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Friday, July 20, 2007
Hugh Hewitt :: Townhall.com Columnist
Attacking General Petraeus: The Hysterics of the Anti-War Fringe
by Hugh Hewitt
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


The decline of the leftwing netroots into one great, venomous snarl is far advanced, well-known, and much remarked upon by political observers from across the spectrum. But even given its deserved reputation for poisonous invective, the assault mounted against General David Petraeus surprises. General Petraeus made the unforgivable mistake in their eyes of appearing on my radio program and answering questions. (The transcript is here and the audio is here.) Both because he agreed to be interviewed by a journalist favorable to victory and supportive of President Bush and because his answers suggest progress is being made in Iraq, Petraeus has been savaged by leftist bloggers big and little.

Among center-right bloggers and pundits, the reaction of Instapundit's Glenn Reynolds was typical. “Every Member of Congress should have to read [the transcript]. Reynolds opined –the expected reaction of anyone interested in the facts about the surge. Others on the center-right applauded the general for agreeing to an extended interview and urging more, not fewer engagements with the press. For a couple of examples of thoughtful responses to the general’s answers, see The Belmont Club and In From The Cold. (“The exceptionally high tempo of special forces activities suggests that they have been ‘unleashed’ in Iraq, and are engaging the enemy with deadly efficiency,” concludes the retired spook who is “In From The Cold.” “While most media reports focus on conventional units, engaged in large-scale operations such as the recent clearing of Baquba, there is another equally important conflict being waged in the shadows. And that’s where Al Qaeda is taking a major beating.” The Belmont Club’s Wretchard noted that in the interview “Petraeus gives us a glimpse into the sharp end of the war. The kinetic battle,” and he goes on to speculate on the long-term impact of the war’s tactics on the American military.)

Analysis of what the general actually said was in short supply among the critics. Even before he had read the transcript, Andrew Sullivan launched into one of his trademarks explosions of hysteria and slander. “I think such a decision to cater to one party's propaganda outlet renders Petraeus' military independence moot,” Sullivan declared. “I'll wait for the transcript,” he continued, before not waiting for the transcript. “But Petraeus is either willing to be used by the Republican propaganda machine or he is part of the Republican propaganda machine. I'm beginning to suspect the latter. The only thing worse than a deeply politicized and partisan war is a deeply politicized and partisan commander. But we now know whose side Petraeus seems to be on: Cheney's. Expect spin, not truth, in September.”(emphasis added.)

Even for a scribbler as discredited and cartoonish as Sullivan has become, the casual slander of General Petraeus’ integrity is breathtaking. Sullivan’s smear, however, was far from the worst the anti-war crowd produced in their pre-emptive assault on Petraeus’ status report on the surge, due in September. The famed “constitutional rights litigator” (self-described) Glenn Greenwald denounced General Petraeus for using “White House talking points” and unveiled how he will be working overtime to dispute Petraeus’ September assessment:

Despite the Mandate Orthodoxy that Gen. Petraeus be treated as the Objective, Unassailably Credible Oracle for how we are doing in Iraq and whether we are winning, his track record of quite dubious claims over the last several years about the war strongly negates that view. It ought to go without saying that no military commander -- particularly in the midst of a disastrous four-year war -- is entitled to blind faith and to be placed above being questioned. It is not only proper, but critically necessary, to subject happy war claims from the military to great scrutiny.

The Atlantic’s Matthew Yglesias also blasted the general’s decision to be interviewed by me (a “lunatic”) and derisively labeled him as “The New Jesus.”

Over at The Carpetbagger Report, a post concluded:

And speaking of Petraeus, what should we expect from him come September? It’s probably best to lower expectations now. Petraeus’ credibility suffered a serious blow this week when he appeared on far-right activist Hugh Hewitt’s radio show, and stuck closely to the White House script.

Many of the comments that followed were as vile, an example of which is “Can you call him Betrayus now? He’s just an GOP stooge in a uniform.”

Ron Beasly began his assessment at Gun Toting Liberal with a slander on all active duty generals:

To reach the rank of general you have to be part politician, it has always been that way. A good general is always a general first and a politician second. Those who have been generals first have over the last six years be driven from the service by Donald Rumsfeld and the Bush administration. What we have left are men like General Petraeus. Not only a politician but a political hack. We know what he’s going to say in September because he said it all yesterday on wingnut radio, The Hugh Hewitt Show. On cue from Hugh he recited all the administration/neocon talking points.

At Talk Left, “Big Tent Democrat” thinks he’s more respectful of General Petraeus than some of his anti-war colleagues, but he too preemptively attributes deceitfulness to Petraeus in the September assessment:

Does anyone believe that a proud soldier like Petraeus will provide a sense that he can't succeed? Of course he will not. Heck, if he would, would you really want him to be leading the forces? Unlike Glenn, I am not as skeptical of Petraeus' intentions; I just realize he is human and the commander of the operation is not going to be the one to declare his operation a failure.

The paranoia that has gripped the “we must lose in Iraq” forces is exemplified by these graphs at “D-Day” blog:

I have little need to wait for a transcript. This has become a Defense Department strategy, intentionally reaching out to conservative bloggers and media types in order to get their "unfiltered message" out. They even have a name for it; the "Surrogates Option". Of course, those partisan ideologues that continue to defend the President are all too happy to scrupulously type up military propaganda. Because that's what it is.

This is nothing new in wartime, but it ought to be known that the General leading forces in Iraq is only speaking to partisan ideologues instead of any reporter that would ask a tough question. And Congress should use that as a guide when they take a look at his report in a couple months.

At Balloon Juice, John Cole’s bitterness at seeing the commander in Iraq be asked and answer a long series of straightforward questions the answer to which might encourage a reader/listener to believe in victory exploded into view:

I am actually pretty shocked that Gen. Petraeus took time from his busy schedule to appear on what is little more than an organ of the right-wing spin machine.

Just kidding. It isn’t surprising at all.

You would honestly think that the military, at the very least, would want their leadership to appear to be more than GOP party organs. Instead, Petraeus is appearing on Tinkerbell central, and now brings his credibility into question.

Excellent work, General. Was Limbaugh busy, or something?

I am not surprised that the Bush haters like Sullivan and Cole are outraged that General Petraeus would be interviewed by an admirer of the president, or that the anti-war extremists like Greenwald, Yglesias and the others cannot disguise their contempt for the military (though they think their attack on General Petraeus’ integrity won’t identify them as anti-military.)

I’m not surprised that new media journalists producing interviews of a sort far superior to what MSM serves up in one minute sound bytes excites the anger of folks who prefer their defeatist agendas advanced by a dominant MSM. They don’t want the Beltway-Manhattan media elites to lose their monopoly on “important” interviews as that means instead of Democratic journalists like Tim Russert, George Stephanopoulos and Chris Matthews asking defeat-slanted questions, new media outlets will step in and allow serious people to make extended arguments about the stakes in Iraq and the state of the various battles in the broader war on terror.

And I’m not surprised that the unmistakable signs of the tactical success of the surge has the gang breaking out in the sweats at the prospect of a change in some of the public’s view of Iraq. There’s a long time between now and November, 2008, and continued progress in Iraq and Afghanistan will leave the defeatist Democrats exposed as wholly unqualified to steward the national security of the United States.

What surprises me is that the extremists have fallen so deeply into their own narrative that they are wholly unaware of how their call for strict control of the news and their slander of the widely and rightly admired extraordinary hero that is General Petraeus exposes them to the public as deeply unbalanced, anti-intellectual and far, far removed from the mainstream of America. This disconnection from ordinary Americans is always obvious when a leftist resorts to the most foul sorts of profanity and vulgarity, but the rage that bubbles and erupts again and again is the sort of eye-opener that not even friends can ignore for very long. The demands for the Fairness Doctrine’s return displayed the same sort of zealotry in the attempt to shut down voices not in keeping with their own. The illiberal reflexiveness of the left tells you all you need to know about how they would govern if they ever got close to power.

The anger at the growing influence of center-right new media will grow. Rush Limbaugh enrages the left because he is so obviously and undeniably successful at building and maintaining the largest audience for a single point of view in the country. Little tiny bloggers generating a thousand visitors a day, or even large ones with a few tens of thousands of visitors a day, don’t begin to match even 1% of Limbaugh’s audience. Envy becomes fury in a hurry.

My program repeatedly gets their bile rising because it is –objectively—a place where serious people go for serious conversation about serious subjects, a product with a large and growing audience of smart, successful and usually patriotic people who are politically active, deeply compassionate, and extraordinarily supportive of the troops. Its audience dwarfs even the biggest of the lefty blogs, though not of course the MSM powerhouses. Again, envy becomes fury in a hurry on the left.

Bill Kristol, Fred Kagan, Fred Barnes, Michael Yon, John Burns, Mark Steyn, Max Boot –any member of the media or any intellectual—who is even open to the idea that the overthrow of Saddam was necessary and the fight for a stable, democratic Iraq a crucial moment for the world, one requiring victory over the butchers—is despised because they know what they know and refuse to let the debate end. They are influential because they are experienced and persuasive, and this enrages especially the obscure anti-war radical whom no one will listen to no matter how much evidence they accumulate that Tower 7 was an inside job and that steel doesn’t melt.

And any member of the military who speaks candidly about the necessity of victory and with confidence in our forces and with facts about their increasing success is going to get slimed by the extremists, even if it is General Petraeus. That’s just the cost of defending the country these days –exposure to all the many dangers war brings, and a relentless smear campaign from the very people you are keeping safe from terrorists and the religious extremists who would stone them the first week they had power over them.

The Administration and the Pentagon have never emphasized enough the direct engagement of the public via the new media, or even the old media in the extended, one-on-one form which is the very best form for explaining the war to the public. The ear-splitting shrieks of outrage at General Petraeus’ interview with me should be a huge signal that this is what the anti-war extremists fear most: The calm presentation of facts at length by those in a position to know them, engaged in an interview the unpredictability of which makes the exchange interesting. Speeches rarely hold the attention of an audience, which is why only small excerpts of them make it on air. Interviews –conducted professionally by a prepared host—can be riveting. The war on terror depends upon sustaining the will of the American people to fight it, and sustaining that will means giving the public the facts, again, and again and again. Making themselves available in at least 30 minute chunks to all sorts of skilled interviewers –Russert, Brit Hume, Charlie Rose, and Chris Wallace are the best on television, my colleagues at Salem, Bill Bennett, Dennis Prager, and Michael Medved, excel at the form as does Laura Ingraham, Dennis Miller and Sean Hannity—is the best way to educate the American public about what is going on in the war on its many fronts.

I and the vast vast majority of listeners/readers are grateful that General Petraeus made time at the end of a very long day for the interview, a day which is nowhere near the end of his three plus years of tremendous service in Iraq and thirty years of service and sacrifice on behalf of the country. I hope he continues to agree to appear on any show or to be interviewed by any blogger or journalist –left, right, or center-- who will treat him with respect and fairness. I hope the same thing for other senior military and civilian officials engaged in fighting the war. Allowing the know-nothing, anti-intellectual fringe to block the flow of information to the American public via invective, slander and scorn that would be to keep the best, most compelling testimony from the public at a time when they need it most.

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About The Author

Hugh Hewitt is host of a nationally syndicated radio talk show. Hugh Hewitt's new book is The War On The West.

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White House Withdrawl From Iraq Plan?

Gates claim the White House is working on a withdrawl plan. Do you think this is true?

NPR-Defense Secretary Robert Gates wrote to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton that a top Pentagon official did not intend to impugn her patriotism by suggesting her questions about U.S. planning in Iraq boosts enemy propaganda.

…..The letter also contains the most explicit admission to date that the Pentagon is in fact planning for the eventual withdrawal of U.S. forces, with Gates telling Clinton: “You may rest assured that such planning is indeed taking place with my active involvement…..”

Late Thursday, lawmakers on the Senate Armed Services Committee were told they would get the briefing Clinton had been seeking for months on the issue of troop withdrawal.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/withdrawl-from-iraq-plan

Beeblebrox
I definitely think it's safe to assert that Hugo Chavez, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Hu Jintao have higher approval ratings in their countries than Dubya does here.

--From the International Crisis Group:
"After eight years in power, President Hugo Chávez won an overwhelming re-election in December 2006. Flush with oil revenues, bolstered by high approval ratings and at the start of a six-year term, he expresses confidence about advancing what he calls his Bolivarian Revolution, named after Simón Bolívar, the country’s independence hero, and installing his still only vaguely defined “Socialism of the 21st Century”. There are concerns in Venezuela and much of the hemisphere, however, that to do so the ex-colonel and one-time coup leader may be willing to sacrifice democratic principles."

-- This comes from The Guardian about Iran's Ahamadinejad:
'"He's more popular now than a year ago. He's on the rise," said Nasser Hadian-Jazy, a professor of political science at Tehran University. "I guess he has a 70% approval rating right now. He portrays himself as a simple man doing an honest job. He's comfortable communicating with ordinary people." While there are no reliable national opinion polls in Iran, western diplomats acknowledged that support for Mr Ahmadinejad is growing, defying widespread predictions after last June's election that he would not last more than three months.'

I'll give you Mugabe in Zimbabwe. I would also give you Castro if you include the exiles in Miami. But the thing is, these are horrible dictators. Are you happy that we're comparing our President's approval to people like this? I'm not. I wish our President enjoyed the same popularity he did earlier in his administration, but the fact is his policies have increasingly isolated him. This doesn't come as much of a surprise to me since his approach to foreign policy is to not communicate with those he doesn't like.

The only peaceful way you can hope to change anyone's behavior is to engage them. The only real alternative is war, not "The Silent Treatment." However, you can't just 'half-a$$' it the way he has in Iraq. And you definitely can't attempt to privatize it, or else the government's troops are going to end up getting squeezed.

Oh, now its CURRENT Global leaders
Nice try Voice of Liberty.

So now you're backpeddling, having been caught in a prevarication and now you claim you weren't talking about past American presidents about whom we actually have approval ratings numbers that can be compared apples to apples with Bush. No, you were talking about approval ratings of current global leaders about which we have no Gallup or Rasmussen numbers and thus, no real way to verify your claim regarding their popularity compared to Bush's.

But let's just use some common sense. Do you really think that the leaders of repressive African regimes that wholesale slaughter their populations, or communist Red China with its slave labor, or North Korea with its starving population, or Venezuela, or Iran, or, well, name whatever totalitarian dictatorship you wish, have higher approval ratings than the leader of the free world?

You, sir, need to get out a little more.


Cheers.


Beeblebrox

'This is despicable and in no way reflects the "majority" opinion of the country. Please identify for me even ONE poll that shows that the majority of Americans think that Petraeus is lying to prop up the WH.'

