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Wednesday, October 10, 2007
Jacob Sullum :: Townhall.com Columnist
Anti-Tobacco Crusaders Boldly Go into Smokers' Homes
by Jacob Sullum
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During Prohibition, making and selling liquor was illegal, but drinking it was not. With tobacco, we are moving toward the opposite situation, where it will be legal to make and sell cigarettes but not to smoke them.

A smoking ban recently approved by the city council of Belmont, Calif., a town halfway between San Jose and San Francisco, is so sweeping that saying where it does not apply is easier than saying where it does. Smoking will still be allowed in tobacco shops, in automobiles, in some hotel rooms, in private residences that do not share a floor or ceiling with other private residences, and on streets and sidewalks, assuming you can find a spot that is not within 20 feet of a smoke-free location.

That may be hard, since Belmont's smoke-free areas include not only buildings open to the public but outdoor locations where people wait, such as ATM lines and bus stops, or work, such as construction sites and restaurant patios. But a smoker who despairs of finding an outdoor area where smoking is allowed can still light up even if he does not own a car and is unlucky enough to live in an apartment or condominium. He just has to land a role in a theatrical production "where smoking is an integral part of the story."

Meanwhile, the Los Angeles suburb that dubbed itself "Clean Air Calabasas" when it was leading the smoke-free march into the great outdoors is considering an extension of its ordinance that would cover apartments. Even if your landlord doesn't care whether you smoke, Clean Air Calabasas does.

The official justification for these ever-more-intrusive smoking bans is that the slightest whiff of secondhand smoke poses an intolerable hazard. The Belmont ordinance claims tobacco smoke is "extremely dangerous," regardless of dose, and warns that even "exposure to outdoor secondhand smoke may present a hazard under certain conditions of wind and smoker proximity."

Predictably, the ordinance cites former Surgeon General Richard Carmona's assertion that "there is no risk-free level of secondhand smoke exposure." But this pseudoscientific leap of faith amounts to saying that every little bit hurts, even if the damage can't be measured.

Epidemiological studies generally find that adults who live with smokers for decades are slightly more likely to get lung cancer and heart disease. The difference is so small that it's hard to say whether it signifies a causal relationship. There is also evidence that very young children of smokers are more prone to earaches and lower respiratory infections.

What do these studies of prolonged, relatively intense exposure prove about a little smoke seeping under the door of your apartment or wafting your way on the street? Absolutely nothing.

But the politicians who take the misleading statements of public-health officials like Carmona and run with them cannot be bothered by the facts. New York Assemblywoman Sandra Galef (D-Ossining), who wants to ban smoking on playgrounds, recently told Newsday that "the scientific reports say that secondhand smoke has as much of a negative effect on your health as smoking directly."

Got that, kids? If your parents smoke, you might as well start smoking yourself; the health effects won't be any worse.

One of Galef's colleagues, Assemblyman Ivan Lafayette (D-Queens), said lighting up around children is worse than physical abuse. "They're both horrible things," Lafayette averred, "but one is going to kill the child."

As those remarks suggest, the next rationale for banning smoking in private residences may be child protection, which will allow the government to go after smokers in detached homes as well as apartments. Already several state and local jurisdictions have banned smoking in cars carrying minors.

Such laws raise the question of why legislators are ignoring the setting in which the vast majority of children's exposure to secondhand smoke occurs. Now that anti-smoking crusaders have crossed the threshold into people's homes, they are not likely to turn back.

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Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason magazine and a contributing columnist on Townhall.com.
 
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Smoking Bans
I am so fed up with all the hype about the dangers of second hand cigarette smoke. Yet no one comments that charcoal barbeques, wood burning fireplaces, campfires, and automobile fumes are every bit as carcinogenic. Personnally, I would rather sit next to a smoker at a sporting function than a drinker. Most smokers go out of their way to be courteous to others unlike a drinker who is more likely to become obnoxious as the level of consumption increases. The effects of second hand drinking can be far worse and immediate; just ask an abused spouse or the surviving family of a drunk driving accident that killed their loved ones. How paranoid our society has become.
Caroline Allen

Noelegy - - -
I just wanted to tell you that your "fish-out-of-water gape" remark made my day!

I'm still chuckling - - -

To Tinsldr2
Now that it's getting cooler, the local miscreants are trying to expend their rockets before winter socks them in and they can't drag them over the hills. Fortunately, they seem to have trouble hitting even the larger FOBs...

To Wisenn
"Smokers have no right to smoke. A nonsmoker's right to clean air trumps the smoker's right to pollute it. This is just fact. Deal with it."

Drivers have no right to drive. None. A pedestrian's right to clean air trumps the driver's right to pollute it. That is just fact. Deal with it.

"Smokers are pathetic addicts. I feel sorry for them. Besides, they really stink. I mean BAD. I can tell if I'm standing next to a smoker EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT SMOKING. Their clothes and hair reek. And they're not even aware of it. Like I said, they are pathetic losers."

Drivers are pathetically lazy. I feel sorry for them; they aren't even willing to walk three blocks to the post office. Besides, they really stink. Their hands and clothing reek of gasoline and their hair of exhaust. And they're not even aware of it. As I said, they are pathetic losers.


To Wisenn
"You subscribe to the moronic argument that if there are 100 toxins out there, we have to get rid of all of them or none of them. That's stupid. Reducing the number to 99 is a good thing. It's better to have 99 toxins instead of 100."

Better to have 98 than 99. We MUST outlaw exhaust fumes.
Better to have 97 than 98. We MUST outlaw charcoal smoke.
Better to have 96 than 97. We MUST outlaw methane.
Better to have 95 than 96. We MUST outlaw...

Well, you get the picture. By your argument, there is every bit as much reason to ban 99 other toxins as there is to enact this ban. So get your car away from my public sidewalk.

Why single out tobacco smoke? Simple. It's a case of attempting to legislate morality. Smoking is one of the few 'sins' that many people can admit. Anything to reduce this 'sin', ANYTHING AT ALL, is appropriate to them.
Problem is, next time it might be YOUR pet habit that draws their ire.

"Please stop being stupid."

I forgive you.

Outdoor Smoke
Indoor smoke causes health risks in others, duh thats common sense (cited sources in my last post). I am not a nanny state person. I believe a business owner, to include a landlord, should have right to be smoker or smoke free. Some common sense in public places that we must share, (airlines, buses, government offices etc)would say no smoking in those places.
Yesterday evening, after a mortar attack on my base, I sat outside my trailer and smoked a fine Gurkha Cigar. At that moment I wasn't really concerned about smoking or second hand smoke. There are many things in life to worry about that are much more deadly. If outdoor smoke bothers you, move over ten feet.
Government must stop people from hurting each other by force or fraud. IF you smoke where I MUST breathe it thats FORCE. If you smoke in a rental apartment, bar, restaurant, outdoors, etc and I CHOOSE to stay that is neither Force nor Fraud and government needs to get its nose out.
Good post earlier ANNE, give people informed choices and then let them and the market decide.

Indoor second hand smoke
QUOTE "Secondhand smoke dramatically increases the risk of heart disease and lung cancer in nonsmokers and can be controlled only by making indoor spaces smoke-free, according to a comprehensive report issued yesterday by U.S. Surgeon General Richard H. Carmona.

