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Tuesday, June 17, 2008
Janet M. LaRue :: Townhall.com Columnist
Battlefield 'Habeas Corpus'
by Janet M. LaRue
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Here’s my advice to our troops in harm’s way based on the U.S. Supreme Court’s reprehensible ruling June 12, which forces the military to treat enemy fighters captured in combat as if they were caught insider trading on Wall Street.

In Boumedine v. Bush and Al Odah v. United States, a 5-4 Court majority declared that illegal enemy jihadists you captured outside America, now being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have a constitutional right to challenge their confinement in civilian courts inside America.

The decision is based on a legal principle called habeas corpus, which means “you have the body.” Here’s my battlefield version: “Don’t doubt—take them out!” Give ’em a box instead of a brief.”

Thanks to five “unelected politically unaccountable judges,” as Chief Justice Roberts put it, you can no longer afford to spare their lives unless you want to:

  • Mirandize maniacs in Arabic, Farsi, Farsi Dari, Pashto, Dumari, Gurani, etc., etc., etc.
  • Gather evidence while ducking snipers and dodging roadside bombs and suicide bombers
  • Write detailed crime reports when you could be writing letters to your loved ones
  • Leave your brothers behind on the battlefield so you can appear in countless court hearings
  • Be deposed by ACLU types who don’t know war from Warhol
  • Endure cross-examination by hostile lawyers who don’t know an M-16 from an MP3
  • Be slandered by nitwit media ingrates willing to diss Iwo Jima vets in the name of environmentalism
  • Get second-guessed by overreaching judicial rogues who will demand God only knows what from you
  • Risk injury and death from the same guys you already captured after they get set free by judges back home
  • Come home to piles of rubble

Maybe you could tie a yellow ribbon ‘round a different box, and Fed-ex your captured enemies to the five judges who’ve made your job a whole lot tougher, longer and more dangerous: Anthony Kennedy, John Paul Stevens, Stephen Breyer, David Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

They don’t like us caging these animals in Gitmo, which is a whole lot homier than the hell holes they came from. So tuck in a note urging the five to take them home for care and feeding. These judges probably don’t have any guns in the house, but do remind them to dispose of knives, avoid sleeping, and hire a food taster.

Let me put in non-legalese what the Court majority did: They made it up.

They’re using their “living and breathing” Constitution to squeeze the life out of your ability to win this war. The “liberty and security” they profess to protect will be buried with us and the Constitution. Here’s their rationale, not to be confused with rational:

The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times. Liberty and security can be reconciled; and in our system they are reconciled within the framework of the law. The Framers decided that habeas corpus, a right of first importance, must be a part of that framework, a part of that law.

After admitting there’s no case in the history of our Constitution or the English Common Law that supports giving habeas rights to aliens on foreign soil, the five invented an undefined “functional” test for deciding whether constitutional rights should be given extraterritorial application.

They pretend they didn’t overrule their 58-year precedent in Johnson v. Eisentrager, which held that habeas jurisdiction didn’t extend to Germans being held in an American military prison located in post-war Germany. They pulled a “Constitutional bait and switch” on the President and the Congress, as the dissent called it, they didn’t want more criticism for throwing precedent to the dogs along with the Constitution.

The laws at issue in Boumedine and Al Odah were enacted after the President and Congress worked diligently to correct problems with prior law, which the Court had faulted in two prior cases. After refusing last year to hear the same appeal by the same detainees challenging the new law, the Court has now declared it unconstitutional on its face, even though the detainees never took advantage of the rights provided. Chief Justice John Roberts condemned that in his fervent dissent:

Remarkably, this Court does not require petitioners to exhaust their remedies under the statute; it does not wait to see whether those remedies will prove sufficient to protect petitioners’ rights.

This statutory scheme provides the combatants held at Guantanamo greater procedural protections than had ever been afforded alleged enemy detainees—whether citizens or aliens—in our national history.

Justice Antonin Scalia was scathing in his dissent:

At least 30 of those prisoners hitherto released from Guantanamo Bay have returned to the battlefield. … It was reported only last week that a released detainee carried out a suicide bombing against Iraqi soldiers in Mosul, Iraq.

During the 1995 prosecution of Omar Abdel Rahman, federal prosecutors gave the names of 200 unindicted co-conspirators to the “Blind Sheik’s” defense lawyers; that information was in the hands of Osama Bin Laden within two weeks.

The Nation will live to regret what the Court has done today.

Only God and you can save us from the consequences of this dishonorable Court ruling.  If you decide to start executing justice on the battlefield, you won’t get any grief from the millions of us who support you.

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About The Author
Jan LaRue is Senior Legal Analyst with the American Civil Rights Union; former Chief Counsel at Concerned for Women; Legal Studies Director at Family Research Council; and Senior Counsel for the National Law Center for Children and Families. Be the first to read Janet LaRue's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.
Jeff - Ain't no love-fest for Dubbya
--
Says JeffreyRO5:

"Going to bat for an administration that invaded a foreign country on a pretext, has kidnapped foreigners and spirited them off to a gulag, held for years, looking for ways to keep the Red Cross away, setting up kangaroo courts, and the list goes on. I can hardly believe this is happening under a US government...."


Hm. You don't really know all that much about government conduct in these United States yet, do you?

This is nothing compared to what prior presidential administrations have done, or how American troops have handled even legitimate prisoners of war (much less unlawful combatants and spies) since before the Revolution.

One summer job I had in college saw me working with a man who had served as a helmsman running landing craft in amphibious assaults in the Pacific during World War II. In the course of conversation, I'd learned that he'd been in on the invasion and capture of the causeway-connected islands of Roi-Namur, and asked him why there had been so few Japanese prisoners taken in that operation.

After all, these troops weren't the fanatic SNLF (the "marines" of the Imperial Navy's Special Naval Landing Force) on Tarawa.

He said "Oh, they took plenty of prisoners. They just didn't make it out to the ships.

"We had just gotten word of what had happened to our people who'd surrendered at Bataan - the Death March - and even when the troops took prisoners ashore, we'd take 'em out about halfway from the beach, lower the ramp a little, and machine-gun them off the bow and into the water."

The remarkable thing about the current "War on Terror" is the amazing *restraint* shown by the American military.

You obviously lack the knowledge to apprehend this, and perhaps that's a blessing.

But it does nothing to lend value to your opinions in the matter at hand, I assure you.

--

Off the wall subject, MLK
He did not bring the Civil Rights battle to the public square until the 1960's, with his marches.

Instead of bryce the liar asking me what I meant, he took it as an opportunity to make accusations at me.
He has brought up lots of off the wall subjects on this thread, including J Edgar Hoover.
Simply has diarrhea of the mouth and full of lies .

He is not interested in the Law or why this Court is wrong, he is just going to support them right or wrong.
Like you Jeffery, you support the terrorists over your own Nation, Military and President.

Jeff the terrorist supporter
Has no concern for the crimes of the terrorists, and imputes crime to the President.

I do not like GW Bush at all.
But the man has followed the Law.
Everyone who has read how this case got to the Supreme Court and followed this, from the beginning, knows the President has bent over backwards to follow the Law.
And to get along with the world, as well as our own home grown enemies.
This man has been attacked with VILE accusation for 7 years now, and he has just taken it.
Its time he stood up like a man and a President of the United State and not a whipping boy for you idiots.
Idiots cause you say he is committing crime, you moron


Jeffrey re:Talent Scout
Please bear in mind this is the person who calls me a liar when I point out that the MCA is unConstitutional, and yet in his posts boldly asserts that MLK didn't engage in civil rights until the 1960s, and that the military, not the SCOTUS, ended Jim Crow.

I will go along with you Jeff
When you understand the real problem is not Gitmo.
Its the over stepping authority by 5 judges.

No one's right are being violated by intent.
Dealing with they have to deal with, the US Military is the only authority over the detainees.
No Civil Court.
You do not even understand the basic transgression of the Court here.
And screw the politics of you or anyone.
This is NOT politics.
This is serious stuff the concerns our Justice System itself.
Only an idiot will make this extremely important subject about Politics.

These people are under Martial Law.
NOT Civil Law.
And you refuse to UNDERSTAND THAT.

Justice...
Justice is suppose to be blind...

Not stupid...

:)

Talent Scout, grow up
Why must you say that because many of us are extremely concerned about a lawless president, that we side with terrorists? Why do conservatives constantly create these false choices? Maybe I love America, and don't want her to compromise her cherished principles. Don't you get it, the terrorists win when they trick us into compromising that which we hold dear. Let's keep the moral high ground, let's be better than them. What the US gov. has done to alleged terrorists is unconscionable and will haunt us. Scalia says we'll live to regret reinstating habeus corpus rights on US soil (de facto in this case). I say we'll live to regret all these injustices we're guilty of, in Guantanamo Bay, in Iraq, in Afghanistan. That will be the source of another terrorist attack, not renewing habeus corpus.

America's enemies are not in Gitmo
They sit on the Supreme Court.
And there are a good number of them on this thread.
They have declared the President is the enemy and have sided with the terrorists.

Just like this last poster JefferyR05 and others, speaks plainly he/they support terrorism and the terrorists over the President and the Military.

And are the real enemies of America, right here in our midst.