I agree. However, this is not the issue I have with the "Fringe" label. Hugh's title includes the phrase "...The Hysterics of the Anti-War Fringe". I can not speak for Lilly, but my argument for why this borders on the delusional is that the "Fringe" is indicated as being those who are Anti-War. Despite the fact that I am for an escalation of this war, I realize that I am a member of the "fringe" and that the majority of Americans are indeed against this war.

Had it been phrased "the Hysterics of Anti-War radicals" or even "the Hysterics of the radical fringe of the Anti-War movement" then it would be accurate. However, as it is phrased it lumps those who are "Anti-War" into the "Fringe" which they are clearly not.

Getting back to the issue you had with my earlier statement, I thank you for addressing the need for clarification in my post. Since I was using General Musharraf in my comparison with Dubya's approval ratings, I thought it would be obvious to any third grader that I was not speaking about past American presidents but current global leaders.

I also used Musharraf because he is facing intense backlash from his decision to storm the Red Mosque in Islamabad which resulted in a high death toll -- just as Dubya is facing backlash from the difficulties in Iraq. I should have been more clear in my comparison but since I figured everyone would know General Musharraf has never been an American President, I figured further clarification was unnecessary.

I also agree with you that this thread has been hijacked and I am wondering when Townhall.com will include an option to "flag as irrelevant" or "flag as meaningless".

Daily attacks in Iraq hit new high

Daily attacks in Iraq hit new high in June

The White House tells us the “surge” is working and attacks are down. The only problem is the reality, of course, is far different in Iraq according to the Pentagon statistics. It seems as we control one area we are just pushing the violence to another area. With the current strategy unless we double the amount of troops how will we ever get out of Iraq? Do you think we need a new strategy

(Reuters) - Attacks in Iraq last month reached their highest daily average since May 2003, showing a surge in violence as President George W. Bush completed a buildup of U.S. troops, Pentagon statistics show.

The data, obtained by Reuters from the Defense Department, showed an upward trend in daily attacks over the past four months, when U.S. and Iraqi forces were ramping up operations against insurgents and militants, including al Qaeda, in Iraq.

Pentagon officials were not immediately available to comment on the statistics.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/daily-attacks-in-iraq-hit-new-high-in-june


kincognitio
What is your education about American History? From what you preach, it appears very little. You state we have no interest in the middle East, oil, or more generally trade. Did you know that from the time of John Adam's presidency we had an interest in that area. Obviously not. Did you know that Adams appeased the Arabs and when Jefferson came to power, he, without authorization from Congress, made war with the Arabs. No, you dont know any history. You preach.
I was going to give you a citation but I figured a waste of time since you could care less of getting educated. But if you ask me I will give you a citation to read to enhance your education.

You say we have no interest in oil and the Arabs have no interest in timber. Too bad the Arabs have no interest in timeber; if they did, they would trade with us and bring about a rational society and build instead of kill.

So suppose Iran controlled the whote oil producing region of the Middle East and parntened with Venzuaela such that they decided not to sell us any oil. Their right no?. And you will sit home and use your feet and bike to get aaround and our civilization will go down the tank and you will preach we have no interest and commit suicide and go the way of the Roman empire.

Gee whiz, Get with it. one can disagree with the present policy but when ignorance takes the place or rational thought one wonders what is with you.

kcincognito copy and paste
@kcincognito. You can drone on and on if you want. Your posts are getting to be so incongruent it is impossible to tell what your point is.

Come back when you can distill your thoughts into one cogent argument and then I'll get back to you.


By the way, I don't mind you providing evidence or well-formulated opinions to support your point. Just make the point and back it up. It makes it easier to have a discussion.

Cheers,

Beeblebrox


Oh, and one other thought. Misspelling my moniker is tiresome. I don't with yours or any other lefty here so what is your point? Furthermore, it's not even that clever since it is not really my name; you do know that don't you?

More non sequiturs from the libs
"So, as the party of "values" you would hide the photos and the abuse just like you have done with history and think you can get away with it."

Setting aside for a moment the fact that this statement is internally nonsensical...


1. It was a violation of the Geneva conventions to circulate the photos. The liberal media did it anyway.

2. It is not that hard to get photos of truly horrific actions by the jihadists (of which the prisoners in Abu G were some) like sawing off the heads of innocents with dull rusty knives, strapping suicide bombs to children, running airplanes into American buildings, etc. yet those don't get widely circulated by the liberal media. I wonder why?

3. As a "values" American I would not tar our military with the distribution of pictures of the childish pranks of a few soldiers because I know the power of noncontextual agitprop but the liberal media had no problem doing that at all.

Instead, I would demand that the military personnel in charge of interrogating prisoners not be allowed to take pictures of interrogations. Personally, I hope that right now we are humiliating and even waterboarding every AQ member we've captured in the surge to find out if they know about the nuclear threats that are currently brewing in this country or the ongoing plans AQ has to destabilize Iraq.

Nevertheless, I really don't want pictures of said waterboarding to be taken because those pictures will get out and our efforts to get information will be severely restricted in the process.

YOU might want to see YouTube videos of every action our military and intelligence professionals take but I don't. That is because I live in the real world where crazed jihadists want to kill every American they can find and they know that photos of even minor "abuses" are powerful weapons in their war on the west. I can live with the thought that waterboarding is going on right now if it means that all of us, liberals included, will be safer as a result.

Oh, and what was that nonsense you were saying about the "values" party "hiding history"? That's just crazy talk.

Dental insurance
Lilly, I missed that you were talking about DENTAL insurance. I assumed that you were referencing health insurance since you used Moore's 46 million number and I completely skipped over your comment about dental care, maybe because it was a bit of a non sequitur.

You do realize that dental insurance is held by only about 35% of the population don't you? That puts the number of those without dental insurance at approximately 200 Million people (not 46 million). Now, you may wonder, why is Beeblebrox pointing out how many people are without dental insurance?

Two reasons:

1) to show that you are conflating two separate health policy issues and thus undermining the credibility of your point about the fuss conservatives make about universal health care.

2) to give me an opportunity to point out that dental insurance is unnecessary and by extension, non-major medical health insurance. The ADA has ample statistics at their site about how many people without dental insurance still go to the dentist (and is a lot!).

Most dental care is preventative and to meet that demand dental clinics are popping up all over the place that serve the uninsured. I can go down to the corner dental clinic tomorrow and get my teeth cleaned and xrays done for a nominal fee and other types of services with discounts, payment plans, and free consultations. Yes, getting wisdom teeth pulled or braces installed is expensive but insurance doesn't solve this problem in any case given that nearly everyone needs these types of procedures.

Insurers make no money providing insurance on something that everyone demands. The actuarials don't add up so insurance to cover things like braces is VERY expensive and doesn't cover the full cost of the work.

From Petraeus to dental services. The sublime to the ridiculous Sorry about the OT discussion everybody.

Talk to you all later.

War in Iran
Not a good idea for any number of reasons. Much better to forment the disaffected youth with information from the world (via iPods and Farsi radio stations) and the occassional pistol to take out Pasdaran thugs and corrupt mullahs..

Thread Hijack
Given that this thread is getting a bit thin, I will risk answering your questions lilly, even though they don't have much to do with the lefty fringe's war against Petraeus:

"1) During the past six years a lot of American jobs have been outsourced to other countries; the Bush administration has given tax advantages to companies that do this. How is that the fault of liberals? "

You assume that outsourcing is somehow evil. I don't think it is. I would prefer if our tax laws and regulations favored keeping jobs here but they don't in many areas. Tax laws that force corporations to outsource and regulations that put huge burdens on industry are the result of Liberal meddling in the free market. Such meddling IS a bad thing. The fact that it also has the unintended consequence of forcing manufacturers off-shore is just one of life's ironies.

"2) 46 million Americans have no health insurance, and every Democratic mention of the problem gets shouted down by Republicans. So when a father with full-time employment still can't afford to take his child to the dentist, how is that the fault of liberals? "

First you start with a strawman argument about outsourcing and then move to repeating a lie about how many Americans have health insurance. The "46 Million" that Michael Moore talks about in SiCKO includes children, teenagers, people between jobs, illegals, and people who have elected not to carry insurance. It does also include about 5-10 million who want insurance but can't afford it. Now, how many of those can't afford it because they have made financial choices that precluded them from being able to afford it is not known. Furthermore, how many of the remainder have been denied health care?

In any case, our current health care system problems are largly due to tort excesses (brought about by liberals) and HMO regs (designed by one of the most despicable libs to ever grace the Senate floor, Ted, "the swimmer" Kennedy.)

We have the best health care in the world and yet, liberals want to take us to a new dark age where government employees perform surgery and diagnose illness. Liberals love to use demogogury such as seen in SiCKO to promote a fascist agenda (used in the dictionary meaning of the word) that would nationalize a seventh of the private sector economy. That is not just wrong, it is idiotic.

Liberals want to control my life by forcing me and others into a system that will cause more pain and suffering, cost us trillions in tax dollars, and transfer more power to the government. Tyranny is evil, and especially when dressed up as something so benevolent sounding as "universal health care". You do realize that liberals want to use the threat of violence in order to enforce such a system don't you? One more reason that liberals are a force for evil.

"3) Photographs of abuses at Abu Ghraib circulated around the world and did irreparable harm to our national reputation. How is that the fault of liberals?"

If it did such harm (and I agree that it did) then why did liberals circulate the photographs?

I guaran-damn-tee you that it was not conservatives who promoted those pictures to our friends and enemies around the world. The answer to your question is quite simply, it is the fault of liberals for trying to paint a minor hazing-level activity at Abu G as torture. Why did libs do it? Because they want to demean the war effort. They want the military to be shown as dishonorable. They want us to lose in Iraq so that they can gain political power for themselves.

Lilly, THAT is the very definition of evil and I appreciate your giving me an opportunity to show that even when liberals think they have no part in a wrongdoing they actually are right in the thick of it.




lilly writes:
"I realize that many who post to townhall would rather have their fingernails pulled out than watch PBS..."

PBS had a great Three Tenors concert on awhile back, the best show I've seen, and I've seen the TT a bunch of times...and that groovy Framptonesque guitar at the end of Sesame Street when they roll the credits...gold, baby.

"Fringe" is the right term
lilly, Hugh is saying that the "fringe" are those who are saying that Petraeus is a GOP stooge and should be ignored. Hewitt said precisely ZERO about the public and if you had read the article, you would have seen that. You can spin this all you want but the reality is, the vocal left wing nuts are trying to prepaint Petraeus' September report as lacking credibility no matter what it says.

This is despicable and in no way reflects the "majority" opinion of the country. Please identify for me even ONE poll that shows that the majority of Americans think that Petraeus is lying to prop up the WH.

Given that the troop surge just began (remember, only in the last 30 days have we finally gotten our troops in place) it is illustrative of just how out of touch many in the public are. Rasmussen had a poll on July 11th (just 3.5 weeks after the surge was finally at full strength) that showed that 40% of Americans thought the surge had failed. These people actually thought that the surge would IMMEDIATELY win the war for us but because it didn't in 3 weeks, then it is a failure. That shows just how powerful the MSM is in portraying this war as lost when the opposite is true.

Of course, it is folly to think that the public knows ANYTHING about whether the surge is working or not just a few weeks after it began in earnest. But reports are coming out now that in just one month of full operation, Petraeus is reaping great successes. (see: http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=28535 for more info on this).

This is the time that even Bush haters should stand behind our troops and keep the aiding and abetting to a dull roar given our new successes. The tide has turned. We are routing AQ, clearing out long held bastions of terrorists in Iraq, and generally putting our enemy on the run.

To Beetlebrox
Re your statement that "[liberals] cause everything that is wrong with this world", I have a question for you.

Many US communities, urged by local police departments, have tried to establish gun control but have been prevented by the national agenda of the NRA, which exercises great power over Congress. This substitution of federal for state law or city ordinance is contrary to the conservative and Republican principle of local, rather than federal, control. Meanwhile local police are frustrated because they want to get guns off their own city streets, and they are prevented by the NRA. Perhaps you would not agree that having hundreds of thousands of guns in the hands of angry illiterate inner-city teenagers is a problem, but to some of us, it is one of the things that is wrong in this world, to use your words. How is this the fault of liberals?

I imagine that if we put our heads together, we might think of a few more things that are wrong in this world.

1) During the past six years a lot of American jobs have been outsourced to other countries; the Bush administration has given tax advantages to companies that do this. How is that the fault of liberals?

2) 46 million Americans have no health insurance, and every Democratic mention of the problem gets shouted down by Republicans. So when a father with full-time employment still can't afford to take his child to the dentist, how is that the fault of liberals?

3) Photographs of abuses at Abu Ghraib circulated around the world and did irreparable harm to our national reputation. How is that the fault of liberals?




kcincognito has it wrong. Again.
While I appreciate your efforts kcincognito, the quotes are non-compelling and your analysis is pejorative:

1. Lugar, being a RINO, is getting weak kneed. Any talk of a "withdrawal" at this juncture by Lugar or anyone else simply emboldens the enemy to our own destruction.

Furthermore, he doesn't know to what extent the military "prepared" for second and third phases of this war. We do know that strategists typically have plans for nearly every contingency. What they do not have is control over the MSM propaganda machine and the effect such propaganda has in assisting the enemy. If there was a mistake made by the Bush admin after the successful first phase of the war it was not planning for traitorous actions by the Dems and their willing accomplices in the media. And I hardly think you would applaud Bush if he and his advisors figured out a way to silence said traitors. I think the aiding and abetting of the enemy by Americans caught the WH flatfooted. They made the assumption that the congress would stand behind their votes and would confine their hate speech to domestic issues. They were wrong, and our troops and this nation have paid dearly for that mistake. They should have started prosecuting under the sedition act from the get go.

2. Your arrogant statements about Bush and Rummy's lack of ANY planning shows you are immune to logic. They undoubtedly had a dozen or so likely scenarios on their desks and elected to pursue a course that was historically sound. The fact that you wanted them to predict exactly what would happen in Iraq is sophistry. Did FDR or Churchill correctly predict how Hitler would conduct his war. Did either predict what would happen if they allied themselves with the Soviets. Come on, get real. You act like this is a movie with some foregone perfect conclusion that Bush could have seen but decided not to act upon.

Like I said, they did not count on the Dems trying to turn this into Vietnam so soon. When the enemy saw that they were able to sow discontent so easily with just a few well placed IEDs they forged ahead when they otherwise had little hope of success against our troops. When they saw that we would not go into mosques to take out their snipers and weapons caches they used them even more. When they saw that we were jailing our own troops for taking out terrorists without the proper procedure, they started exploiting that RoE weakness. When they realized that the Washington Post and the NY Times would work with them to shut down successful intelligence gathering methodologies, they knew they were on their way to victory. When Harry Reid proclaimed the war lost, then AQ started pouring their men and supplies into Iraq with vigor because they knew they had a staunch ally at the highest level of our government.