"The health effects of secondhand smoke exposure are more pervasive than we previously thought," Carmona said. "The scientific evidence is now indisputable: Secondhand smoke is not a mere annoyance. It is a serious health hazard that can lead to disease and premature death in children and nonsmoking adults."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/0 6/27/AR2006062700710.html
also http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35422


to BrianR
"Hey, you non-smokers who think your right to air supecedes anyone else's. The air belongs to everyone equally, and we all have an equal right to burn legal substances that put smoke into the air."

Smokers have no right to smoke. A nonsmoker's right to clean air trumps the smoker's right to pollute it. This is just fact. Deal with it.

Smokers are pathetic addicts. I feel sorry for them. Besides, they really stink. I mean BAD. I can tell if I'm standing next to a smoker EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT SMOKING. Their clothes and hair reek. And they're not even aware of it. Like I said, they are pathetic losers.

Tallil2long
Tallil2long writes: "Wonder what level of methane inhalation is safe? Might have to ban breaking wind. Better ban cows, too. And moose."

You subscribe to the moronic argument that if there are 100 toxins out there, we have to get rid of all of them or none of them. That's stupid.

Reducing the number to 99 is a good thing. It's better to have 99 toxins instead of 100.

Please stop being stupid.

to talent scout
"First off, you will make no rules for my home."

Rules have already been made for your home. If you're in an apartment, you can't play loud music at 3 AM. And now or in the near future, there will be a new rule for your apartment: No smoking. Whether you like it or not.

"Not that I smoke, but this is way beyond the right of government to use force with a legal substance."

It is well within the right of the government to regulate legal activities in your home. See above example about loud music.

The whole debate really is pretty stupid
Why should anyone have to be subjected to a constant stink from their neighbors? If your neighbor's septic tank was leaking onto your property, would you have no right to complain? If you're both only renting the property, then the ground belongs to neither of you. Can't you see that to many of us, the smell of cigarettes is just as bad?

How about if the toilet from the apartment above was leaking through the roof? How can you not understand that invading the air I have to breathe is not the same as if you choose to be overweight or drink too much?

Uncle Sam is becoming...
Aunt Samantha??? It is easy for non-smokers to feel self righteous about smoking bans, but that is really not what this is about.

The much more lethal danger here is the government coming into the personal lives of private citizens. Maybe you don't believe that they will be coming after your personal choice about something next?

Think again. When is an inch ever enough for control freaks (Nanny State)?

This whole thing is just stupid!

This is NOT about second hand smoke, or who gets to smoke where, etc.

This IS about governments.. city, state, and federal governments controlling out lives...

Now, I don't even mind "laws" that mandate a restaurant or even an apt. or condo, etc., make it known that it is a "Smoking" or "Non-Smoking" facility. If nothing else, it provides people with making informed choices.

But beyond that, the government has no right infringing!


And, by the way, how is it that the government thinks it can tell us when and where we can't SMOKE, but it's perfectly okay to end the life of an unborn child?

Just a little irony there?????



BrianR
I have a better ideal, I suggest that while I smoke, don’t breathe!

HUNTER 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Sarah
That is plain bullcrap, central air does not mean you get air from other apartments.

HUNTER 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Hey, you non-smokers
who think your right to air supecedes anyone else's.

Grab an oxygen tank and lug it around with you.

The air belongs to everyone equally, and we all have an equal right to burn legal substances that put smoke into the air.

I don't particularly like the smell of liberalism, either. It smells like unwashed armpits and Birkenstocks.


his return key, over and over
Just read

proffate writes: Wednesday, October, 10, 2007 2:09 PM

A rather long comment, but isn't it easy to read since he had the sense to use his return key, over and over.

Thanks a lot proffate, I just hope others will follow your example.

Whats really stupid
is forcing sick vets who are ambulatory to go outside and smoke in a little glassed in box of
a porch..roasting in summer and freezing in winter. And VA doctors chewing him out for smoking when he was dying of cancer (Agent Orange???) and heart disease.

Conservative Knight
You're right, there's a personal responsibility
factor, I'm not saying there isn't. Maybe she didn't know it was a building wide AC system, I certainly wouldn't have known it. I'm not a smoker, my husband quit 35 years ago after 13 yrs beginning when he was in the Navy.
I'm very aware of the different factors that contribute to asthma having lived with it for 17 years, watching my grandson fight off death at least once a year. That's what I meant by snarky, unless he's lived through it, watching someone you love fight for life he was out of line. Our family does take responsibility for his health and monitor his circumstances when away from home..not babying him, he lives a pretty normal life. He was 10 wks premature,
lungs collapsed in his first week, one twice,
heart injected to keep it beating etc., we literally prayed him through his first week.
I resent the infringement of our individual rights by the NannyNazi's (or should I say, Nanny's Nazi's), they have no right to dictate
to businesses whether they should or shouldn't
allow smoking. I prefer restaurants to be smoke free but if I enter one that isn't or has smoking areas, that's my responsibility. I don't
however think I should be subjected to smoking
while in an enclosed jury room as I once was which resulted in a flaming case of bronchitis.

Conservative Knight
I agree, if she indeed didn't ask, then yes it is her responsibility, but the following posts
were just as snarky.
I've never smoked, my husband quit 35 years ago after smoking for 13 yrs. began in the Navy.
I know there are other causes for Asthma, as I previously noted, I've lived with it for 17 years. My grandson was 10 weeks premature, his lungs collapsed within days of his birth, and one a second time. We literally prayed him through his first week of life. He's faced death on a yearly basis since then, his parents have wisely allowed him to live a normal life.
I'm not an anti smoking crusader, my husbands hometown has gone through the NannyNazi's crusade which includes bars, restaurants and everything in between except private homes although I have heard a whisper of no smoking in cars with children. I strongly disagree with
government entities dictating to Americans.
One thing about that city, there was a referendum, and the crusaders that won were from
the higher income areas of the city, and the opposition was from the lower, and middle income.
Another thing, these goody two shoes given their social position would deem it beneath them to
enter one of the proscribed establishments..they'd be slumming but they
decided they know best. It didn't affect me or my husband, we don't go to bars, but we support the rights of those in business to make their own decisions.

Smoking
As usual these anti smokers don't pay any attention to facts.There is no harm in second hand smoke.Show me a death certificate that says death caused by smoking.As for 400,000 death per year from smoking.They get that statistic by deception.When you put down on a medical statement that you smoked 40 years ago regardless of the fact that you quit 40 years ago you are counted as being one of these 400,000.I do not smoke,but for the last 35 years we go to a restaurant that allows smoking in every area.Don't try to go inti this place after 5 as you won't find a seat.We allow our children to smoke in our house even though we don't smoke.This is just another example of over zealous people imposing their views on others.For those people that don't like restaurants that allow smoking.Start your own place.

Personal Responsibility
I moved to "Flowering Fields Estates" and have suffered greatly from my severe allergic reaction to pollen. We need a law to prevent my insensitive neighbors from tending gardens or planting flowers. Don't they realize that poor planning on my part constitutes an emergency on theirs?!

Sarcasm…

http://klintons.com

Noelegy
I'm glad to see that the people of your town have a some common sense; I do believe that within the next 10 years (or less) you will start to see a gradual erosion of that freedom.

It will start in the form of higher taxes, to discourage children, then you will see fewer and fewer liquor licenses issued, then 'alcohol free zones' i.e.; no sales permitted with in 1000 feet of a school, playground, park or church, again for the children, next only 1 six pack may be purchased at a time, then only one six-pack per day this can be easily done by scanning your drivers license into a state wide data bank.

