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Friday, March 02, 2007
Janice Shaw Crouse :: Townhall.com Columnist
The United Nations abortion dilemma
by Janice Shaw Crouse
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Let’s briefly review two contradictory United Nations (U.N.) talking points. (1) Abortion is a matter of “women’s rights;” (2) Killing a “girl child” in the womb is “the most extreme form of violence against women.” To hold both of these beliefs at the same time means to live with constant cognitive dissonance.

It doesn’t take a genius to realize that the U.N. is on the horns of a dilemma; that is, the two alternatives are mutually exclusive. Holding one point of view means that you cannot believe the other proposition. How can the U.N. embrace the position that abortion is morally unobjectionable while condemning abortion for sex selection? Having the abortion option, they claim, is regrettable, but necessary. Sex selection abortion, however, is a morally reprehensible crime against the “girl child.” Only in the U.N. universe would people think that this makes sense.

In spite of the logical inconsistency, the U.N. condemns “pre-natal sex selection;” branding it as a violation of human rights. UNIFEM (United Nations Development Fund for Women) supports a resolution banning sex selection abortions. One of UNIFEM’s publications on eliminating violence against women begins with an acknowledgment that the abortion of females is violence against women and girls. “The range of violence against women and girls is devastating, occurring quite literally from womb to tomb. It includes: abortion of female babies . . .” In another U.N. document, the abortion of girls is identified as “violence.” “Some females,” it states, “fall prey to violence before they are born.”

Amazingly, the U.N. admits the humanity of unborn girls: “At least 60 million girls who would otherwise be expected to be alive are ‘missing’ from various populations as a result of sex-selective abortions or neglect.” The concept of “missing” girls is prevalent throughout the U.N. headquarters on posters and in brochures and books rightly lamenting the girls who have been aborted.

India tops the list for sex-selection abortions (called feticides) and female infanticide. Experts claim that the number of feticides in India is growing. Indira Patel, a global expert on harmful cultural, traditional and religious practices, in a presentation this week at the Commission on the Status of Women, said that 96 percent of aborted fetuses in India are female. Some experts claim that there are nearly 2 boys born for every girl since 20 million female fetuses have been aborted over the last 10 years. Patel quotes families who justify their decision by saying, "Better to pay $38 for an abortion now than $3800 for a dowry later on.” A Delhi-based non-governmental organization (NGO) reported, “Thousands of female infants are murdered in their mother’s wombs or are born to die; the justification is that a girl child is better dead than alive in a society which views her as a financial burden.”

Julia Motoc, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Human Rights, pointed out in a session at the U.N. this week that most countries have laws prohibiting sex selection abortions, but that when the culture allows for it, the laws are not enforced.

A major reason for sex-selection abortion (called “gendercide” in some circles) is the common preference for having a son rather than a daughter. Even when a daughter is not aborted, she is often neglected and denied basic needs such as nutrition, health care and education in preference to her brothers. According to reports from India, genetic testing for sex selection has become a booming business, especially in the northern regions of the country. Women’s groups have protested the gender-detection clinics that advertise terminating a female fetus.

India is not alone in its preference for the male child. Muhammad Ali, former boxing champion in the United States was once asked by a reporter how many children he had. He replied, “One boy and seven mistakes.” China has announced that it will criminalize sex-selection abortions. Given the looming shortage of females, Chinese researchers have predicted that there will be 40 million unmarried men in mainland China by the year 2020. Experts report that such a surplus of unmarried men will, inevitably, mean more violence, including war, kidnapping and rape. Indeed, China has seen a sharp rise in violent crime over the past decade.

Other crimes also accompany shortages of women in nation states. China is a major destination country for sex trafficking in part because of the shortage of marriageable women there. Pakistan and Afghanistan have significant numbers of sex-selection abortions, but the problem is not yet having the impact that it is having in China and India. In addition to sex trafficking, there is a rise in bride trafficking –– Korean men, for instance, are finding brides in Vietnam.

The United Kingdom (U.K.), too, has outlawed “sex selection for social reasons.” The U.K. based bioethics group, Human Genetics Alert, argues, “If we allow sex selection it will be impossible to oppose ‘choice’ of any other characteristics, such as appearance, height, intelligence, etc. The door to ‘designer babies’ will not have been opened a crack –– it will have been thrown wide open.”

These facts led Bill Saunders, Human Rights Counsel, Senior Fellow and Director, Center for Human Life and Bioethics at the Family Research Council, to say, “The true ‘plight of the girl child’ is that she is being aborted out of existence. Recent demographic studies show a growing dearth of female births around the world. This trend is increasing, as couples (and governments) try to ‘engineer families.’”

The abortion dilemma of the radical feminists and other leftists at the United Nations won’t be resolved anytime soon and the ramifications continue to worsen. The bodies of the aborted babies are out of sight but the staggering long-term consequences of the “missing” lives continue to dramatically cumulate.

Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. The lie that produced the illogical abortion dilemma is the same lie that is snuffing out thousands of lives and wreaking havoc on human dignity. In due time, the bitter fruit of “choice” will be recorded in the pages of history . . . after the plagues that struck Egypt, after the World Wars of the 20th century.

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About The Author
Janice Shaw Crouse is a former speechwriter for George H. W. Bush and now political commentator for the Concerned Women for America Legislative Action Committee.
 
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Supply and Demand
I have been expecting that at some time in the future those that aborted their girls to avoid paying a dowry will watch the parents of other girls being paid a dowry for a boy to marry her. That should cause pain and shame to many of those parents as they reflect on what they gave up.

reader
You may well be right on that point. A huge disparity between men and women will certainly change the supply and demand formulation.

Perhaps wrong, but not inconsistent
While I understand why opponents of abortion would see the UN position as inconsistent because they naturally see the abortion itself as the act of violence, inconsistency is not really the problem with the argument. As the article above makes clear, the devaluing of women that leads to the demand for sex selection itself does violence to society in general, and to women in particular.

