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Wednesday, January 24, 2007
James J. Kilpatrick :: Townhall.com Columnist
Teachers in court
by James J. Kilpatrick
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Justice Clarence Thomas stayed mum, as usual, but all eight of his colleagues got into the act two weeks ago when the Supreme Court heard argument in the case of a teachers union. When oral argument ended at noon, most observers probably thought the union's luck had run out with the clock, but these things are tough to call.

The facts are not seriously in dispute. In the state of Washington, 70,000 public school employees work under an agency shop contract. All but 3,500 of them belong to the Washington Education Association (WEA). The 3,500 non-members, by law, must pay the union a fee equal to their share of the demonstrable costs of collective bargaining. They are entitled to a rebate equal to the union's per capita outlays for other, non-chargeable, expenditures.

The system sounds simple, and in theory it is. In practice, the WEA is understandably unwilling to disgorge a single penny it has collected from the "fee payers." These are the scabs whom willy-nilly the union must represent. Thus, for a non-union teacher to "opt out" of a non-germane outlay -- say, for the cost of soft drinks at a union picnic -- the union lawyers have made a rebate procedure as difficult as they can devise. The rebates, per capita, are penny-ante. Between 1996 and 2000 they ranged only from $44 to $76 a year. In principle, they're large.

Seven years ago the free-spirited Evergreen Freedom Foundation, the National Right to Work Legal Foundation and the Washington State Public Disclosure Commission combined in suits against the union. The plaintiffs won in a trial court, where Judge Gary R. Tabor hit the WEA with a $600,000 judgment. In March of last year, the free spirits lost in the state Supreme Court. Their appeal followed to the U.S. Supreme Court.

The case was argued Jan. 10 before Chief Justice John Roberts and his colleagues. It was not a great argument, but it was a good argument. Robert M. McKenna, the Washington state attorney general, was joined by U.S. Solicitor General Paul Clement on behalf of the non-union plaintiffs. John M. West of Washington, D.C., representing the union, argued vigorously that the "opt out" procedure unconstitutionally burdens the union's First Amendment right to engage in political advocacy.

Justice Anthony Kennedy asked about the First Amendment rights of non-union teachers. West said these teachers "certainly have a First Amendment right not to be compelled to finance political, ideological and other non-germane expenditures over their objection." Their rights, he insisted, are "fully protected." Kennedy nodded agreeably.

West continued: "When there is the availability of a ready means for opting out of the participation in financing these causes, there is no compelled speech."

Kennedy stopped nodding. He seemed to be wondering how "ready" are these "ready means" in practice, but he let it go. After a few minutes, he returned with another question: "You want us to consider this case as if the First Amendment rights of non-union members were not involved?"

"Absolutely not," West insisted. Non-members have an "absolute right" to prevent the use of their funds for any kind of political speech "simply by sending in a letter."

Justice John Paul Stevens was openly skeptical: "So it's a First Amendment right that is waived by failing to make a timely objection?" It's not that a right is waived, said West, but Stevens persisted: "It's gone under your theory."

In the concluding minutes of oral argument, Justice Samuel Alito joined in expressing concern for the rights of teachers who have chosen not to join the union: "Isn't it overwhelmingly likely that if you spoke to them and you said, 'Would you like to give money to the union to spend on elections,' they would say no?"

"I absolutely disagree with you," said West. "It's not asking them to make a contribution. It's asking them, Is it OK with you if your money is used for this purpose?"

Alito asked, "What's the difference between asking, 'Would you like to make a contribution," and 'Would you like to allow us to use (your) money that we possess for our purposes rather than returning it to you'?"

"Well," said West, "whether there is a difference or not, the point is the union is using this money for purposes that it has every reason to believe are in the interest of the vast majority of teachers."

Roberts: "Surely they get to make that decision, don't they?"

Counsel's response appeared to be "yes and no," an answer that earlier provoked laughter in the courtroom. Justice Kilpatrick, meaning me, left the press benches thinking that the union's counsel had done his best -- but his best wasn't quite good enough.

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About The Author

James J. Kilpatrick has been reporter, editor, columnist, commentator, and briefly an adjunct professor of journalism.

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NEA = Never Educate Anyone....
Never, EVER, understimate the damage that the teachers unions are doing....

Never Educate Anyone == NEA....

Union Tactics Exposed
This editorial is an important eye-opener. As people blame teachers for a liberal agenda, they forget that it isn't the teachers, it's the union. Many teachers are entirely ignorant of what the union actually is.

In many states, teachers are forced to join the union (closed shop rules). In most right-to-work states, they are convinced to join them by the need for liability insurance or the other protection that the union claims to offer.

Although this particular case will lack application beyond the state of Washington, it will set an important legal precedent and set the stage for more resistance to the union. It's about time for teachers to be permitted to fight back and join organizations (or not) of their own free will.

Teachers don't know?
Ha, ha, ha. Is it the union or the teachers? Who cares? The teachers are the union.

No Union Left Behind

....How to improve Education ...

.....seperate teachers from union control ...

.....the raison d'etre for the existense of unions is to protect the rights of the workers against exploitation by capitalistic business ...

.....how does this rational fit the teachers? ...or for that matter any public service employee? .....COLOSSUS

unions and teachers
There is an excellent article on what
I am about to explain, I think by
Deborah Meier, but for now I can't find
it.


In general unions are good for education.
Compare the results of states here:
http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank06.htm

You should see the top 10 states are:
VT, MA, CT, NJ, ME, VA, MT, WI, IA, PA
and the bottom 10 are:
GA, HI, NM, LA, AL, AK, CA, MS, NV, AZ


You'll note that 8 of the top 10 states
are union states (the top 5 all are)
while 6 of the bottom 10 are right to
work states (the bottom 3 all are).
See map of union / right to work states
here:
http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm

It has taken us a long time to figure
out what works best in education, but
for the most part we have and that is
having qualified teachers in the classroom.

Unions help create conditions that do
this. If you don't believe me compare the
pay for teachers from the top 10 states
to the bottom 10 states (there are
exceptions HI and AK for reasons which
should be obvious to everyone pay more
than average).

One way to improve education wpuld be to
make right to work states union states.

Fernando
Not so. The union leadership is the union.

If unions are good for education
and, presumably, for the teachers, why must the teachers be forced to join?

re: everyonesfacts
everyonesfacts wrote:
"... One way to improve education wpuld be to
make right to work states union states."

>>

Um. No.

I would rather be Free with Crappy Schools than be a Subject with the Greatest Schools in the World.

At least as a Freeman, I can exercise OTHER options to secure my children's education, even opting out of the government indoctrination system.

Something everyone forgets:
The purpose of a union -- any union, not just teachers unions -- is NOT to improve the quality of work done by those they represent. The purpose of a union is to cause those they represent to be paid more and more while those they represent do less and less work. The ultimate goal of any unions would be to get their members to earn an infinite pay while doing absolutely no work.

As for teachers unions in particular, at one of the NEA's meetings, one of their leaders was once asked about a particular policy they were supporting how would it effect the students? The answer this particular leader gave was (and I quote) "Who cares? They don't pay union dues!"

Also, a couple of years ago, the tax records of the NEA were analyzed (since they are a union, those tax documents are a matter of public record), and it was discovered that only 5% of the union dues paid were used for the one and only purpose of a union, collective bargaining. In fact, of all the branches of the NEA nationwide, only about 50% of them spent ANY MONEY AT ALL on collective bargaining, and none of the branches spent more than 15% of their collected dues on collective bargaining.

So what was 95% of the dues spent on, then? Paying for the lavish lifestyle of their union leadership and funneling money into the coffers of the Democratic Party.