Why not? The technology is there, and certainly the nanny state sentiment is there.

PS
The resolution passed in my town. You can now buy beer and wine at the local Albertsons. I guess the people decided what they wanted, and spoke up about it.

My comments on Tobacco, etc.
Oh! I just love it as to how this issue shows in reality so much ignorance as I read the comments. Just keep comming, and the more I will enjoy reading them. I posted my previous comments simply because of my great respect for this Country, especially, as a legal immigrant and soon after, as the laws allowed, becoming a Staunch Conservative Christian Republican, who entered the country obeying every dot of the laws, including submitting a chest Xray. When, me, my wife and little Heidi of 2 years arrived, we had a hard time believing that such a Country existed. From the very beginning we determined to learn the language as quickly as possible so as to enjoy the blessings this country provided. However, what I said before will stand, for the sake of humanity, including the unborn. Yes, America is now the mass grave of 40 - 50 million of unborn, and that is an evil that developed after we arrived. Yes, there is the God of America, s the pledge states! Are you sure he is now pleased with America? Yes, I have driving all over this nation and yet I have to get the first ticket for traffic violation. We never ever took a penny of welfare, when at first it was rough, barely making it. So, I hear sometimes it said: "Love America or leave it! Yet, many of those America lovers do not respect the laws of the land, otherwise there would now not be up to 38 million of illegals roaming the street of America, as some account indicates. I rather respect the laws of the land and let this love thing care by or for itself. Have a good laugh, after you read this!

Never been a smoker, but...
I recognize an attempt at re-enacting Prohibition when I see one! This is a ridiculous quest and the decision whether or not to allow smoking in businesses should be up to the owner of the business. That way, it is up to the patrons to decide whether they wish to patronize that business. As others said, let the market decide.

I get so tired of the "think of the children" argument being trotted out when it's really not that appropriate. Several years ago, the town where I live voted on whether to go "damp" (to allow sale of beer and wine) in order to compete with the Wal-Mart in the next town that otherwise was going to get all the revenue. I voted for the resolution. A woman went door-to-door with a petition against the resolution, and when I told her that I did not wish to sign it, she told me to think of the children.

I looked her in the eye and told her that children can't buy alcohol anyway. It's against the law. She gave me the fish-out-of-water gape for a moment and then thanked me and went on her way.

I heard that same canard in a news segment about a local Hooters restaurant that had finally gotten its liquor license after two and a half years of GIVING beer away. They interviewed a woman who did not agree with Hooters being able to sell alcohol, and her objection was on the basis of "families."

All right now, show of hands, who in their right mind would ever think of Hooters as a "family" restaurant anyway?

Frog Boiling
You've all heard the expression, right?

Well if you haven't, I'll explain it now.

Delicacy: Boiled Frog

You want to cook the frog by boiling. You don't want to cook a dead frog (I forget why).

But you can not throw a live frog into a pot of boiling water. The heat will activate all its nerve endings, causing searing pain, and the frog will immediately jump out, probably faster than you can throw the lid over the pot.

So what you do is drop the frog into a pot of cold water. Turn on the heat. Slowly, slowly, one degree at a time, raise the temperature.

At each increase in temperature, the frog will adjust, and continue sitting quietly. It will not notice that it is being boiled alive.

By the time the water reaches the boiling point, the frog will be dead and ready to eat.

Double edge
I wander what those people who gleefully support the trampling of the rights of others will say when the nanny state comes after one or more of their vices eg; fatty foods, alcohol, cars that can exceed 55mph. And it WILL happen because they have laid the foundation.

Look....
I don't care what you put into your system, just don't put it into mine. Do whatever you want, but don't harm me or mine. Do it wherever you want, but not where I am the owner. Respect, that's all that is required.

back in the 80s
The Surgeon General, Kook, determined that video games were harmful to your health.


Here's a news update: number one cause of death in the nation: being conceived. Conception has a 100 percent mortality rate.

Yes, let's inhibit and restrain the lives of the healthy on behalf of the crippled. The crippled should have to make no allowances for their own defects, the healthy ones must cripple their lifestyles to accommodate the crippled.

Think of it as evolution in action.

A question
Will illegal aliens be allowed to smoke wherever they want?

Another question:

For how many thousands of years did our ancestors inhale the smoke from burning just about any kind of plant matter they could burn? You know, for warmth. For forges. For building the future...

Teaparty
you call Airgun down for being Snarky to Sarah when her point was that she WASN"T told her apartment had communal AC.

Did she ask before leasing? When someone suffers from such a medical condition, it is their own responsibility to manage it and obtain the information necessary to do so. If she _did_ ask and the information was either kept from her or misinformation was given, then blame can be placed on the management that leased her the apartment. Otherwise, it is on her own head.

From her statement it sounded as if she was aware she had severe asthma when she moved in to the apartment. Many other airborne particulates which can cause an asthmatic reaction, from molds to household chemicals, can be transmitted through a communal air system.

How is it the responsibility of the smokers in the building, or the building management to somehow discern that she has a health problem? And why should it be their responsibility to ensure that she is not endangering her health by moving into an environment that is not apropriate for her? The condition is hers, the responsibility is hers.

In the spirit of full disclosure let me say that I do not smoke, nor does any member of my immediate family and we do not allow smoking in our home (my wife is highly allergic). However, we have no problem in allowing others to make their own choices.

And they just
keep on coming and coming after the rights of all of us. What will be next? I would like to take these commies and put them in two different garages.
1. with smokers
2. with running car
Now, smoker, light it up!
Now, car, start it up!
Shut both doors and see who dies first. Just keep on letting them take something away from us. Pretty soon, it will be something that you do.

Lotsa points....
Someone asked how such laws get passed. As a combatant in a city (Lubbock, Texas) where a smoking ban was passed, I can give you a blow-by-blow.

By California standards, it wasn't much of a ban. Bars and "sports grills" were exempted. Workplaces weren't. It took an extra year to decide on the definition of a sports grill.

Lubbock is a college town, and Texas Tech University exerts a great deal of influence. The University has an actual "Center for Tobacco Prevention and Control" on campus. I call it the Tobacco is Evil Department. It's director, one Donna Bacci, began the smoking ban initiative.

Originally, the City Council caved, enacting the ban by decree. We're a pretty feisty bunch down here and that didn't sit well. Led by the local Libertarian Party, a petition managed to get the issue put onto the ballot.

That's when money came into play. The Center for Tobacco Prevention and Control suddenly got a six-figure check from some California anti-smoking outfit (ASH, probably) and the propaganda battle was lost.

Naturally, it was "For the Children." A kid with asthma was put front and center to complain that he couldn't go into a bowling alley because of the smokers. It didn't help that President Bush gave the kid some sort of public service award.

Given the amount of false information that the public was fed, the election results were a foregone conclusion.

I have lots of problems with using individuals with asthma (or allergies to peanuts, shellfish, etc.) to determine public policy. It's the reverse of the "bubble boy" scenario, wherein the person is allowed to run free while everyone else is confined to bubbles.

Oh, and if you'd like to know the REAL non-evidence about secondhand smoke, it's here:

http://www.davehitt.com/facts/

Women in Government
"This is insane, and it is less about smoking than it is about controlling people. It is also about diminishing private property rights."

It is more silly than insane. And it's not about property rights as much as it is about governments power. Especially women's government power. Ever since women began being elected to city governments these type of "personal" laws, that tend to cross property boundaries, have proliferated. Women have lot of trouble differentiating between the public and private nature of human society and government. We are truly headed toward the "Nanny State" with "No More Hangers!"

