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Wednesday, October 10, 2007
Jacob Sullum :: Townhall.com Columnist
Anti-Tobacco Crusaders Boldly Go into Smokers' Homes
by Jacob Sullum
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During Prohibition, making and selling liquor was illegal, but drinking it was not. With tobacco, we are moving toward the opposite situation, where it will be legal to make and sell cigarettes but not to smoke them.

A smoking ban recently approved by the city council of Belmont, Calif., a town halfway between San Jose and San Francisco, is so sweeping that saying where it does not apply is easier than saying where it does. Smoking will still be allowed in tobacco shops, in automobiles, in some hotel rooms, in private residences that do not share a floor or ceiling with other private residences, and on streets and sidewalks, assuming you can find a spot that is not within 20 feet of a smoke-free location.

That may be hard, since Belmont's smoke-free areas include not only buildings open to the public but outdoor locations where people wait, such as ATM lines and bus stops, or work, such as construction sites and restaurant patios. But a smoker who despairs of finding an outdoor area where smoking is allowed can still light up even if he does not own a car and is unlucky enough to live in an apartment or condominium. He just has to land a role in a theatrical production "where smoking is an integral part of the story."

Meanwhile, the Los Angeles suburb that dubbed itself "Clean Air Calabasas" when it was leading the smoke-free march into the great outdoors is considering an extension of its ordinance that would cover apartments. Even if your landlord doesn't care whether you smoke, Clean Air Calabasas does.

The official justification for these ever-more-intrusive smoking bans is that the slightest whiff of secondhand smoke poses an intolerable hazard. The Belmont ordinance claims tobacco smoke is "extremely dangerous," regardless of dose, and warns that even "exposure to outdoor secondhand smoke may present a hazard under certain conditions of wind and smoker proximity."

Predictably, the ordinance cites former Surgeon General Richard Carmona's assertion that "there is no risk-free level of secondhand smoke exposure." But this pseudoscientific leap of faith amounts to saying that every little bit hurts, even if the damage can't be measured.

Epidemiological studies generally find that adults who live with smokers for decades are slightly more likely to get lung cancer and heart disease. The difference is so small that it's hard to say whether it signifies a causal relationship. There is also evidence that very young children of smokers are more prone to earaches and lower respiratory infections. Continued...

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Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason magazine and a contributing columnist on Townhall.com.
 
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Well there is a Precedence
For todays nazi's.
"a national political climate stressing the virtues of racial hygiene and bodily purity"

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id1.ht ml

This
is insane, and it is less about smoking than it is about controlling people. It is also about diminishing private property rights. These hick bureaucrats are simply moving the government's ball a little farther down the field.


Every aspect of our lives is threatened by these fascists who have a need to tell everyone else how to live. They use kids, animals, junk foods cooked with transfats, and anything else available to justify increased governmental control.


People had better wake up. Every day America becomes a little less free, and the slime balls who are assaulting freedom never stop sniveling about their rights. They are the scum of the earth. As long as they can replicate themselves via the schools it is just a matter of time before there is blood in the streets.

Question: HOW do these bans get PASSED?
I know here in my town - they voted behind closed doors with NO input from the citizens to pass the ban. Is it the same elsewhere?

Question 2: CAN WE or HOW DO WE reverse the ban?

My suggestion is
Question 2: CAN WE or HOW DO WE reverse the ban?
---------
Get all the smokers together in a city and all march into City Hall and light up

The tobacco nazis
(once upon a time)
A short story
Having smoked for 20 years, John Doe was arrested for lighting up on a residential side street, blowing his murderous smoke into the pure air of anycity USA.

He decided to quit in May 2007.

But died in June (from a hit and run driver on the same street rushing out to stop another criminal cigarette smoker) by a caring man who was in a hurry to save the world.




Cute Idea - - Civil disobedience - -
Except it won't make as good a point unless the steps of City Hall have been designated a "no smoking" zone!

Insanity
And this type of thing will continue until this country WAKES THE F*** UP!

I tried to get the Calabassas cops to cite me so I could start a court fight, and they wouldn't do it. At least, so far, the cops aren't buying on.

But THAT won't last forever.

Meanwhile, look for more of these stupid laws on trans fats (already), being overweight (whatever that means), too much body fat (a constantly changing target), not working out enough, etcetera, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Liberalsim and liberals suck!

Which will ALSO probably soon be outlawed.