Thank you Paolo
for injecting some much needed sanity. I can hardly believe I'm reading posts of Americans here. Going to bat for an administration that invaded a foreign country on a pretext, has kidnapped foreigners and spirited them off to a gulag, held for years, looking for ways to keep the Red Cross away, setting up kangaroo courts, and the list goes on. I can hardly believe this is happening under a US government; Soviet, sure; North Korean, absolutely. American?? I pray the world thinks that we've only taken temporary leave of our senses, nothing permanent. Now that we're drunk with power from our terrorism high, I wonder how we'll feel when the hangover starts.

Scalia's concern
about 30 detainees being released to the "battlefield" to fight again speaks to the military's ineptness in handling the people it has detained, not to the inappropriateness of renewing the writ of habeus corpus. Does Scalia know these people are "fighting again" or are they so angry about being illegally detained, tortured, kept apart from their families that maybe, maybe they now look at the US as an enemy worth fighting. I know, it's far-fetched. Let's not forget, this "war on terror", being fought by the military in Iraq, was of our choosing. We invaded a nation who did nothing to us (and had already suffered quite a bit under Saddam Hussein). Our president chose this little undertaking, and has violated the Constitution multiple times while in office. Thank God for a Supreme Court willing to stand up to him.

talent scout - On the battlefield...
--
...ain't ever such a privilege as habeas corpus, and nothing the "Kelo Five" mouthe or write is going to change the way things are in combat.

Not in 10 USC, and sure as hell not in the UCMJ.






==========
"In a combat situation a military unit MUST give the other side a chance to surrender. Under CERTAIN conditions.

"1) The enemy clearly signals a desire to surrender or is hors de combat.

"2) Taking the enemy prisoner will not endanger the receiving group.

"That's right. During most of the War on Terror we'd been accepting surrenders that, under the laws of war, we DID NOT HAVE TO. A side that uses 'irregulars' has three days to give them all some identifying mark saying 'this is our side.' If they don't, they are known as 'illegal combatants' and have exactly NO rights under the Geneva Convention or any other law of war. They are legally the equivalent of spies with guns and the Convention is clear that you can shoot spies. They're given a swift and not particularly just trial, guilty unless proven innocent, and after six months you can justly and legally shoot them.

"That'd clear out Guantanamo.

"Okay, so we're the good guys. We cut the bad guys some slack. I get that."

-- John Ringo

Not what I said Doc
You write to me:

"There is no reason to voice a senseless "Kill 'em all!" message that no serving officer of the U.S. military would ever adopt (for the purely cold-blooded reasons I've also discussed above)."


----
I never said to kill them all, as I do not believe that is anything but murder.
I am simply saying if they have Habeas in Gitmo, they have it on the Battle Field as well.

Making it illegal to shoot at them instead of arresting them.
This virtually transfers the Military from Combat Troops, to Police Officers.


Paolo - "Amway" style warfare...
--
...al-Qaeda's chosen mode of "multi-level marketing" distributed-source international jihad is designed to slide across borders, batten within "failed states" and under the protection of hospitable national command entities (NCEs), recruit wherever, strike whenever, kill indiscriminately (even tacitly or explicitly encouraging the franchisees to bump off Islamic non-combatants as "involuntary martyrs").

Is it therefore beyond your scope of comprehension that a "German citizen" might be "arrested in Macedonia" (I assume you mean the part of the former Yugoslavia that recently spun off to take up branding claimed by a region in the Hellenic Republic) and eventually shipped to Gitmo because somebody in the admittedly paranoid and commonly incompetent chain of command couldn't instantly and infallibly assess this particular guy's threat level and intelligence value?

I mean, it's not like the adherents of al-Qaeda and its sputniki don't do their best to keep a low profile when they're wending their way through Dar al-Harb for purposes of fun, money, reconnaisance, recruiting, or movement to contact, right?

Oh? They do?

Then grabbing this guy might have been just a wee bit better justified than Mr. Greenwald's *ENTIRELY* fair, impartial, and absolutely unprejudiced "commentary on Salon.com" led you to conclude, eh?

And even if it wasn't, you're a libertarian and you somehow expect government goons *NOT* to puck things up a bunch of times?

Like goons under the control of the Evil cadre of the Boot-On-Your-Neck Party would do it better than thugs working for the Stupid side?

--

Wrong Premises!
This whole inane article is based on at least two outright falsehoods. For more detailed info, see Glenn Greenwald's excellent commentary at Salon.com.

A huge percentage of detainees at Gitmo were not "combatants" at all! According to you "Neocon" (really, "Neo-Fascist") authoritarians, the government should have the power to arrest any poor bloke off the streets (NOT off the "battlefield") and hold him, with neither Geneva nor Habeas Corpus protections, literally FOREVER!

Nice job, comrades! The Neocon right has come full circle and embraced their intellectual forbears, the Trotskyites!

The detainees at Gitmo included a German citizen who was arrested in Macedonia, tortured, renditioned to several countries, and eventually shipped to Gitmo. He was not "captured on the battlefield."

You can read the accounts of dozens of such cases at Greenwald's column and the recent McClatchy Newspapers investigation.

BTW, I'm not a "liberal." I am a libertarian with far more concern about government power than any alleged "conservative."

talent scout - Calm the puck down, okay?
--
You don't need to get frenetic about this. The "Kelo Five" (see those four long-winded posts of mine above) have folded, spindled, and mutilated the concept of habeas corpus to stretch it into an area where by statute law and established precedent it simply does not extend.

Their reasons for doing this - under the color of the protection of individual rights - are almost certainly nothing more or less than pure politics.

All five of them have already demonstrated (remember Kelo v. New London?) that they have nothing but hatred for the concept of individual rights, and there's no reason to assume that their purpose here is anything but an attack upon a Republican presidential administration.

There is no reason to voice a senseless "Kill 'em all!" message that no serving officer of the U.S. military would ever adopt (for the purely cold-blooded reasons I've also discussed above). Making such a noise just makes one look almost as stupid and immoral as a "Liberal."

Not quite. But almost.

The nation is now faced with the problem of adopting statute law to revise 10 USC to address this latest "Kelo Five" SCOTUS criminality, and it must be done despite the handicap of a Democrat-dominated Congress.

It will be interesting to see how the Evil Party completely pucks up this job, and to record their every twitch and spasm of incompetence, cork-screwing, back-stabbing, and dirty dealing for use in the 2010 elections.

Remember 1994?

It can be made to happen again.

Let's keep that in mind, okay?

--

Here is the way the Law works
By granting Habeas Corpus, the Court is DECLARING THESE PEOPLE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

This in turn means the US Military will commit murder on innocent people if they shoot a single one of them.

This is the meaning of Habeas Corpus, to be held innocent until proven guilty.
If they are to be given such assurances by a Civil Court, then the Soldiers and Marines can be tried ad murderers for doing what the Nation has trained them to do.
Kill these SCUM in Combat

Bush MUST NOT ALLOW this INSANITY TO STAND.

This decision is like overhearing
A conversation inside an Insane Asylum by two drooling idiots, on deciding matters of Law.

Never in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD has so many MORONS SAT ON A HIGH BENCH OF LAW, IN THE KNOWN HISTORY OF MANKIND.

Once upon a time, not that long ago, these saps would have been put in straight jackets by people in white clothing, and had a 24 hour watch over the lunatics.
And kept out of the Public domain for the safety of the public

WFalicoff
The only way possible for anyone to take the view you do in support of a detainee, is because you support the terrorist over our Military.
And are saying the problem is the US Military, not the terrorists.
All falsely accused due to the rotten state of affairs the US Military is all about.

And the only reason they have arrested these particular 270 detainees out of the billions of muslims is to pick on them for personal animosity.

Setting them up, just to torture those particular innocents.
You are saying the real problem here is the US Military, and you have sided with the terrorists.
Just like this insane mad court has and is worthy of contempt and impeachment.
This affair in NONE of a Civil Courts business.
And GW if he is still a man, he will not stand for it.
Nor will the Congress, the 5 idiots will be tossed off the bench.

They are genuine morons and contemptible traitors.





New Orders
Take no Prisoners Men. If they surrender, quickly bayonet them. Don't take the chance that they may be released to come back and kill your fellow servicemen.

All the hassle over the 5 to 4 vote
Most against the decision just refuse to accept that only 6% (at most) were captured as combatants by the military. The rest were turned in for payment of a bounty. In this case, most of those turned in were probably just opposed to those who turned them in. Had our Executive Branch quickly determined which ones it had virtually no proof they were enemy combatants and released them and then gave military trials to those that remained, this Supreme Court case never would have happened. Instead, the military keep trying through legal and illegal means to extract info from them all.

The Executive Branch chose to call all the prisioners "enemy combatants" to avoid the Geneva Convention. That Convention would, if followed, have prevented the extraordinary methods actually used. The government well knew that not all the prisioners were "enemy combatants", but unless/until there were trials (even military ones), they could treat all as enemy combatants.

It was a foregone conclusion how Bush's two appointees would vote, he would not have selected them unless he knew their position and it agreed with his. This leaves the vote of unbiased Judges as 7:2.

TNP
Take No Prisoners. Shoot them all and let God sort 'em out.

Once again the Surrender Monkeys are scuppered by the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Talent Scout
There are many assertions made by the US tribunal in the Sami Al-Haj case. You can list them as many times as you like. That does them make them true. Several people who have spent to the time to investigate the primary charges have found them to be totally false.

For example The US claimed that al-Hajj had travelled to the Middle East, the Balkans, and the Caucasus for clandestine purposes.

