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Thursday, July 12, 2007
Hugh Hewitt :: Townhall.com Columnist
Not Worth Fighting For: Defeatist Republican Senators
by Hugh Hewitt
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I have written three books in the past three years that deal in whole or part with the differences between the Republican and democratic parties: If It’s Not Close, They Can’t Cheat, Painting The Map Red, and A Mormon In The White House.

I believe in party politics, and the silly folks arguing for “non-partisan” or “bipartisan” approaches to politics distinguish themselves chiefly as ignorant of American political history or thoroughly deceptive in their appeals to the public.

What, I wonder, was the non-partisan approach to slavery? In 1860, the Democrats were for it, and the newly created Republicans against it. There wasn’t a lot of “common ground” on which to meet and confer.

Now we are engaged in another great debate about in which there is almost no middle ground, because the parties are –by and large, with some rare exceptions—approaching the issue from wholly different points of view: the war.

Democrats look at the world and see a necessary policing action against the Taliban that has been bungled and allowed to metastasize into a global conflict that has destroyed America’s standing in the world while crippling its ability to pursue the al Qaeda remnants hidden in the caves of Waziristan.

Republicans see a global jihadist crusade made up of two distinct but equally deadly branches of Islamist radicalism –the al Qaeda-led Sunni radicals, and the Iran-led Shia radicals. These branches hate each other but sometimes cooperate, and their deep desire for and attachment to violence and chaos is not rooted in poverty or powerlessness, but an understanding of religious mission.

Democrats see Iran’s nuclear program as a problem to be accommodated; Republicans as an existential threat not just to Israel but to the world because of the obvious consequences that would follow from a WMD attack on the Jewish state.

Democrats see the invasion of Iraq as a tragedy, a profligate expenditure of American blood and treasure in a horrific exercise of filial piety. Republicans see the invasion as the absolutely necessary second expression of a doctrine that holds that no maniac regime will be permitted to possess or appear to possess WMD that used against the West, either directly or through proxies.

Democrats see Lebanon and Gaza as unfortunate and even grievous reactions to the long- standing injustices suffered by victims of Zionist oppression. Many Democrats refuse this characterization and declare themselves staunch supporters of Israel, but their votes betray their deepest feelings. Saddam was, after all, the man who launched missile after missile at Israel and paid bounties to the families of suicide bombers. No genuine friend of Israel can regret his overthrow or the attempt to build a democracy in his wake.

Republicans understand Israel as America’s strongest ally in the Middle East, and its most vulnerable friend. They worry that Iran’s Ahmadinejad means what he says and intends to obtain the means by which he can implement his feverish ambitions. They see Israel as the survivor of six decades of relentless hostility and war, always ready to make peace but always rebuffed by its ideologically driven enemies.

Democrats see a glass not half full, but overflowing but for America’s continual upsetting of the table.

Republicans see shards.

Which brings me to Oregon’s Gordon Smith and other Republicans siding with the Senate Democrats in demanding defeat in Iraq.

I think most Republican senators up for re-election in 2008 who are seen by GOP voters to side with Harry Reid on the war will be swept away by Democratic challengers powered by fierce grassroots organizations even as they are deserted by Republican activists for whom resolve in the war is a non-negotiable priority. These races won’t even be close. The divide between the parties on the war is deep, and the base of the GOP simply will not turn out for, much less work for, round-heeled Republicans.

Parties matter, and the Republican party will purge the defeatists from its ranks, even if it means a horrible cycle or two. Clarity on this issue matters more than a couple of more votes in the Senate. The Republican Party is the party of resolve, the party committed to victory in the long war, and it will not welcome among its numbers, defeatists, no matter what their views on the advantages of low marginal tax rates.

This is as obvious as anything in American politics can be, but still many GOP senators –driven to distraction by MSM and polls?—think otherwise. They read in the results of the elections of 2006 a rejection of the war as opposed to a rejection of stalemate, profligate spending and scandal. Because they cannot conceive of victory, they cannot conceive of voters for whom only victory matters. What a surprise they are in for.

I hope the GOP senators who are good votes on most issues realize that the dynamic is completely different on the war votes. Voting with Harry Reid on the most important issue of our time makes that senator an afterthought –an incumbent not worth fighting for. Indeed, it makes him or her worth defeating.

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About The Author

Hugh Hewitt is host of a nationally syndicated radio talk show. Hugh Hewitt's new book is The War On The West.

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Historical Trajectory
There is a historical trajectory that gives us some hope. Islam is some 600 years younger than Christianity. 600 years ago, in 1407, Christianity was just beginning to move beyond literalism. If we make it possible, the Islamic community will come to the same conclusions regarding the value of a secular nation. It does us no good, in teh mean time, to create situaitons which foster literalism and undermine secularism.

Energy dependence colors everythign we do in teh middle east. We would be able to act much more productively if we did not have to worry about oil.

Jack
Not bad for starters, if it will defuse the hatred between Muslims and Jews.

I've alway felt that depending on foreign oil was a killer for America.

Israel
I have a lot of thought on teh Israeli Palestinian conflict. The first one, of course, is that the Iraqi invasion made a resolution even more difficult to obtain. Aside from that, here's the deal



Develop a Manhattan Project level program to achieve energy independence: part conservation, part alternative fuels, part public transport, part nuclear, part new fossil sources, with a long term push toward fusion

Israel has the right to exist. Logically, therefore, Israel has a right to defend itself from attack. If we accept that, the question is how do we manage the situation so that teh conflict is defused and will conceivably fade over time.

First, America needs to be regular and effective in explaining its nature as a secular state. We can't give the impression we are supportin Judaism as opposed to Israel.

Second, re-evaluate the proposed CAmp David solution with an eye to determining the disposition of water resources.

Propose jerusalem as an international city, a model for managing disputed territory.

Declare the West Bank as Palestine. Create the state and then deal with it. Gaza is a lost cause. If they want to join teh Palestinian state, there are rules. In this way, if attacks come from Palestine, the reaction is to declare war.

Its very important to have a logn term plan to illuminate teh concept of a secular nation, even if it is populated by very religious folks.

How's that for a start.

Jack
Jack,

You are right about Powell not wanting to engage the Iraqis, but he’s always held that position during and since Gulf War 1.

It’s really been interesting and even fun at times taking some harmless jabs at you.
I do respect the fact that you take an educated approach to issues.


I’m curious about one more thing and we can probably bring this duel to an end. What’s your position on Israel in this whole debate on the Middle East?

It appears that the Middle East problem is more a religious problem than a political problem.

Our real difficulties with making any headway in Iraq seems to be Sunnis hate Shiites, Shiites hate Sunnis, Wahhabis hate Shiites and disapprove of Sunni doctrine, and they all would like to see Israel disappear.

If there is one thing that an extremist Muslim will do is kill someone over a disagreement over religious doctrine.

Muslims have hated Jews for centuries. Since Israel became a nation Muslims for been vowing to drive them into the sea.

Hatred has been expressed against the Jews for centuries for various reasons, which none of them from a secular view point warrant exterminating them. They have done nothing but defend there right to exist. The land issue is secondary.

Israel has nuclear weapons which they will, or can uses as a last resort. They do not have the ability to fight off the entire Islamic nation, especially in a ground war. The UN is as worthless as teats on a boar if Israel is attacked. By the time they finish with solutions it will be all over.

Your non intervention policy would indicate that Israel is on its own.

Many people believe that the Jew is our main problem with the Arab nations anyway.
If the USA was not standing by Israel’s side, this problem with the Arab’s would have been over in the 6 day war.

I just thought I’d ask. My whole position from the start has been that I believe that Israel has a right to exist. The whole mess in the Middle East boils down to Muslims not wanting that to happen.

To abandon Israel would solve our problems wouldn’t it?

Also my whole argument about WMD’s was not that I disagreed with the inspector’s findings, I disagreed that you said that there was no evidence to a threat, that Iraq didn’t move them, that they could not be weapons still buried.

No inspector, no report can say that with certainty.
I can’t say that they were moved, you can’t say that they were not.
I can not say that they are still there; you can not say that they are not.

The report reveals what the situation was as they saw it, which I am willing to accept with reservations.
I personally believe that it is possible that the weapons were moved to Syria. I can’t prove it, you can’t disprove it.
The Israelis have what they believe is evidence of some activity, but they can’t prove what it is. So, that’s why I oppose dogma.

So, it’s not ignorance on my part, it’s refusal to let anyone bulldoze me into accepting one side of the story. It doesn’t make me ignorant, it makes me skeptical.

Did Bush have grounds to go into Iraq; apparently he thought that he did.

Did he have an agenda? I guess that’s a question left to him and his God.
He may have, but I’m not physic.

No president has ever made a decision that near half of the nation didn’t disapprove of.

But, I really am interested in your view of abandoning Israel.

This will probably be my last post here.

Thanks for an interesting dialog.



Foxy
Not too bad of an idea. But, then again, maybe not. In one way, there are some simple thing to attend to. The issues are complex, but the approach is not that hard. In a nutshell, we need pragmatic leaders pursuing realistic goals. Unless the case is extreme, ideological consideratiosn take a back seat to pragmatism: let the Constitution influence philosophical ideological concerns. When a topic is subject to actual study...do the work and then make a decision.

Just for you, let's consider 2cd amendment issues. The reality is that the 2cd and be construed in several different ways. A full scale, neutral research project on private ownership would be instructicve. If high gun ownership rates actually deter problems, then pay no attention to those who claim gun control will save people.

The process of how we address issues is a lot simpler than the issues themselves. Wehn we get folks like dwight talking about "doing the right thing" we shoudl all be skeptical. We should be doing, in most cases, that which works.

I have been involved in political discourse for decades. I do not generally get into calling folks ignorant until they show themselves have no intention of adhering to established principles. For example, in a legal discussion it took many many oposts and weeks adn week sof discussion to get a conservative to admit that "innocent until proven guilty" was a principle of American justice. How can you do anything but call somebody ignorant if they won't accept that?

Defeatest Republicans
Well written! I agree 100% about this.

We need people whose overriding objective is to do the right thing, and not pander for votes.

We need the 'Goldwater Reagan' approach to leadership.
These are the facts
This is what I think and why
If anyone has a good arguement; Let's here it
Follow me I know what I'm doing.

I think this would be successful in the comming election.

If it isn't, it's still the right thing to do.

Jack

Jack: writes
Bush et al thought the war would be easy and cheap, that we'd be greeted as liberators adn that Iraqi factions would be so delighted to be rid of Saddam that they would embrace real Democracy overnight. Their plans were a fantasy. They had no awareness ofthe internal nature of Iraq, no real awareness of the theological and cultual issues and no idea how Iran would be a factor.


RESPONSE:

OK, I'll give you that one.
I don't understand why he didn't see that coming either.

Islamic religion runs much deeper than most people think.
I know more about it than you may think.

Jack
Why don't you run for office?
I'm sure with the insight that you have, you could offer more than the Democratic, or independent candidates, maybe even more than most of the Republicans.

But, then again, it's the UN that's going to be running things soon. Maybe you should consentrate on a position wiyh them.

I'm serious, we need someone to straighten out the worlds problems, and apparently it's simple from your point of view. We just need to quit interfering.

Sounds like a plan.

But, a small word of advice, you're going to have to find another word for ignorant.
People aren't likely to accept your point of view if you keep calling them ignorant.

The thing is, they like to think that they're not destitute of education or knowledge evn if they are.

Funny thing is, there vote counts too, isn't it a pity.


Iran in Iraq
As I have written elsewhere, there are three wars happenign in Iraq. One of them is the proxy war between the US and Iran. Of course Iran is interfering in Iraq. WHy wouldn't they? They remember all too well the support the US gave to Saddam Hussein in his war agaisnt Iran, which killed a hell of a lot of Iranians, perhaps as many as half a million. WE provided training, logistic, munitions and yes, WMD support to Iraq. Some of those horrific cases of WMD use by Saddam happened while he was OUR guy. WHy would they not take the opportunity to tweak America's nose?

It is ignorance born of a self centered world view to complain about this. We were complicit in the Iraqi attack on Iran. Yet we feel outraged that Iran is supporting a few militants in Iraq. Most Americans know nothing of this dynamic.

I will say it again. Ignorance is our biggest threat, yet there are people, like many on town hall, who prefer ignorance because it supports your political and emotional commitments.

Foxy's Why
WHy would Bush concot a plan so dismal? The answer is clear and it is supported by the evidence. Bush and his administration had no idea what they were getting into.

For example, Colin Powell recently stated that he had spent anumber of hours trying to convince the President not to invade Iraq. He tried to explain the ramifications of invading an Arab nation. The President ignored him: he clearly did not understand the validity of Powelll's position.

In an interview with Pat Robertson, Bush was asked if he was worried about casualties. Bush replied that there wouldn't be any casualties.

Dick Cheney stated that we would be greeted as liberators.

Others reported teh war would be over in weeks, not months. Others reported that the Iraqi oil revenue would cover the cost of approximately 20 billion needed to rebuild Iraq.

Thomas Rciks reported convincingly that administration offices specifically told military planners NOT to plan for an insurgency or a long occupation. They did not think a plan for dealign with the country after the initial invasion was necessary.

