Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Monday, October 27, 2008
Harry R. Jackson, Jr. :: Townhall.com Columnist
An Open Letter to Evangelicals
by Harry R. Jackson, Jr.
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


The most frequent objection of those who fear the presence of believers in government is, “What right do you have to impose your morals on us?” Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council tells them, “The same right you have to impose your lack of morals on us.” Someone’s values will always be reflected in public policy. Almost every government policy decision is a value judgment. In this postmodern world, where moral relativism is the philosophy of choice, these value judgments are often based on the conditions of the moment rather than objective, transcendent, biblical truth. This is where the two sides diverge.

Bible-believing Christians believe there is absolute truth, a view that was held by all Christians until the turn of the twentieth century. Belief in objective truth is the first step in developing a Christian worldview. A Christian worldview is based on the belief that there is a personal God who is directly involved in the activities of man and who authoritatively communicates to man through His Word and the Holy Spirit.

Shortly after the Civil War, the Protestant church divided over this belief in a literal interpretation of Scripture. Liberals moved away from Scripture as the sole authority in order to accommodate “rational truth,” which they saw as incompatible with the Bible. These liberals embraced the “essence of Christianity” rather than the inerrancy of Scripture so they could synthesize their Christian thought with so-called scientific findings of the day.

One of the preeminent voices to emerge in defense of absolute truth shortly after the turn of the century was a Princeton Theological Seminary professor and Presbyterian minister, J. Grescham Machen, who would later lead a split within the Presbyterian Church over the rejection of biblical orthodoxy. In his definitive work, Christianity and Liberalism, Machen said that liberalism was not only theologically wrong but was not connected at all to true Christianity. “What the liberal theologian has retained after abandoning to the enemy one Christian doctrine after another is not Christianity at all, but a religion which is so entirely different from Christianity as to belong in a different category.” Machen felt that the argument was no longer between two views of evangelicalism, conservative and liberal, but rather a conflict between two religions. Liberalism is “a type of faith and practice that is anti-Christian to the core,” Machen wrote.

What has transpired in many mainline denominations over the last one hundred years gives clear evidence of the results of abandoning absolute truth. Mainline denominations have shrunk in size and no longer debate the inerrancy of Scripture but issues such as the ordination of homosexuals. As we look at their decline, we wonder what will be next for a church or a society that has rejected absolute truth.

The present divide among evangelicals that the media frequently points to as “evidence” of the declining influence of the conservative Christian movement is not new. In 1984, Christian theologian Francis Schaeffer spoke to the cause of this divide—a rejection of absolute truth. Schaeffer chastised those who had compromised their view of Scripture and had accommodated the culture in the name of “love.”

Unfortunately, a growing number of Christians are influenced more by the popular culture than Scripture in terms of their worldview. Even younger evangelicals, who tend to track conservatively on most core social issues, do not consistently view the world from a biblical perspective. In late 2003, Christian sociologist and pollster George Barna conducted a fairly extensive poll on the prevalence of a “biblical or Christian worldview” in the United States. He defined biblical worldview as being based upon a foundation of eight beliefs:

1. Absolute moral truths exist.

2. The Bible defines these absolute moral truths.

3. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life during His ministry on the earth.

4. God created the universe and continues to rule it today. He is omnipotent and omniscient.

5. Salvation is a gift from God. It cannot be earned through good works or behavior.

6. Satan is a real living entity.

7. Christians have an obligation to share the gospel with the unsaved.

8. The Bible is accurate in all of its teachings.

What did he find? Only 4% of the total population of American adults have a biblical worldview. The fact that only 9% of born-again Christians have a biblical worldview was almost beyond belief.

In light of these dispiriting statistics, Christians must return to emphasizing God’s truth and God’s love. America currently stands at a crossroad. Many of our national problems are a result of our churches abandoning truth. It is not the institution that needs to seek God – it is every individual in each one of the nation’s pews.

