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Thursday, February 15, 2007
Janice Shaw Crouse :: Townhall.com Columnist
In praise of virginity
by Janice Shaw Crouse
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I’ve written several articles lately approving the new trends toward abstinence that have led to reductions in teen sexual activity, teen births and teen abortions. Expressing these views has brought howls of protest and filled my e-mail box to overflowing with verbal abuse from readers who hold the notion that uninhibited, promiscuous sexual activity is the key to the good life. They are happy to let me know, sometimes in the rudest possible terms, that I am unrealistic, prudish and sexually repressed.

The fact is that despite the wholesale repudiation of traditional Judeo-Christian moral values relating to sex and marriage by a large majority of the elites — as well as many of the general public — there are still some of us who think that chastity is a virtue and that virginity is one of the most priceless gifts a couple can give to each other in consummation of their nuptial vows.

The idea that valuing virginity equates to being sexually repressed is, of course, patent nonsense. One might as well try to make a logical argument that back in the 70s and 80s the avoidance of smoking meant that one was antisocial.

One recent correspondent was incensed when I reported a new study from the American Journal of Preventive Medicine that linked teen sex with depression. This person volunteered that he/she had been intent on getting rid of his/her virginity at the first opportunity. I wanted to ask how it was because magazines periodically run supposedly funny features recounting how various people “lost their virginity.” Inevitably, such features make for sad reading; the writers recount embarrassment, frustration, awkwardness and disgust for themselves and their partner.

Logically, the benefits of going into marriage unencumbered by the emotional fallout and the health consequences that often go with sexual experimentation and promiscuity have not changed. But we know — and have known since the days of the Greek philosopher Aristotle — that persons are persuaded not just by logic (logos) but by emotions as well (pathos). Moreover, the strongest arguments come from persons with credibility and charisma (ethos) who combine the force of logical arguments with emotional appeals.

Those who defend traditional morality today, however, are at a distinct disadvantage in terms of persuading teens who are living in today’s popular culture and not the logical, factually-based side of things. For teens willing to consider the evidence carefully and clearly, it is blindingly obvious that casual sexual experimentation (often fueled by drinking and drugs) is a terribly inferior proposition compared to the fantastic joys of experiencing sexual intimacy as the seal of a marriage commitment to the love of your life. However, this requires long-term thinking. It requires valuing an experience that you can only dimly imagine.

The persuasiveness of logic by itself is often insufficient in the face of the emotional counter forces with which young people have to deal. On the one hand, there is the strong temptation of the excitement associated with sexual experimentation, and on the other is the fear of group ridicule for sexual abstinence.

It would be bad enough if only peer group pressures drove teens in the wrong direction. However, far too many of today’s leaders promote the idea that “sex is no big deal.” These veterans of the sexual revolution of the 1960s, now aging Baby Boomers, have spent a long time telling themselves that their momentary sexual thrills were worth the bad stuff they’ve lived with ever since: the “complications” in their relationships with their spouses and children. The emotional wreckage littering the landscape for the last 30 to 40 years is like the elephant in the corner that everyone pretends not to see. Yet it doesn’t take a psychologist to recognize that avoidance is ineffective in dealing with the relationship messes and destroyed dreams. The trends show that many teenagers are seeing that “elephant” and thus are valuing virginity.

In an earlier era, one counterbalance to the forces pushing for sexual experimentation by teens and young adults was the moral authority of traditional Judeo-Christian teaching regarding the sanctity of sexual activity and the imperative for limiting sexual intercourse to the marriage bed. Sadly, rather than face the ridicule from those in the educated elites, many religious leaders have abandoned the teachings regarding moral purity before marriage and fidelity within marriage.

We must do a better job of instilling in young people a healthy fear — born from an awe of God’s Word as our human instruction book — of violating our God-given human dignity by ignoring the full realities involved in sexual intimacy, by truncating the multi-dimensional nature of sex, by robbing it of its significance and reducing it to merely a means of momentary physical pleasure rather than reserving intercourse to be the fantastic means of bonding a husband and wife into one flesh — making them both rapturous and whole — and providing a secure setting should the miracle of new life bless their union.

When we accept that human dignity is God-given, we have the logically persuasive reason to follow the moral law of the transcendent God, revealed by Him to us in Scripture, as it is the surest — and the only — safe path to happiness.

We also have the emotionally persuasive reason to be afraid of acting in violation of the boundaries laid down by the Creator of the Universe; in His universe we see the laws of cause and effect at work everywhere. Ignorance of, or indifference to, these boundaries brings consequences as surely, if not as swiftly, as jumping out the window of a 50-story building brings destruction. God’s moral laws are built into our humanity and the world we live in.

Best of all, we are made in His image, and when His law is instilled within us, we have the capacity to love.

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About The Author
Janice Shaw Crouse is a former speechwriter for George H. W. Bush and now political commentator for the Concerned Women for America Legislative Action Committee.
 
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Can't wait for the Boomers to die off
We'll be so much better off when the last generation of Baby Boomers finally dies off, and we can begin a proper recovery from their spoiled-brat, do-it-if-it-feels-good, me, me, me! way of looking at the world.

Disclaimer: OK, OK, I concede that not every individual born between 1946 and 1964 behaves this way. But there are enough who do to emboss that philosophy on our society.

Forces of light, forces of dark
It's curious to me that this columnist sees American culture as divided into two distinct groups regarding sexual mores: One is the group who "think that chastity is a virtue and that virginity is one of the most priceless gifts a couple can give to each other in consummation of their nuptial vows" and the other is the group that preaches " the wholesale repudiation of traditional Judeo-Christian moral values relating to sex and marriage". Were it that simple.

I have heard this colmnist on the radio talk about the numbers of students coming to her office with presenting symptoms of depression and they all are having sex. Wouldn't it be more useful, certainly more scholarly, to consider that she is seeing the depressed students because she is a therapist, and the students who are living fulfilled, productive lives, whether or not they are having sex, would have little reason to make an appointment for counseling?

I regret that there are people who have responded to her concerns in rude ways - there seems to be enough muddle here.

Beautifully done, Janice S Crouse
Thank you.

Amen
The idea that seemingly rational adults would actually ADVOCATE for teens to engage in sex before marriage is beyond me. What in the name of God are these people smoking???? Although I don't agree one iota with their "repression" argument (nice try), I think any teen would choose "repression" over the following possible consequences of teen sex:

-STDs, including AIDS
-Broken heart/emotional distress
-Bad reputation
-Pregnancy

Just a thought.

K
Are these people pushing kids toward promiscuity the same ones that want me to donate to AIDS charities?? Hmm.

Therapists, flawed approach
I agree that there's a skew because of people coming to see therapists over depression, but I'd also look at the general rise in depression as a symptom of things that are seriously wrong. It may not all be about sexual promiscuity; in fact, most of it may not. But I think a lot of people have a sense that something's gone wrong. The incessant drum-pounding that the sexual revolution is the greatest advance in the history of mankind and anyone who disagrees with any aspect of it is repressed and probably damaged, I think, strikes a lot of people as more than a little twisted in the face of the fallout.

I think linking it too closely to a particular religious system is probably a mistake, especially as most religions have historically had some rules about chastity, at least for girls. It also means dealing with two trendy belief systems (promiscuity and nihilism) instead of just one, and makes it much more difficult to convince people. Working with the common sense angle is likely to make more headway on the problem.

Put it off
Delayed gratification is something the current generation of grabbybabies has not clue one about. Everything with them is kicking, screaming, flailing their arms and demanding that everything they want be handed over NOW. "Whadda we want?" "[Your Demand Here]!" "Wendawewannit?" "NOWWWWWWWWW!"

If you can teach your child to put off eating a lollipop until after he's had his dinner, you've really accomplished something with Generation Whine. Now you want to teach them to put off sex? Good luck with that.

Of course I agree that there are boatloads of experiences that ought to be put off until one is sufficiently mature to understand the situation and the likely consequences. I also hold to this spreading out of experiences over a lifetime as an antidote to terminal ennui at age 20.

I love this
I love columns like this, because all the grumpy old men come out to the comment board to harumph about "kids these days." News flash, Grampa: It's possible to have a fulfilling, happy, disease-free life AND have sex before marriage. Plenty of people do it, just as they always have.

Yeah, yeah, I'm getting off your lawn, calm down.

Teenagers should not have sex
Concord,

Think, my friend. "People" having sex are not the same as "teenagers" having sex, although both should abstain before marriage. Teenagers who do not have jobs (or work at a pizza place) and live with Mom and Dad SHOULD NOT BE HAVING SEX. They are not emotionally prepared for the physical and mental consequences that could result, including pregnancy. Why should we encourage teenagers to put themselves in a position where something bad COULD happen? Why not just steer them away from sex altogether???