Methane
Wonder what level of methane inhalation is safe? Might have to ban breaking wind. Better ban cows, too. And moose.

Hahahahaa, Tallil2!
Touche!


This is non-negotiable
carbondu5 writes: Wednesday, October, 10, 2007 1:29 PM
hey nanna
We'll keep our rules out of your home as long as you keep your cigarette smoke out of our homes.

Deal?
--------------

First off, you will make no rules for my home.
Secondly no one here is in your home to smoke.

Not that I smoke, but this is way beyond the right of government to use force with a legal substance.

Put it up for a vote if tobacco remains legal or not, and let it rest where it falls.
And stop with the nazi programs.

Courtesy demands all respect others with their smoking, and I have yet to meet a smoker who upon being asked to not smoke in confined areas be a belligerent.

It is uncommon use of force to act like the nazis in America.

On charcoal
Charcoal smoke is bad for your lungs. Keep the smoke from your barbecues out of my yard. Geez, there oughta be a law!

To carbondu5
There's no safe level of auto exhaust, either. I think I want to get your car banned from areas adjacent to my sidewalks.

Airgun
Your reply to Sarah was very snarky, her point was that she WASN"T told her apartment had communal AC. Unless you have suffered from Asthma you don't have a bloomin' clue as to how
difficult it is to breath. I have a mild form,
and if in an enclosed room I will get sick, I have a 17 yr. old grandson, whose life is literally on the line when exposed. Try being that snarky with his Kentucky born mother, whose family GREW tobacco, that girl doesn't take prisoners. My grandson has to take strong doses of prednisone when he's been exposed, prednisone isn't too good for the heart or mind, but if he wants to live he must take it whenever there's a severe attack.
Having said that, my Dad began smoking at age 10,
Camels and Lucky's, at age 48 diagnosed with Emphysema, age 69 killed, drowned in his own body fluids due to smoking.
BUT I don't believe ANY Nanny Nazi has the right to dictate to citizen or businesses. If I as a non-smoker decides to go into a business that's
allowing smoking then it's on me, I made the decision. The Nazi's P.C. "for the children" is odd since these same ones support murdering the unborn..I wouldn't be surprised if they hammered the mother for smoking while waiting for the abortion because it would harm the baby.

Conservative Moral Relativism
So let me get this straight. Conservatives think it's moral to endanger the lives of non smokers but it's immoral for two girls to get married to eachother?

Government
Keep your rules at my front walk. Leave me alone in my car, my yard, my home.
The government is sticking their nose into my business way too much.
They want to govern what we eat, whether or not we smoke,what we feed our kids. how we dress (eg helments)what we drive, what kind of light bulbs we use, and on and on. Be afraid, be very afraid!!

To lilly
Inhaling the smoke of burning polyester flags is harmful. Better ban flag-burning, eh?

The very idea of loss of life
Is without a doubt the most disingenuous
disingenuous argument of them all.

We all die
Today there will be more people killed on the highways than from terrorism.
People worry about hunters, malaria, bird flu, global warming, snake oil before they worry about traffic deaths.

The number one killer and preventable.
Yet no one is demanding autos and trucks held to 25 miles an hour.

And like lilly, compares nazi programs to stop lights.

H. D. Schmidt;
In one of your posts, you claim to be an immigrant. If I don't like a 'neighborhood', I will certainly move into a more desirable one within a short time. I've done it! Left the city for the burbs and am quite content. I am amazed that someone thought enough about the U.S. to want to leave their native country and become a citizen. It is a long process in becoming a citizen. Your posts shows your hatred of democracy and the U.S. in particular. So why go through the long process to become a citizen of a place you obviously thoathe? Maybe you should think about packing your bags and relocating to a less offensive place...any place that doesn't practice democracy should suit you just fine.

STOP IT ALL!!
Did any of you see Shep Smith, I think it was, talking to a Mayor of some stupid California City on Fox News? He sure did a good job of telling her that she better stay out of his house, and that he was sure that many people will want to stay out of her city.

He was really rough with her, I mean fair and balanced with her, as she spouted her Nazi scheme to control people.

For those of you who do smoke, wouldn’t you rather enjoy yourself for 65 to 70 years, rather than be harassed and tormented for 75 to 80 years?

I can imagine that some people really do think of the smell of smoke is at least 10% as disgusting as I find the smell of pig-slop alcohol to be disgusting. I don’t smoke, but I don’t believe you have a right to force smells I don’t like on me. So stop all alcohol, Mexican food, Chinese Food, and every kind of food except ham and eggs, and steak and potatoes. STOP IT ALL!!

I hate the smell, as much as you hate the smell of smoke, and that’s all that counts.


It's your computer, use it better
Well, maybe it’s because I first became interested in 1944 in the "pre-computer" business, and spent my pay-roll years helping put the men on the moon etc., but let’s make better use of the computers we have.

And here it is again, PLEASE!

Come on, commenters, use your return Key, over and over.

No one has time to read all this fascinating stuff in detail, so if the paragraphs are short, they can be scanned, if they are long, they should be, and are skipped.

a way to spend my time efficiently
This may be of no interest to some, but I have found a way to spend my time efficiently as I read TH. I use ATT Yahoo Mail, and your system may be much different, but maybe you can find a way to do this.

First I click “View in descending order.”

Then I place the name of the day (Monday, Tuesday, etc.) in the Find box, then click Previous.

The first comment is at the bottom of the page, but for each additional click, the next comment is available to read, scan, or ignore, at the top of the screen. It works well for me.

Just one click will take you from each comment to the next. Of course you can click at any spot in the column, and start from there.

lilly
Join Sarah in Arizona, and quit your self-centered whining.
If smoking somehow oppresses you, even at your age you need to grow up.
Society is not here to cater to your sensitivities, and the dangers of second hand smoke are wildly exaggerated.

Lilly
Do you believe that Zucchini squash is evidence of brain eating bacteria in canine feces?

lilly
Join Sarah in Arizona, and quit your self-centered whining.
If smoking somehow oppresses you, even at your age you need to grow up.
Society is not here to cater to your sensitivities, and the dangers of second hand smoke are wildly exaggerated.

lilly
There is NO scientific evidence that second hand smoke does anything. That is NONE lilly, otherwise known as ZERO.

Even you can't fumble around and misconstrue that. Anyone who says there is is a liar.

As for Newsweek, I wouldn't give a d*mn in H*ll for anything that pack of liars said either.

Phylo-
Just because you no longer insert the word "spew" into every sentence does not mean that you now make sense.

To All Who Oppose Smoking Bans
One question: Do you also believe that traffic lights are evidence of an oppressive Nazi state and that drivers should ignore them to make a libertarian point?

Questions for Stupid Liberals
What about The Tobacco Farmers who feed, clothe and house their families with money EARNED by selling their tobacco crop?

What about the cigarette factory workers who feed, clothe and house their families with money EARNED by processing said tobacco crop?

What gives you the right to ban a LEGAL substance?

Drunk Driving kills thousands of people every year, are you going to ban Alcohol? Are you going to ban Cars?

Who is more stupid, Robert or Phylo?