No Brian,
Libs will Always suck on the teat of the republic.

Hahahaa, "well, now"
Probably the ONLY thing they won't outlaw!


Verrrrry funny!

You mean like
Unca Alby writes: 12:59 AM
Cute Idea - - Civil disobedience - -
Except it won't make as good a point unless the steps of City Hall have been designated a "no smoking" zone!
---------------

Belmont?
The city he talks of in the article?

quote:
"since Belmont's smoke-free areas include not only buildings open to the public but outdoor locations where people wait, such as ATM lines and bus stops, or work, such as construction sites and restaurant patios."

TRUE DEMOCRACY?
RIGHT BEFORE I LEFT CALIFORNIA THEY HAD A BILL TO BAN ILLEGALS FROM ALL NON EMERGENCY AID AND SCHOOLS.IT PASSED OVERWHELMINGLY.IT WAS DEEMED UNCONSTITUNAL(FOUGHT WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS).TWO MONTHS LATER THEY INSTITUTED A SMOKING BAN THAT WAS NEVER VOTED ON.AND BEFORE THE LIBS START SAYING WE ARE A REPUBLIC I KNOW.OUR REPS ARE ALLOWING THE TAKE OVER BY LIBERAL SOCIALISTS.

This really is a nazi program
Looks familiar
------

In Nazi Germany, for instance, abstinence from tobacco was a "national socialist duty" (Hitler gave a gold watch to associates who quit the habit, though this didn't stop them lighting up in the Berlin bunker once they heard the Fuhrer had committed suicide).

Armed with such senior sanction -- loyally, Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler banned SS men from smoking, though not shooting, on duty, and Propaganda Minister Joseph Gobbels was obliged to hide his ciggie whenever he was filmed -- anti-tobacco activists succeeded in banning smoking from government offices, civic transport, university campuses, rest homes, post offices, many restaurants and bars, hospital grounds and workplaces.

Tobacco taxes were raised, unsupervised cigarette vending machines were banned, and there were calls for a ban on smoking while driving.



http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id1.ht ml

What's Next?
I used to find anti-smoking extremists annoying; now, I find them incredibly stupid and boring. What’s the pay-off their obsessing? Could it be that they just need something outside themselves to focus on so that they don’t have to look at themselves. Typically, when I’m assaulted by an anti-smoking Nazi, I immediately get the impression that they are miserable people in search of an external cause of their misery to blame. It’s got to be those cigarettes that are the blame for my misery; attack!

So what’s next on the agenda? Maybe restaurants will be required by law to have separate dining sections for people who wear copious amounts of cheap perfume? This, of course, will elevate to no perfume allowed in public places, then, not allowed in the home.

Do these Nazis think the pollution that typically lingers over Los Angeles comes from smoking cigarettes? The greatest sources of “second hand smoke” are transportation, power plants, and factories. That is unless you happen to live nearby an active volcano!

http://klintons.com

This kind of dreck
makes me sick. I'm afraid if one of these smoking nazis were to accost me it could be worth a trip to jail just to set the fool straight about rights and obligations.

I only see one thing wrong with this
article. There is no factual evidence that second hand smoke causes anything but increased agitation in busybody freaks. ALL of these studies reference back to the EPA study which in turn used other studies to imply that second hand smoke MAY cause problems. The EPA violated so many of it’s own rules for performing studies (and the rules were already lax) that the study had no validity whatsoever. Imagine a political poll that had a margin of error of ± 200%. That is RINO Rudy may win by a margin of 100% or lose by a margin of -100%. That is the outcome of the study but you will NEVER see it published.

The study was so flawed that the original tobacco company who was filed against took them to court AND won. The judge threw the EPA out of court. This, however, did not deter the EPA. Like congress when stymied, they simply moved right along ignoring the court. The original tobacco company got off but the EPA just changed tactics and used the findings to support supposed "clean air" standards in government buildings, which then also migrated to private buildings that were accessed by the public.

For all of you smoking Nazis out there who absolutely love this kind of intrusion, don’t think the government will stop with cigs. History has shown that anytime the government is given power to act in a direction for one reason, they will use it in ALL reasons that the government deems needed. Remember RICO. It was supposed to be a tool to fight organized crime and drug lords. It is now used to prosecute anyone that the DA’s can somehow squeeze into the statute after torturing it. Think about that people, the Nifongs out there will stop at nothing if given the power. You libtards worry about the Patriot Act and listening in on Abdul from Terrorictostan talking to Mohommed in Milwalkee while the Nifongs of the USA prosecute Uncle Joe under the RICO statutes for smoking in the restroom.