Bush et al thought the war would be easy and cheap, that we'd be greeted as liberators adn that Iraqi factions would be so delighted to be rid of Saddam that they would embrace real Democracy overnight. Their plans were a fantasy. They had no awareness ofthe internal nature of Iraq, no real awareness of the theological and cultual issues and no idea how Iran would be a factor.

In short, they did this whole thing in a fog of both ignorance and arrogance.




Jack

Tonkin Gulf II and the Guns of August?
By Patrick J. Buchanan


The Quds Force of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards is using Hezbollah to train Shiites to attack our soldiers and providing them with enhanced IEDs that have killed scores of U.S. troops, Bergner charged. He says we have captured a veteran Hezbollah agent and documents pointing to direct Iranian complicity in the Karbala raid.

Iran has denounced the charge as "ridiculous." But the Senate has voted 97 to zero to censure Iran for complicity in killing the Americans.

If what Bergner alleges is true, President Bush has not only the right but appears to have the blessing of Congress to attack Iran. And he now has the naval and air forces at hand. What is stopping him?

Is it true or false?

Can this general be trusted are is he merely a pawn in the hands of the Bush adminisration to justify another war.

Is Iran interfering in Iraq?

What do your source say?



Jack
Jack writes:

If i wwere on trial for something and I were innocent, would want people who were good at handling evidence.

FOXY RESPONSE:

Good point assuming that the prosecutor has presented all the evidence and is not full of deception. But prosecutor are honorable people and never have no personal interests that get in the way.

If you were guilty you would want a lawyer that could twist the evidence in your favor.

Oosp! Did I say that? Maybe Bush twisted the facts to suit himself. He does that you know.

I can’t help but think of my previous comment.

Bush concocted this plan, to spend 600 hundred billion dollars, kill 4,000 American shoulders, destroy the respect of this nation, and bring the wrath of the Islamic nation down on us. He has been planning for decades how he would install democracy in the Middle East, because of what again?

A conspiracy with some international group, of world controlling powers.

Foxy
Evidence is NOT as tricky as you make it out to be. Part of being a good citizen, being a good person, is to develop a capacity for making judgements as to what constitutes good evidence and what does not. If i wwere on trial for something and I were innocent, would want people who were good at handling evidence. If I were guilty, I would want people who were not good at it.

I am saying, pointedly, that you believe people who tell you what you want to hear. And you question people who tell you waht you do not want to hear. You do not evaluate what people say based on concrete evidence, such as written or physical evidence, or on the reasonableness of what they say.

For example, Wiseone claimed that Iraq had missiles that could strike LOndon or Paris. He blatantly wrong on the facts. His credibility should be absolutely zero. When someone is factually wrong over and over again, then you should not trust them. The Bush administration has been wrong about virtually everything they predicted in Iraq, but you still give them credibility. Opponents have been right over and over again. But you still mistrust them.


A study by an expansive tam of experts that wen ton for several years produces a conclusion based on interviews, documents, adn phsyical evidence. You don't accept it. A single man about whom you know nothing makes a claim unsupported by any documents or physical evidence, but you trust him.

That is the kind of mental process that will destroy us.


Jack
Its ignorance to ignore the vast pile of evidence that tells us there were no WMD's in Iraq. Grasping on to some flimsy claim or outside possibility just hold on the the point is ignorance. But it is also ignorant for others to think that leaving Iraq carries no risk and will end that conflict.

RESPONSE:

What is evidence?
Deffinition: 1 a : an outward sign : INDICATION b : something that furnishes proof

By deffinition evidence depends upon your perception of its trust worthyness.

If I am perceiveed as an honest man, you assume that everything that I say can be trusted.

But, if a man perceived to be honest lies, can what he says be used as evidence.

Now, before you jump to conclusions and think I'm referring to your sources, I'm not.

I'm simply stating a supposition.

Evidence is a tricky subject.

You are assuming that those presenting evidence have a pure motive.

If I believe a lie, am I ignorant or deceived.

Am I deceived or ignorant if I see a light and assume it to be the sun shining when it is really an electric light.

Appearances can be deceiving. Washington can produce illustions, so can the enemy. Am I ignorant or deceived if I believe what the enemy wants me to believe.

The books that you read for sources, Do you believe them because they are right or because you perceive them to be right.

What if the imformation they pass on to you is a lie that has been well concealed.

You see, it is easy to throw that word evidence around by both of us.

I am not ignorant, I am be deceived.
You may be as well.

That's why it really boils do to how you approach the subject.

Do you know why people perfer one church denomination over another, mainly because they were exposed to it from the start.

If your ideology opposes entitlements, you will tend to believe everyone that produces so called evidence to back up your feeling about entitlements.

Even if you are open minded and read different sources, you will come down on the side that is most reasonable to your way of thinking.

There are men in prison today who 12 people have viewed the evidence and found guilty that were innocent because the evidence appeared to support guilt.

You see, It depends upon how the evidence has been made to appear to you. You may have been deceived in what you have observed.


Foxy
You said something interesting.

"You tend to believe who supports your ideology. That does mean that it’s the gospel truth no matter whether you’re conservative or liberal."

You are saying this, probably, because that is the way the world works for you. You have a hard time seeign that there is another way to function. For example, I look at the facts, as best I can, and then develop my positions from that.

You picture me as someone with an opposing ideology. You have repeatedly attributed positions to me that I do not hold, because you see the world as nothing but opposing ideologies. I see the world as a battle between ignorance and smarts.

Its ignorance to ignore the vast pile of evidence that tells us there were no WMD's in Iraq. Grasping on to some flimsy claim or outside possibility just hold on the the point is ignorance. But it is also ignorant for others to think that leaving Iraq carries no risk and will end that conflict.

Claism liek this one are also problematic:

"There’s only one way to survive as a nation, whether ours or any other, you must be stronger than any other nation militarily."

This is absurd when you actually look at the evidence. It means only one nation can survive. I hat to break it to you, but Egypt, Iran, Switzerland, Burma, India, Greece Italy, all the Scandinavian countries, Korea, Japan and a host of other nations have survived just fine without being the strongest nation militarily.

But, it sounds liek a good conservative idea, so you buy it.


Jack
I’m beginning to think like those in Missouri.

I believe nothing of what I hear and half of what I see.

Words are powerful, to the subverting of the hearer.

I don’t believe half of what I hear from any of them in Washington.

The state department has both conservatives and liberals. The congress has both conservatives and liberals. The pentagon has both conservatives and liberals.

You tend to believe who supports your ideology. That does mean that it’s the gospel truth no matter whether you’re conservative or liberal.

World history confirms that man has had his differences from the beginning of time.

You can forget it if you think that we are going to have world peace.

There’s only one way to survive as a nation, whether ours or any other, you must be stronger than any other nation militarily.

If you show weakness, you’re asking to be overthrown.

Everybody, liberals and conservatives have there conspiracy theories.

It’s globalism, one world government, isolationism, you name it.

Clinton was no better, he sold us out .

There’s no way that you can see the impact of a countries decisions until years later.

We are reaping the consequences of bad decisions of the Clinton presidency today

Bush Sr. should have finish the first time and we would not be there now.

Fox One
AT some point it appears you have felt the impact of the official word on WMD's in Iraq. You note, quite accurately, that people with an Agenda can spin intelligence to support their particular position. That is why the report of the ISG, structured and staffed by the Bush administration, carries so much weight. Bush has admitted openly that there were no WMD's in Iraq. I simply cannot imagine why an administration with so much to lose would say there were no WMD's if they had any evidence that the WMD's had been there.

It will help you to reconcile this, and gain some intellectual credibility, if you understand why Iraq was invaded. Dick Cheney and a number of others in the administration had already signed on to the Project for the New American Century (PNAC). Its avowed goal was to use military power to extend the reach of democracy in the Middle East. They had urged Clinton to invade Iraq. When they came to power, it was on the top of their list of things to do.

This is why Cheney’s first request after 9-11 was for someone to find a tie between 9-11 and Iraq. Paul O’Neill, treasury secretary FOR BUSH, wrote that invading Iraq was the main topic of discussion in cabinet meetings from the very start.

In short, these guys wanted to remake the middle East though military power and by releasing what they perceive as the positive forces of democracy and freedom. It was a delusion. It was a case of absolute power corrupting absolutely. And to make it happen, all they had to do was cherry pick data. Ignore anything that indicated there was no reason to invade and hype anything that indicated there was a reason to invade.

Get out of your pro war bubble. Read Frank Rich's book "the Greatest Story Ever Sold". read "the One Percent Solution." Read "Fiasco" by Thomas Ricks. You will see how pathetically incapable this administration was at understanding what they were getting into and what it would take to pull it off.

Now, I do not buy any of the conspiracy theory about 9-11, and I do not think, yet, that we should withdraw as soon as possible. But we should be realistic rather than dreamy eyed about how we got here and where we need to go. Anytime you find yourself using a slogan or talking point you have heard, pinch yourself because it is undoubtedly a bunch of crap.

There is some truth to the idea that Saddam was pretending to have WMD's and we were duty bound to take that seriously. But that doesn't explain why Blix's data and protestations were ignored. Nor does it explain why Scott Ritter's information was ignored. Both the men who had the most information indicated the WMD issue was either non-existent or could be resolved. Both were ignored.

The best most comprehensive report indicates WMD's were destroyed right after GW I and that the Clinton air strikes eliminated everything left over. But believers like you will grasp at any straw to maintain the illusion that this invasion was necessary, or even a vaguely good idea. Once again I ask you to compare strategies.

Clinton destroyed Iraqi WMD capacity with no American lives lost, one day spent in process, and a cost of 500 million. Bush spent 600 billion: that’s 1200 times as much money. Clinton lost no lives: Bush has lost close to 4000. Clinton spent a day. Bush has spent 4+ years. Clinton left a stable, disarmed situation with Iraq in place as a counterweight to Iran. Bush has created an unstable middle east, a terrorist recruiting and training bonanza, and a hyper nuclearized Iran with imminent access to huge amounts of cash.

Weigh the actual evidence against the untrustworthy or self serving protestations of those who agree with you. NO rational person could reach the conclusion you have after viewing the evidence. You could only reach your conclusion if you had decided at the start what the outcome was to be.

All this doesn't even begin to touch on the topic the even if Hussein did have WMD's, the invasion was still a mistake.

True Patriot
I'm not sure that I'm clear on what you are implying.

Are you saying that Bush and company destroyed two towers, killed over 4000 people to start a war in Iraq.

If you are saying that, I'm speechless!

This is not a closed society. Even the MSM doesn't buy that.

If bush and company wheeled that much power, they could have done a better job of running this war. If the CIA were that good, Osama bin Laden's head would be on display in the capital.

Could it be that you also have an agenda like the rest of us.

The Root of the Whole Problem
I'm going to tell you pseudo-patriots what is real and what isn't.

As we all know, we would not have gone into Iraq without the events of September 11, 2001. The Project for a New American Century once purported that it would take a "Pearl Harbor-like event" to create the political atmosphere to accomplish their goals. 9/11 gave them their Pearl Harbor.

Bush the father and Jim Baker were meeting with the Carlyle Group on September 11, 2001. Two of Osama Bin Laden's brothers were also at this meeting.

Bush's brother Marvin's company ran security for the WTC complex (whose contract expired on September 11, 2001).

Months earlier, Bush put Cheney in charge of NORAD operations, taking this power away from the generals who had always had the authority.

Media reports from September 11, 2001 document reports of "secondary explosions" eminating from Towers 1 and 2. Firefighters at the site reported the same thing.

No continuous video footage of the alleged plane that hit the mostly vacant, reinforced wing of the Pentagon has been released.

As far as the plane that went down in Pennsylvania, there is a 3 minute time difference as to when the plane went down if you look at the TSA report and the 9/11 commission report.

Some of the alleged 9/11 hijackers were later found to be alive, and some were being paid by the CIA.

There is a lot more evidence I can put forth, but this is not the forum for that.

As Republicans, aren't we supposed to be the party of freedom, the party of truth? Until a maverick in the party calls the neocons out, we should never win another election. Yes, some of the Dems like Bob Graham are guilty too, but most of the blame can and should be put on the Bush Administration.

If you believe the 9/11 Commission Report, then Oswald killed Kennedy and the Germans sunk the Lusitania.

I am a real Republican freedom fighter. I will fight for our party until the end. Do not let Bush take your rights away just because he believes in God and says he's a Republican.

This War on Terror is a farce, and Iraq being a byproduct of this War on Terror is equally a farce.

The whole WMD - UN Resolution thing is irrelevant.

Jack
Personally, I believe Bush attacked at that point because he knew a negative WMD reprot from Blix would have eliminated any reason to attack.

FOXFIRE22 RESPONSE:

Jack, I really am not trying to be a hard nose on this.

Also I am not stupid, nor would I intentionally lie.

But, please listen to what you are saying.

I didn’t like Bill Clinton as a president, I felt that he was a sleazy human being, but even I would never have suggested that he would deliberately send thousands of Americans to there deaths, maim countless others, spend hundreds of billions of dollars, and do it all based on a lie he knew that he couldn’t cover up. He knew that he had to find those weapons to justify this war.

Why would he do this, because Saddam tried to kill his father, for oil?
You may not like him, but what did he have to gain by this.

You’re expecting me to believe that all of those people under Bush were in on some sort of conspiracy with him or that he ordered this war like some mad dictator.

Please don’t insult my intelligence.