Are we surprised? Hardly.

everyonesfacts
Don't jump too quickly to the conclusion that the rankings you cited are any indication of the quality of education. That is a very selective ranking that used 21 factors from a single study. Of those 21 factors, 13 are positive and 8 are negative. Of the positive factors 3 are directly related to money spent on educations, and of the negative 7 out of 8 are related to money.

States where teachers unions call the shots are going to spend more money on education. But if money were the answer, the District of Columbia, with the highest per-pupil spending in the nation, would be near the top of educational results. But instead it is near the bottom.

Furthermore, another one of the factors in this report is the percentage of students enrolled in public schools. Of course that is going to be higher in union controlled states, but in my opinion it should be a negative factor, not a positive one. In any case, unless it can be shown to improve education, it doesn't belong in these rankings.

The bottom line is that these rankings to a large extent reflect that union-controlled states tend to rank higher in the areas (11 of the 21 factors in the study) that unions focus on -- throw more money at education and eliminate school choice. What a surprise!

everyonefacts
Are you kidding? as a former School Board member in the people's republic of New Jersey, where the NJEA runs the state, you have obviously used data provided by the teachers unions. I prefer to use both objective, third party data and empirical evidence. There are four things required to repair education today: (4) demand performance by the students in real, measureable and consistent objectives - not the "feel-good", self-actualized PC crap that has invaded the schools in the last twenty years; (3) Require participation by the parents - homework, attendence and discipline; (2) The administration run the schools as a business - with focused, prioritized budgets that have the priorities straight (hint: football is'nt in the top three) and (1) Reward teachers for teaching - which means as a consequence the unions are disbanded. There is not one UNION objective which enhances the EDUCATION of a student - the UNIONS only objectives are to make the teachers nests' fluffier. No wonder the most incompetent teachers are the unions' most vocal supporter.

reply - justpaul,CMoore,beowulfe,Larq,T
justpaul, in the case noted they don't
have to join they just pay an agency
fee for bargaining (and other related
fees). Whether there should be one
and if yes what it should be is what
the court is deciding.

CMoore, you don't have to go to the
public schools or send your kids to
one. You probably pay taxes, and those
taxes do support public schools.
You must be frustrated by the schools
but I believe that, in general, the
more you pay for education the more
you get. Compare the top 10 countries
in per pupil spending to the bottom
10 and then ask where you would
want to live.

beowulfe, you are correct that is just
the point I am making by making it
easier (usually fewer duties) and more
lucrative to teach union states attract
better teachers which as I stated is the
biggest factor to improving the schools

Please cite your source for the NEA.
Though I am aware of the allegations,
I wasn't aware that these had been found
to be true. Money can go towards a lot
of things that are in many ways related
to collective bargaining (rental space,
paying for building reps, district
reps, travel to the national meeting,
etc.), but might not strictly be
considered collective bargaining.

Larq, use whatever statistics you want,
other than CMoore's, and you will find
a similar ranking. (btw I just googled
something like ranking states education
to get the site I use)
In the original article, if I recall
correctly, there was not one union
state on the list of the bottom 10 states
article I mentioned.

T, do you really think schools in NJ are
worse than schools in GA, LA, AL, + MS?
Anyways, I don't mind your suggestions
#4, #3, and #2 but #1 is off base as I
have proven.


magazine on unions
Check out this month's issue fo the
_American Educator_ for the union's
side:
http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/issues/winter06-07/index.htm

Diane Ravitch's article should shed some
light. And Ravitch is by no means a union
stooge.

Interesting Case
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Those of you who wish to follow the antics of the supremes can do it here.

http://www.scotusblog.com/movabletype/

re: everyonesfacts
everyonesfacts wrote:

"... CMoore, you don't have to go to the public schools or send your kids to one..."

>>

You're right. I don't. For now.

In large part, that is because the NEA has *not* managed to get homeschooling eliminated as it is trying to do in a number of areas *AND* it has *not* managed to bring private schools under direct control of Government. Yet.

Regardless, you proposed that Right to Work States ought *not* BE Right to Work States, that they adopt the Unions. Guess what. When you *mandate* that someone *must* join a union to work in a given profession you *eliminate* freedom. It is that simple.

I would rather be Free with crappy schools than a Subject with stellar schools. And I damned sure won't let you sell MY Freedom for YOUR cause.

----------------------------------------

"... but I believe that, in general, the more you pay for education the more you get..."

>>

Belief and knowledge are two different things.

Many private schools, especially parochial, outperform nearly *all* public schools nationwide with *less* money per student. Nevermind the performance of homeschoolers with a tiny fraction of even private school's per pupil spending. Simultaneously, many of the *worst* school districts have some of the *highest* per pupil budgets.

You noted GA, in the bottom 10. Did you know that the Atlanta City School System has one of the nation's *highest* per pupil spending rates *YET* consistently ranks in the BOTTOM of the nation in terms of performance?

The *fact* is, education *nationwide* is in decline. Nevermind the fact that we spend *MORE* per student now than ever before, we've been throwing more money at the problem for a couple of decades now, and the problem keeps getting worse. *IF* more money were the answer, government education in America should be *sterling* by now.

Increasing school spending, in and of itself, has *not* produced results.

----------------------------------------

"... Compare the top 10 countries in per pupil spending to the bottom 10 and then ask where you would want to live."

>>

Guess what. For the most part, the top 10 countries, in terms of school performance and quality of education, have school choice. The schools are *private* and they offer a variety of educational styles, options, structures, and formula in order to compete for a higher market share of the students. Yeah, the government *pays* for it, but the money follows the students to whichever schools they attend. The government does not maintain a monopoly on the schools and damned sure doesn't say, "If you live here you *must* send your kids to *this* school, no matter how crappy it is."

voucher for everyone
here is a bit of info:
homebound teaching is about 1 hr. (teacher or tutor comes to the home and teaches the student)
what are they doing with the rest of the time?

let's support vouchers because no one gets anything out of public education except the teachers and the teacher's union

everyones(! facts)
Proven? You have proven nothing. Citing biased data is not proof. It is not a "school" that is corrupt, incompetent, ignorant or lazy - it is the staff present. A Union does nothing more than protect the least competent, the most burnt out, and the most politically connected. I have personally turned down jobs because (in the private sector) I do not WANT someone to speak for ME - I can do so myself. I do not WANT to be paid the same as everyone else here, because when I produce more or make the company more successful, I want to earn those rewards (and, conversely, you, as a lazy co-employee, have no right to the fruits of my labors). Unions are nothing more than socialism - they do the most to level the field down.

Unions plus tenure are a combination that do more to harm our children's education than any amount of money will ever solve.

And though I have no proof, I would offer into evidence my five children: One MBA, One BSChemEng, One BS Chem science, one VetDr and one PharmD.

reply to CMoore
No one's trying to steal your freedom,
least of all me (what would I do with it
once I had it?). As I said, in this
state's instance the non-union teachers
pay an agency fee for the union's
bargaining. In my district non-union
teachers pay no agency fee (thus, they
don't get to vote on the contract)

Belief and knowledge are two different
things that's why I asserted and then
I proved. Yes, spending in major cities
has been high, but as I said it needs
to be redirected towards teacher's
wallets. Interestingly, city teachers
are often paid less than the near
suburbs this must improve if we want
school performance to.