A question
For the record, I am against abortion as birth control. BUT if the UN is going to say that abortion is a woman's right, isn't it also a woman's right to have the sex of the child she wants?

Abortion as moral
Leftist support of abortion is not well known for its logical consistency (Shameless plug: see my blog post under "its not about when life begins...") But what scares me more is that while this logical inconsistency seems to make perfect sense to liberals, they don't see it as untenable.

What's worse? Being inconsistent or not admitting it?

Where is the feminist outcry?
Where is NOW? NARAL? Shouldn't they be appalled that unborn women are being aborted daily?

Abortion is always abominable, but it is exceptionally horrid when it is done for sex selection.

There is no excuse for this.

Kath
You know they only speak up when it serves their purpose. Its evil and its foul. America aborts baby's simply because they think they are not ready for a kid/don't want a child/don't want to ruin their body/afraid the dad wont stay/afraid their fun will end/ insert any other lame excuse for murder here. Planned Parent hood and the rest of the executioners are fattening their pockets with the blood of unborn children.

Connect the dots
I urge everyone to reread this article, open your minds and lay it over Islam oil and Mexican migration. I am not that smart but I get it. "Big picture" people. S

Let's see now...
...In America,the prevailing wisdom,given to us by our High Priests,say that a woman has the right to an abortion and that it is a private matter of no concern to others,including government.They also say,or legally imply,that the "fetus" is just a clump of cells,not a baby.

Science, on the other hand, tells us life begins at conception.Our High Priests refuse to tell us when life begins because their ruling on abortion could not stand,logically.

So now we have a bunch of abortionists at the UN telling us that that all women have a "right to choose" but only if they choose the way the abortionists want them to.

Do I have this correct?

Details
I still think most of us are bogged down by the details. Killing babies is killing babies, you are either OK with that or not. As long as we keep arguing about that we miss the bottom line. 1. Muslim men expect no less than and will die to preserve their total control of their women and they have determined that we threaten that. 2. Mexican women make lots of babies (whereas American women do not) and they need to be with their men who are here. 3. A whole bunch more Mexicans in Mexico will not improve the overall condition of this "One World" whereas a whole bunch more "American" babies, of both sexes, will increase our security and maybe benefit the whole World.
It is in the numbers like it or not and when it comes to us or them I hope there is more of us. S

60s thinking
This kind of thinking is straight from the 1960s and consists in wanting certain things and then inventing principles to justify their getting them. That there are contradictions won't matter to the true believers. Another example is, as I've implied here in the last few weeks, wanting to say that global warming is a scientific fact at the same time that they want humanities professors to be able to say that there are no facts.

The best defense I can muster for the abortion contradiction is as follows: every time rights are expanded, eventually it is realized that some restrictions need to be put in place. Our society demanded freedom of speech, but later on decided that one shouldn't be allowed to shout "fire" in a crowded theater. Therefore, it's reasonable to say that abortion is a right, but that it shouldn't be done in all circumstances.

Maybe the pro-choice crowd will find this convincing, but I'm sure most people won't. Admitting that abortion used for sex selection is violence against women leads fairly quickly to saying that abortion in general is violence against children, which should be outlawed.

But then feminists lately have been doing a lot of irrational things, like sticking up for Muslims who are likely (if they get power) to oppress them much worse than Western society has.

UN contraction of "choice"
What most in America fail to realize is that our freedoms exist as long as they don't infringe on the freedoms of others.

UN IS CONTRADICTION
The UN is a contradiction period. When I talk to a pro abortion individual they seem to make the argument that the thing inside the pregnant woman is not a human being or words to that effect. My retort is along the lines that, "What is it a puppy?" Pregnant mothers do not say the fetus is doing well today. They say the baby is doing well today. Another argument they have is that no culture considers "it" a child until is born. That his wrong. My wife comes from a country wherein the child's first birthday is celebrated when the child is 3 months old. They call it the 90 day birthday. If you do the math this is a celebration 9 months after conception.

National Abortion Day in America

....Janice ...

.....I would like to remind all TH posters that Bill Clinton signed an executive order making March 10th "National Day of Appreciation of Abortion Providers" ...

.....Planned Parenthood released the following statement to mark the occasion ...

.....ON THIS DAY (EVERY YEAR): Stand up with your abortion services providers and say: Thank you for your heroism, perseverance, courage, and commitment to women.

* Step to the frontlines and be a volunteer escort ...
* Ask your local provider how you can help ...
* Praise clinic staff and doctors with postcards of appreciation ...
* Write your local newspaper and call talk shows to express support ...
* Take out ads in your newsletters and local newspapers ...
* Organize local appreciation events ...

....."We must change the climate from one where abortion providers are villified and attacked to one where they are honored and upheld as the heroes they are."

.....it is hard to imagine that some in our society consider butchers who kill babies in the womb as heroes but there it is ...this stuff is too weird to make up .....COLOSSUS

cognitive dissonance
To embrace liberalism is to live with constant cognitive dissonance. As an earlier poster pointed out, feminists are currently so furious at Bush they hope for his humiliation at the hands of men who would stone them to death the minute they had the power to do so. There is no coherent liberal stance that I can see. It's a handbasket of collective grievances that go together about as well as tuna and chocolate.

4,000/day versus 800/YEAR

This war is so terrible, we've lost 3,200 soldiers since the Iraq war has been raging, and some 45,000 "clumps of tissue". Some how I'm confused about why the trouble making decisions about killing "just" girls is so bad. As a guy I should think that that deprives me of my "right" to have a mate. Of course there are always other guys I guess.

How in the hell sick is this, in our country and others that are of this mind?

And for the bigger picture....