This doesn’t happen in America. Not even Bill Clinton could have gotten away with that. Collin Powell would not have signed off on that, other close advisers would not have sighed off on that.


Bush could not conceal the reports that you are now quoting.

Intelligence based on Saddam’s actions, threats, people in the country, past denial to allow inspections brought this action down on Saddam.

The reason for going to Vietnam was a noble cause. The way we fought that war was a disaster. The way we ended that war was a disgrace.

Now, I can give you sources to back up the comments that I made, but you are not going to accept them because they are not pentagon reports, Hans Blix’s report, or Duelfer report.

You won’t give what I have to say the time of day because they don’t fit your agenda.

Israeli officer, Lieutenant General Moshe Yaalon gave Washington satellite photos and intelligence that Saddam moved truck loads of something under heavy guard to Syria days before the attack. Source: The New York Sun.

Translated documents of Iraqi dissident Abu Abdallah states that Saddam moved weapons to Syria. Document was turned over to pentagon sources. Whether they viewed it credible or not, I can’t say. The Bush administration has chosen for some reason not to get involved with Syria at this time.

There’s a U.S. Federal Agent Paul D Gaubatz , who was sent to search for WMD’s before the war started. He was in southern Iraq. He found several sites that local people told him were used for storing WMD’s. He is still trying to get the pentagon to look into them. His last interview was April 6, 2006, where he stated that the Iraq Survey Group still hasn’t searched these areas. Source: Front page Magazine.

Now, I don’t expect you to give any credibility to these sources because as you said they are all from extreme conservatives that are trying to justify the war. So, no need wearing your fingers out rebutting my sources, I will concede that they are lies to you.

My last source is one that you will have to give some credibility to because it does say that there were no WMD’s in Iraq.

The source is OUTSIDE THE BULTWAY
Title: Saddam Hussein Maintained WMD Illusion To Deter Israel.

To make a long story short, Saddam wanted to make everyone believe that he had them. Chemical Ali said that they didn’t have them but wanted to make Israel believe that they were capable of using them on Israel if attacked.
Saddams inter circle of officers believed that they had WMD’s.

Now, let me ask you, do you think that Bush or the intelligence community is physic.

The Bush administration believed that Saddam was working on getting nuclear weapons. They believed that he had chemical and bio.

Despite what you said about the inspectors, they had been told many times that they could see everything and were refused access. Saddam was still playing cat and mouse with them.

The facts are that it does not matter whether we prove that he had them or not, he was a threat by illusion.

In my opinion Iran is a worse threat than Iraq was.

Please don’t ask me again what threat. If you can’t see it, nothing I can say will change it.

So, I guess that it boils down to a difference of opinions. That doesn’t make me a liar.

What I’ve said is not something that I fabricated out of the blue. You may not accept it , but if fits my agenda, which is that Bush may not have handled the reconstruction of Iraq well, but the cause was worthy.

Fox Boy One
Actually, you are still wrong about virtually everything. Right before the attack, Hans Blix stated specifically that he was getting the cooperation he needed and that he could resolve the WMD issue if give several weeks. At that point, the inpsectors were NOT hindered.

Personally, I believe Bush attacked at that point because he knew a negative WMD reprot from Blix would have eliminated any reason to attack.
\
To suggest that one cannot prove they were not moved is at best partly true, but is completely irrelevant. As teh ISG report stated, there is no reliable evidence they were moved, but there is evidence they were destroyed. The ISG people were Bush's hand picked team: they were supposed to find WMD's, and would have if they were there. These are YOUR guys.

You are deluded if you think that your handful of fantasies and suppositions is an argument at all. I, at least, can point to a study by the Bush administration that was conducted with as much rigor as they could manage over a period of years. That is ewidence. You can provide NOTHING CONCRETE to suggest that what you say is true.

You are correct that you did not mention the missiles. I was responding to Wiseone, who simply made a bunch of stuff up. He does that on a regular basis. However, the grotesquely innacurate claimk he made,wrong by a factor of 20, is just an example of how you guys think and work, with total disregard for accuracy and disdain for normal rules of evidence.

AS for your meaingless litany of the military "threats" we face, bunk. Iran has no missiles nearly capable fo reaching western Europe, let alone the US. They are lucky to be able to reach Israel. To suggest that Hussein could have bought some is also ludicrous. Ballistic missiles are traceable to their origin almosy immeduately.

Better put it this way. The us has a military budget greater than all the rest of the nations in teh world.....combined. If we aren't militarily safe in that environment, then no amount of military power can make us safe.

Tunneler
WHat, is the air thin down there in the tunnel.

You tell me the place in the Duelfer reprot where he says there were scattered facilities producingt WMD's in the Western portion of the country. Cause frankly, I can't find it. If you have it, you should be able to point to the section and page.

You also claim the Duelfer report wrote "in depth about Saddam moving his remaining stockpiles out of the country in that time period that was the run up to the war." Actually, you are full of ****. Her eis what ISG said about the issue in its 2005 addendum. "ISG judged that it was unlikely that an official transfer of WMD material from Iraq to Syria took place..." Furthermore, they went on to point out that, "it was unlikely that scientists were capable of re-creating the destroyed weapons programs," meaning Iraq would have possessed little if anything to transfer.

Its pathetically amusing that you suggest people actually read teh ISG report, when you conveniently neglect to provide any direct information from the report itself.



Steve L....
"And even if you still thought it was necessary, then once David Kay announced to Congress in December 2003 that there was no WMD in Iraq, that should have been our cue to leave. Instead Bush tried to build a democracy there as a kind of consolation prize for failing to find WMD there. There was NEVER any authorization by Congress for the counterinsurgency war we're fighting now."

And what you've neglected to mention, which is so typical of Democraps, is that both David Kay, and Charles Dulfur (who wrote an even more indepth commentary on the situation in Iraq just prior to our invasion) wrote extensively about the lack of large scale WMD stockpiles or production facilities. Dulfur wrote in depth about the scatter of small scale "clandestine" facilities, that produced amounts of WMDs in the western portion of the country. Kay and Dulfur also wrote in depth about Saddam moving his remaining stockpiles out of the country in that time period that was the run up to the war.

Try doing something extremely novel for a Democrap; READ THE ENTIRE REPORT INSTEAD OF WHAT THE NY TIMES DECIDES IS IMPORTANT. You might actually find out some useful information rather than being a talking point useful idiot for the MoveOn.Org's of the world.

Jack
I never said they were hinder after he fell.

They were hindered before we went to war, matter of fact rught up to weeks before the attack.

Don't you remember Saddam denying access to the palace and other sites. The report is accurant to the extent that the inspecters reported what they had access to.

As to the report after Saddams regine feel, you can't prove that they weren't moved. There is no conclusive evidence, but more exists for them being moved than not.

So, we are at a stand off.

What evidence do we have that the weapons were totally destoryed? Just because inspecters saw some busted up weapons, you're possitive they found them all.

Maybe you need to do some research on how quickly you can remanufacture chemical and bio weapons.

Your argument wholes as little water as you think mine does.

As for the missles, I never said that, but you seem to think that with his money he couldn't get them.

I suppose you think Iran doesn't have them, or close to getting them.

I suppose you think N. Korea doesn't have long range missles that they would have gladly sold to Saddam.

I guess China is no one to be concerned about, since they have the capibility to knock out our GPS, which would make us totally defenseless.

Well, as for my source on the satelite pictures, I read it, I don't feel the necessity to rease it further because you wouldn't accept it if I showed to you. You would come up with the old doctored photo ploy.
So, what is the use of trying with anti war propagandests.

Two Lies=One Truth

Foxfire, yes, the report I quote is accurate. It is the official government response to the situation and is supported by several years of unhindered investigation, a significant review of piles of evidence conductedby a team who had everythign to gain by finding WMD's. If they could have declared WMD's, they would have.

You are lying when you say that ISG inspectors were hindered. They were in place for several years AFTER Saddam fell. How could they be hindered? Even if you refer to the UN inspectors pre-invasion, the chief inspectors stated specifically that he was able to go everywhere he needed to go and see what he needed to see.

Here's another piece of hogwash. "I can’t remember the source, but I read an article that said that Russia had an agreement with Saddam that if he were to be attacked that Russia would get the weapons out there." No evidence of this agreement exists and you rely on a source you can't remember. That's an intellectual joke. The official government report says clearly that there is no evidence any weapons were moved. This is clear, because it also reports that the weapons were almost entirely destroyed after Gulf War I, with the CLinton air strikes eliminating any remaining capacity.

Just like elliaea babbling about seeing TV satellite imagery of trucks. Really? I searched and couldn't find a single image. If anybody has a satellite photo of this event, please let me know.

All in all, what happens here is that peole make inflammatroy but completely spurious claims, like Iraq having missiles that could hit London, and you right wingers suck it up like the last drop of liquid in a bull**** shake.


jevica
Do you have a like that I could read up on.

I don't know for certain what's going on with the fund now.

When Social Security first started, it was represented as a retirement account. Congress has used Social Security funds for years to pay for programs other than retirement.

The money rapidly started disappearing. Now Social paysments are views as a welfare check to retirees. My Social Security withholdings are viewed as an insurance premium.

Social Security is running out because it is being used for to many things other than what it was designed for.

Social Security needs to be privatized.

Ron Paul Statement on Iraq War
Ron Paul Statement on the Iraq War Resolution

Do you agree with Ron Paul the biggest red herring in this debate is the constant innuendo that those who don’t support expanding the war are somehow opposing the troops?

Statement by Ron Paul

This grand debate is welcomed but it could be that this is nothing more than a distraction from the dangerous military confrontation approaching with Iran and supported by many in leadership on both sides of the aisle.

This resolution, unfortunately, does not address the disaster in Iraq. Instead, it seeks to appear opposed to the war while at the same time offering no change of the status quo in Iraq. As such, it is not actually a vote against a troop surge. A real vote against a troop surge is a vote against the coming supplemental appropriation that finances it. I hope all of my colleagues who vote against the surge today will vote against the budgetary surge when it really counts: when we vote on the supplemental.

The biggest red herring in this debate is the constant innuendo that those who don’t support expanding the war are somehow opposing the troops. It’s nothing more than a canard to claim that those of us who struggled to prevent the bloodshed and now want it stopped are somehow less patriotic and less concerned about the welfare of our military personnel.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/ron-paul-statement-on-the-iraq-war-resolution

Liberty
On your comment about Social Security, I can see that you have no concept of how it is funded and the so-called Trust Fund, which is nothing of the kind.

There is no "stealing" of money no "raiding" of the fund. Read up on the subject before you make such a comment.

elliea
These people amaze me.

Halo, SteveL, and others.

I’ve read the reports they quote. The weapons inspectors were hindered every time that tried to inspect. Saddam let them go where he wanted them to go, and stop them from accessing areas that they wanted to see. When they left they clearly stated that they didn’t see everything they wanted to see, but to the best of there knowledge he didn’t have anything in violation.

The report covers what they saw, not what they wanted to see.

The report states that Saddam had the capabilities to continue WMD development in the future. He had plans for a nuclear device, Chemical, and biological weapons could be developed in a very short time. Empty shells were found by our military forces that could have been used to put chemical and bio material in.

Israel has photos of Syria burying something hauled in at night on trucks and was well guarded.

I can’t remember the source, but I read an article that said that Russia had an agreement with Saddam that if he were to be attacked that Russia would get the weapons out there.

Please look up the word threat in the dictionary.

1 : an expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage
2 : one that threatens
3 : an indication of something impending the sky held a threat of rain

Would you say that Saddam was a threat to the security of the USA, or one of our allies?

To Wiseone, Dale & Level Head, and all
I am so pleased to read all this stuff which I have been convinced of--WMDs in Iraq--- I wonder sometimes if my Husband and I were the ONLY ones watching TV when the satellites were showing truck, after truck, after truck, after truck...
leaving Iraq. Surely anyone would realize that they were carrying the WMDs out of Iraq. Just before the Invasion-- I am still convinced that we waited FAR FAR TOO long to get our act in gear, and they had time to hide a lot of stuff.
I have seen pics of recent airplanes found buried in sand to hide them from us.
The weak-brains who assert that "Saddam had not, nor would not, attack us"-- well they need a keeper cause they do not live in reality.
Oh yeah-- much like the left-looney-liberals--
they DEFINITELY live on a woozy plane of existence far far from any sense of Common Sense, or Level-Headedness.
Sad-- all that brain stuff as mush--and they do not realize it!!!

Jack
And certainly your report is accurate.

Wiseone Is Delusional


Wise guy, almost none of what you say is accurate. In fact, somne of what you say is so wrong that a 6th grader with a globe could make you look like a fool. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.

The most laughable claim you make is about AL Samoud missiles. "Proscribed al Samoud missiles with range that exceed the agreed treaty limit by more than 150 miles; far enough to reach both Paris and London."

Really? In fact, the total range of the Al SAmoud II missile is 180 kilometers, about 30 kilometers greater than allowed. Its total range is significantly less than what you claim is the extra range. Worse, Paris is just over 2400 miles from Baghdad. An Al Samoud II could go about 3% of the way.

Your other claims no more accurate. You claim, for example, that we found "500+ VIABLE CHEMICAL WARHEADS that were found shortly after the invasion began." is laughable. Here is what the Duelfer reprot says about them. "While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions were discovered, the ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991."