Thus, I am for increasing school
spending only if it goes to teachers.
The recent College Board report on
teachers is one I support:
http://www.collegeboard.com/press/releases/110755.html
see commentary on it here:
http://www.ednews.org/community/showthread.php?t=38

According to the most recent report from
NCES last year the public schools do as
good a job as most private schools, and
a better job than Christian (non-Catholic)
schools at educating the same kids:
http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2006461
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard...es/2006461.asp
Needless to say Bush and Spellings did not
blow any trumpets to anounce the report.
see commentary of the report here:
http://www.ednews.org/community/showthread.php?t=42
http://www.ednews.org/community/showthread.php?t=52

Education nationwide is not in decline.
See my posts on this Schlafly article
for relevant sites:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/PhyllisSchlafly/2007/01/23/marc_tucker_re-emerges_to_present_a_warmed-over_plan

I am for public school choice.
I would even be open to school choice
in a more general basis if there were
some federal guidelines.

re: moses
moses wrote:

"... homebound teaching is about 1 hr. (teacher or tutor comes to the home and teaches the student)..."

>>

That is a gross mischaracterization.

The most homeschoolers are parents teaching their own children, relying only on tutors or outside teachers for subjects they cannot handle themselves. Homeschool groups are also popular, where parents from a number of families cooperate and share education responsibilities in a group setting.

Regardless, they generally dedicate almost as much, if not *more* time, to their children's education than government schooling. It is also not uncommon for homeschool parents to educate year-round, and even turn free-time activities into educational activities making the homeschool experience immersive and almost 24/7.

----------------------------------------------

"... what are they doing with the rest of the time?"

>>

With any luck, playing and being children!

It is apalling to me that we put 6, 7, 8, and 9 year-old children into school, expect them to sit still and do schoolwork for 5.5 - 6 hours, AND THEN come home and do an additional one to two hours'-worth of homework. Recess and playtime have been drastically diminished.

More and more, with the exception of weekends, holiday breaks, and summers, our children are being deprived of the opportunity to *be* children.

And this is supposed to be a *good* thing??

Mudpuddles
I copied this from another TownHall poster on September 26, 2006. Unfortunately, I did not note the poster's alias so I cannot give proper credit. Mea culpa.

>>

"Children do not belong in school. Children learn in important ways. A child playing in a mud puddle is learning but that learning CAN NOT occur in a school.

"A school is a place where STUDENTS learn what is necessary to survive and, hopefully succeed in the society into which they are born.

"This is why schools fail in this country. We have squeezed out the learning a child gains by being a child because the 'educational establishment' can not control and elucidate this learning. The way a child learns can only barely be controlled, if that. Its rate and efficacy is as ephemeral as a child sitting on a carpet and pretending a stick is a a car or a gun or a doll or anything else.

"A child placed in a school is like a student placed in a mud puddle. If you can not understand that metaphor than you have missed the point.

"Children learn in mud puddles and trees and under beds and in vacant lots and alone and with others...but they learn at their own rate and under their own guidance. A student learns in a more structured environment. It has to be that way.

"A child can not learn how to be a surgeon while sitting all day in a mud puddle BUT a child learns a great many things in a mud puddle that will make them a better surgeon (and parent and citizen) AFTER they learn, in school, as a student, how to be a surgeon IF that is what they wish to do.

"A society that fails to teach its students is a society of children. A society of students who were never children is a cold, lifeless place unworthy of the students it produces."

T,
how is the data biased?

As I suggested to Larq find
other data and it should support
my assertions even more.


You're entitled to your opinion
on unions, but not your own facts.
The articles in the _American Educator_
magazine attest to that is not all that
unions do. And if you do believe
that, ask yourself "how much right
wing crap am I not questioning?"

Anyways,
A great textbook history of America from
a labor perspective is _Who Built America?_
http://www.ashp.cuny.edu/books.html
Add this to the conservative books on US
history, for a more balanced perspective,
by Larry Schweikart's and
Michael Patrick Allen's
_A Patriot's History of the United States_
Paul Johnson's _A History of the American
People
All are great books imho

I'm not sure what your children have to
do with anything. Did they not attend
public schools? Is that your point?

CMoore (on Moses's post)
I don't think he was referring to
homeschoolers, I hope he wasn't,
but to kids who for some reason
can't attend school and are sent a
tutor.

for what its worth I support home
schooling whether its done in lieu
of public or private schooling
or as most parents do it in addition
to schooling.

Mudpuddles aren't only open during
school hours and school days.

More BS from Everyone
Everyone,

You sound like you're reading from the typical union boilerplate, and, as usual, it fails to answer the only question I asked.

Forcing nonmembers to pay union dues is simply saying you don't even have to be a member to be screwed by the union. The union still takes your money and still represents you. And that's in this one case. The unions in general all prefer union shop rules which require you to join the union if you wish to be employed.

So as I asked: If the union is such a good deal for the employee, why must the employee be coerced into joining?

The day the unions went with the closed shop/forced dues approach, they flat out admitted that they could not make a persuasive argument for why employees should want to be a member of the unions. And that is why they continue to lose ground and membership. They do not offer a valuable service to their members.

re: everyonesfacts
everyonesfacts wrote:

"... Mudpuddles aren't only open during school hours and school days."

>>

Yup. But, there *are* a finite number of hours in a day, and a finite number of days in a childhood.

When a child rises at 0530 to get ready for school and catch the bus at 0630, gets home at 1530, does homework until 1730 or later, finishing up just in time to relax and wash up for dinner at 1830, he doesn't get any real free time -- time to *be* a child -- until nearly 1930. To get eight hours of rest, he's gotta be in bed by 2130, giving him just two hours in the evening and early night to "play in mud puddles". Even factoring in whatever recess and breaks, but also accounting for chores and such, in a 24-hour day, an average school-bound child is able to dedicate less than half, if even that, of his waking hours to play on school days. Add in *additional* activities (re: scouting, competitive sports, dance/music lessons, etcetera), their free-time for play is even more greatly diminished.

Most schools have an average of roughly 180 - 190 school-days in a school-year. That leaves 175 - 185 non-school-days for "playing in mud puddles".

In short, a great number of our children are being deprived of nearly half (or more!) of their childhood. No wonder more and more adults behave more and more like children these days. They're making up for lost time!

re: justpaul
justpaul wrote:

"... The day the unions went with the closed shop/forced dues approach, they flat out admitted that they could not make a persuasive argument for why employees should want to be a member of the unions. And that is why they continue to lose ground and membership. They do not offer a valuable service to their members."

>>

More evidence:

+ More and more, employees are voting *against* unionization. Wal*Mart and Publix Supermarkets are prime examples.

+ The unions want to *change* the rules for unionization to do away with the anonymous ballot-voting and rely, instead, upon non-anonymous petition signatures. (It's harder to bully and intimidate people that vote "No" anonymously than it is to bully and intimidate people who are *known* to have *NOT* signed the petition.)

Teachers ...
... are probably the same as 50 years ago. Some are good, some are exceptional, many stink. It is parents and families that are the real problem. As more kids from single parent or dysfunctional families entered schools (made even worse by "main streaming" ESL and special needs students), kids' performance dropped. Fewer parents can or do spend time to help their kids with home work and studying, so teachers are the only ones teaching kids. Ignoring the real problem, schools changed curriculum (for the worse) and added(worthless) administrators. More teachers and a longer school day will help, but it is the costliest, least effective way to improve education ... not that the NEA cares.

replies
justpaul,
see it your way
or see it this way:
in my district the school committee
initially offered us a 3 year contract
with 0,0, and 1% raises we ended up
getting 1.5, 3, and 3 so that's where
the agency fee goes (oh yeah, non-union
members in my district don't pay agency
fees).
I assume a teacher who represented
himself would have received a contract
closer to the offer than what we
bargained for.
Anyways,
The best reason to join a teacher's
union is to know what life was like for
teachers before unions collectively
bargained. Know your past know your
future.

CMoore, they still manage to watch something
like 6 hours a day of television too when
"the world is mud-luscious and puddle
wonderful."

