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Thursday, November 15, 2007
Janet M. LaRue :: Townhall.com Columnist
Supreme Court May Target Second Amendment
by Janet M. LaRue
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The press took umbrage at a court’s “broad” interpretation of the Constitution, which recognized an individual right to keep and bear arms and shot down D.C.’s gun ban as unconstitutional. Will the Supreme Court uphold the right of self-defense?

The U.S. Supreme Court hasn’t decided a Second Amendment case since United States v. Miller in 1939, and even then, it dodged the bullet. The Court didn’t decide whether the Amendment protects an individual or a collective right to keep and bear arms.

The Second Amendment states: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

The Court will lock and load on the Amendment if it grants review in two cases on its docket this term involving Washington, D.C.’s draconian gun laws.

In 1976, D.C. banned all handgun registrations, prohibited handguns already registered from being carried from room to room in the home without a license, and required all firearms in the home, including rifles and shotguns, to be unloaded and either disassembled or bound by a trigger lock. In effect, the District disarmed its citizenry.

Before the District banned handguns, the murder rate had been declining. Soon after the ban, the rate climbed to the highest of all large U.S. cities. Robert Levy, co-counsel for the six residents, writes in National Review: “During the 31-year life of the D.C. gun ban — with the exception of a few years during which the city’s murder rate ranked second or third — there have been more killings per capita in D.C. than in any other major city.”

As Levy correctly observes: “Proponents of gun control are not persuaded by such arguments, or even by empirical studies proving that gun control does not work. Nor are they persuaded by the text of the Second Amendment; the history, purpose, and structure of the Constitution; or the intent of the Framers.”

Unarmed law-abiding citizens vs. heavily armed criminals—guess who’s been winning. If D.C. City Council members regulated water the way they “regulate” gun ownership, residents could expect desert-dry water pipes and registration of garden hoses.

In 2006, six residents of the District challenged the laws, and lost. The federal district court granted the city’s motion to dismiss “on the grounds that the Second Amendment, at most, protects an individual’s right to “bear arms for service in the Militia.” The court conveniently ignored the word “keep” in the Second Amendment.) And, by “Militia,” the court concluded that the Second Amendment referred to an organized military body—such as a National Guard unit.

Last March, however, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit reversed the district court, ruling 2-1 that “the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms,” and striking down the gun laws as unconstitutional. Writing for the court, Judge Laurence H. Silberman held: “[T]he activities protected by the Amendment “are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual’s enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued or intermittent enrollment in the militia.” Silberman noted the reasonableness of the appellants’ claims:

Essentially, the appellants claim a right to possess what they describe as “functional firearms,” by which they mean ones that could be “readily accessible to be used effectively when necessary” for self-defense in the home.

The city council, led by Mayor Adrian Fenty, was outraged and immediately announced its intent to appeal to the Supreme Court. In addition to the anti-gun brigade, Fenty enjoyed the support of the editorial boards of two newspaper giants.

A Washington Post editorial called the ruling “radical” for giving “a new and dangerous meaning to the Second Amendment … an unconscionable campaign … to broadly reinterpret the Constitution so as to give individuals Second Amendment rights. The New York Times said the court was “interpreting the Second Amendment broadly.”

One reason the Supreme Court may grant review is because the circuit courts are divided on the meaning of the Amendment. Only the Fifth Circuit agrees with the D.C. Circuit that the Amendment is an “individual” right. The other circuits have held that private citizens in the states have no Second Amendment claim when they challenge state and local gun-control ordinances. The Supreme Court has yet to apply the Amendment uniformly to the states through the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment, as it has done with almost all of the Bill of Rights.

If the Supremes don’t grant review, the decision by the D.C. Circuit will stand, but it will be a hollow point victory except in the 10 square miles of the nation’s crime capital.

Let’s hope the Supremes affirm what Judge Silberman rightly recognized: “The wording of the operative clause also indicates that the right to keep and bear arms was not created by government, but rather preserved by it.” The right “pre-existed the Constitution like ‘the freedom of speech.’” It is, after all, “a natural right to keep and bear arms.”

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About The Author
Jan LaRue is Senior Legal Analyst with the American Civil Rights Union; former Chief Counsel at Concerned for Women; Legal Studies Director at Family Research Council; and Senior Counsel for the National Law Center for Children and Families. Be the first to read Janet LaRue's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.
We will win either way ---

If the court upholds the DC ruling, then we win. And if not, then it shifts the '08 election over to the conservatives.

We win...

Doesn't matter what they do...
Does anyone really believe that D.C. residents got rid of their guns just because a bunch of Liberals banned them? If the Supremes rule against handguns, what is the likelyhood that anyone will get rid of their handguns? It's too late. Ruling against handguns will only create a black market for them and further the comtempt that many of us have for government already. That's just what we need...another black market.

Also, I agree with Pirate...a Democrat may never be elected again if they rule in favor of D.C.

Can Judges Read?
It is very clearly written: The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Duh.

Guns
VA. Patriot:

But the problem is that the Bill of Rights only applied to the Federal government and once the courts began to apply the Bill of Rights to the states in 1025, it never did so with the 2nd.

The Parker case may change that. But the fear among the NRA is the court could rule the other way and state that individuals have no such right.




Patriot...
Judges apparently can't read. How else would you explain them reading "public benefit" instead of "public use"? Also, how would we explain McCain-Feingold?

orlandocajun
I can't explain quite of few rulings of late. The Kelo case and the judge suspending "no match" letters particularly frost me.

RIGHTS
Am I mistaken? Isn't the Bill of Rights the constitutional protection of individual rights?

Gun nuts are the funniest Americans
Please, carry on.

Bill of Rights only Federal . . .
I've never understood the argument that the Bill of Rights only applied to the Federal Government (before the jurisprudence of "Incorporation" from the Fourteenth).

The Constitution is ~very~ clear.

Article V describes the Amendment process and clearly states that properly ratified amendments are, for all intents and purposes, part of the Constitution.

Article VI, the second clause (re: "the Supremacy Clause") of the Constitution clearly states, "This Constitution... shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."


Pursuant to Article V, the Bill of Rights, as properly ratified amendments, are part of the Constitution. Thus, pursuant to Article VI, the Bill of Rights, as part of the Constitution, are binding upon the States.

Not Everyone Who Can Read is a Gun Nut
For the Second Amendment to be read as granting citizens a right to bear arms while serving in a state militia, one must be illiterate.

The Amendment grants no right; it states that the right shall not be infringed, without ever stating within the text of the amendment or elsewhere in the entire Constitution where that right comes from. As such, the only literate reading of the Second Amendment is that it guarantees a pre-existing right.

I can't wait to see the Left's response when uber-liberal DC brings the whole thing crashing down because it wouldn't back down.

Soothsayer, is funnier still
soothsayer writes:

Gun nuts are the funniest Americans
Please, carry on.

The Bill of Rights limits the federal and state powers. It does not grant any right and clearly defines rights as varied and many.

In fact, the Bill of Rights, and subsequent amendments to the Constituion, trump many powers given to the federal and state governments.

The Second Amendment does indeed enumerate and protect an already existing right of an individual. Just as the 9th amendment protects other rights of the people not enumerated.

In fact all amendments using the phrase the right of the people have already been interpreted to apply to the individual.

Soothsayer, for your edification, please read the following links. Hopefully you will become more enlightened and credible true seeker, than a soothsayer.

A soothsayer is a person who claims to speak sooth: specifically one who predicts the future based upon personal, political, spiritual, or religious beliefs rather than scientific facts.


http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/rightsof/

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/funddocs/billeng. htm

2ND AMENDMENT
of the ten amendments to the constitution the 2nd is the most important since it guarantees the other nine,an armed citizenry is the only thing that protects us from an unjust government

I am worried about you, soothsayer
You seem to have become bitter and hateful, and you only post a snarky one-liner and run. That is not how you used to be. I hope you are alright, but as it appears, something is amiss in your world.

DC Circuit Ct. likely to he upheld
So, far the Roberts court has followed reasonable jurisprudence.

The question is if Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts go for the the Circuit ruling, who is the 5th or 6th or more?