Fight nanny gov with nanny gov
This extension of the no-smoking ban unfairly penalizes the poor, who are far less likely to own their own automobile or their own home set in their own property! It is a civil rights issue! Wail, wail, wail.

Sometimes you have to speak in a language the nanny-gov people can understand...

By the bye, wonder how long it'll be before someone makes the point that, in theory, there is 'no safe quantity' of fast foods, soda pop, automobile exhaust, etc etc ad nauseum.

Crusaders
Once again: I hate Copperheads and nebbish. Foolish laws are written by foolish men and followed by men too foolish to be labled Coward.

That said, this remains a marvelous country. I am frequently astonished with the respect that is given by The Law (legislature, police and judiciary) to anyone with the stones to calmly and reasonably state, "I am incredulous that (insert infraction) has damaged or theatened to damage anyone. I plead Not Guilty! I shall make my pleadings pro per, but please appoint a member of the bar to assist me with administrative details, especially the preparation and issuance of subpoenae. No bail is requested and none will be posted, but I do offer my promise to appear at any resonable times this court might choose. My word is my bond."

Copperheads and nebbish: both are traitors, but the latter are the most invidious.

Right Mind
No one in their right mind could have believed it would stop with smoking in cars and in public.

Once the hounds are loose you cannot reign them in again. This is how I know:

we will have amnesty.
We will have effective gun control/confiscation.
We will lose what remains of what we call freedom.

second hand smoke
I always love to hear about second hand smoke and its dangers with no proof of those same dangers.Well there is proof. At a recent drug awarness training session the question was asked."What about second hand marijuana smoke causing a positive return on a urine test."
The instructor said that second hand smoke was so insignificant that THC would not show up in the urine.
About The Peoples Republis of California. Hitler would be proud. They are following his book to the letter and they don't even know it. Now thats scary.

BACKLASH
The war against smoking.

Could we enlist the City Council of Belmont,CA to fight The War On Terror? They're now on the front lines on The War On Smoking, fighting hard to protect us from the slightest whiff of tobacco. With that kind of energy, they could wrap the Iraq War thing up no sweat!

But, too bad, they're busy on the look out for white smoke.

The City Coucil of Belmont obviously knows what is harmful to Americans. Maybe they'll take a hard look at chocolate candy next. Bad for the teeth! Makes you fat! That settles it.

Belmont Coucil get cracking! Ban chocolate candy ASAP!!!!!!


Tobacco
However, right Mr. Sullum might be, how can a nation like this, which claims to be under God, be all over the world with its evermore inhumane and horrendous war machinery to hunt down those who wish to kill Americans, when this homegrown industry murders around 400,000 Americans yearly plus leaving thousands of homes completely destroyed? It seems like, America hates foreign terrorism but enjoys home grown terrorism and to add insult to injury, America's Tobacco Companies make more money all over the world, than in the US! Yes, in essence murdering millions upon millions of mostly ignorant men, women and children! Boy, this speaks well of and for America! Do you have an answer for me Mr. Sullum? While Belmont sounds ridiculous to you, should it not sound much more ridiculous to you, what America does all over the world? Yes, also this for your consumption: This, our great loving USA is actually the mass grave of 40 - 50 millions of unborn babies, with the butcher shops open for business as usual, while America's guns at the same time roar far and near! I can only but wonder, how this God of America might just feel about America?

Well now
Yes, it happened in Illinois like a fast moving fog. We didn't know the ban was being passed until it was actually passed. It's very underhanded and covert.

I wish there was an organized group that would be able to collectively ban together and defeat these Nannies. Had I known like many others, that this law was coming to our town, I would've protested as well, for what good it might've done.

Death caused by 2nd hand smoke is an absolute myth. I have heard no one die of cancer or heart disease due to 2nd hand smoke. I will grant smoking does smell and is annoying to those who do not smoke. I am willing to be segregated from the non smoking population as long as I can still smoke in a restaurant, a hotel room, in break rooms at my work.

If we don't stop this madness now, eventually, we will have to go to underground speak-easies for a milkshake, fries and a smoke.


