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Thursday, September 21, 2006
James J. Kilpatrick :: Townhall.com Columnist
Case of the 20 dirty pictures
by James J. Kilpatrick
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Unless the U.S. Supreme Court intervenes, Morton R. Berger will spend the rest of his life in an Arizona prison. Maybe he deserves it. Then again, maybe not. These are the facts.

In June 2002, Phoenix police arrested Berger on a state warrant charging him with sexual exploitation of a minor. Specifically, he was charged with possession of 20 photographs depicting, among other things, children being raped by adults, children engaging in sexual acts with other children, and children in sexual acts with animals. The 20 images introduced at trial were part of a large collection of pornographic images accumulated over a period of at least six years.

A jury found Berger guilty on 20 counts of sexually exploiting children under the age of 15 and sentenced him to 10 years on each count, the sentences to run consecutively. Last May the Arizona Supreme Court affirmed that judgment. One justice dissented; another expressed reservations. Last month counsel filed Berger's appeal in the U.S. Supreme Court. We will know by mid-November if the court will hear it.

There is no question of Berger's guilt. He emerges from the record as an almost classic "dirty old man." There is no evidence that he himself ever engaged in distributing, exhibiting, receiving, selling, purchasing, electronically transmitting or even "exchanging" pornographic images, all of which the Arizona law forbids. He was convicted solely of "possessing" such images. He collected them.

These facts should weigh in your calculus, for good or ill: He is 52 years old, married, a father of four, an award-winning teacher of world history. He has no criminal record of any sort. The state offered no evidence that he has ever created pornography or improperly touched a minor.

In their appeal to the Supreme Court, his counsel rely upon a single argument: The unservable sentence violates the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution. The amendment decrees that courts may not inflict "cruel and unusual punishments." The 200-year prison sentence imposed on Berger is plainly "unusual." At that punitive level, Arizona stands alone. Its minimum 10-year sentence for possession of a single piece of child pornography is greater than the maximum sentence for this offense in 35 states. It is equal to the maximum in nine others.

Is the 200-year sentence also constitutionally "cruel"? Who is to say? Manifestly, the question is hypothetical, or academic. On the record, Berger is a middle-aged, dirty-minded, part-time pedophile. But also on the record, he has never physically harmed anyone. He never even bought any of this stuff. He merely downloaded it.

In the Supreme Court of Arizona last May, Justice W. Scott Bales held that the sentence imposed on Berger must be affirmed unless it is "grossly disproportionate" to the crime. To answer that question, he said, judges must consider (1) the sentences imposed by Arizona on other crimes of comparable gravity, and (2) the sentences imposed by other states for the same crime, i.e., possession of pornography involving juveniles.

After weighing the state's "compelling interest" in protecting children from sexual exploitation, Justice Bales voted to affirm. Justice Andrew D. Hurwitz not only concurred, he "fully" concurred -- but he "reluctantly" concurred as well. If he were a legislator, he would be free to find such a long sentence "shocking to my conscience and vote for a less draconian sentencing scheme."

Justice Rebecca White Berch, dissenting in part, had the last and most sensible word. She agreed that courts must defer to legislatures on the fixing of criminal sentences, but the Constitution prohibits sentences that are "grossly" disproportionate. In this instance, Arizona's sentence for possession of pornography "is by far the longest in the nation." It is more severe than sentences imposed in Arizona on first offenders for rape or aggravated assault.

In the federal courts, Justice Berch observed, where sentencing guidelines are fixed by an extra-judicial commission, Berger would have faced only five years in prison. Arizona's sentences for possession of child pornography are "not merely disproportionate, but grossly disproportionate to the crime."

She concluded: "I do not condone Berger's crimes. Child pornography is a serious offense. ... Nevertheless, we are asked to determine in this case whether 200 years is just punishment for a defendant who possessed child pornography but directly harmed no one. The sentence provides no opportunity for rehabilitation and provides no second chance."

This is a case the high court ought to hear. Morton Berger may be a creep, but on the record he's a pretty sad creep. The sentence is absurd.

(Letters to Mr. Kilpatrick should be sent in care of this newspaper, or by e-mail to kilpatjj@aol.com.)

COPYRIGHT 2006 UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE

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About The Author

James J. Kilpatrick has been reporter, editor, columnist, commentator, and briefly an adjunct professor of journalism.

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Maybe this is the start
of something GOOD. Maybe more states will follow suit.

If we can catch them BEFORE they molest...
We can SAVE a lot of children.

Help me out here.
Mr. Kilpatrick tells me that
There is no evidence that this man 'received' or 'created' these images. He MERELY possessed them.

Maybe he should be in jail just for being a miracle worker.

Oh, and as a bonus he is an 'award winning world history teacher'.

Yeah. That helps.

This sentence may well be 'unusual', but I'd like to propose that we make QUITE usual.

Mr. Kikpatrick must not have any children of an age that he needs to worry about this sort of thing anymore.

Sorry. I do. This sentence is PERFECT.

The eyes, window to the Heart
If Morton R. Berger, collects child pornography, and feeds his mind with images of violence, and un-natural act of children, he without a doubt should be locked away from children. When one who is feeding on evil and has a role in life or position of power over children, should not be left unchecked ,to their own ill, sickened ways. That is what is wrong in a society that fails to deliver help to those whom are a threat to innocents. After the tragity citizens ask why no one was aware, why did'nt they help this sick man. Responsbile people must act to protect the youths, and also to preserve families and others from harm or a more tragic fate.

Mr. Berger Should Be Thankful
At Least Arizona does not prescribe the death penalty for possessing child porn. He may still get a chance to escape from prison or be pardoned by a future left-wing governer. He will also probably get to look longingly the young inmates in the prison showers--how could anyone think of that as cruel and unusual punishment for a pedophile?

I have no sympathy for Mr. Berger.

During the course of his education, he must have studied economics, so he should understand something about supply and demand. He and those like him create the demand that generates the supply--and causes irreparable harm to innocent children.

I have changed my mind. Perhaps Mr. Berger should not have to serve his 200-year sentence. His sentence should be commuted to life in prison without the possibility of parole. I think that would be more humane.