Everyone, take a deep breath, the schools
aren't too blame for everything. By the
time a kid graduates high school at 18
they've probably spent less than 2 years
getting to and going to schools

re: everyonesfacts
"CMoore, they still manage to watch something
like 6 hours a day of television too when
'the world is mud-luscious and puddle
wonderful.'"

>>

Assuming the efficacy of the studies that came up with that figure, how many of those "6 hours a day" are taken out of sleep-time, run concurrent to dinner/meal-times, are stolen from/during homework time, and/or are spent during sick-days or other days NOT in school?

Regardless, 6 hours is still less than HALF a child's waking hours. Your figure does nothing to refute my allegations and observations.

The fact remains, which you have done nothing to dispute, is that roughly one-half or more of childrens' childhoods are being usurped for the purposes of formal, institutional education.

Unions
beowulf - The purpose of a union -- any union, not just teachers unions -- is NOT to improve the quality of work done by those they represent. The purpose of a union is to cause those they represent to be paid more and more while those they represent do less and less work. The ultimate goal of any unions would be to get their members to earn an infinite pay while doing absolutely no work.

Sorry, but I disagree. Some unions may do this, but trade unions such as the IBEW produce far more qualified workers than do merit shop. I speak on behalf of my husband who was trained as a journeyman electrician in merit shops, but was picked up by the union about eight years ago. Every merit shop my husband ever worked for trained each of their guys in one or two skills until they got very good at those skills. So you'd have one guy who was very good at security alarms and another guy who was very good at conduit bending, but the conduit bender couldn't do security alarms and the security alarm guy would mess up a lighting system.

When my husband was picked up by the union, he quickly learned that union employers might have specialists, but that all tradesmen had at least some skill in all areas. The security alarm guy actually could wire the lights, though he might be slower at it than the lighting specialist. My husband spent a good deal of time retraining himself using union resources so that he would be a "union" electrician and not just an organized hand.

Now, I will agree with you that non-trade unions (like the NEA) frequently downplay skill over longevity and seek to get maximum wages for minimum work, but you can't say ALL unions.

My experience is that a trade union (meaning highly skilled workers) will give you a better product than a non-union company will. This is not the case where non- or low-skilled workers have been unionized. Teachers, whether they like the attribution or not, are not trade workers. Their product takes too long to evaluate and has too many fingerprints all over it.

statistics
I love it when someone points to an obscure fact and uses it to justify a totally unrelated effect. Could there be a reason Hawaii and Alaska are not on the bottom tier of states (if any of these states are really bottom tier in education)? I noticed GA listed in the bottom tier of states but I wound up with the same textbook for Physics in Physics 101 that I had in High School in GA. One of the oldest tricks in the propaganda trade is to find an unrelated fact and state that it is caused by some evil that the proponent is pushing.

Point missed

.....why do teachers need unions? ...who pays their salary? ...

.....ans. the taxpayers ...why should any group of "public servants" have the power to coerce more tax dollars out of the public coffers without the permission of those who do not benefit from their services? ...(the childless and the elderly?) ....does anyone want to take a stab at answering these questions? .....COLOSSUS

TEACHER UNIONS HAVE RUINED EDUCATION!
SCHOOL TAXES are the most destructive force to home owners and renters in this country. And the MONEY does NOT go to educate students. The money mainly goes to OUTRAGEOUS teacher SALARIES and BENEFITS! TEACHERS average 12 months pay for 8 months work. And if they choose to work a summer "EDUCATIONAL" (artificial position) they make extra money for doing little. Teachers only work part days for full days pay. AND THE UNION ALWAYS MAKES TEACHERS COMPLAIN THAT THEY SHOULD MAKE MORE BECAUSE THEY WANT "PARITY" with some other school system. It is NOT private enterprise so there is NO QUALITY CONTROL. MEDIOCRE AND SUB PAR TEACHERS ARE NEVER FIRED UNLESS IT IS A CRIMINAL MATTER. And the benefits are the best of ANY group in the country. TAX FREE BENEFITS THAT ARE EQUIVALENT OF MORE THEN THEIR SALARY. Before TEACHER UNIONS there were dedicated teachers. Now it is very hard to find a dedicated teacher! TEACHERS UNIONS CONTINUE TO FOOL THE PUBLIC WITH POWERFUL PROPAGANDA!

Teacher Unions
I'm a first year teacher myself. I am, unfortunately, in the union. I won't claim any amount of ignorance. I signed up for it knowing full well that the unions are one of the largest forces working AGAINST education today. I was somewhat strong-armed into it.

Basically, all of the new hires were called together for a several-hour long meeting to talk about various things--I won't bore you with the details. The union rep got up and talked to us for about ten minutes, and then passed out a form.

We had about ten minutes to decide to join the union or waive the benefits of the union for the year. I asked if I could take the information home and look over it and was told no. Basically, I signed up because a)I can't afford to be sued without the union to provide a lawyer and b)first year teachers get sick a lot and the union can help out with teachers who need more than their given sick days.

As far as teachers, there are some good, some bad, and some phenominal.

I for one completely support the voucher system. Competition helps to ensure that a service is improved, and education is no exception to that rule. And I can say that even as someone who, as a totally inexperienced professional, is likely to be very vulnerable to a system that encourages schools to get rid of teachers who don't know what they're doing. The public education system isn't likely to improve if unions actively FORCE schools to allow bad teachers to continue teaching.

The case has high stakes
and is one of the most important the Supreme Court chose to hear.

Why? Because the teacher's unions, as all unions, are overwhelmingly liberal and unions spend the most money of any other group on political expenditures to the Democrat Party.

If the teacher's unions are forced to ask all teachers permission to use their dues for political purposes, according to the Evergreen Freedom Foundation in Washington State, almost 50 percent of teachers here are conservative so the Democrat Party would lose a lot of union contribtuions.

The Evergreen Freedom Foundation reported in 2005 that teacher contributions to the Washington Education Association's political committee dropped from 82 percent to 6 percent since the adoption of our paycheck protection law in 1992. And Evergreen Freedom Foundation's work with labor activists in Utah resulted in the state workers' union zeroing out is political fund because members were not contributing. In Colorado, 40,000 teachers were given political refunds from the union and requests for refunds increased 400 percent in 2005.

These statistics seem to me to prove that many, many teachers throughout the country would not fund union political contributions if given the opportunity; very bad news for the liberals controlling the unions and the Democrat Party.

The reason this issue was brought before the U.S. Supreme Court was the fact that Washington State Court of Appeals ruled that a union's right to collect money for politics trumped a teacher's right to free speech which activied 500 members of Evergreen Freedom Foundation to appeal to Washington State Attorney General McKenna to appeal this ruling. McKenna by the way is a Republican in a sea of ultra-liberal Democrats who rule every other aspect of state government including the fraudulently elected Democrat governor, formerly attorney general who with the prior Democrat governor, made it her duty to override many voter initiatives and referendums appealing bad laws enacted by the legislature. She and the Democrat-controlled legislature continues to thwart the people by declaing an emergency which precludes voters from initiating referendums and iniatives even though Washington State law allows them to do so.

Democrats, my friends, are completely corrupt and do not want a representative form of government nor free speech whether it is local, state, or federal.

BMT..get your facts straight
"Teachers only work part days for full days pay"

What exactly are these "part days" you speak of? I am paid a salary for a 40 hour work week and for working 190 days out of the working year which is 260 days( minus weekends). Do I work only 40 hours per week? NO! No good teacher worth their salt can work just 40 hours per week. I work an extra 2 hours per day just to be able to get all my papers graded, go to scads of meetings, have parent conferences, and tutor students. I work an extra 10 hours per week and that doesn't include the mandatory night appearances for games, concerts, registration, graduation..etc.. Thanks to my extra hours I work the equivalent of an additional 55 days..that's 245 days...and I am being conservative in my estimates.