Mark Steyn's book "Its the Demographics Stupid" describes how our steady or declining population will be our fall. It isn't hard to figure out.

As the muslim countries put their "baby factories" to good use we stifle ours and when "they" become the majority guess who will win the elections, install their judges (read mullhs's or clerics) in this country. After that "they" will simply impose sharia law and the game is over especially if we have been stripped of all our guns in the meantime. Scary thoughts to me.

Ed

abortion
-"baby factories"-

That is exactly what women are to muslims. They have no rights (in saudi arabia women cannot even leave the house without a male escort). Abortion in the US has come about because women have taken control of themselves and their bodies. They are, often, tired of being subservient to men (which is why the marriage rate becoming lower in the US). Is aborting a baby strictly because you want a certain sex child a good idea? Of course not, look at all of the trouble it has caused in China. Should we make all abortion in the US illegal. No, it takes away a women's right to choose. Should there be restricitions on abortion? I think so. I think that abortion should be limited to the first trimester, except under limited conditions, such as the mother's health. Then abortion should be allowed during the later trimesters.

Pregnacy is not a benign event. In the US, about 17 in 100,000 women will die during pregnancy. In Trinidad, it is 160:100,000.(Unicef) This is strictly mortality and does not include morbidity (stroke, heart attack). Forty-three percent of women will experience some sort of complication, in the US during pregnancy (Am J Public Health 93(4):631-634).

the point
it is not that the un does not like abortions it is they dont like the choice of boys over girls.

Oh and DA that study that says more women in us are not marrige also includes 16 year olds as well as older women whose husbands have died it is just some misleading study for some purpose or other.

The Truth Within
I have suspected for a long time that "discussion" with the extremes on both sides is an excercise in frustration.

They KNOW why after 9/11 we had to go to war.

They KNOW that kicking out 10% of America's work force is not economically feasible.

They KNOW that Reagan didn't accomplish any more than Bush has.

They KNOW that Clinton and Carter is an embarrassment on the international scene.

And yes, they even KNOW that unborn babies are just as human as babies who are "wanted".

But somebody hands them a clever line that ignites their passions and they jump on it like a born again Christian at a Revival meeting.

Even after they've come back to reality and the hype has worn off; they cling to their cause because it made them feel good.

In the case of abortion, the promise behind the hype wasn't made to women...it was made to men. Abortion was the magic ticket to having sex without consequences. It began with removing the stigma of unwed pregnancies...and then they did away with the pregnancy period.

In both cases, it is the woman who pays. The former: the man shares that consequences in parents who demand that he does the "right thing" and 18 years of child support. In the latter...a one time payment for the abortion (maybe) and a trip to the clinic (again maybe) and that's it...

Thus when someone came up with the clever and catchy line "It's a woman's CHOICE" or the really constitutionally cool idea of it being a "woman's right"...supportive men lined up to fight for a "woman's choice and right" to let them off the hook.

But truth is a funny thing...unlike honesty which can meason a person's morals or logic which is an indication of intelligence...truth is that one concept that won't really go away. It keeps knocking on your shoulder, tapping on your head, and occasionally making your stomach hurt.

Sometimes it keeps you from sleeping or bothers you in the wee hours of the morning. And once in a while, truth will take away pleasure in a moment of joy.

Perhaps it is because truth is the most tangible part humans possess from their maker...

I don't think we have to wait for history put the abortion saga into the other catagories of humanity's atrocities.

Everytime a baby beats the odds...everytime Science reveals more of God's secrets...everytime a child laughs...truth crosses another "t" and dots another "i"...and someone stops to read the fine print.

Abortion
The killing of born or unborn babies through any means, including partial-birth abortion, is murder, period. The shedding of innocent blood. There is no easy forgiveness for this according to the Bible. And, God's laws are in full operation 24/7 whether men and women like it or not, period! The consequences cannot be stopped anymore than mankind can control the law of gravity. The law of sowing and reaping is in full operation at all times.

To Liberty Bob & None

LibertyBob, I believe that it IS ALL about when life begins, and that is why I don't see myself as a murderer, None.

I'm thoroughly pro-choice, and I don't consider myself a murderer of unborn babies or unborn human beings. Murder is the willful and unjustified killing of a human being. While it's not in the Bible (I think), the ancient tradition of God's chosen people was that a baby was fully realized as a human being when it's head and shoulders emerged from the womb. That seems a little harsh to me, I believe that a baby is just as human the day before it's born.

Every "Pro-Lifer" I ask (and I've even asked Rick Santorum) was told me that "life begins at conception", and then proceeded to act as though the just-fertilized embryo was indeed as fully realized a human being as anyone reading this column.

I find this position as problematic as the ancient Hebrew one, because about half of these embryos do not implant in the uterine wall and are disposed in the trash or the sewage system. And not even the most ardent pro-lifer is even thinking about trying to same them all. Even when a woman suffers a miscarriage after several months of pregnancy, we are more-or-less sad but we don't behave as if a fully realized human life had begun, flourished for a time, and then was tragically cut short like we do when a baby or a toddler dies. In virtually all cases there is no funeral, no burial.

Some people have told me that these events are natural and are God's will. When I respond that Hurricane Katrina and the Indonesian Tsunami were also natural events, yet we didn't even think of standing by and letting THOSE fully realized human beings die, I never get any answers.

It's obvious that virtually all of us live our lives and choose our behaviors in the knowledge that a newly-fertilized embryo is obviously NOT a human being, and it becomes a human being at some point in time before the end of the pregnancy. I believe that pretty much the only time even pro-life people behave as if they believed anything different is when they're arguing against Abortion or condemning some unfortunate woman for having one.

It's also clear (to me anyway) that if the pregnancy has gone along for a long enough time, it really WOULD be murder to end it.