A truly repentant church will experience a spiritual renewal. A renewed church can once again be salt and light to the nation. A critical mass of godly Christians must be reached. If we use the imagery of today’s light bulbs we don’t yet have a high enough wattage light bulb to truly lighten our nation. Once we have reached critical mass, the Lord will pour out tangible blessings upon the entire nation in honor of a faithful church that lives and preaches biblical truth.

Although the media often calls the faithful “divisive,” we must defend truth without compromise. Schaeffer reminded his readers that absolute truth requires confrontation. One cannot simultaneously accommodate the culture and stand for truth. But he also challenged those who defend truth to simultaneously display God’s love.

Our penchant for truth must also be displayed with compassion. It’s America’s only hope. Join me this week in fasting and praying for God’s choice for the presidential, congressional, senatorial, and other elections. Pray that a third great awakening will arise out the ashes of our economic woes. Join me serving the lost, the least, and the last.

This article is an adaptation of an excerpt from Personal Faith, Public Policy, written by Harry R. Jackson, Jr. and Tony Perkins (FrontLine Publishing). Visit www.hilc.org or www.frc.org for more information.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

Bishop Harry Jackson is chairman of the High Impact Leadership Coalition and senior pastor of Hope Christian Church in Beltsville, MD, and co-authored, Personal Faith, Public Policy [FrontLine; March 2008] with Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council.

Be the first to read Harry Jackson's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

Ranger29
You are a real winner. Morals can exist without God. Well why are there then so many people without morals. Take you for instance.

Outstanding column
I think I myself have written the second half of the first paragraph many times here at TH.

I, too, am shocked by the results of Barna's survey. I knew the numbers weren't good, judging by the stats my pastor has cited from other studies, but Barna's numbers are disturbing.

I have a strong suspicion that much of this phenomenon has been caused by an anti-intellectualization of Christianity in modern America. Rigorous theology is too often considered secondary, tertiary, or even disposable. Too many churches now promote the 1960s "all you need is love" message. The collective church has largely ceded the intellectual ground to secular humanism. Too many Christians view fields like philosophy, history, and the physical sciences with indifference, suspicion, and even hostility. Those fields are not only entirely compatible with a biblical worldview, but they are crucial tools for defending our faith (i.e. apologetics, which combats illogical objections to Christianity - the kind I used to fall for).

The Problem with Evangelicals
is that they have not yet connected the dots
between Science and God, they have not yet
learned that there are myths that are "truth"
but not literal truth, they don't seem to realize that many stories in the Bible are told in more than one chapter and they often are not in agreement.

Then there are some absurd things that honest
to good Christians just don't and can't accept.
The Bible is accurate in all things. Read
above paragraph and then tell me what you
mean by "accurate."

Then there is their penchant for being completely obnoxious. Just within the past 2
and 1/2 weeks I have been told that I am going
to hell (as one person put it) or I am not
a Christian (as two people put it) because I
am voting for Obama.

Do they realize how utterly absurd they are.
I may be going to hell, but it is not because
I am voting for a drastic change in our
American life. Should I tell them that because
they call the disadvantaged lazy and stupid,
because they are a shrill one issue voter,
because they vote for an economic system that
begs for people to get screwed, that they are
going to hell.

I think that present day Evangelicals are the
worst thing going for Christianity today.
None of us are perfect, but we admit it; and
they admit that we are not perfect either.
Well at least we can agree on something.

VERY INSPIRING ARTICLE-THANKS
YOUR ARTICLE CONVEYS MANY WORDS THAT GAVE ME A SENSE OF PEACE DURING THIS DIFFICULT TIME. I BELIEVE THAT GOD IS IN CHARGE OF THE FINAL CALL OF WHO WILL BE PRESIDENT. I AM VERY CONSERVATIVE SO I AM OPPOSED TO ALL THAT THE LIBERALS STAND FOR...HOWEVER, I WILL PRAY ( AND ATTEMPT TO FAST) FOR I BELIEVE THAT GOD WILL PLACE THE PERSON IN OFFICE, WHETHER WE THINK IT IS THE RIGHT DECISION OR NOT, FOR THERE IS A PURPOSE IN GOD'S POWER. SOMETIMES WE JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND....I WILL PRAY FOR ALL YOU MENTIONED. SORRY THAT YOU RECEIVED SOME UGLY COMMENTS...I APPPRECIATED ALL THAT YOU EXPLAINED FROM THE FIRST TO THE END OF YOUR COLUMN. MAY GOD BLESS YOU FOR THIS.