Notice
that the blame is placed on the consumer as opposed to the real culprits, the state legislature and the Revenue Dept.
-------------------------------------------------
"Laws already on the books prohibit people from bringing more than two cartons of smokes across the line on any one trip, and now David Remke with the state Revenue Department is warning Tennesseans that his staff plans on enforcing the often-ignored rule.

He said the state is out to protect its corner stores and tobacco shops.

"It's not fair to them that they've lost a lot of their business," said Remke, director of special investigations. "Really from this point forward, people need to be aware" of the law."

Nannyism/Nazism
Nannyism in every form is little more than Nazism in practice. We now have some areas passing zero tolerance drinking laws. In sum, have a glass of wine at dinner and go to jail. Tolerance - which is the right hand of freedom - has been thrown out the door. Every action that the health police don't like is now under their control. And, it extends beyond merely what and when we consume whatever it is. Consider that a medical doctor who concludes that a specific non-FDA approved treatment that works in one country may work here, cannot promote it and profit by it without losing their license. Even speaking about it leads to harassment and potential loss of their license. Freedom of speech has been subverted. Underlying it all is pseudo-science. When the government used a study that they claimed stipulated that benzene in gasoline could cause cancer, they wrote environmental laws that dicated that all fuel tanks would be inspected and any contamination would have to be removed. Further, all would have to be eventually replaced with double wall tanks. The costs of cleanup destroyed most of the independent gasoline industry. 90% of the companies who at one time had tanks got rid of them. The number of retailers was cut in 1/2. The independent wholesalers disappeared, and the independent refineries were acquired by the majors. John D. Rockefeller would have been amazed, as the entire supply chain is now controlled by a few companies. 9 years after the onset of these laws, the EPA was forced to admit in court that the study was flawed - and there was no evidence to support their claim that benzene caused cancer.

And so it goes.

The only way
to combat this sort of totalitarian oppression is to ignore the law. Continue to live as you please, and if you get arrested, refuse to pay the fine. Go to jail and scream bloody murder while you are there.

Some of the conservative legal institutions such as the Alliance Defense Fund needs to press this issue because, as some have already stated, this is NOT about smoking, it is about the right of Americans to be free in their homes and their persons. If we lose this, nothing else matters.

Eben
Very interesting. I was wondering about this a few days ago. The only filling stations in the area that I live in are Shell. I think there is one Marathon.

Remeber Texaco? Standard Oil? Where have they all gone? I hate Shell. Every time I go into one of their service stations, they are being manned by Middle Eastern men. They are probably sending all their profits to Al Qaeda. I would go somewhere else, but there are no others.

Every infringement (but 1) is necessary
The WHO performed a long-term study to determine the effects of second-hand smoke. The results showed NO statistically significant harm in second-hand smoke. This test never made the papers (it was bad news only for the anti-smoking nazis--and could have harmed the State's efforts to tax and ban the noxious weed).

Meanwhile, they're in our bathrooms, telling us to flush with 1.6 gallons; they're in our kitchens, telling us we're filling our water pitchers too quickly; they're in our cars, telling us not to smoke when children are present, or talk on cell phones, or use leaded gasoline, or drive without seat belts, and how fast is too fast. They banned DDT, for the birds (and killed millions with malaria). They've just fined a large American electric company for pollution that causes "acid rain" (been a long time since they've raised that bogus specter). In New York...well, you know. And of course, there's the ongoing effort to make taxes "fair," and spending "equitable" (the rich have more than they need, the poor deserve more than they have).

But the only infringement that frightens the American Left is George Bush's listening in--without judicial approval--to their conversations with overseas terrorists. THEY know what's important.

H. D. Schmidt
"Do you have an answer for me Mr. Sullum?"

I have an answer for you. The issue lies in the middle of your rant "...murdering millions upon millions of mostly ignorant men, women".

You have a narcissistic, elitist attitude towards anyone who does not live as you think they should. What makes you think that just because someone smokes they are ignorant? Anyone who has not heard or read all the warnings about smoking today would have to have died 50 years ago! It's not ignorance! It's choice!

Sometimes people just chose to do what makes them happy regardless of the risk. That is their right as an adult. A concept that liberal fascists just can't grasp.