Al-Hajj claims his visit to Kosovo was purely work-related, that a trip he made to Syria was a family holiday and that he visited Azerbaijan because his wife is an Azeri national.

A biography by Ahmad Ibrahim (granted he is a colleague of Al-Hajj at Al Jazeera) responds to many of the allegations put forth by the US "The US claims that al-Hajj ran an internet site that supported terrorists. Ibrahim denies this.

Al-Hajj is also charged by the US with arms dealing. Ibrahim describes this as "total nonsense" and believes that the allegation is possibly the result of a conversation that al-Hajj witnessed while in prison in Chaman.

Ibrahim said al-Hajj's cell-mate, a drug dealer, told Pakistan's military intelligence that he had access to a Stinger missile in Afghanistan and this led to al-Hajj being implicated.

The US claims that al-Hajj was caught entering Afghanistan illegally, but Ibrahim said his passport shows that he had a valid entry visa. The US also accused al-Hajj of interviewing Osama bin Laden, but has now dropped the charge."

I have no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who is not. Neither do you. This is why we have a legal system in the US that allows both sides to present evidence.

Can you imagine the uproar in the West if an American journalist were held in a foreign prison for 6 years, accused of spying, without a trial? I guess foreign journalists, especially ones with an Arabic connection, are not valued as much as their American counterparts by a large number of people in this country.

So where's this going?
-- More --

Civilian courts in America have developed and rigidly implement procedural strictures (such as the exclusionary rule) that make Kabuki theater look like burlesque improvisation.

Included in all this proceduralism is the disclosure to the defendant of the information upon which an argument is based for his continued detention.

Despite the fact that there is precedent in U.S. legal precedent for "state secrets privilege," what has come down in Boumediene appears to be a SCOTUS decision that the privilege of habeas corpus so thoroughly trumps the privilege of state secrets in these cases that a civilian court of law can compel the disclosure of information of potential intellegence value to enemies of these United States to individuals taken into custody in the expectation that they were hostile combatants or the equivalent thereunto.

Which just blows OpSec all to hellangone away, doesn't it?

Even if the detainee is retained in custody, the civil court proceedings are - by comparison with what goes on in a properly convened military tribunal - completely open.

Any jihadi with LexisNexis access can get enough on each case to build up a pretty useful store of knowledge on U.S. information sources, methods of operation, intentions, assets....

Well, like I said. OpSec (unlike those mythical copies of the Qu'ran) really goes down the toilet, doesn't it?

And this is what the "Kelo Five" Justices of the SCOTUS have just done to these United States.

I'm sure the "Liberals" are just kvelling about that.

But, then, we all know what treasonous sonzabitches "Liberals" are, don't we?

-- 30 --

Criminal culpability is not an issue
-- More --

In all matters military, the prime desideratum is maintenance of the objective.

Even if you get people killed - your own, the enemy's, innocent bystanders - the mission is what matters.

"Liberals" do not understand this, and nobody should ever expect them to. Better to ask why a quadriplegic doesn't go bungee-jumping.

Necessary secondary considerations are:

(a) gaining actionable military intelligence on enemy assets, capabilities, plans, intentions, mindset, and so forth;

(b) keeping the enemy from getting the same sort of information about *YOU*.

This latter concern is addressed by the expression "operational security" (OpSec).

Police have similar concerns, but of a decidedly lesser order of importance. They want to protect their informants, maintain the anonymity of their undercover officers, they have to dance around a helluva lot to do such things because....

Because civilian courts of criminal law have as a primary concern the preservation of the defendant's right to a fair and impartial trial.

This is a proper concern for a civilian court, and nobody - "Liberal" or sane - should contest its primacy. The individual human being is the most severely persecuted minority in history, and government is not only enormously powerful but also uniformly abusive of individual rights whenever and wherever its officers think they can get away with it.

Again, see Kelo v. New London.

-- More --

Why ''guilt'' doesn't enter into this
-- More --

The purposes served by policemen - even the masked, ninja-suited, sniper-rifle-toting, assault-rifle-wielding SWAT squaddies - differ radically from those for which military personnel in the combat arms are recruited, trained, and deployed.

Military guys joke about their jobs. "Breaking things and killing people" is how I've heard more than one of them explain.

This is not the policeman's function.

Cops are - at their best - people who preserve civil order and protect individuals' rights to life, liberty, and property.

At their worst, they're "law-enforcement officers."

(Note to conservatives: these roles are almost universally mutually exclusive. Entirely too many laws are violative of both rights and civil order. See again Kelo v. New London.)

The cases brought by policemen into civilian courts of criminal law derive from circumstances and motives radically different from those obtaining in armed conflicts in which national command entities (NCEs) like the government of these United States are engaged.

Motives are different. Allegations of criminality - central to a policeman's arrest of a suspect - have nothing to do with someone who gets "bagged and tagged" by an infantry squad and hustled into a Stryker.

And the processing of a prisoner at a police station has little in common (notwithstanding "Liberal" stupidity leading to their persistent error in considering these situations) with the interrogation of a prisoner taken either in combat or peripheral thereunto.

-- More --

We've been through this on other threads
--
The plain fact of the matter in Boumediene et al v Bush is that the SCOTUS majority -

- NOTE: precisely the *same* 5 justices who made up the majority in Kelo v. City of New London (545 U.S. 469 [2005]), so they've definitely got themselves a "criminal record" of contempt for the Bill of Rights -

- has cobbled together a decision that extends the jurisdiction of the civilian judiciary into matters they're not procedurally equipped, trained, or experienced sufficiently to address.

Answer this question, somebody:

Why do soldiers take prisoners?

In addition to the likelihood that *failing* to accept an enemy's surrender will (a) cause other enemies to fight to the death - which reduces one's own chance of survival - and (b) make it likely that the enemy will reciprocate and refuse *your* surrender if you're stuck in such a situation, there is the military intelligence value to be gained in examining and interrogating such prisoners as you take.

This is one of the reasons why soldiers are trained and ordered to seek contact aggressively with the enemy even in times of low cambat intensity. Prisoners are valuable because you can learn things about the enemy from them.

Sometimes you come back with high-ranking hotshots. Sometimes your captives are nothing more than fresh draftees caught hauling hot food to the guys on the MLR. Either kind of trophy might be able to tell you something potentially actionable.

These reasons have nothing to do with why police serve arrest warrants and take "suspected perpetrators" into custody.

Is this getting through to any of you "Liberal" blockheads?

Of course not.

-- More --

Buck
The original intent of the Constitution was that the Congress would make laws and the Executive would approve them. If he disagreed, he could veto it - an automatic check on their power. The judicial system was meant to insure that the laws passed met the requirements of the Constitution - another check on the system.

None of the Founding Fathers ever intended the court to make its own laws. That is what happened here. So there is no built-in control. The only solution is for Congress and the President to pass a law that follows the Constitution and does away with the judical law. It takes time, unfortunately. And since it was the SCOUS there isn't another judge who can issue a restraint until a new law is passed. And since it meets the definition wanted by the majority of Congress, it won't get passed anyway.

Post test
This is a post test only. Were it an actual post, you would have been told what to argue about.

A lot of dissent here
No consensus.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as these detainees are still tried before being released, its not all Doom and Gloom. Perhaps my youth is showing.

As someone before me pointed out, 7 of the Justices were Republican appointees, can this really be seen as a "Liberal" decision?

Maybe someone can explain to me how this affects our troops in the field? It doesn't change their rules of Engagement at all does it?

bryce
That may be the case, and if our system of apprehending these people needs to be examined, I am all for that. My point is that-based on what they are alleged to have done and their non-citizen standing-a military tribunal is exactly where they should be tried. This really is unprecedented.

During the second world war there were Weirmacht sappers who did not wear the uniform, and still others who dressed in American uniforms to infiltrate our defenses. Were those men given lawyers and tried in the American court system? No, they were tried by our military. It should continue to be the case.

As for detaining people who were caught by Pakistani bounty hunters, I admit that is problematic. But it is really little different from US cops busting someone on nothing but the word of an informant. The informants in this nation are usually granted prosecutorial immunity and often have rap sheets as long as your arm. So though I dont like the military's system of paying bounties for bad guys, is it really that different than what the cops do in our criminal justice system?

MLund and Bob
Did you realize that by the military's own admission only 6% of the detainees were arrested by the Americans. 86% were turned in by Northern Alliance and Pakistanis at a time when a 10k bounty was being paid?

The five and international law
The majority opinion justices are very fond of consulting international law and legal precedent. It is sad that these Ivy League snobs don't understand that they are at to determine Constitutionality by the Constitution of the United States of America.

Dave
Yes the court should decide, what with all their battlefield experience and their exposure to the suspects in question. They will certainly be more likely to figure out who the bad guys are from their air conditioned offices in DC.

Do you really think our military is just picking up people at random and charging them with crimes? For what reason would they do that?

The reason detainees get released from time to time is not necessarily because they are innocent, but rather because our military cannot prove their guilt. That tells me the system is working fairly well. After all if we just wanted to lock up random arabs, why not trump up false charges and fake witnesses and then send them into detention for life?

The answer is simple: we are trying to prosecute only the guilty. This decision was a travesty.

Hey no longer...
It's criterion...criterion. Criterion is one and criteria are more than one. Her point is that there is no functional difference since anyone rounded up for detention and questioning on a battlefield may seek and find release through the system of courts to find their way back to the battlefield to fight American troops again. Her points are well taken and yours are B.S.

