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Monday, October 20, 2008
Janet M. LaRue :: Townhall.com Columnist
California Clergy Missing in Action on Prop 8
by Janet M. LaRue
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Where are California’s pastors in the fight over preserving marriage?

Californians passed Proposition 22 in 2000 with a 61.4 percent vote to keep marriage solely between a man and a woman, and to preclude California’s recognition of same-sex “marriages” executed elsewhere.

By one vote last May, the California Supreme Court held the people’s law to be “unconstitutional.”  California citizens put Prop 8 on the ballot to enshrine the definition of marriage in California’s Constitution. By all logic, Prop 8 should have an overwhelming lead in the polls and in contributions. It doesn’t. Could this be because so many clergy are AWOL on this profoundly important issue?  

According to “Allchurches.com,” California has 11,911 churches online. Prop 8’s Web site lists only 203 “churches and ministries” as sponsors. The Web site is probably behind in updating the list, but not that far.

According to the Hartford Institute for Religion Research, there are 190 “mega churches” in California with “2,000 or more persons in its worship services.” All of them should be leading the effort to preserve marriage; but most aren’t on Prop 8’s list, nor do they indicate support on their Web sites. Members should ask why. One in particular stands out.

Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, hosted a Presidential Candidates Forum at the church on Aug. 16. He asked John McCain and Barack Obama if the California Supreme Court got it wrong when it overturned the definition of marriage.

Here’s a question for Rick Warren: Do you think the court got it wrong? If you do, where’s your support for Prop 8? There’s no mention of it on Saddleback’s Web site. Your office isn’t returning calls requesting information. You hosted an AIDS summit. Where’s your Prop 8 summit?

Pastor Jim Garlow of Skyline Church of Rancho San Diego supports Prop 8; it’s the first thing you see on the church’s Web site. Same for Calvary Chapel of Downey, Jubilee Christian Center of San Jose, Shadow Mountain Community Church of El Cajon and First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton.

When the court struck down Prop 22, the judges conferred the highest level of constitutional protection on “sexual orientation,” making it equal in status to race, sex, and religion. Even liberal courts that have been friendly to the homosexual political agenda had not gone that far. The imposition of sexual behavior as an enforceable “right” poses a severe danger to religious civil liberties.   

Are those pastors who are missing in action conceding that sexual conduct which God condemns is morally equivalent to marriage? What do they think will happen in the public schools? And in the workplace? And are they going to remain silent if the court expands its “ruling” to include polygamy and marriage between close relatives?

Let’s talk directly to the pastors:  If Prop 8 fails, are you prepared for when you’re sued for refusing to perform same-sex “marriages” or refusing to rent church facilities for “gay” functions? Do you think these judges will prefer your religious liberty or their own notions of “equality” and “the compelling state interest” to end “discrimination?” If you don’t comply, how long before the state revokes your license to marry? How long before the state takes aim at your tax-exempt status?

Jesus said: “[A]t the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.’”

Not clear enough? How about: “Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.”

God gave us His pro-life-pro-marriage-pro-family plan. Adam and Eve; Noah’s Ark: four husbands, four wives, animals two-by-two, male and female. He hasn’t authorized any other version.

Hundreds of verses make clear that God-ordained marriage is limited to a man and a woman. That’s exactly what Prop 8 will do. And it’s not only a religious issue but one with far-reaching effects on all of society, which is why it is a civil issue as well.   

San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom says, “The proposed same-sex marriage ban has to be defeated.” California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger wants Prop 8 defeated, as do Sens. Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer.

When Caesar has corrupted marriage, God provides no cover to those refusing to take a public stand for marriage. There will be no place for dismissing it as “political” or claiming “separation of church and state.”

Preachers, where do you stand on Prop 8 – with God or Caesar?

John the Baptist lost his head for speaking out against the king’s perversion of marriage.

What are you afraid of losing?