Innocent because he didn't PAY for it?
"On the record, Berger is a middle-aged, dirty-minded, part-time pedophile. But also on the record, he has never physically harmed anyone. He never even bought any of this stuff. He merely downloaded it."

The way I read this sympathetic explanation is that feeding your pedophilia is, like, okay, AS LONG AS YOU DON'T PAY FOR IT.

Does this include going over to the neighbour's house and watching him have sex with his five year old daughter, as long as you were invited by the father and he doesn't ask you to pay him?

How about joining a chat room where you exchange photos of other fathers arranging sex romps with their children and their children's friends? Doesn't cost anything, that doesn't.

What happens the day you open your e-mail and get a picture of the guy down the street sodomizing your son? No problem there, eh, as long as no money changed hands?

When I was at university, before debate and rhetoric gave way to mindless chanting of things that started with Hey Hey! Ho Ho!, this was called "specious reasoning."

How about we lock the guy up for the length of time it takes him to write one billion times in his best handwriting "When people stop downloading photos of children being sexually tortured, people will stop sexually torturing children." Or some other phrase crafted by an old-fashioned nun with one of those pointers manufactured by the people who make hockey sticks?

P.S. The man is married with children. Has anybody asked the children what they think of their father and the press opining that sexual torture of children is, like, no big deal?

Where does our compassion, our hearts
Are we people with compassion??? Who does our heart bleed for? Is it the evil doer, the one whom chooses to focus on smut and violence, against our children. We as liberated society, looking foward to all the pleasures of seeking our rights to the pursuit of happiness, do we take heed to the need of a safe, healthy, sane and protected society. Does one wonder about the consquences of an outbreak nationwide, as we imbrace a totally free sexual soceity. When was, sex a free act, free from disease, human humiliation. Are we to make our hero's the dispicable, one example for instance, Governor Mc Greevey, of New Jersey. Or the Leader of the poligmy sect- Warren Steed Jeffs. Lets start by getting real and accepting responsiblity for our actions and our children. It a sex crazed world and the young & innocent are no longer.

Arizona's sentencing policies
Remember, this is the state of Arizona. They regularly inflict cruel and unusual punishment on their convicted persons. I know, I have a cousin in the prison system there who should have been out LONG AGO and free from all harassment from the parole board. But alas, they goaded him into doing something that would put him back in prison. The state of Arizona needs a general overhaul of its laws and sentencing practices. I say, let Mr. Berger go!

Supply & Demand
If nobody wanted child porn, then there would be no market for it. The fact that this man had it means others are molesting and hurting children to supply it to him...Lock him up for a long time and get the people who supplied it to him and so on down the line. Lighten his sentence if he provides the supplier. Give tougher sentences to those who make the stuff, and try to find the exploited kids. It has to start somewhere to get to the end result.

Only protest this punishment
If you have similar pictures in your home. The bit dog is barking. Kilpatrick has announced his deviancy.

Berger is guilty...
...but he is being punished out of proportion to his crimes. In our rush to be seen as doing something to protect children from harm, we pass laws that look good at the time, but aren't so good in practice.

We pass laws that restrict the movements of covicted sexual offenders, wher they can live and work, and in pass out flyers to 'warn' people of their prescence. But how many times do we get people that are not predators caught in this trap?

I have a cousin that is now onthe sex offender registry for having pled guilty to a sexual battery charge. He will forever be categorized as a sex offender, and if he moves to a new area he will have to register there and be subject to any other restrictions that are placed on sex offenders.

His crime you ask? When he was 19 and working as a custodian at the local high school, he began dating a sebior student that was 17. They began having sex, her parents found out, and he was prosecuted for it. He did not rape the girl, he was not so much older than she that it shocked the conscience. It just happened that her parents didn't like the fact that their little girl was sleeping with a black guy; their publicly expressed sentiments, not mine!

So when I see stories like this, it outrages me. While Mr. Berger should be held accountable for his crime, he should not be held to a higher standard than a murderer. When the legislature makes laws like this, while allowing laws that set killers free in less time than this, I think that our priorities are out of whack.

Wouldn't you know?
Of all the deplorable miscarriages of justice there are to lament in this country, with hundreds of young Americans serving life sentences without possibility of parole for minor pot offenses, Kilpatrick choses this to protest!

Somehow I'm not terribly surprised!

THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING
Lately, these pedophile slime have been crawling out from underneath the slimy rocks where they live to take their place in the sun with the rest of civilized society.
There is a slimeball in Ohio who is petioning the state not to prosecute him because his desire to have deviant sex with pre-pubescent children is his 'sexual preference.'
I heard and 'eminent pychiatrist' on television refer to pedophilia as a 'sexual preference.'
Just the other night I heard a lawyer representing a man who had in his posession over 200 pictures of children in all manner of sexual perversion plead for his client to receive only six months in jail and supervised probation for 10 years. Oh, yeah, he is petioning the judge hearing the case to have this creep submit to lie detector tests to determine whether or not he is telling the truth.
Correct me here. Aren't lie detector tests inadmissible in court?
When confronted with the fact that the children in these photographs were brutalized in the worst way possible, his response." Well,so what. These pictures are made overseas anyway."
Yeah. So what.
The looney 'do as I feel fit and will not suffer the consequences' liberal answer to everything.
You wait, readers. The way things are 'progressing' for social mores in the country, these perverts will be out in the open chanting for their 'civil rights.'