Well said...
Well thought out... to the core of the matter... sad but true. “Human love has little regard for the truth. It makes the truth relative, since nothing, not even the truth, must come between it and the beloved person.” “It is the characteristic excellence of the strong man that he can bring momentous issues to the fore and make a decision about them. The weak are always forced to decide between alternatives they have not chosen themselves.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer quotes...my question for our able writer - with the silence of truth rule the day or by our speaking bring our silencing? Are we ready as Christians? "Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility. One act of obedience is better than one hundred sermons. To endure the cross is not tragedy; it is the suffering which is the fruit of an exclusive allegiance to Jesus Christ." The meat hook might be waiting for us are we ready? Hard to think of isn't it? Stephen

A Vet Looks at Barack Obama
I'm a Vietnam veteran who after watching the DVD 'Obsession' about Islamic terrorism and reading Brigitte Gabriel's book 'Because They Hate' decided to find out what I could about Barack Obama. It has me truly concerned for this nation that I love. You can see the reason for my concern on my blog.


For me the most important link I found was an article on understanding Barack Obama at http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html

The true problem
is that morals WITHOUT God is worthless.The Bible is the absolute truth. Without it, we end up where we are today. Claiming to have morals based on whims and humanism. We changed
from Biblical values to Family values, which today can mean anything from the right to an
abortion ,healthcare and childcare and stem cell research.
Mr. HarrisI will keep this article. In it you have written the perfect solution to what ails this country. And it doesn't cost a thing. I'm glad we share the same worldview. I only differ with you in that I believe we have been on this course for a long time and there is no turning back. Look at how many people don't care about Obama's worldview,they embrace it. Just read the idiots who post on TH.

William
Stop trolling every blog with the same post. It's tiresome. Thank you.

Steven
You say "they don't seem to realize that many stories in the Bible are told in more than one chapter and they often are not in agreement."

A. Kindly point out a few of these passages for us. Be specific and show how they disagree.

B. What is there about comparison and contrast in literature that you don't understand?

So What
So What

I believe all eight points
everything else is why we have different denominations.

Christianity is based on the freedom to choose to belief these truths or not. I, for one, believe. Has nothing to do with politics, other than, I believe Christ was conceived by God in the womb a virgin, at the moment of conception, an immaculate birth without sin. Therefore, all life begins at that moment of conception without sin.

AFter birth, we make the choice to sin, Starting this Salvation problem that everyone frets about.

Ranger29
Ranger interesting insight.
Can you give me a couple of morals as you see them?

The Problem
"The most frequent objection of those who fear the presence of believers in government is, “What right do you have to impose your morals on us?” Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council tells them, “The same right you have to impose your lack of morals on us.” "

The problem is that both of these positions ignore the role of the Constitution of the U.S. You have NO right to impose your morals OR lack of morals on me. None. Period.

Social Conservatives think the limits placed on their agenda by the U.S. Constitution should simply be ignored.

They are most definitely NOT conservative. They are Republicans because the Republican party rejects abortion and gay marriage. That is all. But, in their hearts, they are absolute unabashed liberals. The very definition of a liberal is one that believes the government should enforce morality.

I am a Christian, and I am conservative. As a Constitutionalist, I fully understand that when it comes to politics, these two are not the same.

Anyone that views the U.S. Constitution as a mere technicality where it is inconvenient is an enemy to me.