Wrong approach
As a non-smoker, I have thoroughly enjoyed the benefit in several states of being able to dine or have drinks in a smoke free environment. The smoke in some bars used to be so thick that my eyes would sting by the end of the evening, and obviously a "smoking section" in a restaurant does not magically contain said smoking. While I approve of the results of these laws, I also recognize that government has no place telling businesses what type of environment to provide for its customers (I do NOT have any problem with banning smoking on truly public property though). I think the real problem with these laws is that the focus is public health as related to secondhand smoke, a claim that is patently ridiculous. It should really be approached from a public nuisance angle since that's really what it is. I am all in favor of people being allowed to smoke as much as they would like, but only when I do not have to be confronted with it in a public setting, because for every anti-smoking "nazi" there is also a militant smoker that has no consideration for people around him or her when lighting up. And as far as the "child abuse" stretch for smoking parents, I'm not sure that's entirely baseless, but at the same time is certainly a frightening government intrusion to imagine.

Govt: BUTT out!
I don't like indoor second-hand smoke, but I think it ought to be the prerogative of the restaurant owner, or the apartment landlord to gear his business the way he sees fit: let him decide if he wants to cater to smokers or anti-smokers, or if smoking (or the lack of it) is helping or hurting his business.

It's politically correct to gang up on (and tax the crp out of) smokers.
Personally, I will never vote for someone who votes or proposes to fund something by taxing tobacco. It's intellectually lazy and dishonest because it hits on people who aren't likely to speak up. I'm hoping that although they don't speak up, they do vote. (hear that Rick Perry?)

When they've taxed tobacco out of existance (legal existance), what next?


Money
No one has mentioned the real truth in the laws on a legal product. Cigerattes are a product that can be purchased legally. As with oil, the Government must have the taxed Dollars this money is in bucks bigger than the average"joe" can even imagine!!
I have a problem with smokes being a legal product and yet the regs as to how and when one can use them. I would agree, this is aform of Nazism!
The court house stairs revolt of the Smokers sounds like a winner to me!!

Tobacco in Maryland
In Maryland our left wing governor wants to raise the cig tax $1 per pack to raise revenue for health benefits. That's really rich. They want to fund a health care project with money froom a very unhealthy habit.

This second hand smoke is more about control than health.

Overlooked
the rates of non-smokers lung cancer has plunged to almost zero since these laws have been on the books.

Second hand Bull
I think we should have a law against second hand bull that comes from these anti-smoking advocates. And no I don't smoke.

Hmmmmmm...........
Couple of thoughts:

1) is really a correction: it is carbon MONOXIDE (CO), not carbon DIOXIDE (CO2), that is emitted from cars, trucks, etc.; animals and humans breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide, which trees take in to emit oxygen. (May be over-simplified, but had to use the Cliff's Notes version.)

2) As a non-smoker myself, I knew if I went into a bar, lounge, etc. if it was a smoking area or not; we in our house have had non-smoking inside for years, but accepted whatever the rules were at anyplace we went. The "second-hand smoke" argument is insane, especially where it regards kids; if that were true, adults would be dying far sooner than they are from smoking--why would it take 30-40-50+ years to die from smoking if an adult, but one puff of second-hand smoke, even from the other end of a bowling alley or (especially ridiculous) an outdoor playground kills a child? Get real.

3) And, "Iagree": The reason for your statement . . . is that, in reality, the number of places that allow smoking, such as bars, have shrunk (as in "closed", "gone out of business", etc.); plus the smokers don't have any place to go to light up that is public.
Just curious, "Iagree": Did you ever go to any bars, etc. where smoking was legal, and did you go there with your kid(s)?

Melvin h.
sarcasm...but it brings up a interesting point. If these laws were effective then the advocates for smoking bans would be using them for leverage. however we don't see that we only see alarmist rhetoric.

Melvin: I am a smoker, have been for years. I go to my local watering hole for a couple of cold ones all the time. They just passed the ban here and the Pub that I frequent is smoking but the law states 21 and older only. Oh and BTW buisness is good.

The bottom line in this whole debate is that it should be left up to the owner of the buisness to establish the smoking status. Let the market determine.

smoke
Tobacco smoke triggers my migraines. In the good ol' days I went home from work, sick as a dog, everynight.

Even so, I do not think the government has any business in this discussion, especially laws that are not voted on!

Declaration of War
You will never stop the minority from destroying your inalienable rights until you awaken the majority to rise up and stop it no matter what it takes.

In reality, smokers are fighting a lost cause because, in this case, they are the minority. Have you noticed how these fiends flip-flop on whom they protect and how they go about accomplishing their control?

This is really not about smoking, it is about absolute control and destruction of the Constitutional freedoms which are nearly all gone. We are systematically being duped by the 2-Party system because the elitists all "march to the same drummer."