No matter that the reality in Iraq was that we were and are winning, even after the initial toppling of Saddam. The PERCEPTION planted by the Dems and the MSM was and is that it was a lost cause. Just like in Vietnam when that traitor, Walter Cronkite proclaimed the Tet offensive a failure (when it was the opposite) and thus set in motion a string of events that cost the lives of millions and wasted all the efforts of our own soldiers, so too we see the Dems doing their best to lose this war for us.

The fact that Bush did not realize early on that the Dem leadership and the MSM are more than just the opposition but the enemy, is something conservatives have been complaining about for many years. I still don't think he gets this.





Nice Try
Nice try, this use the phrase "anti-war fringe". The word "fringe" suggests an extremist minority. In fact, every poll I have seen quoted in newspapers and on television news for months has put a majority of the American people saying that this war was a mistake, that they are not satisfied with Bush's conduct of the war, and that they want us out of the war. A majority opinion does not meet the definition of "fringe".


Beeblebrox
I live in the real world which is a different oone than you seem to inhabit. You confirm everything I just said. You say that the many federal elected official elected with enthusiastic conservative are not conservative. Republican and conservative do not always coincide but the present day Republican party is indeed more conservative than for a long time. It policies are also more of a disaster. Perhaps you mean Republican does not conside with right wing nuts. Even there it is too close for comfort.

Tell me who appointed each of the nine Supreme Court Justices. Who appointed the majority of federal judges over the last 25 or more years? As an example of conservative delusion, they have even argued the prosecution and conviction of Libby is a liberal plot even though it is a Republican prosecutor and republican judge.

Your comments about Bush are laughable. He will go down in history as the worst president we have ever had. The has screwed up everything he has touched.


Attacking General Petraeus
In your next to last paragraph you had me agreeing with about "skilled interviewers". That is until you mentioned Sean Hannity. He is skilled in the sense that he knows how to block opinions that disagree with his. Then he becomes a bully and uses the tactics of an ultra-liberal reviewer to silence dissent. His interview of Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer, is an example of a bully gone wild.

Liberal pundits and bloggers.
Ever had the opportunity to watch a troupe of panicked monkeys? Remarkably similar. A screaming cacophony and flung feces.

@Naked Pagen
Avoiding a war with Iran may not be possible. If they continue to saber rattle eventually they have to be put down. However, from my understanding, experts say that we could deal with Iran with our current forces.

This is because it would be a different approach.

First, we would be using our Navy. Right now we're not using those forces for much. We would mine Iranian harbors and essentially cut off the flow of oil going out or refined gasoline (of which they have precious little) going in. Second, we are not interested in nation building there (certainly not after our experience in Iraq) so not nearly as many ground forces are needed. Air power would be key, again, something we are not using a lot of right now.

Second, usually wars like the looming one with Iran come to us, not we to them. Lincoln once admitted that circumstances controlled him during the civil war not the other way around. This is usually the case with such things. Bush is in Iraq because circumstances forced him to go in. We have to all admit he went in late and begrudgingly knowing that his popularity would ultimately suffer for the decision. But his hand was forced and he ultimately did the right thing (something his predecessor could have done but elected not to do in order to keep his popularity).

Sorry, forgot to answer this question:
"Why is it that conservatives on this site continually blame liberals for everything."

Because you cause everything that is wrong with the world. Other than that, you're all just peachy.

In what world does JPH live?
JPH writes: "For at least the last six years conservatives controlled everything in this country, the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government."

Wrong in so many ways:

1. "Republican" does not equal conservative. I will bet that JPH can not name even a dozen conservatives in either the House or the Senate. JPH evidently is delusional enough to think that Bush is a conservative *snicker*.

2. Controlling EVERYTHING? The newspapers? universities? the unions? Hollywood? A majority of state houses? The governorships? the judiciary?

Come on JPH. There are 4 conservatives on the SCOTUS and that is only a recent turn of events but even you should be able to tell that 4 out of 9 does not constitute a majority. Furthermore, even if there WAS a majority on the SCOTUS, you do realize that there is more to the judiciary than just the highest court don't you?

Either you are being mendacious or you simply do not understand the meaning of the word "conservative". From where I sit I can't tell which it is.

As for kcincognito's comment about our hopes for Bush, I do think History will look kindly on him. He was, at one time, the most popular president in the last 50 years. He has occasionally stumbled to be sure but he is presiding over an amazing economy, he is trying to clean up a mess that Carter and Clinton are most responsible for (Carter for starting it and Clinton for letting the enemy think America was too cowardly to do anything about terrorism) and his efforts to bring quality ethics back to the White House should be commended.

I was simply pointing out that VoR was lying to us when he claimed that Bush had the lowest ratings of any president. Pointing out that lie was my prime intent, not to defend Bush. History will look kindly on Bush with or without my help.

TheLeftIsEvil
>What would be so bad about a war with Iran?
First off, we dont have control over Iraq and Afgahastan.

Second we dont have enough military since we are already spread out in OIF and OEF

And if those issues didnt exist, Iran is still twice the sice of Iraq.

Reason enough, dont you think?

Conservative Wimps
Why is it that conservatives on this site continually blame liberals for everything. For at least the last six years conservatives controlled everything in this country, the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government. Yes, consrevatives have shaped even your hated judiciary. Conservatives have been in position to appoint most of the judges and you still blame liberals for rulings made by these judges. Conservatives control most of the communication networks and have most of the wealth to make things happen. Conservatives still control all of this except the legislative branch. Yet when anything does not turn out the way conservatives think it should they blame liberals! The Iraq war was initiated and enthusiastically supported by conservatives-although some would now like to say that theses leader--Bush-Cheney--are not conservatives despite the fact that you put them where they are and enthusiastically supported them.

You are all a bunch of whining wimps who want to blame everyone else for the failures you created. Grow up and take responsibility for your positions. Or are you such wimps that liberal criticism has intimidated you into do doing the wrong things?

It was liberals who more often than not have been right in their criticism of conservative policies. The Iraq war has been a disaster that all of you conservatives were wild enthusiastic about and supported. Now take responsibility for your own mistakes!!!!!

The ironically misnamed "Voice o Reason"
said "George W. Bush [has] the lowest approval ratings of any President aside from General Musharraf."

Let's see Bush is currently at 34% approval rating...

Truman in 1951 : 22% approval rating
Nixon in 1974: 23% approval rating
Carter in 1979: 31% approval rating

(source: WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-presapp0605-31.html)

Just checking my math here...

22% is lower than 34% I believe
23% is lower than 34% I think
31% is lower than 34% if I am not mistaken.

So this officially puts Voice o' Reason firmly in the "disreputuable" camp and I hereby recommend that his posts be ignored from here on out for the obvious pack of lies that this example shows them to be.

By the way, Bush also had approval ratings in the high 80s the highest since such polls started. Higher than Clinton, higher than Kennedy, higher even than Reagan. Only Truman just as he took over for FDR when FDR died in office did anyone have higher numbers than Bush.

The only reason that Bush currently has such low ratings is that his base is generally dissatisfied with his liberal policies. If and when he moves right, his numbers will shoot back up.



clfchow@shaw.ca
Like Samson the mighty, consecrated to God since birth, America the super power, was a Christian nation by birth. Samson was betrayed to his enemy by his woman Delilah for silvers. Unfortunately the “other half” of Uncle Sam seems determined also to “prod him with nagging day after day until he’s tired to death.”

Above is a quote from “Behold, 666 is here”. For more details, please click
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/chow051007.htm

Interview with General
I don't think it would be fair to characterize your interview with the general as "serving up softballs." Your questions looked relevant to me, but it's also fair to say that if I had read the transcript with no knowledge of the interviewer's name, I would have easily guessed where the interviewer's sympathies lay. The criicism of General Petraeus, however, is harder to understand. He clearly admitted the difficulties and the setbacks, emphasizing the damage done to Iraqi society (by sectarian violence) several times. That's certainly a point anti-war activists have hit upon. Frankly, I was impressed with the general's candor. I served almost 25 years in the Air Force, and I know how reluctant senior officers are to speak about policy matters and anything else that touches even superficially into "politics." In short, he certainly didn't sound like someone who had been scripted nor did he sound like someone determined to "duck and dodge." I came away from the interview feeling even more convinced than ever that he is the right man for this difficult job. Senator Biden (and others opposed to the war) has made a big point of arguing that any military success during the surge is largely irrelevant, given the absence of political success. It is an argument that should not be ignored. I admire those in the Iraqi government who obviously risk their lives daily, simply by being elected. On the other hand, I want to see more evidence that the Iraqi government intends to be a government of all Iraqis. Think of the terrible irony if our military forces succeeded against terrorists, but we still ended up with an Iraqi government that was friendlier to Iran than to the United States. I don't think that will happen, but I don't think we can casually dismiss such a possibility either. Senator Biden's arguments are important, but I think he doesn't give proper weight to the value military success could have toward promoting political success. It's difficult to imagine the citizens of any country working toward mutually shared goals when they must constantly worry each day about getting shot or blown up. The old saying, "Nothing succeeds like success" comes to mind. As a growing number of Iraqis become convinced that their government will prevail and will take hold as a representaive government, the chances of lasting political progress is greatly enhanced. Clearly, we aren't there yet, and I don't think it's "unpatriotic" to ask how long is long enough. I for one am still "on board" for pursuing victory in Iraq, but the time will come (assuming things remain unstable) when progress (both militarily and politically) will not only have to be real but also appear to be real as well.

What would be so bad...
What would be so bad about a war with Iran? Especially if we do the "three-day special," Drones guided in to targets by Special Forces on the ground. Nothing left of Iranian military infrastructure and very few Americans put at risk.

Bonus: The Mullahs will have their teeth pulled and the democratic movement can just push them over, er, topple them. :)

Leo Strauss was a good guy
There are times when you are threatened, your loved ones are threatened, your neighbors are threatened, or your country is threatened, and you will find that you have to lie to protect them.

When this happens, hold your head up high and lie proudly.

Honesty is a great virtue, but there are times when there are greater virtues.

"Strauss on politics (again, courtesy of Wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss

According to Strauss, modern social science was flawed. It claimed the ground by which truth could be discovered on an unexamined acceptance of the fact-value distinction. Strauss doubted the fact-value distinction was a fundamental category of the mind and studied the evolution of the concept from its roots in Enlightenment philosophy to Max Weber, a thinker Strauss credited with a “serious and noble mind”. Weber wanted to separate values from science, but according to Strauss was really a derivative thinker, deeply influenced by Nietzsche’s relativism.[3] Therefore, Strauss treated politics not as something that could be studied from afar. A political scientist examining politics with a value-free scientific eye, for Strauss, was impossible, not just a tragic self-delusion. Positivism, the heir to the traditions of both Auguste Comte and Max Weber, in making purportedly value-free judgments, failed the ultimate test of justifying its own existence, which would require a value-judgment.

While modern liberalism had stressed the pursuit of individual liberty as its highest goal, Strauss felt that there should be a greater interest in the problem of human excellence and political virtue. Through his writings, Strauss constantly raised the question of how, and to what extent, freedom and excellence can coexist. Without deciding this issue, Strauss refused to make do with any simplistic or one-sided resolutions of the Socratic question: What is the good for the city and man?

[edit] Liberalism and nihilism

Strauss taught that liberalism in its modern form contained within it an intrinsic tendency towards relativism, which in turn led to two types of nihilism ("Epilogue").[2] The first was a “brutal” nihilism, expressed in Nazi and Marxist regimes. These ideologies, both descendants of Enlightenment thought, tried to destroy all traditions, history, ethics and moral standards and replace it by force with a supreme authority from which nature and mankind are subjugated and conquered.[4] The second type — the "gentle" nihilism expressed in Western liberal democracies — was a kind of value-free aimlessness and hedonism, which he saw as permeating the fabric of contemporary American society.[5] In the belief that 20th century relativism, scientism, historicism, and nihilism were all implicated in the deterioration of modern society and philosophy, Strauss sought to uncover the philosophical pathways that had led to this situation. The resultant study led him to revive classical political philosophy as a source by which political action could be judged.[6]
Cover of The City and Man.
Cover of The City and Man.

[edit] Noble lies and deadly truths

Strauss noted that thinkers of the first rank, going back to Plato, had raised the problem of whether good and effective politicians could be completely truthful and still achieve the necessary ends of their society. By implication, Strauss asks his readers to consider whether it is true that "noble lies" have no role at all to play in uniting and guiding the polis. Are "myths" needed to give people meaning and purpose and to ensure a stable society? Or can men dedicated to relentlessly examining, in Nietzsche's language, those "deadly truths", flourish freely? Thus, is there a limit to the political, and what can be known absolutely? In The City and Man, Strauss discusses the myths outlined in Plato's Republic that are required for all governments. These include a belief that the state's land belongs to it even though it was likely acquired illegitimately, and that citizenship is rooted in something more than the accidents of birth. Seymour Hersh observes that Strauss endorsed "noble lies": myths used by political leaders seeking to maintain a cohesive society.[7][8]

According to Strauss, Karl Popper's The Open Society and Its Enemies had mistaken the city-in-speech described in Plato's Republic for a blueprint for regime reform — which it was not. Strauss quotes Cicero, "The Republic does not bring to light the best possible regime but rather the nature of political things — the nature of the city" (Strauss and Cropsey 68). Strauss himself argued in many publications that the city-in-speech was unnatural, precisely because "it is rendered possible by the abstraction from eros" (Strauss and Cropsey 60). The city-in-speech abstracted from eros, or bodily needs, thus could never guide politics in the manner Popper claimed. Though very skeptical of "progress," Strauss was equally skeptical about political agendas of "return" (which is the term he used in contrast to progress). In fact, he was consistently suspicious of anything claiming to be a solution to an old political or philosophical problem. He spoke of the danger in trying to ever finally resolve the debate between rationalism and traditionalism in politics. In particular, along with many in the pre-World War II German Right, he feared people trying to force a "world state" to come into being in the future, thinking that it would inevitably become a tyranny.

[edit] Ancients and Moderns

Strauss constantly stressed the importance of two dichotomies in political philosophy: Athens and Jerusalem (Reason vs. Revelation) and Ancient versus Modern political philosophy. The "Ancients" were the Socratic philosophers and their intellectual heirs, and the "Moderns" start with Niccolò Machiavelli. The contrast between Ancients and Moderns was understood to be related to the public presentation of the possibly unresolvable tension between Reason and Revelation. The Socratics, reacting to the first Greek philosophers, brought philosophy back to earth, and hence back to the marketplace, making it more political. The Moderns reacted to the dominance of revelation in medieval society by promoting the possibilities of Reason very strongly — which in turn leads to problems in modern politics and society. In particular, Thomas Hobbes, under the influence of Bacon, re-oriented political science to what was most solid, but most low in man, setting a precedent for John Locke, and the later economic approach to political thought, such as initially in David Hume, and Adam Smith.