In light of the above two conclusions, and if it's true that Roe v. Wade applies only to the 1st trimester, then I think they probably got things just about correct. Our policies should promote the morning-after pill and other means of ending pregnancy early, and without waiting periods, so that we are confident that no murder is being committed. And we should then face the difficult task of deciding when it really would be murder to terminate a pregnancy.

Flaming Liberal
I'm just curious...exactly what scientific, medical FACT do you base your belief that the unborn isn't a human being?

Flaming liberal
So, if it's not murder before a certain point, because it's not a human being, then you would disagree with the claim that girl fetuses that are aborted suffer from violence.

U N logic
The UN positions seem perfectly logical-support a woman's right to abortion as her "free and unfettered choice" just so long as the reason she chooses it is not for sex selection.

Wrong conclusions

Flaming multicultural,
You seem to hit some important points, but you don't draw logical conclusions from them. I'd like to respond, but first I want to make sure I understand.

"Some people have told me that these events are natural and are God's will. When I respond that Hurricane Katrina and the Indonesian Tsunami were also natural events, yet we didn't even think of standing by and letting THOSE fully realized human beings die, I never get any answers"
-- What is the question here? Its hard to give answers without a question. Are you wondering why we mourn natural disasters and not aborted babies?

"And not even the most ardent pro-lifer is even thinking about trying to [save] them all. Even when a woman suffers a miscarriage after several months of pregnancy, we are more-or-less sad but we don't behave as if a fully realized human life had begun, flourished for a time, and then was tragically cut short like we do when a baby or a toddler dies. In virtually all cases there is no funeral, no burial."
-- Have you ever lost a baby? I know women who mourn just as fervently, and even do have funerals. Sometimes, as in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, there simply is not enough tissue grown yet to have a funeral, which some women consider to be even more difficult since there is no closure. I don't mean to demean your points, but just because we mourn at tragic deaths doesn't mean we shouldn't mourn preventable tragedies, either...

"It's obvious that virtually all of us live our lives and choose our behaviors in the knowledge that a newly-fertilized embryo is obviously NOT a human being, and it becomes a human being at some point in time before the end of the pregnancy. I believe that pretty much the only time even pro-life people behave as if they believed anything different is when they're arguing against Abortion or condemning some unfortunate woman for having one.
It's also clear (to me anyway) that if the pregnancy has gone along for a long enough time, it really WOULD be murder to end it."

--This is the argument of defining when life begins, which is what this post was about. A theoretical question: if science advances to the point where a fertilized egg could be maintained and viable, and then grown for a full pregnancy in a synthetic uterus, would abortion be wrong then because we could save EVERY child? If so, how is that any different than a woman (the 'perfect' uterus, ie: if not aborted, it would grow into a child?)

To say that the fetus is not human but then later becomes so is not very convincing to me. First of all, the point at which it happens is never defined, and even the first trimester deadline is arbitrary. It is not based on viability, or even what we most narrowly define as "life". Also, there isn't a magic day where the fetus is viable. Different age preemies will survive based on their weight more than their age, and even that is variable. Many survive when others that had "better chances" didn't. Many survive with birth defects or developmental problems. So at what point does it become justifiable to abort? But lastly, if the fetus is not aborted, it would become viable at one point. It is the choice of the mother that causes the consequence. Nothing else. To deny such is to deny reality.

Multiculturalist, I don't see how what you have proposed is based on any logical consistency. What say you about that post by Janice Crouse? Is it inconsistent to say that aborting female embryos is a travesty against women, and yet hold abortion as justifiable at the same time? Or is it ok to selectively abort fetuses on parent preference?

Replying to Sanity102 & JFP

Sanity102 Writes:
"I'm just curious...exactly what scientific, medical FACT do you base your belief that the unborn isn't a human being?"

You mis-state my position, so I'll just discuss zygotes, or newly-fertilized embyro's.

That is more than a scientific question, science only takes me partway to an answer. LibertyBob tells me that 30%-50% of all fertilized embryo's do not implant in the uterine wall. Other sources say at least 50%. That's as far as science takes me. I do not believe that God would design us that way and also make us human beings at the instant of conception.

JFP Writes:
"So, .... you would disagree with the claim that girl fetuses that are aborted suffer from violence."

I believe that a fetus becomes human at some point in it's development. Fetuses (actually 'fetii', I guess) of either gender aborted after that time would then be murdered (which is what I take you to mean by "suffer violence").

Reply To LibertyBob
LibertyBob Quoting Me:
"Some people have told me that these events are natural and are God's will. When I respond that Hurricane Katrina and the Indonesian Tsunami were also natural events, yet we didn't even think of standing by and letting THOSE fully realized human beings die, I never get any answers"

LibertyBob:
-- What is the question here? Its hard to give answers without a question."

My argument might make more sense if you did not randomize the order of it's statements.

I find it inconsistent to (1) maintain that human life, humanity, begins at the instant of conception and (2) to be unconcerned with all of the human beings who fail to implant in the uterine wall. I think that any person who believes (1) should also be striving to save all the people dying via (2).

Some people have responded to me with what you quote above from my previous post. Does that make more sense? Perhaps instead of 'answer', the last word of mine that you quoted should have been 'counter-argument'.

LibertyBob Quoting Me:
"when a woman suffers a miscarriage after several months of pregnancy, we... don't behave...like we do when a baby or a toddler dies. In virtually all cases there is no funeral, no burial."

LibertyBoB:
"-- Have you ever lost a baby? I know women who mourn just as fervently, and even do have funerals "

I don't doubt that this happens, and I do not belittle the people who react this way to a miscarriage. Yet I know that this is the exception rather than the rule. Almost all headstones in any cemetery have positive lifespans engraved upon them.

LibertyBob:
"....I don't mean to demean your points, but just because we mourn at tragic deaths doesn't mean we shouldn't mourn preventable tragedies, either."