What a load of baloney
All right Kilpatrick, I have your measure. You are found lacking on the Lazlo Meter.
POSSESSING child pornography is a crime in AZ (where I reside). The reasons for this are:
1) Someone had to get a child into a room and do this stuff him or her, or coerce them to do this with another child.
2)Someone had to have the intent and willingness to photograph this stuff to remind them of the happy day, or for the express purpose of making money off their willingness to photograph it.
3)Someone put this stuff on a website. This website has an address (just like the one on your house) that anybody who knows it can arrive at. The main reason to have a website is to share (sometimes for profit) whatever you decide to put on it with others. In this case it was children having sex.
4)Mr. Berger went to the address(es) on the web and SAVED the images.
He is therefore complicit in all the preceding crimes; thus the sentence of 200 years.
Mr. Kilpatrick is crying about the 200 years.
The 200 years is not for Mr. Berger. It's for the other 'Model Citizens' who might be surfing the web looking for this kind of trash. The 200 years is called a 'deterrent'. It is used to prevent other crimes.
Mr. Berger will not live out the sentence. That is the only fault I can find with this whole deal.
Kilpatrick whines on about the fact that Mr. Berger has committed no other crimes, and is a proud father and an award winning teacher.
So?
Big deal.
He surfs the web looking for images of children having sex with adults and other children. He is creating a market for people to continue to commit this foul practice.
Mr. Berger, enjoy your stay in the gray bar hotel.
Mr. Kilpatrick, go haunt some other house.

No Tears Here
Was the sentence too harsh? Yes. Do I care? No.

Are award-winning teachers and fathers in Arizona now more likely or less likely to wank themselves to the images of the rapes of children?

And SJ Doc, if disgusting thoughts were a crime, you'd be on death row. Probably the most disturbing post I've read on this site.

gregdn
Kathy:

If I collect pictures of bank robberies, does that make me guilty of a crime?
This is a real slippery slope we're on.
BTW- I have no sympathy for anyone who molests a child.

Something's missing
If Berger just had these images on his computer, no one else would know about it. How did the DA find out? I think there is more to this story than is being told here. Anyone know?

Crime and punishment
"In this instance, Arizona's sentence for possession of pornography "is by far the longest in the nation." It is more severe than sentences imposed in Arizona on first offenders for rape or aggravated assault."

All the means to me is that sentences imposed in Arizona for first time offenders of rape and aggravated assault are not nearly strict enough... Berger got exactly what he deserves.

My blood is up ...Gregdn,
Equating bank robbery with child porn is an immature arguement at best.
The people who work in banks are adults and have made the educated decision to work in a bank despite the risks of banks being robbed.
What educated decision did any of the children in Mr. Berger's 20 photos make?
This is no slippery slope.
Your BTW is a pitiful sop to throw out.
People were profiteering from the rape and molestation of children in the photos. Even if they weren't making money on the site, they don't get any points for being a not-for-profit child porn ring.
My assesment of the issue is that there are indeed other circumstances involved.
It has been shown that most convicted child molesters have committed many crimes by the time they are caught.
But.. he was found guilty of of the crimes he committed, and the great state of Arizona has given him his punishment.
I'll say again the 200 years is not for Mr. Berger, it's a deterrent for the other 'model' citizens out there who create a market for this abominable crime. And for child molesters everywhere that Arizona is not a good place to go if you have this proclivity.
I only hope it was in Yavapai county so Sherriff Joe Arpaio gets his hands on him.
If this were the 1800's all Mr. Berger would get is a rope. Now he will get three hots and a cot for the rest of his miserable days. Much much more than he deserves.

Correction..
Sherriff Joe Arpaio works in Maricopa county, not Yavapai county (Where Lazlo lives).
Just a case of wishful thinking while typing.
I apologize for the error.

The RIGHT kind of child porn laws
The problem with this issue is that it is so emotionally charged and the individuals in question are perceived (rightly or wrongly) as incredibly vile, that we tend to abandon rational thought. I know this post is not going to be popular, but it truly scares me to see what some people are suggesting with regard to this problem.

First and foremost, those who claim that this "industry" is fueled by demand are exactly correct. Those who create and sell these images (with the exception of those that create for their own private enjoyment) do so only because there are willing buyers for the material. Neither the creator nor seller are interested in doing pro bono work for all the perverts out there. But material obtained by an individual freely does NOT add to the demand for material and may even lessen such demand. Someone who can get something for free is less likely to want to buy it. I think a legitimate argument can be made that possession of freely obtained material (not created, bought or sold) does not hurt anyone or contribute in any way to the child pornography industry. As such, i don't believe that mere possession should be criminal unless it can be proven that the individual created, bought or sold the images. But I do believe that we need much harsher penalties for those that engage in commerce since THAT is where the supply and demand are generated. I would fully support the death penalty for those who create and life in prison for buyers and sellers.

The more troubling aspect of this issue is that of "behavior". Many people seem to be of the opinion that those who view such images will INEVITABLY attempt to molest a child. First, there is no study of which I am aware that has reached the same conclusion. Once there is, I will gladly acknowledge it. Secondly, it is rather chilling to imagine people advocating the arrest of someone for a crime that they will EVENTUALLY commit. Why not arrest people in bars since they have had too much to drink and will LIKELY drive under the influence later? And violent video games and guns certainly lead to murder. There is also an element to this that is equally disturbing, criminalization of THOUGHT. As abhorrent as I find pedophilia, no one should be arrested for their fantasies until they act on them. I know that is a tough one for parents to swallow, but a child molester is not a child molester intil they commit the act. I certainly don't wish that on anyone's children, but I also cannot advocate the limitation of individual rights within the legal system either.

As I said at the start, this is a difficult issue made more complicated by the high emotions involved. I don't expect most of you to agree with what I have written, but I hope it will at least give some of you occasion to reexamine the consequences of some of your arguments regarding crime and punishment. I will gladly celebrate the day that child pornography is defeated as long as we don't compromise our American freedoms and values along the way.

No Tears Here
I did a google search on Mr. Berger. What I learned:

1. He turned down a plea bargain offer of 17-36 years.

2. His "large collection" contained thousands of images that he had collected for years and arranged in an elaborate filing system.

Let's see. Thousands of pictures, at 10 years per picture -- he could have been locked away for more than 10,000 years had he been convicted for every offense. He should count himself lucky prosecutors only charged him up with 20 counts of possession.

Yeah it's a long time...
...but the kids in Arizona will be safe from at least one slime-ball for the next 200 years.