Sex
Additionally, anybody who decides to have sex freely just because "lots of people are doing it, and they're OK," is the most ridiculous piece of non-logic I've ever heard. It's possible they haven't paid the piper yet in terms of contracting AIDS or suffering emotional issues. It's like saying, "Lots of people speed through red lights and don't cause an accident." Why take the chance????

Practical virginity

When I was in college, I remember my roommate coming back from a vacation and commenting that her high-school best friend had become sexually involved with her current boyfriend and said that she found that there was no going back; she found herself unable to refuse him. That made me realize that I had more freedom because I said "no" than the girls that said "yes." I decided that any reason that I was not married to someone was sufficient reason not to have sex with them. After I was married, I really appreciated not having awkward memories to pop up when I didn't want them.
Hey, it worked for me.

JayJay and Miss_W
JayJay - What isn't simple? There are 2 schools of thought (concerning sex before/outside of marriage)-chastity is best or sexual activity is best. You can't have it both ways.

Miss_W - linking sexual purity to Judeo-Christian values is correct. What other religious philosophy recommends sexual purity for both genders, but does not repudiate sexual intimacy between married partners?

Thank goodness ...
... for Miss_W and Smarty Pants. I too advocate for abstinence before marriage, and that's because I bought into the OTHER message in my youth, hook, line and sinker, and found out the hard way what a load of bunk it is, and how alone you are when the consequences come to bear. I am fortunate that I did not end up following those beliefs to a bad end, but I found them much more persuasive (even if I did not always act on them) than the "wait until marriage" crowd's argument.

Why? Because Hollywood and the media glorify sex anywhere outside of marriage in films, books, music, and every other medium they can get control over. (In fact, think about it -- what was the last movie you saw that created a romantic impression of married people??? Or the last popular song in which someone raved about their spouse?)

But NONE of the real consequences of promiscuity are ever shown in any real detail - not the STDs, the cancer, the abortions (plural), the sorrow, the depression, the broken hearts, the broken relationships, the negative self-image -- none of it. And though they can go around glorifying promiscuity and serial sexual encounters, they are nowhere around when it comes time to pick up the pieces.

While it may be true that a therapist sees more people who are depressed, it is also true that a therapist who has been in the business for a long time can see changes and trends -- just as a physician can tell you about what he or she is seeing in terms on increased incidences of certain diseases, as compared with his or her patient load in previous years or decades. That Dr. Crouse is a therapist in no way contradicts her observations about increased numbers of students suffering from depression, OR her judicious speculation as to some of the causes.

And the bit about being a repressed anti-sexual prude is the biggest joke of them all. We require people to be at least 16 years old and to take Drivers' Education before we give them a license to drive. Does that make us an anti-driving culture? You have to be 21 to drink - are we anti-alcohol? What about marriage? Should ten-year-olds marry? You have to get a medical degree before performing surgery. I think surgery is a great thing! Shouldn't we let anyone do it who wants to, or who thinks they would enjoy it?

It's all nonsense. We put limits - and encourage limits and self-restraint - upon the very BEST things in life precisely because we value them, or because we want them done safely, or because we are concerned about the lives and livelihoods of those affected by them.

Furthermore, a great sexual relationship, and excellent sexual technique -- like anything else in life -- is a function of experience, and practice, and comfort, and intimacy. For heaven's sake, are you really buying the argument that one becomes a better lover by plying one's skills with dozens of different people, all of whom may well want something different? Or that you are a master of intimacy when you can be intimate with one stranger after another?

I don't know what kind of person would WANT someone else to RISK getting a sexually-transmitted disease, or to RISK conceiving a child out of wedlock (and once that's happened, all of your options are dramatic, life-altering and often tragic), or to RISK feeling used and discarded, or cheap, or trashy, or unappreciated, or deceived. Who, out there, thinks these are great things?

It's a constant source of amazement to me that the culture that wants to insulate everyone from the risks of EVERYTHING (on pain of tort litigation) somehow finds it in their dark hearts to encourage these sorts of damaging risks. Any why? Because if you don't have promiscuous sex, you'll never have any?

Cr@p.

Nor am I persuaded by the argument that some people have sex before marriage and turn out fine. Of course they do. And the fewer sex partners they have, or the older they are when they start having sex, the "fine-r" they will be. That just proves the point - it doesn't negate it. Just like some people can drink and drive. But the fact that some people can get away with it doesn't mean that we throw in the towel and say, "Hey - everybody do it with abandon, because getting buzzed is fun, and look at all the folks who've never had a car accident!"

The fact is, if we really cared about our young people, we would encourage them to make decisions that place them at LESS RISK, not more. That's the bottom line. Everything else is a lot of obfuscation, immaturity posing as enlightenment, and self-justifying denial.

True
Amen, Laura Hollis. Totally agree.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, to be gained by having sex before marriage. The ability to control ourselves, sexually and otherwise, is what separates us from the animals. It is possible not to have sex, but people would rather make excuses, and pretend it's some inherent need rather than a choice.

Great Column
Sex is not just recreation. Sex is designed to be a part of a commitment between husband and wife. When a husband and wife have sex, the act itself is a part of a covenant that they have made with one another – it is part of pledge to give themselves to one another in every way, and to accept one another in an absolute sense.

When a couple engages in the physical act of sex without first forming this commitment, they are defrauding one another. They are accepting one another, but not completely. They accept the other person as a sexual object capable of pleasing them, while refusing to accept the other person as an entire person. For this reason, in a culture where sex is increasingly occurring outside of marriage, men will objectify women more and more.

When you protect sex, you protect yourself. Saving yourself for marriage is wise. You can compare it to saving your money. It may be fun to spend your money on every cheap thing that comes along and tickles your fancy, but you are far better off saving it for better things. When you save yourself for marriage, you make an investment in your future husband or wife. You prove your commitment to them, and by that proof they are able to trust you absolutely. Why should anyone believe your vow of “till death do us part” when you’ve already jumped from partner to partner?

I could rant much more on the topic, but I think the point is clear. You are better off treating sex like a valuable thing. When something is valuable, people will be sure to protect it. If you treated your car like many people treat sex, what would your re-sale value be?


Even though some posters here think that only grumpy old men uphold God's laws, I am 28 years old. I married a beautiful woman last summer, and both of us were virgins until our wedding night. I wouldn’t trade what I was able to give to her for anything, and I feel sorry for any woman who has to settle for some other woman’s sloppy seconds.

Something overlooked
I'm not advocating promiscuity (especially among teens) but let's not forget that ignorance and inexperience have a price, too:

"magazines periodically run supposedly funny features recounting how various people 'lost their virginity.' Inevitably, such features make for sad reading; the writers recount embarrassment, frustration, awkwardness and disgust for themselves and their partner."

How's this for a great way to start a marriage: "embarrassment, frustration, awkwardness and disgust for themselves and their partner." Doesn't sound like much of a wedding night, does it?

Let's face it, folks: two virgins in a bed is NOT a recipe for happy, joyful intimacy whether married or not.

Live and Learn
Steering teenagers away from sex is the surest way to steer them toward it. Nothing is more curiously attractive than something that is off-limits with no real explanation.

Teaching youngsters the truth about sex is the best way to promote responsible behavior. Many mistakes are made due to ignorance - including the many sad marriages to sexually incompatible spouses, but nevermind that, we're discussing teens who will most likely not marry for a decade or more.

First of all, there is an inconvenient truth Ms Crouse and her ilk must accept: There is no such thing as "marriage" anymore - at least not as we once recognized it. There are "relationships" - some permanent, some not, and we often can't tell which ones are which for quite some time. Some of these "relationships" are given the legal status we use the word "marriage" to describe, at least temporarily, but often (about 50% of the time)this legal contract is revoked and the spouses move on to new relationships.

Once we understand this reality it is much easier to deal with horny teenagers on a realistic level.

Teens need to learn, that like their relationships, which will mature as they do, so will their understanding of sex. What most teens really want, without realizing it, is eroticism not intercourse. Believe me, fumbling, bumbling, jabbing attempts at sex are not only not pleasurable, but make kids wonder why they "didn't like" this fantastically wonderful thing, feel depressed about this big let down and become insecure about their sexuality. (Many sexual problems that women carry all through their lives begin this way.)

But translating the naturally erotic feelings of a sexually maturing body into healthy expressions and safe experimentation, along with the understanding that "higher levels" are best left until later when one has the knowledge and maturity to enjoy them better, is how we will finally become the sexually responsible and mature society that Ms Crouse and her ilk dream of, but lead us away from with every step.

Grumpy
That's why you go on a honeymoon - to figure things out together. Your argument has some truth to it, but after 3 days of marriage, it's kind of a moot point.

To Bones
Honeymoon schoneymoon. The only way to "figure out" sexual incompatibility is divorce.