Democrats and Dictators...

Dictators fear "the people"...

Democrats fear "the people"...

One and the same.

Libs,
Learn how to read - with comprehension. Your interpretation of simple reading is absoulutely idiotic. Who can take any of you seriously?

Try this example
An educated populace being necessary for the smooth functioning of society, the right of the people to keep and own books shall not be infringed.

Does this mean that the uneducated can't own books? Seems pretty straightforward to me. The militia argument just doesn't hold up to the plain meaning of the words in the constitution.

Thanks Dottie
You are my kind of woman, and I appreciate your concern.

Please rest assured that I only come here for entertainment and amusement, and my visits leave me laughing - not bitter and angry. :)

Gun nuts have it wrong
There was never any intention for individuals to have private possession of firearms. Virtually every one of the founding fathers recognized that an armed citizenry cannot be controlled, so they set forth the second amendment to stipulate that only the government had the right to arm a citizen.

If citizens can rebel, there can be no enforcement of the law. Our politicians need to be able to control the populace and crush dissenters, for that is their role as our rulers. If we have the ability to reject the edicts of our rulers, then people will be able to violently object every time they disagree with the actions taken by the government.

Government is put into place with the idea that the citizens are to obey the demands made by their rulers. If people are allowed to be armed, then our rulers have no means of ensuring that we will do as they say; this would lead to anarchy.

The safest populace is an unarmed populace. That is why there were so few murders in the Soviet Unit, and limited crime in North Korea, Cuba, and Vietnam. Americans would be best served by following such examples.

If the 2nd...
...wasn't meant to recognize an individual right, then it was the best kept secret of the 18th, 19th, and most of the 20th Centuries.

Maybe the folks who ratified the Constitution just had better things to do rather than explain to everybody why they needed to bring their firearms to a government vault so the government could issue them back if the need arose?

Funny how they never got around to explaining to us that they intended it as a collective right. Went right to their graves without ever even talking about it or wondering why people still had rifles and pistols in their homes.

You'd think they'd be curious about how so many Americans didn't understand they weren't supposed to individually own guns.

Nope. It took liberal statists to finally enlighten us about what the Founders REALLY meant all those years, but never got around to explaining.

DAYUM, Wobbie got something right
RockyJones writes: Thursday, November, 15, 2007 7:23 PM
It is entertaining...

The 2nd says what it says...the 14th does as well.

Robert





For a change.
QUICK, somebody call the Guiness Book people so they can record this.
If it's not thoroughly documented, no one will ever believe it.

It's already been said... but...
We need to realize that this is the most important issue in this nation for the reason that someone mentioned above: The other rights are all guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment. It is lunacy to suggest that this is the one amendment in the Bill of Rights that doesn't count for individuals. The fact that they placed it second behind Freedom of Speech and Religion (both of which have been twisted to ban crosses but allow simulated child pornography) shows the importance the Founding Fathers placed on it. However, since they were just a bunch of slave-owning white men I suppose it doesn't matter what they thought.
Regardless, remember that this is one of those issues we need to inform our friends, family and neighbors about. Otherwise, with the decline of hunting and the firearm sports in the US, this right will eventually be lost eventually anyway, which is probably what the gun control lobby is counting on.

The right of self-defense…

“Proponents of gun control are not persuaded by such arguments, or even by empirical studies proving that gun control does not work. Nor are they persuaded by the text of the Second Amendment; the history, purpose, and structure of the Constitution; or the intent of the Framers.”


This statement says it all.

If we consider the Bill of Rights as representative of the thinking of the original Americans, then what does it say of these folks who oppose aspects of the Bill of Rights? They also reveal their anti-American opposition to the rule of law. They don’t care what the early Americans considered as the foundations of liberty cherished by free men. Thinking they know better is their business, but using the courts to attempt to disarm the rest of us creates a potential crisis. Americans will never give up their right to self-defense.

Self-defense derives from the commandment not to murder; that is, we seek to preserve life against those who threaten it, especially our own life and those under our authority. Abortion allows the shedding of innocent blood by those who forsake this responsibility. Now they would prevent the rest of us by making illegal the means of our own defense.

The moral relativists are at home with abortion on demand, prohibition of capital punishment and confiscation of arms from law-abiding citizens. They expose themselves as anti-American by advocating the overthrow of the most basic purpose of government declared in the Declaration of Independence-- to secure the God given right to life of the citizens under its authority.

loyal democrat
"If citizens can rebel, there can be no enforcement of the law. Our politicians need to be able to control the populace and crush dissenters, for that is their role as our rulers. If we have the ability to reject the edicts of our rulers, then people will be able to violently object every time they disagree with the actions taken by the government."

Sounds like you think the gov should be a dictatorship! BTW people have had guns in this country FOREVER! Are you insane? Every household, farmer, etc. had guns.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,...

Ever heard of the American Revolution? I guess you where against it?

Try looking at the real facts. More guns means less crime. Criminals will always have guns. They are inhibited when law abiding citizens have guns. That is the REAL truth.

Anna, you have just met
Our resident SATIRIST, Loyal Democrat.

His comment was strictly satire. He does it in much the same way as Rush Limbaugh does by using absurdity to illustrate absurdity.

But don't feel bad, we've all been taken in by his posts when we were new here and took him seriously.

If disarming the citizenry works
there should be no need to arm police officers, should there? I mean, if it really works, why do agents of the gubmint need to remain armed?

Seems to me the advocates of disarmament should also consider that if only the government and its agents are armed, then effectively they are advocating being at the mercy and whim of...gasp...George W Bush and his administration!

But then, libs never think things through very well. If you really want to stump one, just follow up one of their bright ideas with the question, "And then what will happen?" and watch the blank look come over them.

George Washington
Was a gun nut.

The Frontiersman

of North Carolina who fought to open up the road west all the way to California will never be forgotten and their sacrifices will not be brushed to the roadside to allow the traitors presently in office to take our guns but by the sacrifice of their own blood in a fight they will for sure lose.

Serious question
I know how to persuade my senator or representative on certain issues. But how does one persuade a Supreme Court justice? Are we just at their mercy? What happens if they decide not only that the DC law should stand, but that the Second Amendment stands only for military and police? Do I keep my two guns? I certainly would, running the risk of getting arrested by shooting at targets in the woods.

"Gun nuts are the funniest Americans"
but infringe on your pathetic act of freedom of speech, you cry "Bush-habeus corpus-Patriot Act"... how typical of a sad, little loser to post only to cause an uproar (not working) while decrying the "neocon". The a-pity-me of the left, which you claim does not exist, is to embrace a right YOU hold dear while denying others theirs. Gun nuts, indeed! You are the same type who hates the police until you NEED them, probably because you don't own or even know how to handle a gun; they frighten you. Rights are something you use without embracing.

The second amendment has been
looked at by experts in the realm of English who have declared it to be an "individual right" and who have stated that the first phrase describing the militia only describe the reason for the last part of the right. Basically what this boils down to is that you could drop off the first phrase describing the militia all together.

The Miller ruling was a very bad ruling for a lot of reasons. First off it was contrary to the actual second amendment which says the right may NOT be abridged. The ruling said that "since sawed-off shotguns were not used by the military, then there was no right to own one.". Now it doesn't take a genius to see what is wrong with that statement. The rest of the law that was being ruled on dealt with machine guns which, in fact, were used by the military. In addition, sawed-off shotguns were used by the military.

For the people who argue that the 2nd amendment has not been incorporated this also is not logical. The incorporation theory either applies to ALL of the bill of rights or it does not apply to any. The incorporation theory depends on the definition of "freedom" as used in the 14th. Personally, I could go for either ruling. Get rid of incorporation or apply it to all.

One other aspect that the anti-gun crown is forgetting is the basis for the federal gun control laws to begin with. Yes, that old bug-a-boo; INTERSTATE COMMERCE. There is really nothing in the Constitution that gives the feds authority to regulate guns in the first place.

And finally, the fact that the Supremes have not as yet granted certiorari for this case gives me cause to worry as to the outcome.