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About The Author
Jan LaRue is Senior Legal Analyst with the American Civil Rights Union; former Chief Counsel at Concerned for Women; Legal Studies Director at Family Research Council; and Senior Counsel for the National Law Center for Children and Families. Be the first to read Janet LaRue's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.
Not all Calif. congregations are AWOL
LDS members living in California are encouraged by their church leaders to be politically active in supporting traditional marriage.

Maybe there are no mega cathedrals but simple LDS chapels dotting the landscape where individuals and families worship each Sunday. LDS doctrine supports marriage between a man and woman and the protection of children by such marriage.

Thank goodness for the LDS
where are the Catholics?

Yes, it's the LDS that are the backbone!
I also want to say, "Thank goodness for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"

The Mormons are busy, step up pastors!
Why does it seem the Mormons are doing 80+% of the grass roots work and funding? I'm Mormon so I'm coming from a skewed point of view probably, but why don't these other Christian pastors care about the nature of marriage or the importance of gender? I live 1 mile away from Saddleback Church and I don't see any support from them on this issue. Are you too afraid to be labeled as intolerant? Or are those pastors too afraid to lose membership ($$$) over being looked at as un-Christian by their politically correct counter parts? Was Christ "tolerant" of the politically correct climate created and governed by the sadduccees and pharisees of his time? No! Stand up for truth and your children's future now, we have 15 days left!

McCain can win on the economy!

The Economy is what most people are concerned about. McCain can win on the economy if we promote a grass roots effort that will get the country angry at the real culprits. If Republicans send out emails like I did to everyone on my email address list, then McCain could win! Elected public officials will only accept emails from their constituents.

Therefore I have access to only a few Republican politicians. If enough people who receive this email will email their friends, Republican representatives at every level from local to the president and every conservative talk show host then America will get the message.

This was the message;
------------------------------------------------
I apologize for sending this unsolicited email, but I feel every American would like to know who caused our financial collapse which resulted in your 401k and your home value to sink in value. We have been betrayed, not by the obvious greed of the banks, but by our congressmen who caused this to happen.
Let’s not put the fox in charge of the hen house. Please view all six sections of the very clearly produced video at the following link.
http://www.teleprompterpresident.com/2008/10/fnc-fbn-inves- 6.html or google the phrase, telelprompter saving our economy.

See what clinton thinks!
http://www.teleprompterpresident.com/2008/10/shocking-vide- 1.html or google the phase "Teleprompter Covering Up The Fannie Mae".
------------------------------------------------
Bob Email- netc@comcast.net


Proposition 8
I can't speak for all of CA but in Orange County, the Catholic parish priests have repeatedly spoken in their homilies about Proposition 8. And Father John Corapi has spoken on EWTN from Sacramento, CA on numerous occasions about Proposition 8 and abortion. Father Corapi has also said that the Catholic pro-abortion politicians "should have been excommunicated a long time ago."

one possibility
Many of those churches may have gay members. It is rather hard to fight to actually hurt the children in ones pews. It is very easy to hurt children if one is not close enough to them to think of them as real people. But hurting actual children is probably harder for most ministers.

Knights of Columbus fight to pass Prop 8
The "Knights of Columbus", a premier Catholic organization, has been the number one vessel by which Catholics have contributed money for the defense of traditional marriage.

I think I know where they are
I just saw a newspaper headline today that said "Religious Leaders Band Together to Oppose Prop 8."

Thanks, Knights of Columbus
I would think the Catholic bishops are speaking up in California, also. It's in our theology, catechism and should be proclaimed by them to the faithful. We all know what the Holy Father teaches.

As to hurting the children in the pews - it would be better to be hurt now at this teachable moment than later when it is too late.

Here in Seattle we are fighting I-1000 against physician assisted suicide. Today it seems like life is one big battle. Let's put on our armor and fight! Prayer is the key.

Godspeed!

One possibility
Many of those churches may have gay members.

Should the church not speak out against sin for the fear of offending someone. Is sin a problem or not? Does a church have a responsibility to help it's members turn from their sins?