I don't think you grasp my point. We should mourn tragedies like the death on small children.
The fact that we don't mourn miscarriages that way (with rare exceptions as noted above) shows that we as a society overwhelmingly don't think of the miscarried fetus as a child. We are thus hypocrites when we hold a woman seeking an abortion to a different standard.

LibertyBob:
"A theoretical question: if science advances to the point where a fertilized egg could be maintained and viable, and then grown for a full pregnancy in a synthetic uterus, would abortion be wrong then because we could save EVERY child?"

I dunno, maybe. But you'd have forfeited your right to say so even more completely than under the present circumstances. If you TRULY BELIEVE that a just-fertilized egg is a human being just like you and I having this argument are human beings (assuming we're not really good AI programs (I flatter us)), and you have the technology to save the half of them whose destiny otherwise is the trash can or the sewage system and you still don't do what needs to be done to save them, then you ahve even less of a right to tell a woman she can't take the morning-after pill.

LibertyBob:
"To say that the fetus is not human but then later becomes so is not very convincing to me."

It's not a nice, simple, neat answer like the Pro-Life activist's answer (conception) or the ancient Hebrew answer (Head & Shoulders at Birth) but it fits the facts and it reflects the way almost all of us live our lives (when we are not (some of us) protesting abortion).

LibertyBob:
"there isn't a magic day where the fetus is viable. Different age preemies will survive based on their weight more than their age, and even that is variable. Many survive when others that had "better chances" didn't. Many survive with birth defects or developmental problems. So at what point does it become justifiable to abort?"

I think you really mean to ask at what point it becomes murder to abort. As I posted above, it's a difficult question, but it is also one that we have to try and answer in our laws and policies. For the reasons I've given, I find the Pro-Life position on what those laws should be to be hypocritical.

LibertyBob:
"But lastly, if the fetus is not aborted, it would become viable at one point. It is the choice of the mother that causes the consequence. Nothing else. To deny such is to deny reality."

This is true. I aslo believe that there is much more reality that should be considered and not ignored or denied, including the way that we as a people react to every other way that a pregnancy ends, besides abortion.

To LibertyBob

I feel silly cutting and pasting this same response into your blog. I'll leave that up to you.

Flaming Liberal,
Let me repeat the question, on what scientific/medical fact do you base your statement that the baby (use whatever term you desire) is not a human being?

I am not talking about some doctor's "opinion", I am asking about a scientific/medical FACT, one that a doctor would bet his licease on.

You see I too have talked with many in the medical field and not even the most ardent pro-abortionist will put their medical degree on the line in claiming that the preborn is not a human being. They will use words like "I believe", "I think", "In my opinion", but they will not quote any scientific/medical FACT to back up their assertion.

Now if you have any, I'd like to hear it.





Flaming Liberal
To rephrase my question: For abortions done before the moment when it becomes murder, is it all right to do them for any reason? The whole point of this article was to point out a contradiction in UN policy on abortion, that it's both a woman's right to do it, BUT that using abortion to ensure that one didn't get a girl was an extreme form of violence against women. So what's your response here?

Contradictory abortion lovers
This article is spot on. Another article on the same theme is "Abortion: an indispensable right or violence against women?" (http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4851/) by Lita Cosner

Sex selection
While I am pro-choice and proud of it, I think sex selection is a really bad reason to have an abortion. But I don't know how to prohibit that without invading people's privacy, and they could just claim another reason anyway. The way to stop abortion of female fetuses, simply because they are female, is to raise the status of women. I think the only solution that will make both sides of the abortion debate happy--and will be best for everyone--is to reduce the need for abortion for any reason: reduce poverty, reduce birth-control failure, etc.

To sanity102 Again
Sanity102:
"Let me repeat the question, on what scientific/medical fact do you base your statement that the baby (use whatever term you desire) is not a human being?"

I DO NOT SAY THAT! Like I told you last time, you mis-state my position. From my original post:
"It's also clear (to me anyway) that if the pregnancy has gone along for a long enough time, it really WOULD be murder to end it."

I believe that at some point during the course of pregnancy the fetus achieves personhood / is imbued with an immortal soul / becomes a human being, and I think that happens well before birth. I also don't think that it happens at the moment of conception, for the reasons that I stated pretty plainly above.

Sanity102:
"I am not talking about some doctor's "opinion", I am asking about a scientific/medical FACT, one that a doctor would bet his licease on.
You see I too have talked with many in the medical field and not even the most ardent pro-abortionist will put their medical degree on the line in claiming that the preborn is not a human being."

I don't know how else to say this to you so it'll sink in! You ask me and your medical professionals for a scientific answer to a question that goes far beyond the realm of science. What can science say about the soul?? As I said to you in my previous post, I start with the scientific observation (and this is not by any means cutting edge, this is freshman Biology) that about half of the fertilized embryo's do not implant in the uterine wall. That is the only science I have for you, the fact in that previous sentence to this sentence, OK? That was the scientific fact that you keep asking me again for right after I tell it to you. I hope you don't ask me for it again.

But (as I said before and I don't know how else to say it to you) this scientific fact is only a starting point for me. I do not believe that God would make us this way, so that half of us just die while we're still small bundles of cells. And when I see the hypocrisy of most people who say that life begins at conception, I have little respect for that position. They (including you I suppose) claim that life begins at the instant of conception, but very, every few of you (if any) are painstakingly parsing the menstrual flow of every sexually active woman in search of deceased human beings to give a proper burial to, or perhaps even living ones who could be saved, or cryogenicly frozen, or something. As I told LibertyBob above, with almost no exceptions you don't even offer decent last rites to miscarried fetuses, who by your reckoning are human beings who've lived for several months.

I have no medical degree to put on the line, but I do have an immortal soul. I'm Catholic, my position is quite at odds with that of my church, so I guess it's my soul I'm putting on the line.