Military Tribunals ARE Due Process
When you have to deal with something that happens in a Military Theater of Operations, the Military Tribunal system handles the charges.

This goes for U.S. Citizen soldiers as well as a Jordanians with bomb-making equipment running around Iraq firing AK-47s at U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians.

The real problem the Communist Left in this country has is that their Trial Lawyer Gentry isn't seeing any MONEY out of that due process right now.

I'm really hoping this issue is clarified as the cases of these detainees are reviewed. Those individuals picked up on the battlefield for hostile operations should be denied access to civilian courts unless there is compelling testimony or evidence to present serious doubt.

Civilian courts are not empowered by the Constitution to review the conduct of our Military. The Military is accountable to the Executive Branch, and the exercise of Executive power over the military is checked by the Legislative Branch. The Judiciary has no jurisdiction. If you don't like Military Policy you have to change it via ELECTIONS.

The idea that the law is supposed to be created by ELECTIONS and not by JUDGES is lost on a party that is owned and operated by a bunch of self-serving TRIAL LAWYERS and their cronies (read: the Democratic Party).

Judicial Review
Congress has the ability to rein in the SCOTUS through judicial review, removng cases from review by the court. Why don't the Republicans use it?

A "liberal" decision?
This web site really has gone to the dogs -- which coincides with the Republican Party being in the toilet.

7 of the members on the current Supreme Court are Republican appointees. They split 4-3.

More telling for me, there were 3 Reagan appointees on the court when the original case that inevitably lead to this decision was heard.

Kennedy and O'Connor out-voted Scalia 2-1. As far as I'm concerned, it really was a 2-0 unanimous decision.

Scalia, while technically a Reagan appointee, frequently goes off the deep end when he forgets to take his prozac.

Hey Janet
Hey dufus, at the risk of stating the obvious, the criterian by which our troops might round somebody up to place them in "temporary" detention because they were in a suspicious place or were a person of interest, is different from the criterian used to shoot them on the battlefield.

Bryce
The difference is that the clan members were american citizens those at gitmo are not.hoover was acting under orders from the Kennedy brothers.

I did not know, but do now
Paul Aussaresses

An interesting read.

As Aussaresses puts it “The justice system would have been paralyzed had it not been for our initiative. Many terrorists would have been freed and given the opportunity of launching other attacks....Even if the law had been enforced in all its harshness, few persons would have been executed. The judicial system was not suited for such drastic conditions....Summary execution was therefore an inseparable part of the tasks associated with keeping law and order.”

This man lived in the real world, and knew how to deal with it.

giving them aid and comfort

US Constitution
Article 3


Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.


If the President truly believes islamic terrorists are a danger to the Public Safety, then he must do his duty and file Impeachment Papers in the 5 Justices of the Supreme Court for Aiding and Abetting the Enemies of the United States.

They are committing Treason under the above definition.
"or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort"

This asinine decision does not give any comfort to the Public in America.
It most certainly is giving aide and comfort to terrorists around the world.

Questions
Here are some questions that might cause some thought.

Why would the US keep innocent people in custody after having years to determine thier true status? (Particularly given the public relations disaster GITMO has caused the US.)

Why did so many of the detainees the US did released show back up on a battlefield if they were not enemey combatants?

Why would any enemy combatant admit he was anything other than a simple shop keeper, shepherd, etc. when he knows to do otherwise would mean death or prision for life?

How do you assemble evidence when at the time of capture the people involved were mostly in a chaotic situation and no one thought "evidence" would later be needed?

Why do so many people believe that the enemy combatants at GITMO are mostly innocent without much hard evidence in the public venue one way or another? (The military lawyers that have spoken out about GITMO are mostly upset over the procedures to determine innocent or guilt, not whether there are a lot of innocent incarcerated people.)

What should be done with enemy combatants who confessed under interrogation/torture? Do we just turn them loose if there is no way to prove in any court that they were involved in terrorism given the inadmissibility of their confessions? (Think about the successful planner of 9-11.)

Lastly, does anyone know the name Paul Aussaresses?

Habeas Corpus
To our Troops:

The lawyers can provide the evidence, YOU just keep providing the Bodies(of terrorists).

Anyone comparing killers to Soldiers
Is a fool.
Its that simple.
The islamic terrorists are not Soldiers.
They are a criminal gang, and are not citizens of any standing anywhere in the world.
Their crimes have been outlawed by every nation on the earth, even their own islamic countries.

These people are not Soldiers, they are murderers.

No Foreign Soldier, a Lawful Combatant fighting under the Rules of War, as defined by the Geneva Conventions, in the history of the United States have been given access to a Civil Court.

There is no Law, there is no Right, that exists for even a Legal Combatant to Habeas Corpus let alone a criminal outlaw as the men in Gitmo are.

Their crimes have been outlawed by every nation on the earth.

They have no Rights in America.

We have fools running the Supreme Court and deserve IMPEACHMENT.
If GW Bush has an ounce of manhood, he will begin the process to remove these fools from the Bench.


Where's the "Checks and Balances"
The original two branches of government are kept in line by the "checks and balances" . When one branch proposes a bad law the other either vetoes it or refuses to pass the legislation, depending on which branch.
The SCOTUS, the "Court of No Resort" has decided, of its own volition, to CREATE LAW FROM THE BENCH. Its legislation has no appeals. The other two branches do check each other as to new legislation, and if there are supposed to be such checks, where are the checks and balances for the judicial branch?

Identical, absolutely identical
100 percent IDENTICAL.
Run your mouth all you want to bryce, and only a fool will follow your lies and ignorance.
No thoughtful person with an ounce of honesty will be led by obvious and intentional LIES, and then think their denials matter.
-----


bryce writes 3:56 AM EST
GITMO Identitical to occupied Germany?
-----
ts:
This is how you people TWIST WORDS.
YOU BLATANT LIAR.
I never said 'occupied Germany was like GITMO, moron.
I said Eisentanger was held IN A MILITARY PRISON, IN GERMANY LIKE THE TERRORISTS ARE HELD IN A MILITARY PRISON IN CUBA.

You twisted liar.


Your willingness to lie is as dishonorable as it gets, and you taking the side of terrorists draws the line that defines your entire person as one of them.

Read this slowly moron.
Your willing and intentional lying is despicable simply due to the seriousness of this decision, and I count you as an enemy of everything that is good and decent, in America and the World.



Eisentanger was held in a United States Military Prison, IN OCCUPIED GERMANY.
Identical circumstance to the United States Military Prison in CUBA.

You are one disgusting intentional liar.
I say no wonder hell is hot for people like you.
This subject is way too important to allow you sorry terrorist supporters a public voice without identifying you for the low life you have proven to be.
I count you as no better than the scum held in GITMO.









Prisoners of War
What part of "Prisoners of War" isn't understood? Just because they are prisoners of war does not mean they are necessarily guilty of any crimes even by our own laws.

During WWII we captured thousands of Germans. Were they guilty of crimes? Very few were and those were related primarily to the Holocaust. Most were simply honest German men who had been drafted to fight a war they didn't like. Should we have tried them for crimes? No. Should we have turned them loose then? H*** no! They would simply have started shooting at us again. We did turn them loose after the war was over.

Is our war over in Iraq? No. So why should we be trying those prisoners for crimes and turning them loose if they are innocent?

If you REALLY want to win a war
You have to be meaner, tougher and more determined than your enemy. War is anything BUT sterile and clean, neat and tidy and to think otherwise is to have lost before you've started. If you MUST go to war the time for beneficence is after it is won. America is a very beneficent country especially after winning it's conflicts. Two things that will happen if, God forbid, we are involved in future conflicts: 1. We will take no prisoners.
2. Full media blackout until it's is won so our soldiers are focused on the task at hand and not worried about how they are perceived on CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, FoxNews, etc.
"A soldier prepares for war but prays for peace."
Others just seek to tweak the noses of others out of spite never minding the overall detrimental impact it has on the country that has given him so much and asked for so little.

Protecting the innocent
Our system is based on protecting the innocent from punishment, even if it means some guilty go free - the injustice of false imprisonment is a greater loss to freedom than an unpunished crime. And on top of that, habeas corpus is there to stem the tendency for governmental tyranny. You so misunderstand this ruling that you prove yourself not only a fool, but a dangerous one to the principles this country was built on. No one is saying these people are innocent, they are saying they need to be charged, tried and end this black spot on America's greatness.

Lack of faith
You know the funny thing about the religious right is its complete and utter lack of faith.

Supposedly we are trying to "bring Democracy to Iraq".

What kind of example is being set? Do you even care? Nope.

I love this decision for a couple of reasons.

1.) It tweaks the noses of the right. Anything that tweaks the noses of the right gets an "A" in my book.

2.) It supports the spirit of the law and not the just the letter.

You know its funny how the right wants is to remember "we are at war", except when we are not at war, of course.

You see, if we were at war, these folks would have certain rights as POWs, skirting the letter of the law. Further, if these prisoners were held on American soil, they'd be given Haebas Corpus as prisoners. So Bush set up prison camp off country, again meeting the letter of the law, skirting the spirit.

I find it absolutely hilarious that the party which doesn't trust the government, does. How do you know these people are guilty of anything? Guilty until proven innocent? Nope. You people just trust George Bush at his word.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Finally, the saddest and most despicable thing La Rue said is the ole much hackneyed, "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out."