You also claim there were: "Mobile labs scrubbed clean of any evidence of what they were used for." Funny how you know they were mobile "labs". In fact, the only mobile "production facilities" were apparently used to generate hydrogen. Your claim is baseless, and I note that you do not cite a reference.

Your Cheney like conviction aside, when you claim that we found " Hundreds of tons on chemical-biological precursor (ingredients) for making WMD", you are factually incorrect. Again, the Duelfer report says specifically, "ISG found no evidence that (this system) was used to procure precursor chemicals in bulk."

You claim as true another series of events that you have manufactured out of whole cloth. You say, "Saddam, who was "no threat" to the US had attacked our patrolling fighter planes over 200 times with surface-to-air missiles" This is factually incorrect. If challenge you to verify even ONE missile attack on a US plane in teh time period we are discussing. If you can, I will be shocked. AFter that you can try to find evidence of 200 attacks.

I have to go have Sushi now, so I don't have time to debunk all your erroneous and dishonest claims. In fact, I think I could have a more honest, intellectually sound discussion with a piece of tuna than I could with you.












ReadyK
Every leftist knows we were after the oil in the areas controled by the Japs in Maylasia and by the Germans in North Africa and South Eastern Europe. I learned this in college because they did not yet teach the truth in High School. I caused a lot of problems because I learned to much that was wrong before college, thankfully todays kids don't have to put up with all that "truth crap" now.

Throw Bush uder the bus..
when the bus is heading for a cliff. Maybe his body will get stuck in the wheels and cause the bus to stop.

In any case, with over a year to the 08 elections and a political carree, to save what harm is there. If the war is not going to end in your lifetime, why lose power to someone who may have a moral foundation. They might also end or reduce largese to you district. That would cause more funds to pour into the coffers of your political opponents. People will forget any sacrafice that may be made for the greater good, just as they will forget treachery if the war takes a measurable turn for the better.

My advice is not to relie on the voters common sense to retain your office. Sense is not common enough.

Readyk
Thanks for the perspective! Well said. As for Bryce, you can easily look back and say all that, but troops on the ground didn't get information as quickly and thoroughly as they do now. I think his points are quite valid and relevant to the current war.

Not Worth Fighting For
Lordy, Lordy. What's more repugnant, the Copperheads or the Nebbish? Differences only of degrees.

readyk presents a nice fantasy
but by the time of Normandy Allied forces had decimated Rommel in North Africa, had taken over half of Italy, and the German Army on the Eastern front was in retreat from the Russians.

07/16/44 Normandy Surge Failed. Withdraw
July 16, 1944


Dear President Roosevelt:

As you know, I voted for War in December 1941, have always supported the troops, and have stood with you over 2 ½ years during which our treasury’s been drained, the environment savaged, about 1/3 million of our fine soldiers killed, and double that amount injured.

But now that the D-Day surge is more than a month old and the Army is still in Normandy due to long standing HEDGEROWS, while progress in the Pacific is at a snails pace and high cost, it is time to publicly admit the inability of our incompetenent military (itemized below) to win without further horrendous losses, and set timetables for withdraw.

Pearl Harbor and Hickam Field Attack:
- At Hickam airplanes were concentrated rather than dispersed.
- Washington’s warnings took hours and were too late.
- Word of sinking a nearby 1 man sub did not reach those in charge.
- Radar detected the attack, but word did not reach those in charge.
The Atlantic:
- Germans sank numerous ships within miles of our coast.
- We’ve lost over 3,000 ships and 25,000 merchant marines.
The Pacific:
- We’ve failed to sink numerous ships due to faulty torpedoes.
- It took 6 months just to take Guadalcanal.
- We lost thousands at Tarawa for virtually nothing.
- We’ve only just taken control of the Philippine Sea.
- The new B-29 is over budget, behind schedule, and a lemon’s lemon.
Africa:
- It started with the French firing on our troops.
- There were a plethora of disasters before we turned it around.
Europe:
- Our Navy shot down numerous paratrooper loaded C-47’s near Sicily.
- Churchill called Italy the “Soft Under Belly of Europe”, but we’ve suffered huge losses and slow progress.
- Air raids on the likes of Ploesti were unmitigated disasters.
- Germany has a new “jet” plane 100 mph faster than our planes.
- Intelligence claims a new “V-2” rocket will attack England soon.
The Normandy Surge:
- Our best general, Patton, was sidelined for SLAPPING A SOLDIER.
- Eisenhower made unauthorized promises to de Gaulle for his support.
- Our bombers and naval guns were of very little help at the beaches, but killed plenty of the French.
- Brave Rangers died taking out log “guns” at Pointe Du Hoc.
- Many troops were unloaded hundreds of yards from planned points.
- Many troops were unloaded too far out to sea and drowned.
- Most of our “floating” tanks sank.
- Many gliders and paratroopers came down far from planned locations.
- We lost over 6,000 dead on D-Day alone.
- It would have been far worse were it not for Rommel being away for his wife’s birthday, and Hitler being asleep.
- Our Sherman tank gets blown to bits by German Tiger I tanks, and an even better Tiger II tank is being introduced.
Boondoggles:
- Extreme money’s being wasted on a farfetched wonder bomb, even though the Germans are years behind us on their version.
- We’re still paying Howard Hughes millions to build an unneeded 300’ wide unflyable airplane to supply Europe.
Civil Rights:
- German infiltrators were tried by the Military and hung in 2 months.
- Tens of thousands of Japanese-Americans are interred in California.
- Press Reports and Letters from fronts are highly censored.

Since we were attacked by JAPAN, political support for this war has steadily declined. If we continue our arrogant, unrealistic course of “unconditional surrender” it is quite reasonable to expect 1 ½ to 2 million additional U. S. casualties. And given the long standing cultures of the Germans and Japanese, we would probably need to occupy both countries for 5 to 10 years afterwards, and they would likely revert to their former ways soon after our departure. The time to stop the carnage is now.


Most Humbly and Sincerely,


Sinator Benedict Judas Fonda Bombast

P. S. Campaign contributions are down. Any help would be appreciated.

For Wiseone
You are right on the money! You provided more data than I provided. The interesting thing is the yellow-cake uranium. This is the stuff that the Left's favorite icon Joe Wilson found to be a myth.

Yeah, right!

wiseone
Good rebuttal. Wise I'd had that last night when they start getting on my case.

I've read that many times, but they just keeping calling you a liar.

Those "ballots"
Level Head, Wiseone,

You are absolutely correct about those ballots. If the RNC were truly interested in our opinions they would not charge us $11 for them to read them. It seems to me too often the RNC cares more about what the NYT thinks than about what the people of the USA think. As I posted above I will not support the RNC with even the $.41 it takes to return their surveys until they show that they might be listening. Maybe Mr Smith (OR) will begin listening when he becomes unemployed in 2009.

Thanks Wiseone!
You are spot on! Of course I know that those "ballots" are not worth the paper they are written on, and that my response means nothing and will not in fact even get read. Like everyone else, I am frustrated that I have no representation in the senate. (Boxer, Feinstein.) Not all is lost though; my congressman in Dan Lungren--one of the best in the bunch. But my complaint is with the national party, and particularly the Senate. How is it possible that Richard Lugar can abandon the President on the most important issue of our time, and think that to do so will gain the confidence of other Republicans. I think he has got a rude awakening coming his way. At least I hope he does. Domenici and Voinovich too (the latest defectors.)

Anyway, your comments are greatly appreciated. It helps to know that there are others who are experiencing the same level of frustration as I am, and who also want the RINOs purged from the GOP.

to al
who states: "Americans are tired of war."

Tired of war is nothing compared to what we'd be if the views of Ron Paul become our foreign policy.

What about "We will kill you and usher in a world-wide caliphate" don't you understand????

It couldn't be any more clear.

Tired or not, it's time to gird up your loins, people; this is a fight for survival.

Do you understand??? Survival???

There's no surer recipe for suicide than to wimp out at this juncture.




Level Head
I get the same questionaires.

I have concluded they are just a scam to make us think the RNC really wants to know our opinions so we will send them more money.

I stopped sending them money after the Gang of 14. Instead of filling out the questionaires I send letters explaining why I'm not sending any more money.

It doesn't matter. They are deaf. After I sent a letter to Elizabeth Dole declining an offer to join the Senate Republican's Inner Circle because the keynote speaker at the (unofficial) lunch/initiation was going to be John Gang-of-14 McCain himself, I got a voice-mail from my (Republican) Rep in the House inviting me to a rally in my home town at which the guest speaker would be - John McCain.

Those "questionaires" you're getting are nothing more than a con job to get your money. In the end they couldn't care less what you think, as evidenced by the immigration bill. They really took input from us before drafting that, didn't they? Send them a penny and tell them that's all they're getting until they put up a slate of real conservatives.

For Jack
You are wrong and ex-infantry is right.

House Republican Pete Hoekstra had to twist Bush's arm to get him to release the declassified information on the 500+ VIABLE CHEMICAL WARHEADS that were found shortly after the invasion began.

How many other WMD were found that remain classified and can't be released?

In addition we have found the following:

Proscribed al Samoud missiles with range that exceed the agreed treaty limit by more than 150 miles; far enough to reach both Paris and London.

A centrifuge used to enrich uranium.

1.77 metric tons of yellow cake

Mobile labs scrubbed clean of any evidence of what they were used for.

Two Russian MIgs buried in the desert.

The fuselage of an American passenger jet that was used to train terrorists how to hijack a plane.

Hundreds of tons on chemical-biological precursor (ingredients) for making WMD.

Hundreds of empty (unarmed) warheads design to release chem/bio weapons on impact.

(Minor correction to ex-infantry) Lt. Col. Georges Sada, formerly second in command of the Iraqi Air Force, who says most of the latest high tech WMD were dismantled by Russian engineers and flown to Syria in gutted passenger jets just before the invasion.

If this war was being run by, say, Bill Clinton, the liberal media would be all over this as proof that Saddam had WMD.

We also know, from the same Deulfer Report that is the lib bible on "No WMD" that (1) Saddam was reconstituting all of his WMD research and development, using the subverted Oil-for-Food program to fund it and (2) the connections between Saddam and al Qaeda were far more extensive than we thought before the war.

Other liberal lies about Iraq that need to be corrected include:

3. Bush never said Saddam had any involvement in 9/11. This is pure, 100%, dyed-in-the-wool liberal straw-doggery.

4. Joe Wilson's "mission" to Niger actually supported the 16 words in Bush's SOTUS. This is the conclusion drawn by the Senate Intelligence Committee. Wilson's editorial in the NY Times was a LIE.

5. Neither Bush nor Rumsfeld ever said winning in Iraq would be easy or quick. The words they used for the WOT in general were "a long hard slog", almost as if they were trying to recreate Churchill's "blood, toil, tears and sweat" (Not a correct exact quote). As for Iraq, they said we would defeat Saddam without getting into a quagmire, which was correct as far as it went. They have had problems with the nation-building effort, but even this has been falsely presented by the left. It is not a "civil war". It is a resistance initiated and promoted by anti-US elements in al Qaeda and Iran, nearly all of them foreign nationals. The left is partially correct in calling this an "insurgency", but only because the left doesn't know what the word really means; a group of cambatants surging into a campaign, not a group of indigent civilians resisting a hostile occupaying force.

6. There were several reasons more than the two cited by other posters for going to Iraq. The most important of these was the belief that terrorists do not breed in free nations. If we abandon Iraq al Qaeda and/or the Taliban will turn it into the next Afghanistan.

7. Saddam was in fact an indirect threat to national security, as evidenced by 9/11 and its perpetrator bin Laden. Because of Saddam we had to maintain bases in Saudi Arabia to patrol the No-Fly zones. Bin Laden specifically cited the US presence on Saudi soil as one reason for his jihad. Our presence there also resulted in the bombing of the Khobar Towers and the marine barracks in Riyadh. Now that we have an air base in Baghdad and don't have to patrol No-Fly zones to protect the Kurds we have abandoned our Saudi bases. BTW - Saddam, who was "no threat" to the US had attacked our patrolling fighter planes over 200 times with surface-to-air missiles and had tried to assassinate one of our former Presidents. All AFTER he signed a peace treaty to save his butt after the Persian Gulf War.

Again, lib the media would be boasting these facts on a regular basis if a Democrat were fighting this war.

To Answer Akagi
Thanks to Firefox and Ex-Infantry for your service. With all of my heart I honor your service and sacrifice on behalf of us who walk free because you did.

A few quotes then Akagi's answer.

“Once we roared like lions for liberty, now we bleat like sheep for security.” (Norman Vincent Peale).

“If you go into every situation saying there's absolutely nothing worth fighting over, you will inevitably end up on a cot sleeping next to a guy named Tiny, bringing him breakfast in his cell every morning, and spending your afternoons ironing his boxers. Or, in the case of the French, you might spend your afternoon rounding up Jews to send to Germany, but you get the point." (Jonah Goldberg)

What's the purpose of the war? Isn't it to fight against the evil that wants us DEAD? A culture of evil that promises to eradicate the very way of life our forefathers fought and died to secure. To paraphrase a quote regarding the Holocaust, all that is necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing.