Proposition 8
It's great that the Knights of Columbus has come out forcefully in support of Prop 8. And it is comforting to know that many Catholic parishes have officially expressed their support as well. But I found it a bit disappointing that support for Prop 8 was not prominently displayed on the Archdiocese of Los Angeles website. Though opposition to Prop 6 was given a big endorsement. It's my suspicion that the good Cardinal, who's politics is well known, does not wish to upset his many liberal friends. So unless Mahony decides to throw the full moral authority of the archdiocese into defending traditional marriage, I fear the passage of Prop 8 is in jeopardy.

Is it a sin if you're not a Christian?
Why do must we fuse religion and politics? I'm not a Christian, so why should I have to follow the "laws" of a fictional book? If I don't care about going to hell, why should the church? Christians are the most judgmental people in the world! What would Jesus do? In these economic hard times, his focus would be on helping the poor, the sick, the needy, not harassing the homos! I hope it doesn't pass. If you people care to "save" traditional marriage, try ending divorce!!!

You're Not Preaching To Me..
This is what David Brooks was saying on "Meet The Press" yesterday, that the fringes of the Republican party are narrowing it by driving away us moderates who might be willing to join if it weren't for this limitus test of anti-abortion, anti-assisted suicide, anti-Hollywood, anti-gay principles we have to pass. I would love to be part of a party that was strong on national defense and economic stability, which are conservative principles, but I certainly don't want the teachings of a specific ultra-orthodox religion imposed on me. Unfortunately, that is the way the Republican party is currently operating, and I have to stick to the Democratic party even though it's doing such a lousy job in Congress solely on this social limitus test. The Republican party is not like the Catholic Church! By that, it is perfectly possible to be a Republican but also be pro-choice or pro-gay or pro-Hollywood. I mean, Adam Sandler and Kelsey Grammar were supporting Rudy Giuliani, and nobody seemed to mind. The Log Cabin Republicans are an important part of the constituency to maintain a competitive edge to the opposition. Why can't any of you on the fringe just let this whole traditional marriage thing go? I don't care, and nobody I know cares, and yet I keep reading articles of these poor fools who have been tricked into constant fasting and praying. For what? Eternal salvation? Why give up your lives like that? Let the rest of us in because we want to help you in our own ways.

FIND YOUR OWN WORD

Words have meaning, and different words describe items or actions that are similar, but different.

They have already screwed up the usage of words like Qu*er and Gay, now go find your own word for two homosexuals who are committed to each other, love each other, and have performed a ceremony to advertise that union.

For example the word “Gay” is no longer useful in polite conversation between normal people, by that I mean people who do not have a certain birth defect.

That new word would also apply to any two or more people of whatever sex or relationship, who wish to live together, or at least be in constant association with each other, including the right to control healthcare, and inherit goods when death occurs, and other such things.

The dictionary says the following, so get your own words, and leave these alone.

Marriage: the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife

Husband: a man joined in marriage to a woman

Wife: a woman joined in marriage to a man

If two men say they are married to each other, do they have a marriage? Answer No.

Two families pay money each month to live in a house, is it the same? No, one pays rent, the other pays a mortgage.

Two wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a bike, the other a motorcycle.

Two multi-wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a car, the other is a truck.

If a man and a woman are married to each other, do you have a marriage? Yes, of course.


get a clue la rue!
Oh please!!!

Little ricky warren the New WOrld order quislings little purpose driven drivel was designed to make the church AWOL!

Xianity is a religion dead from the neck up! Now the ministers empty heads match their lack of spine and ballskies!

There is no other religion that has become so relvant to secular culture that it is no longer relevant at all!

As Christ said be hot or cold, but if you are luke warm I will vomit you out! And the chruch makes me want to vomit!


True Christian pastors must stand
Homosexuals abort the truth in their attempt to sustain the lie -- that promiscuous sex in varied exotic applications in any setting is legal under the "shadow" (a penumbra) of the right of privacy.