Enlightened One
How do you know that the increasing divorce rates are not largely the result of a loosening of our cultural attitudes towards pre-marital sex? Premarital sex encourages distrust and insecurity, both of which are often major factors in the deterioration of marriages.

E.O.
"sexual incompatibility" is a myth. The physiology is pretty much the same no matter what man or women are married. Get your mind right and it will work.

But anyway, grumpy was making a point about inexperience, not "incompatibility".

To Bones
Bull poop. The deterioration of marriages is due to the fact that since the stigma against divorce has been lifted, very few people are inclined to stick it out in "mistake marriages" that sadly, people will continue to make in horrific numbers until we learn what a real relationship between two emotionally mature people looks like.

EO
Do you really expect anyone to believe that a long string of failed sexual relationships has the potential to prepare people for successful marriages??? "Dating mistakes" will create "Marriage mistakes". But disciple - especially sexual discipline - is what will turn people into emotionally mature people who are prepared for a good marriage.

Oopos
Change "disciple" to "discipline".

Thanks!

Bones
Sexual discipline is fine, sexual repression is not. I fear you don't know the difference.

Wrong, grumpy
Grumpy,

I disagree completely. The BEST recipe for marriage is for BOTH people to be virgins...neither will be embarrassed about their "inexperience," if you want to call it that, and they can have the fun of learning about sex TOGETHER, for the REST OF THEIR LIVES. I'd say that gives them plenty of time to practice "getting it right." As for your statement, "How's this for a great way to start a marriage: "embarrassment, frustration, awkwardness and disgust for themselves and their partner." Doesn't sound like much of a wedding night, does it?" I would question why the couple got married in the first place if they feel disgust for themselves or their partner, or feel uncomfortable with them.


Personally, I think two virgins in the same bed is a great way to start a marriage -- since I lived this exact scenario, I would beg to differ with your assumption that this is somehow "wrong." I would have it no other way.

Repression?
You clearly know nothing about my marriage!

If you wish to treat sex as an unimportant thing, that's your choice. You are free to treat sex an nothing more than the satisfaction of a biological urge. (Lenin would be proud) But I will continue to treat it as something that is valuable - it is so valuable that marriage is the only means capable of protecting it.


Drink water from your own cistern,
And running water from your own well.
Should your fountains be dispersed abroad,
Streams of water in the streets?
Let them be only your own,
And not for strangers with you.
Let your fountain be blessed,
And rejoice with the wife of your youth.
As a loving deer and a graceful doe,
Let her breasts satisfy you at all times;
And always be enraptured with her love.
Proverbs 5:15-19

(does that sound repressed to you?)

Repression
I don't get this whole repression argument. It's merely an excuse for people to do whatever the heck they want and to he** with the consequences. Should I run a red light because I feel "repressed" by laws that tell me not to, and I'm late for a meeting? It's justified, right??

If you think you're "repressed," see a therapist...maybe the one who wrote this column. So-called "repression" would still better than AIDS, STDs, unwanted pregnancy and emotional damage.

Wow!
(If you wish to treat sex as an unimportant thing, that's your choice. You are free to treat sex an nothing more than the satisfaction of a biological urge. (Lenin would be proud) But I will continue to treat it as something that is valuable - it is so valuable that marriage is the only means capable of protecting it.)

That sounds pretty shrill, Bones. I never said a word about sex being unimportant and you don't know anything about my marriage either. Sex was so important to me that I divorced my spouse because of it.

But anyway, please try to wrap you mind around this: however wonderful your marriage might be, the truth is marriage as we knew it is on sabbatical until we reach the next level of our social maturity.

Smarty Pants
repression: a mental process by which distressing thoughts, memories, or impulses that may give rise to anxiety are excluded from consciousness and left to operate in the unconscious.

Repression
Grumpy,

Sounds like something that should be worked out in an therapist's office, before marriage. I don't think practicing "sexual technique" before getting married will address such deep issues.

Oops
Sorry, the previous comment was addressing "enlightened" one, not grumpy.

Smarty Pants
That's OK, I knew you meant me.

S.P.
Sounds like you think cures are better than prevention. Why not just not be repressed?

Enlightened by what?
"That sounds pretty shrill"
-----------------------
If it's shrill, then it's shrill. It's still true.


"Sex was so important to me that I divorced my spouse because of it"
-----------------------
Nonsense. Pleasure was important to you. Sex was a means to that end. You simply don't understand what sex is.


"marriage as we knew it is on sabbatical until we reach the next level of our social maturity."
------------------------
So, in your mind, a society that lives by the demands of its most basic impulses flippantly is *more* mature than one where men and women commit to each other for life??


Not the answer
I am not an expert on repression, since I am not a therapist. However, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still would choose "repression" over the possible consequences of premarital sex. And something else...during all the years I was abstinent (until my wedding night) I NEVER felt repressed. In fact, I was happy as a clam at not having to worry about all that baggage that goes along with sex. I watched friends suffer emotionally and physically. I watched girls drop out of school after getting pregnant and having a baby on their own. I had no regrets then, and I have no regrets now.

If you think you are somehow "repressed," fine. Go talk to someone about it and work it out. I just don't think fooling around in bed is the solution for addressing ANY deep-seated emotional issue.

Not the answer
I am not an expert on repression, since I am not a therapist. However, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still would choose "repression" over the possible consequences of premarital sex. And something else...during all the years I was abstinent (until my wedding night) I NEVER felt repressed. In fact, I was happy as a clam at not having to worry about all that baggage that goes along with sex. I watched friends suffer emotionally and physically. I watched girls drop out of school after getting pregnant and having a baby on their own. I had no regrets then, and I have no regrets now.

If you think you are somehow "repressed," fine. Go talk to someone about it and work it out. I just don't think fooling around in bed is the solution for addressing ANY deep-seated emotional issue.

Oops
Sorry for the double post.

Smarty Pants
It was worth saying twice. Your experience before marriage sounds very similar to mine. I've seen people have all sorts of problems because they played around with sex before marriage. I never saw one person who chose abstinence (including myself) and regretted it. I just can't imagine marriage being any better than it is!

Agreed
Bones,

Agreed! I am so glad I waited. So glad. I will never regret my decision either. My husband was worth the wait.

Excellent Article & Posts
Grumpy:

I was a virgin when I got married and so was my husband. Our honeymoon was a wonderful time of discovery. A little awkward? Sort of. But that's what built intimacy into our marriage.

My daughter's friend was a virgin when she married. 6 months after her wedding she contracted cervical cancer from her husband, who was quite the womanizer before they got together. He wanted to marry a virgin. He gave her HPV and now they are both in marriage counselling. She is devistated and the marriage may not survive this.

We've counselled many couples over the years. Those who practiced self control sexually before they married are much more likely to practice self control in every area of their lives - spending money, eating.... you name it.

28 years in the ministry has shown me that the majority of people who wait to have sex until they are married are much happier in their marriages, more committed to working things out when it gets tough, and have a significantly lower divorce rate.

Virginity lasts just a short time when you consider how long a marriage lasts (or is supposed to last). I was 20 when I married and will be celebrating my 28th anniversary in June. It was worth the wait.

The problem
The problem with this argument against premarital sex - among teens or otherwise - is that it's totally unrealistic, and ends up doing more harm than good. Teens and twentysomethings are going to have sex; that's a fact of life, and it always has been. We'd be better served educating teens on how to do it safely, to help prevent all these anecdotal horror stories. Instead of wringing hands over schools making condoms available to schools, we should work on making it easier for teens - who are going to have sex anyway - to have access to protection.

concord
Do you really believe it is in our free society's best interest to allow the state (or school) to assume the role of deciding what is "best" for our children?

To all:
If you're happy with your decisions and they way they turned out for you, that's terrific, I'm happy for you. Just don't try to force others to make the same ones by believing things will work out as well for them. It might not.

Congratulations on your 28th anniversary, Kath. but the world is a very different place than it was 30 years ago, and will continue to change.

The more choices we have, the more open-minded and thoughtful we need to become. A laundry list of dos and don'ts "because that's just the way it is and the way it's always been" won't pass for guidance in the 21st century. People need to learn to THINK.

95%
Well, given that 95% of Americans have sex before marriage, one has to ask what the relevancy of this article is.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/11/MNG7VO2LUV1.DTL&hw=abstinence&sn=001&sc=1000

"Since 1991, teen pregnancies in the United States have declined by one-third, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Researchers at the CDC also have found that 46.8 percent of high school students say they have had intercourse, a 13 percent decline over that same period.

Another recent survey by the Guttmacher Institute revealed that 95 percent of Americans say they had premarital sex. "

So here we can see what it means to lie with statistics. Yes indeed high school students are waiting longer. Until their twenties.

What's really at stake here is American's are living longer. They are putting off the decision to get married until mid-to-late twenties on average. In some metropolitan areas, the average age to get married is approaching thirty.