Reply to JFP
"Flaming Liberal
To rephrase my question: For abortions done before the moment when it becomes murder, is it all right to do them for any reason? The whole point of this article was to point out a contradiction in UN policy on abortion"

JFP, does the UN explicitly endorse sex-selected abortion? The UN supports many freedoms and basic human rights that can be done to extreme, mis-applied, and/or abused. I don't see this as a contradiction in policy.

If people determine the sex of their fetus and choose to abort female ones, and do so early in the pregnancy, them while I don't think it's murder i do think it's a bad, foolish, short-sighted idea. And I truly doubt that, in the overwhelming majority of cases, this is the choice of the pregnant mother herself.

FLM
So what you are saying is that you don't know when human life begins.

Ah...don't you think you need to ANSWER that question BEFORE deciding it is ok to destroy it?


Reply to Sanity102
Sanity102 Writes:
"So what you are saying is that you don't know when human life begins. Ah...don't you think you need to ANSWER that question BEFORE deciding it is ok to destroy it?"

In an ideal world that would be the case. In that same ideal world, anti-abortion activists would not be trying to enforce tyranny over every woman's body. But that's not the world we live in, so we're forced to make the best call we can.

How's about walking the walk that you yourself are talking? Until you can MEDICALLY, SCIENTIFICALLY prove that newly-fertilized zygote to be a human being, why don't you shut up and let a woman's choice, and it's consequences, be an issue between her & God?

(If nothing else, this exercise should help you to understand the futility of trying to settle that issue using only science.)


FL
But it's not up to me to prove anything. The burden is on YOU after all, you're the one condemning unborn babies to death.

You kept justifying this death sentence by saying you didn't "believe" the baby was human and you didn't know when human life began.

So my question to you is...do you always make serious decisions based on...incomplete data?

(By the way, it IS a Scientific IMPOSSIBILITY for a woman's "body" to be a different sex, different blood type, and have a different DNA code...so the baby cannot be a part of a woman's body.)


Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist round 3
"I find it inconsistent to (1) maintain that human life, humanity, begins at the instant of conception and (2) to be unconcerned with all of the human beings who fail to implant in the uterine wall. I think that any person who believes (1) should also be striving to save all the people dying via (2).

Some people have responded to me with what you quote above from my previous post. Does that make more sense? Perhaps instead of 'answer', the last word of mine that you quoted should have been 'counter-argument'."

-- Ah. Now I understand what you meant. Furthermore, I may even agree with you about that. I addressed this in my post, which is why the name of it was "it isn't about when life begins." As you said, and as I state there, many pregnancies (over 50%, in fact. See my blog posting...) are never viable for either failure to implant or genetic aberrations that make them incompatible with life. This is why I said in my post that it is mostly a religious stance about whether life begins at conception. To say such, one also must admit that God Himself is responsible for the majority of fetal demise that occurs. Therefore, I fully agree that we should do all in our power to save your group 2), however, I don't feel it is acceptable to terminate an otherwise healthy pregnancy. In that sense, one is changing what otherwise would have happened. And I think that is wrong, whether arguing from an ethical or theological position.

"I don't doubt that this happens, and I do not belittle the people who react this way to a miscarriage. Yet I know that this is the exception rather than the rule. Almost all headstones in any cemetery have positive lifespans engraved upon them."

-- True, but my point was that we don't not grieve for them. Your original post seemed to imply otherwise.

"I don't think you grasp my point. We should mourn tragedies like the death on small children.
The fact that we don't mourn miscarriages that way (with rare exceptions as noted above) shows that we as a society overwhelmingly don't think of the miscarried fetus as a child. We are thus hypocrites when we hold a woman seeking an abortion to a different standard."
-- I disconcur. First of all, "we as a society" spend millions in neonatal intensive care units, striving to help children survive. Doctors and Nurses spend lifetimes for just such a goal, and we have pushed the point of viability back farther and farther. What kind of society does such things and professes to value life, and yet should accept allowing a child who would otherwise be born to be aborted? Thus, we are not hypocrites to hold women seeking abortions to different standards when they seek an abortion. We are trying to prevent the same tragedy of miscarriage. Abortion is worse precisely because it isn't a tragedy that happened, but because someone causes it to happen. It is the same reason why we differentiate between manslaughter and murder in the legal system. In both instances, someone dies. But one is intentionally caused.

"I dunno, maybe. But you'd have forfeited your right to say so even more completely than under the present circumstances. If you TRULY BELIEVE that a just-fertilized egg is a human being just like you and I having this argument are human beings (assuming we're not really good AI programs (I flatter us)), and you have the technology to save the half of them whose destiny otherwise is the trash can or the sewage system and you still don't do what needs to be done to save them, then you have even less of a right to tell a woman she can't take the morning-after pill. It's not a nice, simple, neat answer like the Pro-Life activist's answer (conception) or the ancient Hebrew answer (Head & Shoulders at Birth) but it fits the facts and it reflects the way almost all of us live our lives (when we are not (some of us) protesting abortion)."

--Again, I already addressed that in my posting, as well as my above comment. Tragedy is worse if it is preventable but chosen anyways.

"I think you really mean to ask at what point it becomes murder to abort. As I posted above, it's a difficult question, but it is also one that we have to try and answer in our laws and policies. For the reasons I've given, I find the Pro-Life position on what those laws should be to be hypocritical."

-- I contend that it doesn't matter at what point the fetus becomes living. It doesn't matter that one day it is acceptable, and the next it is murder. Not only is such a line impossible to draw, but it ignores that fact that a potential life would result. This is the contradiction that Crouse asserts puts the UN in a logically untenable position. I also notice you haven't responded to the root issue of her article. Either you have to say they are wrong about selective female abortions being an abomination, or that abortion is acceptable. You can't have both. You say abortion is acceptable. Therefore, you state that to abort a child to select a gender (or any other quality we could determine in utero, come to think of it...) is moral acceptable?
A much more consistent answer is that children should be allowed to have a chance at life. Period.