A Trap for the Democrats
Tha Leftnuts had no choice in this matter. Once the Court of Appeals overturned the ban in it's correct interpretation of the 2nd they were scr*wed. If they didn't appeal the ruling it means they knew the ban was wrong to begin. Also were honest people again able to defend themselves and the crime rate declined it would effectively illustrate what defenders of the 2nd have been saying all along. The risk of a snowball effect was too great. Proving freedom works is a stake in the heart for Libs.

So they have to appeal. They are still scr*wed. It does not matter which way SCOTUS goes on this the Leftnuts are going to be shellaced. If the court affirms the ruling then a huge number of gun laws will be wiped away and people all over the country will regain the right to self defense. When the crime rate drops the Democrats look like idiots.

If the court rules the 2nd is not an individual right the backlash from freedom loving individuals will be incredible. If the Leftnuts want to fire up the conservative base and move a lot of moderates and Democrats into the Republican camp then ruling that the right to self defense does not exist is the perfect move.

I would much rather see the court come down on the side of freedom but if it doesn't it is not all. The potential for long term damage to the Leftnuts is much greater. Thank God for the D.C. Court of Appeals and Judge Silberman in particular.

Constitution as I see it
I thought the constitution laid out what body had the power over certain topics. It distinctly lays out the powers of the Federal government (and which bodies within: legislative, executive, judicial), the States, and the People.

The tenth amendment states "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people".

Everybody misses the key portion of the second amendment "... the right OF THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. I believe this to include that the right to keep and bear arms was prohibited from both the Federal and the State governments by this reading.

I would think that the first amendment is more precariously ruled upon and broadly defined than the second amendment. Note that the first amendment states "Congress shall make no law...". As I read that, the first amendment only technically protects us from the legislative branch of the federal government.

Loyal Democrat
The master of the reductio ad absurdem argument.

The fact that his satires sound almost exactly like statements made by the "progressive elitists" in utter seriousness simply shows how unserious- and in fact delusional- those self-anointed "superior ones" really are.

Loyal Democrat is also the reason I am always entirely serious in my posts. My skills at satire aren't nearly up to his level.

cheers

eon

Next thing

90 day waiting period on publishing paper,

90 day waiting period on search warrants

you get the idea

Re Hunting Penned Birds
Point of information, please, from hunters. I have had no direct experience with hunting since my uncle used to hunt when I was a child, and that was a while ago. I am not being snotty here but am asking for current thinking by current hunters. Just now I read an article on a left-wing website that describes the gun club where Cheney went hunting last month, the Clove Valley Rod & Gun Club near Poughkeepsie NY. It claims that game birds there are raised there in overcrowded pens (the same way chickens and pigs for market are now raised) resulting in birds that are unable to forage and barely able to walk or fly and that have to be kick-started into flight so that hunters (who pay huge $$ for the privilege) can shoot them. The point of the article is that this kind of hunting is not sporting. I have no way of knowing whether this is true or this is a left-wing crack at Cheney. What's the story on hunting penned birds? They don't sound much like wild birds. Thanks.

Up is down, right is left......
It never ceases to amaze me.............The same people that can "find" a supposed "right" to abortion as a "privacy matter" in the U. S. Constitution (which takes a lot of creativity, twisting, turning, and "interpreting"), can't simply read the words written in the 2nd Amendment and accept what is written. It doesn't take "interpretation", extrapolation, or any other fancy manipulation to read and understand that the 2nd Amendment guarantees an already recognized and existing RIGHT to self defense and the owning of firearms by citizens. It takes leaps, bounds, backflips and all kinds of contortions to "FIND" a RIGHT to murder an unborn child as a "privacy" matter (or any other matter) in the Constitution, but they can't read the plain words that guarantee an existing and well recognized right!

So basically, the point is, the Constitution says whatever the libs want it to, whenever they want it to (subject to change at THEIR whim), and they're going to keep going, keep jumping up and down, screaming, crying, pounding their feet, whatever it takes, until they get their way!

My children tried this approach.......a few times. That approach didn't work very well for them after about age 3. Part discipline and part reasonable common sense on their part. Sad part is, libs never grow up, they just grow louder!

God help us!

The inconvenient Amendment
and inconvenient, multiple, correspondences regarding the meaning and intents of the framers, regarding that amendment. All of which support the individual rights position. All of which is ignored by the left and some on the right.

You can be certain if any of it supported their position, in any way, it wouldn't be ignored.

Their problem is that they have an unsupportable position which is based upon lies and still want to accomplish their goal of destroying the Constitution and Bill of Rights, one provision at a time. Our problem is that their "friends" in the courts, bureaucracy, politics and the media, go along with the lies.

When government decides to ignore the rights of it's people in favor of the interest of government and it's courts cannot be trusted to continue to guarantee those rights, all of them, they walk a line which is so very dangerous they dare not mis-step.

Because someone in a black robe declares that a codified right, that has existed for hundreds of years no longer exists, doesn't mean that it no longer exists. It simply means that that person, in the black robe, chooses to lie about the issue and ignore their, oaths of service, responsibilities, and duties to the law, Constitution, history, heritage, country and people.

These persons are frequently called traitors. The term is accurate. Traitors never go unnoticed, no matter how delusional they themselves become. Those who are not traitors have very long memories and tend to be less than forgiving of treason than others. In other words, the "oops, I misunderstood the issue and was acting in the best interests of the country, I just made a mistake" defense, won't work.

There is a real danger here and we will shortly see if the court realizes it. I bet it does. Whether it will do it's job?

Aqualad
Your senator is your elected representative. He is supposed to be responsive to your demands. A Supreme Court Justice is supposed to know the law very well and make judgments based on the law---he/she is not supposed to be influenced by public opinion or political considerations.

I bet I just made myself a target!!
In rereading my previous post, I realize I have committed at least THREE CARDINAL SINS (according to the left), all in one post!

1) I defended the 2nd Amendment and an individual's right to own firearms.

2) I showed my opposition to one of the most sacred of fallacies of the left; abortion.

3) Then, WORST OF ALL, I ended my post with a request that GOD help us......

I must truly be a gun-totin, God fearing, child loving Redneck!

Yup! SHORE AM! I'm also a college educated former U.S. Marine, former police officer, father, husband, and a voter. In other words, nothing better or worse, just your run of the mill AVERAGE American.......AND EXTREMELY PROUD TO BE JUST AN AVERAGE AMERICAN.

Oops! There goes another one! I'm also patriotic and PROUD to be an American! I can feel the liberal wordsmiths gearing up for WAR (or words, of course), against me!


Only an individual...
...may keep and bear arms.

If those arms are not in his or her possession, in their home, they cannot be said by any logical person to be "keeping" them.

No more than we would really have the freedom of the press if all our printing presses were locked in vaults and the government granted us access to those vaults if and when IT decided we needed to exercise freedom of the press.

This is about freedom
This is not about firearms; this is about our freedom as sovereign citizens. For far too long we have allowed our elected servants to dictate to us what they deem as good for us, as if we don’t have enough intelligence to know what is best for ourselves. We have watched, as they have assaulted the entire Bill Of Rights, bastardized the Constitution and shown a total disregard for individual liberty. They are driven by power and seek to control every aspect of our lives, and yet we sit and watch as they continue to pervert everything our Founders fought for. Now we have come to a point where we are supposed to trust Nine Talking Heads in Black Robes, appointed by the same elected whores that wish to disarm us, to rule in favor of the Constitution. Jefferson warned of allowing the courts to be the final authority on constitutional issues:

"To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy.....”.