Not unlike Winston Churchill, Alexis de Tocqueville, and Thomas Jefferson, Strauss believed that the vices of a democratic regime must be known — and not left unquestioned — so that its virtues might triumph[9]. However, insofar as his teaching suggested that the argument for the pre-eminence of democracy is not an apodictic principle- not self evident or beyond contradiction- he has gained the reputation for being an enemy to democracy[10]"

Three Pillars of Neoconservatism
I don't qualify as a NeoCon, being that I'm too young, too Midwestern, and have never been a liberal. But I fully subscribe to their take on economics and foreign policy.

Here they are, courtesy of Wikipedia:
"Three pillars of Neoconservatism

According to Irving Kristol, the founder and "god-father" of Neoconservatism, there are three basic pillars of Neoconservatism.[13]

[edit] Economics

"One of these policies, most visible and controversial, is cutting tax rates in order to stimulate steady economic growth [...] It is a basic assumption of neoconservatism that, as a consequence of the spread of affluence among all classes, a property-owning and tax-paying population will, in time, become less vulnerable to egalitarian illusions and demagogic appeals and more sensible about the fundamentals of economic reckoning."

[edit] Domestic affairs

"Neocons do not like the concentration of services in the welfare state and are happy to study alternative ways of delivering these services. But they are impatient with the Hayekian notion that we are on 'the road to serfdom.' Neocons do not feel that kind of alarm or anxiety about the growth of the state in the past century, seeing it as natural, indeed inevitable... Neocons feel at home in today's America to a degree that more traditional conservatives do not. Though they find much to be critical about, they tend to seek intellectual guidance in the democratic wisdom of Tocqueville, rather than in the Tory nostalgia of, say, Russell Kirk.

"But it is only to a degree that neocons are comfortable in modern America. The steady decline in our democratic culture, sinking to new levels of vulgarity, does unite neocons with traditional conservatives--though not with those libertarian conservatives who are conservative in economics but unmindful of the culture. The upshot is a quite unexpected alliance between neocons, who include a fair proportion of secular intellectuals, and religious traditionalists. They are united on issues concerning the quality of education, the relations of church and state, the regulation of pornography, and the like, all of which they regard as proper candidates for the government's attention. And since the Republican party now has a substantial base among people who consider themselves to be 'religious', this gives neocons a certain influence and even power. Because religious conservatism is so feeble in Europe, the neoconservative potential there is correspondingly weak."

[edit] Foreign policy

"First, patriotism is a natural and healthy sentiment and should be encouraged by both private and public institutions. Precisely because we are a nation of immigrants, this is a powerful American sentiment. Second, world government is a terrible idea since it can lead to world tyranny. International institutions that point to an ultimate world government should be regarded with the deepest suspicion. Third, statesmen should, above all, have the ability to distinguish friends from enemies...

"Finally, for a great power, the 'national interest' is not a geographical term, except for fairly prosaic matters like trade and environmental regulation. A smaller nation might appropriately feel that its national interest begins and ends at its borders, so that its foreign policy is almost always in a defensive mode. A larger nation has more extensive interests. And large nations, whose identity is ideological, like the Soviet Union of yesteryear and the United States of today, inevitably have ideological interests in addition to more material concerns.

"Barring extraordinary events, the United States will always feel obliged to defend, if possible, a democratic nation under attack from nondemocratic forces, external or internal. That is why it was in our national interest to come to the defense of France and Britain in World War II. That is why we feel it necessary to defend Israel today, when its survival is threatened. No complicated geopolitical calculations of national interest are necessary."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservative

Irving Kristol and other NeoCons...
Irving Kristol and other NeoCons are good guys. They overcame their soft Communist leanings in the Thirties, and more than made up for their mistakes by their good works for Reagan and both Bush the Elder and Bush the Younger.

The Minnesota Taxpayers League posted a list of must-read books for conservatives,

http://www.taxpayersleague.org/main/Reading.htm

including "Democracy in America," "The Federalist Papers," "The Conservative Mind," "The Wisdom of Crowds," "Hidden Order," "Capitalism and Freedom," and Irving Kristol's "Reflections of a Neoconservative: Looking Back, Looking Ahead"

Here's a short description they included:

Irving Kristol is one of the architects of the Reagan Revolution, and the rebirth of the Republican Party in the 1970's and 80's. In these books Kristol tells of his intellectual journey from socialism in the 1950s to Reagan republicanism. Irving is the father of William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard magazine, former Chief of Staff to VP Dan Quayle, and commentator on Fox News.

Been there, done that
"But, if they do, we should use the full force of our military to take them out quickly and decisively. Once that is done, we should return home and resume minding our own business, talking with other nations and conducting free trade with them."

Been there, done that...

After WWI.

Result?

WWII.

Libertarianism can't grok the anarchic world we live in...and that that world is MUCH closer to us after 200 years of development of transportation and communications technology.

They also don't have a clue as to how badly needed American power is in this anarchic world. Or they don't care.

Oh, BTW. Neoconservatives are called that because they USED TO BE liberals. They saw the light during the Cold War and learned better. They became full-fledged believers in the greatest ideology humanity ever created: Americanism.

Did you see the light about libertarianism after Sept. 11? Apparently not.

Liberty? Bad memory or liar?
Would someone who speaks leftist tell liberty tha Iran has attacked The United States on our own territory.

I am starting to believe
That Bill Kristol may be on to something - by inauguration day Iraq will be calm and an ally and Reid, Pelosi et al will be thourghly discredited.

It is equally amazing to me that (a) the Left works so hard for a defeat in Iraq making things far worse for us down the road and (b) thinks nothing of sending the military to such critically important places like Haiti and Bosnia while loathing any war that may be crucial to our national interest.

I am wondering how Vietnam would have turned out if the "New Media" had been there...

liberty
I decided to respond even though your post is emotional and at times irrational which detracts from any points that you would like to make.

1. What does the facts that few of the neo-cons were Troskytes have to do with anything. That betrays your thinking. FYI, Whitaker Chambers was a communist, Tom Sowell was a Marxist, the disciples of Jesus were practicing Jews before Jesus.
So? Hence, one questions your sincerity in attempting to make an argument on what is totally irrelevant. IT is blabbering nonsense. Cool down.

2. One can argue rationally, especially in hindsight, about whether it was wise to go into Iraq. WMD's were one of the reasons but there 22 others passed by the Senate.
One can argue rationally whether civil war or Span Amer was necessary. But get over it. It is done. Just like your birth. Don't curse the past. The issue is what we do now. Can't change yesterday. So your harping on the past is irrational.
One can make arguments pro and con for leaving. You don't bother. You rant.

3. Yes, the sentence on the border agents was too harsh. But you overlook that they did violate the law. They are not that innocent. So don't rant is if they were framed.
It is a tragic situation. BUt irrationality does not help anyone.

4. Yes, we have a border problem. That does not throw light on what we should re Iraq. Separate issue that should be dealt with. So why do you bring up in the context of Hewitt's piece. Hewitt agrees with you on the border.

5. You tells us we have a problem with Ben Laden hiding on the outskirts of pakistan. What do you suggest: Atom bomb pakistan. Take over the Pakistani govt.
No, you rant and do not give any ideas what to do.


6. You rant against a pre-emptive strike against Iran. Pre-emptive is not a curse word in this day and age of nuclear weapons. It is irrelevant that Iran is sovereign.
I am not argueing one way or the other. But to approach this intelligently instead of ranting, one ways the consequences if we dont and if we do and the benefits. One does not rant.

9. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Beating a dead horse. We all know that. But the reasons for attacking Iraq were a result of 9/11 and looking at the world differently. It had been the policy of the US in the Clinton admin for regime change. We were already at war with Iraq. It harbored terrorisits. And the Bush admin thought by creating a new kind of regime it could bring change to the ME. One can argue one way or other. But the decision was not irrational and done for devious motives. Things did not work out so simply as in Grenada or Panama. But stop ranting as if some plot.

10.Please explain to me what the great scare is about national ID cards. How do they restrict our freedom anymore than social security, cell phones, driver licenses, credit cards. Except more efficient.


In closing, there is only ranting in your post; no reasoned argument. And of course there is a reasoned argument for a policy other than the current, but you in your ranting don't push the discussion forward. See the current piece by Peter Glabraith in upcoming NT Review of Books for an alternative pocily. And note he does not rant.


One last question about your religious pre-occupation with pre-emptive strikes. Would you before the Japanese attacked us had long range missiles and atom bombs been against a pre-emptive strike against a sovereign nation. You get the point. I am not here reasoning for one, I am just stating it is rational to consider such and not be caught in some religiious devotion about not pre-emptively attacking a sovereign nation. Like everything else in life it depends on the situation.

Shall we denounce those...
Shall we denounce those Evil Leftist activists and philosophers who blithely go on about nuances and balance of power and equivalence theory and cultural relativity? Shall we train our sights on pacifist apathy? Shall we rail against people in free societies who KNOWINGLY wink and nod and even praise the doings of tyrants—Mao and Joseph and Fidel and Ho and Hugo and Adolph and Benito and Tojo and…and…and…and…and…?

They will not fight. They will not protect. They cannot leave a world that permits such evil. And so, to prevent Americanism its proper place in the struggle against evil, they must assent to to evil. And in the end, they are wholly corrupted as they actively assent to evil, praising it while lying about those who would liberate those poor people.

“Just as bad. America is just as bad.” [Sung to the tune of “Just in Time.”] The mantra sing-song of the Evil Left is made up of nonsense syllables of appeasement; sounds that they hope will prevent them from hearing the screams in the middle of the night.

Anti-Americanism is precisely that, a defense mechanism against moral thought and moral behavior. America sets an example that makes the Evil Left shudder. There is nothing worse to them, nothing so loathsome as a good example.

It is clear to me
from reading the posts of those on the left that they really donnot want us to win because Bush would get the credit. They will say and do anything, usually with a lot of anger and name calling to critisize any of us who support the war. The anger is so obvious and so continuous and shows no respect for the opinions of others. Imagine, talking to Hewitt on his program is enough to damm Patraeous forever!!!!! Many of you have said that he mouthed the administrations talking points. Does it occur to any of you that the administrations talking points reflect Patraeous's briefings??????

libertry
i called you a lib because you do not support our military it sounds like

and yes your right bush is not a true conservative but at least he is trying.

liberty and pakistan
If you think we made a mistake by invading Iraq why do you want us to invade Pakistan.Look at a map and see how many troops we would need to take that country.The main reason we cannot get OBL is that it could cause the overthrow of Musarraf.If that happened you would have al queda in control of nukes.

HalO, Rocker and Little Putz...Bi-Zarro
...Usted mucho,hombres.

So,lemme see....Hugh is a wingnut? O'My Gawd.
He lets you spew and HE'S THE WHACKO? I love you
cute Testicular Concavities and the way y'all clutter this true patriot's tolerant-patient site.

chr3354
"besides with the way you libs are about bush if we hadnt gone in you would be gripping about leaving that nut in power."

What makes you think I am a "lib"? Because I don't agree with you on Iraq? Or, is it because I have said Bush is not a conservative?

Actually, I'm probably more conservative than YOU are. I also remember what traditional conservativism stood for and President Bush and co. have very little in common with conservatism. Tell me, which of the following do you think Dubya personifies:
- limited constitutional government
- personal privacy
- personal responsibility
- strong national defense
- fiscally responsible government
- individual liberty
- national sovereignty
- traditional foreign policy of avoiding foreign entanglements

I'm not seeing a lot of matches here. Are you? So tell me again, as a traditional conservative, why would I hold Bush in high esteem? In reality, Bush is a collectivist, a big government statist, every bit as much as the liberals on the left hand side of the aisle.

you're funny, HH
Sad because you've been faced with the awful truth of your total insignificance and replaceability? Or are you really still trying to convince people that the war was actually a good idea after all? Or did you just want to get the word out that you have a radio show?

Attack, attack, attack
Socialist decides:

Attack Hewitt
Attack Petraus
Attack Hillary
Attack Pelosi

Attack Harry Reid if needed be.

The US must loose that we may win.

Holy GORE!!
Said the Socialist,

"What are we going to do if the offensive works and the US wins!?"


Iraq and terrorism
Saddam harbored terrorists - not Al Qaeda - but they were fat dumb and happy in Afghanistan. It will be interesting when the dust settles to see what the relationship was after the invasion of Afghanistan - at least of few may have ended up in Iraq.

Saddam gave money to the families of suicide bombers, harbored Abu Nidal, and several of the guys involved in the first WTC bombing were Iraqis - some people go so far as saying they were Iraqi agents.

Bottom line - Saddam supported terrorism, killed his own people, and used weapons of mass destruction - reason enough to invade - WMD doesn't matter - he had the resources, capacity and intent to re-constitute his WMD programs after we stopped the sanctions.

While it is an interesting study to see when they got there, it is not a question that they are there now - we need to defeat them there.

one thing
i just realized all thous who are calling petraeus some kind of polictical hack if he had gone to a left wing show or what not they would not even want to hear any of the good new and still would have called him a political hack.

just one question how should petraeus have given out this information so as to not appear biased in any way?

liberty
You're forgetting that Al Qaeda was virtually non-existent in Iraq UNTIL we invaded. Saddam and Al Qaeda were sworn enemies.

were you looking before we invaded?

what?
under his(sadams) reign Bagdhad was a thriving international city.


then why was most of the infastucure a wreck. from what i understand most of bagdad didnt have more than a couple of hours of electricity a day.

liberty
you forget that even if sadaam hated al qaeda he will take their money in exchange for equipment and weapons. Hell whos to say he wasnt in cohoots with another terrorist group like al qaeda. Just remmeber al qaeada isnt the only group out there they are just the one that attacked us first.

and your right we are not at war with terrorism we are at war with the extreame muslims.

besides with the way you libs are about bush if we hadnt gone in you would be gripping about leaving that nut in power.

Boromir's Horn
"It's impossible to look into the magical crystal ball, but can you imagine Saddams role in the WOT if he and his psycho killer kids were still in power?"

First of all, Zawahiri lived in an area of Iraq that was not under control of Saddam. They were not buds.

Magical crystal ball? Sorry, I'm fresh out, but no, I don't see his role at all. He hated Al Qaeda. He also was a stop against Iran getting out of control. We did not serve our national security interests well by invading and overthrowing the Iraqi government. We should have stayed focused on bin Laden and Al Qaeda and not allowed them to escape to Pakistan. Makes me wonder why we chose not to do that. Your thoughts?

While we're at it, let's talk about this 'War on Terror'. How does one fight a war against a TACTIC? Have you ever thought about it? Does it make sense to you? It sure doesn't me.

NeoConScum
"Lilly & Liberty(sic)...To Thee Be Wed...
Uncle Leo,of course. EEeeeekkKK !

WINDAGE HUMUNGO."

Since you have no facts to back up your big government statist rhetoric, you now resort to insults, eh? Interesting.