SoCons don't want strict constructionists on the supreme court, they want activist judges that will favor their religious agenda. Constitution be damned.

Lindy J
You are correct. Obama may just be the person that God will place as president. As hard it is for most of us to take --that God would ALLOW an irresponsible, know-nothing, communist wannabe to be POTUS, God has a plan --even if it is to make us see how far we have strayed from the truth. Obama will bring us down. Maybe thats where we need to be for a while. When we're riding high, we show no need for God. Hold on, it will be rough if you don't have God to hang on to or if you think that Obama is the messiah.

Values without God
Values cannot exist without God. Without an absolute objective standard everything is relative. To hold that values exist without God is to hold to a relativistic view of morality, which of course is no morality because morality is constantly in flux. Nice try.

Vindex
Where do you think our laws regarding murder come from? ANSWER: The constitution--and how did the founding fathers come up with that concept--Life, liberty, etc.? ANSWER The Bible.
We can't get around it--the Bible has influenced much of what we consider important to us--it's what makes our country great.
if we get rid of all Biblical influences in our government(murder, theft), we are left with very little--communism, anarchy

Pray for a revival
I have been praying for a revival in this country. We need to pray, as Christians, that we prioritize the issues the way God would have us.

Lestat and Vindex
Lestate - It is so true. Our greatest educational institutions were started by Christian theologians who wanted to study what God created through a Biblical sense. I enjoy your comments. Always spot on and full of wisdom.

Vindex - you have missed the point dear. As a follower of Christ, I am very concerned over someone's salvation. With that comes a concern for God's moral system. This is in no way takes away my great love for our Constitution. If the Democrat leaders of this country - starting with FDR and forward, had followed the Constitution to the letter, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. Less government is what the Constitution is about. If you don't think Dems don't miss with morality issues, then you don't know much about the welfare system. I encourage you to visit rural Mississippi and see exactly how a lack of morals and the welfare state are inherently linked together.

Evangelical dupes
The real problem here is not with morals but with Christian discernment. Evangelicals made their big mistake when they decided to blindly support Geo.W.Bush just because he said he was a Christian and was against abortion---when there is no evidence at all that he was either. By doing this they made it evident that they are willing dupes who will support anyone who "says" he is pro life. They are obviously unable to see past the abortion sign on the end of their nose.

For 8 years Geo. Bush has dedicated himself to supporting his father's coo-coo ideas of a New World Order. His main goal is to institute free trade world-wide and to merge the USA with Canada and Mexico in a North American Union. A global economy must come first to then introduce a global government.

Christians should oppose a world government because they know who will eventually control it--our friend old Mr. 666. But they don't do this. They can't even see it coming because the abortion sign on the end of their noses is too big for them to see past it. As a result they are really worthless as far as todey's problems are concerned. In fact they are dangerous!

Obama and Organized Crime


Who is Alexi Giannoulias, the friend and 'Banking Buddy' of Barack Obama?

Alexi Giannoulias is the Illinois State Treasurer, whose family's business, Chicago-based Broadway Bank, has ties to organized crime. In 2006, Obama give Giannoulias an early and avid endorsement that helped him become Illinois State Treasurer at the age of 30.

Alexi Giannoulias was a supporter of Obama in 2004. Barack Obama repaid the support to his campaign by having his Senate campaign use the Broadway Bank.

Tony Rezko, long time friend of Barack Obama and convicted felon, had ties to the Broadway Bank, having written nine bad checks totalling $450,000 to Las Vegas casinos for gambling debts on his account there.

---------------------------------------
"Alexi Giannoulias, who became Illinois state treasurer last year (2006) after Obama vouched for him, has pledged to raise $100,000 for the senator's Oval Office bid.

Before he promised to raise funds for Obama, Giannoulias bankrolled Michael "Jaws" Giorango, a Chicagoan twice convicted of bookmaking and promoting prostitution.

