Edward's "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". Before you turn your nose up at Edwards, know that he was a major influence in the first Great Awakening which probably had as much to do with our having our freedom as any other event. His ministry contributed directly to the thoughts, philosophies, and actions that allow you to express yourself here 250 years later.

The difference between OT and NT is Christ. He purchased special eternal grace for the redeemed, born again believer. But He also established general grace to mankind that delays God's justice until final judgment. The law is now a schoolmaster rather than an executioner. The OT Israelites consistently proved that man could not be trusted to execute true justice.

As far as "corrupting the Christian faith" goes. Christ cited the OT as did every writer of the NT. None considered the OT passe or without authority. The OT must be treated seriously, respectfully, literally, etc because that's how the Christ and the Apostles treated it. It also must be interpretted by their example.

It is incongruent to say you believe in the Christ of the NT but not the OT. It is not inconsistent however to recognize the justice of the law balanced by the grace of Christ. Paul wrote extensively about the transition from the OT economy to the NT economy. Knowing, understanding, and accepting these things are incumbent for "dedicated Christians".

Classic Christian "fundamental"/orthodox (small "f" and "o") scholarship is FULL of exegesis concerning the things you scoff at going all the way back to the early church fathers. All you have to do is avail yourself to the works of these great divines.

rl- "command"
I don't think you dealt with my comment concerning context.

- Commands to God's people only
- Does not empower Christians to command the unbeliever or unwilling
- Even giving within the church was by the "willing"
- Does not suggest a system that separates charity from the gospel message (gov't can't be involved in that)
- Does not suggest a system that by law cannot give glory/credit to God
- System ultimately makes people more dependent on gov't/man rather than God

sjt18
ok because it is fun exchanging ideas with which you and is why we are both here, although many seem here to vent, i will respond quickly to your last post.

first if we are in fact a Christian nation which conservatives in general always claim, than the 90% of people who claim Christianity should not object to Christian values in government.

so we could let those who chose to "opt out" of any programs they disagreed with or were unwilling to contribute too.

separating charity from the gospel message. feed them first, invite them to stay to listen, as long as it is not a requirment.
we do this at my church all the time and some stay some don't.

God does not need credit, he knows.

finally, as far as dependence, i have never bought the conservative argument that helping those "legitimately" in need makes them dependent.
it is a nice talking point and has some intuitive logic to it but the studies don't bear it out.
by that i mean, most people are not happy being dependent on anything or anyone.
in a country of 300 million you will find a percentage who want to be dependent but my experience has been opposite of that.
given the opportunity most americans opt for independence.

here is a good example of what i am talking about.

in my community we have a 'meals on wheels' which services elderly and home bound.
the funds come from the city social services but the volunteers come from local churches.

Glad you're still checking
I've enjoyed it too.

"first if we are in fact a Christian nation which conservatives in general always claim, than the 90% of people who claim Christianity should not object to Christian values in government."

Au contrare. Specifically because of my religious beliefs as a Baptist I object to gov't making religious evaluations or adopting religious values... even my own.

Have you had the time to read the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom?

What you propose is truly an act of gov't choosing one religion or religious view over another... specifically yours over mine since I don't believe that charity should ever be presented materially absent the spiritual. Offering someone bread to save their body without offering them Christ isn't "Christian".

"so we could let those who chose to "opt out" of any programs they disagreed with or were unwilling to contribute too."

Opt out is a fair way but impractical. The agency wouldn't be able to budget and would have to ration benefits.

"separating charity from the gospel message. feed them first, invite them to stay to listen, as long as it is not a requirment.
we do this at my church all the time and some stay some don't."

I don't necessarily disagree with that approach. But remember that Christ rebuked and refused to perform another feeding miracle the day after feeding the 5000 (John 6). Instead, He preached a hard gospel message after whiche "many of His disciples" followed Him no more.

Jesus refused to feed the hungry apart from the gospel.

"God does not need credit, he knows."

He does but men don't. The Bible consistently proclaims that we should give honor and glory to God. If we let people believe it is just "human goodness" that relieves their need, that's the exact opposite of what scripture requires of you and me as Christians.

"finally, as far as dependence, i have never bought the conservative argument that helping those "legitimately" in need makes them dependent."

I don't have to be sold. I grew up in the southern Appalachians and saw it first hand... alot. I saw people who were plainly just too lazy to work scam the system. I saw a family that probably made as much as we did in cash pulp wood on food stamps and housing assistance.

I saw kids from families better off than mine on the free and reduced lunch/breakfast program. I knew people who used food stamps to buy fresh meat to feed to their dogs because they couldn't use them for dog food. I know of people who traded food stamps for beer and cigarettes.

Bottom line- I've seen what I condemn. I don't condemn the people but I do condemn the situation/actions.

"it is a nice talking point and has some intuitive logic to it but the studies don't bear it out."

Depends on the study and the conditions set for the study.

"by that i mean, most people are not happy being dependent on anything or anyone."

Social Security actually proves that people can rationalize that they aren't dependent when they are if you don't call it dependency... one thing you can call it without forcing people to deal with it is "entitlement"... IOW's, "society owes me this."

"in a country of 300 million you will find a percentage who want to be dependent but my experience has been opposite of that."

For that I'm glad. Mine hasn't. I've lived in NC, SC, GA, MO, Seattle, and Chicago... and have seen it everywhere.

"given the opportunity most americans opt for independence."

Nope. Roughly 40%-50% believe they are entitled to benefits out of someone else's treasury... take universal health care for instance.

"here is a good example of what i am talking about.

in my community we have a 'meals on wheels' which services elderly and home bound.
the funds come from the city social services but the volunteers come from local churches."

Which funds? What source?

If the funds are federal especially, I have a problem with funding the program if the recipients know it is another religion delivering to them... and I have a problem if gov't restricts religions from sharing their message when doing charity.

The only solution is no gov't involvement.

I am specifically talking about the Federal. I think it was a mistake to broadly apply much of the USC to states and localities. Self-governance might mean that my county chooses to cooperate with Catholics but not with Baptists or it might determine to be non-sectarian. Some of the early states tried official religions. The founders did not believe the US Gov't could deny the people of those states that right of self-governance/determination.
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