We have judges legislating from the bench, illegal executive orders and public servants who no longer serve the people. Wake up America, the clock is ticking, and the alarm is ringing loudly in your ears. The heavy boot of gov. is on our throats, strangling our freedoms and choking the life from us. We are ordered, under color of law and force of arms, to abide by restrictions on our rights or be imprisoned or killed. We are being held captive by the standing army (the militarization of the police) the Founders warned us of, in the guise of “public safety”.

cont;

This is about freedom
No one has any authority to arbitrarily decide that the words written, neither in the 2nd amendment nor in any of our rights, have somehow, mysteriously changed their meaning. The meaning of written words does not change, what they meant when they were written, they mean now. When we allow that our rights are up for “interpretation” by the same gov we placed restrictions upon, have we not already forfeited those very rights? It would be folly indeed if we allow that our rights are subject to the whims of our public servants. To do so is to relinquish our authority over them, wherein they become the masters and we become slaves. Either we are a free sovereign people, with all the rights given us by our Creator, or we are slaves beholden to a master who will have no mercy on us. Our chains are being forged and they will not rest lightly on us, indeed they will weigh heavy upon us and our children. The wolves are circling the flock looking to make the final kill and soon we may all have to make a decision; to grovel and lick the boots of our servants, or have the resolve to fight and retain our rightful place as their masters.

Molon Labe!!

lilly
the story you read is most likely a left wing exaberation. There would be no challenge in it.

Remember this is the same Chaney that got ripped for hitting a fellow hunter during a hunt in Texas. Those birds are quick and evasive. The hunts in south Texas are on large areas of land, and in earlier times people would fly their Citations and Kingairs down there to hunt. Any who who could afford that kind of transportation would not settle for a scrawby, hand fed bird.

Duplicitous "interpretation"
Here's the real lie in the anti-gunners argument:

They claim the 2nd applies only to organized state militias like the National Guard. But does the National Guardsman store his weapon at home?

Nope. It's in an armory. So how is he, then, able to "keep" his weapon?

FURTHER:

Title 10 USC, sec 311

Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.



As you can clearly see, by law just about any and all law-abiding legal residents are, in fact, members of either the organized or unorganized militia.

Kathleen Parker
just had a fantastic line in her TH article Dying to Date. Here is the quote: "When the scientific facts contradict what is being promoted as truth, then ideology has trumped reality." This has got to be the best definition of liberalism that I have ever read, and it applies most appropriately here.

All anyone has to do to understand the Second Amendment is to read the old poem Paul Revere's Ride. Liberal's argument that the Second Amendment only gives the right to keep and bear arms to a militia is absurd. "The People" WERE the militia. They could never have organized to fight the British had they not had access to guns. This is the whole reason they gave us the Second Amendment because of the lesson they learned. When they stated “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” they were actually making reference to their own history. And the people of that day knew full well what they were talking about.

Since when does a government have to create a Bill of Rights giving their own military the right to keep and bear arms? That is so absurd it’s laughable. That is like granting a special law giving congress the right to make laws, or giving the police the right to arrest criminals. The Bill of Rights was created for the people. It was not about the rights of government.

Warning! Do not mess with BrianR!
I'm bettin' that he's absolutely correct on the gun issue... (I'm bettin' because it's a sure thing!)

You can argue with him, but it's at your own peril, 'cause you'll lose!

Go BrianR!







Odd
Not a lot of gun control types around here.

No emotional arguments that guns kill people and are thus simply evil and must be done away with.

You know, posts with a lot of words CAPITALIZED and sentences that end with a lot of exclaimation points!!!!!

Used to get a lot of that sort of thing in the past. Now? Zip.

Guess they lost the stomach for this kind of thing in 1994, except for a few diehards in safe districts.

Sneaky, Robert.

"The words state clearly that there is an individual right to bear arms. That all people...."


Now wait just a minute! You began the paragraph baited with clarity and then inserted your barbed hook into the meat. To conclude the quote:...

"THAT ALL PEOPLE UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THE REPUBLIC WHO ARE BORN HERE ARE CITIZENS AND THAT INCLUDES THE KIDS OF ILLEGALS."

This is why it is so difficult to trust you lefty's with any office above dog catcher. You inserted your own meaning into the 14th Amendment, regardless of "what it says". You people on the Left tend to make up the rules as they suit you.

"Jurisdiction" is the word that the 14th. Amendment hinges about. Jurisdiction has different meanings in different contexts. So, according to your interpretation of the 14th., the context of jurisdiction depends upon where you are at birth, and not from the nationality of your parents. If so, would it follow that if the government of Mexico demanded that all "Mexicans" return to Mexican soil, those born of two illegal aliens could refuse? If so, would Mexico challenge this interpretation of the 14th. Amendment? Would you reverse "jurisdiction" if the US government prevented those born of illegal alien parents from joining their natural parents in Mexico?

You play to fast and too lose with the Constitution for this Republic's own good.
And yours.




Another approach......
The Second Amendment states: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

If we are to interpret "the people" as only those in some form of government service than wouldn't "the people" need to be interpreted the same throughout the entire document in order for it to be consistent? This would of course mean that all the protected rights in the constitution would apply to only those in government service.

Surely any reasonable person can see how absurd this is.

LOL, Anne
Who? Little ole moi?


Exactly, Mahatma-mama
The "People" are also mentioned in the 1st, 4th, 9th and 10th Amendments, and in no way is the usage of the term ever interpreted to mean anything other than the equivalent of the word "citizens" each possessing an individual, not collective, right.

In the 10th Amendment, powers are reserved to the "states" and to the "people". If the "state" and the "people" are the same thing, did the Founders suffer a lapse of grammatic precision and write a redundant sentence? No. They are clearly two separate and distinct entities.


Well Done, BrianR!
"They claim the 2nd applies only to organized state militias like the National Guard. But does the National Guardsman store his weapon at home?

Nope. It's in an armory. So how is he, then, able to "keep" his weapon?"

Part of a "militia's definition of duty would require that an arm be readily at hand. Thus the inclusion of the word "keep".

And what if you can't join the Guard?
Because work and family committments take up too much time?

What if you have flat feet? High blood pressure?

Diabetes?

A bunch of stuff can keep you out of the National Guard.

Are we now to argue the Department of Defense's medical standards for enlistment are now a violation of the 2nd Amendment?

What follows? Wheelchair accessible Bradley fighting vehicles?

MILITIA - WHO CARES?
It really makes no difference who comprised the militia. The first part of the sentence ONLY PROVIDES a reason for the last part. If they put a reason in front of the 1st amendment such as "a free press is necessary to rat out Clinton lies" would that obviate the need for a free press when Clinton was not in office?

BrianR,

I see you have come in this morning. The latest word is that they will review the case on the 20th to determine if they will grant certiorari. This dragging of the heals worries me as it indicates there are more than just the 2 radical communists on the court who are opposed.

read this, or great harm will befall you
One of the very few positive decisions of the Bush administration was in the selection of Roberts and Alito to the Court.

I don't believe there is any real doubt what the Founders meant. They meant the people had a right, as individuals, to bear arms, not as part of some organization or militia.

There was no collective right to free speech. One did not have to be a member of an organization or militia in order to exercise one's right to free speech. It was and is an individual right.

So too with the right to bear arms.

Radical social theorists desiring to advance an agenda are using jurists who have similar ideologies to compel compliance thru the courts with what they deem to be correct social policy.

If the USSC did outlaw private ownership of handguns, I think there would be massive civil disobedience among the American population, in comparison to which civil rights demonstrations of the 1960s could not even hold a candle.

I believe it would greatly unravel the social fabric that holds our nation together.

That being said, I do favor some sort of background check on any person who purchases or otherwise acquires a weapon, but realistically there is as much chance of enforcing that as there is in all muslims suddenly denouncing the Prophet Mohammad.

Hi, Vic.... no worries, mate!
Thomas has been begging for a clear case on the issue; this is raw meat for Scalia. I suspect Roberts sees an opportunity to make a name for the "Roberts Court". I think it only takes 3 to grant cert.

Add Alito, and you've got 4.

Man, I can hardly wait!

Gun nuts have it wrong
You are wrong Democrat.
The reason crime may be lower in some of those nations is because they execute criminals there and not reward them like they do here.

One question my good man. If let's say for the moment you did have a firearm. You come home some day and find somebody is beating and attemting to rape your wife or daughter. Would you wait until he cuts her throat with a razor before you blow his brains out?

The 2nd Amdt was put there for several reasons and forget the armed militia crap. It's not put there either to allow you to shoot at tin cans and hunt ducks.

The reasons:
To protect ourselves from tyranny by governments from within and without,

To provide for self defense of your life, property and well being. Those right are guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

No one, I repeat NO ONE, has the right, be it civil or constitutional to be a victem.