Giannoulias is so tainted by reputed mob links that several top Illinois Dems, including the state's speaker of the House and party chairman, refused to endorse him even after he won the Democratic nomination with Obama's help."

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09052007/news/nationalnews/obam as_mob_tie_idekick.htm
---------------------------------------

Just another Barack Obama 'alliance and associate'.

Read about 11 other 'Radicals and Communists' allied with Barack Obama.

http://hisfacts.blogtownhall.com/2008/10/21/obamas_radical_ and_communist_alliances.thtml


A problem
While I generally agree with most of what he is saying, there is a problem. If "Salvation is a gift from God [and] it cannot be earned through good works or behavior," why do "Christians have an obligation to share the gospel with the "unsaved"? If they are unsaved, they don't have God's gift of salvation, by definition. If they receive the Gospel, then they are saved by their own efforts. If salvation cannot be earned, why have a Gospel at all?

To Pastor Jackson and the thread.
I came close (but did not) to taking an oath never to read Mr. Jackson again after he caved to his Black Racist "volunteers and staff" at his Convention event some weeks ago.
I demand more of my leaders than a craven capitulation to old Racist Black Attitudes. My anger at the bigotry Mr. Jackson enabled has not abated in the slightest, but I acknowledge this article to be a good one and suggest readers compare it to the Paul Edwards article of Thur. Oct. 23 "The New Confessing Church".

ATT Carolyn. 8:45

It has been brought to my attention by a TH comment poster, that the Founders of American Revolution v1 were influenced by Theological Writers from the English Reformation addressing the interface of the Kingdom of God and the Proper Role of Government. I further point out that Am.Rev. v1.0 followed the Great Awakening–Revival.
I suggest, though, Carolyn, that Christians ought to be considering and praying about the possibility, even as Christians had to consider and pray in 1774, if THIS time REVOLUTION is a prerequisite to REVIVAL?

The Big Mick

Reply to Ranger29
If God is not on the throne of one's life then either Hitler or Heffner is. In other words, a person's morals will be guided by the pursuit of power or the pursuit of pleasure. What kind of world would we have if there were no God-fearing, Christ-centered people in it? We would have one vast killing field, and neither you or your loved ones would be safe. Think about it.

Imposed Morals
Vindex,
If we cannot impose 'our' morals on others why then are the following illegal:
murder, rape, theft, fraud, bribery, and perjury.

Now as to impositions I would rather not impose my faith on you.

Given Once for All
I am almost finished with Chuck Colson's Faith which is a long version of Mr. Jackson's article. Much of the problem is that Christianity withdrew from the marketplace of ideas around the turn of the century. We have concentrated on the emotions of faith rather than the rationale of faith and thus are noncompetitive when arguing our case.

Obama and ACORN Stealing Votes

There is an old Spanish saying.
“Tell me who you walk with, and I will tell you WHO YOU ARE!”

"I chose my friends carefully." Barack Obama, Dreams of My Father

Did Barack Obama chose the organizations he associated with as carefully?

The Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) is a grassroots political organization.

ACORN invited Obama to help train its staff. Moreover, Obama eventually would sit on the Board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, which gave a number of sizable grants to ACORN.

In April 2007 The Nation reported, “Today Obama continues his organizing work largely through classes for future leaders identified by ACORN and the Centers for New Horizons on the south side [of Chicago].”

1) ACORN is the largest radical group in America, with 175,000 dues-paying member families, and more than 850 chapters in 70 US cities.

2) ACORN is implicated in numerous reports of fraudulent voter registration, vote-rigging, voter intimidation, and vote-for-pay scams during the 2004 election.

In September 2008 the Board of Elections in Cuyahoga County, Ohio accused ACORN's paid workers, who had been tasked with registering as many pro-Democrat voters as possible, of submitting fraudulent voter-registration cards.

According to the Board, ACORN workers had commonly turned in separate cards with duplicate names but different addresses or different birth dates. Other cards listed people living at an address that was not a residence.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Attorney's office in Michigan indicated that it might prosecute ACORN for similar voter-registration scams in that state.