Mike

National security begins at home. If our government was truly interested in our national security, they would secure our ports/borders, enforce our immigration laws and stop creating more enemies than we are killing through our current foreign policy.

And I fail to see how passing unconstitutional legislation that strips us of much of our Bill of Rights does anything to further our safety. In fact, just the opposite is true. Do you recall what our Founding Fathers told us was the primary purpose for writing the Constitution? It was all about restraining the government so that they could not become tyrannical. Are you so sure that it's a good idea to sit idly by while it is dismantled?

Bio reactors are portable
A bio reactor needs a pharmaceutical plant to mass produce but all the evidence can be kept in the trailer of an 18 wheeler and driven to Syria with little trouble. How can anyone say what was not there who was not there themselves? Did you expect a Super-Walmart size facility with a giant neon sign saying "WMD Supercenter. Come and Get 'EM. Easy Terms For Terrorist Leaders. Suicide Bombers- Cash And Carry Only"? All we know is we have not found any stockpiles, not that there we none, unless someone has inside information they have been keeping secret. Collin Powell got up on TV and said "Iraq has weapons and they are right there", pointing to a surveillance photo. I suppose you would have left the WMD's right where we could find them if you were Sodamn Insane.

Big Black Dog
The only "yella bustards" that I am aware of are those who faked illness or injury to get a medical discharge. Or fled to a foreign country to avoid the draft.

They will follow us here
They were here in 1993 when they tried to take down the Twin Towers with a truck bomb.

They were here in 1999 when they tried to blow up LAX but were caught by an alert border agent

They were here in 2001 on 9/11.

They have made repeated attempts to pull off another attack since 9-11, but have not yet succeeded. If you think that is luck, so be it, but pinning them down in the Middle East has a lot to do with it and having the Patriot Act and a vigilant populace are significant factors. Reid and the Defeatacrats would like to kill the Patriot Act and end the war in Iraq - once you do that, it will be a matter of time before they succeed again

Bush talking points?
What part of Commander in Chief do they not understand? Any military officer not supporting the CINC's directives and openly talking out against it is insubordinate - and should/would be fired. Remember MacArthur and Truman? probably not - lost cause with the uninformed lefties.

Anyone who says this war is a "disaster" has not studied warfare. We were losing more men in a month in Vietnam than we have lost in Iraq in 4 years - we lost more in a day in WWII or the Civil War. Most of Iraq is secure, they have had several elections and voted for a Constitution in less time than it took our Founding Fathers. We haven't lost as much as a firefight in Iraq. Eisenhower would have loved to have the successes we have had to date - he would not have welcomed the gloom and doom media coverage. If the media covered fires in California the way they covered this war, you would think the entire state is on fire and not livable.

If you don't read Michal Yon, you do not have a clue as to what is going on over there.

Finally - Iraq was not THE factor in losing the Senate and House - Republicans strayed from conservative principles - if the election was a mandate on the war, how do you explain Liebermann? Senators ran horrible campaigns, and Democrats found congressional candidates that were more conservative than their counterparts. The only candidate wholly a victim of his war stance was Santorum - which is a shame, as I think he was a great Senator.
The surge is working and needs to be seen through this phase - and if it is really working, I say we turn up the volume and export it to other parts of Iraq until all the whack a moles are removed or killed

Where's The Plan For Victory
It’s obvious that mistakes were made. Considering the currant circumstances, hind sight is always better than fore sight.
A lot of things have made this war worse then it could have been.

Some have said that the president ignored all advice and went ahead with this war on his own. Well, he’s wouldn’t be the first, nor will he be the last.

We can speculate on why he did it, but it’s still just speculation.

I heard every reason under the sun for why the war failed.

It’s obvious that Islamic religion played a part.

It’s obvious that Iran is fueling our failure because they don’t like us for obvious reasons; we gave Saddam the means to attack them.

Al Qaeda obviously is still a very serious threat.

The government in Iraq does not seem to be working toward the kind of democracy that we had hoped for.

But, listen folks, we are there, and we can’t leave it like this.
Pulling out would be far more costly than anyone can imagine.

All I have been hearing for months is Bush bashing, and criticism of what we are doing wrong.

I can’t think of one reasonable plan that will secure this country.

Pulling out is unacceptable.

Securing this country is the only acceptable alternative.

We can’t give it to Iran and solve anything. We can’t give it to the Turks and solve anything. Leaving it in the hands of al Qaeda is unacceptable.

Where’s the plan folks?

If you are going to contribute by posting, quit bashing and start contributing.

So far I’ve heard one person with a plan.

Will it work, I don’t know, but at least it’s a plan and not just meaningless venting of anger and frustration.

Most of the comments are just pure partisan politics.

glasser
>my definition of insanity is basing life's choices on fallacies,yet blaming the disastrous consequences on others,

You mean like the fact that there was no organized WMD infrastature in IRAQ?

>Downstream Media's propaganda
If you read the interview, you would see that the General thinks the MSM is doing an accurate job reporting

>Thank God for Rush Limbaugh
You do realize he is a politcal parady, like the Daily show, dont you?

Libs are crazy
my definition of insanity is basing life's choices on fallacies,yet blaming the disastrous consequences on others, thereby retaining the same bogus belief system. Actually, their beliefs become further and further from the truth, without something intervening in a major way,ie taking all their choices away from them for a period of time.
The anti war sentiment in American polls is a creation of the Downstream Media's propaganda, which is the only source of 'information' for much of America. If not for the Internet and talk radio, I would probably be right there with the worst of them. Thank God for Rush Limbaugh and the Bush Boys,( except for illegal foreign trespassers).



Someone just
needs to take these lefties out back and put them out of their misery.

Lilly & Liberty(sic)...To Thee Be Wed...
Uncle Leo,of course. EEeeeekkKK !

WINDAGE HUMUNGO.

Attacking General Petraeus:
We need to be in Pakistan.Iraq is a very costly distraction. The Iraq's want to fight each other until one side or the other is completly dead. With that kind of attitude there is little we can do for them. We therfore should referain from wasting any more of our resources there.

On the other hand Al- Qudia has regrouped and regrouped in Pakistan. They will shortly either attack us, overthrow the Pakistan goverment or both. It they suceed in overthrowing the Pakistan goverment then they will posses nuclear weapons. That would make all the alturnatives rather scary.

We need to redeploy to prevent that from happenning. We would be giving up soemthing that we can't win to protect a stratigic interest that we cannot afford to lose.

correction
I meant Zaquari, not Zawahiri

Liberty
They weren't "sworn" enemies, or Zawahiri wouldn't have been able to get medical treatment in Iraq. More importantly, Saddam had ties to the ideology of terror. He was giving $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers in countries OUTSIDE of Iraq. That mind set alone say's something about the danger of future relationships.

It's impossible to look into the magical crystal ball, but can you imagine Saddams role in the WOT if he and his psycho killer kids were still in power?

chr3354
You're forgetting that Al Qaeda was virtually non-existent in Iraq UNTIL we invaded. Saddam and Al Qaeda were sworn enemies.

liberty
Perhaps if we want to drive a nail into Al Qaeda's coffin, we should stop being a recruiting tool for them, number one

the only way to do that is for the us to not exists, or for us to drive them completely out of iraq.

Ken
If you come back from your pizza, "Nation Building" seems to be the same thing to me as your "Cold War" context. Stopping the spread of "Islamic Fundamentalism" -- which I was pretty sure Somalia was all about -- and stopping the spread of "Communism" are not apples and oranges in my eyes. Especially when many of these Islamic fundamentalist governments enjoy big governments and strict controls on market economies.

My point is, it's just a new vocabulary for the same struggle. It's also ironic that many of these groups were originally armed by the US in that Cold War. Well, enjoy your pizza. By the way, if this country were really at war, that would be rationed and you'd probably be eating from an MRE.

Petraeus made a mistake
I'm sure that, as Hugh Hewitt says, the extreme anti-war Left will direct unfair attacks at Gen. Petraeus, as they do to anyone who disagrees with them. However, that doesn't mean that *all* criticism of Petraeus is unjustified, or that we have to take at face value claims from the other side that he will be the Great Savior of the Iraq war effort.

I heard portions of the Petraeus interview on the Hewitt radio show the other night, and it immediately occurred to me-- before I saw Andrew Sullivan make the same point on his blog-- that Petraeus was risking his credibility with the general public by taking his message to a highly partisan, pro-war outlet before presenting his official report to the nation at large.

Look at it this way; imagine the shoe on the other foot. Suppose a liberal Democratic president has been promising that one of his appointees will present a completely professional, unbiased and non-political evaluation of a controversial policy. And then the appointee goes on the Rosie O'Donnell or Keith Olbermann show to present his message, or has a filmed interview with Michael Moore. Would *you* accept whatever he had to say on these left-wing outlets as gospel?

I know very little about Gen. Petraeus. I'm willing to assume he's an honorable and competent soldier. But I'm skeptical of the idea that he is a miracle worker who can singlehandedly turn around a well-intentioned but ill-conceived (in my opinion) mission in Iraq.

Hewitt charges that the Left has already decided to reject whatever Petaeus has to say. Maybe so. But again, what if the shoe ends up on the other foot? What if Petraeus comes back in September or November and says that the "surge" has not succeeded as well as planned and that U.S. goals in Iraq can only be achieved (if at all) by an indefinite, open-ended, unlimited commitment of time and troops and money which the American people are clearly unwilling to back? Will the war hawks then be willing to consider a change of policy, or will they then be the ones urging that Petraeus be disregarded and that the U.S. pursue war at any price indefinitely?

Robert says
"if all one has is X and the threat needs Y but not even attempting the threat is the end of the nation, then we send the forces and expect what we get."

That's not true at all. The forces we sent were not supposed to be there this long. You can thank Colin "if you break it, stay and fix it" Powell for the change in strategy. I also blame Bush for allowing the change.

Lilly
Do you work for PBS or are you just their apologist? You've been banging the same drum for a while now. They won't impress me until they show the two documentaries they originaly scheduled , then chickened out: "Islam vs the Islamists" and "The Roots of War"

Rob
> I would welcome them.
Apparently the Iraqis thought different. I dont remember too many rose pedals being throw at us, unless they were made of lead.

Its hard to belive, but the rest of the world does not have the same high opinion that american has of itself.

The Voice of Reason
The other conflicts you mention were in the context of the Cold War, and I think that makes a difference. (I have to shut down now to cook our Friday night pizza, so I won't be able to respond further) Cheers.

To Liberty
You mentioned Leo Strauss. He was the University of Chicago political science professor who formulated the Neoconservative political philosophy. A good brief summary of what he said is "Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception". It is on a liberal website, so some conservative posters will refuse to read it. In that case they can just google "Leo J Strauss". Strauss did indeed say that a strong leader must be amoral (no right or wrong, just do what works) and lie extensively (because this will keep the people happy while keeping the leader out of trouble).

A big part of the tragedy of recent years is that so many Americans don't know what "Neoconservative" really means---they just think it means about the same as "conservative". Not so. It's about having most of society's money and power held in the hands of a few, called The Elite. Everybody else is called The Masses. The Masses are to be controlled by The Elite using religion, patriotism, and deception. Sound familiar?

BTW two graduate students who were Strauss protegees at the University of Chicago were Paul Wolfowitz and Ahmad Chalabi.

NeoConScum
"Lib....Reading Comprehension Continues..
to be C-. Read Irving's stuff and hold to your
astonishing--and utterly Incorrect--retelling of the contents? Sorry,Baby Doll,you're lying. You haven't read it. But,hey,that Google button can sure give a KosChild the brief appearance of a brain. Very Brief."

You still haven't demonstrated where I have lied. And your implication that I am a "KosChild" in place of such a demonstration is very transparent, indeed.

NeoConScum, I have listed what I believed to be traditional conservative principles. Why don't you tell us all what you disagree with.

Here, I'll list them for you again:
- limited constitutional government
- personal privacy
- personal responsibility
- strong national defense
- fiscally responsible government
- individual liberty
- national sovereignty
- traditional foreign policy of avoiding foreign entanglements

PBS on Training Iraqis?
I realize that many who post to townhall would rather have their fingernails pulled out than watch PBS but, if that's how they feel, last night they missed something very good. "America at the Crossroads" first hour was a documentary on training the Iraqi police and army, with focus on how their primary loyalty is not to their country but to their religious group, family, sect, tribe, or whatever. Part of the job has been trying to teach them loyalty to their country. Regardless of political leaning, we would surely all sympathize with the frustration of the American trainers. BTW the second hour, for those who think PBS never throws a bone to conservatives, was a solid hour of Richard Perle justifying the war---without rebuttal.

Iraq is a HUGE mistake
Saddam was the only leader with the balls to do in Iraq what needs to be done to keep the peace. He slaughtered everybody and anybody he wanted to, and under his reign Bagdhad was a thriving international city.

This Western idea of war and negotiation never freaking works in the middle east. They can't freaking handle a Democracy.

Bush cannot even give us a realistic definition of "win," and it's borderline delusional to think it's ever going to happen. It will absolutely not happen as long as we're in there pulling the strings.

As long as we occupy their country, they will keep attacking us. If we leave their country, they will go back to attacking each other, just like they have for thousands of years.

Put our troops on our borders.

If we need to bray victory, then let's beat our chests and point the the 600,000 dead number for history's sake.

KEN
I would have agreed with you if it hadn't been for the fact that Vietnam was not "a long, long time" ago. Neither was Somalia, or Korea (granted the South is free, but we lost the North to the Commies and now they have nukes).

Iraq is just about right IMHO
A lot of the Bush bashers I see posting here and elsewhere sound like jilted lovers. I was never a Bush lover, so I don’t feel jilted. I just thought he was less evil than the alternative. I still feel that way. During the run-up to the Iraq war, I was conflicted about it. On the one hand, I thought, if it works it will change the world for the better for the next 100 years. One the other hand, I thought, if it is too easy, it will create a precedent for pre-emptive war that will lead to grave consequences in the future. In my mind it has turned out just about right. If we stick to it, it will change the history of the world in a positive direction. However, it is perceived by the public in such a negative light that no future president will attempt such a thing for a long, long time--and that's good.

Lib....Reading Comprehension Continues..
to be C-. Read Irving's stuff and hold to your
astonishing--and utterly Incorrect--retelling of the contents? Sorry,Baby Doll,you're lying. You haven't read it. But,hey,that Google button can sure give a KosChild the brief appearance of a brain. Very Brief.

Liberty
"They'll follow us home."
"This is a war for the very survival of Western Civilization."
"They don't care if they die - they just want to kill us all"
"Al Queda is more dangerous than Hiter and Stalin - combined"
"They want to take over the world."

Liberty, I agree with everything you said. I was merely responding to Big Black Dog calling the above statements as far-right hysteria.

Robert asks
"Where was the far right...
...when This administration was attacking General Shinseki?"