[See Beaney, The Constitutional Right to Privacy, 1962 Sup. Ct. Rev. 212; Griswold, The Right to be Let Alone, 55 Nw. U. L. Rev. 216 (1960)]

There is no “sexual ethic”, no prescribed moral code of sexual conduct endorsed by homosexuals. “Anything Goes”!

The homosexuals in California are declared as a political class on the ground they are discriminated against. They hold those who are critical of them to be intolerant, homophobic and bigots. They demand acceptance legally and morally in defiance of historic tradition that holds and sustains the truth that their same-sex sexual promiscuous conduct is "an abomination".

Homosexuals presently have the "civil right" to marry because of the California Supreme Court decision, but they will be forever considered to be controversial -- especially now that they insist that any criticism or rejection of them (gays, lesbians and bisexuals) is against the law!

This is the reason why Proposition 8 (an amendment to the California Constitution) must be approved -- especially to protect children and young adults -- for homosexuals and their supporters (PG&E, Wells Fargo, Google, Hollywood, The Teachers Union, the Democrats, et al) portend to sustain the lie that common sense and traditional standards of religious and secular sexual morality denies.


Haven't You Noticed?
Since the 60s the clergy have been part of the problem when they came out of the religious closet?

Maybe...
...the churches are silent because they know that Prop 8 is an immoral, sinful attack on fellow human beings.

Clergy
My dad was a minister. The clergy is very much a political job in addition to ecumenical, if one wishes to move up to the bigger and better (more prestigious and higher paying) churches.

The majority of clergy are not going to rock the boat.

Protest the Media - TODAY!!
It's "Protest the Media" Day. Time to send e-mails and acorns!

Visit http://www.protestthemedia.com

Let's Take Our Country BACK!!

Spread the word!

As tolerance is 'In' ....
and there are an expanding number of Muslims,
it will be interesting to watch the circus when the religion of peace can tip the scales.

Let's see how they hold up in defiance of the 'New World Order'.

Other More Pressing Issues
A lot of folks are probably of the same opinion that I am. If the qu**rs can't marry it is not the end of the world or America....Just stay out of my face. Don't flaunt your problems/lifestyle in my face. There are many more pressing issues than qu**r marriage facing America.
If we don't get to the real issues America is in deep trouble. We need energy, we need it now. We need our boarders defended, like years ago. We need America to become finacially solvent.
We do not need to go any more toward socialism.
Y'all have a good day and vote conservatively.
The freedom you save my be your own.
x---x------------x----------x------
Oh my, seems the pc police has considered word that the enlighted group calls gay to be in appropriate. Gay used to be a happy word. Clasic example as what is wrong

True Rights Do Not Obligate Others...
...without their consent. The people of California did not consent to neutering marriage licenses. That is why I am voting YES on Prop 8. There is no right to a state-issued license. Also, since California treats domestic partners as spouses, Prop 8 won't hurt anyone! It is not our job to make you feel better about yourself!

If you want to argue why we SHOULD consent to change marriage licenses, that's a debate we can have. Why not put forth your own ballot measure? But to force me to change against my will and against my vote violates MY rights. WE the people issue marriage licenses. WE the people should have the say.

Pastors need to speak out before it is too late. Freedom of religion is enumerated in the Constitution. A right to a state-issued license is NOT. Nobody is stopping same-sex couples from committing to each other, making vows, having ceremonies, living together, changing their names, signing contracts, registering as domestic partners, or asking other people (including businesses) to consider them married. But once you ASK us (the people) for something (a marriage license) we have the right to say "no".

IT'S AN ACTUARIAL ISSUE: EVERYWHERE

See, what you diehard bigots don't grasp, is that you are a rapidly shrinking minority whose day is done.

America is ashamed of its' history of bigotry and hate, and as the last hard bigots die off, their children are not maintaining their old superstitions and hates. Just look at young William Buckley...