When George Washington was fighting the Revolutionary War, there was no Constitution and no US. Yet he treated his prisoners of war with far more dignity than Gitmo because Washington had faith. He also knew he had to set an example. That took real courage on his part. Courage is something the right wing is so void in they don't even understand the meaning of the word and the toss it around like they do the word "money".

Does anyone ..
suppose that we would have any of these problems if the powers that be were operating a constitutional government?
You know ....
Closed borders ....
Real money ....
Intelligent spending habits ...
Developing resources to meet the demand ...
An education system instead of propaganda industry.

Court rulings
mathman... The Supreme Court also has no jurisdiction in writing immigration law, yet have done just that.

The Supreme Court has no authority to write laws concerning what gases are emitted into the atmosphere - say carbon dioxide - yet they have declared C02 a pollutant. (Of course the remedy for CO2 is to stop breathing...)

There is also no Constitutional authority for the Supreme Court, or Congress for that matter, to prosecute war... nor to take property from the masses (population) and give it to individuals (unless those individuals are performing a service and are being compensated - say building a highway).

None of these restrictions has prevented the Supreme Court, Congress or anyone else from usurping these abilities and authorities.

And if you think they care, guess again. They get to keep their jobs, apparently, until they get bored and quit or until they get to meet the Supreme Judge.

Boumediene
Simple truth: Boumediene is an ex post facto law; SCOTUS has no authority to enact laws; ex post facto laws are unconstitutional.
Simple truth: SCOTUS does not have standing to hear such a case; determination of citizenship is the responsibility of laws enacted by Congress and signed by the President; no law has extended citizenship to foreign terrorists.
Simple truth: Guantanamo detainees do not have standing to file in any U S Court: they are not accused of any violation of statute law; terrorism conducted on foreign soil is not covered by statute law.
Three strikes: SCOTUS is out.
This was strictly a political decision; SCOTUS has replaced a government of laws with a government of men.
Ugh.

Shooting too good for Osamma
I'd rather see him hanged by the short drop method...

AFTER WE GET OSAMA
Dear soldiers:
please make sure Osama comitted a suicide with at least 20 shots..and all went thru his body...

Imright
I re-read your post.
I am hoping is is satire.

Imright
When the SCOTUS rules that the Second Amendment is an individual right, do you also support President Obamma in simply ignoring the decision?


"destroying"
sorry

This Ignorance is DETROYING THE PARTY
I am so deeply ashamed of what has become of the republican party (which I left after nearly 3 decades).

Does Ms. LaRue know that many of these people were NEVER captured on any battlefield? They were "captured" in airports, homes, and businesses going about their daily lives just like Ms. LaRue.

If Ms. LaRue were to have her wish, to KILL these people instead of capturing them and putting them in GITMO, is she actually sugggesting that our CIA gun these people down in the streets of foreign countries not at war with us? And is she suggesting we shoot them down in our airports on the way to Aunt Nellies for Thanksgiving?

Republicans have completely lost their moral compass and as such have made the evil democrats look reasonable and sensible.

God save us.

Hey, ImRight
You really wrote,
"When we send our soldiers to foreign lands all the rights of those citizens should be suspended. Any of them that cast shadows are legitimate targets and all should be at risk of being killed if it will save just one American"

You are one dangerous, sick dude. Been playing 'Rulers of the Universe' so much that it's addled your brain.

What I Say
Now, more than ever, we need another Andrew Jackson. We need a President who will simply ignore this decision and order his military to do whatever is necessary to anyone they encounter on foreign soil.

Nations that do us harm or do not support us should learn that there is a price to pay for that. Their citizens need to know that if their country threatens or harms us in any way they may suffer. This will motivate them to appeal to their rulers not to annoy us.

When we send our soldiers to foreign lands all the rights of those citizens should be suspended. Any of them that cast shadows are legitimate targets and all should be at risk of being killed if it will save just one American.

And at times of war all registered democrats, progressives, liberals, and other scum should be rounded up and confined until the hostilities end. Perhaps they can be made to labor in defense plants so that they're too tired to back stab their country.

I would support executing them too as long as it's done humanely.

Shoot the children?
In 2003, a US official admitted to the Sunday Telegraph that the CIA was detaining and interrogating children.
Discussing two boys aged seven and nine held in secret detention by the CIA, the official explained, “we are handling them with kid gloves. After all, they are only little children, but we need to know as much about their father’s recent activities as possible. We have child psychologists on hand at all times and they are given the best of care.”(*)
According to another prisoner, the boys had already been tortured by Pakistani guards(**).

How far America has fallen.

* Olga Craig, 10th March 2003. We have your sons: CIA. Sunday Telegraph.
**Amnesty International et al, 7th June 2007. Off the Record: US Responsibility for Enforced Disappearances in the “War on Terror”. http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR51/093/2007/en/ dom-AMR510932007en.html



Your advice...
You advise our soldiers to shoot down the enemy even when they throw down their arms and surrender?

What sick society produced you?

And the soldiers who do this are no longer soldiers with a code of honor - they are common murderers who give up all right to be treated under the Geneva Convention.

Before you rant further...
Ms LaRue,
I suggest that you read this article by George Will...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/was_it_re ally_the_worst_decisi.html

GITMO Identitical to occupied Germany?
Obviously you've never read the actual Eisentanger decision. In it there was an extensive discussions of the fact that the US was not the sole occupying force and that the occupation was designed in law, to be tempory with a sovterign Germany as the outcome.

The Gitmo treaty gives the US complete conteol of the territory in pertpetuity.

The issues remain the same
Whether it's Bush or the Wizard of Oz.

Congress shall pass no law suspending the writ unless in cases of rebellion or invasion.

A tribunal that allows hearsay and evidence obtained through coercion does not pass muster as due process.

Huh?
Eisenhower left office in 1960 not 1958, years after he sent the National Guard to Little Rock to defend the courts decision on Brown.

Additionally MLK's involvement in the civil rights movement started with the Montgomery bus boycott of 1955. The civil rights movement CULMINATED with the passage of legislation under Johnson.

In closing, Kennedy used the Prez perogative of sending in troops precisely because Mississipi was defying the court order issued under the aegis of the Brown ruling.

Geez guy, try cracking a book.

You are not interested in the Law
Or the Constitution bryce.
Except to come up with any argument to fight against the President.

You are a petty man, and its a waste of time talking Law or Constitution with you.

GW Bush is not a President I like very much either.

BUT, he does not deserve to be lied about as all that comes from idiots today who do not care about whats right, just care about promoting their own brand of BS.
Have at it, you are disgusting me now with your lame arguments, petty bs b*tching.

Correction
Eisenhower left office in 1960, not 1958 as I mis-stated

Off the Wall?
I am responding to your assertions that the Suspension Clause turns on defending the public safety, ignoring the stipulations of rebellion or invasion.

Again, turning the argument around, considering the obvious threat to public safety presented by the Klan, would the Prez have the power to arrest suspected Klansmen and deprive them of the right to challenge their detentions.

You err alot don't ya
bryce writes: 3:03 AM EST
Subject: Wrong on Jim Crow and Eisentanger
The SCOTUS struck down the Jim Crow laws, Eisenhower sent in troops to enforce that decision.
---
ts:
Eisenhower left office in 1958, long before MLK began his Civil Rights fight.

Civil Rights Act was in 1964 under Johnson, not Eisenhower.

1962
James Meredith becomes the first black student to enroll at the University of Mississippi. Violence and riots surrounding the incident cause President Kennedy to send 5,000 federal troops.
He done this by Presidential POWER.

Before the Court done anything, or the Congress.








byrce writes:

On Eisentanger the fact that he was being detained in Germany, a sovrerign nation, rather than Guantanamo, a territory in US control, is the reason for the denial of habeus protection.
---
ts:
He was held in a US Military Prison in Germany.
Identical to Gitmo, a Military Prison in Cuba.
---
bryce writes:

Additionally, the Eisentanger tribunals adhered to the UCMJ.
---
ts:
So do the ones today

Off the WALL!
bryce writes:- 2:45 AM EST
Subject: Ridiculous to you perhaps
But J. Edgar Hoover considered MLK a major threat to public safety, and as a consequence felt vindicated in his violating the Constitution in his efforts to 'get' King.



----
ts:
What in the world has this man's opinion about a person have to do with taking his rights of Habeas??

NOTHING!
What in the world does this man's opinion have to do with the LAW or Constitution??
NOTHING!
He had a right to investigate his communist connections, it was his job that required it.
And had a right to his opinion too.
Just like you do, even if its uneducated and wrong.


I have felt like people like you are just hard headed.
But I am coming to see you just do not have a CLUE!
How the Law, Constitution and Separation of Powers WORKS IN OUT SYSTEM!
----
bryce writes:
It is in the case of such abuses that the Suspension Clause is written as carefully as it is.

J Edgar never once arrested MLK.
Your imaginations are the problem for you to fight through, I cannot help you with that.

Wrong on Jim Crow and Eisentanger
The SCOTUS struck down the Jim Crow laws, Eisenhower sent in troops to enforce that decision. And guess what? At the time there was a hue and cry that the court was being activist in its' ruling.

On Eisentanger the fact that he was being detained in Germany, a sovrerign nation, rather than Guantanamo, a territory in US control, is the reason for the denial of habeus protection.