Where were the 400,000 troops he asked for going to come from? We're stretched thin with 150,000 deployed. That's an inconvenient fact when trying to make a point isn't it?


Rob
"Wrong question. If we had a force here trying to unjustly rule us and a foreign power was willing to come in and help us defeat that force, I would welcome them."

So, you would think it was just fine if another country, or even the UN, decided in all their wisdom, that our form of government was not the one we should have, so they invaded our country just to "help us out"? I sure wouldn't.

"And What the He-- terrorist country are we occupying???????"

We are occupying Iraq.

Liberty
Much of what you are saying makes sense, although I still disagree with you on several major issues.

1. I was an unequivocal supporter of our efforts to take out Saddam Hussein and the attempt to establish a more "democratic" regime. I still think that, given what we knew in Spring 2003, we were justified in taking some kind of action against him – but I’m not sure what that should have been. My support of the Iraq war was predicated on the following:

a. Everyone, including even those who opposed military intervention (such as Chiraq and Schroeder), believed that Hussein had WMD's -- he had used them before against the Kurds. In view of his gamesmanship with the UN inspectors made it reasonable to infer that he still had something to hide. Some intelligence analysts claimed that he was well on his way to developing nuclear weapons capability.

b. Hussein had defied a series of UN resolutions and was not complying with the conditions for the cessations of hostilities following the Persian Gulf War. Moreover, Hussein was giving active support and financing to Islamic terrorists. It was not inconceivable that he might share some of his WMDs with them. The Bush administration did NOT try to link Hussein to 9/11, but they did claim that Hussein had had some high-level contacts with AQ, and that one of the lessons of 9/11 was that we must not wait until a threat is imminent before we act.

c. After 9/11, a more proactive, pre-emptive stance seemed appropriate – especially in view of the evident failure of previous policy which treated terrorism primarily as a law enforcement problem.

d. Bush argued that the Creator has placed in the human heart an intrinsic desire for liberty and that nations that enjoy democratic liberties are less likely to be incubators for Islamist imperialism.

Some of your arguments, as well as intervening events, have led me to reconsider the wisdom of a military solution to the Iraq problem -- but I still have questions about what would have been an appropriate response:

a. It turns out that Hussein did not have much of a WMD stockpile, although he still retained the capacity to replenish his stockpile once the US-led international pressure diminished. Had we known the true status of his stockpile -- as well as the huge cost in American blood, prestige, and money -- I doubt that Bush would have had the popular support that he had to go into Iraq when he did. Hindsight, however, is 20/20, and it does not answer what we should do now that we are already in Iraq.

b. The question is, given your "non-interventionist" approach, and your critique of neo-conservative multi-lateralism -- what should we have done? I take it that you opposed the UN sanctions and other non-military attempts to interfere with Hussein's quest for WMD's and his affiliation with terrorists. The UN sanctions were a joke and its "oil-for-food" program misguided and corrupt. But I honestly do not know what we should have done, and I still think it would have been unwise to ignore Hussein's ambitions unless/until he acted further against the US or US interests.

c. The use of proactive, preemptive use of military intervention in Iraq looks like it was a mistake (don’t laugh). But given your views on non-intervention, how do you assess our efforts to use enhanced intelligence gathering, international cooperation, and the tracking and shutting down of terrorist funding sources as a means of dismantling terrorist networks? Do we just let these groups grow and fester? You seem to think that if we back off completely – if we stop inflaming them with our interference – they will leave us alone. You implore us to listen to what UBL and other AQ spokesman are telling us about their grievances – but what about listening to what they are saying about their eschatological goals of establishing a global Caliphate? Should we wait for them to take over the Middle East, Southeast Asia, northern Africa, and Europe before doing anything?

d. I admit that I was seduced by Bush’s neo-Wilsonian idealism regarding the spread of liberty. I approach these issues through the lens of a Christian worldview, and so what he said about the universal human desire for liberty made sense – the desire for liberty could be understood as a component of the imago dei. I still think that that part of his analysis was correct, but that it was naïve to think that that was a sufficient condition for establishing a democracy. It seemed to be a very noble thing to liberate Iraq from the Butcher of Baghdad and to give them an opportunity to experience a greater measure of freedom than they had known heretofore. Unfortunately, the neo-Wilsonian model does not take into account the fallen condition of the human heart – that some people will always prefer to subjugate others in pursuit of their own lust for power or for the sake of their own misguided ideology (Islamism) – and the neo-Wilsonian model grossly underestimates the relationships that obtain among culture, worldview, and democracy. I.e., democracy arises out of a certain worldview and a certain type of culture – but democracy does not itself produce or sustain the worldview and culture that is necessary to it. We still need to find some way to address the spread of the Islamist imperialist ideology, but I should have known from the outset that “nation-building” was not the answer. The question is, what do we do to combat the Islamist ideology? Nation-building and excessive interference is not the answer – but I don’t think that we should stand idly by as the threat builds.

Liberty
You obviously feel going into Iraq was a mistake. OK. But are you now saying we should "finish the job" in Pakistan?

Rob
Perhaps you should read the NIE report. They are the ones that say bin Laden and the core of Al Qaeda are in Pakistan and it is from there that they have rebuilt.

NeoConScum
You accuse me of lying, but yet scurry away to your cowardice corner, before you state what you believe I am lying about.

Put up or shut up, buddy.

Hound Dog
"You can make fun of these words now. Read it again when a homicide bomber comes to your local McDonald's. It will happen soon, as surely as I am posting here. That is what terrorism is all about, not 9/11, when Americans are afraid to go shopping or eat out. And, that won't be in New York City, but in small-town Iowa."

Who is making fun of the very real threat we face from islamo-crazies? I don't see anyone doing that. What I see is a disagreement on how best to go about defeating the enemy.

Might I also suggest that if we truly wanted national security, we might consider protecting our OWN ports and borders and enforcing our own immigration laws. Right now, our border is a sieve. Anyone and everyone can just come across the border at will and I am quite sure they have.

Does it make sense to you why our government insists on leaving our borders wide open, refuses to build the fence that Congress passed/and Bush signed legislation on, refuses to meaningfully enforce our immigration laws, keeps spending our tax dollars to give all kinds of free handouts to illegal aliens and tried to CRAM a huge pile of BS AMNESTY bill down our throats? You call THIS national security? Surely not.

poot
"The only thing that I take issue with is this whole "creating terrorists" idea you seem to be stuck on. Okay, that's your opinion and I'm sure you can find a lot of people (especially on the left) who agree with you."

Poot, it's not just "my opinion". It is what the 911 Commmission, CIA Intelligence, multiple foreign policy experts, the Chief of the CIA's bin Laden unit and Paul Wolfowitz ALL said.

Are you saying they are "on the left"? I posted quotes up above in my 11:56 A.M. post. I also provided links to several books you can read on the subject. One of these is by Michael Scheuer, the Chief of the CIA's bin Laden unit.

When Hugh Hewitt mentions
"savaged by leftist bloggers big and little"

HalO, you would be in the category of the latter, you little weasel.

oneeye: We've Found a KOS Kid Windier...
...than the Manheim Vortex--errr,Manfred--and it's using the hilarious moniker,"Liberty".
Unless it really has read "Reflections of a Neoconservative" by our godfather,Irving K,thus proving that It can read,but not come near comprehending,then it is simply lying.

Yep,those Trotskyist fanatics Daniel P.Moynihan & Scoop Jackson were sure on the List. Uh-Huh.

Note: Irving & Gertrude were briefly there in the 30's. Period. Good Grief,get over it,Lib.

Clarity & oneeye: There may be a mathmatical possiblity of a koskid being more blabbery & overwrought than this fool,but only remote.

His list of stuff of us--GASP--neocons said everything any of us need to know about their author. Vacuosity, thy name is LIB.

One dog to another
"They'll follow us home."
"This is a war for the very survival of Western Civilization."
"They don't care if they die - they just want to kill us all"
"Al Queda is more dangerous than Hiter and Stalin - combined"
"They want to take over the world."

You can make fun of these words now. Read it again when a homicide bomber comes to your local McDonald's. It will happen soon, as surely as I am posting here. That is what terrorism is all about, not 9/11, when Americans are afraid to go shopping or eat out. And, that won't be in New York City, but in small-town Iowa.

Big Dog, if you think a Michael Vick pit bull is your biggest nightmare, wait til you hear that BOOOOM.

Okay, Miss Liberty
Although I've given you a lot of crap today, I have to say I agree with most of what you're saying.

The only thing that I take issue with is this whole "creating terrorists" idea you seem to be stuck on. Okay, that's your opinion and I'm sure you can find a lot of people (especially on the left) who agree with you.

I don't. I believe that there are those in the islamic world who believe that an islamic caliphate is their version of manifest destiny, taking over the middle east, northern africa, and parts of europe. Everyone would live under islamic sharia law where women are treated worse than cattle and religious freedom is an oxymoron.

Maybe that's none of our business, but even is some of the followers of this ideology who want to slay the great satan (U.S.) attempt to do so on our own soil, then we could have a very tough fight on our hands because they will not come on naval armadas or fly here in squadrons. They will infiltrate this country and tear us apart from within.

I, for one, would rather kill as many of them as possible on their turf before we get to that point. I believe we have done noble thing in Iraq. We have freed an oppressed people. We are fighting to help them get their feet underneath them. We are fighting foreign invaders from Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and the rest of the middle east.

If we pull out now, regardless of whether you agreed or disagreed with entering in the first place, there will be a blood-bath that ensues in the vacuum of security. Exactly the same thing happened in Viet Nam. I know the WWII analogy seems over-used, but I believe the parallels are stunning. We were not attacked by Germany, yet we fought Nazism across europe and northern africa.

I believe that the gloves have finally come off in Iraq over the last few months and, despite what the media are saying, it is working. I believe we will prevail in Iraq, given an adequate chance now that we seem to be fighting like we mean it.

If we pull out, we will have severely damaged our credibility as an international power and we will emboldened our enemy, as bin Ladin proclaimed when we pulled out of somalia.

The best way to bring the boys home is to fight like hell for an expeditious victory and leave behind an Iraq that can defend itself.

If that means we have to take care of the Iran problem, so be it.

I understand you've read a lot and that many people agree with you, but I believe you are wrong and there are a lot of people who agree with me.

If you wish to promote you line of thinking I suggest you write in Pat Buchanan in the next election or vote for Obama. I don't think that even Hillary is stupid enough to follow through on her promise to pull out, but she would love to hang that around the necks of the Republicans.

HalO
Sounds like you wrote "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," too.

oneeye
"A conservative is a conservative. A neoconservative is one newly arrived at conservativism. There is no further implication. Get over yourself."

You seriously should read a book. Why not start with one of Irving Kristol's? Or, how about starting with the article by Daniel Levy I posted above, which was originally in Haaertz.

You can try over and over again to tell people that neoconservatives and traditional conservatism is the same thing. However, that is a lie.

DocNoleCat

"Here again, something bothers me about this. You're far from the only person who says, "Capturing & killing Islamo-fascist terrorists drives "moderate" Muslims to become Islamo-fascist terrorists.""

I am saying that by invading, overthrowing and occupying a country which had not attacked our own, lends a lot of ammo towards what the islamo-crazies have been trying to convince the moderate muslims about us, for years.

"Assuming this is true, doesn't this say something very disturbing about "moderate" Muslims?"

What would you think if another country's military had come into the U.S., overthrew our government, accidentally killed some of your relatives and remained as occupiers? I'm serious here. Would you be enamored with them? I sure wouldn't be.

"Christian conservatives have taken lots of flack -- especially from the moonbats on this board -- over Eric Rudolph amd Tim McVeigh. Even if you count McVeigh, which no one should, the capture of these two "right-wing fundamentalist terrorists" and the execution of one has obviously not been a "recruting tool" for "right-wing fundamentalist" terrorism."

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. What does McVeigh have to do with the islamo-crazies? I'm not seeing the connection. Would you please explain further?


"That being the case, why are things so different with the Religion of Peace (TM)? And, given that even writing an "offensive" novel can earn a fatwa, how long can we walk on eggshells to make sure we don't trip one of the "moderate Muslims" jihad-trigger?"

I'm not suggesting we walk on eggshells. I'm not a dove. I just think we should go after those who attacked us and not be creating more than we are killing, while we are doing so. I also don't think we should be creating additional dragons to slay around the world.

See, here's the thing. If we would stop acting like it's our right to determine the form of government a country should have and occupying sovereign nations' lands, according to a bunch of foreign policy experts, we would not be creating jihadists out of moderate muslims. It makes good sense to me.

Yes, there would still be people who want to do us harm and if they try, we need to blow them to kingdom-come.

So, bottom line, I think we should bring our troops home. Stop minding everyone else's business. End most foreign aid (ie. entangling alliances). Defend our own ports and borders. Enforce our immigration laws. Talk with other nations and conduct true free trade with them.

I think by doing so, we are going to be much safer, much wealthier and more free. But again, if anyone attacks us or is an eminent thread, we have a strong military, who has not been ripped to shreds by policing the world, to make them sorry the thought ever entered their minds. I am a firm believer in peace through strength.

Liberty -- forget Trotsky
The meanings of words change and words re-emerge. Modern neoconservatism has nothing to do with Trotsky or Marxism except to the extent that the brighter liberals of the 70s saw through the Marxist nonsense.

A conservative is a conservative. A neoconservative is one newly arrived at conservativism. There is no further implication. Get over yourself.

Ending the Neoconservative Nightmare

Ending the Neoconservative Nightmare
by Daniel Levy
(originally published in Haaretz)

http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2006/ending_the_neoconservative_nightmare

Liberty & strategy
Liberty writes, "Stop serving as a recruitment tool for Al Qaeda to attract what were once, moderate muslims over to the islamo-crazy side.

If our actions are creating more than we are killing, this is not a winning strategy, do you think?"

Here again, something bothers me about this. You're far from the only person who says, "Capturing & killing Islamo-fascist terrorists drives "moderate" Muslims to become Islamo-fascist terrorists."

Assuming this is true, doesn't this say something very disturbing about "moderate" Muslims?

American Christian conservatives have taken lots of flack -- especially from the moonbats on this board -- over Eric Rudolph amd Tim McVeigh. Even if you count McVeigh, which no one should, the capture of these two "right-wing fundamentalist terrorists" and the execution of one has obviously not been a "recruting tool" for "right-wing fundamentalist" terrorism.

That being the case, why are things so different with the Religion of Peace (TM)? And, given that even writing an "offensive" novel can earn a fatwa, how long can we walk on eggshells to make sure we don't trip one of the "moderate Muslims" jihad-trigger?

Now, compare that with...
traditional conservative principles:

- limited constitutional government
- personal privacy
- personal responsibility
- strong national defense
- fiscally responsible government
- individual liberty
- national sovereignty
- traditional foreign policy of avoiding foreign entanglements

See much resemblance? I sure do not.