"I aslo believe that there is much more reality that should be considered and not ignored or denied, including the way that we as a people react to every other way that a pregnancy ends, besides abortion."
-- Again, I addressed this in my post.

Flaming Multiliberal Culturalist, You have failed to address two main points. First, you have ignored the main premise in Crouse's article. I wait your response. Secondly, as I stated as the principal argument in my post, you still justify one tragedy to occur simply because another does. You have ignored the fact that one tragedy is preventable, and done by choice. In fact, you refuse to call it a tragedy at all. I assert that every man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind.

oops
I meant:
Therefore, you state that to abort a child to select a gender (or any other quality we could determine in utero, come to think of it...) is morally acceptable?

Oops again
Sorry. I was so anxious to get a good reply that I made two typos. I sincerely apologize.

"Either you have to say they are right about selective female abortions being an abomination, or that abortion is acceptable. You can't have both."

Easy to lose count of rounds
LB:
"This is why I said in my post that it is mostly a religious stance about whether life begins at conception. To say such, one also must admit that God Himself is responsible for the majority of fetal demise that occurs."

The above is true only if you start with the postulate that life begins at conception. I (and I suspect Mr. Occam) find it far more reasonable to begin with no conclusion, observe the facts, and recognize that they support the idea that the newly-conceived unicellular embryo is not a human being.

LB:
"I don't feel it is acceptable to terminate an otherwise healthy pregnancy. In that sense, one is changing what otherwise would have happened."

Here you are granting yourself the gift of prophecy in order to justify your pre-formed conclusions. Certainly a woman who takes a morning-after pill has roughly an even chance of changing nothing. And a woman who terminates a pregnancy after 2-3 months may be simply avoiding a miscarriage.

LB quoting me:
"The fact that we don't mourn miscarriages that way...shows that we as a society overwhelmingly don't think of the miscarried fetus as a child. We are thus hypocrites when we hold a woman seeking an abortion to a different standard."
LB:
"I disconcur. First of all, "we as a society" spend millions in neonatal intensive care units, striving to help children survive. Doctors and Nurses spend lifetimes for just such a goal, and we have pushed the point of viability back farther and farther."

I find it telling that, in attempting to refute my assessment of how our society regards a miscarried and dead fetus of three, four or six months gestation, you can speak only of how we treat a distinctly different population, namely those babies who have already been born into the world (albeit prematurely) alive. Our efforts to saving living new-borns are at best only peripherally related to our treatment of, and our attitudes towards, deceased, miscarried embryos. We obviously don't consider them to be deceased people, you've done nothing to show otherwise.


LB:
"We are trying to prevent the same tragedy of miscarriage. Abortion is worse precisely because it isn't a tragedy that happened, but because someone causes it to happen."

Yet again, you give lip service to the idea that a miscarriage is the tragic death of a human being, but when it would inconvenience us to actually live our lives in consistency with that view of reality and mourn as we would mourn the death of a young child, and have a funeral, and have a burial, most of us (and I include most adherents to the anti-abortion position) don't. Mostly it's only when condemning a womans choice to terminate her pregnancy that this latter group bestirs themselves. THAT, you regard as a tragedy, because it's easy to do so and requires no effort.

LB:
"I contend that it doesn't matter at what point the fetus becomes living. It doesn't matter that one day it is acceptable, and the next it is murder. Not only is such a line impossible to draw, but it ignores that fact that a potential life would result."

I don't see how you can take this stance, unless you are already convinced that life begins at conception, or the concept of enforcing tyranny over a woman's body has so little meaning to you that you are willing to simply postulate that humanity begins at the instant of conception for neatness' sake. And your final sentence encapsulates the illogic of this position. A 'potential' is a particularly meaningless kind of 'result'.

(Close enough, I guess :) )
LB: \/
"Flaming Multiliberal Culturalist, You have failed to address two main points. First, you have ignored the main premise in Crouse's article. I wait your response."

I'm perfectly free to ignore Ms. Crouse's article if I so choose. I was moved to respond to your comment, not her original article. In any case, see my response to "JFP" above, which does address Ms. Crouse's concerns.

LB:
"Secondly, as I stated as the principal argument in my post, you still justify one tragedy to occur simply because another does. You have ignored the fact that one tragedy is preventable, and done by choice. In fact, you refuse to call it a tragedy at all."

I guess we're just going to go around and around with this. Yes, I do not consider the failure of a zygote to implant to be a tragedy, rather I see the commonplace nature of this occurrence (about half the time) as practically conclusive evidence that the embryo is not yet human. I feel sorrier for the couple who miscarries after several months, and I respect their right to react as they feel they must, but like most people I don't see it as the death of a human.

And once again (as long as we're reiterating main points), the disconnect between the talk and the walk WRTO the pro-life position that humanity begins at conception leaves me with little respect for that position.

You reference the post in your blog, and I'd like to do the same, but I think that TH must run the blogs on a 386 box or something, because they take forever to come up!

More on abortion part 4
Ok. Here we go again.

"The above is true only if you start with the postulate that life begins at conception. I (and I suspect Mr. Occam) find it far more reasonable to begin with no conclusion, observe the facts, and recognize that they support the idea that the newly-conceived unicellular embryo is not a human being."

--To reference Occam's razor is clever, but inaccurate. Again, I assume you never got to my blog posting on this because of the connection speed, but I DON'T DISAGREE WITH YOU on this... well, not entirely. Its not an issue of when life begins precisely because 50% of embryos DON'T implant. You are discussing whether or not the embryo is human or not, I say that that is not the issue. Because if you begin with no conclusion, observe the facts, and recognize that humans result from pregnancy. No other way has been found yet. It doesn't matter whether we "define" a single cell as human or not, because the outcome is either going to be determined by nature, or by the actions of the mother. In almost every case (as I show on my blog) an abortion is done for convenience to the mother.