Puftwaffe..
You have made some good points which bear consideration. Especially about the difference between viewing pictures and the actual act of molesting a child. You are right that making certain thoughts crimes is abhorrent.
Having said that, I must respectfully disagree with the premise that viewing such pictures is not actually a crime perse.
Getting the children to do those things is a crime.
Taking pictures of those acts is a crime.
Using the internet to display the pictures is a crime.
Arizona state law states that being in possession of the pictures is a crime.
Mr. Berger profited from the crime mentioned because he received gratification by the appearance of the pictures on his monitor.
If he had sat on a hickory stump and fantasized all day for a hundred years there would be no crime.
But he chose to avoid my blog and instead go to sites where the pictures he was caught with were available.
He did not arrive on those sites by accident.
He chose to be a consumer.
Your point about having the pictures available for free actually driving down the demand I think does not hold up to scrutiny. Having them available at all is a crime. Being given a piece of stolen pie as opposed to paying for a slice of stolen pie makes the pie no less stolen.
As far as your comparison about arresting drinkers at a bar, I agree. Mr. Berger was not actually commiting the crime of child molestation, but he was profiting from the crime after the fact.

We can not be too tough on these crimes
Some want to say they were just pictures.

Well it sounds like some children were raped to get some of those pictures, it sounds like some children were induced to have sex with other children to get those pictures, it sounds like some children were induced to have sex with animals to get those pictures.

This is not a victimless crime, the lives of these children will be shattered.

Just as the person who steals goods would not do so if he could not find someone who wants to buy them. So the one who fences stolen goods is as big or bigger problem then the one who steals the goods, the one who buys the pictures induces the one who takes the pictures to take the pictures.

Further more the person who looks at the pictures may act out on what he is seeing.

I say we can not crack down too hard on this.

How about
organizations, legal and receiving tax dollars, that refuse to report the rape of children to the authorities when the organization has absolute proof that a rape occurred, what penalty should the people running these organizations receive? Is their crime more vile than Berger's crime? Quite a confusing society we live in. One group is lauded and financially supported by the government for ensuring rapists are NOT discovered and prosecuted, while an individual receives 200 years for showing interest in extreme perversions. How many of you castigating Berger support an organization(s) that collaborate with rapists?

Post-It, etc.: Double standards
And SJ Doc, if disgusting thoughts were a crime, you'd be on death row. Probably the most disturbing post I've read on this site.


Do I think the sentence is too harsh? Yes. Do I really care? No. However, I am disgusted with this society’s double standards: (1) Teacher Debra LaFave: raped a boy, blames mental illness gets a slap on the wrist & is rewarded with a sympathetic “puff piece interview” on MSNBC. (2) Andrea Yates: plans & murders her five children out of convenience, plays the mental illness card & granted a 2nd trial with the possibility of parole due to mental illness (thanks to her NOW-financed legal team.) (3) Mary Winkler: apparently greedy & stupid enough to fall for a variation the of the classic Nigerian Bank scam. Her husband made the mistake of yelling at her for losing thousands of $ in savings- she subsequently blew his spine out with a shot gun while he slept. She currently out on bail. The list goes on…

I am disgusted with all the sanctimonious women-children who consistently practice the neo-marxist “Man bad, Women good” social philosophy on this website. In this case every one of you is ready to crucify some pathetic slimeball, while thinking it is perfectly “normal” for women that exercise their "reproductive rights" 1.4M times annually (w/o considering the corresponding responsibilities)by aborting, committing infanticide, & outright abandoning their children for purely capricious & arbitrary reasons. I find it hypocritical that a group of women who think it is "normal" for women to kill their children out of convenience aren't capable of grasping the concept that said gender is just as capable of abusing their children with the same callous lack of regard for human life. Reality: WOMEN commit 60%+ of all documented cases of child abuse- including sexual abuse. But that is the modern “objective” woman-child. Maybe you all should focus your collective ire at the most ostensible source of “child abuse”- their respects MOTHERs and the paternal legal system that coddles them, rather than this pathetic slimeball.

Lazlo
First of all, I never said that viewing the images was not a crime, I was asserting that MAKING mere possession illegal serves no purpose and should not be a crime by itself. I stated repeatedly in my post that creating, distributing, buying and selling of such images SHOULD be criminal and severly punished. However, possession alone is not proof of any of those other acts. You can make what ever common sense inference that you want concerning a person caught possessing, however our legal system is bsed on proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

I also never stated that the availablity of free images would DEFINITELY drive down the demand for such images to be produced. I merely stated that free images would not drive UP the demand for production and MAY in fact push demand down to a degree. I am not sure how your "stolen pie" analogy is appropriate. In simple terms, child pornography is a visual record of a crime that was committed (momentarily setting aside crime of posession), just like a video or pictures of a terrorist beheading a hostage or a bank robbery as mentioned by a previous post. People IN all such vidoes are "hurt" to varying degrees, and yet no one postulates that merely viewing these non-pornographic images involves the viewer in the crime in which they originally of no part. And certainly there are many that feel publicizing such crimes only serves to encourage others, yet child pornography is the only material that is not legal to even possess based on that reasoning.

So for one more time, VIGOROUSLY pursue all those that create, distribute, buy and sell such images in order to solve the problem instead of taargeting the least culpable in the chain of events. Again, this is just food for thought and meant to stimulate more thoughtful discussion on an issue that people are rightfully horrified by, but seldom rational about when formulating a response.

The Difficulty of a Free Society
Most of you would probably agree that if someone harmed your child you would be very tempted to meet that person in a dark alley with a baseball bat to 'convince' them never to do it again.

This is why we have laws. Its why we have a Constitution. It isn't there to protect your right to sing 'Sunshine and Lollypops' while standing on a street corner. It's there to protect things that many might find abhorrent and offensive. Or in this case, to protect the accused from justice in a dark alley.

It sometimes seems as thought the only person in the criminal court system with rights is the defedant. That's because, if we are going to give the government the power to deprive a person of their freedom and perhaps their life, we should really want to make sure that power is not abused.

This guy is guilty. Children were harmed. But this guy wasn't the one who did it. They should perhaps catch the people who did. I once read in an article in Reason Magazine that the authorities don't do this more often is that because of harsh sentences for creating kiddie porn, most of the stuff out there is decades old. Unfortunately, that makes the utterly contemptable sleaze bags who made it a lot harder to catch.