You have NO CLUE what you are yelling about.

"OUTRAGEOUS teacher SALARIES"

Are you kidding me?

"And if they choose to work a summer "EDUCATIONAL" (artificial position) they make extra money for doing little."

You mean summer school? Have you ever taught summer school? Because if you have you would know that statement makes you sound pretty stupid. I teach it every year and its not "a little " work.

"TAX FREE BENEFITS THAT ARE EQUIVALENT OF MORE THEN THEIR SALARY"

Please illuminate me on these benefits. I've never heard of them!?!

"TEACHERS UNIONS CONTINUE TO FOOL THE PUBLIC WITH POWERFUL PROPAGANDA!"

I agree, but everything else you wrote is silly. You are uninformed. Go visit a school. Spend a day with different teachers in all grade levels before you start talking about something you know NOTHING about.

Teachers, bad and good, cannot be blamed for the educational problems we have. The public school system is socialist in nature. Where do these ideas come from? Teacher degree programs at colleges. Schools of education have the some of the lowest standards, if not the lowest for any degree a person chooses to persue....ergo any idiot can be a teacher. These people are indoctrinated by liberals in college and bring their idiotic notions to the classroom. Teachers are only as good as their training. You want to improve schools?....make being a teacher harder. Get rid of "education degrees." Make them get degrees in what they will be teaching and then and only then train them to manage a classroom. Most teachers take more theory courses in education than the subject courses they will teaching.

You want to improve your child's education? Homeschool. Even though I am a public school teacher, I know best how bad and how good it can be....and I would homeschool my children.

replies
Vic, your a victim of your own
logic.

CMoore, no, not half of a children's
life. By my estimates at most 2
out of 18 years. And there
is recess and gym and field trips
that should be similar to playing
in mudpuddles.

aurorawatcher, the unions have
been pushing for increasing
standards for beginning teachers.
They have been, as you argue,
very defensive about not changing
standards for teachers already in
the field. And they do do voluntary
training and have workshops. I know
I've taken several. For the most
part very good because they were
very practical.

baseballdoc,
if you have a problem contact your
school committee members and tell
them how you feel, but you live
in a representative democracy not
a baseballdocracy.

BMT, you don't know what you're
talking about. Look at the stats
in the college board report I linked
earlier. btw, the report does
recommend extending the school year
to 200 days.

cl0vver, make sure you know what the
liability insurance entails. The union
will pay for your court costs up to $1m
IF you win your case.

Lainie, if anyone believes in representative
government it is the NEA. If you belong
you should try to become a delegate from
your district and then you can propose and
vote on anything that comes up at the national
meeting. If you can't attend you should
share your feelings with your delegates.



re: everyonesfacts
everyonesfacts wrote:

"... CMoore, no, not half of a children's life..."

>>

I never said half of a child's life. I said half their xchildhoodx. There is a difference.

When you have to rewrite the terms of *my* arguments in order to refute them, you have a problem.

-------------------------------------------

"... By my estimates at most 2 out of 18 years..."

>>

You consider 16- and 17-year-olds children?

*Your* estimates includes a significant portion of a young-persons' adolescence. Developmentally, childhood ends at adolescence (around 12-years-old on average).

The fact is, not counting Kindergarten, during the six years of formal, institutional education (grades 1 - 6) through the age of 11 (up to the age of 12), school and school-related activities account for the second largest, single expenditure of children's time (second only to sleep).


Let's run the numbers...

First, according to the US Department of education, the average school-year is 180 days.
http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pss/tables/table_15.asp

Second, school days average about 6 - 7 hours per day. However, that's usually determined by the opening and closing bells. It does not count the time children are *at* school before and after it starts. So, I'll split the difference, 6.5 hours, and subtract 45 minutes for lunch (meals will be included later), and add 1 hour for early arrival and late departure, to arrive at an approximate average of 6.75 hours *at* school per day for the math.

Third, according to a 2006 Associated-Press/America online Poll, the average homework load is about 78 minutes per day for elementary school and 99 minutes per day for middleschoolers. Additionally, we'll guesstimate about 2 hours per week for studying (24 minutes per day) since study time is not typically included in homework time surveys.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2006/07/opposing_view_h.html
http://nancykalish.com/works.htm

Fourth, by the time a child has walked to a bus-stop, waited for the bus, and then ridden the bus to school, *then* waits for the bus after-school and walks from the bus stop home, he has spent an average of one hour per day commuting to and from school.

Finally, the numbers will *NOT* account for required reading, science/math projects, research papers, and other such, long-term assignments that are not generally considered "homework" assignments.


So...

(1) 180(days in school-year) x 6.75(hours per school-day) x 6(years of school, grades 1 - 6) = 7,290 total hours spent *at* school (minus lunches)

(2) { [ 180(school days) x 78(minutes of homework per day) x 5(years of elementary school) ] + [ 180 x 99(minutes of homework per day) x 1(year of middleschool) ] / 60(number of minutes in an hour) = 1,467 total hours spent on homework

(3) [ 180(school days) x 24(minutes of studying per day) x 6(years of school) ] / 60(minuts to an hour) = 432 total hours spent studying

(4) 180(school days) x 1(hour commuting to/from school) x 6(years of school) = 1,080 total hours spent commuting to/from school

So, school-days (1) + homework time (2) + study time (3) + commuting (4) =
... 7,290 + 1,467 + 432 + 1,080 = 10,269 approximate total hours spent *at* school *and* on school-related functions.


Now...
(A) A child has a total of 52,560 hours in those 6 years.
[ 365(days per year) x 24(hours per day) x 6(years) ]

(B) A child spends a total of 17,520 hours sleeping (on average) those 6 years.
[ 365 x 8(average hours of sleep - nighttime and naps - per day) x 6 ]

(C) Figure about 3.25 hours a day eating (45 minutes per meal plus two 30 minute snack-times), that's 7,118 hours (rounded to the hour) spent eating.
Note: This includes school-lunches.
[ 365 x 3.25(hours eating per day) x 6 ]

(D) Figure about 2.5 hours a day on hygiene (brushing teeth, dressing/changing, combing/doing hair, bathing, using the bathroom, etc.), that's 5,475 hours.
[ 365 x 2.5(hours of hygiene per day) x 6 years ]

So, total hours (A) - sleeping time (B) - eating time (C) - hygiene time (D) =
... 52,560 - 17,520 - 7,118 - 5,475 = 22,447 total gross "free" hours to "play in mud puddles" (*be* children).
(Note: That, of course, does not include *other* non-play activities that take time such as travelling to/from activities, etcetera.)


I wrote (addressed to you), on Thursday, January, 25, 2007 at 4:25 PM, and I quote (copied and pasted):
"The fact remains... is that roughly one-half or more of childrens' childhoods are being usurped for the purposes of formal, institutional education."

Well ...
... 10,269(total school hours) / 22,447("free" hours) = 0.457, or just under one half...

Yup. Roughly one-half of their time to *be* children is being usurped for formal, institutional education.

I will concede, factoring in the first five years (before First Grade), that I am exaggerating a bit about usurping "roughly one-half or more of childrens' childhoods" for formal education. Regardless, I stand by the premise of my conclusions: We are taking TOO MUCH childhood time away from children.

-------------------------------------------

"...And there is recess and gym and field trips that should be similar to playing in mudpuddles..."

>>

You *obviously* did not understand the mudpuddle essay. "Playing in mudpuddles", is self-directed, independent discovery - *being* children.