No, it's over. California is, again, leading the way on demonstrating what love means, and will vote against hate. We are ensuring that our children, and grandchildren, and yours, have the same civil rights as every Real American.

We no longer answer to mullahs and ayatollahs whose hatreds are so clearly out of step with democracy and the promise of our country.

If you want hatred and bigotry, move to South Waziristan, where you can join the rest of the 12th century zealots.

Buh-bye.
'

.

Walrus
" But once you ASK us (the people) for something (a marriage license) we have the right to say "no". "

Just like you did for inter-racial couples?

By the way, we're not asking.

Apples and Oranges
MellorSJ2, as much as it is used, that is not a valid comparison. Those laws (which were never universal) were passed to STOP such marriages. Our universal state marriage laws always assumed marriage was between a man and a woman. They weren't implemented to stop all of those same-sex marriages that were going on back then - because there weren't any. SSM is a modern invention for the sake of garnering approval (which is strange, considering true approval can't be forced) and benefits. California law already provides the benefits.

Apples and apples, wally
"MellorSJ2, as much as it is used, that is not a valid comparison. Those laws (which were never universal) were passed to STOP such marriages."

And that is PRECISELY what Prop 8 does.

"Our universal state marriage laws always assumed marriage was between a man and a woman. They weren't implemented to stop all of those same-sex marriages that were going on back then - because there weren't any."

Yes, assumed. And that worked while gays were in the closet. But now they're not and they quite reasonably want equal rights.

"SSM is a modern invention for the sake of garnering approval"

No it doesn't. I don't need your approval.

"and benefits. California law already provides the benefits."

But federal law does not.

Once Prop 8 fails and a large state has a goodly number of marriages, how long will it be before someone challenges any federal exclusion from equal treatment?



Lisa #13
Contrary to popular OPINION, Jesus was one of the most judgemental persons to ever live. His gentleness was in teaching people not to sin while loving the sinner.

OBTW. He didn't care about peoples financial situation. He taught people to be faithful, no matter what their situation. The only real remonstration in the Bible is to take care of widows and orphans.

As to your faith situation, it seem that you have faith in yourself. Pity.

Where's Will.
This thread needs a laugher. Guess we'll have to do with craigers hate speech #18.

Gene Touchet #21
I guess you're an expert on what Biblical sin is eh. I doubt it. The Bible is not the book of Love that most people try to make it out to be. I suppose you'll have to read it to understand it. Fat chance.

Gene Touchet #21
I guess you're an expert on what Biblical sin is eh. I doubt it. The Bible is not the book of Love that most people try to make it out to be. I suppose you'll have to read it to understand it. Fat chance.

WE REALLY AREN'T ASKING...


...and the people and courts of California want and demand full civil rights for Real Americans.

Once President Obama takes office, we'll deal with this on a federal level, as well, and that, as the saying goes, will be that.

No more mullahs telling any of us what we can or can't do. Full civil rights, now.
'
WE'RE NOT ASKING.


.

Beyond the Religious Side
How convenient that you liberals will use this issue to bash your favorite whipping boy--Christians.

Ironically, the best argument for the secular view of gay marriage came from Reverend James Dobson. When asked by Larry King why he was against same-sex marriage, the internationally respected Pastor did not refer to any of the many biblical scriptures that condemn the behavior. Instead he simply said, "stand a naked man next to a naked woman and it should be obvious why these two were made to be with each other."

So while you may choose to rail against RELIGION for daring to uphold traditional gender-based coupling, you'll have a hard time convincing any intelligent person that NATURE ITSELF doesn't dictate the ideal for human sexual interaction.

And although you may think that repeating the mantra that homosexuality is NEVER A CHOICE, the facts do not support it. How else can you explain homosexual relationships between same sexes in prison where the opposite sex is not available? Or cases (like my dear lesbian friend) where women who were raped or abused early cannot bring themselves to have a relationship with a man? Why can't you admit that many environmental influences may manifest gay behaviors. And yes, many are indeed born "that way". But being that the natural order of things (procreation) requires male/female attraction, homosexuality by definition is a defect.