Some previous poster took issue with comparing this crime to robbery. How about this, then? Drug dealing. In trafficking illegal drugs all sorts of crimes are committed frequently including murder and often dealers sell to kids too. Should someone arrested with a baggie of pot or a few grams of cocaine be held responsible for these crimes, too, simply because we can't catch the dealer?

Hate to have to spend my Thursday morning defending purveyors of kiddie porn, but I thought this needed to be said.

Case of the 20 dirty pictures
Not one individual submitting comments on the article has seen the pictures the prosecutor submitted at trial which the judge then decided might be shown to the jury. According to K's description they were "photographs depicting ... children being raped by adults, children engaging in sexual acts with other children, and children in sexual acts with animals." Notice the word "depicting" rather than the word "of." I've seen images produced by Photoshop that looked as though they were pictures of real events, events that could not possibly (if the laws of physics are correct) have taken place.

Berger has been convicted of "20 counts of sexually exploiting children under the age of 15" and sentenced to 10 years for each count, although none of the ACTS may have been committed at all, to say nothing of having been committed by HIM.

Evidently Berger admitted having amassed a "large" collection of pictures over a number of years. The article didn't say he admitted to having chosen the particular pictures presented at trial, but I must assume he did. (Had he denied placing those pictures on his computer, it would be so simple for another with access to his computer to install pictures without his knowledge the jury would have had to ignore reasonable doubt to convict him.) (Had he admitted only that it was his computer, I doubt he would even have been charged.)

Okay, Berger had dirty pictures and, unlike the prosecutor who selected them for presentation and the judge and jury who looked at them, the desire to possess them. I don't think that justifies locking Berger up for 200 years -- or even 2 years.

Good point, MOSwas
What happens in the near future when computer animated images are so realistic and easy to produce that new child pornography will be created without any child participating or even lending their image to the creator? Should this material be made illegal even though no person was harmed or exploited at any point in it's production?

Spoke too soon...
...and rushed into my opinion, but after reading some posts from people far more enlightened and progressive than myself I now see the error of my ways.

You compassionate types are certainly correct, let the man out of prison, return him his pictures and raincoat. He can live across the street from your children and grandchildren, for that matter get him a teaching job at their school. Bottom line is, you want him then he is your problem, don't come whining to the rest of us when the leopard shows his spots.

Leroy
My opinion on the matter has nothing to do with compassion. His proclivities are just as disgusting as your assertion that we should lock people up for what they MIGHT do. A crime is not a crime until it is committed and only punishable when proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If there is too much freedom and individual rights here for you, maybe you should emigrate to a country where such values are not held in high regard.

Changed my mind, too
Leroy is right.

We should just lock people up based on what they might do instead of what they have done.

In fact, any man who has ever bought a Playboy or watch dirty movies should be locked up because it could make them want to comiit rape.

You and Susan Brownmiller would have so much to talk about.

Case of the 20 dirty pictures
Virginia Lady discovered "1. Burger turned down a plea bargain offer of 17-36 years." and "2. His 'large collection' contained thousands of images that he had collected for years and arranged in an elaborate filing system." ("Elaborate filing system?" By age of child and act depicted? Or did he just have a dozen folders named for the dates he downloaded the pics or the websites he found them on? Most people don't put thousands of pictures in one folder, but instead organize them in some manner.)

She then says, "He should count himself lucky prosecutors only charged him up with 20 counts of possession."

She does not say every one of those thousands of pictures was a dirty picture or even that she has seen just one of the pictures. Somehow, Burger deserves a lengthy sentence -- 10000 years by her calculation -- because he turned down a 17-36 year offer.

Well, only a rational person who thought the evidence against him was so overwhelming that he couldn't possibly be found not guilty would accept a 17-36 year sentence. Burger is 52. His life expectancy in prison is probably so low there's little difference between a 17-year sentence and a life sentence.

I'm sure Burger was shocked when the judge sentenced him to 200 years when people convicted of far worse ACTIONS, like actually murdering someone or actually molesting children, normally receive far lighter sentences.

One More time.
Puftwaffe
Mr. Berger profited from the crime mentioned because he received gratification by the appearance of the pictures on his monitor.

putwaffe
We are willing to lock up habitual drunk drivers because they just might cause a fatal accident.

I did not say the man should be locked up, the jury did that, (I almost said "a jury of his peers"), they saw the evidence and felt he was guilty under the law. While the column did not say it, there must have been other underlying forces at work here, otherwise why did the issue of the pictures come out at all. My thoughts are to leave him where he is.

Alaska Girl, you surely cannot equate a magazine or movies where grown women have prostituted themselves with child pornography. Certainly there must be a distinction here.

Please excuse my bluntness, I have always had a very low tolerance for rapists and pedophiles, as such I have little sympathy for people who take pleasure in pictures glorifying those acts.

Lazlo
What Mr. Berger may have "gained" from the original crime of a person producing child pornography has nothing to do with the crime itself. Mr. Berger's possession of the images did not benefit the CREATOR, which is the whole point surrounding the argument. And what he does alone in the privacy of his own house is his business. You seem to be implying that it is criminal to ENJOY the images.

Leroy
Habitual drunk drivers get locked up because they are likely to DRIVE DRUNK again. They are not locked up because they MIGHT commit a more serious crime. You want to lock up the drunk before he has ever demonstrated that he is going to get behind the wheel. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way here.

And as far as people that take pleasure in images that you find offensive, thankfully we don't lock people up for bad taste. Images showing murder, rape, bestiality, vandalism, and theft are not illegal to view and posess. And while I can certainly question WHY someone would derive pleasure from such pictures, what someone THINKS or FANTASIZES about is not subject to the legal system.

supply and demand
Pornography is a big and profitable business. Businesses don't trive without customers. There is a symbiotic relationship between them. Without folks purchasing child pornography, there would be a whole lot less children abused by pornographers, because there would be no money in it.

Arizona chose to treat buys, sellers, and producers of child porn equally. If any one of the three are elimated, then less children will be abused.

So, in this case, Berger is no less guilty than the person who actually made the pictures, because without folks like Berger, they probably wouldn't be making the pictures.