Akagi
Chinese executions:

China does not publish statistics about the death penalty saying these are a state secret.
Executions are often carried out immediately after a public sentencing rally and the criminal's family is made to pay for the bullet.
The prisoner's arms are shackled behind them and they are made to kneel down before receiving a single bullet fired at close range into the back of the head or neck by a soldier or policeman or by a bullet fired into the heart from behind using an automatic rifle. (Click here for photo)

http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/shooting.html

Founding Fathers Meaning
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:45

Sounds pretty straight foward what they wanted when they wrote the 2nd amendment to me. They wanted to insure that people always had a way to refute the gov when needed. It is the only true way to have a democracy.

"We have come to a place where we have full gun registration; our streets will be safer our police more effective the world will follow in our lead." Adolf Hitler circa 1936

LOL, Vic
The Chinese save a lot of money on their judiciary.

No Appelate Division!

Very efficient.

Lilly and "Penned Bird Hunting".
"Hunt Club" hunting is to regular hunting what "Country Club" golf is to original rural Scottish golf. But first, does your displeasure with the hunt club go to the treatment of the penned birds or to your prejudice against hunting? And you are "prejudiced", Lilly, because you say: "I have had no direct experience with hunting...", and yet your posts are decidedly and provocatively anti-hunting. But, I digress.

Yes Lilly, these hunt clubs do exist and I used to take my late father to them for his hunting enjoyment when he was no longer well enough to take to the field. He was, thereby, able to hunt nearly until his death. Furthermore, men with a heart condition (like Cheney)--or important positions--may not be able to venture far afield or take two weeks from work to hunt.

Is this "cheating the hunting gods"? Depends. I've also seen the disabled at these hunt clubs. And women. They seem to enjoy themselves. As for me, I prefer the field, but you anti-hunting compulsives have passed so much vindictive hunting legislation and restrictions that I have to travel further for a purely wild experience. Open up the wild to more hunting and these hunt clubs that vicariously disturb you will decline.

I often wonder if modern golfers would be willing to do without their restaurants, "19th. Holes" and the various amenities of modern, state supported, socialized golf and return it to its pure Scottish roots and the rough conditions in which the game began. Some say real golf can only be played in Scotland. Should we therefore ban golf, because the chicken sandwich served in the country club restaurant is made from "Tyson Farms Chickens" raised in a cramped pen somewhere in Arkansas?

FYI, Akagi, Mr. Legal Luminary
Re the prohibition of the possession of guns by illegal aliens, it's not a state issue; it's a federal ban.

To wit:

"On October 21, 1998, Public Law 105-277 (112 Stat. 2681), Omnibus
Consolidated and Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act, 1999
(hereafter, ``the Act''), was enacted. The Act amended the Gun Control
Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended (18 U.S.C. Chapter 44). One of the new
statutory provisions prohibits, with certain exceptions, the transfer
to and possession of firearms and ammunition by aliens in the United
States in a nonimmigrant classification."



Sorry, bud. Wrong again. As usual.


I See My Post Has Been Removed
What's the matter? Is a simple post of truthful information too much for you? The left always silences debate because the truth is of course, the enemy.

Well....
That post to Akagi was actually meant for -- and afterward correctly posted at -- another thread, over on the Gallagher column.


But I think it's also fitting here, too.


OOOPs
I mis-posted and retract my statement regarding removal of my post. I somehow missed it and made an incorrect assumption.

I will have to do a better job in the future and apologize for the accusation. I am gratified that it is not true.

Able bodied
Citizen Carrier misses the entire point of able bodied.

If you are afllicted with any dibilitating disease you are in fact, not able bodied. This does not mean you are disabled though depending on the disease you may be disabled.

Does this mean that during the Revolutionary War the weak and infirm did not fight? Nope. Standards for the Continental Army were not very high back then, requiring one good eye, two teeth that were opposed, be able to walk unassisted and one good arm. A visit to historic Williamsburg can provide more detail on the requirements for the Continental Army.

The DoD's requirements for service are not a violation, you simply become a member of the unorganized militia.

Can someone explain
WHy some people think it is right to control guns but not right to control votes.
Is it not the chant of the left that Bush has murdered 10's of thousands of people? The the arguemnt stands that we shoud interpet the constitution consistantly and regulate votes as well.
Abortion for all guns for none? Because abortion has it a very clear amendment protecting it.
How dumb can these idiots be.

The_Shadow
I think you misinterpreted my meaning.

I was illustrating the fallacy of the Left's "They meant the National Guard, not individual citizens" argument concerning the 2nd Amendment by pointing out that if that were true, it would be the only liberty recognized by the Bill of Rights denied to people with flat feet or diabetes.

For they would not be able to join the National Guard in order to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights as liberals envision it.

Penned bird hunting
Let see, if Bill Clinton were a hunter, would that question have even been asked? Or did it just look like a way to diss VP Cheney? Quite a reach, I must say.

Different yardsticks
I notice that First Amendment rights to free speech and press have been interpreted with the most liberal, permissive yardstick imaginable, even to the point that a nude go-go dancer can flaunt her pudenda with impunity, and organizations that advocate criminal activity can publish "how to" books for the most revolting crimes. So, why does the Second have to be interpreted with the most restrictive yardstick?

Would the Second Amendment be necessary if it meant "collectively"? Even your most oppressive government in the world allows its militia members to "keep and bear arms collectively".

Sedonaman, as the saying goes,
if libs interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the First, they'd be screaming for mandatory gun ownership.


The 2nd Should be Overturned
Relying on ones self is a tremendous burden. It is better to believe you can rely on the government to protect you. You will sleep better believing that you don't have to worry about your own safety and security. If you believe the government is only concerned with what is best for you and they don't think you should have a gun then why would you want one? I believe the government knows best. I also believe in the Tooth Fairy.

LOL, TruLib!
I'm still waiting for the Easter Bunny.

He must be running real late. LA traffic, I guess.......


The First and the Second


My Uncle was the the Superintendent of Schools for one of the largest cities in the US.

We discussed a news article about owning a gun. Virgil said, “The constitution guarantees the right to own a gun.” I said, “Uncle Virgil, get your copy of the Constitution and read the 2nd Ad, as if you are a English Professor, rather than a gun owner.”

He read it and had the most unbelievable look on his face, and said, “I never read it that way before.”

We have been victims of a conspiracy by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and the National Rifle Association (NRA). They agree that, “If the ACLU is not required to correctly read the 1st Ad, the NRA won't be required to read the 2nd Ad correctly, either.”

The ACLU says the 1st Ad requires the “separation of church and state.” In their interpretation, “… no religious meetings or Christmas decorations in any public place, no exceptions.” The NRA says the 2nd Ad, “… permits anyone to own any number of guns and any amount of ammunition, no restrictions.”

A language consists of words and punctuation. A sentence expresses a complete thought, a phrase by itself does not. A period means the thought is complete, a comma means it is not yet complete. The Framers of the Constitution knew that, even if the ACLU and the NRA do not.

There is a comma following the word religion, not a period! The words “respecting an establishment of religion” mean “concerning an establishment of religion.” And “to establish” means “to set up; to bring about.” Congress must not “establish” a religion, but if a holiday display or the use of a building by a religious group is desired, it must not be needlessly prohibited.

Those are commas after the words Militia, State, and Arms, not periods! You cannot ignore the first two phrases, and read only the last two. If only the last two phrases are to be read and enforced, why did the Constitutional Framers bother to write the first two?

So get your copy and read.

Uh, no, Jim. YOU read
A good place to start would be my 11:18AM post of this morning, right up the thread. Follow that by reading my 11:44AM post.


Man! Don't these people read anything that's already been written before partaking in their own regurgitation of the same old debunked arguments?

Rhetorical question, because the answer's self-evident.


PS, Jim
You can *wow* your Uncle the School Superintendant with this little tidbit, too.

States have "powers"; the People have "rights". States don't have "rights".


Man! What district does he "superintend". Someone needs to warn the parents who live and pay taxes there.



I don't care what you think
BrianR writes: Friday, November, 16, 2007 7:56 PM
========
I only care what the Constitution says.