Additionally, the Eisentanger tribunals adhered to the UCMJ.

Supreme Already decided this issue
bryce - 2:37 AM EST
Subject: Military tribunals are Constitutional
As long as they adhere to the Uniform Code of Military Justice and do not include language which suspends the writ, a clear violation of the Suspension Clause.
----
READ IT!
Johnson v. Eisentrager, which held that habeas jurisdiction didn’t extend to Germans being held in an American military prison located in post-war Germany.

I am biased in favor of justice
And the principles of the Consitution. The military can only attest to the circumstances of arrest of 6% of those detained at GITMO. 86%were turned in by the Pakistanis or Northern Allience and are being held based on a system that allows hearsay and evidence obtained through coercion.

Read up on the details of the detainee at the heart of the ruling. Where is the due process establishing beyond a reasonable doubt that he is in fact an enemy combatant?

Ridiculous to you perhaps
But J. Edgar Hoover considered MLK a major threat to public safety, and as a consequence felt vindicated in his violating the Constitution in his efforts to 'get' King.

It is in the case of such abuses that the Suspension Clause is written as carefully as it is.

bryce, you have made so many
Mistaken statements and assumptions that has mis-guided your thoughts.

You do not know all the details concerning a single person held in Gitmo, let alone all 270 of them.

Why are you here acting as if you do cause of some unproven accusation has been made against the Military and the President?
Your BIAS is showing, badly

Military tribunals are Constitutional
As long as they adhere to the Uniform Code of Military Justice and do not include language which suspends the writ, a clear violation of the Suspension Clause.

Ridculous to compare
bryce writes: - 1:59 AM EST
Public Safety

Would you contend that their committed belief that public safety was being threatened gave them the right to detain MLK and others and deny them habeus?
---
ts:
A peaceful man who broke no laws to be arrested for by Civilian or Military to murdering scum who are not even citizens of this country.

I wan in Texas and the Military when this was going on.
We were being trained for Crowd Control, with fixed bayonets.
The US Military did in fact take over the civil law in several southern States, and suspended Jim Crow Law.

Making sure American Citizens were protected to vote and go to school.

This was done by Presidential Powers, the same powers the President has today to protect the public from mad dog islamic killers, and not give them access to Civil Courts.

All Constitutional





By whose measure?
You ignore my point Talent. Taken the other way. Because the Klan represented a threat to public safety did the Prez have the right to arrest suspected Klansmen and deny the right to habeus because of the obvious public safety concerns?

Knowing thy enemy is exactly the point
When 94% of detainees were not captured by American forces, and evidence of their involvement with hostile forces can be determined by evidence obtained by coercion, or on hearsay, how can one assert with confidence that you are in fact dealing with the enemy, and not with an innocent turned in for a 10k bounty.

I will remind you that all it took for these men to be labeled as enemy combatants was the word of a warlord turning them in for a considerable bounty.

On that note, were you aware that the detainee at the heart of the present case was arrested in Bosnia, released by the authorities there on lack of evidence, remanded to the Americans, then shunted off to GITMO.

As far as due process is concerned, he was not present at his own hearing, his 'representative' was not allowed to see the evidence against him, and he was denied the ability to call witnesses in his own defense.

By what measure is this due process?

Military Tribunals, a long history
And only a moron would say they are Unconstitutional.
Sorry, but moron is the only word that fits.



Charter of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East

Charter of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East
CONSTITUTION OF TRIBUNAL

Article 1. Tribunal Established. The International Military Tribunal for the Far East is hereby established for the just and prompt trial and punishment of the major war criminals in the Far East. The permanent seat of the Tribunal is in Tokyo.

Article 2. Members. The Tribunal shall consist of not less than six members nor more than eleven members, appointed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers from the names submitted by the Signatories to the Instrument of Surrender, India, and the Commonwealth of the Philippines.

Article 3. Officers and Secretariat.

(a) President. The Supreme Commander for the Allis Powers shall appoint a Member to be President of the Tribunal.

(b) Secretariat.

(1) The Secretariat of the Tribunal shall be composed of a General Secretary to be appointed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers and such assistant secretaries, clerks, interpreters, and other personnel as may be necessary.

(2) The General Secretary shall organize and direct the wow of the Secretariat.

(3) The Secretariat shall receive all documents addressed to the Tribunal, maintain the records of the Tribunal, provide

Article 4. Convening and Quorum, Voting and Absence.

(a) Convening and Quorum. When as many as six members of the Tribunal are present, they may convene the Tribunal in formal session. The presence of a majority of all members shall be necessary to constitute a quorum.

(b) Voting. All decisions and judgments of this Tribunal, including convictions and sentences, shall be by a majority vote of those Members of the Tribunal present. In case the votes are evenly divided, the vote of the President shall be decisive.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imtfech.htm

Finally the right question
bryce WRITES: 1:59 AM EST
Subject: Public Safety
By whose measure?

----
The Presidents
Its his sworn duty.
Glad you finally asked.
Bout time

Phony baloney
bryce writes:- 1:45 AM EST
Talent
Do you read your own posts? Your last includes language which suspends the writ not once but twice.
---
ts:
No kidding
You are the one who said its unconstitutional to suspend habeas, not me.
phony.
---


bryce writes:

What is it that you are unclear about?

----

ts:
How an adult can get so screwed up mentally in how he reads something in plain English as you do.
I will never understand it and do not want to anyway.
I want no part of the dementia it takes as seen in this abortion you support, ignorantly.

----


bryce writes:

You yourself have posted the pertinent Constitutional language...The Priviledge of the writ of Habeus Corpus SHALL NOT BE SUSPENDED unless when in cases of INVASION OR REBELLION the public safety shall require it.
--
ts:
KEY WORDS
THE PUBLIC SAFETY SHALL REQUIRE IT!
What in that plain English do you not get?

----
bryce writes:
The military tribunal acts are unConstitutional.
----
ts:
Horse manure


They have been Constitutional since 1950, at the LEAST.

Johnson v. Eisentrager, which held that habeas jurisdiction didn’t extend to Germans being held in an American military prison located in post-war Germany.

Public Safety
By whose measure? The Nixon administration and the FBI held that public safety concerns gave them the right to wiretap simply for their involvement in the anti-war and civil rights movements.

Would you contend that their committed belief that public safety was being threatened gave them the right to detain MLK and others and deny them habeus?

If concern for public safety had been their sole concern, they would not have taken the measure of explicitly including the proviso 'unless in case of rebellion or invasion.'

Know thy Enemy
Is a phrase we all know and respect, I think.
I know Military men do.

The tactics of terrorism is to ATTACK THE PUBLIC.
Not the Military.
One PERSON is charged with protecting this nation and the Public in his sworn oath.
The President of the united States.

He has very broad powers to determine how to combat an enemy that their goal is to attack the Public, and not the Military.

No Court has any Constitutional Right to INTERFERE with his Duties in how he sees the right way to go about protecting the Public from these killers.

They are not even Soldiers as the word has developed to mean, they are gang members like a street gang that uses crime against the Public.

The Publics Safety is the Responsibilty of the President.
Not the Supreme Courts duty or business.

Article 1
Section 9
Clause 2:
The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion invasion the public safety may require it.



the public safety may require it.
To be determined by the Oval Office.
NOT the Supreme Court.
The President is exercising His Constitutional Duty as he sees it and has the power of Law and Constitution to do.


Talent
Do you read your own posts? Your last includes language which suspends the writ not once but twice.

What is it that you are unclear about? You yourself have posted the pertinent Constitutional language...The Priviledge of the writ of Habeus Corpus SHALL NOT BE SUSPENDED unless when in cases of INVASION OR REBELLION the public safety shall require it.

The military tribunal acts are unConstitutional.

Wrong byrce
The subject of Public Safety is the wheels for ceasing a CITIZENS RIGHTS, to habeas corpus.


Article 1
Section 9
Clause 2

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

The publics safety is the issue in todays new world of criminal combatants.
To over look the present enemy and their tactics to demand they must first invade the USA is an obtuse foolishness of extreme idiocy.

The Supreme Court needs to follow Due Process and stop creating rights out of thin air.


Who is NOT following Due Process?
The Supreme Court IS NOT FOLLOWING DUE PROCESS OF LAW.


Talent one more time slowly
The Constitution prohibits Congress from passing a law suspending the writ of habeus corpus except in cases of rebellion or invasion. Bothe the DAT and the MCA contain lanquage which expressly suspends the writ. That is unConstitutional.

Additionally, the laws create tribunals which allow hearsay and coercised evidence, in violation of the UCMJ.

Despite your assertions otherwise all US laws, criminal or military, must pass Constitutional muster, and these do not.

The obvious solution is for Bush and the Congress to draft a tribunal law which strictly adheres to the UCMJ. By doing so they would satisfy the due process provision, and not allow the detainees access to the US civil court system.

Due Process is covered

U.S. Code




TITLE 28 > PART VI > CHAPTER 153 > § 2241
Prev | Next
§ 2241. Power to grant writ

(a) Writs of habeas corpus may be granted by the Supreme Court, any justice thereof, the district courts and any circuit judge within their respective jurisdictions.

Key words in the above is "WITHIN THEIR RESPECTIVE JURISDICTIONS."