Rob
>They have fired the first shot,
Actually, no.
Iraq never attacked us, and Al Queda in Iraq is made up mostly of Iraqis. At the begining there were less than 200 Al Quedas, but thanks to our intervention, they now have several thousand working in the iraqi franchise.This is what I mean by making the problem worse.

If you want to discuss the GWOT, thats another thing, but this thread was about OIF

>just how do you make them stop fighting?
Since its mostly Iraqis in Iraq, I would say pull out. If they really have the international pull that we want to belive, OIF is not keeping them from attacking the US mainland

Now as for the GWOT, which you want talk about, it is much more a police activity than a military one. I dont think, and the President agrees with me, that we will win in the traditional sense, but it can be managed

NeoConScum
"I'm a White Anglo Saxon (lapsed)Protestant and
28 year Neocon. Yep,a REAL ONE.Now,tell me what that means,ya bothersome lil'roaches."

Okay.

1.They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.

2. They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.

3. They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.

4. They accept the notion that the ends justify the means?that hard-ball politics is a moral necessity.

5. They express no opposition to the welfare state.

6. They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.

7. They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.

8. They believe a powerful federal government is a benefit.

9. They believe pertinent facts about how a society should be run should be held by the elite and withheld from those who do not have the courage to deal with it.

10. They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill-advised.

11. They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.

12. They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.

13. Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable. Force should not be limited to the defense of our country.

14. 9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.

15. They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists.)

16. They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.

17. They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.

oneeye
Great Post...Although I wouldn't consider myself a neocon just a plain conservative becuase I never really accepted liberalism.

oneeye
You need to do some further research. There is nothing "new" about neoconservatives. There have been Trotskyites and Marxists for a long time. Neoconservatives used to be in think tanks and for some reason, we thought they could help the conservative movement and we allowed them to get power in our government.

Neoconservatives have nothing in common with traditional conservatism. Nothing. It's time to face the facts.

Read,

CONSERVATIVES BETRAYED
"How George W. Bush and other Big Government Republicans HIJACKED the Conservative Cause"

by Richard Viguerie

It's time to.....
. TAKE BACK OUR MOVEMENT!
... TAKE BACK OUR GOVERNMENT!
...... TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY!

http://www.conservativesbetrayed.com/

Rob
"OK, same question to you, if they do not fear death and they have one purpose to kill Infidels and stablish Islam, just how do you make them stop fighting????"

STOP OCCUPYING THEIR LANDS AND OVERTHROWING THEIR GOVERNMENTS!

Tell me, if we had a foreign country's military in OUR country, would you be fighting??? I'll bet the answer is a resounding, YES!

Rob
"IT is complex. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THEY FEEL. IT MATTERS WHAT THEY DO. They have fired the first shot, and it wasn't across the bow. 3000 American civilians are dead."

You're right. So, why in hell are we in Iraq? The people who attacked us ARE IN PAKISTAN!

Neoconservative
From Wikipedia:
Neoconservatism is a political movement that emerged as a rejection of liberalism and the New Left counter-culture of the 1960s. It coalesced in the 1970s and was influential in the Reagan administration, George H. W. Bush administration, and George W. Bush administration. It has received so much attention because it represented a realignment in American politics and the defection of "an important and highly articulate group of liberals to the other side."[1] Because the neoconservatives knew liberalism from the inside, they were more effective than previous conservatives at criticizing the failures of liberalism, and one of their first accomplishments was "to make criticism from the right acceptable in the intellectual, artistic, and journalistic circles where conservatives had long been regarded with suspicion."

The term neoconservative was first used derisively by democratic socialist Michael Harrington to make clear that a group, many of whom called themselves liberal, was actually a group of newly conservative ex-liberals. The name eventually stuck, both because it was reasonably accurate, and because neoconservatives came to accept that they were, in fact, conservative. The idea that liberalism "no longer knew what it was talking about" became one of the central themes of neoconservatism, and by the 1980s, being considered a conservative was far from an insult.

Neo = new
Neoconservative simply means someone newly conservative. Or, as in the Wikipedia definition, a liberal who got his head out of his third point of contact. Would that more of them would do so.

If someone calls you a neoconservative, be proud. They're recognizing that you're dealing with reality instead of liberal fantasies.


poot
"Okay genious
So what's your strategy?"



1. Stop serving as a recruitment tool for Al Qaeda to attract what were once, moderate muslims over to the islamo-crazy side.

If our actions are creating more than we are killing, this is not a winning strategy, do you think?

2. Put a real plan in place to extricate ourselves from Iraq. Remember "Mission Accomplished" some years ago? It is not our expertise to serve as a police force and is costing us greatly in term of treasure and American lives.

3. Stop acting like overlords and threatening everyone with preemptive nuclear bombs.

4. Stop funding the very country, Pakistan, who is harboring Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

5. Put a plan in place to take out our attackers who we allowed to escape to Pakistan, while we did a U-turn to attack a country, Iraq, who was the sworn enemy of our attackers and where Al Qaeda WAS NOT.

6. Provide for our OWN national defense. Defend our ports and borders. Enforce our immigration laws. Use our military for our own national defense for a change. Not to police the world and certainly not to enforce UN sanctions.

7. Open up true free trade with all nations. If a country is making money off of you, they are far less likely to want to attack you.

But, if they do, we should use the full force of our military to take them out quickly and decisively. Once that is done, we should return home and resume minding our own business, talking with other nations and conducting free trade with them.

If we were to follow this policy instead of the idea that it is our job to police the world, or even something as stupid as believing we can spread democracy through the end of a gun, our country would be much safer, much wealthier and far more free.

poot
LOL. You just can't stop it with the race-baiting, can you? It was Irving Kristol himself who derived the name, "neoconservative", for he and the other fellow Trotsky travelers. How is it wrong to use a term that the neoconservatives established for themselves?

I do realize how this might perplex you though. It's no secret that now, since these Trotsky-lovers have all but taken over the conservative movement, they would love the term to just fade away. Too bad. It's not going to happen.

Neoconservatives have nothing whatsoever to do with traditional conservative principles.

Yes, I know it's genius
Can't always catch the typos before I send

Okay genious
So what's your strategy?

Pull all of our troops from all foreign lands? Pull out of Iraq so that their focus will be pointed here instead of there?

Just leave them alone and they'll play nice? C'mon oh wise one, you can do better than the moronic "we're helping with their recruitment" nonsense.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone is predisposed to join Al-Quaeda, then let 'em join and let's kill them now in Iraq before we have to do it with our own deer rifles here at home.

Rob
This is not a one on one relationship. Its far more complex and nauanced with a lot of moving parts.

You remember what it was like when YOU were in the army right? The point is to make the OPFOR want to stop fighting, not make them want to fight harder. Since this brand of Islam doesnt not fear death, just killing them is not the answer.

Yes, Liberty
I know I'm the only one who mentioned the jews. That's how euphemisms work. You use a word like "neocon" in place of what you really mean, but are too chicken-*%*# to come out and say.

Next.

Rob
"WE do not make terrorists. We kill them. Let me ask you something. If a person is pointing a gun on you and says he is going to kill you in ten seconds. Do you NOT raise your gun and shoot him becuas eyou are afraid his brother will come after you if you do????"

Hell yeah, we should. But, we also shouldn't be following a foreign policy that is resulting in many more being drawn to the islamo-crazy's ranks than we are killing. That is no way to win this thing.

Airgun
"There is exactly one way to remove America as Al-quaeda's recruitment tool- remove America.
Kill all the homosexuals, kick the women out of politics and the workforce, and create a theocracy based on sharia law.
It's that simple."

Airgun, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. CIA Intelligence, even the chief of the CIA's bin Laden Unit, Michael Scheuer, multiple foreign policy experts, the 911 Commission, and even Paul Wolfowitz have told us what is causing the hatred.

Do you think all these people are whack jobs, or what? Will you at least read what they said in these quotes and maybe, just maybe, read one of these books, or two, before you judge?

Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism
http://www.amazon.com/Dying-Win-Strategic-Suicide-Terrorism/dp/1400063175

Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire
http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Consequences-American-Empire-Second/dp/0805075593

Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror
http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Hubris-West-Losing-Terror/dp/1574888625

The 9/11 Commission Report: Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
http://www.amazon.com/Commission-Report-Terrorist-Hardcover-Authorized/dp/0393060411


"His [bin Laden’s] rhetoric selectively draws from multiple sources -- Islam, history, and the region's political and economic malaise. He also stresses grievances against the United States widely shared in the Muslim world. He inveighed against the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam's holiest sites. He spoke of the suffering of the Iraqi people as a result of sanctions imposed after the Gulf War..."-- 9/11 Commission Report, pages 48-49

"America's policy choices have consequences. Right or Wrong; It is simply a fact that... American actions in Iraq are dominant staples of popular commentary across the Arab and Muslim world." - The 9/11 Commission Report

"There are a lot of things that are different now [after the invasion of Iraq], and one that has gone by almost unnoticed -- but it's huge -- is that by complete mutual agreement between the US and the Saudi government we can now remove almost all of our forces from Saudi Arabia. Their presence there over the last 12 years has been a source of enormous difficulty for a friendly government. It's been a huge recruiting device for al-Qaeda. In fact if you look at bin Laden, one of his principle grievances was the presence of so- called crusader forces on the holy land, Mecca and Medina. I think just lifting that burden from the Saudis is itself going to open the door to other positive things."-- Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Vanity Fair, May 2003

"One of the greatest dangers for Americans in deciding how to confront the Islamist threat lies in continuing to believe -- at the urging of senior U.S. leaders -- that Muslims hate and attack us for what we are and think, rather than for what we do. The Islamic world is not so offended by our democratic system of politics, guarantees of personal rights and civil liberties, and separation of church and state that it is willing to wage war against overwhelming odds in order to stop Americans from voting, speaking freely, and praying, or not, as they wish."-- Michael Scheuer (former head the CIA's bin Laden unit), Imperial Hubris, page 8

"We assume, moreover, that bin Laden and the Islamists hate us for our liberty, freedoms, and democracy -- not because they and many millions of Muslims believe U.S. foreign policy is an attack on Islam or because the U.S. military now has a ten-year record of smashing people and things in the Islamic world."-- Michael Scheuer (former head the CIA's bin Laden unit), Imperial Hubris, page 165

"The U.S. invasion of Iraq is Osama bin Laden's gift from America, one he has long and ardently desired, but never realistically expected."-- Michael Scheuer (former head the CIA's bin Laden unit), Imperial Hubris, page 213

"Although suicide terrorism is virtually always a response to foreign occupation, only some occupations lead to this result. Suicide terrorism is most likely when the occupying power's religion differs from the religion of the occupied, for three reasons. A conflict across a religious divide increases fears that the enemy will seek to transform the occupied society; makes demonization, and therefore killing, of enemy civilians easier; and makes it easier to use one's own religion to relabel suicides that would otherwise be taboo as martyrdom instead."-- Robert A. Pape, Dying to Win, page 22

"An attempt to transform Muslim societies through regime change is likely to dramatically increase the threat we face. The root cause of suicide terrorism is foreign occupation and the threat that foreign military presence poses to the local community's way of life. ... Even if our intentions are good, anti-American terrorism would likely grow, and grow rapidly."-- Robert A. Pape, Dying to Win, page 245

"The suicidal assassins of September 11, 2001 did not 'attack America,' as political leaders and news media in the United States have tried to maintain; they attacked American foreign policy. Employing the strategy of the weak, they killed innocent bystanders, whose innocence is, of course, no different from that of the civilians killed by American bombs in Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, and elsewhere."-- Chalmers Johnson, Blowback, page XV

"The term 'blowback,' which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of 'terrorists' or 'drug lords' or 'rogue states' or 'illegal arms merchants' often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations."-- Chalmers Johnson, Blowback, page 8


DocNoleCat
I'm not advocating isolationism at all. It's not isolationism to believe your first and foremost priority is to provide for your OWN country's national defense and actually, the well-being of your own country, period. It also is not isolationism to believe in what our Founders told us about freely trading with other nations. It's very good for us if it is true free trade. Of course, that isn't what we are doing now with our current big government managed trade agreements like NAFTA, etc. What they are doing is giving special favor to select international companies, while establishing an international trading body over our own Congress. Why is this needed for free trade? It's not. I don't believe it's wise to cede any of our sovereignty to an international body. Like I said, it's not necessary for free trade at all and is not very wise if we value our national sovereignty.

You mention national resources and our need for them. That's a good point. However, why is it that we think we need to overthrow a country just so we can have access to buying their natural resources? That's always something that has perplexed me. We were doing it for years. Iraqis and everyone else want to make money off of their oil. Oil is how they financed almost everything they did. Why wouldn't they have wanted to continue to sell it to us? I'm sorry, I don't understand the logic here. It's all about supply and demand.

Liberty?
There is exactly one way to remove America as Al-quaeda's recruitment tool- remove America.
Kill all the homosexuals, kick the women out of politics and the workforce, and create a theocracy based on sharia law.
It's that simple.
Get to work on that, and when you go on Hugh's show to give us a progress report, I'm sure he'll be as polite to you as you are to the right wing. (Naww, he'll be infinitely more polite, even to you).

Far right activist?
Hugh, is there something you're not telling us?

ROB
The trick is to kill them with out making more of them, something we have failed to do during OIF

poot
You're the one who needs to "read" and I will repeat, you are the ONLY ONE who has mentioned the word "jew". Just you. But, you knew that, didn't you? Stop race-baiting, poot, if you can and discuss the issues.

John Konop
Hello? McFly? I was pointing out how those who throw around the term "neocon" as a pejorative generally use it as a euphemism for "jews".

I was simply pointing this out. Not using it in the manner to which I object.

Geez, people . . . . read.

Liberty and conservatism
Nice checklist, "Liberty". On a quick rundown:

"- limited constitutional government"

100% yes.

"- personal privacy"

What, precisely, does this mean? (I know from past experience, different posters mean different things.)

"- personal responsibility"

100% yes, but it's (obviously) not a function of government.

"- strong national defense"

100% yes.

"- fiscally responsible government

100% yes.

"- individual liberty"

As long as your pursuit of liberty does not infringe on my or others' life or liberty, 100% yes.

"- national sovereignty"

100% yes.

"- traditional foreign policy of avoiding foreign entanglements"

Well... see, we have some problems here. The first is, America as a country has two states that are separated from the 48. It seems some foreign entanglement might be necessary in order to keep, for example, ground access to Alaska open.

Second, I do not think that the US has 100% of all raw materials needed for its own prosperity, or even survival. Again, some foreign entanglement is a result.

Third, what about the Monroe Doctrine?

Fourth, when Washington proposed this policy, the US was separated from Europe by months of sea travel, and from Asia by a continent and an even larger ovean. Now, international flights are landing in the heartland on an hourly basis. Perhaps isolationism is not quite the practical response today that it was 200 years ago.