Your only point is that you, and maybe a few others, don't agree with me.

You don't know as much about the English language as the Founders did.

Okay, Jimbo
Here's the link to the National Archives copy of the Constitution and Bill of Rights:

http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charte rs/constitution.html

You "only care what the Constitution says"? There it is, bubba.

Further, you're going to ignore all the contemporary writings of the Founders themselves, including the Federalist Papers, in which they are clear and specific that they meant exactly what they wrote, that their firm intent was that every person has the clear right to be armed? Great! You've just made a perfect fool of yourself!

Now, of that "(me) and a few others" who think this way, I guess you have to include in that insignificant number the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in the "Emerson" case, and the DC Court of Appeals in "Parker". But, oh well, what the hell do THEY know? They're only the Federal Appellate Courts. Oh, yeah, I should also mention the US Supreme Court in "Miller".

Yep, legal dolts all, who should bow to the wisdom of Uncle School Superintendant and his commas.

A couple other of us lamebrains for you to consider. Here's a link:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/10/a-liberals-lame.html

to an article written by a self-professed liberal law school professor at George Washington University on the topic.

And oh yeah! Here's a link to an interesting on-topic article written by Sanford Levinson, Prof Law at U Tex, another self-professed liberal:

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/embar.html

But, hey, let's just send them all emails and tell them Uncle Superintendant thinks they're all wet, because of his miraculous discovery of the commas.

Man, this is a good time for you to shut up, before you embarrass yourself further.


Brutal!
The idea that somebody would somehow forget their lessons in English grammar until one particular time when their nephew urges them to apply it to a reading just ONCE in their many years sounds like the kind of story a politician tells on the stump.

Jim, the signers and ratifiers of the Bill of Rights did not just sign that thing and immediately take cyanide.

They lived on for years and years and years after they ratified it.

And why they lived on and on, individual Americans...INCLUDING all those guys who ratified The Bill of Rights...continued to individually own firearms, rather than store them at some centrally located vault under lock and key.

Perhaps you and your uncle should consider the implications of that fact?

The Schools Failed You

“A language consists of words and punctuation. A sentence expresses a complete thought, a phrase by itself does not. A period means the thought is complete, a comma means it is not yet complete. The Framers of the Constitution knew that, even if the ACLU and the NRA do not.” … Jim

A comma can separate rights in a sentence too when “several” are listed. Maybe you should have received a private education instead of the obviously shallow one you received in your Uncle’s district.

JIM BOB


The actor who played Jim Bob on "The Waltons" was smarter than you.

Jim
To add to your list of mistakes lets also include your reference to the NRA's support for gun and ammo ownership by anyone with no restrictions. The NRA has actually supported a number of gun laws aimed at restricting ownership of firearms by the criminal element within our society.

Jim Bob

How come in the first amendment, rights can be separated with commas and people acknowledge these separate rights, but for some reason the second has to have only “one” meaning and the commas play no part?

Amendment one:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress.

Amendment two:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Oh, yeah, TruLib
I didn't even want to bother with that grotesquely ignorant statement. No one believes in unbridled license, which is quite a different thing from exercising one's rights.

I don't claim the "right" to own a nuke. I think a valid dividing line is the difference between a "man-served" and "crew-served" weapon, and is absolutely in line with the original intent of the Second A.

Further, there are all kinds of restrictions on rights. On Free Sppech, think of libel, slander, "fire in a crowded theater", sedition, conspiracy, etcetera, ad nauseum. ALL restrict forms of speech.

Religion: Try to throw a human sacrifice into a volcano and see what happens.

I mean, how ridiculous can these linuts get?


Again!
"LiBnuts" not "limnuts"!

Man, that's frustrating. I write some real clever post (at least in my mind) and screw up the delivery with a typo!

Okay! I need a secretary!

Any really good-looking babes interested? Angelina available?


BrianR
I think Leftnuts is appropriate.

This question never
Came up in America....until the communist supported ACLU organized.
Only came to be questioned by Marxists among us

CONGRESSIONAL RECORD:
PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES OF THE 87TH CONGRESS, FIRST SESSION


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Truth About The American Civil Liberties Union
Extension of Remarks of Hon. John H. Rousselot of California In The House Of Representatives Wednesday, September 20, 1961

Mr ROUSSELOT: Mr. Speaker, many people have becomed very concerned about the connections of certain persons involved in the affairs of the American Civil Liberties Union with Communist front groups. They are asking the question: Does the ACLU really promote adherence to rights guaranteed the individual by the Constitution?

http://www.geocities.com/graymada/aclu.html

------------
quote:
The U.S. Supreme Court hasn’t decided a Second Amendment case since United States v. Miller in 1939, and even then, it dodged the bullet. The Court didn’t decide whether the Amendment protects an individual or a collective right to keep and bear arms.




The Second Amendment states: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Spew Alert needed, TruLib
Dammit!

I hate wasting single-malt!



(So....anyway......whaddaya hear? Angelina available?)


Actually, TalScout
The clear implication by SCOTUS in Miller ... though they avoided writing exactly the words "individual right"... was that the Second does, in fact, ackowledge an individual right, in that they found against Miller because the sawed-off shotgun at issue wasn't in "common military usage" at the time.

What one draws from that ruling is that had Miller in fact been carrying a commonly used military weapon, he would have been correct in asserting an individual right to own that weapon.

Further, there's no time issue involved in Miller. So, the inference is that as long as the gun is question was "common" military issue

Oooooooooookay.. I'll try again.
The site freaked.

In "Miller" SCOTUS ruled against Miller on the premise that the sawed-off shotgun he used wasn't "commonly used" military issue.

Therefore, one can infer from the ruling that ordinary citizens are, in fact, entitled to own weapons of "common" military issue.

Further, in "Miller", there's no mention of time limitations -- such as only the muskets in use at the time of the writing of the Constitution -- so one must infer that ANY type of military issue-compatible weapon must be acceptable and legal.

That means virtually any man-served weapon, as I wrote earlier. Actually, it should invalidate the restrictions on private ownership od full-auto weapons, too.

I want my MP-5!


Samuel Colt
"God created men equal, Col. Colt made them equal", or words to that effect.

Don't grab my guns, be content with the fact that you don't have any. If you are envious, go out and by one or two.

Those of us in possession of our faculties will not rely on the largesse of any politician, most especially not some pettifogger from New York City.

The Right to keep and bear is both the fount and the bedrock of all civil liberties. If you think otherwise, post your name and address, the sane among us will send money so you can hire someone to tie your shoes for you.

You can't legislate common sense.

I made a boo boo
I placed a quote in my post I did not need to make my point Brian.

I know you understand this issue clearly.
-------

BrianR writes: Friday, November, 16, 2007 9:25 PM
Actually, TalScout
The clear implication by SCOTUS in Miller ... though they avoided writing exactly the words "individual right"... was that the Second does, in fact, ackowledge an individual right, in that they found against Miller because the sawed-off shotgun at issue wasn't in "common military usage" at the time.

-----------
Totally Agree

In reading the history of the 10 Amendments being added, one can clearly see that the ONLY reason they were Ratified in 1791 was because Goerge Mason fought for them to PROTECT Individuals from the Government.

Takes a moron to think the Bill of Rights is there to protect the Government.

Course most liberals are morons

A Win / Win Situation
As previously stated, it's win win situation either way the S.C. plays it. It’s just a bigger win if the court hears the case, as they’ll likely favor an Individual Right which will have National impact. But in practical terms, the previous Unconstitutional ban had no real effect. I used to live in DC where I and every one I knew have deliberately defied this idiotic law since its inception. In fact I always carried a gun “illegally”, when ever I left my home and still do when ever I go to DC. And I do so “illegally” in California where I now live as it’s impossible for most law abiding citizens to get concealed weapons permits here. Hopefully a SC decision will overturn California’s Unconstitutional gun law as well. Until then Im proud to be a “criminal” and urge others to be “criminals” as well.

LOL, TalScout
Good points all. Yes, why would GOVERMENT need an Amendment to protect its non-existent right?

It's absurd on its face as a premise.