"Here you are granting yourself the gift of prophecy in order to justify your pre-formed conclusions. Certainly a woman who takes a morning-after pill has roughly an even chance of changing nothing. And a woman who terminates a pregnancy after 2-3 months may be simply avoiding a miscarriage."

-- You are right. An embryo may fail to implant. A fetus may miscarry. MAY. But if the woman chooses the actions of abortion, the outcome is CERTAIN. How is justifying it on possibilities any less than granting yourself the gift of prophecy? That doesn't change the fact that most abortions that are done would have otherwise resulted in a pregnancy. I didn't reference the morning after pill, but keeping the first issue in mind, the principle still applies. Again, simply because some pregnancies end naturally is no reason to cause others to end purposefully. Again, its not about when life begins.

"I find it telling that, in attempting to refute my assessment of how our society regards a miscarried and dead fetus of three, four or six months gestation, you can speak only of how we treat a distinctly different population, namely those babies who have already been born into the world (albeit prematurely) alive. Our efforts to saving living new-borns are at best only peripherally related to our treatment of, and our attitudes towards, deceased, miscarried embryos. We obviously don't consider them to be deceased people, you've done nothing to show otherwise."

-- Hmm. Where to begin with this one? Despite the fact that six month gestated babies can be viable, you say that our efforts at newborns are only distantly related. This is actually at the core of your assertion when you try to define a moment of conversion from not-human to human. We save those preemies that we are able. Simply because we lack the technology to save all of them or earlier fetuses does not mean that we don't consider the earlier ones people or not, it means we lack the technology. This is why I originally asked you if we had technology to allow fetuses to live at any point in the 2nd trimester if abortion would still be acceptable. What about at any point in the first trimester? Again, its not about when life begins, its about our society's reverence on life, and whether or not the child would live if the mother did not make a certain choice.

"Yet again, you give lip service to the idea that a miscarriage is the tragic death of a human being, but when it would inconvenience us to actually live our lives in consistency with that view of reality and mourn as we would mourn the death of a young child, and have a funeral, and have a burial, most of us (and I include most adherents to the anti-abortion position) don't. Mostly it's only when condemning a womans choice to terminate her pregnancy that this latter group bestirs themselves. THAT, you regard as a tragedy, because it's easy to do so and requires no effort."

--What? I really don't get what you were asserting, but here is what my response to what I think you said was. It is morally inconsistent of us to view abortion as a tragedy and not mourn all miscarriages as we would a young child's death. Is that right? I don't see a connection here, because the amount that we mourn is related to our emotional distance of the death. One will mourn their own child's death much more than hearing a story of another child's death in another state, even though that second death may be more "tragic." The level of mourning is not a measurement of the morality of an action. I for one, do consider miscarriage as a tragedy. Am I morally inconsistent?

"I don't see how you can take this stance, unless you are already convinced that life begins at conception, or the concept of enforcing tyranny over a woman's body has so little meaning to you that you are willing to simply postulate that humanity begins at the instant of conception for neatness' sake. And your final sentence encapsulates the illogic of this position. A 'potential' is a particularly meaningless kind of 'result'."
-- This was addressed fully in my blog post, I'm not going to repeat it all here. But I discussed whether or not it is an issue of tyranny over the woman's own body, as well as showing that it isn't about when life begins. A potential is a meaningless kind of result? Lets say you hear of a crime that will be committed. I don't know, say, you are hanging out at the ATM of a bank and you overhear two people planning on running inside and robbing the bank. Should you call the police? Or walk away? Our criminal justice system prosecutes those who walk away as aiders of crime, yet it was only your inaction that let a 'potential' crime happen, since you learned about it before the action occurred. Likewise, barring any actions by pro-'choice' women, millions of babies would be born. Potentials are indeed very meaningful kinds of results, especially when applied to the unborn. Why else do you think it is such an emotional issue?

"I'm perfectly free to ignore Ms. Crouse's article if I so choose. I was moved to respond to your comment, not her original article. In any case, see my response to "JFP" above, which does address Ms. Crouse's concerns."
--Actually, your response to JFP was not a refutation of Crouse's contention. You dance around the issue because addressing the contention she points out would require that you either state abortion is wrong or that sex selective abortion is acceptable. As usual, you ignore the meat of the issue to discuss nuances in how some people will misuse or mis apply certain aspects while ignoring the root principle. "JFP, does the UN explicitly endorse sex-selected abortion? The UN supports many freedoms and basic human rights that can be done to extreme, mis-applied, and/or abused. I don't see this as a contradiction in policy.If people determine the sex of their fetus and choose to abort female ones, and do so early in the pregnancy, them while I don't think it's murder i do think it's a bad, foolish, short-sighted idea. And I truly doubt that, in the overwhelming majority of cases, this is the choice of the pregnant mother herself."
I'll reduce it to a single question for you: If the unborn aren't humans, how can sex selective abortions be "violence against women?"

Indeed, we may go around and around on this one, I doubt I'll change your mind on anything. Such is the nature of the abortion debate. But since nearly every argument you give is based on an assertion about defining an embryo as a human or not, I'll wait to see how you respond to my blog article before posting here further, because that was indeed the whole point of my article. To discuss this point when you haven't read my article is kind of like driving in deep snow. Your tires can spin real fast, but you have no idea if you are getting anywhere...

Belatedly, to Part 4

I agree that your blog would be a better focal point for this discussion, which is drifting further away from Ms. Crouse's article. It also seems that because of the perspective that you have due to your blog posting, you regard as peripheral issues which I consider to be central.

We're finally settling down from the DST craziness at my work, and I've saved your blog article locally. My next post will be there.
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