Obama and ACORN partnering in 'Voter Fraud' 'Change' and 'Hope' for America?

,Hmmm They seek him here
They seek him at Ann's
Across the wides of TH land.
Is he on a thread, or sitting on a cob,
that damned elusive Ranger ROB!?

So Ranger 29 aka Robert aka PerBert showed up here and his comments disappear huh?

Ya'll do know that PerB has been masquerading as a Mack the Knife (whom in his own B&D endearing way PerB calls “The Master and Commander”) supporter for the past year don’t you? Claims to be some kind of Moronic Mythical Middle “Moderate” seeking to purify “his” Repube party from all us nasty “religious right wingers ”(by which he means plain Christians who won’t buy into homomarriage, kiddyporn, and pot.). I direct your attention to my debunking of his whole “right wing” premise myth on my The Big Mick blog on TH.
His real commieqr side slipped out last night on the McCullough thread. There he expressed disdain for the Fact that Obammie IS a commie AND a Black Racist, said only “right wingers” were interested and “YOU people are going to lose badly.” I pointed out that parsing implied he was NOT a McCaniac but rather a BammmieCommie symp and asked him if he had been lying to us all this time, but he’d zipped up and fled out the back door before answering me.
So now he is over here persecuting Christians again, huh?

For a Moronic Mythical Middle “Moderate” of supposed open mind, PerB’s is remarkably one tracked.

Still waiting on an answer, PerB! Were you lying to us about supporting, McShamnesty?

What is your REAL beef with Christians?

C’mon PerB, turn your head and cough it up.

The Big Mick

ulsterscott 9:23
For a supporting perspective resisting disengagement try "Separartion of Church and State" by Dr. Stephen Strehele, Huntington House 2001. For an alternative MODEL try "Resident Aliens" by Stanley Hauerwas and Will Willimon from Duke.

Like I say, I'm looking to Preach Up Am.Rev.v 3.0 and am looking for the 21st century Adams Boys and Patrick Henry to preach to.

the big mick

interesting column
This is a rather selective take on the split in the protestant church. After all, at the time he is talking about one of the "objective truths" that the church was upholding was the morality of slavery. That was the issue that the baptists split over.

It is, after all, possible to believe there are objective truths while recognizing that another group which believes in objective truths are wrong. And in the case of the church's support for slavery, I think it is safe to say they are horribly wrong.

I doubt the founding fathers would do all that well by the evangelical test that Jackson gives. Of course that may just mean that our country wasn't really founded on christian principles after all. Probably true.

Dr. North #19
YOu think we should vote against McCain to keep from having a New World Order when Obama will have us in a New World Order quicker than any of the other candidates. Secondly, as the old saying goes, what would Jesus do? what do you think he would say was the biggest priority? voting against someone whom we think will bring the New World Order are voting for someone who wants to protect the unborn child. I say we should vote to protect the unborn baby and God will then in return save us from a New World Order if it be his will. Get your priorities straight.

Dr. Jackson
I'm with you we need to bind together and fast and prayer concerning this election. If it's God's will to save us from Obama he will but our chances are better if we are seeking his face in prayer and fasting. Then he will answer according to his will but I personally will feel a lot better having sought his face in prayer and fasting. (regardless of the outcome)

Does God really live?
I thoroughly enjoyed the insightful perspective of Mr. Jackson. He points out that an overwhelming majority of "Christians" do not accept absolute truth. But why? If God really is an "omniscient and onmipotent" God, if He does "authoritatively communicate to man through His Word and the Holy Spirit", and if He continues to "rule" the universe in our day, then why is He mute?
I would propose that the reason there is such a division between churches that adhere to such Biblical Worldviews, is precisely because they have abandoned the source of Biblical authority and truth - personal revelation. Righteous men have been chosen by God in past millennia to direct the affairs of his earthly kingdom, and to clarify His absolute truth found in the scriptures - why not now? If He really does live, and is omnipotent and omniscient, then let us listen to His witness of the Holy Spirit, and make revelation our sole source of inerrant truth.