You: "Course most liberals are morons"

Well..... yeah.....

Yes, Ragnar
That's the REAL import of "Parker".

It will, with the stroke of a pen, invalidate literally thousands of state laws across the country, including those we imprisoned here in Leftifornia are subjected to.


BrianR
Yes, I suspect there quite a few "criminal" here at TH, especially if they live here in "The Peoples Republik of California"

The second amendment / militia
KENHWIND WRITES:
MEMO

FROM: An American Gun Owner, Veteran, and registered Voter

TO: The OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES,
The UNITED STATES SENATE,
The UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, and
The SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA

SUBJECT: The Militia and the people

From;
THE AMERICAN HERTIGAGE DICTIONARY OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

Militia: 1.a. A citizen army, as distinct from a body of professional soldiers. b. The armed citizenry, as distinct from the regular army. 2. The able-bodied male citizens of a state who are not members of regular armed forces, but who are called to military service in cases of emergency. 3. The whole body of physically male citizens eligible by law for military service.

Therefore by definition; the Militia is composed of the citizens, “We the people”, and “We the people,” the citizens are the Militia. The Militia and the people are one and they are the same.

Please read the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

Amendment II.; A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

There isn’t any sporting clause in Amendment II of The U.S. Constitution
What part of “shall not be infringed” is so difficult to understand?

NO MORE GUN BANS

Sincerely;

Equal Fire Power

The people, citizens, have every right, or should, to obtain the same equal fire power as the government has available to it, accept nukes, in order that the government can not and does not have a superior advantage over the people when it comes to weaponry.

Our forefathers did not envision the technology that would come about, or maybe they did, and this is why they worded the second they way they did so that the citizens have equal access to arms.

The second does not have any stipulation as to what exactly we have a right “to bear”.


Most certainly
BrianR writes: 10:13 PM
LOL, TalScout
Good points all. Yes, why would GOVERMENT need an Amendment to protect its non-existent right?

It's absurd on its face as a premise.
--------

Instead of the 2nd Amendment reading like this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The liberals here read it like this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the government to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Not how it is read, how it is written
If you don’t think the Constitution is miss-read, look at this, then listen to what Reid says he is going to do to make sure Bush doesn’t appoint anyone while the Senate is on vacation.

So don’t you think it is possible that other parts of the document are mis-read also? People read what they want to see, not what is written. Do think a righty reads the FIRST the same way a lib does, and the Second is also read as each wants it to be. Then there is the way it was written.

I did not comment on the way people have misunderstood it, but just the way it is written.

In my opinion thousands of un-Constitutional appointments have been made by Presidents on both sides of the political chasm. Didn’t hear a mummer from the loony left when Clinton made hundreds of recess appointments.

During the Clinton years I wrote to my Senator about this, who passed it on the Justice Department, who told me they would look into it, but of course they never did.

The Constitution Article II, Section 2 says
The President shall have power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session.

And read it again, the says “all vacancies that may happen during the recess,” it does not say “all vacancies that still exist during the recess.”

Jim.... sigh....
Irrelevant.

See the earlier post to you from me, including the links and references.


Why Take Our Rights Now
Doesn’t it strike you strange that for scores of years no one had a problem with the interpretation of the 2nd until this liberal society became alarmed at the crime that there liberal laws created, and they started a movement to disarm citizens.

They lie when they say that there goal is to register, and regulate. There goal is to eliminate firearms.

I think that it is pretty clear from history that people have owned, kept, and used firearms for self defense.

It should be evident that the formers of the Constitution intended for citizens to be armed for self defense, and certainly to prevent a government from controlling them, say, like the one that they broke free from.

Again, Jim
The men who ratified the Bill of Rights all those years ago continued to keep and bear arms in their homes and on their persons after that document was adopted.

Does that, I don't know..."suggest" anything to you about how they meant the 2nd Amendment to be read?

Forgot to mention
All you people who like to consider yourselves a member of the Militia in so far as the Second is concerned, what do you think of the other places the word Militia appears.

Remember, it's the same document, written at the same time, using the same word, so if you are a member of the Militia for the Second, you are a member of the Militia for all those other reasons also.

Thank goodness we don't ever need a law for a draft, we have all the Militia, ready to go!

Recess Appointments
And read it again, the says “all vacancies that may happen during the recess,” it does not say “all vacancies that still exist during the recess.”

On December 15, 1795 the Senate rejected George Washington's nomination of John Rutledge to the Supreme Court. Note, this was a vacancy that did NOT occur during recess, but before.

George Washington exercised the first recess appointment of John Rutledge to the SCOTUS in 1795.

This was just 5 years after Rhode Island, the last state, ratified the Constitution.

Meaning that everybody who ratified the Constitution in America was still pretty much alive and could easily have said, "Hey, wait a minute George! That vacancy didn't happen DURING the recess. It happened before it! This just ain't going to work. Send that Rutledge kook packing."

Nope. They didn't say that.

Jim
Why don't you take the time to read about how the Bill of Rights came into existence and why.

Just read the historical record concerning George Mason.
It will clear it up for you why we have a Bill of Rights.

Jim
"Remember, it's the same document, written at the same time, using the same word, so if you are a member of the Militia for the Second, you are a member of the Militia for all those other reasons also."

Yes, if we are ever invaded by a foreign power or our own becomes insufferably tyrannical, I imagine quite a few Americans will consider themselves riflemen.

I doubt you'll find anybody here who disagrees about that.

Indeed, it is my opinion that when the passengers on United flight 93 fought back against their hijackers, they were acting in the capacity of militia.

Oh, there wasn't any grand ceremony with a lot of flowery prose on sheepskin vellum, but those passengers were acting in the capacity of militia nonetheless.

Even if they did not consciously consider themselves to be doing so at the time.

Correction to 10:49 PM post

It should have read:

The people, citizens, have every right, or should, to obtain the same equal fire power as the government has available to it, "except" nukes...

talent scout
Excellent suggestion!

I can't believe how people try to interprete anything without taking into consideration the times that it was written in.

Jim's just hung up on liberal indocrination and is determined to show the world, that it's all about grammar.

They do the same thing with the Bible.

You read what you want

I must state again that it depends on what you want to read into whatever you are reading.

I never said a word about what was intended, or what this one or that one said about it, I said I was looking at the exact way it is written.

Just like these e-mails, in my original Emil I said nothing about how it has been interpreted, just how it was written, but the responses have not even mentioned that.

And if you don't believe it is possible to read it this way and that, do you read, and understand either the first or second the same way the ACLU and the NRA reads them?

Well, the Constitution provides a way to be amended, so it would be nice to have it written in exact language that would not result in any misunderstanding.

Oh, by the way, do think that it would be possible to write it so each person who reads it gets the same understanding, and would approve of what it then said?

Lets look at who the Militia
jim writes: 11:25 PM
Forgot to mention
All you people who like to consider yourselves a member of the Militia in so far as the Second is concerned, what do you think of the other places the word Militia appears.
----------
Actually was when the US Constitution was written.
Unless you are just being obstinate (quite likely) this will clear it up for you Jim.

quote:
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774_1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776, Jefferson Papers 344.


JAMES MADISON

"Americans [have] the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust their people with arms."

SAMUEL ADAMS

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms . . ."


Enough of the ignorance, we will not be giving this right up to any man.

Alright, Soothsayer
You have been unfailingly nice to me, and I appreciate that. I don't think we would agree on a lot, but I also do not think we would disagree about everything.

I was just worried, thank you for your reply!

Exactly right
foxfire22 writes: 11:42 PM
talent scout
Excellent suggestion!

I can't believe how people try to interprete anything without taking into consideration the times that it was written in.

Jim's just hung up on liberal indocrination and is determined to show the world, that it's all about grammar.

They do the same thing with the Bible.
------------

Just as the bible needs no private interpreter,and interprets itself by study, the US Constitution is written in language that interprets itself for all who can read English, and the history of the men and the times.

This idea of today, only a select few can read and interpret either, is vile distortions and twisted minds injecting their own will to replace the truth of both.

Jim..... you're a moron
As to your "clever" post about the militia, it's become painfully clear you didn't read a single thing I referred you to.