200 years? Yeah I think that is excessive. But at least he has a lawyer working on his case. Having money and friends really helps. An old friend, Berger's old cellie at Eyman, just has a public defender and he has little chance of getting out before his time is through. I would predict Berger will have his sentence reduced, but still won't get out anytime soon.


20 PICTURES OF SMUT
What are you thinking defending this guy? And Did he feel good enough to share his pictures with his wife and children? Bet not, and I do not recall read what he used as an excuse for having these pictures in his possession. It pretty much has been documented that pedophiles never are reabilitated, and as long as they are alive they pose a threat to our children. As with anyone who becomes unfortunate enough to have to be at the mercy of the US penal system, it's pretty much a fact that the way the system is designed, it's pretty much of a warehousing facility rather then a place of rehabilitation. The question that you need to ask your self Mr. Kilpatrick is, do you think that there is any family in any town USA that would welcome this guy to be their neighbor when they have young children outside playing in the nearby yards and streets? The craziest thing I have ever heard is when the pedophilies are released, they are required by law to stay so many feet away from schools or facility that have young children in attendance, so is this supposed to mean that children who walk past his house who may be either inside or out side of the boundary by just one foot are to be considered safe? Visitwww.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views, thoughts and opinions.
Heads Need To Roll

puftwaffe
Apologies, I just noticed my mis-spelling of your name one my previous post, was not intentional.

At any rate, it was not his thoughts or fantasies that put him into prison, it was his possession of illegal material, in this case that material was child pornography. In my state possession of drug paraphernalia even without the drugs is an arrestable offense, granted it won't get you 200 years. The theory being where there is smoke (I just could not resist the pun)there would be fire.

I do agree we cannot and would not want to arrest people strictly on their thoughts or beliefs but this man has moved past thought to the action of having these pictures. That action broke the law, I think we both agree on that. It seems where we differ is that you believe this law was either misapplied in this instance or is itself over-reaching where I believe the law has been used to rid us of a pedophile.

Of the two of us, you and I, it would seem I am the cynic and you the more reasoned. We cynics have need of you, it helps with the balance of the world.

Questions
silicondoc said:
"Seems to me if these pics were 20 out of thousands and there is nothing else to speak of, he should cooperate with authorities to help track down those distributing for free online, in order that the very, very guilty parties are brought to justice.( someone had to be making the pics, and they obviously need to go to prison)"

schlicty said: "Give tougher sentences to those who make the stuff, and try to find the exploited kids. It has to start somewhere to get to the end result."

Lazlo said: "POSSESSING child pornography is a crime in AZ... Someone had to get a child into a room and do this stuff him or her...Someone had to have the intent and willingness to photograph this stuff...Someone put this stuff on a website..." and "Getting the children to do those things is a CRIME. Taking pictures of those acts is a CRIME. Using the internet to display the pictures is a CRIME. Arizona state law states that being in possession of the pictures is a CRIME."

So...WHY, oh why, isn't the state of Arizona going after these slimy bottom-feeders who are PRODUCING this filth?? They're the ones in REAL "possession" of it! I mean, Berger's a sleazeball, yeah - but 200 years? That's a bit much, especially when algae like O.J. are still running around free.

Puftwaffe has it right: "VIGOROUSLY pursue all those that create, distribute, buy and sell such images in order to solve the problem instead of targeting the least culpable in the chain of events"

Seems to me they're slapping a Band-Aid on the problem instead of amputating the whole gangrenous tentacles where it all started.







Leroy
I am glad to see that some people on here can actually disagree while remaining civil and not resorting to wild proclamations based purely on fantasy absent of fact. Believe me, I can sympathize with those that assume the worst about someone charged with a crime. Who didn't think OJ killed his wife or The Gloved One molested kids even after their acquittals? I still think they both committed those crimes to this day. But that does not mean that I favor changes to the legal system regarding the high burden of proof resting solely on the state or innocence until guilt is proven. And I also value freedom more than security. I'm sure we could pass many more laws protecting ALL Americans from just about anything that can be dreamed up, but who would want to live in such a country? Personally, I'll take freedom and all the risks that accompany it.

Underage porn star
A few years ago the LA district attorney discovered a girl using the screen name "Traci Lords" had performed sex acts in pornographic movies when she was 16 or 17 despite the law making such activity illegal for persons younger than 18.

It seems Miss Lords had shown the various porn producers a driver's license and a passport, both giving her age as 18. The DA decided not to prosecute the producers, the movie distributors, and the owners and operators of the many theaters and video stores showing, selling, or renting movies with Lords. I agree with the DA's use of "prosecutorial discretion," but I gather many of those commenting in this chain would believe all of these miscreants deserved lengthy sentences.

I might also add that the theaters and video stores withdrew the Lords movies, tapes, and DVDs from their stocks. They were punished financially with the loss of perhaps $millions.

False Represention
MoSwas71331-

I agree with the district Attorney, It is not like the producers, and industry did anything illegal, when the woman decevied them with false I.D. But I disagree with the others when they conclude that a man with hundreds of child pron pic's is not guilty of crime. Most of the time these people are crying out for help even if we don't or they don't reconize it. Better to get them away from children than wait for the act to happen. We as responsible adults and the leagal system should put barriers and mental help for one's whom are definatly in need of help.

Kathy
Nice to see that Kathy has decided to lend her poor grammar, spelling, and less than lucid arguments to this debate.

I really want to know why mr Kilpatrick
chose to highlight THIS CASE?

There are dozens of 'miscarriages of justice.'

WHY THIS ONE?

Personal reason, sir???

Filing System and Images
MOSwas71331 writes:

("Elaborate filing system?" By age of child and act depicted? Or did he just have a dozen folders named for the dates he downloaded the pics or the websites he found them on? Most people don't put thousands of pictures in one folder, but instead organize them in some manner.)

If you research the case, you'll discover that not all the pictures were on his computer. Some were printed materials. (Hey, a hard drive isn't that portable, ya know? I mean, what if you need a quick fix while in line at the grocery checkout?) And some were videos. He had filing systems for all his various forms of kiddie porn.