Your choices then are:

1.) Wait until you are 30 to have a sex life just so you can remain a virgin.

2.) Have pre-marital sex.

Clearly, Americans have already decided.

3.) Get married when you are a teen-ager.

The abstinence only crowd has no plan to deal with the fact that people are living longer and waiting longer to get married, except to say "tough it out."

Yeah right. It would be interesting if the abstinence only crowd would support the only option that makes any sense. Start encouraging people to get married early, like in the late teens and early twentys. If the abstinence only crowd is not going to support getting married early then they've already lost.

No generation of people throughout history of man has every waited until they were 30 to get married on average.

Either get with the times are the times are going to pass you by. And at 95% it seems they already have.



Liberty:
We're not talking about "children" we're talking about young adults who are being treated like they are children and that is the problem. Mature, responsible parents will teach their teens about sex, but not all parents are mature and responsible. Too many believe in fairy tales.

concord
I beg to differ. We only believe it is unrealistic because we don't want to believe that people possess self-control and choice, and the ability to overcome impulsive desires. Sex is not a fact of life. It wasn't for me, it wasn't for my husband, it wasn't for my friends, my sister and a lot of people on this board. Planned Parenthood and other groups which stand to benefit financially from teens having sex are the ones which are opposed to promoting abstinence. I'm not saying we shouldn't provide information on safe sex, but first and foremost we need to promote that ABSTINENCE is always the BEST way.

Teens
Here's a question: What exactly do teens stand to gain from having pre-marital sex? What does anyone? If someone can give me an answer, I'd be glad to hear it.

Smarty Pants
It's fun and feels good. But I guess that's why conservatives hate it, right? You seem to think that teens having sex automatically warps them for life, and that's simply not true.

Enlightened One
the world is a very different place than it was 30 years ago
---------------------
What's changed? Sex is still exactly what it was before. STD's are every bit as common. Pregnancies still result from it. It still has just as much power as ever to impact the emotions of those who engage in it. While some people's views about sex have changed, nothing pertinent to this discussion has been altered one bit.


A laundry list of dos and don'ts "because that's just the way it is and the way it's always been" won't pass for guidance in the 21st century. People need to learn to THINK.
---------------------
That's fine - we can think seriously about these matters. But the obstacle to thinking that I’ve seen is that many people are not willing to think about sex in a realistic way. We need to put everything on the table -- including both the detriments of sex outside of marriage, and the purpose and nature of sex inside of marriage. Once all of this is acknowledged, then we are ready to think.

Nobody here has argued that people should abstain from sex until marriage because it’s the traditional thing to do. We’ve argued that people should abstain until marriage because it is the moral way to live, the safe way to live, and the happiest way to live. I expect that reasonable, unbiased thinking will come to the same conclusion.

also,
regarding your penultimate post, abstinence is always the best way to achieve what?

concord
What teens stand to gain from sex is that it is "fun and it feels good."

What do they stand to lose?

Huh????
Fun and feels good? That's a rationale for a someone to give their body away??? Gee, sounds like a recipe for success in my book!! Why don't we always do what's fun and feels good? Why don't I run down some children who are playing in the street??? It's fun and it feels good, especially if I'm late! Cool!

I think it's pointless to even debate with you.


Bones
Please read my lips: There actually is no such thing as sex outside of marriage anymore. What you may be referring to is sex outside of a relationships which I agree can be (but is not always) irresponsible.

Enlightened One
Marriage, sex, and morality haven't changed. The only thing that's changed are the percentages of people involved in each.


Smarty Pants
Again, you seem to think that all sex by teens has horrible consequences. Anything done irresponsibly, be it sex or driving, can be harmful. Sex doesn't have to be some horrible thing, it can be wonderful, and to suggest otherwise is dishonest and ultimately harmful.

concord
Do you think that sex by teens *never* has horrible consequences? Have you made any serious attempt to balance the benefits and detriments?

Do you deny that it is harmful to encourage kids to have sex prematurely, or that it is dishonest to hide the consequences from them?

Do you think that all the good there is to sex is summed up in your reply - "It's fun and feels good"?

Laura Hollis hits a Homerun !
Great Posting Laura.

Those of you that are looking for fun and feel good.

I do not advocate using illegal drugs, even once, for the same reasons I do not advocate having sex without marriage.

Just once is enough to ruin your life.

"Its fun and it feels good" is the most sophomoric and lamest reply I have seen posted. How old are you?

You want to risk your life for a possible good time? Sex outside of marriage is as risky as doing drugs. I would rather talk you out of doing anything as stupid as drugs, you might as well take up Russian Roulette.

This is not "uptight" or "prudish", your life is too important to risk for such a momentary feeling. You would be way smarter to take up sky diving or bungee jumping for a thrill.

At least in those sports the protective equipment is relatively reliable, better than 99%, the same cannot be said for the protective equipment available for sex.

It is also less likely that you will hurt someone else in the process.

Which brings me to my final point. A well adjusted person is not self-centered and self-serving, and by that definition, they will not assume it is okay to risk others in their pursuit of happiness.

Miss_W and Smarty Pants
Miss_W

The point is not that most religions have promoted chastity, the point is that certain kinds of cultures promote chastity because in a kinship-based society where goods, or land is bartered and counts as wealth, women have always been considered to be property, and therefore can't be "damaged" if they are to retain their value for trade, familial alliances, or power (one cheiftain marries his daughter to another cheiftain's son, now they have twice the land or army and do not threaten each other.)

Various societies choose various rules as a means of survival and progress - in time, religion serves to validate these rules and fix them to ensure their permanence, or at least until they no longer benefit the culture.

Smarty pants - The concept of no sex before marriage is based on a similar purpose - however, early Christian Fathers didn't like sex at all (or women, for that matter) and many of them proscribed once-a-month schedules for married people as they couldn't think of any other way to produce more Christians.

SP, PM, etc.
I guess the difference between me and you is that I see sex as a beautiful, enjoyable, intensely personal and pleasurable experience that, when done safely and responsibly, is a wonderful thing, whether you're married or not. You seem to see sex as a horrible, dangerous experience, and everyone that does it outside of marriage as a risk-taker along the lines of a Russian roulette player. What a sad way to go through life, that you can't even enjoy one of its great pleasures.

My grandparents - wonderful inexperience
There's a funny family story that, rumor has it, Grandpa told his only son, my uncle, on the eve of his wedding night. Grandpa and Grandma were 26 years old when they met and married and were virgins. Grandpa had not even kissed a woman (he was a shy young man) before he met Grandma, who had kissed a few men, but "didn't like them well enough to kiss them twice" (this according to one of my aunts, who heard the other half of the story). She'd kissed Grandpa a half-dozen times before they got married.

They were working at a cattle ranch in Montana where the men lived in a barracks and Grandma had a bed in a closet just off the accounting office (she was an accountant, he was a horse wrangler, this was 1912), so they rented a tiny room in town for the wedding night. Grandma undressed in the closet and came out in her flannel nighty with a blanket wrapped around her. Grandpa got so nervous he couldn't figure out how to unhook his suspenders and when he finally managed it, he got his foot caught in his pants while trying to take them off and ended up sprawled on the floor with Grandma laughing her head off at him. Finally, they got into bed and just sort of stared at one another.

"So what happened next?" my uncle would always recount asking. "I mean, how'd you know what to do?"

Grandpa laughed and said "Boy, we're born knowing what to do! And, we got six kids, so we must have figured it out."

My point is this -- the grandparents didn't know what they were doing that night and it DID NOT MATTER. They figured it out. It was the first of many firsts they would share in their lifelong marriage. They were bashful and clumsy that night, but they looked back on it with affection and humor.

Why is assumed that you would rather go through that experience with a stranger? You can bet that the grandparents would not have shared that story with their children if they had not been the sole stars of the comedy of errors.

I will continue to assert that those who remain virgins until marriage have the best marriages because they have nothing to compare to and therefore, no way to judge negatively. The whole "sexual imcompatibly" thing is nonsense. Men and women are made for one another and the physical compatibility is pretty much the same for all couples.

In my grandparents' day compatibility of the mind and spirit was much more important than physical compatibility. Because young people were steered away from sex, they spent time getting to know each other on that more important level. Nowadays, a lot of people, particularly young people, hop into bed barely knowing each other's names and I think a lot of them get married having never discussed the important issues of life. Sex is the central feature in modern relationships, when it really ought to be a peripheral issue. Two people who are really in love with each other's minds won't have a problem in bed, but few people who put sex first ever give themselves a chance to know each other's mind.

aurorawatcher
That's a nice story. Thanks.