Declaration of War
You will never stop the minority from destroying your inalienable rights until you awaken the majority to rise up and stop it no matter what it takes.

In reality, smokers are fighting a lost cause because, in this case, they are the minority. Have you noticed how these fiends flip-flop on whom they protect and how they go about accomplishing their control?

This is really not about smoking, it is about absolute control and destruction of the Constitutional freedoms which are nearly all gone. We are systematically being duped by the 2-Party system because the elitists all "march to the same drummer."

the LEft's agenda...
#1. You can't eat meat.

#2. You must not live in a green(wild life)zone.

#3. All citizens must live in an approved urban center or state registered and controlled organic farming community.

#4. No guns in Amerika.

#5. No hunting or fishing (see #1 and #4)

#6. No mention of God (or especially Christ)in public.

#7. You may not teach your child "absolute" truth or any religion unless it is approved by the state, i.e. evolution.

#8. Population control at all costs including mandatory abortions and euthanasia. The state will decide if you can have children and if so, how many.

#9. You may not participate in any event or habit which is deemed "un-healthy" by the officer of your state health benefit organization.

Nanny Laws & The Nazis
This is another case of the liberal "do-gooders"
gone wild. Another "nanny law" to take away more rights and freedom. When does it stop? When we kick these idiots out of office and take back our government! This is NOT about smoking. This is about power & control!

Nanny Laws
This is another case of the liberal "do-gooders"
gone wild. Another "nanny law" to take away more rights and freedom. When does it stop? When we kick these idiots out of office and take back our government! This is NOT about smoking. This is about power & control!

The Left's Agenda!
cat trapper....May I add:

10. All Blacks must vote Democratic.

11. Not use of the word "Christmas". "Winter Holiday" is just fine, however.

12. No restictions on immigration. Crinmals especially welcome.

13. Fox News, Talk Radio and TH must be stopped. MSM is the only proper news venue.


freedom?
The ONLY freedom being infringed in the case of smoking bans is the freedom of a business owner to determine what type of environment that he or she will provide for the customers. Bans on smoking in PUBLIC are a recognition that non-smokers have a RIGHT to not be subjected to conditions that they find to be disgusting (and possibly, though NOT likely, with negative health consequences). The "rights" of a smoker end when others are forced to tolerate the effects of their smoking. Again, I am not saying that people should not be allowed to smoke. On the contrary, anyone should be allowed to participate in ANY legal activity no matter how stupid and dangerous as long as it does not affect others. But this is clearly the basic principle of one person's rights ending where others' begin.

Amen!
I am tired of being subjected to cigarette smoke which I did not choose to inhale. I cannot help the fact that I have asthma, I am in great health otherwise. No one made them pick up a cigarette. Before I moved into my apartment, I was not informed of smokers in the building or the fact that it had a central air system. Now I leave my air conditioning off in 95 degree weather just so I can breathe.

I believe the government should be involved, because it exists to protect my right to life. The right to "pursue happiness" by smokers lighting up is not protected because it infringes upon my rights.

Band together
It's been coming for a long time -- a nationwide smoking ban seems inevitable in the Nanny State, especially if Hillary and her comrades assume power. I think smokers need to band together, maybe join forces with groups like the NRA, and fight back. Concerning a smoking ban in our homes -- what's become of a cornerstone of our nation: a man's home is his castle?


Anti-Smoker Campaign

I think that most of the comments above about control and Naziism fail to understand the true motivation of the anti-smoker people. This is simply the new racism.

There are many people who simply need an under-group (or race) to attack, especially when they can feel virtuous from their actions. When the civil rights movement removed much of their satisfaction from attacking blacks, they needed a new target -- and here we were.

The attacks are simply too emotional and unthinking to be based on health or even on enjoying power.

I have been enjoying Western society's self destruction since the 70's.

Cheers,
Ron

As far as taxes go
On cigarettes
There has always existed a excise tax.
There is no way to find out how much smokers have paid over the years, but it would no doubt pay for everyone on earth to have complete health care coverage.

But the fact is these taxes have gone into paying for more and more government and government employee benefits.
Then of course the lawyers who make out like the bandits they were when the Tobacco Companies were sued under Billy bob Klinton.

I am not for promoting cigarettes, I am for LIBERTY for all and hate for nazis.

I really think smokers should ban together and blow smoke in the officials face.