I don't understand those who don't believe this war is truly bigger than Iraq. It's a bloody battle of ideals. West vs. East. Freedom vs. Control. I don't want to end up ironing Tiny's shorts, or standing in line for bread with a food voucher (IF I pledge my allegience to Allah or the Party).

The war is on, so who's to fight it but us? I guess we could leave the battle to another country or the next generation, but how rusty will their weapons be and how downtrodden their attitudes if no one before them is willing to take up the fight. It must be done and here's why: if this generation doesn't succeed in destroying our way of life and subjecting us to theirs, do you think that will stop the attempt? Think again. Already, a new generation is being brainwashed into the war that THEY acknowledge is happening. They are joined together as one AGAINST our ideals, customs and freedoms. They're raising up militant progenies.

It’s a disheartening contrast to see how Muslim children are educated versus how Western Children are educated. In the Middle East, children are indoctrinated that to die for Allah is the highest ideal, and that it is heroic to achieve a martyr's death. Here, we teach our children not to hurt anyone’s feelings and to be “culturally aware” and sensitive to other people over self. Who do you think will last longer in battle?

Where is the RNC?
I get lots of stupid questionnaires from the RNC containing lots of questions that make it seem like they stand for the right things. But since I know that in practice the RINOs do everything they can to undermine it (Chuck Hagel, John McCain, Lindsay Graham, Arlen Specter, Voinovich, Domenici, Lugar, Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins), I send back the "ballot" with handwritten notations that the RNC will never see a dime for me so long as RINOs can defeat the conservative agenda of the Republican party. I disagree with Maximus that it's too late; we can't quit--that's what Democrats do. Still, we may indeed have to tolerate a couple of very bad election cycles to purge the RINOs and to get some conservatives with spines to reenergize the base and make the Republican a viable party again. For now, batten down the hatches. The Democrat storm will be ugly, violent, and extremely damaging.

Too late
Sorry Hugh,it's too late for a purge as many Republicans like myself have left this train wreck of a Party after 40 years of loyalty. Bush and the Republicans have given us such wonderful legislation: Hate Crimes, MCCain-Fenigold, Big Government Spending and Nation Building in the Middle East.
One can only wonder what they would do for an encore after the purge? Even freshman Democrats show more courage and conviction in their votes than the current crop of feckless Republicans. The only reason they did n't fold on Boarder security was that we,the people held their feet to the fire. Please!

Bzzzzt...Wrong

All this has been dealt with. It's all part of the process of finding some tiny bit of something and then trying to spin it into a WMD program.

"o 500 tons of natural uranium stockpiled at Iraq's main declared nuclear site south of Baghdad (OK, now for what peaceful program was this designed for, huh?)."

This was material reported to UN inspectors long before the invasion. It wasn't a WMD and could become a WMD.

"surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles"

WHy would you be daft enough to consider these WMD's?

"equipment for "uranium-enrichment centrifuges", part of a clandestine nuclear-weapons program"

No such "equipment" was found. There was no clandestine nuclear program. falls into the same category as aluminum tubes Condi Rice said could only be used for centrifuges, even after she'd been told they weren't suitable for it.

"unexploded IED found two years ago that contained sarin gas."

This was an abandoned munition scavenged from an abandoned ammo dump by Iraqi insurgents. It contained traces of Sarin which were not even enough to harm the men who did the test. Some WMD.

But your point is all part of the obfuscation still practiced by the right wing diehards. These so called WMD's were NOT the WMD's we were told about. Even teh President admitted there were no WMD's. Given the problems this has caused him, why would he do that? WHy wouldn't he make the same claims you are making? Because he would look like an even bigger moron for trying to scam people again.

No WMDs have been found? Give me a break
Only those who continue to act like ostriches (by keeping their heads in the sand) say that no WMDs have been found. Kenneth Timmerman, esteemed investigative reporter, reported the following in 2004

(http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/11/World/Investigative.Reportsaddams.Wmd.Have.Been.Found-670120.shtml>http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/11/World/Investigative.Reportsaddams.Wmd.Have.Been.Found-670120.shtmlan)


o 55-gallon drums containing cyclosarin - a nerve agent

o 500 tons of natural uranium stockpiled at Iraq's main declared nuclear site south of Baghdad (OK, now for what peaceful program was this designed for, huh?). This material was secreted out of Iraq by US forces to that Al Qaeda couldn't steel it to make dirty bombs with it.

o surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles

o equipment for "uranium-enrichment centrifuges", part of a clandestine nuclear-weapons program

o reference strains" of a variety of biological-weapons agents

and others. The Iraqis admitted they had made 3.9 tons of VX nerve gas and then there was the matter of the unexploded IED found two years ago that contained sarin gas. And most of these WMDs were reported in the Iraqi Study Group (ISG)Report.

So you ostriches may continue to refuse to believe, but the truth is you are deceiving yourselves and, therefore, lying to all whom you are continuing to espouse your false beliefs.


Lulu
Did you miss the point? Of course Clinton deemed Saddam was a threat. That is why Clinton destroyed Hussein's WMD capacity, cheaply, efficiently and without loss of American life. CLinton also signed the Iraq regime change "law" which specifically forbade the use of military force to achieve that change. In retrospect, who got it right? CLinton or Bush?

There is absolutely no question that his nation was a secular nation. Women driving. Women voting. No burkha or hijab. No Sharia law.

If you actually addressed the issues and facts involved instead of mouthing platitudes and campaign slogans, I'd be shocked.

I'm glad
these Senators are crawling off like the cockroaches that they are. Now we know who are the true comprehending Americans and who are more interested in getting re-elected to line their own pockets. Makes it much simpler to clean up the party. Maybe we should all show up to Congress with some buckets of yellow paint to 'highlight' their true character.

Jack
*sigh* Repeating that dribble does not make it any more true today than yesterday, nor will it be true tommorrow. Let me remind you that Bill Clinton deemed Saddam as threat and called for a regime change despite his so called secular stauts which is a myth.

PC and War
It's too bad we couldn't spend, instead, the billions fighting politcal correctness.
Perhaps unknown to many of you great Americans posting here that all an Iraqi has to do is complain and an US court martial has been slated.

GitMO when dissolved will completely allow the PC liberal lawyer hacks to jump up and defend terrorists, the terrorists will get off because the law designed for "regular bad guys" will be applied. Both dems and Rep will not notice the menace to Israel because both have bought into the lie that one can pacify a Moslem terrorist by giving them land.

Give a Palestinian land (as in Gaza) and civil war ensues. Bleeding hearts say that this poor group is simply misunderstood instead of pawns of Hamas and Hizbollah.

Both borders, south and North will not be protected because we could be perceived as "racist"

The gold old melting pot has become a mosaic which says because I am a minority my group must be recognized.
No more does the brown skin just want to be assimilated and treated as any white man (Ellison's Invisible Man)
Now they want to be identified with the group not as an individual, with the lament, not with the success that inevitabley follows hard work.

Schools fail because governments think money is the answer to education, not a cultural overhaul which will stop with the smiley faces and say the end result is more important than the process.

Sarah. Let's use the billions in a way that might make some sense!

Sarah: Well argued
To add to the arguments, we are so tapped out in Iraq that we cannot focus our military on other potential and very real threats: Iran, North Korea, Pakistan (should Mushariff be assinated or replaced) a very real threat with ready to go nuclear weapons.

To demonstrate how tapped out we are, one of my sons is a Lt. Commander in the Navy. He went into the navy directly from getting an MBA and went straight to his fist post as a hospital administrator. He never went to Basic, never has held a weapon, never has gone hunting and yet he is slated to go to Iraq to train Iraqi's.
Iraqi's who have no loyalty to anyone save their religious persuasion, who can turn at any time on our "help."

At home, he cannot get ready for deployment as he has a job, serves on three commitees as chair which meet at the same time leaving him in a classic Catch 22. But the tasker says Iraq needs someone with his credentials.
We are tapped out.
We don't need to signal our withdrawl so the poor soldiers remaining get the brunt of the suicide attacks. We just need to leave! Period. Let the chaos begin. So right Sarah. Run for office

*sigh*
I suppose this needs to be repeated.

Saddam Hussein was no threat to America. In fact Saddam Hussein was a secularist whose future was tied to opposing radical religionists. Hussein was the enemy of Iran, and with our support, he fought a long and bloody war against fundamentalist Iran. (Which makes our protestations about Iranian arms in Iraq sound pretty pathetic.)

We need to compare something here.

At the point in time when Iraq did have significant WMD programs, the US attacked and destroyed those programs in a one day operation which resulted in zero American casualties and cost about 500 million dollars. The Duelfer/Kay reports on Iraqi WMD's indicate specifically that the Clinton aerial attacks effectively ended all Iraqi WMD programs.

Contrast that to the Bush plan. 4 years, 600 billion dollars, and 3500+ lives and no end in sight.

Don't let the argument slide from goal to goal. If the issue was protecting the US from WMD's Clinton's approach was more effective by several orders of magnitude. If the issue is protecting us from radical extremists, then leaving Saddam in power would have been a better solution.

No matter how you cut this, the Bush effort to remake teh Middle East by military force was delusional and ineffective on a global scale.

Conservative
This silliness about Iraq is almost overwhelming.
ONLY liberals go to war for nothing. That is the part these people don't get!!!!!!!!!
The Republican Party got totally highjacked by the liberal wing, go to war over nothing, spend money like drunks, lose all the income to pay for war and spending. That is why they will lose. Because they had become flaming liberals!

Cut and Run Defeat
“Everything in our nation’s history and character demonstrates that we will gravely punish those who crave surrender.”
Rush Limbaugh, The Limbaugh Letter, June 2007


Those with any sense
Will move their family as far away from any major city ASAP, then seat in the front porch on a rocking chair and see the America our elites are getting ready to create as it burns to the ground at a distance.

Democrats cannot control MS-13 in the inner city but think the same policies serve to handle Ahmadinejad and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Republicans, will sell their country to get third world type wages.

The ones put US Marines in jail, the others do the same with border patrol agents.

When the elites embrace corruption and nihilism the simple people will find the nearest extremism to embrace.

The attraction of every radical religion is that eliminates all ambiguity




We are long overdue for Secession
Hugh is pointing out what ALL of us already know: We are no longer the "United" States of America. He just as usual offers no solutions - just more of what everybody does in talk radio and blogville and indeed all of the media - complain! We are wasting our time remianing in a "Union" whose press is interminally controlled by a hostile anti-American, anti-Conservative elitist, well-heeled, out-of-touch Liberal Northeastern Establishment that has absolutely ZILCH in common with everyday Americans. This is a rigged system we are in: can any of you NOT see this for what it is??? It is a useless waste of our time - an uphill battle we can never win and shouldn't be fighting in the first place. It has been said that one should choose their battles wisely. Why are we wasting our time fighting these Liberals in a patently unfair fight in a patently unfair media where our side gets pilloried and misrepresented with lies upon lies upon lies. What is the sense in arguing with overly emotional pathological liars like the Bill and Hillary Clintons and Cindy Sheehans and other such Liberals in the world. We are just PRETENDING we are united. I listen to former Democrat, wannabe-Conservative Bill Bennett every morning and marvel at how he, among many others in talk radio, is living in a dream world of the America of his youth when the parties at least stood for America and moral decency. He really acts "shocked" at the behavior of Harry Reid?!? WHY?!?! The time for being "SHOCKED" at the behavior of Democrats is long since over. In other words, it's time, Bill and Hugh and Sean and Rush and Neil and Laura and Ann, to wake up and smell the coffee before it's thrown in your face!!! AMERICA IS DIVIDED! AMERICA IS A DYSFUNCTIONAL FAMILY IN SERIOUS NEED OF A DIVORCE; the other party is trying to KILL us and threatening our very survival! The longer we prolong this inevitability, the more we will suffer for it and the more Americans will have to die needelssly because we waited too long living in our dream world of the America that was - the America of our youth, the America of our innocence when both parties produced Statesmen that loved this country and loved Christian morals. Those days are gone: get over it. To get them back, you must separate yourselves from EVIL. The Northeast is EVIL. The West Coast is EVIL. The Northeastern press by proxy is also EVIL. The Upper Midwest is unreliably somewhere in between. Democracy, to be tenable, depends at the very least on common decency; we don't even have THAT anymore in this country or in our government. It's time to part our ways with the Liberals. They don't even support our military. Why in the world would a nation choose to associate with regional elements who don't even support its military??? It boggles the mind; it's suicidal insanity!!! Are we to pretend that we can ever invade or attack Iran, if necessary, with 50% of our country opposing itself??? Such is the Theatre of the Absurd we find ourselves in with lukewarm moderate Conservative-wannabes in our Congress and on talk radio who don't have the balls to tell it like it is. Since when does a government remain solvent with 50% of the nation and its politicians committing TREASON during wartime?!? Since when does a nation(think THE ROMAN EMPIRE)remain solvent when it almost passes utterly patently ridiculously insane legislation that opens its borders to people who refuse to assimilate into its culture. The State of Georgia in advance of the recent insanity expressed contempt for this legislation in a joint statement by the legislature of Georgia. If it had passed, I believe the Conservative Georgia legislature would have seriously considered Articles of Secession against the Apostate government in DC that has abandoned its duties to protect its citizens. We were almost there: DAMN! It's just a matter of time, though. Hillary will take the Presidency in 2009 and the "Divided" States of America will be immediately hit with a full frontal assault by al Qaeda to test the new President just as they did with her husband and with "W" in their first year as President. We don't have to endure a Hillary Presidency if we go ahead and secede now. When this woman is in power, all hell is going to break loose. The ranks of al Qaeda will swell; America will be in grave danger like she has never known. Our troops, if deployed, will have to fight an even more politically correct war than they already are fighting, which will insure their defeat and senseless slaughter. She will cave to Ahmadinejad and probably elect to have "bi-lateral" talks with Iran(Don't you just love how all those Liberals in the State Department try to make themselves sound so intelligent with their fancy words like "bi-lateral" or "tri-lateral" or "multi-lateral"?) She will attempt like Kerry to voice all of her complaints through the U.N. to appear to be addressing the issue, which Iran will exploit to full effect. She will play right into Ahmadinejad's hands, and then one day, we'll wake up to pandemonium and pandora's box.