This part is telling all, who does have, and who does not have, Jurisdiction.
e) [1] Except as provided in section 1005 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider—
(1) an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; or
(2) any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention by the Department of Defense of an alien at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, who—
(A) is currently in military custody; or
(B) has been determined by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in accordance with the procedures set forth in section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant.
(e) [1] Except as provided in section 1405 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider—
(1) an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; or
(2) any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention by the Department of Defense of an alien at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, who—

This is DUE PROCESS OF LAW.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/2241.html



If lawful enemy combatants
Do not have Habeas Corpus Rights to Civilian Courts, how is it that unlawful enemy combatants do?

They don't is the answer.
Not legally anyway

45, shoot 'em all
45 writes: One question
Is there any possibility that one or more of those persons held at Gitmo is innocent?
___________________________________

NO ONE WE KNOW CARES. SHOOT 'EM ALL.

Listen unbright, i do not care what you

Think.
Capiche?
Wanna play games with screen names, ok twit.
---


bryce writes:- 12:07 AM EST
No Talent what is new here
Is the notion put forth by this admin that due process does not apply to detainees on territories in US control.
----
ts
You are full of crap.
Overflowing crap.
Due Process is what the Detainee Law is all about.

http://www.pegc.us/detainee_act_2005.html

----
bryce writes:
Even given your oft repeated assertion that only military rules apply here, a tribunal which allows hearsay, and evidence obtained through coercion does not pass muster as due process.
----
ts:
And which way came due process from you to the Military?
unbright.
You do not have any say in what the US Military decides is relevant, nada.
Nor do you know any of the details for a single person held in Gitmo.
But does not stop you from presenting yourself as if you do know.
unbright.

----
bryce writes:
Also, as I have repeatedly stated, any law which expressly suspends habeus as the Bush/Legislature tribunals do is strictly unConstitutional.
--
ts:
A worthless opinion.
No matter how many times you say it

Actually Taft
The detainees in Eisentrager were not accorded POW status. In fact the case turned on the fact that the German Army had disbanded so they were not members of an army.

But where the present case differs is location. The court found that although they were detained on sovrerign German soil, there was no German judiciary to apply justice.

Consequently, since they were not POWs covered by the Geneva Convention, and had not been captured US controlled territory covered by the Constitution, military law applied.

The other point of divergence is that the laws creating those tribunals did not include language expressly suspending habeus as the GITMO tribunals did.

No Talent what is new here
Is the notion put forth by this admin that due process does not apply to detainees on territories in US control.

Even given your oft repeated assertion that only military rules apply here, a tribunal which allows hearsay, and evidence obtained through coercion does not pass muster as due process.

Also, as I have repeatedly stated, any law which expressly suspends habeus as the Bush/Legislature tribunals do is strictly unConstitutional.

what a parody of christian thought
What is most amusing is that the woman advocating executing helpless individuals to avoid them getting recogniztion of rather minimal human rights pretends to be a christian who values the sanctity of human life. What a joke.

Of course the fact that most of the Guantanamo inmates were not actually captured on the battlefield, and many turned out to be innocent makes the mockery of Christianity this represents even more extreme.

History

"Seventy-three of the 76 escapees were eventually recaptured. Fifty of them were shot to death by the Gestapo on Hitler's orders, a reprisal denounced by the British foreign minister, Anthony Eden, as ''cold-blooded acts of butchery'' in violation of the Geneva Conventions. Mr. Plunkett survived because Hitler's quota of executions had been exhausted by time he was caught."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9507E5DE1F3E F936A15751C0A9649C8B63&n=Top%2FReference%2FTimes%20Topics%2 FSubjects%2FD%2FDeaths%20(Obituaries)

Your ignorance is the problem
observe123
Subject: Agree with many of the posts above
this article is garbage, the government should not have the power to hold someone indefinitely without some grounds to do so, no one knows who is actually held at gitmo, most of the people there were not captured on the battlefield, and a lot of people have been released -- what it all adds up to is a murky situation at best.
----
There is an on-going procedure and if you cared you can read about it.
But you are not interested enough to find the facts, just want to offer an ignorant opinion is all.

SEC. 1005. PROCEDURES FOR STATUS REVIEW OF DETAINEES OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES.

(a) Submittal of Procedures for Status Review of Detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and in Afghanistan and Iraq-

(1) IN GENERAL- Not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense shall submit to the Committee on Armed Services and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate and the Committee on Armed Services and the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives a report setting forth--

(A) the procedures of the Combatant Status Review Tribunals and the Administrative Review Boards established by direction of the Secretary of Defense that are in operation at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, for determining the status of the detainees held at Guantanamo Bay or to provide an annual review to determine the need to continue to detain an alien who is a detainee; and

(B) the procedures in operation in Afghanistan and Iraq for a determination of the status of aliens detained in the custody or under the physical control of the Department of Defense in those countries.

http://www.pegc.us/detainee_act_2005.html

Agree with many of the posts above
this article is garbage, the government should not have the power to hold someone indefinitely without some grounds to do so, no one knows who is actually held at gitmo, most of the people there were not captured on the battlefield, and a lot of people have been released -- what it all adds up to is a murky situation at best. Given that the federal government is usually quite incompetent (the dept of education and FEMA spring to mind), I am not at all convinced that they have any idea what they are doing at gitmo either.

Mr Falicoff
This is as plain as it gets.
This is the exact words the Military declares as to the charges.
I do not care what Mr Hajj or his attorney has to say of what the charges were.
HERE IT IS, right here.



A Summary of Evidence memo on October 22, 2004, for Sami Al Hajj's Combatant Status Review Tribunal was released to the public in September 2007.[14] It states:
a. The detainee is associated with al Qaida or the Taliban:

1.

During the period 1996-2001, the detainee traveled extensively throughout the Middle East, Balkans, and the former USSR, arriving in Afghanistan in October 2001.
2.

The detainee admitted to transporting large amounts of cash from the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) to Azerbaijan on multiple occasions from 1996-2000.
3.

From 1997 through 2000, the detainee was responsible for financial and material aid for Chechen armed groups and foreign mercenaries operating in the Northern Caucausus.
4.

The detainee provided assistance, obtaining travel/immigration documents, for an Iraqi businessman moving to the U.A.E.
5.

The above Iraqi businessman is reportedly close to Usama Bin Laden.
6.

Prior to 11 September 2001, the detainee arranged for the transport of a Stinger anti-aircraft system from Afghanistan to Chechnya.
7.

Since 2000, the detainee has engaged in distributing terrorist propaganda over the internet.
8.

While attempting to re-enter Afghanistan in December 2001, the detainee was apprehended by Pakistani authorities for inconsistencies with his travel documents.

to Talent Scout
All kind of charges were made against him in 2004 including that he interviewed Bin Laden for Al Jazeera (later proven to to be untrue). Were any of these allegations proven? No.

From wikipedia we have the comments of his attorney, who at least got to meet with him:

"British human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smith represents Al Hajj, and was able to visit him in 2005. According to Smith, Al Hajj reported:

* He has been beaten. Smith said he had a huge scar on his face. [a picture of him before his detention shows no scar}
* Al Hajj witnessed guards flushing a Koran down a toilet.
* Al Hajj witnessed guards defacing a Koran with swear words.
* He has been sexually assaulted.
* He has been interrogated roughly 130 times.

On 23 November 2005, Stafford-Smith reported that, during (125 of 130) interviews, U.S. officials had questioned Sami as to whether Al Jazeera was a front for al-Qaeda.[4]

Smith offered the opinion:

"He is completely innocent. He is about as much of a terrorist as my granddad. The only reason he has been treated like he has is because he is an Al Jazeera journalist. The Americans have tried to make him an informant with the goal of getting him to say that Al Jazeera is linked to Al Qaida."

Al Jazeera has responded that Al Hajj reported his passport stolen in Sudan in 1999, and that anything done with the passport after that date was likely the work of identity thieves."

In the end Mr. Al-Haj was released. Why was he released you may ask if the US government could prove all the things it stated he did?
This is why there are courts where both sides, prosecution and defense, are given a chance to present their side of the evidence. My God what has happened to this country!

Of Course
Commander45ACP - 9:07 PM EST
Subject: One question
Is there any possibility that one or more of those persons held at Gitmo is innocent?
---
And the standard has been being met, by Military Tribunals.
The Lawful Authority over these foreign combatants.

Some have been released, and some of them have gone back to terrorism and killed American Troops.

The real issue here is the manufacturing of new authority of a Civil Court over Military and Executive.

There is no precedence for such power grabs by a court in our history.

This is a first, and there is no law they are even considering, to fulfill their own Job Description, to Judge Law.

Here, read this, its the governing law concerning the detainees in Gitmo.

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

'(e) Except as provided in section 1005 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider--

'(1) an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; or

'(2) any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention by the Department of Defense of an alien at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, who--

'(A) is currently in military custody; or

'(B) has been determined by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in accordance with the procedures set forth in section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant.'.

http://www.pegc.us/detainee_act_2005.html

One question
Is there any possibility that one or more of those persons held at Gitmo is innocent?



thats right mountain rose
thing of all the millions these defense lawyers could get suing in civil courts. with our public school educated citizens i'm sure these terrorist defendants can expect 3-4 hundred million dollar judgments against the taxpayer.

Despite WFalicoff's 1 sided comments
There is another side to the story of Sami Al Hajj
He was given a Military hearing



A Summary of Evidence memo on October 22, 2004, for Sami Al Hajj's Combatant Status Review Tribunal was released to the public in September 2007.[14] It states:
a. The detainee is associated with al Qaida or the Taliban:

1.