The ones who under handedly get such regulations passed as the City of Belmont

M. Sederoff
When private businesses removed and did not replace their fuel tanks, and the independent gas retailers found out that the cost of cleaning up ground water far exceeded any rational investment causing them to close their doors, the independent wholesalers then followed. After that, the independent refineries that supplied the industry were bought by the majors. Shell absorbed Standard of Ohio in the Midwest, Chevron and Texaco merged, Exxon and BP divided up Mobil, Phillips and Conoco merged,etc. Today, the industry has become as concentrated as it was under Rockefeller's Standard Oil Trust. One can pretend that their is no collusion - but given the interlocking oil field and pipeline development agreements these companies have with each other - that's simply absurd. Free enterprise is gone. The EPA did what no one else could do - and in a much shorter period of time. And the environmentalists with their faulty science love it - but still hate big oil - which they made even bigger.

You have no such right
Sarah writes: Wednesday, October, 10, 2007 11:13 AM
Amen!
I am tired of being subjected to cigarette smoke which I did not choose to inhale. I cannot help the fact that I have asthma, I am in great health otherwise. No one made them pick up a cigarette. Before I moved into my apartment, I was not informed of smokers in the building or the fact that it had a central air system. Now I leave my air conditioning off in 95 degree weather just so I can breathe.

I believe the government should be involved, because it exists to protect my right to life. The right to "pursue happiness" by smokers lighting up is not protected because it infringes upon my rights.
-----------------------

Your nose is not the standard for any mans rights.
Taking such a view would demand we all have equal rights to ban all smells we do not like.

Its called "Equal Protection under the Law"

Hmmm. Silly thought, but...
I wonder if helpfully giving a smoke to a needy...
white guy/black man/Jew/Hispanic person/gay/atheist/Muslim/lesbian/woman/whatever
...
could in the future be construed as a hate crime? After all, wouldn't it 'tend toward the destruction of the individual or group'?

CRY BABIES
You know and I know that if they shut down the Cigareet factories that the LIBSCUM/UNOINS would be blasting this Administration of all the unemployment that this has cost. I have had relatives who have died from Cancer and never smoked one lick. There seems to be allot of people who die of cancer and never smoked. The thing about second hand smoke was just for DUMBOCRAPS to make it a Political situation. Just wait until the elections get going you will have DUMBOCRAPS coming out of the walls about saving the Children just like they always do. If its for the children then who could bad mouth the program right. They aleady want to give everybody Free Health Care so who would quit if they get free treatment, another LIBSCUM ploy to control the IGNORANT HUMAN RACE as they call it.

Dosie-Doe, Change Partners and Swing
About fifty years ago the political right was up in arms because fluoridation of the public water supply was being considered as a way of discouraging tooth decay. The right's argument then was that since everybody needs water, it was wrong to impose a chemical, fluroride, even on those who did not want it. It was the left that said "it's OK to have this element everywhere in the water".

Now positions are switched. Many on the right now argue that it's OK for them to put tobacco particles in the air everyone must breathe because, well, because they want to. Those on the left are saying, "We should have some choice about what we breathe".

Just an observation.

Addiction
Addicts are so predictable. They seek the most irrational arguments to cling to their addiction. Smoking makes you stink; then it makes you ugly; then it makes you sick; then it kills you. Any argument to the contrary is simply denial. If you smoke, you are really offensive. The smoke-free body reacts intensely to the presence of smoke. It is telling you that smoke is bad. Why not listen to the message. STOP SMOKING!

"I don't fart in your face. Don't smoke in my space." ©1998 Jerry J Mercer

Vic
See if you can find a copy of "Newsweek" August 13, 2007. It's the one with big letters on the front saying "Global Warming is a Hoax". The cover article details the huge (and successful) campaign by fossil-fuel-loving business to shape public opinion against global warming by creating an impression of scientific doubt. My point in mentioning this here is that their model for that campaign was the one waged by the tobacco industry. In fact, credible scientific opinion has long supported the position that second-hand smoke is harmful to those who breathe it.

Business has one goal: to make money and more money. It ruthlessly strikes down what stands in the way of that goal.