No Concorde...
the difference is that you see sex the same way a teenager does - without consequence - while others are acknowledging the absolute real world empirical evidence confronting all of us each and every day. you are free to take the view you have - but you're lying if you say you've never suffered a single consequence as a result. No broken relationships. No intimacy hangups. No trust issues. No physical issues. No emotional issues. No procreation issues. No self-image issues. And not just for you - but for not a single one of your partners either.
It's an absurd claim.

Sex is a means to an end, and like all means - when confused and made an end unto itself (as sex is in your worldview,) those means can do nothing but go wrong. Refusal to see, acknowledge and understand this does not change that nature. The evidence that I speak of is everywhere and axiomatic - like day following night. Your answer to everything I speak of is "Hey kid, don't forget yer jimmy hat..." And then you say we're stupid. Well done. Tell me you're not a parent.

Mercury
Sure, that stuff happens. Guess what? That's life. Life is about experiencing things, good and bad. Now you (aurorawatcher) are trying to spin this like I'm advocating grabbing strangers off the street, having unprotected sex with them, and then leaving. If you're in a relationship with someone, or you're comfortable enough with someone to sleep with them, and you do it responsibly, then the chances of these dire consequences you've all been spouting go way down. Maybe things don't work out with that person, but if you're going to constantly worry about things not ending perfectly every time, then you might as well just stay in your room for the rest of your life. I hope you're not a parent; your kids are going to miss out, not because of the sex issue, but because you refuse to let them experience life.

Thank you...

for speaking truth.

This is a battle of world views. For every one that criticizes you there are many that agree. I remind you of Romans 11:2-4, there are many who have not bowed the knee to Baal.

concord
What's that, you say? Life is about experiencing things, good and bad? And here I've been foolishly squandering my life by trying to avoid the bad things! I shudder to think of all the delightfully bad experiences I've missed!

-I've never burned my own house down.
-I've never committed a murder.
-I've never gotten myself addicted to drugs.
-I've never contracted an STD.
-I've never declared bankruptcy.
-I've never been shot.

Just think of all the "life" I've missed!!! Should I blame my parents? They're the ones who taught me how to live before God and men with wisdom and a pure conscience, and caused life to pass me right by!!


--sorry for the sarcasm -- sometimes it's hard to resist.

Bones
Thank you for completely missing the point. I'm glad none of those things have happened to you, but I hope you don't spend your life looking over your shoulder. My point was that it's silly to let fear of failure or a negative outcome dictate how you live. You live, you fall, you pick yourself up, and you learn and become stronger from it.

also
I've had sex, I've never been married, and

-I've never burned my own house down.
-I've never committed a murder.
-I've never gotten myself addicted to drugs.
-I've never contracted an STD.
-I've never declared bankruptcy.
-I've never been shot.

It's possible!

concord
Actually, I got your point. I just think it's absurd.

It's true that in life, some bad things will happen to you, and there's no way to avoid this. But that doesn't apply to the consequences of sex outside of marriage - those consequences are totally avoidable. To put yourself in the way of these dangers is utter foolishness -- it is along the same lines as experimenting with drugs and playing Russian Roulette.

I will teach my children how to live just as my parents taught me. My kids will understand the goodness of sex, the purpose of sex, and the dangers of sex. They'll understand the commands of God. And from these, they'll make their decisions - and I'll be praying they don't choose foolishly.

Mercury
You keep talking about the downsides of normal sex.

I know for a fact that adult virginity leads to feelings of shame, rage, frustration, inadequacy, isolation, alienation, despair, depression, and suicide. If you want to follow this particular alternative lifestyle, then you had better be aware of the consequences.

Kath
You got married when you are twenty.

Not everyone can find someone to marry at that age. It is unacceptable to be a virgin at 30, let alone 90.

Bones
re: the final paragraph on your post, good for you, and I mean that.

As for sex, there are consequences both positive and negative. The issue is making sure kids know how to avoid the negative consequences, and simply saying "Don't have sex" is not a realistic solution.

Abstinence From Motor Vehicles
Abstinence from sex to avoid disease is like abstinence from motor vehicles to avoid car crashes.

"Unacceptable"
Yep, that's me -- "unacceptable."

At the age of thirty, I had never been in love. I had never known what it was to give myself to someone emotionally, nor had I known what it was to be loved in turn. But I knew that I had no interest in having sex. When I made love for the first time, I wanted it to be MAKING LOVE. (Please forgive the "When Harry Met Sally" paraphrase.)

According to 90% of what I saw in popular culture, I was getting things backwards. I was supposed to have sex first, and THEN fall in love -- preferably with the same people, but there's no point in being too particular. I still wanted love before sex, but I began to think that something was wrong with me for wanting it this way. I had the idea that if, by chance, I never fell in love, never knew what that emotional and spiritual connection was like, I might just as well die a virgin. But all the signs around me were telling me, "That's not normal."

I was "unacceptable."
But I had two choices:
1) I could hold fast to my values and beliefs; or 2) I could have sex with someone I didn't care about, just so I could feel "normal."

I went with option #1. Because I had self-respect, I also had self-control.

But I wonder how many people go with option #2, and have sex NOT because "it's fun and it feels good" but because "everybody's doing it." They may not even want to, particularly, but they do it anyway, to avoid feeling "abnormal" and "unacceptable." And in the process, they lose that priceless distinction between having sex and making love.

Perhaps the best thing we can do is equip young people to make decisions for themselves by giving them enough self-respect to hold true to what THEY want, and not let others bombard them with what they're SUPPOSED to want. Then, maybe, they'll see sex as the precious thing that it is, an expression of committed love between two human beings, and not as the two-partner equivalent of getting high on crack.

For the record
I am female, was not a virgin when I got married, and unlike alot of friends who got married because they couldn't wait to have sex, mine lasted for 45 years.

I don't regret any of my experiences, all of them were wisely chosen and instead of ruining my life, it was enhanced. Contrary to one of the posts on this blog those choices did not cause me to have one unhappy memory, one incident of VD or unwanted pregnancy, did not cause me to experience but contributed to a rich and loving life before and during a monogamous marriage. We raised two fantastic kids who made fantastic marriages of their own. They weren't virgins either, which I consider fortunate because one of them was in his late thirties when he married.

Speaking of which, I have a relative who used to brag at every opportunity that her daughter was a virgin, and was saving it for marriage. Her daughter is now 43 years old, still a virgin and lives at home with my relative and her husband. My relative doesn't brag any more. I guess her daughter has been protected from all those horrible things that mercury cited:

"broken relationships. No intimacy hangups. No trust issues. No physical issues. No emotional issues. No procreation issues. No self-image issues. "

But I wouldn't trade my life, all of it, for even one-twentieth of hers.

dbz
how sad to say that it is unacceptable! My aunt never married and was fine with it (and wasn't a lesbian!).

If that's how you feel, that's your opinion. Seems sad to me. And our youth pastor is 30 and a virgin and is waiting till he gets married. He's happy, well adjusted and not climbing the walls every night.

Aurorawatcher - LOVED your story.

One more thing
It seems to me, that in connection with my previous post about the concept of women as property, there seems to be an underlying notion among some posters that sex "uses up" people, like an idea that if we have five children, there may not be enough love left over for the additional four if we love the first one too much. But the saddest argument seems to be that if neither person has had sex, then they will never run the risk of knowing whether their married life is normal or genuinely unsatisfactory. Seems a fearful way of avoiding the only life we will ever have.

No Grammys, no Oscars for the chaste
It is interesting that those posting on this thread who "saved themselves" for marriage have reported -- unanimously, as far as I can tell -- that this act of pre-emptive loyalty to their spouse has added to their marriage and they feel they made the right decision. I find this encouraging. I also know many modern couples who still enter the marriage bed with no "experience" on either side (bride or groom), and their wholehearted joy in the discovery of each other through the first few years of their marriages is -- most of the time -- a landslide validation that Cupid still has a little spring left in his bow. And yet, in our wonderful, multi-cultural society where all perspectives are celebrated as equally valid, where is the validation of these couples' choice? When was the last time you saw a movie script or teleplay or popular song about two people who did NOT jump into bed at the first pause in the action? Perhaps the reason why some posters have said abstinence before marriage is "not realistic" is that certain segments of our society are desperately trying to convince us all that the decision to sleep around is not weak, foolish, or immoral, but only a sensible nod to the practical exigencies of our time.

Yes, some marry too young or too fast
At the same time, the often-cited counter-argument that some couples' marriages eventually fail because they married too young or too rapidly is not really evidence that everything would have been fine if they'd just felt free to have sex without marriage. In my opinion it (the mistake of marrying too young or too fast) is actually a secondary validation of the same underlying problem -- what we used to call "thinking with the wrong head."

concord
I find it odd that you say that abstinence is "not realistic" when it has been the normal way things have worked for thousands of years. There always have been and always will be people who flaunt the basic principles of morality. But I will never aspire to what is wrong, or attempt to justify or excuse it in any way.

uh, no.
Wasn't suggesting life should be lived in fear Concorde. Was suggesting it should be lived in wisdom. I mean the (W) kind of wisdom that is wise independent of our interpretation or perception - not the (w) kind of "personal" wisdom that passes for such today...