Ignorant-or lying,HD Schmidt
this homegrown industry murders around 400,000 Americans yearly plus leaving thousands of homes completely destroyed?
Back that up
Sarah, your right to vote infringes on my right to think.
Selfishness is not a virtue, and I used to ask before I lit up until they decided that the cig taxes I was paying (Which were already high enough to provide for the health coverage of two other people besides myself) needed to be raised 75 cents a pack more.
This means that my tax burden increased by $287.00 a year more than a non-smokers taxes.
An easier and far cheaper way to care for high-risk patients like you is to move all asthma sufferers to Arizona, declare the state a non-smoking state, and leave the rest of us alone.
I feel your pain, but will not be legally required to suffer it as well.

Never
will I allow the gubmint to dictate to me what I can or cannot do in my own home.This is the most insane law I've ever heard of.Look out,they'll be after your guns next!

Ignorant-or lying,HD Schmidt
this homegrown industry murders around 400,000 Americans yearly plus leaving thousands of homes completely destroyed?
Back that up
Sarah, your right to vote infringes on my right to think.
Selfishness is not a virtue, and I used to ask before I lit up until they decided that the cig taxes I was paying (Which were already high enough to provide for the health coverage of two other people besides myself) needed to be raised 75 cents a pack more.
This means that my tax burden increased by $287.00 a year more than a non-smokers taxes.
An easier and far cheaper way to care for high-risk patients like you is to move all asthma sufferers to Arizona, declare the state a non-smoking state, and leave the rest of us alone.
I feel your pain, but will not be legally required to suffer it as well.

Vic
See if you can find a copy of "Newsweek" August 13, 2007. It's the one with big letters on the front saying "Global Warming is a Hoax". The cover article details the huge (and successful) campaign by fossil-fuel-loving business to shape public opinion against global warming by creating an impression of scientific doubt. My point in mentioning this here is that their model for that campaign was the one waged by the tobacco industry. In fact, credible scientific opinion has long supported the position that second-hand smoke is harmful to those who breathe it.

Business has one goal: to make money and more money. It ruthlessly strikes down what stands in the way of that goal.

Is smoking not harmful? My son's mother-in-law died two weeks ago of emphysema. She had chain-smoked for decades. Her lung tissue was so damanged that it no longer functioned. She slowly choked to death and, at the end, not so slowly. This is not an easy way to go. Yes, smoking was her personal choice. But the family members who lived in her presence had to endure the same harmful elements, albeit in smaller quantities than she herself received. Smoking is a "personal choice" that inflicts one's choice upon others, and so it is a form of bullying. In any case, often those who must breathe tobacco-laden air have no choice; I grew up as the child of a mother who smoked constantly, so I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop, and I myself am not a smoker.

Addiction
Addicts are so predictable. They seek the most irrational arguments to cling to their addiction. Smoking makes you stink; then it makes you ugly; then it makes you sick; then it kills you. Any argument to the contrary is simply denial. If you smoke, you are really offensive. The smoke-free body reacts intensely to the presence of smoke. It is telling you that smoke is bad. Why not listen to the message. STOP SMOKING!

"I don't fart in your face. Don't smoke in my space." ©1998 Jerry J Mercer

Dosie-Doe, Change Partners and Swing
About fifty years ago the political right was up in arms because fluoridation of the public water supply was being considered as a way of discouraging tooth decay. The right's argument then was that since everybody needs water, it was wrong to impose a chemical, fluroride, even on those who did not want it. It was the left that said "it's OK to have this element everywhere in the water".

Now positions are switched. Many on the right now argue that it's OK for them to put tobacco particles in the air everyone must breathe because, well, because they want to. Those on the left are saying, "We should have some choice about what we breathe".

Just an observation.

CRY BABIES
You know and I know that if they shut down the Cigareet factories that the LIBSCUM/UNOINS would be blasting this Administration of all the unemployment that this has cost. I have had relatives who have died from Cancer and never smoked one lick. There seems to be allot of people who die of cancer and never smoked. The thing about second hand smoke was just for DUMBOCRAPS to make it a Political situation. Just wait until the elections get going you will have DUMBOCRAPS coming out of the walls about saving the Children just like they always do. If its for the children then who could bad mouth the program right. They aleady want to give everybody Free Health Care so who would quit if they get free treatment, another LIBSCUM ploy to control the IGNORANT HUMAN RACE as they call it.

Hmmm. Silly thought, but...
I wonder if helpfully giving a smoke to a needy...
white guy/black man/Jew/Hispanic person/gay/atheist/Muslim/lesbian/woman/whatever
...
could in the future be construed as a hate crime? After all, wouldn't it 'tend toward the destruction of the individual or group'?

You have no such right
Sarah writes: Wednesday, October, 10, 2007 11:13 AM
Amen!
I am tired of being subjected to cigarette smoke which I did not choose to inhale. I cannot help the fact that I have asthma, I am in great health otherwise. No one made them pick up a cigarette. Before I moved into my apartment, I was not informed of smokers in the building or the fact that it had a central air system. Now I leave my air conditioning off in 95 degree weather just so I can breathe.

I believe the government should be involved, because it exists to protect my right to life. The right to "pursue happiness" by smokers lighting up is not protected because it infringes upon my rights.
-----------------------

Your nose is not the standard for any mans rights.
Taking such a view would demand we all have equal rights to ban all smells we do not like.

Its called "Equal Protection under the Law"

M. Sederoff
When private businesses removed and did not replace their fuel tanks, and the independent gas retailers found out that the cost of cleaning up ground water far exceeded any rational investment causing them to close their doors, the independent wholesalers then followed. After that, the independent refineries that supplied the industry were bought by the majors. Shell absorbed Standard of Ohio in the Midwest, Chevron and Texaco merged, Exxon and BP divided up Mobil, Phillips and Conoco merged,etc. Today, the industry has become as concentrated as it was under Rockefeller's Standard Oil Trust. One can pretend that their is no collusion - but given the interlocking oil field and pipeline development agreements these companies have with each other - that's simply absurd. Free enterprise is gone. The EPA did what no one else could do - and in a much shorter period of time. And the environmentalists with their faulty science love it - but still hate big oil - which they made even bigger.

As far as taxes go
On cigarettes
There has always existed a excise tax.
There is no way to find out how much smokers have paid over the years, but it would no doubt pay for everyone on earth to have complete health care coverage.

But the fact is these taxes have gone into paying for more and more government and government employee benefits.
Then of course the lawyers who make out like the bandits they were when the Tobacco Companies were sued under Billy bob Klinton.

I am not for promoting cigarettes, I am for LIBERTY for all and hate for nazis.

I really think smokers should ban together and blow smoke in the officials face.

The ones who under handedly get such regulations passed as the City of Belmont

Anti-Smoker Campaign

I think that most of the comments above about control and Naziism fail to understand the true motivation of the anti-smoker people. This is simply the new racism.

There are many people who simply need an under-group (or race) to attack, especially when they can feel virtuous from their actions. When the civil rights movement removed much of their satisfaction from attacking blacks, they needed a new target -- and here we were.

The attacks are simply too emotional and unthinking to be based on health or even on enjoying power.

I have been enjoying Western society's self destruction since the 70's.

Cheers,
Ron

Band together
It's been coming for a long time -- a nationwide smoking ban seems inevitable in the Nanny State, especially if Hillary and her comrades assume power. I think smokers need to band together, maybe join forces with groups like the NRA, and fight back. Concerning a smoking ban in our homes -- what's become of a cornerstone of our nation: a man's home is his castle?