Sarah needs to wake up
Sarah, with all due respect, you cannot believe that we can stop Al Quedea if we cannot stop illegal immigrants from coming across our borders. If that is what you think will happen IF we are to stop the war in Iraq, good luck to everyone. We are inviting the thrid world and all of their issues inside our borders. I don't care who is at the top of the ticket, we are in trouble and we NEED TO DO SOMETHING!!!! We need to bond together and fight this terrorist threat. Don't drop our guard or we'll be sorry. That is FACT. WAKE UP PEOPLE! WE NEED TO BOND TOGETHER. THIS IS A WORLD WAR. DON'T KID YOURSELVES IN THINKING OTHERISE.

I pray for our country and its people...even for those who don't believe...

E

wildwest
you are right about needing a different strategy to fight terrorism and that is precisely why we are failing in iraq.

that is also why every general including petraeus has said we cannot win this war militarily.

bush does not seem to understand that.

sleazy politician
conventional wars are things of the past. The only conflicts that will be fought will be between the west and the islamists. Since the blood-cult places no values on civilians their tactics will remain the same. The west will have to understand that fighting these cowards will cause huge civilian casualties . The west will have to understand they will have to cut the head off the snake and that will mean the elimination of the mad mullahs and the oil sheiks who are funding and enabling the killers. We are fighting an ideology and that is going to require a very different strategy

The Dems are no better...
in fact, they're absolutely complicit in this war. They voted for it and they're worse than the Repubs on other isses.

What I fear the most is Hillary with even more D seats in Congress. My greatest hope is Ron Paul, a Republican, last I checked. He's the only candidate who would get us out of foreign entanglements rather than pander to special interests, slam the door on illegal immigration rather than pander to specific voting blocs, cut taxes, entitlements, and worthless bureaucracy, and someone who respects the Constitution. If Paul doesn't win (and he's a long shot), the best I can hope for is gridlock.

The Dems winning Congress and the White House is the worst possible outcome (they've indicated strong support for the Bush Doctrine, and would raise taxes and entitlements immediately). That's why I think articles like Hewitt's are so ridiculous. Getting rid of moderate Republicans for trying to get out of Iraq and handing over the White House to Hillary with more congressional seats is ludicrous. And pragmatically speaking, the Repubs can't win the presidency on a pro-war ticket. Americans are tired of war, so they'll even vote Hillary in over Mitt or Rudy. Ron Paul would have the best shot against her or Obama.

Folks
Good Night and be well. I won't be here tomorrow I am off to Walter Reed

SLEAZY POLITICIAN
"U.S. Will Never WIN" Oh stop it! I have to leave but I certainly wanted to point out that the US and her Allies won the Cold War. Get a grip. It does not count because we won without nuclear war?

SLEAZY POLITICIAN
In a few minutes these guys will straighten your thinking out.
It took a few posts, but I've been rehabilitated.

In 2008 we will have a government run right for a change.

Read my previous posts and you will see how wrong I was.

I can't understand what got into me.

I guess all these years of reading Free Republic.

What can I say about such evil brain washing.

But, they will help you understand the error of your ways.

al
I can see now since you made it so clear that we really have nothing to fear but the Republicans that continue creating all these problems.

Come 2008, we will have a Democratic president, Democratic congress and things aught to be looking up soon.

The troops will be back home, Al Queda will take a rest, Iran will continue building there peaceful nuclear power plants. Immigration will be settled and the Mexicans will enjoy the fruits of a new home. Democrats are good at increasing entitlements, so I souldn't have a thing to worry about, my social security check should be safe.

You know, I'm really feeling better already. I just don't know how I let all this conservative rheteric get into my mind and screw it up.

I'm really sorry guys that I made all of these redicules statements.

My apologies.

Sarah Well Done
Sarah, your email to Hugh is very well written and makes a lot of sense. Too bad no one will take your advice.

U.S. Will Never WIN
The U.S. will never win another War, short of an all out nuclear war. We did not win the Korean war. We brokered a line in the sand deal at the 38th parallel. We did not win the Vietnam war because it was not fought like WW1 or WW11. The liberal pacifists caused the gutless politicians to fight the Vietnam war, and of course we lost. We lost all thosae lives for nothing. What a dam shame. The politicians who sent our boys to die in Vietnam should have been shot. We will not win in Iraq for the same reason we lost in Vietnam. The liberals and Dems. would rather see us lose than to let Bush take credit for winning. Bush has no guts, and has asked our soldiers to fight a PC war. Wars cannot be fought in a PC manner. Carpet bomb the hell out of them. Turn the whole friggin place into dust. Then we will have victory. I will nevr support our getting involved in another war. We will never win because we have lost our common sense and have succumbed to PC. The only way to defeat an enemy is to be more ruthless than the enemy. If one engages in war, one should be prepared to do whatevr is necessary to win the dam thing. Otherwise stay out. Pull out of Iraq tomorrow. Every soldier killed between now and when we do finally leave with our tail between our legs will be a life lost for absolutely nothing. This is beginning to look like Vietnam all over again.Hope all of you are stockpiling plenty of guns and ammo because you will need it when the terrorists detonate a dirty bomb here and send the population into utter chaos. We saw from what happened in New Orleans after Katrina that our Govt. is too incompetent to protect us. The gangs and roaming band of thugs will have a field day here, robbing, looting and murdering. You better be prepared to defend your life and that of your family. It will be every man for himself. Girlie men libs will likely be the first casulties. Ironic, isn't it?

apoplectic...
So are we the only thing standing between radical Islamic revolution in the entire Middle East? I don't think so. And even if we are, I don't think I should be forced to prop up dictators with some shady human rights records. Our government hands over hundreds of millions of our hard-earned tax dollars to the governments of Egypt and Jordan every year. That's not what our founders had in mind.

And, yes, my non-interventionist stance would mean that we stay out of *any* conflict *anywhere* in the world. If Pakistan attacked Iran, the Iranians may not like us for remaining neutral, but they wouldn't attack us for it. They'd attack Pakistan. Pakistani militants, however, would have *every* reason to attack us if we intervened against them. This is why we need to listen to Washington's sage advice.

Iraq War - A bad marriage
Hi Hugh:



I have immense respect for you and your opinion (most of the time - say 95% of the time) but on your views to stay in Iraq - I find all the arguments given by you and other like minded conservatives to be unconvincing. The purpose of writing this email is to give you a conservative perspective on why we need to withdraw from Iraq.



1. When Bush led us into war 5 years ago, he gave us 6 good reasons to invade Iraq, I and 70% of the americans agreed then that these reasons made sense and we supported him in his endeavour........after the 6 goals were accomplished and we confirmed whether or not there were WMD's, changed regimes, asssisted the Iraqi's in their first elections, assisted Iraqi's in drafting their constitution, and brought saddam to justice......our role should have shifted from full scale military involvement to military support and consultation whereby the Iraqi government consults with us and we offer them military assistance while they handle at least 80% of the tactical and operational matters...........



2. As the administration and Dr. Rice have admitted errors were made, and these errors have lead the administration into a very unclear path - the reasons for staying in iraq have shifted from the original clear concise 6 reasons to..............freedom in the middle east - here is why all the arguments to stay in Iraq do not make sense anymore and can easily be compared to a marriage gone bad.....

If we leave Iraq alqaeda will bring the war to us here in the USA - I think if we re-locate our troops from Iraq to the USA and invest the 8 billion a month in defending our country, we can handle anything alqaeda brings to our land and then some!
The Iraqi's need us to stay otherwise their country will turn into chaos as they kill each other and go into full blown civil war - actually all countries that have independence and freedom today have had to endure some type of civil war and chaos before the citizens decided how to live together. Also, whether we leave today or ten years from today - day one will be day one and whatever chaos we think we are stopping will still take place sooner or later but chaos can't be avoided.
If Iraq becomes a free democratic country, the citizens are less likely to join alqaeda because a free people are less likely to become jihadists - how do you explain the doctors in England? Also, the assumption that Iraq will become a free democratic country is unfounded - so far the non-jihadist muslims are very slow to criticize the jihadists and when they do, it is because non-muslims around the world have insisted that they do so......on what basis do we believe that they will suddenly love freedom and democracy as we define it???
The USA completed its mission when the original 6 goals were accomplished and while you and other protagonists are willing to "stay the course" we the other conservatives believe that this is like a bad marriage. Two people begin by promising to live together for better or worse till death do them part - somewhere between these vows and "tactical errors" the relationship is redifined and it becomes a new relationship whereby both spouses no longer know how to meet each other's needs. The love and good intentions that started the relationship may have been noble but with time, the spouses realize that divorce while painful and may hurt the children is better than the marriage which is creating more pain than gain and the reasons for staying together are now becoming a string of cliches bonded together by wishful thinking........but then again even after divorce, the spouses can remain friends and still make joint decisions that are in the best interest of their children...and WHEN we withdraw from Iraq, we can still play a consultative role with the government and offer military assistance and share intelligence while they deal with the operational and tactical issues affecting their country. Every other country has endured death and war on the road to freedom and Iraq will not be an exception - we are delaying the inevitable because day one will be day one whether that is today or ten years from now. I hope for our sake it is today and not ten years from now. It is time to end this bad marriage between Iraq and the USA



Respectfully,

Sarah



al
Sorry Al, I disagree about your assessment of Radical Islam.

This problem starts and ends with religion.

Pulling out of Iraq is not going to stop them from attacking us. We could leave every country in the world where they reside and they would still hate everyone who is not abiding by there law.

France has been against our involvement from the start. Why did they get attacked.

I'm really not in much of a mood to argue the issue.

We'll see in 15-20 years if you are still around.

Firefox...
I'll respond to your points:

I do believe that we have dealt to softly with Iraqi leadership while our brave shoulders died. I don’t like that.
I believe miscalculations have been made in Iran’s interference, Syria’s interference.

-Where's the evidence for interference from Syria? I think this is a ruse to extend the war. Thankfully, our pols are finally realizing that this quagmire will not win them re-election and are pushing getting out of Iraq rather than into Iran and Syria.

But, that doesn’t change the fact that we have a reason to be involved in this war.

If we do not stop these fanatics, they are going to be killing your loved one here.

-What's the reason to be involved in Iraq? What threat did Iraq pose before we went in? And I disagree with your assumption that they'll fight us over here if we leave. In fact, the only reason why they came over here is because of our interventionist foreign policy in the Middle East since WWII.

You may say what does Iraq have to do with any of this?

If it were for no other reason than to have a base to launch from, it would be a good reason to be there.

-Why is that a good reason to be there? Having a military presence over there is what makes people want to kill us. How would you like it if the Chinese Army occupied a base in your city? Would you not be offended seeing uniformed, armed Communist soldiers walking your streets? And it's incredibly costly to maintain bases on foreign lands.

I believe that Iraq was a threat just like Iran is a threat.

We are going to pay dearly for letting Iran get nukes.

If Iraq had of been left a lone, they would have continued to develop a nuclear program.

We could not afford to let that happen.

-I disagree. Iraq was no threat, and Iran is no threat. Who cares even if Saddam or Iran got nukes? They'd never use them on us because it would assure their destruction. Why are you comfortable with Russia, France, England, Israel, Pakistan, India, and China all having nukes, but not Iran? Besides, our invasion of Iraq provided them with all motivation they'd ever need to acquire nukes. Remember, the Axis of Evil was Iran, Iraq, and N. Korea. N. Korea already had nukes - no way will we invade. Iraq didn't, so we invaded. Of course Iran will pursue nuclear weapons. It's the only thing that will prevent a maniacal president from invading them.

We are not risking conventional war any longer. We are facing destruction if we miscalculate on one of these fanatics. They don’t care if they die. They don’t care if they kill other Arabs. They don’t observe the Geneva Convention. They don’t care if they kill children, old unarmed grandmothers. It doesn’t matter to them.

-We need to be careful about things like violating the Geneva Convention. As Americans, we should believe torture is wrong, period. We need to be above the fray. Besides, military attorneys are complaining that many held at Gitmo are not terrorists. Torturing these people is unconscionable, and only justifies terrorism against our innocent civilians.

We have only been able to wage war in that region because countries have allowed us to use there bases.

-And terrorists use our bases as a recruiting tool. Without our intervention, there's no need for war in the Middle East.

Iraq is a strategic country for national defense. It is to our advantage to secure this country as an ally. Call it anything you want, nation building, what ever, we need this country on our side.