In my earlier post, to which I referred you, I posted the entire US Code definition of "militia", which is the extant law of the land.

Look fool it's not a question of whether or not we "consider ourselves" a part of the militia.

We ARE! By LAW!



Man.... the quality of lib poster here is going downhill fast.

If there was one example
Of any Citizens being disarmed because they had no Right to Keep and Bears Arms in the first 150 years of America I will Kiss your (you know what).

If you can find one example of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms being questioned concerning a single citizens right in the 1st 150 years in America, I will Kiss .......

If anyone can find a court case of a Citizens found guilty of owning a firearm before the existance of the aclu, I will Kiss your.....

Its Foundational Individual Rights to Keep and Bear Arms, lets the fools rage, just do not try and ever take them.

jim
Jim, the problem is; what you are saying is what the liberals use to defend there argument that the Constitution says that only government sanctioned military has the right to bare arms. If that is so, then no private citizen has the right to keep and bare arms according to your interpretation.

Many law suits and cases have come before high courts, and the SC, and have been argued using historic letters to support that the founding fathers indeed intended for common citizens to be armed.

The question must be raised, do you or do you not believe that the founding father intend for citizens to be armed for the purpose of self defense, and to prevent tyranny.

Don’t play with words and comma’s, because you are arguing a person opinion here, not giving us a grammar class.

It is clear what the founding fathers intended because of all the documentation they left behind. So, did they use poor grammar, or are we using poor grammer.

Oh, hell, for those too lazy
to read..... JIM..... here's the extant legal code defining the militia.


"Title 10 USC, sec 311

"Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

"(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."


Which means that every law-abaiding legal resident of this country within the appropriate age range is a member of the "militia", either organized or unorganized.

So it doesn't matter whether or not we want to quibble over what the Framers meant, or if only Militia members can own guns; we ARE the militia.

Now, if someone wants to make the argument that those over 45 are no longer in the Militia, they'll have some solid ground.

Do they then also lose their gun rights? Can anyone say "age discrimination lawsuit"?



A complete moron
jim writes: 11:49 PM
You read what you want

I must state again that it depends on what you want to read into whatever you are reading.
----------
Which tells us all, you are not interested in finding any truth.

Anyone who actually wanted the truth would read the history of why we have the Bill of Rights.
Take less than 30 minutes to read about G. Mason and the BOR.

You show truth is not what you are looking for, and have an agenda against the US Constitution.
An enemy of America


BrianR
Be careful sonny boy, I’m way over the age of 45, but I can still pick the eye out of a hawk at 100 yards.

I can drop you at 25 feet with 3 shots to the chest before you can say; give me your wallet old man.

I don’t plan on giving up my gun until I come to the conclusion that I’m seeing double and can’t figure out which one to shoot first.

You're doing a fine job, as long as you don't advocate letting them take mine gun.

LOL, Foxfire!
Hell, I'm almost 59...... sonny!


The REAL irony
is that these lefty-loons all say that the Founders meant the state National Guards when they wrote "militia", which are regular and uniformed organized military units.

The Founders HATED the idea of "standing" armies, or regular and organized fighting forces.

They viewed them as the potential teeth of a despotic government.


PS, Foxfire, re "seeing double"
Reminds me of that great scene in Tombstobe.

Billy Clanton: "Huh... the drunk piano player. He can't hit nothin'... he's seein' double."

Doc Holliday: "I got two guns" (twirls guns) "one fo' each of yuh."


Lilly's question
Lilly,

To answer your question (I hope)I'll say that the people who gave you the information about the hunt club, probably have never been to one or even hunted themselves.
First, I will say that "yes" the birds are raised in "pens". To most, this may bring up images of the small boxes/cages that people have at their homes for raising chickens or rabbits or guinea pigs. In the case of game birds ie: pheasants, these "pens" can be several acres in size. They are simply a netted enclosure where the birds are "raised".
Once the birds reach adult size, they can then be selected for the hunts. On the morning of a hunt, the owners catch a given number of birds and take them out and release them throughout the club property. Later the hunters walk through the property to "jump" the birds and take their shot at them. This is not an automatic kill and I have seen many birds that escape because shots are missed. Some birds also escape once released. I have seen times when birds sit tight in undergrowth and must be "kicked" up to get them to take flight. Even truely wild birds do this as well and may be caused by their belief that they are totally hidden. Many times a bird will stay hidden until a hunter passes and then runs or flushes and flies away in a safe direction.

The anti-hunting crowd will always protray any form of hunting in its worst possible light and play on the "helpless creatures" line.

BrianR
I'm to old to run from them anymore, so I don't have much choice but to stand and fight.

I live on a farm in the country and get pretty of practice kepting the libs, I mean skunks out of the chicken house.

Love Tombstobe too.


Finally - - -
Well, Well, Well, the Posts that appear after my original at 7:41 PM, prove without a doubt my original idea was exactly correct. I basically said that different people read the same words and come to a different result. That was my original idea.

My name appears 28 times on this Blog, and of course there could be a million different comments and interpretations. What is funny are all you people who present your idea as the complete final Interpretation of the Second, that everyone will agree with.

One person said that even Geo. Washington, who helped write the thing, didn’t follow the exact words while he was President, and no one cared. Actually today there are problems with what the word “Happens” means. Well it has more letters than the word “is.”

My point was, could you or any one, or any million people rewrite the Second Amendment so that every person could read it and come up with the same interpretation, with no variation. You have proved that you can’t comment on anything and have agreement.

Whether written by a Mensa or a Moron, it won’t present an idea that is 100% agreed to by everyone.

How many million different comments, spellings, interpretations, misinterpretations could you find people insist are in the Bible. That is God’s word, and has been around for a couple for thousand years.

Now I bet I could get a ton of comments saying that 2,000 years is not correct. It really is plus or minus a minute, or a bunch of years different.

Just consider this, whatever the Supreme Court comes up with in the upcoming decision, if you wanted to waste the time, I am sure you could find thousands of decisions, and comments by the most brilliant politician or professor, and there will still be disagreement.

RKBA
jim,
How about this for a writing of the RKBA that would be impossible to mis-interpret:

"[Art.] 2-a. [The Bearing of Arms.] All persons have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their families, their property and the state."

This is from the Constitution of the State of New Hampshire.

This is also from the same document:

[Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

The 2nd amendment of the US Constitution is equally clear if you aren't trying to bolster some bullcrap argument designed to increase the power of a government slowly working its way toward tyranny.

jim
My question to you still remains unanswered.

Do you personally believe that common citizens are entitled to be armed for self defense?

Do you personally believe that citizens should be allowed the right to carry firearms if properly trained and licensed.

Do you believe that a citizen has the right to rise up against its government if human rights are deprived?

Do you personally believe that the Constitution forbids the common citizen from being armed?

Don’t need a politicians run around, just a simply answer, yes or no.

YES, YES, YES, NO, NO(?)
foxfire22 writes: Saturday, November, 17, 2007 1:16 PM
jim
My question to you still remains unanswered.

YES

YES

YES

NO

NO, oh I meant YES I did

But I still say you can't write it in such a way as to guarantee that everyone would read it and agree, and get the same meaning as you intended.

jim
What is there about the NH version of RKBA that is not perfectly clear?

jim
I hope you mean by "read and agree" that they would understand what the words meant as soon as they read them as opposed to disagree with the sentiment

2nd Amendment
I agree with foxfire22. What is it with everyone? Can't people see that it is quite simple. We are supposed to have a militia and each person has the right to bear arms. The saying "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is very true. History has proved that. And those outlaws can very well be the government. Governments, by their very nature, want to suppress and control the people.
As do criminals, and deranged individuals. We, individually,
have the right to protect ourselves and our homes.
Besides, guns are inanimate objects. They don't do anything until a real live person makes them do it.
I am very frightened by the attitude of so many today that want to allow government to arrange their lives and don't want to take responsibility for anything themselves. It is like they are still in diapers and have to be controled by Mama and Daddy.

HELLO
JOIN THE N.R.A. AND SIMULAR ORGANIZATIONS PEOPLE!
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