Liberty
Oh, learned one . . . . please enlighten us with what you have read in Irving Kristol's book!

I'm sure I haven't read every book you've read just as you have not read all the one's I've read. So what does that prove? SQUAT!

And don't, all of sudden act naive like you don't know how the libs have used neocons as a derogatory term for jews. Like I just made it up. This is the kind of intellectual dishonesty I'm talking (writing) about.

Okay, I'm done with the food fight.

my 2 cents
I just read a few of these posts (after my words of wisdom) and have come to the conclusion that a lot of you on BOTH sides have some issues.

Nasty stuff indeed.

But if that's how you get your jollies that's ok I guess.

Have fun

Poot...I LOVE 'Um When They Throw...
...EEeeeeeeeekkKK...NEOCONSERVATIVE around!

Clueless comes to mind. As does Vacuous. Stupid will do.

Let me axe you somrthing, Liberty & Fellow KOS Kids:The pejorative--Neoconservative--which you bandy about...C'mon,make my day,what does it mean?

I'm a White Anglo Saxon (lapsed)Protestant and
28 year Neocon. Yep,a REAL ONE.Now,tell me what that means,ya bothersome lil'roaches.

The Left Says
We are not fighting Al Qaida in Iraq. The Left says we have no operations going in Afghanistan depsite the 30,000 soldiers now fighting the Taliban.

The Left says we should invade Pakistan, despite the fact that Pakistan is our ally.

The Left actually hasn't a clue on how to fight terrorists. Heck, half of them think Al Qaida is a neocon invention, and over a third think that Bush orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. Two of the Democratic candidates do not even believe that terrorists exist, and the leading contender, HRC cannot make up her mind. Last year she demanded we increase forces, now she says all is lost.

Harry Reid declared in May that the war is lost, but hasn't even met with CENTCOM to even get a briefing.

Wow!
The postings degenerated into name calling in a hurry today.

Hugh, an excellent column. Exposing the moonbat, no war anytime, anywhere, any reason minority is always valuable.

The biggest problem with the left is that all of their answers to anything are wishful thinking, totally devoid of any anchor to reality or experience.

Keep up the great work.

poot
"As far as trying to carry on a reasoned debate with your kind, read my post above.

I'll save you the time - it's pointless."

It's pointless, yes, because you don't have a leg to stand on. The only thing you've done thus far is to attempt to race-bait.


CONSERVATIVES BETRAYED!

CONSERVATIVES BETRAYED
"How George W. Bush and other Big Government Republicans HIJACKED the Conservative Cause"

by Richard Viguerie

It's time to.....
. TAKE BACK OUR MOVEMENT!
... TAKE BACK OUR GOVERNMENT!
...... TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY!

http://www.conservativesbetrayed.com/

Remember our Founding Fathers and everything for which this country has stood. Don't let the greatest experiment in the history of mankind, be stolen from us and our progeny.

R E I N S T A T E . T H E . C O N S T I T U T I O N


Rob
OPFOR is Opposing forces
OPORD is Operations Order

There is a lot you dont know about war, huh?

Poot
Neocon as anti-semitic is quite overwrought.

Neoconservatives are formerly Scoop Jackson democracts who converted from D to R in the Reagan years. They are internationalist and interventionist and tend to favor unilateral to multilateral actions. They have tended to be socially somewhat liberal -- that is pre-Bush Republicanism.

You might want to do your homework before you point out that others are wearing tin foil hats as your posting here does show that you own one of your own.

Actually, I just turned 11
But I can still see through your BS. I don't know why you lefties have to come on this board and try to present yourselves as "true conservatives". True bigoted a-holes, is what I say.

As far as trying to carry on a reasoned debate with your kind, read my post above.

I'll save you the time - it's pointless.

Poot-poot
"I know you posture yourself as some sort of dime-store intellectual, probably educated beyond your intelligence, but I'm not sure why you keep tossing around Trotsky? Though he opposed Stalin, he was still a Marxist through and through. Exactly how do you equate today's Neocons ([whisper] "THE JEWS" [whisper]) with Trotsky? Or do you think it just makes you sound smart to include it in your post?"

I don't "fashion" myself anything besides a patriotic American. As to why I "toss around" Trotsky's name, it is because I actually have read some of Irving Kristol's stuff. Perhaps you should try it.

I will point out that YOU are the only one who has used the word "jew". Only you. Nice try, though. ;-)

poot
Your comments are anti-semtic! Try dealing with topic without being racist!

Vaquero
"Let the left wing nutroots spew! They are obviously hateful and incoherant and offer nothing but divisive rhetoric and failed policies. This is not going to be successful at the polls, especially since the Left has revealed all the glory of their defeat, gloom, hate and fascist ideologies, more and more center left & right voters will be turned off."

If you want to read "fascist ideologies", you need to read the [un]patriot act and the Military Commissions Act. They are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. They rip to shreds, large parts of the Bill of Rights! Do you care?

I remember a time when conservatives actually remembered the warnings of our Founding Fathers and didn't blindly trust government.

And don't EVEN try to label me as "left wing". I've been a conservative all my life, but a REAL one. You know, one who believes in the following:

- limited constitutional government
- personal privacy
- personal responsibility
- strong national defense
- fiscally responsible government
- individual liberty
- national sovereignty
- traditional foreign policy of avoiding foreign entanglements

Tell me, if we rate those in government, and elsewhere, going around calling themselves conservative, on these ideals, how do you think they do? Not very well at all, I would think.




Buckley: Bush Not A True Conservative

Do you think the GOP will get back to its conservative roots and get rid of NEOCONS?

(CBS) President Bush ran for office as a “compassionate conservative.” And he continues to nurture his conservative base — even issuing his first veto this week against embryonic stem cell research.

But lately his foreign policy has come under fire from some conservatives — including the father of modern conservatism, William F. Buckley.

Buckley finds himself parting ways with President Bush, whom he praises as a decisive leader but admonishes for having strayed from true conservative principles in his foreign policy.

In particular, Buckley views the three-and-a-half-year Iraq War as a failure.

“If you had a European prime minister who experienced what we’ve experienced it would be expected that he would retire or resign,” Buckley says.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/buckley-bush-not-a-true-conservative


Rob
Glad to be of help. Funny how the OPFOR is fighting back. To bad no one considred that option when they did the OPORD.

intelligence report
Sobering intelligence report undercuts Bush’s story line

How has the war in Iraq helped when al-Qaeda has reconstituted northwestern Pakistan? And if we had focused on Afghanistan would we have been able to stop the regrouping of al-Qaeda on the border in Pakistan?

USATODAY-New estimate demonstrates need to refocus on threat behind 9/11.

This week, the Bush administration issued what amounts to a status report on the war on terror it launched almost six years ago in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. The report came in the form of a National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), which distills the best analysis of 16 intelligence agencies about the battle against Islamic extremism.

The document itself — a two-page summary of a wider, still-classified report — isn’t particularly new or surprising. Its findings reflect trends that are visible in daily news reports. What’s striking, though, is the way its story line diverges from the standard White House portrayal of the war on terror, which casts Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda network as on the run and the Iraq war as the primary front.

The intelligence agencies say al-Qaeda has reconstituted its central organization, putting the United States in a “heightened threat environment.” Al-Qaeda’s leaders have established a new haven in remote, tribal areas of northwestern Pakistan.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/sobering-intelligence-report-undercuts-bushs-story-line

The Voice of Reason
I concurr with your assessment

I was against OIF for a number of reasons, one of them being the half-a$$ way we went about it. Under manned, under equipped, under planned with rosy expectations and no end game.

If we are going to win, we have to go all out. Half measures only sucks up our rescources and gets people killed. Since we are not going to go all out, then we should get out all together.

I use to think we had to see this through, but Im more serious about it than our administrion or the next one for that matter, are ever going to be.

Besides, we did set out to do what we wanted to.No WMD. No Saddam. Democratic government and the ability to take care of themselves. Mission Accomplished.

Ill-LIB-erty
I know you posture yourself as some sort of dime-store intellectual, probably educated beyond your intelligence, but I'm not sure why you keep tossing around Trotsky? Though he opposed Stalin, he was still a Marxist through and through. Exactly how do you equate today's Neocons ([whisper] "THE JEWS" [whisper]) with Trotsky? Or do you think it just makes you sound smart to include it in your post?

Sorry, but...
Cole is as fake as a summer day is long.
He was amongst the most strident pro-war righties up until he got links from the 'big' lefty sites when he went aps$#^& over Terry Schiave. Voila, his requests for blogads disappeared and he became a Sullivan clone who does nothing more than shill the kos line.

He'll say whatever St. Andrew says in order to please his backslapping myrmidons. We have history as evidence.

A Fake. A Fraud. A Deception. That the brain-dead kossaks that do nothing but comment on his site all day revel in their daily affirmation that conservatives s*ck (and that's what all the atriettes live for, after all, their affirmation that they're right) is not surprising.

Kevin Phillips perfected this technique. He's better at hiding the fraud, too.

poot
"I guess maybe your moonbat starter kit didn't include the list of euphemisms"

The only "starter kit" I have is the U.S. Constitution, the Federalist papers and the anti-Federalist papers.

You ought to try reading them sometime, poot.

poot
Your ignorance is astounding. Perhaps you should read one of Irving Kristol's books in which he talks about Trotsky and the name he gave to people with his beliefs... neoconservatives.

Are you really that ignorant or do you think throwing insults around like "tin foil hat", will deflect the truth? Are you like 12?

Poot-poot
"I admire those who attempt to engage in reasoned debate with the moonbat nutjobs who have infected this site, but you're wasting your time. They have been so brain-washed and indoctrinated with Marxist-Stalinist ideology..."

LOL, LOL, LOL!!!!

Hey "poot". Pot-kettle-black. Your sorry attempt to call someone a Marxist-Leninist who disagrees with the self-professed neocon Trotskyites, is indeed choice. LOL!

So sorry "poot". I am a die-hard traditional conservative who actually remembers what that means and it has nothing whatsoever to do with a bunch of big government, Trotsky-loving neoconservatives, who are apparently quite willing to sacrifice my beloved country to achieve their nation-building, one-world, goals.

Liberty
I guess maybe your moonbat starter kit didn't include the list of euphemisms

Don't you know that "neocon" is code-language of . . . . .

[begin whisper] "THE JEWS" [end whisper] ???

Better brush up before your next tin-foil hat convention.

Left wing spewing
Let the left wing nutroots spew! They are obviously hateful and incoherant and offer nothing but divisive rhetoric and failed policies. This is not going to be successful at the polls, especially since the Left has revealed all the glory of their defeat, gloom, hate and fascist ideologies, more and more center left & right voters will be turned off.

chr3354
"they refuse to let the debate end because they know we are winning."

Who are you referring to as "WE"? The neoconservatives are Trotskyites. Are you saying you are also?

"and as i have stated before even if us in iraq is a recruitment tool for al qaeda then just image if al qaeda can say they scared the worlds only current superpower off."

We accomplished what we set out to accomplish. Remember "Mission Accomplished"? If we are trying to provide for our own national security, staying in Iraq is having the opposite effect. It was the wrong thing to do from the very beginning and it is the wrong thing now. Our allegiance should be to our own country and our own troops.

Perhaps if we want to drive a nail into Al Qaeda's coffin, we should stop being a recruiting tool for them, number one. Number two, we might think about stopping funding the very country, Pakistan, who is housing bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Number three, we might actually want to put a plan together to go after these people, AS THEY ARE THE ONES WHO REALLY ATTACKED US! Not Iraq.

"and just because there was no link between 9/11 and iraq does not mean there was no link between al qaeda and iraq."

Oh BS! Al Qaeda was not in Iraq until after we invaded. Now, it is being used as a recruitment tools by the relatively few islamo-crazies. Real bright.

Saddam was a sworn enemy of Al Qaeda and also served as a stop against Iran. So what do we do, we overthrow Saddam, the sworn enemy of our enemy and we let bin Laden escape to Pakistan. So now we're being told we can't leave, because OH LOOK, Iran might take over Iraq.

Do you see something wrong with this picture?


You want to send this to other people?
Beginning with the title, this article is removed from reality. The "Anti-war fringe" just successfully de-throned not one, but two Republican majorities in both houses and has given George W. Bush the lowest approval ratings of any President aside from General Musharraf.

Let me say that I am for keeping our troops in Iraq. To win, however, will require much more than the present surge. This country must truly be mobilized for war in order to prevail -- beginning with re-instituting the draft. Let's face it, many of those in the military now are real patriots but there are also a lot of kids with no morals, no job prospects, and no choice other than to live on the street or sling dope from their mom's house.

Just look at the loser charged with raping and burning that poor 15 year old girl. Lugnuts like that give the rest of our troops a bad name and provoke intense reaction from the enemy (not to mention inspiring more to join the enemy). While we keep paying these 'contractors' with money that should be going to equip our military, those of us at home are going to be hit with more taxes and less "benefit" from those taxes.

This administration didn't understand what it would take to win a war in the Middle East when it began, so now it's in real danger of losing because of the way they've done this. As The Voice of Reason, I will be the first to admit that our position of wanting to stay in Iraq is definitely in the minority. Let's call ourselves the Rational Fringe. Of course if you ask anyone "Would you rather win or lose in Iraq?" a majority will say "Win." But if you ask, "Should we go or should we stay in Iraq?" the majority answer will be "Let's get the heck out of there." Yet, you really need to wake up and realize that we're not in the majority.

Between the lines
I personnally do not trust the Government, reqardless who is in office. This is why I am skepctical when I hear rosy assessments about OIF. Thats all we have HEARD from the government is rosey assessments..but when you read what Petraeus says, you can see that Iraq is not all rainbows and unicorns.

For starters, we are getting the news from the MSM

HH: Is the media doing a good job ...in an objective fashion ..?
DP: I think they generally are...

So he disagres with liberal bias in the media.

HH: Do you think al Qaeda in Iraq is buckling
DP: Well, it’s probably too soon to say that,

Dont know if we are winning or not.

HH: Do you have the authority that you need, for hot pursuit,
DP: Well, we certainly have the authority that we need

ROE is not holding us back

HH: How are the capabilities of the Iraqi security forces?
DP: Well, frankly, it is uneven.... three or more times the losses that we suffer

Maliki said they could handle the job, and all the General talks about is the 'solid' job they are doing...solid or exceptional is his idea of uneven...why are we still there again?

HH: And you mentioned foreign fighters infiltrating
DP: We do not think there has been much of a change in that.

Great. Things are not getting any better then.

So to summarize: The media is doing a good job reporting, Maliki has trained troops secure his country. We have the tools and doctire to do our job, yet things are not changing.

I would say we let the Iraqis handle it. Doesnt seem like the US is doing any good over there, and our resources can be used more effectively elsewhere