Obama's Faith

BY CATHLEEN FALSANI Sun-Times Columnist, 2004
all quotes are from Barack Obama

"I'm rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people.

That there are values that transcend race or culture, that move us forward, and there's an obligation for all of us individually as well as collectively to take responsibility to make those values lived."

"So, I have a deep faith," Obama continues. "I'm rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people."

------------------------------------------------
Cathleen Falsani comments:
It's perhaps an unlikely theological position for someone who places his faith squarely at the feet of Jesus to take, saying essentially that all people of faith -- Christians, Jews, Muslims, animists, everyone -- know the same God.
---------------------------------------------------------

"It wasn't an epiphany," he says of that public profession of faith. "It was much more of a gradual process for me. I know there are some people who fall out. Which is wonderful. God bless them.... I think it was just a moment to certify or publicly affirm a growing faith in me."

"It's not formal, me getting on my knees," he says. "I think I have an ongoing conversation with God.... I'm constantly asking myself questions about what I'm doing, why I am doing it."

"The difficult thing about any religion, including Christianity, is that at some level there is a call to evangelize and proselytize. There's the belief, certainly in some quarters, that if people haven't embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior, they're going to hell."



GOD
MR.JACKSON,THIS IS A GREAT ARTICLE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE FAIL TO REALIZE GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL.WHEN I READ MY BIBLE IN WHICH I DO EVERYDAY,I FEEL THAT IT WAS JUST WRITTEN THE DAY BEFORE.IF ANYONE READS THE BIBLE AND REALLY FEELS WHAT IT IS TELLING THEM UNDERSTANDS WHAT I AM SAYING.
GOD BLESS US ALL AND PRAY FOR THE LOST.

My Beliefs

I believe 'I am' the smallest minority in America - the individual citizen.

I believe I am responsible for my self-determination, decisions, actions, deeds and I accept full responsibility for everything I do or fail to do.

I bellieve it is my resposibility to be productive and pro-active about enhancing my skills, knowledge and whatever else it takes to provide for myself and my family.

I believe that my identity is based on my individual actions and decisions and not on my race, gender, religion or sexual preference.

I believe in the Constitutional Republic of law, as our founders did and NOT in a Democracy Of 'mob rule' by whichever 'Collectivist Group' happens to be in power at a given time.

I believe in a government that is limited and whose power should be constrained on the individual citizen.

I do NOT seek a life apart from others, but rather a compassionate approach of helping other individuals with my time, energy and funds. I do NOT want to be coerced by a mediator of some 'collectivist' group to force my compassion.

Since my conversion from Humanist/Atheist, I have weekly and faithfully, allocated a portion of my time, energy and funds to help others (36 years and counting).

I accept the statement by Jesus Christ, that the 'Poor will always be among us' and that I might be or might become one of those poor.

I believe in an individual relationship with God - NOT a collective one or a 'Collective Salvation as Described by Barack Obama'.

I am NOT part of nor do I belong to any 'Organized Religion' - I believe Religion is man's way to God and Jesus Christ is God's way to man.

I will stand before God (with Jesus Christ as my advocate as described in the Book of Hebrews) and account for myself based on my life, my decisions and my actions and NOT on what others did or did NOT do.

Amen!
AMEN!

A question from a "moral relativist"
How is it that lack of morals are imposed on anyone? I don't like the legislation of morality because I believe all we each have the right to pursue happiness in whatever way we deem best. Because some people are so twisted in their thinking that they believe they need to harm others there should be laws protecting the public from such people, but why do we need to protect ourselves from gays and drugs and such? I definitely do not think that they are "following God's will" but I also don't see how two men or two women entering into a romantic relationship or some loser smoking dope in his own home harms me. I don't understand how allowing people to do "wrong" without hurting others should be against the law. If you have a sound and reasonable argument for me please reply. Thanks.