Amen!
I am tired of being subjected to cigarette smoke which I did not choose to inhale. I cannot help the fact that I have asthma, I am in great health otherwise. No one made them pick up a cigarette. Before I moved into my apartment, I was not informed of smokers in the building or the fact that it had a central air system. Now I leave my air conditioning off in 95 degree weather just so I can breathe.

I believe the government should be involved, because it exists to protect my right to life. The right to "pursue happiness" by smokers lighting up is not protected because it infringes upon my rights.

freedom?
The ONLY freedom being infringed in the case of smoking bans is the freedom of a business owner to determine what type of environment that he or she will provide for the customers. Bans on smoking in PUBLIC are a recognition that non-smokers have a RIGHT to not be subjected to conditions that they find to be disgusting (and possibly, though NOT likely, with negative health consequences). The "rights" of a smoker end when others are forced to tolerate the effects of their smoking. Again, I am not saying that people should not be allowed to smoke. On the contrary, anyone should be allowed to participate in ANY legal activity no matter how stupid and dangerous as long as it does not affect others. But this is clearly the basic principle of one person's rights ending where others' begin.

The Left's Agenda!
cat trapper....May I add:

10. All Blacks must vote Democratic.

11. Not use of the word "Christmas". "Winter Holiday" is just fine, however.

12. No restictions on immigration. Crinmals especially welcome.

13. Fox News, Talk Radio and TH must be stopped. MSM is the only proper news venue.


Nanny Laws
This is another case of the liberal "do-gooders"
gone wild. Another "nanny law" to take away more rights and freedom. When does it stop? When we kick these idiots out of office and take back our government! This is NOT about smoking. This is about power & control!

Nanny Laws & The Nazis
This is another case of the liberal "do-gooders"
gone wild. Another "nanny law" to take away more rights and freedom. When does it stop? When we kick these idiots out of office and take back our government! This is NOT about smoking. This is about power & control!

the LEft's agenda...
#1. You can't eat meat.

#2. You must not live in a green(wild life)zone.

#3. All citizens must live in an approved urban center or state registered and controlled organic farming community.

#4. No guns in Amerika.

#5. No hunting or fishing (see #1 and #4)

#6. No mention of God (or especially Christ)in public.

#7. You may not teach your child "absolute" truth or any religion unless it is approved by the state, i.e. evolution.

#8. Population control at all costs including mandatory abortions and euthanasia. The state will decide if you can have children and if so, how many.

#9. You may not participate in any event or habit which is deemed "un-healthy" by the officer of your state health benefit organization.

Declaration of War
You will never stop the minority from destroying your inalienable rights until you awaken the majority to rise up and stop it no matter what it takes.

In reality, smokers are fighting a lost cause because, in this case, they are the minority. Have you noticed how these fiends flip-flop on whom they protect and how they go about accomplishing their control?

This is really not about smoking, it is about absolute control and destruction of the Constitutional freedoms which are nearly all gone. We are systematically being duped by the 2-Party system because the elitists all "march to the same drummer."

Declaration of War
You will never stop the minority from destroying your inalienable rights until you awaken the majority to rise up and stop it no matter what it takes.

In reality, smokers are fighting a lost cause because, in this case, they are the minority. Have you noticed how these fiends flip-flop on whom they protect and how they go about accomplishing their control?

This is really not about smoking, it is about absolute control and destruction of the Constitutional freedoms which are nearly all gone. We are systematically being duped by the 2-Party system because the elitists all "march to the same drummer."

smoke
Tobacco smoke triggers my migraines. In the good ol' days I went home from work, sick as a dog, everynight.

Even so, I do not think the government has any business in this discussion, especially laws that are not voted on!

Melvin h.
sarcasm...but it brings up a interesting point. If these laws were effective then the advocates for smoking bans would be using them for leverage. however we don't see that we only see alarmist rhetoric.

Melvin: I am a smoker, have been for years. I go to my local watering hole for a couple of cold ones all the time. They just passed the ban here and the Pub that I frequent is smoking but the law states 21 and older only. Oh and BTW buisness is good.

The bottom line in this whole debate is that it should be left up to the owner of the buisness to establish the smoking status. Let the market determine.

Hmmmmmm...........
Couple of thoughts:

1) is really a correction: it is carbon MONOXIDE (CO), not carbon DIOXIDE (CO2), that is emitted from cars, trucks, etc.; animals and humans breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide, which trees take in to emit oxygen. (May be over-simplified, but had to use the Cliff's Notes version.)

2) As a non-smoker myself, I knew if I went into a bar, lounge, etc. if it was a smoking area or not; we in our house have had non-smoking inside for years, but accepted whatever the rules were at anyplace we went. The "second-hand smoke" argument is insane, especially where it regards kids; if that were true, adults would be dying far sooner than they are from smoking--why would it take 30-40-50+ years to die from smoking if an adult, but one puff of second-hand smoke, even from the other end of a bowling alley or (especially ridiculous) an outdoor playground kills a child? Get real.

3) And, "Iagree": The reason for your statement . . . is that, in reality, the number of places that allow smoking, such as bars, have shrunk (as in "closed", "gone out of business", etc.); plus the smokers don't have any place to go to light up that is public.
Just curious, "Iagree": Did you ever go to any bars, etc. where smoking was legal, and did you go there with your kid(s)?

Second hand Bull
I think we should have a law against second hand bull that comes from these anti-smoking advocates. And no I don't smoke.

Overlooked
the rates of non-smokers lung cancer has plunged to almost zero since these laws have been on the books.

Tobacco in Maryland
In Maryland our left wing governor wants to raise the cig tax $1 per pack to raise revenue for health benefits. That's really rich. They want to fund a health care project with money froom a very unhealthy habit.

This second hand smoke is more about control than health.

Money
No one has mentioned the real truth in the laws on a legal product. Cigerattes are a product that can be purchased legally. As with oil, the Government must have the taxed Dollars this money is in bucks bigger than the average"joe" can even imagine!!
I have a problem with smokes being a legal product and yet the regs as to how and when one can use them. I would agree, this is aform of Nazism!
The court house stairs revolt of the Smokers sounds like a winner to me!!

Govt: BUTT out!
I don't like indoor second-hand smoke, but I think it ought to be the prerogative of the restaurant owner, or the apartment landlord to gear his business the way he sees fit: let him decide if he wants to cater to smokers or anti-smokers, or if smoking (or the lack of it) is helping or hurting his business.

It's politically correct to gang up on (and tax the crp out of) smokers.
Personally, I will never vote for someone who votes or proposes to fund something by taxing tobacco. It's intellectually lazy and dishonest because it hits on people who aren't likely to speak up. I'm hoping that although they don't speak up, they do vote. (hear that Rick Perry?)

When they've taxed tobacco out of existance (legal existance), what next?


Wrong approach
As a non-smoker, I have thoroughly enjoyed the benefit in several states of being able to dine or have drinks in a smoke free environment. The smoke in some bars used to be so thick that my eyes would sting by the end of the evening, and obviously a "smoking section" in a restaurant does not magically contain said smoking. While I approve of the results of these laws, I also recognize that government has no place telling businesses what type of environment to provide for its customers (I do NOT have any problem with banning smoking on truly public property though). I think the real problem with these laws is that the focus is public health as related to secondhand smoke, a claim that is patently ridiculous. It should really be approached from a public nuisance angle since that's really what it is. I am all in favor of people being allowed to smoke as much as they would like, but only when I do not have to be confronted with it in a public setting, because for every anti-smoking "nazi" there is also a militant smoker that has no consideration for people around him or her when lighting up. And as far as the "child abuse" stretch for smoking parents, I'm not sure that's entirely baseless, but at the same time is certainly a frightening government intrusion to imagine.