And dbz - those aren't the 'downsides' of sex, those are the realities. I counsel kids dealing with those realities every day. I find a lot of the counsel on this site to come very cheaply in light of it. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad things worked out well for JJs bimbo offspring - and JJ herself. (Hey, as far as you know all the grandkids made it out alive eh Jay?) But I still gotta explain genital warts to a new 13 year old every other tomorrow. As well as how they got them through oral copulation. And those are the good days. As for the system shock that goes along with children doing adult things they're unprepared for...well, there's just not much to be done. Can't put that genie back in the bottle, but hey - have another condom kid! (and they've gotta be using these for balloons, cause they sure don't seem to be using them. but what do you expect - they're just kids after all.)

The fact is, blinded by a self-congratulatory culture that spends it's days choke-sucking our narcissistic Id's silly, we consistently miss the most basic truths in light of cultural white noise. For example - it's generally agreed that Rock n Roll is the ultimate symbol and expression of personal freedom in our culture - yet it goes completely unnoticed that the list of things that are definitely NOT 'rock-n-roll' vastly outweighs the exceptionally narrow band of experiences that ARE rock n roll. Sex, drugs, rebellion, vulgarity, obscenity and blaspheme - that's pretty much it. Outside that - you're so NOT rock n roll. Given the IDEA of the utmost limits of personal freedom and this is our product. Telling. Unnoticed. Ignored. Call if freedom if you want, looks like chains to me...

In exactly the same way, the worlds view of sexuality actually limits rather than expands what is received from it. Outside of marriage, you are limited to the foothills of the sexual experience only. It's all bodies, positions, sensation, gymnastics and the wonder of ME! Some people, believe it or not, think that's all there IS to sex. They have no idea there is more to it than that. Now, they might later choose to try a different way - to seek a higher understanding and intimacy by getting married - and thus climb a little higher up that intimate mountain, but even still, they are barred from the peak. Because they can never know or experience it like the one who went to their marriage bed a virgin. Nor can they know or guess the gifts given and received there for that discipline - and what gifts of heart and mind to give. Sexual freedom? Found on the narrowest and lowest rung of the experiential ladder? That just doesn't hold water. But...telling. Unnoticed. Or Ignored.

As for the 'adult' virgin syndrome that many of you worry about. I'd suggest that the problems there are not the result of the persons virginity, but that the persons virginity is symptomatic of other social and/or personal problems.





dbz77
Your analogy needs some work. Let me try:

Abstaining from sex until marriage to avoid disease is like abstaining from driving on the wrong side of the road.

Yeah, that works better! :-)

Have a good night.

Bones
Your analogy does not work, unless EVERY car crash results from a car being driven on the wrong side of the road.

My reason for seeking a sexual relationship is so other people will not feel that I am less of a man than other men. No one around me, not those I grew up with, not those I went to college with, is a virgin.

My younger brother got his girlfriend pregnant. today, they and their daughter libve with my parents. If my parents ever find out that my niece is sexually active while I am still a virgin, they would think of me as inferior to a slime mold.

I do understand that people have different backgrounds which explains why people participating in this thread have different attitudes towards virginity, just like differences in backgrounds explains differences in attitudes towards homosexuality.

dbz77
dbz77:
So let me get this straight. You want to be in a sexual relationship so that others MAY (not even necessarily WILL) have a better opinion of you.

You kept saying that, over and over, on the other thread too, along with "they're all happier than me."

Well I guess those are two pretty typical teenage reasons. Oh, that’s right, you’re almost 30, right? Well, come on then, you’re more mature than that. Aren’t you? Though you wouldn’t know it by the coarse, juvenile comment you left at the end of the other thread.

If one spends less time thinking about *oneself* and instead uses his single time helping the less fortunate (you know, hungry, homeless, THAT kind of less fortunate), or even those in your life who could just use a helping hand, he is generally too busy to feel sorry for himself.

On the positive side, I guarantee his self esteem would skyrocket, he'd be less dependent on the FICKLE opinions of others, not to mention one meets some pretty nice ladies when serving those around one who are suffering in true "slime mold" lives!

the juvenile comment
For context. I left out the comment to which I referred:

dbz77 said:
"PamSparkle
Find someone less fortunate than me and help them?
I guess I'd better find a female virgin and bust her cherry wide open."

Hated copying and pasting that. But necessary for context here.


dbz77
So, let me get this straight... you're going to be a "real man" by giving in to everyone else's opinions?

"I'm a doormat, but a *manly* doormat!"

dbz77 and practicality
Your brother and his girlfriend are living with your parents, along with their baby? So, your parents are supporting their grown-up child, his girlfriend, and their grandchild, and probably thinking "When will we ever have the place to ourselves? When can we blow the wad and travel? Or can we ever even afford to retire, at all, if we spend all the money we SHOULD be saving on diapers for a grandchild?"

Meanwhile, you think that if they find out you're waiting, they'll think you, their own son, are lower than a slime mold?

Are you kidding? I'm sorry you think that. Please bear in mind:

First off, if a parent would EVER think his own son is "lower than a slime mold," why would you want to even try to please such a horrible parent? Parents are supposed to love their children, not compare them to slime molds.

Secondly, they're probably grateful that you are not screwing up their natural progression and giving them grandchildren they'll have to support, rather than saving for their own retirement, so they'll wind up working some lame job when they're 90, or else have to go on government support, because their health does not allow them to work a lame job at 90. Besides, Grandparents are supposed to be able to play with the baby, get her all hyper and excited, and then give her back to her parents, while they go take a nap.

One major benefit of saving sex for marriage, which I note no one has mentioned on this thread, is that the marriage partners finally engaging in sex are almost always self-sustaining by that point, and not dependent on parents, as most teens, and many singles, still are. They are, in fact, marrying to start a new family of their own, rather than still being "the child" at home with their own parents. Really, how many people propose marriage, with the idea that they'll continue to live at home?

Once upon a time, grandparents and great-grandparents could depend on their posterity to take care of them in thier old age, but now they are expected to save up and support themselves. How else do you explain the flourishing business or "retirement communities," or nursing homes. People aren't taking care of their parents, like they used to. Social Security is fading, Medicare is a joke, and financially responsible people just can't afford to go through financial parenthood through TWO generations. By the time their children are old enough to have children of their own, the parents are supposed to be parenting from a distance, with cut apron strings, and words of love, comfort, and wisdom, while letting the younger generation live its own life, as the older generation prepares for the quickly-approaching "too old to work" years, not still footing the bill for thier children.

From a purely practical standpoint, most parents do NOT want their children having sex, unless they are fully prepared, emotionally (whose shoulder would they come to cry on, after all?) and financially, to bear the consequences.

My aunt is raising her grandchildren as her own. They're legally adopted as her own, in fact, and I can assure you that had her daughter decided to wait for marriage, rather than have "relationships," my aunt would be proud as can be, and certainly not think her lower than a slime mold. Now she loves her grandchildren-children, but she's in bad health, tired all the time, and looking at the possibility of working until she collapses, and then not being able to pay for her own health care, because all the money goes to the grandchildren-children's expenses, rather than the IRA. This is NOT a good situation.

Just more gristle to chew on in the debate.

the juvenile comment
If that's his idea of helping someone, then I see his point. ALL the social and emotional problems in the world are thus attributed to sex, or a lack thereof, and couldn't possibly have anything to do with emotional maturity, generousity of spirit, human kindness, or a lack thereof.

I'm also an "adult virgin," and my life is quite happy, thank you, because much as I desire sex, I find great joy in other outlets. Moreover, once I do marry and can have hot sex with my husband, I won't have so much time for those other outlets as I do now.

I eagerly anticipate marriage, and all the joys that come with it. I also know, though, that it's a trade-off, and I'll lose some of the opportunities I have now. Single people have much more flexibility than married people, or people with children, who can hardly be called "single," anymore, as they have other people who depend on them. While you're an adult virgin, now is the time to do those things you won't be able to do when you have dependents. Follow your dreams! Adventure! Travel! Learn new things, meet new people, and most importantly, learn yourself, and who you are.

dbz77, you are so much more than your genitals. Don't sell yourself short by focusing all your attention on that. Look at the wonderful opportunities around you for discovery of self, of others, of education you wouldn't have the time to pursue once you marry, have children, or even just enter into a "relationship," that takes much of your time. You now have more free time than you will EVER HAVE in the rest of your life. Don't squander it feeling sorry for yourself, and don't think that everyone else who is an adult virgin is just sitting around feeling sorry for themselves, as well.