Is smoking not harmful? My son's mother-in-law died two weeks ago of emphysema. She had chain-smoked for decades. Her lung tissue was so damanged that it no longer functioned. She slowly choked to death and, at the end, not so slowly. This is not an easy way to go. Yes, smoking was her personal choice. But the family members who lived in her presence had to endure the same harmful elements, albeit in smaller quantities than she herself received. Smoking is a "personal choice" that inflicts one's choice upon others, and so it is a form of bullying. In any case, often those who must breathe tobacco-laden air have no choice; I grew up as the child of a mother who smoked constantly, so I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop, and I myself am not a smoker.

Ignorant-or lying,HD Schmidt
this homegrown industry murders around 400,000 Americans yearly plus leaving thousands of homes completely destroyed?
Back that up
Sarah, your right to vote infringes on my right to think.
Selfishness is not a virtue, and I used to ask before I lit up until they decided that the cig taxes I was paying (Which were already high enough to provide for the health coverage of two other people besides myself) needed to be raised 75 cents a pack more.
This means that my tax burden increased by $287.00 a year more than a non-smokers taxes.
An easier and far cheaper way to care for high-risk patients like you is to move all asthma sufferers to Arizona, declare the state a non-smoking state, and leave the rest of us alone.
I feel your pain, but will not be legally required to suffer it as well.

Never
will I allow the gubmint to dictate to me what I can or cannot do in my own home.This is the most insane law I've ever heard of.Look out,they'll be after your guns next!

Ignorant-or lying,HD Schmidt
this homegrown industry murders around 400,000 Americans yearly plus leaving thousands of homes completely destroyed?
Back that up
Sarah, your right to vote infringes on my right to think.
Selfishness is not a virtue, and I used to ask before I lit up until they decided that the cig taxes I was paying (Which were already high enough to provide for the health coverage of two other people besides myself) needed to be raised 75 cents a pack more.
This means that my tax burden increased by $287.00 a year more than a non-smokers taxes.
An easier and far cheaper way to care for high-risk patients like you is to move all asthma sufferers to Arizona, declare the state a non-smoking state, and leave the rest of us alone.
I feel your pain, but will not be legally required to suffer it as well.

Questions for Stupid Liberals
What about The Tobacco Farmers who feed, clothe and house their families with money EARNED by selling their tobacco crop?

What about the cigarette factory workers who feed, clothe and house their families with money EARNED by processing said tobacco crop?

What gives you the right to ban a LEGAL substance?

Drunk Driving kills thousands of people every year, are you going to ban Alcohol? Are you going to ban Cars?

Who is more stupid, Robert or Phylo?

To All Who Oppose Smoking Bans
One question: Do you also believe that traffic lights are evidence of an oppressive Nazi state and that drivers should ignore them to make a libertarian point?

Phylo-
Just because you no longer insert the word "spew" into every sentence does not mean that you now make sense.

lilly
There is NO scientific evidence that second hand smoke does anything. That is NONE lilly, otherwise known as ZERO.

Even you can't fumble around and misconstrue that. Anyone who says there is is a liar.

As for Newsweek, I wouldn't give a d*mn in H*ll for anything that pack of liars said either.

lilly
Join Sarah in Arizona, and quit your self-centered whining.
If smoking somehow oppresses you, even at your age you need to grow up.
Society is not here to cater to your sensitivities, and the dangers of second hand smoke are wildly exaggerated.

Lilly
Do you believe that Zucchini squash is evidence of brain eating bacteria in canine feces?

lilly
Join Sarah in Arizona, and quit your self-centered whining.
If smoking somehow oppresses you, even at your age you need to grow up.
Society is not here to cater to your sensitivities, and the dangers of second hand smoke are wildly exaggerated.

a way to spend my time efficiently
This may be of no interest to some, but I have found a way to spend my time efficiently as I read TH. I use ATT Yahoo Mail, and your system may be much different, but maybe you can find a way to do this.

First I click “View in descending order.”

Then I place the name of the day (Monday, Tuesday, etc.) in the Find box, then click Previous.

The first comment is at the bottom of the page, but for each additional click, the next comment is available to read, scan, or ignore, at the top of the screen. It works well for me.

Just one click will take you from each comment to the next. Of course you can click at any spot in the column, and start from there.

It's your computer, use it better
Well, maybe it’s because I first became interested in 1944 in the "pre-computer" business, and spent my pay-roll years helping put the men on the moon etc., but let’s make better use of the computers we have.

And here it is again, PLEASE!

Come on, commenters, use your return Key, over and over.

No one has time to read all this fascinating stuff in detail, so if the paragraphs are short, they can be scanned, if they are long, they should be, and are skipped.