H. D. Schmidt
"Do you have an answer for me Mr. Sullum?"

I have an answer for you. The issue lies in the middle of your rant "...murdering millions upon millions of mostly ignorant men, women".

You have a narcissistic, elitist attitude towards anyone who does not live as you think they should. What makes you think that just because someone smokes they are ignorant? Anyone who has not heard or read all the warnings about smoking today would have to have died 50 years ago! It's not ignorance! It's choice!

Sometimes people just chose to do what makes them happy regardless of the risk. That is their right as an adult. A concept that liberal fascists just can't grasp.

Every infringement (but 1) is necessary
The WHO performed a long-term study to determine the effects of second-hand smoke. The results showed NO statistically significant harm in second-hand smoke. This test never made the papers (it was bad news only for the anti-smoking nazis--and could have harmed the State's efforts to tax and ban the noxious weed).

Meanwhile, they're in our bathrooms, telling us to flush with 1.6 gallons; they're in our kitchens, telling us we're filling our water pitchers too quickly; they're in our cars, telling us not to smoke when children are present, or talk on cell phones, or use leaded gasoline, or drive without seat belts, and how fast is too fast. They banned DDT, for the birds (and killed millions with malaria). They've just fined a large American electric company for pollution that causes "acid rain" (been a long time since they've raised that bogus specter). In New York...well, you know. And of course, there's the ongoing effort to make taxes "fair," and spending "equitable" (the rich have more than they need, the poor deserve more than they have).

But the only infringement that frightens the American Left is George Bush's listening in--without judicial approval--to their conversations with overseas terrorists. THEY know what's important.

Eben
Very interesting. I was wondering about this a few days ago. The only filling stations in the area that I live in are Shell. I think there is one Marathon.

Remeber Texaco? Standard Oil? Where have they all gone? I hate Shell. Every time I go into one of their service stations, they are being manned by Middle Eastern men. They are probably sending all their profits to Al Qaeda. I would go somewhere else, but there are no others.

The only way
to combat this sort of totalitarian oppression is to ignore the law. Continue to live as you please, and if you get arrested, refuse to pay the fine. Go to jail and scream bloody murder while you are there.

Some of the conservative legal institutions such as the Alliance Defense Fund needs to press this issue because, as some have already stated, this is NOT about smoking, it is about the right of Americans to be free in their homes and their persons. If we lose this, nothing else matters.

Nannyism/Nazism
Nannyism in every form is little more than Nazism in practice. We now have some areas passing zero tolerance drinking laws. In sum, have a glass of wine at dinner and go to jail. Tolerance - which is the right hand of freedom - has been thrown out the door. Every action that the health police don't like is now under their control. And, it extends beyond merely what and when we consume whatever it is. Consider that a medical doctor who concludes that a specific non-FDA approved treatment that works in one country may work here, cannot promote it and profit by it without losing their license. Even speaking about it leads to harassment and potential loss of their license. Freedom of speech has been subverted. Underlying it all is pseudo-science. When the government used a study that they claimed stipulated that benzene in gasoline could cause cancer, they wrote environmental laws that dicated that all fuel tanks would be inspected and any contamination would have to be removed. Further, all would have to be eventually replaced with double wall tanks. The costs of cleanup destroyed most of the independent gasoline industry. 90% of the companies who at one time had tanks got rid of them. The number of retailers was cut in 1/2. The independent wholesalers disappeared, and the independent refineries were acquired by the majors. John D. Rockefeller would have been amazed, as the entire supply chain is now controlled by a few companies. 9 years after the onset of these laws, the EPA was forced to admit in court that the study was flawed - and there was no evidence to support their claim that benzene caused cancer.

And so it goes.

Notice
that the blame is placed on the consumer as opposed to the real culprits, the state legislature and the Revenue Dept.
-------------------------------------------------
"Laws already on the books prohibit people from bringing more than two cartons of smokes across the line on any one trip, and now David Remke with the state Revenue Department is warning Tennesseans that his staff plans on enforcing the often-ignored rule.

He said the state is out to protect its corner stores and tobacco shops.

"It's not fair to them that they've lost a lot of their business," said Remke, director of special investigations. "Really from this point forward, people need to be aware" of the law."


Well now
Yes, it happened in Illinois like a fast moving fog. We didn't know the ban was being passed until it was actually passed. It's very underhanded and covert.

I wish there was an organized group that would be able to collectively ban together and defeat these Nannies. Had I known like many others, that this law was coming to our town, I would've protested as well, for what good it might've done.

Death caused by 2nd hand smoke is an absolute myth. I have heard no one die of cancer or heart disease due to 2nd hand smoke. I will grant smoking does smell and is annoying to those who do not smoke. I am willing to be segregated from the non smoking population as long as I can still smoke in a restaurant, a hotel room, in break rooms at my work.

If we don't stop this madness now, eventually, we will have to go to underground speak-easies for a milkshake, fries and a smoke.

Tobacco
However, right Mr. Sullum might be, how can a nation like this, which claims to be under God, be all over the world with its evermore inhumane and horrendous war machinery to hunt down those who wish to kill Americans, when this homegrown industry murders around 400,000 Americans yearly plus leaving thousands of homes completely destroyed? It seems like, America hates foreign terrorism but enjoys home grown terrorism and to add insult to injury, America's Tobacco Companies make more money all over the world, than in the US! Yes, in essence murdering millions upon millions of mostly ignorant men, women and children! Boy, this speaks well of and for America! Do you have an answer for me Mr. Sullum? While Belmont sounds ridiculous to you, should it not sound much more ridiculous to you, what America does all over the world? Yes, also this for your consumption: This, our great loving USA is actually the mass grave of 40 - 50 millions of unborn babies, with the butcher shops open for business as usual, while America's guns at the same time roar far and near! I can only but wonder, how this God of America might just feel about America?

BACKLASH
The war against smoking.

Could we enlist the City Council of Belmont,CA to fight The War On Terror? They're now on the front lines on The War On Smoking, fighting hard to protect us from the slightest whiff of tobacco. With that kind of energy, they could wrap the Iraq War thing up no sweat!

But, too bad, they're busy on the look out for white smoke.

The City Coucil of Belmont obviously knows what is harmful to Americans. Maybe they'll take a hard look at chocolate candy next. Bad for the teeth! Makes you fat! That settles it.

Belmont Coucil get cracking! Ban chocolate candy ASAP!!!!!!


second hand smoke
I always love to hear about second hand smoke and its dangers with no proof of those same dangers.Well there is proof. At a recent drug awarness training session the question was asked."What about second hand marijuana smoke causing a positive return on a urine test."
The instructor said that second hand smoke was so insignificant that THC would not show up in the urine.
About The Peoples Republis of California. Hitler would be proud. They are following his book to the letter and they don't even know it. Now thats scary.

Right Mind
No one in their right mind could have believed it would stop with smoking in cars and in public.

Once the hounds are loose you cannot reign them in again. This is how I know:

we will have amnesty.
We will have effective gun control/confiscation.
We will lose what remains of what we call freedom.

Crusaders
Once again: I hate Copperheads and nebbish. Foolish laws are written by foolish men and followed by men too foolish to be labled Coward.