You have access to a computer, so from that I infer that you also have warm clothes, food, shelter, and electricity. How many people do not have these things? What could you do to help them? Pop their cherries? That doesn't put food on the table or pay the rent.

Someone posted that adult virginity leads to depression, low self-esteem, etc. No, it does not. Selfishness and a lack of ambition to do good leads to these problems.

Even if you help no one else but yourself, you can spend your energies doing good, building up your education, working toward your own future, rather than pitying yourself for your virginity. And if you do re-direct your energies toward uplifting, constructive activities, you'll find your depression easing, your self-esteem increasing, and may even find the love of your life in the process.

Waiting?
I am only waiting in the sense that my brother waited for a qualified, available person.

I can see that my brother is much happier than I am. By the way, he is employed; he does not lay around the house all day.

Custom is king in all times and places. The custom where I am from is to be sexually active during and past the 20's. While it would be ideal to be married, not all of us find someone to marry by 21. I was willing to get married at that age; the problem was there was no one for me to marry.

StrivingForSense
I have been single all eight years of my adult life.

Enough is enough.

from a "godless liberal"
The conservative philosophy on sex and relationships hits the right target one second and is way off base the next.

Re: Kathy. "For one to develop true pride and respect, one needs to hold on to the part of themselves that is connected to their inner being." YES! That is the bigger issue! It's not whether or not you have sex before marriage. It's a matter of having a healthy sense of self-acceptance/respect/purpose before sex becomes a part of your life. This has nothing to do with signing a marriage license!

Unfortunately, "One becomes a soul mate by starting out as friends . . ." is a complete whiff. In the last 30 years, millions of men have bought this lie, and what has happened? Many, many women -- especially conservative ones -- complain about not being able to find "real men". People don't establish healthy sexual relationships with "friends". Males in such relationships can easily lose their masculinity in the eyes of their women.

Lastly, a comment from the column. There's a good reason why chastity is associated with sexual repression -- because that's what it looks like! There are thousands upon thousands of Townhall columns and posts about how magical and blissful marital sex is vs. pre-martial sex. Where does the magic and bliss suddenly come from once you sign the marriage license with your virginity intact? I don't get it -- and I'm a married 40-year-old with two kids. In fact, I feel that the biggest mistake of my life was not gaining more dating and sexual experience before getting married. The conservative message definitely needs re-framing so that teens see it to be just as ENTICING as what our popular culture is showing them.

Striving for Sense
Striving for Sense said:
"Someone posted that adult virginity leads to depression, low self-esteem, etc. No, it does not. Selfishness and a lack of ambition to do good leads to these problems."

Well said!
I too am a happy adult virgin. My situation is a little unusual (for religious and service reasons I have made a promise to be a virgin for life) but virgins waiting for marriage are much more common and, as I see by most posts on this thread, just about everyone is happy they waited for their wedding night.
Just *cool* stories everyone!

I do feel for dbz77. It is *hard* to wait when one feels called to marriage and the right person hasn't shown up.

But at some point one has to make a choice: either "redeem the time" and strive to make oneself a better person, get out and have fun (there are endless sources of delight in the world, not just the one) and help others, or else sit around pitying oneself.

I know dbz77 already knows which is more attractive to possible future mates. I wish him the strength to get out and do it, and happiness in his future.

Totally agree
I think Striving for Sense said this: "As for the 'adult' virgin syndrome that many of you worry about. I'd suggest that the problems there are not the result of the persons virginity, but that the persons virginity is symptomatic of other social and/or personal problems."

I think that statement could be the title for just about every post on this thread. And to the person who said that "sex before marriage would leave little parts of herself scattered around" I would suggest that your sense of yourself from that comment seems rather fragile. Sex with the right person is an addition, not a subtraction.

I will say it again, chastity in history has to do with market value, and before that, a way of proving fatherhood, we have turned it into something that is more about magic and mysticism. Sex can be an expression of love and joy - regardless of whether papers have been signed at city hall.





Mercury and Pamela
Thanks for the comments about my "Bimbo Offspring". I love it when open discussion becomes so elevated.

I would say the same in regard to the kids you counsel (heaven help us) that I would say to this columnist - if you are a counselor, or a therapist, you are only seeing kids who are in crisis, and probably use not just sex but all kinds of behavior in destructive and hurtful ways. Destructive Sex is the symptom, not the problem. I'm not in favor of teen-age sex either, but if your clients are getting herpes and VD and suicidal ideation their problems are not occurring just because they have sex. They are using sex as a weapon against themselves.

Pamela said

"Then, maybe, they'll see sex as the precious thing that it is, an expression of committed love between two human beings, and not as the two-partner equivalent of getting high on crack."

An expression of love does not have to happen only between people who are married. But your analogy to what I presume is unmarried sex to getting high on crack is really odd - if you think that sex before marriage is the same as getting high on crack (are you saying that it's addictive?) you are living ina world that has come unattached from experience.

Keep the fire in your fireplace
A nice fire in the fireplace is a wonderful thing! It looks and smells wonderful, heats your house, and cooks your food. It protects you from the cold, and keeps you going! Fire has tremendous benefits! The one thing you need to remember is to make sure that you keep your fire in your fireplace!

Many of you don't yet have a fireplace, and need to build one. You need to take care that the fireplace you build is safe. Your house will very likely catch fire and burn down unless your fireplace is built so that it can contain your fires in every circumstance of life. Whether things get better or get worse, whether you're facing sickness or are in health, whether you are rich or poor, you need a fireplace that won't fail when put to the test! A poorly built fireplace is just as dangerous as just building the fire right out in your living room.

A well-built fireplace that is properly maintained will provide you with a lifetime of wonderful fires.

Virginity

Well for starter it ain't like money you don't draw interest on it

It is too good a deal and there is too much temptation to suppress it

If you are a virgin at the age of 28 you missed ten good years of sex and will never get it back

It is an individual decision and it is neither right nor wrong

Condoms are better then abstinence in controlling unwanted pregnancy

Last but not least we have a lot more pressing problems to make this an issue and worthy of editorial comment even on this right to right forum

sardine
Well for starter it ain't like money you don't draw interest on it
-------------------
You have no idea the interest I'm drawing on the gift of my virginity that I gave to my wife on our wedding night.

It is too good a deal and there is too much temptation to suppress it
-------------------
The temptation is great, but it can be overcome. I'm proof.

If you are a virgin at the age of 28 you missed ten good years of sex and will never get it back
-------------------
If you go from partner to partner before marriage, you lose the potential for the sort of committed relationship that has been prized for millenia, and you will only get that back with years and years of effort.

It is an individual decision and it is neither right nor wrong
-------------------
It is wrong, foolish, and harmful to the other person.

Condoms are better then abstinence in controlling unwanted pregnancy
-------------------
Condoms - even when used properly - fail rather frequently. Abstinence has exactly one failure in all of human history.

Last but not least we have a lot more pressing problems to make this an issue and worthy of editorial comment even on this right to right forum
-------------------
Lenin understood the role of sex in family and society, and he sought to destroy the family unity by making the sex act as meaningless as "drinking a glass of water". Attitudes toward sex are much more integral to culture than you give credit. If we're not allowed to discuss this topic, then we're only allowed to treat the symptoms and not the disease.

PStar
That's a paraphrase, so please don't put it in quotation marks.

I didn't say anything about a "syndrome that many of you worry about." (See, that's a direct quote, not a paraphrase.)

Magic and mysticism aside, I think my future husband will be much happier knowing that he doesn't have to worry about me giving him herpes or some such, because I've never been exposed, he doesn't have to worry about me comparing him to past lovers, because I've never had them, and he doesn't have to worry about me being stuck in a rut and unable to experiment because it will ALL be a new and joyful discovery to me, anyway. I would wish that I could enjoy that same safety in him, although I must admit that the odds are against it.

That said, I will add this: I insist on my future husband being, if not a literal virgin, at least a born-again, rededicated, virgin, who has, for some time before marrying me, committed to saving himself FOR ME. I can forgive past behavior, if it is there, but I'm not going to marry a man wondering who he slept with three weeks ago. It takes longer than that to get medical test results back, for goodness' sake. And by saving it up, it will be that much more exciting when he does get to have sex with me, he'll prove that he has the requisite self-control to be a good husband and father, and he'll gain a personal appreciation of the sacrifices I made for HIM, by waiting for him, and making sure that he will be able to trust me, as described in my third paragraph.

Promiscuous men who marry virgins just don't get it. They can't fully appreciate their women's sacrifice, nor the love those women feel for the men to whom they gave their all, because the men haven't denied themselves for their future mate. That's why when both partners are virgins when they marry, their love has more possibility of greatness, because they have BOTH put their partner's safety above their own immediate desires.

It's not about being "used goods," but about being treasured and cherished.