RE: Recess:
Recess is *not* universal and becoming less and less common. Additionally, recess sessions are becoming more and more directed and structured. Similarly, Kindergarten is becoming more and more structured, with *directed* games and less and less free-play.

RE: Gym / PE:
Gym and PE are *not* self-directed play or independent discovery. They are structured, directed activities and, consequently, do *not* equate to "playing in mud puddles".

RE: Field Trips:
Field trips are, almost always structured and directed activities and, consequently, with the exceptions of field trips to playgrounds and parks for free-play, do *not* equate to "playing in mud puddles".

everyonesfacts
My point exactly.

I had no time to figure out if the union was of ANY benefit to me. I simply had to gamble on it. As it stands, short of a prolonged illness, or a highly unlikely lawsuit, I'm throwing too much money away on dues for entity that does basically nothing for me.

My Education Recommendation
The Unions and the Democrats say that more money would solve the problems with education. Look at the recent past. In the past 30 or so years the amount spent per student has risen drastically, while at the same time the SAT scores (or any other objective measure of performance) has gone down. If there IS a relationship between money and educational performance, it must be an inverse one, more money, less performance, less money, more performance. Therefore the way to get more educational performance would be to cut the money spent to educate the children. Just point this out the next time you hear some Liberal moonbat say we don't spend enough on education.

Seriously, vouchers that follow the individual student would be the best way to improve education. Free market competition works every time it's tried. It's time to try it in government schools as well.

final post on this article
CMoore, I appreciate your efforts, but I stand by my math.
The mudpuddle analogy is a bit strained unless you're
arguing that all childen's time should be spent in
mudpuddles

ClOvver, the card authorization was unfortunate but the
choice was still yours. As for what the union does, I think you
need to do some research and find out what teaching was
like before unions started representing teachers. Serfdom
would be a good word for it. You can also see my post on
salaries negotiated in my district - obviously a 7.5% raise is
better than 1% over 3 years.

Steve, I am for vouchers for school choice in public
education. The money argument you make is wrong.
Although not perfect, one can successfully argue the
more you spend the better education you get. For
instance, compare the top 10 countries in per capita
spending to the bottom 10. Where would you want
your child educated?

Along with others on the list I agree that home-
schooling is usually the best education for kids.
Unfortunately, it is also the most expensive in
that it takes a productive adult out of the workforce.
These two phenomena are probably why most
people choose to send their kids to public schools
while at the same time home schooling is growing.

re: everyonesfacts
everyonesfacts wrote:

"... CMoore, I appreciate your efforts, but I stand by my math..."

>>

What math? You never offered any math. You offered an *estimate*. Your *estimate*, by the way, is largely irrelevant to the topic of *children's* time spent in formal education *because* you *ALSO* included adolescents.

I also notice that, while standing by *YOUR* estimate, you utterly fail to address, much less refute, *MY* math. Gee, I wonder why that is...

---------------------------------

"... The mudpuddle analogy is a bit strained unless you're arguing that all childen's time should be spent in mudpuddles..."

>>

That is utterly disingenuous and clearly demonstrates that you also failed to comprehend the mudpuddle essay. C'mon, even you're not so dense as to believe that anyone is suggesting that children should be "playing in mud puddles" *instead* of sleeping, eating, bathing, going potty, or, for that matter, in *other* forms of play.

Heck, no one's even suggesting that they should *NOT* be in school or engaged in some other form of formalized education. Rather, I have argued that children spend *TOO MUCH* time in formal, institutional education.

Since you failed to refute *my* math, I am going to assume that you accept it as an accurate approximation. Well, *my* math demonstrates that 45.7%, nearly half, of children's free hours from the ages of 6 - 11 are consumed by school and/or school-related/required activities.

And that is *WITHOUT* accounting for additional time spent on school for *other*, non-homework/non-study assignments and activities like required reading, science and math projects, extra tutoring, regional Spelling Bees, Parent/Teacher/Student conferences, after-hour assemblies (eg: concerts and plays), and etcetera. All of *those* activities *ADD* to the amount of time dedicated to formal education.

Additionally, my math does *NOT* account for time spent on chores and other non-school-related activities (eg: travelling to-from family or the park) which further consume children's free time. Accounting for all of those additional time expenditures would bring the percentage closer to, if not over, half of (school-aged) children's free time (ie: time *NOT* spent on sleeping, eating, and hygience -- basic necessities) consumed by school.

And *THAT* gives me reason to stand by contention: We are taking away TOO MUCH of our children's childhoods for school. In other words, We are depriving them of nearly half (if not *more* than) of their free time (ie: time *NOT* spent on sleeping, eating, and hygience -- basic necessities) for school during the years that they should be spending *more* time being children, *more* time playing.

---------------------------------

"... Although not perfect, one can successfully argue the more you spend the better education you get..."

>>

One can *only* successfully argue that when one is *not* arguing with someone else *AND* when one ignores the facts.

(A) On average, the *best* education in America comes with the *lowest* budget. Private and home schools habitually outperform government schools and generally operate with lower, per student budgets.

*IF* your premise were true than we would expect to see private and home schools *FAILING* with their current budgets.


(B) Some of the *lowest ranking* government school systems (eg: City of Atlanta and Washington DC), in terms of performance, are amongst the *highest ranking* school systems in terms of per student expenditures.

*IF* your premise were true, than we could reasonably expect the *highest* spending districts to *ALSO* be the highest performing districts on average.


(C) America has been spending more and more money on education with little to no appreciable benefit, even continuing to decline in overall quality.

*IF* your premise were true, than education in America should be dramatically *BETTER* than it was in the '50's, or even the 70's -- high school graduates should *NOT* be *LESS* literate and educated today than Eighth Graders were in the '50's.


Sorry, bud. Facts and history utterly disprove your premise.

Gee. I've covered this already, but I notice you *never* addressed my previous post on this particular, false premise. I wonder why...


Oh, John Stossel covered it too...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2006/01/18/myth_schools_dont_have_enough_money

---------------------------------

"... For instance, compare the top 10 countries in per capita spending to the bottom 10. Where would you want your child educated?"

>>

Let's see your figures. Substantiate.


According to Stossel's figures (from the linked article):

"The truth is, public schools are rolling in money. If you divide the U.S. Department of Education's figure for total spending on K-12 education by the department's count of K-12 students, it works out to about $10,000 per student.

"Think about that! For a class of 25 kids, that's $250,000 per classroom. This doesn't include capital costs. Couldn't you do much better than government schools with $250,000? You could hire several good teachers; I doubt you'd hire many bureaucrats. Government schools, like most monopolies, squander money.

"America spends more on schooling than the vast majority of countries that outscore us on the international tests. But the bureaucrats still blame school failure on lack of funds, and demand more money."


Even if you *are* right (difficult to verify since you only offer unsubstantiated, rhetorical assertions), you have only identified a correlation *NOT* a cause. For instance, compare the *STRUCTURE* of the education systems in the top 10 countries, in terms of quality of education, to America.

You fail to account for the fact that the vast majority of overseas schools that outperform us are *NOT* government schools. They are, nearly to a school, private and compete with each other in the marketplace for students. Even though the government *PAYS* for education (through voucher-like programs), the government, by and large, does *NOT* own and operate those schools.

Private school competition accounts for far more of those countries' education performance than their per capita education spending. Indeed, unless you have something substantive to refute Stossel's numbers and conclusion, it's pretty evident that a number of those school systems do better than American schools with *LESS* money.


On average, in America *and* abroad, *private* schools do better with *less* money than our government schools. That deflates the more-money-equals-more-education myth.

Continuing to put forth a premise so clearly false, especially in the face of contradictory evidence, merely demonstrates that you are an intellectually dishonest apologist for the teachers' union(s) thereby making your credibility, particularly in the lack of non-union-endorsed evidence, highly questionable.