Either way, school rooms are NOT the place to breach the subject to young, impressionable children--unless your agenda is to increase the number of gays in society. Of course, we recognize that this is exactly what the gay lobby wants. THAT is why Proposition 8 WILL PASS HANDILY. And in the words of Gavin Newsom..."whether you like it or not!"

To Scott and others
An update from my neck of the woods. In my local area, the coordinator for the Yes on 8 campaign is mormon and most of the volunteers were mormon until recently. Just last week, a meeting was held at a Catholic church where representatives from numerous churches were present to plan what they could do to assist in the passage of Prop 8. It was an interesting evening. The meeting was held at a large catholic church, conducted by a mormon, and with input from Catholics and many other local churches. A few hecklers also showed up. Overall, it was a very productive evening.

Seen it before "truth"hound
And it's still rubbish.

Is it a commandment to not offend?
The only commandment I recall against offending someone is to not do something that would offend children, and still, "offend" encompasses much more than speaking truth that might hurt someone's feelings. So if we just tip toe around all of the time, worried about who we might offend, the state of the world will be forced upon you by those who aren't so timid to shape the world in their own false views. Don't fall prey to the tyranny of tolerance.

"Hate": intellectually bankrupt tactic
Why do liberals quickly result to anything they oppose as "hate" as a way to try to run away to a morally high ground when they can't articulate their positions? It's a crutch they use. OK, well, why can't we call gays that oppose parental rights as "heterophobes" or atheists "religiphobes"? And why do they "hate" our children so much that they want to take away parent's right to not have them forced to be taught that gay marriage is normal? I wish more people would give more tastes of their own medicine.

puh leeze Ms. LaRue
What a blatant bait job!
1. There are plenty of clergy who DO perform weddings with no need to force those who don't want to. LATimes did an article about two rabbis (with whom I'm personally acquainted and who officiated at a same sex wedding I attended) and how busy they are.

2. Gay people know the deal, and wouldn't WANT to have anything at a place of worship where the aren't allowed.

3. Her stupid swipe at the incest or polygamy angle forgets a key issue: marriage creates PRIMARY kinship between those who are not initially kin.
So the already married or closely related already HAVE that designated respect in the law, for LACK of a spouse.

And since she posits her article in 'what if?' it's conjecture. She's making a not too bright prediction because the results of marriage equality have outcomes commiserate with traditional marriage. Reality hasn't borne out this conjecture, EVER.

KentheWalrus
You're not to be consulted on human or basic civil rights. The mission statement of our nation is equal protections and access under the law.
THAT is agreed on, THAT is the contract. Men, white men, Christians and what have you, ENTITLED themselves without consent to deny fellow citizens of those rights before.
You shouldn't be in support of such a legacy.

Gay people don't require YOUR CONSENT. Their humanity and reasoned willingness to COOPERATE with society on the personal matter of marriage and other standards agreed on by the rest of society.
Since marriage, caring for children and serving country and community are noble endeavors. They are no less so by or with the CONSENT of gay people to do so.

Nobody ELSE needs your permission, so neither do gay citizens require it.

oh an KTW
This ISN'T about 'approval'. Wow you have a big head.

Gay people have LIVES to live. They have significant others AND children. Gay people have needs and obligations. And waiting for permission to attend to them, is beside the point of approval.

Agreeing that marriage is an affirming situation, then it's about MARRIAGE being a GOOD thing for those who choose it.
The point is HAVING THE CHOICE. And since other citizens can marry someone who shares their orientation,, there is no REASONABLE and RATIONAL reason that gay people NOT be included in the affirmation that marriage can give the couple AND their children AND extended family.

Everyone needs family and love, not you nor anyone else can justify why that can't be so for gay people.