Think about it, if a woman gives you a beautiful painting, one of a kind, and you're the only one who will ever have it, it's value is intrinsically higher than if she gave you a print or even a limited edition. Supply and demand, folks. The lower the supply, the more the commodity is valued.

I, for one, want my husband to value my love more highly than anything else in this world, and so I'm reserving that supply for him alone.

Some really good thoughts today ...
When I was a little girl, I jumped rope to the rhyme: "First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes baby in a baby carriage" Anyone my age out there?

Then came the song in the 50s:
"Love and marriage, love and marriage,
Go together like a horse and carriage,
Dad was told my mother,
You can't have one without the other ... etc.

Maybe there are a few smiles out there, but I GOT
IT! Thankfully, my husband was raised with the same morals as I. And, God willing, we will celebrate our 50th this year.

JayJay
My analogy about the "two-partner equivalent of getting high on crack" was a direct reference to a poster's upthread assessment of why people have sex: "It's fun and it feels good." I've heard former drug addicts describe their drug use in the same way.

My view is that sex should be a lot more meaningful than that. It should be more than just "fun." Of course it should be fun; but at least, for me, it should not be CASUAL. I think that people who have a casual, if-it-feels-good-do-it attitude about sex are as wrong as they can be, but face-to-face I try not to be obnoxious about it; I simply explain, in terms as clear as possible, why I feel differently, and hope that may make some impression (though it usually doesn't).

But I can't help thinking we've wandered through the looking-glass somehow, when our popular culture is harder on virgins than it is on prostitutes. We've suddenly decided that people who abstain from sex should be made to feel as if THEY are in the wrong, as much as possible, as if that's the only way we can justify casual sex.

People's private choices should be a matter between themselves and their own consciousness. I think we should equip people (particularly young people) with knowledge, but they should not be bludgeoned into doing what they don't really want to do, what their HEARTS are not it, simply because they want to fit in and be "acceptable."

If you choose to think I'm somehow mentally ill because I hold this view, fine.

this issue is pointless
i really dont think that sex itself causes depression but what i do think and what most people here are forgetting is medical science has gotten better at identifying symptoms of depression, as well as ADHD( another croak if you ask me) and Autism.

I dont agree with teens having sex but teens are not anymore obsessed with sex than they ever have been. teens have always been obsessed with sex hormones make them that way whether they actively show signs of this obsession or not it is still there.

I dont think there are many psychological consequences for those older then teens to have sex outside of marriage that would not occur in marriage and if there are please enlighten me see if i can rebutt it at all hehe

Bones
If you say so ..............

Immaculate Conception ..... if you say so


agree and disagree
Ms Crouse makes some valid points, and I think it's sad and divisive if anyone has been giving her email abuse about her faith-based views on abstinence. I often deride the divisiveness that an Ann Coulter thrives on and promotes, and I'll give equal time to the religion bashers on the other end of the spectrum whose view of Christians is nothing more than caricature that deserves, at best, eye-rolling and dismissal and, at worst, ridicule.

There is too much divisiveness in this country, to a precarious point where our ability to live in a politically and socially pluralistic society has been dangerously eroded. Both sides do it, and from the left, the major way in which this manifests itself is dismissal and ridicule of religion. It's not everyone, of course, but even if it's a minority, it's enough to be a problem.

That said, I'm not so confident that Ms. Crouse's prescription can become an attainable goal for everyone, particularly when not everyone shares the same Judeo-Christian religious views. I do think sexual abstinence for teens, even if not taught as the sole form of birth control, should be held up as a worthy goal to strive for. With or without religion, we should be promoting the ideal that sex without being in a position to take responsibility for the consequences is wrong and irresponsible.

There is one other point I wanted to make, about when Ms. Crouse said this about some unmarried people recounting losing their virginity:
< < Inevitably, such features make for sad reading; the writers recount embarrassment, frustration, awkwardness and disgust for themselves and their partner. > >

My sexagenarian mother is a religious woman who waited until her wedding night. She was 22 and my father was soon to be 24. Both of them waited, apparently (something that had been held up as a model example for years during my adolescence and adulthood).

During one of our long talks this past Christmas, my mother told me the details of her own wedding night. I was quite surprised to find out that it was also one filled with embarrassment, frustration, and awkewardness that echoed for DECADES in their marriage.

I was floored by this revelation. Of course, it's not the first time I had heard of virgins-till-the-wedding night having terribly awkward experiences, but it was the first from my own mother.

My point from this anecdotal story is that being married does not make one immune to the embarrassment, frustration, awkwardness, or disgust of first-time sex. It certainly helps when the first time is with someone whom you truly love (mutually) and care about (mutually), but even that doesn't make you immune to the problems that can occur on a wedding night.

I'm just saying that avoidance of negative first-time experiences shouldn't necessarily be held up as a reason to wait until the wedding night.

It develops a poor pattern.
Pre-marital sex develops a pattern of moving from one sex partner to another as interest declines with one and attraction to another begins. Do you really think that people can suddenly turn off that behavior pattern when they get married? Pre-marital sex leads to a pattern of divorce in marriage.

Wouldn't it be encouraging ...
to daughters if Mom could say "yes" when her young virgin daughter asked her, "Were you a virgin when you married Dad?" A friend of mine who was sexually active before marriage is worried about what she will say when her daughter asks this question. She doesn't want to lie, but she says she probably will so that her daughter won't think about following in her footsteps. One of the main reasons teens submit their bodies to young men is because they tell these innocent young girls they love them, just to satisfy their sexual desires. Many teen girls feel pressure to have sex because they know this may be the only way to get a date. A very large majority of teenage girls who have had premarital sex end up with disease and emotional disorders, and say they only gave in to the guys because they were pressured into it and felt like they would never get another date. I've heard these stories from many teenage girls who regret premarital sex. And these young men grow into adults and expect to marry a virgin? Something is wrong with this picture! Men, tell your boys that they too should abstain from sex before marriage. Two virgins marrying? How exciting to experience the sensationalism of sex with each other for the first time.

sardine
Hey, you're the one who said that condoms are more effective at preventing pregnancy than abstinence. I figured that the virgin birth of Christ was the only possible moment in human history where your argument wasn't completely absurd.

texasmytexas
Have you read MY posts about it?

I am a twenty-nine-year-old virgin, and I absolutely hate it. All I want is a girlfriend to have sex with, so I can measure up to everyone around me.

Why is it that you people automatically accept the premise that premarital sex can lead to emotional problems, but dismiss any possibility that adult virginity can lead to emotional problems.

Not so.....
" dbz77 writes: Thursday, February, 15, 2007 8:55 PM
Kath
You got married when you are twenty.

Not everyone can find someone to marry at that age. It is unacceptable to be a virgin at 30, let alone 90."

Unacceptable to whom?!?! .......unacceptable to the Godless culture of Hollywood and the modern day media? Yes - unacceptable to God? Heck NO! And who are you going to listen to?

I've chosen option B - God. I'm going on 37 years old and have never had sex. I'm not gay, bedridden, mentally incompetant, in jail, socially isolated, or any other "reason" for my virginity. I also haven't exploded, self-destructed, gone mad or gone blind and I don't have hairy palms!

I just have not been in that situation in life where I've met a man and gotten to the point where marriage is an option.

As far as missing out on sex, there are plenty of things I've been missing out on the joy of so far.....let's see.....skiing, mountain climbing, flying my own airplane, ballroom dancing, owning and driving a Ferrari, living in a beach front home, having a horse, going on cruise around the world,......etc, etc......but does not doing (either not wanting or not being able to afford) these things make me an unhappy person?

Certainly not! I beleive it was Abraham Lincoln who said that you have to make your own happiness.

It's a sad, sad world when people like me are made to feel inferior, incomplete and somehow worthless and damaged simply because we don't buy into popular culture and all of its trappings. I remember when my mom took me to the doctor when I was 15 and he asked what sort of birth control I was on...when I replied "nothing" he looked at me like I had just burst into flame! I've never felt so humiliated in my life....imagine that....a young girl made to feel shame by an authority figure (like a doctor) for NOT being sexually active. The doctor then looked at me like I had three eyes when I tried to explain that I was not (and never had) had sex......

And another thing.....what sort of accomplishment is it that someone can have sex? Any monkey can copulate - as can rodents and insects...to me an accomplishment in life is to graduate college with a 3.8 GPA, to have a good job, to be sucessful at whatever endeavor one chooses to persue. It doesn't take an Albert Einstein to have sex!

Schrecken
Ninety-five percent of the nation's population has had sex. Everyone that I grew up with has had sex. Everyone that I went to college with has had sex. I am being left out of something that EVERYONE ELSE AROUND ME is in. This is why being a virgin at twenty-nine is unacceptable to ME. I have no desire to be looked down upon by these people that I know, to be felt that I am less of a man than other men.
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