That said, this remains a marvelous country. I am frequently astonished with the respect that is given by The Law (legislature, police and judiciary) to anyone with the stones to calmly and reasonably state, "I am incredulous that (insert infraction) has damaged or theatened to damage anyone. I plead Not Guilty! I shall make my pleadings pro per, but please appoint a member of the bar to assist me with administrative details, especially the preparation and issuance of subpoenae. No bail is requested and none will be posted, but I do offer my promise to appear at any resonable times this court might choose. My word is my bond."

Copperheads and nebbish: both are traitors, but the latter are the most invidious.

Fight nanny gov with nanny gov
This extension of the no-smoking ban unfairly penalizes the poor, who are far less likely to own their own automobile or their own home set in their own property! It is a civil rights issue! Wail, wail, wail.

Sometimes you have to speak in a language the nanny-gov people can understand...

By the bye, wonder how long it'll be before someone makes the point that, in theory, there is 'no safe quantity' of fast foods, soda pop, automobile exhaust, etc etc ad nauseum.

I only see one thing wrong with this
article. There is no factual evidence that second hand smoke causes anything but increased agitation in busybody freaks. ALL of these studies reference back to the EPA study which in turn used other studies to imply that second hand smoke MAY cause problems. The EPA violated so many of it’s own rules for performing studies (and the rules were already lax) that the study had no validity whatsoever. Imagine a political poll that had a margin of error of ± 200%. That is RINO Rudy may win by a margin of 100% or lose by a margin of -100%. That is the outcome of the study but you will NEVER see it published.

The study was so flawed that the original tobacco company who was filed against took them to court AND won. The judge threw the EPA out of court. This, however, did not deter the EPA. Like congress when stymied, they simply moved right along ignoring the court. The original tobacco company got off but the EPA just changed tactics and used the findings to support supposed "clean air" standards in government buildings, which then also migrated to private buildings that were accessed by the public.

For all of you smoking Nazis out there who absolutely love this kind of intrusion, don’t think the government will stop with cigs. History has shown that anytime the government is given power to act in a direction for one reason, they will use it in ALL reasons that the government deems needed. Remember RICO. It was supposed to be a tool to fight organized crime and drug lords. It is now used to prosecute anyone that the DA’s can somehow squeeze into the statute after torturing it. Think about that people, the Nifongs out there will stop at nothing if given the power. You libtards worry about the Patriot Act and listening in on Abdul from Terrorictostan talking to Mohommed in Milwalkee while the Nifongs of the USA prosecute Uncle Joe under the RICO statutes for smoking in the restroom.

This kind of dreck
makes me sick. I'm afraid if one of these smoking nazis were to accost me it could be worth a trip to jail just to set the fool straight about rights and obligations.

What's Next?
I used to find anti-smoking extremists annoying; now, I find them incredibly stupid and boring. What’s the pay-off their obsessing? Could it be that they just need something outside themselves to focus on so that they don’t have to look at themselves. Typically, when I’m assaulted by an anti-smoking Nazi, I immediately get the impression that they are miserable people in search of an external cause of their misery to blame. It’s got to be those cigarettes that are the blame for my misery; attack!

So what’s next on the agenda? Maybe restaurants will be required by law to have separate dining sections for people who wear copious amounts of cheap perfume? This, of course, will elevate to no perfume allowed in public places, then, not allowed in the home.

Do these Nazis think the pollution that typically lingers over Los Angeles comes from smoking cigarettes? The greatest sources of “second hand smoke” are transportation, power plants, and factories. That is unless you happen to live nearby an active volcano!

http://klintons.com

This really is a nazi program
Looks familiar
------

In Nazi Germany, for instance, abstinence from tobacco was a "national socialist duty" (Hitler gave a gold watch to associates who quit the habit, though this didn't stop them lighting up in the Berlin bunker once they heard the Fuhrer had committed suicide).

Armed with such senior sanction -- loyally, Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler banned SS men from smoking, though not shooting, on duty, and Propaganda Minister Joseph Gobbels was obliged to hide his ciggie whenever he was filmed -- anti-tobacco activists succeeded in banning smoking from government offices, civic transport, university campuses, rest homes, post offices, many restaurants and bars, hospital grounds and workplaces.

Tobacco taxes were raised, unsupervised cigarette vending machines were banned, and there were calls for a ban on smoking while driving.



http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id1.ht ml

TRUE DEMOCRACY?
RIGHT BEFORE I LEFT CALIFORNIA THEY HAD A BILL TO BAN ILLEGALS FROM ALL NON EMERGENCY AID AND SCHOOLS.IT PASSED OVERWHELMINGLY.IT WAS DEEMED UNCONSTITUNAL(FOUGHT WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS).TWO MONTHS LATER THEY INSTITUTED A SMOKING BAN THAT WAS NEVER VOTED ON.AND BEFORE THE LIBS START SAYING WE ARE A REPUBLIC I KNOW.OUR REPS ARE ALLOWING THE TAKE OVER BY LIBERAL SOCIALISTS.

You mean like
Unca Alby writes: 12:59 AM
Cute Idea - - Civil disobedience - -
Except it won't make as good a point unless the steps of City Hall have been designated a "no smoking" zone!
---------------

Belmont?
The city he talks of in the article?

quote:
"since Belmont's smoke-free areas include not only buildings open to the public but outdoor locations where people wait, such as ATM lines and bus stops, or work, such as construction sites and restaurant patios."

Hahahaa, "well, now"
Probably the ONLY thing they won't outlaw!


Verrrrry funny!

No Brian,
Libs will Always suck on the teat of the republic.

Insanity
And this type of thing will continue until this country WAKES THE F*** UP!

I tried to get the Calabassas cops to cite me so I could start a court fight, and they wouldn't do it. At least, so far, the cops aren't buying on.

But THAT won't last forever.

Meanwhile, look for more of these stupid laws on trans fats (already), being overweight (whatever that means), too much body fat (a constantly changing target), not working out enough, etcetera, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Liberalsim and liberals suck!

Which will ALSO probably soon be outlawed.

Cute Idea - - Civil disobedience - -
Except it won't make as good a point unless the steps of City Hall have been designated a "no smoking" zone!

The tobacco nazis
(once upon a time)
A short story
Having smoked for 20 years, John Doe was arrested for lighting up on a residential side street, blowing his murderous smoke into the pure air of anycity USA.

He decided to quit in May 2007.

But died in June (from a hit and run driver on the same street rushing out to stop another criminal cigarette smoker) by a caring man who was in a hurry to save the world.




My suggestion is
Question 2: CAN WE or HOW DO WE reverse the ban?
---------
Get all the smokers together in a city and all march into City Hall and light up

Question: HOW do these bans get PASSED?
I know here in my town - they voted behind closed doors with NO input from the citizens to pass the ban. Is it the same elsewhere?

Question 2: CAN WE or HOW DO WE reverse the ban?

This
is insane, and it is less about smoking than it is about controlling people. It is also about diminishing private property rights. These hick bureaucrats are simply moving the government's ball a little farther down the field.


Every aspect of our lives is threatened by these fascists who have a need to tell everyone else how to live. They use kids, animals, junk foods cooked with transfats, and anything else available to justify increased governmental control.


People had better wake up. Every day America becomes a little less free, and the slime balls who are assaulting freedom never stop sniveling about their rights. They are the scum of the earth. As long as they can replicate themselves via the schools it is just a matter of time before there is blood in the streets.

Well there is a Precedence
For todays nazi's.
"a national political climate stressing the virtues of racial hygiene and bodily purity"

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id1.ht ml
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