Born that way?
I accept that many men feel they have no choice, that they were born gay. As a writer cites Rev. Dobson above, I like the way my wife and I fit together. I was born thinking a man sticking his little man into the rear end of another man is repugnant. I was born to think that man is just nasty. I can't help myself, I was born that way.
That's why they call it anally injected death syndrome.

Latest Polling
The latest Marist Poll shows the Proposition passing 52% to 43% against it. I wouldn't doubt the final numbers will be close to the original law that was passed with 60+% in favor four years ago.

The people have spoken. But for activist judges, the liberal agenda is dead in the water.

Go ahead and call me a Bible-thumping hater if it makes you feel better. But the source of the "hate" is quite clear on this issue. It's coming from the NO side. Yet another justification for your loss.

Don't mess with children! YES ON 8!

Still?
You people are still doing the gay bashing thing?

LDS activity
Here are some interesting statistics. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) make up about 2% of the population of California. But as of a couple of weeks ago, they had contributed 43% of the total money raised in support of Proposition 8.

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/283837/182/

Perhaps it is because the Mormons use an exclusively lay clergy, and nobody’s livelihood is dependant upon congregational support, that they can take such an active role on such a touchy subject.

God Argument Not Good Enough
"Are those pastors who are missing in action conceding that sexual conduct which God condemns is morally equivalent to marriage?"

So now every civil right we grant somebody it has to pass a litmus test for God? If all laws were like that we never would have gotten around to striking down the laws banning inter-racial marriage. How is denying a certain group (gay couples) the rights that other groups (straight couples) NOT a civil rights issue? Trying to say "God doesn't like it" isn't an argument. God doesn't like people who work on the sabbeth either but there are no debates about that so why do the cherry-picking? It's religion going too far again and for that reason, gay marriage should remain a private affair with the same rights as everybody else. To legislate otherwise is to just be a bigot.

Prop 8
I can hardly wait for the time when "gays" take over the world and there is no one left to breed.

To TruthHound
Just curious, what in the heck do mean by saying, "Don't mess with children! YES ON 8!"? Have you ever counseled a teenager who is gay?

To Matriach
Have you ever looked a graph of the human population explosion that has taken place in the last 100 years. Over a billion people live in China and the nation of India is not too far behind.

God argument?
Why are you so interested in the God argument? God isn't a registered voter in the state of CA. (At least I don't think He is. ACORN is not very active in CA so I doubt He's on the voter registration list) Speaking of ACORN, yesterday a spokesman from ACORN explained why they aren't really involved in CA. He said it's not a battleground state so we don't need to cheat in order to win. (Okay, he didn't use those exact words but that's what he meant.)

So, let's set aside the God argument and try this from a socialogical standpoint. Marriage between a man and woman has been the norm in all societies, not just Christian societies. If the God argument is the only reason against gay marriage, why have their been numerous non-Christian societies promoting marriage between a male and female?

Ex-pat
I suppose if I don't agree with everything a gay says I'm gay bashing. I must be a racist for not voting for Obama, a sexist for not voting for Hillary, a Jew hater for not voting for Lieberman, a Catholic hater for not voting for Kerry.

Perhaps there are some with an intrinsic need to be bashed or hated, but sorry I don't hate you. I don't hate the gays and lesbians that I know personally. Why would I hate those I don't know who post here?

LDS has no paid clergy
I think Matthew hit the main reason that most other Christian faith's don't support Prop. 8 as much as they should:

Perhaps it is because the Mormons use an exclusively lay clergy, and nobody’s livelihood is dependant upon congregational support, that they can take such an active role on such a touchy subj.

All the local hiearchy in the Mormon church is basically non-paid. A pastor or priest usually depends on the contributions of his parish or congregation. If they were to speak out they would lose their followers and contributors. It's sad really, since Christ's original apostles lived off their own income as well.

I've been involved in the YES for Prop. 8 campaign for the last 3 months, and I've yet to have any voluteers from other faiths actually come to help. If you really think this is important please join in and help: http://www.protectmarriage.com

daniel's posts
When one considers the etymology of his name How Ironic
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