-Ok, so why not lift all trade restrictions and allow Iraqis to govern themselves as they see fit? Oh, and didn't Candidate Bush campaign against nation building in 2000?

We have gotten no advantage from there oil. We have poured hundreds of billions of dollars into this war and have taken nothing out of it.

-Right - the war has been an unmitigated disaster from the start, and we have nothing to show for it. Are you suggesting that Iraq owes us oil? That kind of mentality supports the extremists' claims that we're crusaders and only want their natural resources.

Even if you think Bush has don’t a botched job on this, you have to agree that these fanatics want to kill us and it not because we are sticking our nose into there business.
It’s all about there fanatical religion.

-Actually, no, I don't agree with that. Certainly there are fanatic Muslims there, but they were never hostile to the US until we starting interfering in their business. Why not try to establish peaceful relations with them?

Ali has told them that the world should conform to there law. They are attacking anybody that disagrees with them including other Muslims.

-yes, they do attack other Muslims, but they wouldn't attack us if we stayed out of there.

Sorry if I caused offense to you guys, this is how I see it right or wrong.

No hard feelings

No offense taken, and no hard feelings at all. We're just talking here!

repubs and dems
both parties proved their betrayal to the american people over the immigration issue. Unfortunately the dems view illegals the same way they view islamists, they are incapable of seeing the threat. It will unfortunately take another horrific event for them to see the danger. The congress has refused to deal with social security and medicare but likewise cannot see the worse danger of letting the illegals continue to steal our social services, which they take but pay little if anything into. Both parties need to understand their duty to protect the country, Unfortunately the dems have again shown they lack the moral fortitude to stand up for america. They have become the cut and run party. In their mad rush to introduce socialism they will betray everything america stands for. Pelosi and reid have both proven to be ineffective leaders so congress flounders and accomplishes nothing. Americans spoke up and stopped the amnesty legislation. Our duty now is to hold those in congress accountable. If they won't defend america from both our present dangers, the illegals and the islamists we need to elect new legislators who will not only fullfill that duty but overturn the shameful legislation they have passed at our expense but favored their special interest friends who have far more clout in washington than the citizens who send these representatives to run the country. We need to take a serious look at all of congress and send those who betray our values packing. The repubs have voiced this as their future course of action. I hope those on the dem side will take a similar courageuos stand and help end the status quo.

apoplectic
If you think leaving the Middle East is the answer, you need to study this a little closer.

apoplectic...
Apparently you didn't catch the news about Iran running out oil by 2020. That's why they would appreciate very much for us to just pick up and leave Iraq.

But, I guess after they take over Iraq they might still sell us some oil.

But, then with nukes and all, they probaly could convince Saudi to vacate as well.

Then we would have all the oil we need.

Sounds like a plan.


al
Yes, attacks would cease for now. I think you give the radicals far too little credit. It would not be just Saudi. It would be Kuwait, Egypt, Jordon, UAE, and Pakistan. Of course with Pakistan comes the Nuke. As for Iran, they would not suddenly become our friends with a bunch of radical sunni's hands on a nuke next door. After all, it's not like we would lift a finger to help them under your isolationist theory. As for giving the radicals too much credit, well they've already done more than any nation in history. They've pretty much attacked all of the world powers and have not been destroyed. You give them far too little credit.

wildwest
Hi,

Glad to get some help.

Hal Donahue
We have no disagreement on how portions of this war have been waged. We have trusted leaders on sight to assess the situation. There’s no question that miscalculations have been made.

I do believe that we have dealt to softly with Iraqi leadership while our brave shoulders died. I don’t like that.
I believe miscalculations have been made in Iran’s interference, Syria’s interference.

I’ve sat here watching our shoulders get hit with IED’s and wondering why we couldn’t make some impact on stopping it.

But, that doesn’t change the fact that we have a reason to be involved in this war.

If we do not stop these fanatics, they are going to be killing your loved one here.

If I were not too old, I would be there trying to do what I could to keep one of these fanatics from killing my grand children.

You may say what does Iraq have to do with any of this?

If it were for no other reason than to have a base to launch from, it would be a good reason to be there.

I don’t think that any reason person believes that we are there to liberate to Iraqis. There are places all over the world that are under dictatorships.

I believe that Iraq was a threat just like Iran is a threat.

We are going to pay dearly for letting Iran get nukes.

If Iraq had of been left a lone, they would have continued to develop a nuclear program.

We could not afford to let that happen.

We are not risking conventional war any longer. We are facing destruction if we miscalculate on one of these fanatics. They don’t care if they die. They don’t care if they kill other Arabs. They don’t observe the Geneva Convention. They don’t care if they kill children, old unarmed grandmothers. It doesn’t matter to them.

Some of those who posted are correct when they say that we are spread thin. They are correct when they say that it is costly.

Lives have been lost and I don’t like it either. But, I don’t believe one of those men over there think that it’s not a cause worth fighting for. They may not like the way the leaders are handling it, but they know that if they don’t stabilize Iraq that radical Islam is going to engulf the entire Middle East and we won’t have a base to fight it from.
We will have no choice but to defend ourselves with nukes.

We have only been able to wage war in that region because countries have allowed us to use there bases.

Iraq is a strategic country for national defense. It is to our advantage to secure this country as an ally. Call it anything you want, nation building, what ever, we need this country on our side.

We have gotten no advantage from there oil. We have poured hundreds of billions of dollars into this war and have taken nothing out of it.

Even if you think Bush has don’t a botched job on this, you have to agree that these fanatics want to kill us and it not because we are sticking our nose into there business.
It’s all about there fanatical religion.

Ali has told them that the world should conform to there law. They are attacking anybody that disagrees with them including other Muslims.

Sorry if I caused offense to you guys, this is how I see it right or wrong.

No hard feelings

lostgop
amazing how your libs climb on the moral bandwagon when repubs get caught with their fingers in the cookie jar. Did you also get the vapors when that dirty joke from arkansaa was using the oval office as a pick-up bar and sold political favors to line his own pocket. I doubt you had the same consistency or standards. Red nancy was going to change things but championed one of the biggest crooks in the house. Does john murtha and his ear marks to campaign supporters cause you any lost sleep. I doubt it.

apoplectic...
George Washington's (and Jefferson's and Adams') advice was to remove ourselves from all entangling foreign affairs. I believe this is what we should do today, just like it's what we should have done 200+ years ago.

So you're agreeing with me that terrorism against American civilians would essentially cease if we were to leave the Middle East. Isn't that pretty much our goal of our "war on terror"?

As for our allies, Israel can take care of itself. It's a nuclear power (thanks to our government) with a very competent military. Besides, their conflicts are none of our business. Why do Americans sound alarm bells everytime some crackpot spouts off hostile rhetoric about Israel? Judging by the rhetoric coming from the right, I believe the Iraq War was waged in large part on behalf of Israel. To fight another country's war is simply unconscionable. This is why our founders wanted us to steer clear of foreign entanglements.

I think you give the terrorists way too much credit. Let's say al-Qaeda does take over the brutal dictatorship that we prop up in Saudi Arabia - they still need our money more than we need their oil. And there are lots of other oil-rich nations we could trade with. For instance, we could possibly re-establish diplomatic relations with Iran. I know, I know, their president says bad things about Israel. So what? Why should we care? If our government would stay out of things and lift trade restrictions, we'd be much better off.

Another assumption I disagree with concerns unification of all Muslim radicals. Radical Shiites are not friendly with radical Sunnis or radical Wahabbis, so I don't believe a wave of one form of militant Islam will take over the Middle East and then Europe. Other Muslim radicals will stop this before we're ever affected.

This takes me back to my original point: if we pull out of the Middle East, we will effectively kill the motivation to use terrorism against American civilians. It's the only sensible solution.


foxfire22
OK fair enough then and thank you for all your service. But then you know that we accept going in harm's way but with the silent prayer that we not be sold cheap. I propose to you sir that these cardboard cowboys sold us cheap. If this was a call to action for the nation or a serious effort it would be different even if I did oppose the invasion of Iraq as an unneeded diversion. But the arrogance and carelessness of this regime in Iraq demands retribution at some point. We had better refocus on Al Q and very soon

Hal
"This regime lost, saw destroyed, pick a term a major US city and port. They walked away and let it go...,

Washington DC at the time was infested (I chose the term just for you LOL) with R's all who acted like true sissies (not that their is anything wrong with that I guess)."

Yeah sure. If memory serves, Mississippi was clobbered by the same storm. The major difference was Mississippi had competent local and state leadership (they would be the ones with an "R" next to their name). As for DC, once again all of the local leadership, (Mayor, City Council) had "D" next to their names. It is not a coincidence. Look at the worst run city in America (Detroit), another shining example of Democrat leadership. Coincidence? I think not!!

al
"Muslim extremists will never like us. However, if we leave the Middle East now, 1) they won't be motivated to kill us, and 2) they won't garner any support from moderates. Our presence over there polarizes the region and is the most effective recruiting tool for the murderous b*stards."

Well of course they won't be motivated to kill us if we pull out of the middle east and remove all support for all of our allies (Israel and secular regimes). That is after all their first goal. Have you considered what the consequences will be once they start overthrowing all of those secular regimes and have control of all that oil? Do you understand that they will use the oil as a weapon to reap havoc on the economies of their enemies as well as using the oil profits to fund their conquest of the world? At what point do you think we should become involved. After they've recaptured Spain? Do we wait until they've conquered all of Europe? Maybe you would prefer to wait until it's our turn.

Hal Donahue
Please don't lecture me on sacrafice. My father, two brothers, myself,and my two sons served proudly.

We seen some of the bloodiest battles in history. We know what sacrafice is first hand.

Using the term roll the dice may have been a poor choice of terms. Still doesn't change the context.

apoplectic
Just so you do not mislearn LOL. "Not to worry. I had no idea Washington DC and New Orleans were such conservative cities either. I learn something new from Hal every day!!!"

This regime lost, saw destroyed, pick a term a major US city and port. They walked away and let it go...,

Washington DC at the time was infested (I chose the term just for you LOL) with R's all who acted like true sissies (not that their is anything wrong with that I guess).

Expound Truth
"Left policing evil,Right battling evil" that post was a total lie. I find it so interesting you are forced to do that...

I believe al-Q is common terrorists too
but they wouldn't go to all the trouble of attacking the US had we not intervened in the Middle East. Yes, they are common terrorists and murderers, and I fully support our campaign in Afghanistan. However, I believe 9/11 would never have happened had we not intervened in 1991 and didn't set up shop in Saudi Arabia. Wahabbi Muslim extremists are fighting the Saudi government that our government props up. The extremists' motive to kill us is clear.

Yes, al-Qaeda are hostile to secular Muslim governments, but that has nothing to do with us. It's a power struggle between murderous Islamic extremists and iron-fisted secular (and sometime religious) governments. And their terrorist activities in Asia are all unique as well (fighting over Kashmir in India/Pakistan).

Muslim extremists will never like us. However, if we leave the Middle East now, 1) they won't be motivated to kill us, and 2) they won't garner any support from moderates. Our presence over there polarizes the region and is the most effective recruiting tool for the murderous b*stards.

Left policing evil,Right battling evil
__The left,in their control mood,seek to limit the actions of this evil.The right seeks to totally destroy this evils ability.The evil they both acknowledge with different forms of acknowledgment.Both acknowledge the terrorist has a limited group of people inspiring fear in others by violent means.The left feels they can leave them alone in their sandbox,and keep them confined there.The right,on the other hand,knows the result of this approach,as past experience has proved.In the end we have one side taking speculative measures,and the other taking measures that proved speculation wrong.One does not want to accept responsibility,the other doesn't want to gloat,and be portrayed as a bully.

foxfire22
Not to worry. I had no idea Washington DC and New Orleans were such conservative cities either. I learn something new from Hal every day!!!

foxfire22
"Let’s see if I got this right, the military is too small, the war is a failure, and it might take longer than we have the stomach and money for anyway."

You didn't get it right at all

"Boy, I’m glad we didn’t have you guys fighting on our side during the Revolutionary war; the price might have been too high."

It is a price evidently your ilk and the Bush Regime are loath to pay. To take your example we would have only fought the revolutionary war with the Concord Boys - no need to spend the money to raise a proper army. Oh you apparently would have done a lot of shopping too and we would now have nice British accents.

"You were filled with pride when our boys were move at the speed of light, kicking butt, but now it’s a quagmire."

No I was not I was fooled once with promises we know but can't tell you logic to get into a war.

"It is immaterial whether WMD’s were there or not, we needed to deter the massing of evil in that region."

What Osama and Taliban Afghanistan were not EVIL enough?

"I personally believe that the leadership of Iraq and Iran were dangerous and a threat to national security. If I could have taken out Iran with a surgical strike, I would have."

Only valid if you PERSONALLY went with them.

"We rolled the dice and took out the one we feel that we could handle. Just because things have been difficult does not mean that there was no cause."

WE ROLLED THE DICE!!!!! and who paid and continues to pay for a bad dice roll? I certainly hope you have lots of loved ones involved in this but I suspect not

"If a nuke went off in N.Y, these liberals would be wondering if we could just write this one off. If the enemy would just let you live without giving up to much."

You guys lost a great American City, New Orleans, without a whimper. Two sad snipers terrified and nearly shut down much of Republican Congress and President Washington. NYC and the entire NE was up and running in days if not hours from 9/11. That is right us NE, diverse, crazy, immigrant infested, liberals. It isn't us without the guts. Now take your sorry backside and go do some really patriotic shopping!!!!!!!