During the period 1996-2001, the detainee traveled extensively throughout the Middle East, Balkans, and the former USSR, arriving in Afghanistan in October 2001.
2.

The detainee admitted to transporting large amounts of cash from the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) to Azerbaijan on multiple occasions from 1996-2000.
3.

From 1997 through 2000, the detainee was responsible for financial and material aid for Chechen armed groups and foreign mercenaries operating in the Northern Caucausus.
4.

The detainee provided assistance, obtaining travel/immigration documents, for an Iraqi businessman moving to the U.A.E.
5.

The above Iraqi businessman is reportedly close to Usama Bin Laden.
6.

Prior to 11 September 2001, the detainee arranged for the transport of a Stinger anti-aircraft system from Afghanistan to Chechnya.
7.

Since 2000, the detainee has engaged in distributing terrorist propaganda over the internet.
8.

While attempting to re-enter Afghanistan in December 2001, the detainee was apprehended by Pakistani authorities for inconsistencies with his travel documents.

man, you guys are a bunch
of idiots. i'm glad you all are not defending this once great country. we'd be speaking terrorist. which you lefty lawyer dirtbags will insure in short order, i'm sure. how about the 28 released prisoners we had to re-fight after being released. i say shoot them on the battlefield and leave them to rot....just like they would to you and your family if given the change. their animals, nothing more.

Summary execution
When a soldier takes a prisoner into custody they are obliged to take reasonable steps to keep them safe. Even if they suspect a prisoner of committing war crimes they are still obliged to keep them safe, until they are handed over to those authorized to make a determination as to whether they were legitimate prisoners of war, innocent civilians, or illegal combatants, suspected war criminals.

FOLLOW THE MONEY
The Leftie Fools on the Hill (Capital Hill) are beholden to the Trial Lawyers.

I can see those bloodsuckers rubbing their hands in glee as they picture all the work these trial will bring them. After all, they can bill the international terrorists for the work.

WFalicoff
Agreed.

Gil
Respectfully, I suggest you research more fully the subject of summary executions as they relate to the laws of war and International Humanitarian Law (which the Geneva and Hague conventions fall under).

I don't think it is good advise to suggest that our soldiers execute enemy prisoners rendered hors de combat. Their job is to kill them or accept their surrender. They have no need to worry about the prisoners beyond that.

Deliberately Misleading
It is sad that a lawyer resorts to such inflamatory distortion. She vents strongly tha the Court made a ruling affecting conduct on the battlefield. This is simply NOT true. The ruling has NO effect whatsoever on ordinary POWs held in Iraq or Afghanistan, so our troops can go on fighting and imprisoning the enemy, just as they did before.

Thge ruling applies only to two groups held in Guantanamo: The bulk were taken on battlefields and accused of being "unlawful enemy combatants" and the rest, a much smaller number, were taken far from battlefields and are accused of being terrorists.

Of the first group, those accused of being "unlawful enemy combatants," if they were found not guilty of that, they would revert to being lawful combatants, meaning ordinary POWs, and they would be taken back to Iraq and Afghanistan and held in POW camps there. Accused terrorists are different. If there is no evidence against them, they would have to be let go. But who says that there's no evidence?

We do not win wars by becoming like the enemy. We win by holding to our great traditions, one of which is practicing justice even to our enemies.


To Commander
If you are referring to my post, you apparently did not read my entire statement. I do not support the shooting on the spot of prisoners of war, suspects turned in by others, journalists found on the battlefield or near a battlefield. Clearly my statement relating to the position of Justice Scalia was meant to be sarcastic. It seems that "conservative" Supreme court judges think it is fine to hold individuals indefinitely without any chance to a trial or access to the outside world. As long as the government states they are "terrorists" ipso facto "unlawful enemy combatants" this is sufficient grounds to hold them incommunicado. A majority of conservatives appear to find nothing wrong with torturing such individuals using such techniques as waterboarding, stress positions and in several cases electrical shock. They appear to be willing to do anything to these individuals as they are all assumed to be dangerous terrorists. (Even though hundreds of individuals from GITMO were released without trial after years in detention.) Hence my sarcastic statement why not just shoot them and get it over with. This is not how the America I grew up in is supposed to behave. It seems to me that conservatives who espouse this philosophy are no different than the heinous actions of a tin pot dictator from a Banana Republic. I am sure that there are many dangerous people at Gitmo. Surely after 6 years we should be able to prove who they are, why they are there and punish them appropriately.

Summary executions

George Mason...
and you?



Commander45ACP

Both the Hague Convention and the Geneva Convention permit summary execution of persons found in the combat zone, in civilian clothes, carrying weapons.

What law school graduated you?

Do This
What should happen now, but which won't, of course, is for all the true patriotic Americans who ordinarily enlist in the military, to stop. Those in the services should simply get out when their time is up.

It is becoming more clear every day that this nation is perhaps not worth risking any more valiant lives.

We sent them over to Arabia and told them not to win because it might enrage the enemy and offend the global community. So they've languished over there for five years now tredding water because they're not allowed to do what they're trained to do: win wars and come home.

Then we forgot about them and allowed our domestic enemies to further hamstring the war and set the rules of engagement. Our GOP "leaders" have been to cowardly to openly and boldly defend the troops and the mission and they surrendered the political field to the Left so they wouldn't be omitted from DC cocktail party lists.

At least half the country openly supports the enemy and our defeat. They've pushed for more restrictions on our guys and encourage willing democrat politicians to conduct investigations and hearings to intimidate Pentagon commanders.

After our attack on 9/11 what have we accomplished after a fortune of our taxes and over 4000 of our best citizens? We've succeeded in getting extraordinary constitutional rights to the subhuman garbage that are allied with the 9/11 conspirators and who strive daily to eliminate us all.

Let our ruling elites and judges defend themselves. No military or law enforcement lives should be risked to protect civil servants who put us in danger and have no regard for our lives.

Let the sons and daughters of Harvard and other schools end up face down in some dirty 3rd world cess pool and let our kids be bop around the hood and have fun.

Your advice?
You advise our soldiers to shoot down the enemy even when they throw down their arms and surrender?
That is your advice?
What sorry assed law school graduated you?

Double Think Alive and Well
The problem with Ms. Larue's analysis of the US Supreme Court decision is that she does not consider that many (if not a majority) of individuals that have been held or being held at Guantanomo are not terrorists or combatants captured on a battlefield but are in fact innocent people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Take the case of Sami Al-Hajj, a journalist, who was finally released after 6 years in detention without access to the outside world, lawyers or family. In World War II, German soldiers picked up were in uniform and their detention was based on international law (the Geneva convention). The Bush Administration attempted to create its own law. I applaud the 5 Justices who saw through the shell game of the Bush Administration. In the Padilla case the Administration argued that anyone (including US citizens) could be named as "an unlawful Enemy combatant", be hauled away to Gitmo, and be detained indefinitely. This was not just an issue of foreigners being picked up outside the country. The Constitution is very clear as to when the right of Habeas Corpus can be rescinded in the US (insurrections, etc.). The question was whether or not Gitmo could be considered as under US control. This was decided by an earlier court decision. The 5 Justices correctly applied the US constitution to this case. As Americans we are supposed to be in a country where the rule of law is maintained. Apparently, Justice Scalia is willing to throw this law out if the situation may "increase the chances that our troops will" be harmed. This is not a constitutional argument but merely an emotional one. Given this new "Scalia law" we just might as well execute whomever the government names as enemy combatants right on the spot. Why both to give them a trial at all? Why not just trust the government when it tells us these are all dangerous terrorists at Gitmo? Tell that to the family of journalist Sami Al-Hajj.

Obama: Give Rights to Bin-Laden
WASHINGTON (Map, News) - Barack Obama's foreign policy advisers said Tuesday that Osama bin Laden, if captured, should be allowed to appeal his case to U.S. civilian courts, a privilege opposed by John McCain.

Responding to questions from The Examiner, Sen. John Kerry and former White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke said bin Laden would benefit from last week's Supreme Court decision giving terrorism suspects habeas corpus, the right to appeal their military detention to civilian courts.

“If he were to be brought back,” Clarke said of bin Laden, “the Supreme Court ruling holds on the right of habeas corpus.”

Kerry, who applauded the Supreme Court ruling, said it will be carried out by whichever candidate wins the presidency.


Obama: Give Rights to Bin-Laden
WASHINGTON (Map, News) - Barack Obama's foreign policy advisers said Tuesday that Osama bin Laden, if captured, should be allowed to appeal his case to U.S. civilian courts, a privilege opposed by John McCain.

Responding to questions from The Examiner, Sen. John Kerry and former White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke said bin Laden would benefit from last week's Supreme Court decision giving terrorism suspects habeas corpus, the right to appeal their military detention to civilian courts.

“If he were to be brought back,” Clarke said of bin Laden, “the Supreme Court ruling holds on the right of habeas corpus.”

Kerry, who applauded the Supreme Court ruling, said it will be carried out by whichever candidate wins the presidency.


What Caused This
The fact is that our military intelligence has proven over and over again that they can't tell the difference between an enemy combatant and an innocent bystander.

If there are innocent people being detained by our military, then they should be released. If there are terrorists being held by our military, then they should be held. Unfortunately, those appointed by the Bush administration to run this war can't tell the difference. A court must decide.
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