Mr. Berger was 51 years old when indicted. He was a history teacher. I can't think of any reasonable argument whereby he could claim ignorance of the law against possessing child porn. And now he's whining that the sentence is too harsh? If you are going to willfully violate the law, it behooves you to learn what the penalties are.

puftwaffe...
If you can get 200 years for just having the stuff on your computer (in AZ), what do you think the sentence for producing them will be?
Don't mistake me. I agree with you (about the free society). However the deterrent factor concerning Arizona laws cannot be forgotten.
Seeing Mr. Berger get 200 years for just downloading this stuff will hopefully cast a shadow of fear on those producing this crap.
I work in computer forensics as a contractor for a west coast PD. I know the law. Even if it's free it's still a crime, and until the laws change (hope not) that's the way it is.
The bright side is that they catch these guys, often.
But they don't make the news.
I think Mr. Kilpatrick was mystified by the 200 year sentence and rode the wrong horse to town.

Lazlo
The deterrent effect of any law and its associated punishment does not in and of itself justify the law's existence or the severity of its punishment. A punishment of 20 years for speeding would certainly deter would-be speeders, but no one would agree that the punishment fits the crime. The problem with this issue is that the subjects are odious enough that no one really cares to examine whether or not their sentences are truly fair. And again, I have never attempted to claim that simple possession is not illegal in any state as far as I am aware. I also think that high profile prosecutions and severe punishments for several PRODUCERS of this filth will go a lot further toward the reduction of such material than squashing the smallest of the fish in the pond to make a point.

puftwaffe
puftwaffe writes: Thursday, September, 21, 2006 11:29 AM

"But material obtained by an individual freely does NOT add to the demand for material and may even lessen such demand. Someone who can get something for free is less likely to want to buy it. I think a legitimate argument can be made that possession of freely obtained material (not created, bought or sold) does not hurt anyone or contribute in any way to the child pornography industry. As such, i don't believe that mere possession should be criminal

puftwaffe is completely wrong about this. It absolutely DOES contribute to the child porn industry.

These guys TRADE pics. So if I want your pics, I better go make some pics for you. Get it?

sloopy
Your notion that someone creates child pornography (not for profit) ONLY for the purpose of having material to trade is completely without merit. There are only two types of people that create such images, those who want a monetary return and those who want such images for themselves. The desire to record these activities and gain gratification from them later is what causes the crime in the first place. The fact that they may trade those images later (even for free) is irrelevant to the issue of free trading creating demand. Only FOR profit images are created with the consumer in mind.

Mr. Kilpatrick is Right On!
This has to be the most extreme example of all the ridiculous cases of child pornography prosecutions that I've ever heard about. In our zeal to protect children from predators, I fear that we, as a society, have taken leave of our collective common sense! This is almost as idiotic as that federal law makes fantasy stories about child molestation (which include only fictional children) a felony to possess.

Child abuse, exploitation, and molestation are serious crimes and I believe the perpetrators of such crimes should be given stiff sentences. However, as repulsive and vile as child pornography is, I've have never believed that simple possession of it, without having created, distributed, and/or purchased it, should be a criminal offense. No one has ever been able to explain to me how that kind of simple possession is actually hurting a child or contributing to that kind of activity in any way, especially when the accused possessor has never actually harmed anyone. Could it be that the thought police are alive and well?

Besides, I can see situations in which innocent people who might accidentally happen across some of this stuff on the Internet could find themselves in big trouble with the law. Suppose one were searching for legal "adult" entertainment or even foreign cult movies. One never knows what kind of material could be the returned as a result of such a search. That's why I am against Attorney General Alberto Gonzales' request for legislation requiring ISPs to maintain logs of their customers' Internet activities. I believe that such tracking should only be done on individuals for whom probable cause has been established for criminal activities such as the creation, distribution, and/or purchasing of child pornography.

Thank you, Mr. Kilpatrick, for pointing out such a ridiculous sentence and thanks for injecting some common sense into the argument. In a world gone mad, we need people like you more then ever!


Follow-up
And don't come back and ask, "but what if he trades the stuff?" I included distribution in my list of exceptions. Trading is a form of distribution.

puftwaffe
puftwaffe writes:
sloopy
"Your notion that someone creates child pornography (not for profit) ONLY for the purpose of having material to trade is completely without merit."

I'm sorry you chose to think so. But it happens to be a fact. They started to do this to GET AROUND the laws about doing it for profit, and they have OPENLY said so on websites that have been monitored. Hence, new laws that made possession illegal. Your opinion doesn't really do much to change this reality.

puftwaffe writes:
"The desire to record these activities and gain gratification from them later is what causes the crime in the first place."

Certainly. So what? How does this change anything. It. Is. A. Crime.

I don't get what you don't understand about that and I REALLY don't understand why you have a problem with the fact that it HAS been made illegal.

4dtvman
4dtvman writes:
"Could it be that the thought police are alive and well?"

Calling this a 'thought crime' doesn't make it so. You and puftwaffe are free to think whatever you want, to your little hearts desires.

This is not that difficult to comprehend. The only 'thought police' we have in this country are those on the left. They have successfully criminalized thoughts through 'hate-crime' legislation, much to my dismay.

In this case, it is clearly NOT the thought that has been legislated against. Try thinking about child-porn an see if the police come after you. No? Wow. I guess you guys were wrong about that. POSSESSION has been criminalized. It's not that hard to comprehend.

And this straw-man argument about 'what if I accidently stray on to it on the internet' is weak. As soon as we see someone charged where that is even a possibility, then feel free to argue about it. Until then, let's debate the FACTS and what HAS happened.

sloopy
Since you missed the point entirely, I will restate. Those who create such images for other than commercial reasons ALL do so to obtain personal gratification from those images. Whether they then elect to trade them later is immaterial. If these same people are unable to freely trade these images, that will in NO way diminish their desire to create them for their own personal pleasure. And NO ONE creates the images for the SOLE PURPOSE of distributing them freely, therefore the FREE distribution of images has NO impact on the production of such non-commercial images. And I really don't care that you fail to understand the argument just as I really don't care if someone fails to understand why seat belt laws should not exist.

puftwaffe
puftwaffe writes:
"Since you missed the point entirely, I will restate."