Sorry for jumping in Akagi /St.Steve/religiouslib but this cheap nonsense is too over the top

Lincoln No Hero
Here's one little spot north of the Mason-Dixon where Lincoln is not considered a hero. He voided the constitution of the United States and we have not been able to return to the original document and now content ourselves with the 'living document.'

It is my view that the South, having already given up slavery, would have worked out other differences in time and seen the wisdon of rejoining the Union.

Akagi /St.Steve/religiouslib
Let’s see if I got this right, the military is too small, the war is a failure, and it might take longer than we have the stomach and money for anyway.

Sounds reasonable to me.

I suggest that we get on the phone and order Bush to pull-um out tomorrow.

We can’t win this anyway, what’s the use.

I guess we’ve just have to eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die anyway.

Hey, it might take 200, 000 more dead troops to survive another 10 years.

I think it would be best to bring them home and let them spend it with there families.

Boy, I’m glad we didn’t have you guys fighting on our side during the Revolutionary war; the price might have been too high.

You still can’t see the value in us being there can you.

You were filled with pride when our boys were move at the speed of light, kicking butt, but now it’s a quagmire.

It is immaterial whether WMD’s were there or not, we needed to deter the massing of evil in that region. I personally believe that the leadership of Iraq and Iran were dangerous and a threat to national security.

If I could have taken out Iran with a surgical strike, I would have.

But, Bush knew the same thing you suggested; we don’t have enough troops to maintain a war with Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran.

We rolled the dice and took out the one we feel that we could handle.

Just because things have been difficult does not mean that there was no cause.

I’ve never seen a time when people have lost there guts to fight for anything that cost them like today.

If a nuke went off in N.Y, these liberals would be wondering if we could just write this one off. If the enemy would just let you live without giving up to much.

When you wake up, and it’s gone, it will be too late.

Anyone who has read Ezekiel 38, 39 knows that these people are a threat.

But, then you people don’t believe that anyway.


apoplectic
scary huh LOL

pontus
"The Republican Party" posting that was the party before the fundies and conservatives took control. Now those folks are some how called RINO

Hal
I think h3ll just froze over!!

al
I seldom agree with apoplectic but he is right about Al Q. They are common terrorists. There is nothing special about them except they got lucky through US (both parties) neglect and confusion and owned Afghanistan then got even luckier again through US (both parties) neglect and confusion and effectively attacked the country. OK they should now have our attention (but still do not) but they are far from being either 10 ft tall or religious. It is about power and opportunity. Just hunt them down and punish them

al
"Have you read why al-Qaeda is hostile against us in the first place? If not, here it is: we got involved in Kuwait, a fundamentalist Wahabbi country."

That is precisely what they want you to believe. That is however, a lie. If that were the case, then why are they attacking secular muslim gov'ts across the middle east. Why are they killing people in Indonesia, the Phillipines, Thailand, and India just to name a few. They are executing a plan to convert the whole world to Sharia law. They believe that it is their duty as good muslims. Read "Milestones" by Qutb. I guarantee you every terrorist out there has!!!

Jack
"And you are wrong about one more important thing. I have never indicated we should precipitously leave Iraq. You assume that because I think Bush is catastrophically incompetent that I want the US to leave. I want BUSH to leave, admit the war was a disaster, and let realists make the decisions on Iraq."

That is the finest summation I have seen here to date! Well done and I wish I had said that

The Republican Party
The beleifs of this party are not present in this administration. The repbulican party is based on Limited government, Balanced budgets, a defense second to none. A trade policy that puts America and Americans first. SECURE BORDERS, and a foreign policy that keeps us our wars that are not America's wars.


Foxy Brown
I know exactly what the big picture is, and I knew it BEFORE we went in to Iraq.

I knew for example, that Iraqi Shia were the majority, were beholding to Iran, were religiosly conservative, and would end up taking over the government if Hussein were deposed.

I also knew that The Kurds are far more religiously conservative than they are secular and that they would end up creating their own state and becoming a problem for Turkey and providing a haven for religious terrorists.

I knew that Iran has limited oil reserves and would be very interested in taking over Iraq if Hussein were deposed.

I also knew that Iran's nuclear program would be accelerated if they felt threatned by the US and that the opportunity for internal change in Iran would be minimal if the US set the Iranian leadership on the defensive.

You are wrong about Saudi Arabia. They had no fear of Hussein at all. Their biggest concern is and was religious extremists inside Saudi Arabia, extremists who would be aided by an American invasion of an Arab/Muslim country.

These are the things the Bush administration didn't bother to consider. I knew that stuff from start.

And you are wrong about one more important thing. I have never indicated we should precipitously leave Iraq. You assume that because I think Bush is catastrophically incompetent that I want the US to leave. I want BUSH to leave, admit the war was a disaster, and let realists make the decisions on Iraq.


I have a Plan B
How about pulling out of Iraq and *every* country in the world? How about not getting involved in *any* foreign entanglements? You know, like Washington, Jefferson, and John Adams suggested we do? That would do wonders to remove the animosity people feel toward us and would effectively remove any motivation anyone would have to commit terrorist acts against us.

Have you read why al-Qaeda is hostile against us in the first place? If not, here it is: we got involved in Kuwait, a fundamentalist Wahabbi country. Bin Laden wanted to be the one to kick out the secular infidel Sunni Saddam. Americans did it instead, which militant Wahabbists (you know, freedom fighters against the godless Soviets) found to be incendiary. We then opened military bases on their holy lands in Saudi Arabia. Had we never become involved in the Middle East, al-Qaeda would never have attacked us, according to al-Qaeda leaders.

I know - George W. said they hate us for our freedom. It has nothing to do with our armed presence in the Middle East, the scores of thousands of civilian casualties over there at our hands, or our unquestioning support for Israel, no matter how much Arab civilian collateral damage they're responsible for.

Joe...
I agree that we have a 2 party monopoly in DC right now. I hate that 3rd parties are excluded from the debates, because, from what I can tell in 2000 and 2004, there's hardly a difference between Ds and Rs (hence, monopoly, not duopoly). Both are criminally fiscally irresponsible with taxpayer money, both start elective wars and send others off to fight and die for, and both expand the size and scope of the federal government whenever possible.

The lone exception to this rule among the Gang of 535 in DC is Ron Paul. Voting records speak louder than rhetoric. Mitt and Rudy talk the conservative talk, but look at NYC under Rudy and Mass under Mitt. Both of them are panderers. Both favor big government socialistic programs and gun control. Both pander on abortion. Ron Paul has *always* voted with the Constitution and never waivered. He's never sold out to any special interest, so I have no reason to believe he'll start now.

While I agree with you in principle, I think that 3rd party candidates who preach the same message as Dr. Paul will only serve to inhibit his candidacy. And, with no Congressional voting record, I'd see you more as an unknown than Dr. Paul - I know what I'm getting with him.

religiouslib
Couldn't answer the question huh? That's okay. Realistically, there is no Plan B. That is the fundamental problem that none of you who are for running out of Iraq can answer! The sad part is it will probably be your ilk (without a clue) running things soon. Don't get too comfortable though, it won't be long before the sh$t hits the fan and Americans wake up to the horrendous mistake they have made. Hopefully then we will take the threat seriously!!

dale
Yeah, I had to flip back to the title and re-read the article. It is about the RINOs in the GOP and their eventual ousting from the party by conservatives. Seems most posters have slid into a debate on the Iraq war and whether it was justified.

WOW
It sounds like the right is really coming apart in here. Back to WMD's and anyone who disagrees is a coward? I guess it does get extremely difficult swallowing Bush lies going back years that things are getting better.... and then today news that Al Q is back at 9/11 levels we sure showed those guys.... Does nothing shame or embarrass you folks?

Al
If you vote for Ron Paul, you might be supporting a true conservative, but that is not the point of my post.

The problem is the power hold that both parties currently enjoy that is strangling this nation. Because these elites believe they are invulnernable, they willingly ignore the Constitution, rule of law, and will of the people. Electing anyone who is a Democrat or Republican will only serve to strengthen their belief that they are in full control. It is absolutely neccessary that we break that hold on power and let both parties know they cannot continue to advance their one world agenda. Ron Paul, if elected, would be beholden to the party elites, the PACs, and the lobbyists whose support would give him the win.

Since I am not beholden to any of these influences and I have no political career to maintain and no position of wealth to defend, I would better suited to stand up to these individuals and for the American people who are the rightful owners of this nation. You really should check out my website, as this forum cannot possibly provide the space needed to explain my points. I can assure though, that my website is thorough and the points I make there well founded. We will never reclaim our birthright if we elect a President from either party! If you can explain how that would happen, I am willing to listen and debate. I have offered up that challenge many times here, but to this day no one has taken it up. The reason is because I am absolutely correct on this. Another elite, from either party, will only result in more big government, less personal freedom, and greater influence to the internationalists who hate America!

The problem is not simply one of whether or not the next President is a true consevative (which I am), but whether or not we can stop the two party power structure from further sell out of our inheritance. That power hold must be broken and this is the election in which to do it. We cannot afford any more of this nonsense to continue! Thanks, Joe


ex-infantry
my only master is the Lord Jesus Christ.

i have never been to moveon.org in my life.

i read an listen to both left an right unlike yourself who seems to only hear one perspective.

in fact the 2 military guys who found the sarin that was 20 years old and opened it, had a headache and a slight rash for 2 days and that was all.

it was in the news but i guess you missed it because you only listen to biased conservative media instead of education yourself from all sides.

There were WMD's In Iraq - STUPID.
I am so tired of everyone saying "Bush Lied - People Died" & "There never found WMD's in Iraq".

Ask the Soldiers, ask the U.N. ( there were there - it's just how they define them is what allows them to say there wasn't, do some research, review the information.

Only the U.N. and the MSM and Democratic Defeatist are the only ones who won't admit the real truth because it doesn't serve their purpose.

If Bush Lied, guess what, so did Bill Clinton, Al Gore, & Hillary Clinton, and every other Senior Democrat in office at the time, because they all said the exact same thing, over and over and over....

For those that support the war
Answer me this:

What is the definition of victory in Iraq? What are the conditions in which the US forces can leave Iraq?

Is it a stable, functional democracy? How long do you expect that to take? Or maybe create a situation where violence has declined to a point that the US can "leave with honor" and when it all falls apart soon after the US forces leave the US can simply blame Iraq for the entire mess--just like the US did between February 1973 and April 1975 in Vietnam. So how many additional lives (Iraqi and American) will this take?

If the US had left Vietnam in 1969 or 1968 or 1967 or 1966 would the results have been any different from what happened in 1975? If the US withdraws in 2009 or 2010, will the results be any different than if the US begins the withdrawal in the fall of 2007?

So in my view you have two choices--occupation of Iraq for decades to eventually create victory or withdrawal either now or in a few years which basically bring you back to the same place--civil war and ultimate Shia victory after what will basically be genocide and an independent in fact or in name of Iraqi Kurdistan.

And stopping genocide is not a sufficient reason for the US to stay. So what will stay the course bring?


jack
You don't have a clue what the big picture is.

You don't have a clue that Iran is running out of oil. You don't have a clue that Saudi Arabia
was scared out its gourd that Iraq was going to come in to take its oil. You don't have a clue that Turkey is on the verge of attacking the Kurds in Iraq because they are rich in oil and want to unite with the Kurds in Turkey.
You don't have a clue that as soon as the US pulls out that Iran is moving in.
You don't have a clue that when Iran gets the nuke that Saudi Arabia is next.
You don't have a clue that when Iran gets the nuke that Israel is history if God does not protect them.
More than likely the US will be drawn into war with Iran.

All you seem to want is life like it use to be.

Well, it ain't gonna be like it use to be.

You want to stick to the facts. Try that a while.

Ex I
You know absolutely nothing about me. I don't have any masters, and I get my information from a vast array of sources. I understand sacrafice, but I have never understood being willingly ignorant. That's your department. Despite your protestations, your position runs counter to reality.

For example,the Bush administration defined success in Iraq as having a government that can support, defend, and sustain itself. Today we learned that the CIA Director told the President months ago that the Iraq government will never be able to do that.

So, how do you define success? Not losing? Was Churchill a defeatist for retreating at Dunkirk? Was R.E. Lee a defeatist for retreatign at Gettysburg and telling his soldiers that it was all his fault?

Success in the party
Sirs:

Hr Hewitt is correct in the point of his column, which it seems most of you have completely missed.

Enough of the republican voters will not support candidates for office who have done one or more of the following:

Sided with the D's to sidetrack our president's nominees to the courts.

Supported amnesty for those entering or staying in this country illegally whether for the purpose of blowing up Americans or undercutting our wages.

Ducked and ran whenever the D's find a new pseudoscandal.

Weakened our resolve to keep out nation safe by destroying our enemies abroad.

This is the reason John McCain's campaign is doing as well as it is. Republicans who love this country should not support his continual failure to stand for and with us.

Since Mr Smith has also done three of these he most likely will not be the senator from Oregon in 2009. I am one Oregon republican who will never vote for him again. If he is our candidate I will give my vote to the Constitution party. At this point I would rather see a D in that office than a D pretending to be an R.