---------------------------------

"final post on this article"

>>

LOL The famous last words of the intellectually incompetent and cowardly. You cannot actually offer any substantive, reasoned rebuttals, so you offer one "final post" in order to have the last word and (attempt to) avoid further embarassment.

as a courtesy
I'll respond, if only to keep my good name.
Cowardly? How dare you.

No, it was my final post because I believe we
are only posting for each other - not that
there is anything wrong with that, but I think
there is little point, no insult.
And I thought I would let you and others have
the last word. So courtesy not cowardice.

MATH
Anyways, my math was simple - 8 hrs a day
180 days = 60 days a year x 12 = 720 days
(about 730 days or 2 years).
Yes - child under 18, adult over 18

SPENDING
Although as I said, not perfect, if so US would be #1
see spending (per primary student):
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_pri_sch_stu-spending-per-primary-school-student

and duration of schooling (yes that doesn't tell us what
they know):
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_exp_dur_of_edu_for_all_stu-education-expected-duration-all-students

Sorry don't have the bottom 10 but they don't make either
list.
btw statistics are from this site:
http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/edu-education
if someone has a better site I'll check back.

Yes, it's not a perfect correlation - I'd be the last
to say $ was the deciding factor. Parental educational
level will play a larger part, so will income, etc.
Thus schools in suburbs who spend less have better
student outcomes than urban areas who spend more.

For the public vs. private debate check the ednews.
org links I posted above.

But I will say this, when it comes to private schools the
best as far as I know are still the most expensive
Philips Andover, Philips Exeter, Groton, Roxbury Latin,
Frances Willard, etc.
Am I wrong?

(So, contradictory evidence, yes, always, but I think these
are exceptions.
I equate it to team spending in baseball - the Yankees and
the Red Sox will spend more than other clubs and if not
having the best club they will usually be in the top clubs.)


STOSSEL was stupid on America! Not a good source.
See: http://www.ednews.org/articles/66/1/The-Case-Against-John-Stossel/Page1.html

and: http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh011706.shtml

and the AFT's 20 + page rebuttal:
http://www.aft.org/presscenter/downloads/sidebyside.pdf

or watch the piece yourself .

I will check back, but
this intellectual incompetent coward will hang up his phone
and take your reply off the air.

re: everyonesfacts wrote:
everyonesfacts wrote:

"... Cowardly? How dare you...."

>>

It's quite easy, actually. Execute intellectually cowardly manuevers, and I'll call 'em.

------------------------------------------------------------

"... Anyways, my math was simple - 8 hrs a day 180 days = 60 days a year x 12 = 720 days (about 730 days or 2 years)..."

>>

I notice that, once again, you have offered *no* rebuttal of *my* math.

Now, do you have anthing to offer in rebuttal to *my* math for the number of hours spent over six years by school-aged children between 6 and 12?

If not, then I can reasonably assume that *either*:
... (A) You accept my numbers and my math ;
*OR*
... (B) You *reject* my math, out of ideology (agenda-drive principle) rather than reason (demonstrable errors or fallacies on my part), in which case defending *your* math while *ignoring* mine is nothing more than slight-of-hand tactic of misdirection (a tactic of intellectual cowardice).

So, which *is* it?

Since you so ardently defend your intellectual courage I am going to assume the former (A), in which case I can safely assume that we agree upon the estimates I provided earlier. Thus, just for the sake of argument, *your* math is off by a tad...

... (a) 6.75 hours (or 405 minutes) to an average school-day;
... (b) 1 hour per day, on average, to commute to *and* from school (30 minutes each way);
... (c) 88.5 minutes per day for homework on average (78 + 99 / 2); and
... (d) 2 hours per week (averaged to 24 minutes per day) for studying on average...

The time spent on school averages to about 9.625 hours per day...
... 405 + 60 + 88.5 + 24 = 577.5(minutes per day) / 60(minutes per hour) = 9.625(total minutes per school-day).

Thus, extrapolated over twelve years...
... 9.625(hours per scool-day) x 180(days per school-year) = 1,732.5(hours per school-year) x 12(years of school) =
... 20,790(total hours on school in twelve years) / 24(hours per day) = 866.25(total 'days')

That's still within the two-year ball-park, but your estimate is low by about 136 days (a bit over four months) by my figuring.

Also, *both* of our estimates fail to account for *additional* time *required* for school but not generally considered "homework" or "studying"; required reading assignments, science and math fair projects *and* attending the fairs, after-hours assemblies (eg: concerts and plays), Parent / Teacher / Student conferences, tutoring, and etcetera. When all of the time spent on those kinds of activities is tallied up and averaged, it probably brings the per-day number of hours closer to 10 which, substituting 10 for 9.625 in my equation above, nets 21,600 total hours or 900 'days'.

------------------------------------------------------------

"... Yes - child under 18, adult over 18..."

>>

No wonder teens are so messed up these days! Folks like you keep insisting they're still *children*...

From the American Heritage Dictionary:
- child - n. - A person between birth and puberty.
- adolescence - n. - The period of physical and psychological development from the onset of puberty to maturity.

Hint: Stages of physiological development are *not* defined or established by our Legislators. EiGtheen is the Age of Majority; *Legal* adulthood. It is *not* necessarily the age of physiological adulthood. Developmentally, childhood ends at adolescence which is generally considered to have begun with the onset of puberty.

Meh. You're smart enough to use the internet. You'r smart enough to comprehend, both from context (re: the mudpuddle essay) *and* my explicit remarks (re: specifically distinguishing between children and adolescents), the developmental stage and therefore age-range that I was referencing. So, I'm sure that you were already aware of all of this.

Thus, the inescapable conclusion is that you continue to insist on including adolescents in a disengenuous effort to artifically skew the perception of the amount of childrens' time consumed by school in your favor. Gee. That's kinda like the anti-gun lobbyists including 15-, 16-, and 17-year-olds in their statistics to artifically inflate the number of children killed by firearms. In other words, it is intellectually dishonest and cowardly obfuscation.


Regardless, just for the sake of argument...

Even *including* adolescents, according to my math, the numbers work out to the same result. Since we're talking about twelve years of school and my math covered the first six, we only need to multiply every variable by two. Thus, quickly estimating for the total twelve years (by doubling all of my figures), school *still* consumes just under 50% of childrens' and adoloscents' time *NOT* spent on daily necessities (re: sleep, sustenance, and hygiene).

So, even applying *your* definition of "child" (ie: below the Age of Majority), young people dedicate just under half of their 'free' time -- the time *NOT* spent on daily necessities which they have "available" for "playing in mudpuddles", socializing, or just *being* young people -- to formal, institutional education. The math *still* supports my assertion that we usurp roughly half or more of children's childhoods for formal, institutional education.

Thus, I *stand* by my contention that *children* (re: persons between birth and puberty) spend too much of their time to *be* children (re: their childhood) in, on, for, and about school.

------------------------------------------------------------

"... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_pri_sch_stu-spending-per-primary-school-student

"and duration of schooling (yes that doesn't tell us what they know):
" http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_exp_dur_of_edu_for_all_stu-education-expected-duration-all-students "

>>

Also, you left out Secondary School spending.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_sec_sch_stu-spending-per-secondary-school-student

Note: America ranks #4 in primary and #3 in secondary.


Now, did you dig any deeper?

How about Grade 12 Advanced Math?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_gra_12_adv_stu_mat-grade-12-advanced-students-math
+ From the site: "DEFINITION: Results of the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) involving a half-million students in 41 countries."

The US ranks 15th, yet is 3rd on spending. France ranked 1st, but is 6th on spending. Also, Greece is ranked number #7 in math, but 18th on spending.