Debunking your statement qualifies as 'missing the point entirely' with a lot of liberals these days. But, unfortunately for you, that doesn't make it true, anymore than it made the original statement true. (I am, I admit, assuming you are a liberal as the only positions you have taken on this site align that way)


puftwaffe writes:
"Those who create such images for other than commercial reasons ALL do so to obtain personal gratification from those images."

I would agree with that, certainly, though I'd add that those who create such images for commercial reasons do so to obtain personal gratification, too.

"Whether they then elect to trade them later is immaterial."

1)Maybe in your world. Not in mine. Are you saying it would be okay with you if a such a picture of your child was recreated time and again, and put into circulation? I'm not suggesting (necessarily) that you would be okay with the event itself happening to a child of yours, but...once it did and was over with, for that picture to be transmitted on the internet and by other means forever more? It wouldn't bother you a bit? It wouldn't bother the child?

2)How can it be immaterial? It is against the law.

I think what you are really saying is that you think it should not be against the law. Fortunately, most of America does not agree with you. In Arizona, for instance it IS illegal. From the article above: " distributing, exhibiting, receiving, selling, purchasing, electronically transmitting or even "exchanging" pornographic images, all of which the Arizona law forbids."


puftwaffe writes:
"If these same people are unable to freely trade these images, that will in NO way diminish their desire to create them for their own personal pleasure."

So What?

puftwaffe writes:
"And NO ONE creates the images for the SOLE PURPOSE of distributing them freely, therefore the FREE distribution of images has NO impact on the production of such non-commercial images."

WHAT? Because exhanging them isn't the SOLE purpose, you leap to the conclusion that it can have NO impact on the production? That's quite a leap and totally insupportable.

NO ONE creates the images for the SOLE PURPOSE of profit either, as it requires an act that no healthy person could commit. So what?

puftwaffe writes:
"And I really don't care that you fail to understand the argument just as I really don't care if someone fails to understand why seat belt laws should not exist."


And I am relieved that you are in a minority in thinking that exchanging, possessing and receiving child pornography is okay.

sloopy
I have never ONCE argued that mere possession or free trading are not currently illegal. The entire point of this argument is that such acts DO NOT contribute to the illegal acts being committed in the creation, purchase or sale of the images in question. You are free to disagree, but just because you don't like the theory does not make it "totally unsupportable". Please provide a detailed explanation if you desire to refute the basic foundation of supply and demand economics. Before closing, I will give you a perfectly accurate analogy. A thief commits a robbery either for profit, for personal gain in terms of the items stolen, or merely the rush of committing the crime. If, once the theft has been committed, he then decides to give the stolen articles away, the mere fact that someone exists that will take the items IN NO WAY encourages the original criminal act or subsequent acts. THAT is the point that you can't seem to wrap your brain around in this example or the subject of this article. And once again, spare us the "your argument doesn't hold up because I say so" response.

puftwaffe
puftwaffe writes:
"I have never ONCE argued that mere possession or free trading are not currently illegal."

No, and I didn't say that you have said that.

puftwaffe writes: (11:29 AM 9/21/060
"I think a legitimate argument can be made that possession of freely obtained material (not created, bought or sold) does not hurt anyone.."

As I said, "I think what you are really saying is that you think it should not be against the law."

puftwaffe writes:
"The entire point of this argument is that such acts DO NOT contribute to the illegal acts being committed in the creation, purchase or sale of the images in question."

You then suggest that I should provide a detailed analysis...

Why?

A) What's your point? You have yet to say it, or agree with my conclusion of your point. You think this should NOT be illegal?

B)I have already explained to you (twice) why your statement is incorrect and you have made no attempt to refute that. You just continue to repeat your belief. Why don't you attempt to show how I am wrong???? Just stating your belief proves nothing other than just that: it is your belief. Refute what I said to prove you wrong or quit repeating it to me.

As far as your analogy goes, I find it to be flawed in a very basic way. You said:
"..the mere fact that someone exists that will take the items IN NO WAY encourages the original criminal act or subsequent acts."

How many boyfriends or potential boyfriends have wooed girls with stolen goods? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? After she takes that first gift, does this not encourage him to go get more for her? I can think of a dozen other reasons as well. Do you need me to state another situation in which your analogy is torn to shreds?

WHY do you think the only motive for human behavior is money? This ASTOUNDS me. If that were true, why would we do anything BUT chase money? If you haven't noticed most people spend less than a third of their time pursuing money. Do they hibernate the rest of the time?

"puftwaffe writes:
THAT is the point that you can't seem to wrap your brain around in this example or the subject of this article. And once again, spare us the "your argument doesn't hold up because I say so" response."

No, I can't wrap my brain around it. I HAVE given examples proving your thesis wrong. As I said, your repeating it does not prove it.
You have not responded to MY points in any way other than to repeat YOUR points. I have SHOWN how YOUR points are WRONG. So don't tell me to spare us the "your argument doesn't hold up because I say so response. That applies to YOU, not ME.

IF you are referring to my response 'So What?' to the following statement, please let me clarify.

puftwaffe writes:
"If these same people are unable to freely trade these images, that will in NO way diminish their desire to create them for their own personal pleasure."


Ok, I won't say so what this time. Try this:

What's your point? What does that have to do with anything?

sloopy
You have provided no such justification (in terms of fact or detailed logical explanation) for your disagreement with my argument other than to proclaim it not valid because you don't like it. And since you continue to demonstrate that you lack the intellect to participate in this debate by repeating "what's the point", I am no longer going to waste my time with you. Better luck making coherent arguments supported with fact and logic in your next exchange of posts with someone else.

puffwaffe
nice point by point rebutal there!

Protect the INNOCENT
Mr. Kilpatrick minimizes the severity of the crime by merely saying "dirty pictures." Why not the truth? Why not say "Child Pornography" right up front?

The truth is that the real victims here are the children in those photographs. It would be one thing to happen across a picture, but to purposefully collect over time indicates more than something that "never hurt anyone." How about each and every one of the kids in the pictures? Did not Berger's very act of hoarding the pictures contribute to the sick industry of child pornography, however slight?

Throw the book at the s.o.b. If it protects ONE SINGLE child then it is justified.

Period.
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