Of the other top 10 performing nations in the TIMMS for Advanced Math, three don't even show up (are not in the top 21) in NationMaster's ranking for spending on secondary education: Cyrprus (ranked #5 in math), Lithuania (ranked #6), and Canada (ranked #9).


How about Grade 12 Science?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_gra_12_adv_stu_sci-grade-12-advanced-students-science
+ From the site: "DEFINITION: Results of the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) involving a half-million students in 41 countries."

The US ranks 16th. Switzerland ranked #8 while being the number one spender, per student. And Cyprus is again in the top 10 at 7th and Slovenia is ranked #4, but also does not rank within the top 21 in per-student spending.

(Continued below...)

------------------------------------------------------------

"http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/edu-education
"if someone has a better site I'll check back."

>>

Actually that's a really cool site! Thanks for pointing me to it!

------------------------------------------------------------

"... Yes, it's not a perfect correlation - I'd be the last to say $ was the deciding factor..."

>>

(Continued from above...)

Yet, you're pretty darned quick to tout increased funding as a primary solution.

Perfect or not, it is *still* merely a correlation. The problem is that you have taken a correlation and defined a premise (ie: more money on education equals better education) which implies a *more than* a correlation, but a cause-and-effect.

If your premise were true, then we could expect to see little appreciable variation between the three charts -- secondary spending per student and Grade 12 rankings in Math and Science on the TIMSS. In other words, we could expect to see all of the top ten spending nations ranking in or very close to the top ten in terms of achievement. Yet, several nations hit the top ten on achievement without even getting a note on the spending chart.

America, ranking #3 in per student spending on secondary education, ranked #15 and #16 on Math and Science respectively. Similarly, Austria while ranking #2 on spending, ranked #16 and #15 on Math and Science respectively. And Greece, ranking near the bottom, #18, on spending, ranked #7 and #11 in Math and Science respectively.

In fact, only 3 of the top ten spending nations made it into the top ten on *BOTH* Math and Science.

------------------------------------------------------------

"... Thus schools in suburbs who spend less have better student outcomes than urban areas who spend more..."

>>

And that alone is enough to demonstrate the fallacy of the cause-and-effect nature of the correlation you've identified.

------------------------------------------------------------

"... For the public vs. private debate check the ednews.org links I posted above..."

>>

Yet, a quick google search pointed me to this article...
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=16674

"A recent analysis of national test score data suggests private schools do a better job than public schools of closing the achievement gap between black and white students as they progress from fourth to 12th grades."


As well as this:
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/2002013.pdf

In general, the US Department of Education had this to say:

+ Private school students generally perform higher than their public school counterparts on standardized achievement tests.
+ Private high schools typically have more demanding graduation requirements than do public high schools.
+ Private school graduates are more likely than their peers from public schools to have completed advanced-level courses in three academic subject areas [mathematics, science, and foreign language].
+ Private school students are more likely than public school students to complete a bachelor's or advanced degree by their mid-20s.


Also...
http://www.publicpurpose.com/pp-edpp.htm

Finally, from the National Center for Education Statistics...
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/about/nonpublicschools.asp#results
... Be sure to follow the links to the achievement comparisons for Math, Reading, Science, and Writing.

------------------------------------------------------------

"... But I will say this, when it comes to private schools the best as far as I know are still the most expensive...
"... Am I wrong?..."

>>

I couldn't say since I haven't taken the time to research those schools' tuition rates *AND* their average performance. Regardless, even assuming that you are correct, that the best private schools are the most expensive, that still fails to prove your premise. Once again, it *only* supports and identifies a correlation.

It does nothing to demonstrate, much less support, a cause-and-effect relationship.

------------------------------------------------------------

"... I equate it to team spending in baseball - the Yankees and the Red Sox will spend more than other clubs and if not having the best club they will usually be in the top clubs.)..."

>>

That's a really poor comparison. Those teams are competing in a free market where, *generally speaking*, greater capital investment nets greater returns. Additionally, they answer to their customers. If the product they offer is costs the consumers more than they're willing to pay or does not meet their standards the franchise suffers. When the franchise suffers for revenue, they have to make cuts and changes to "get competitive" again.

By contrast, education in America is dominated by government schools with little to no appreciable competition. Since government schools don't have to compete with each other -- they each get their own little district and slice of the pie -- there is no real market pressure to (a) reduce costs *and* (b) increase productivity/quality.

Now, contrast that to the Private School sector. Private schools *do* compete with each other *AND* tuition-free government schools for "customers". They are under pressure to provide a service of a quality that is commensorate (or better) with the customers' anticipation and expectations in relation to the cost. Consequently, *on average*, they manage keep their prices below average while simultaneously producing above average results.

It is true, in the free market, that greater capital investiture *generally* results in greater results (ie: increased productivity and quality). Again, though, that is a correlation, not necessarily a cause-and-effect. On the other hand, education is *not* a free market.

------------------------------------------------------------

"... STOSSEL was stupid on America! Not a good source..."

>>

Huh. You didn't even bother reading the article. The article I linked to was an article about the myth that more funding equals better education. Yet, you immediately post rebuttals to his "Stupid in America" piece (an entirely different article).

So, first, that's just lazy.

And, second, absolutely fails to debunk Stossel's article about the funding myth.

Opt-Out System Victimizes Teachers
Dear Editor:

James Kilpatrick writes in “Teachers at Court” that Washington Education Association’s attorney John West argued vigorously [at the Supreme Court] that the ‘opt out’ procedure available to nonunion teachers “unconstitutionally burdens the union’s First Amendment right to engage in political advocacy.”

While the Washington law in question actually calls for an “opt-in” process before the union can use nonunion teachers’ bargaining fees for politics, it is no wonder Kilpatrick got the two confused. The WEA thrives on the convoluted opt-out system, which results in the union retaining most of the nonunion members’ $200-$300 dues rebates. The opt-out system, what West ludicrously called “simply sending in a letter,” is in truth such an arduous procedure that most teachers who want out are unable to complete it within the short drop period, or don’t even attempt it at all.

Furthermore, most teachers remain in the dark about their opt-out rights because union officials, often aided by school district accomplices, do all they can to obstruct the information. WEA killed two bills in the state legislature that required notification of union opt-out rights and even sued teachers who tried to inform others of their rights.

The justices at the Supreme Court were right to give Mr. West such a hard time about his so-called “easy and convenient” opt-out method for teachers. The First Amendment is being violated, but it is the teachers, not the unions, that are in need of protection. Let’s hope the Supreme Court recognizes this and rules truly in favor of teachers who are routinely victimized in the name of “labor peace.”

For more information about teachers’ rights, contact the Association of American Educators, http://www.aaeteachers.org, 800-704-7799.

Cindy Omlin
Executive Director
Northwest Professional Educators
An affiliate of the Association of American Educators
http://www.nwpe.org

Union Gives Teachers the Shaft
The Washington state legislature is currently hearing a WEA-drafted bill that would eliminate the safeguards of the paycheck protection law in order to circumvent the potential of a decision from the US Supreme Court that would uphold the law. The bill includes an “emergency clause,” which allows the legislation to go into effect immediately, and denies the people their constitutional right of referendum. I don't believe that preserving a union’s coerced political funding is a state emergency!

Teachers just want to do a good job in the classroom and have their First Amendment rights respected. Is that too much to ask of the teachers unions?

Cindy Omlin
Executive Director
Northwest Professional Educators
http://www.nwpe.org

The bottom line
Public education in the USA is an unaccountable monopoly and does a poor job. Choice is the answer, but choice is fought vigorously by the unions. 'Nuff said.
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