BicMick
Thanks for the additions to my already too long reading list. Resident Aliens is sounds more like the balance POV that might be useful.

Sedonaman
You asked why do Christians have an obligation to share the gospel with the unsaved? because God commands us to do so in his word. Because Christ died to save the lost. If therefore someone is not saved then they are lost and Christ came to save the lost. The scriptures in the Bible fit together like a puzzle. You cannot take one scripture and base everything on that one scripture. I think you are missing the point of the scripture when you said "If they receive, the gospel, then they are saved by their own efforts. The Bible also says you must be doers of the word and not just hearers only deceiving your ownselves. So you have to take all of the scripture into account and not just base everything on one scripture. I personally think what he was trying to say when he said that you cannot be saved by your works is that yes, we have to be doers of his word and obedient to his word but we cannot do enough to obtain eternal salvation through our own works but through faith in him that he is our salvation. It is he who has saved us and not we ourselves.

Truth and the Bible
The one consistent trend I find in the Bible is that for Thousands of years, God used past scripture and annointed prophets to keep His church in the proper path. Since scriptures can be interpreted in so many ways, I think the only way you can be sure you are following God's will is if you are following an annointed prophet or apostle. This is the pattern God uses. (See Genesis through Revelations)

2 questions
1- If a person in the 1930s knew what Adolph Hitler was going to bring about, and still supported him and helped him gain power, would that person be judged in the afterlife as being partially responsible for the Holocaust?

2- If a person knows that we have murdered more than 50 million people since Roe v. Wade, and knows that Obama wants to make it easier to have an abortion (which the law of supply and demand says will increase the number of abortions), will that person be held partially responsible for the deaths which would not have occurred if Obama had not been elected?

Fiscal are you a Libertarian?
Libertarians cannot help themselves - they must cite their 'Mantra' "...All I want is to be left alone to do what I wish, provided that others are not harmed if I do..."

Most anything is permissable by Libertarians because if someone doesn’t like it, they can choose not to participate in it.

But what we can’t do is choose not to live in a culture that has been vulgarized by Libertarians.

Like most intellectual sophistry, everything is theoritical to a Libertarian.

The concept that all that is good is only that which is freely chosen simply means that there is NO inherent good or evil - I strongly disagree with that.

Who then will decide whether or not someone is harmed by their choices?

What then will the penalty be, if someone is harmed by their choices?

For a Libertarian society to function successfully, it would require a nation of ideologues. This is an accusation often made of Socialism and Communism, but it is no less accurate here.

Free spirits, the ambitious, ex-socialists, drug users, and sexual eccentrics are usually the Libertarians.

Libertarians believe they can arm themselves with an ideologue and rhetoric and the 'Impurity' of their ideal society and force the rest of us to live in it.

I decline to allow libertarians the sophistical trick of using a vulgar libertarianism to agitate for what they want by defending a refined version of their doctrine when challenged philosophically. I’ve seen Marxists pull that before.

Geek:
I suppose one could call me a Libertarian, though I do not belong to the party and rarely vote for Libertarians. When I look at society it seems to me that laws do very little to regulate individual behavior. While we certainly need legal protections against violent crime, theft, vandalism, etc., I do not see the point in making those who wish to only harm themselves (ie addicts and homosexuals) into criminals. Let them do as they will and if they do not learn from the natural consequences of their actions, perhaps others will. As far as I can see (which I admit may not be as far as the truth reaches) the main consequences for having fewer "blue" laws would be having fewer criminals in our justice system and greater civil liberty. You are right that for a truly Libertarian society to flourish we would all need to be perfect, or at least nearly so. That is not my question. My question is how does a lack of moral legislation force one to live immorally? Surely the laws we have in place do not free us from living in a less moral society. Why not then have a society with fewer "criminals"?

Matthew
Interesting questions. Suppose someone knew that declines in poverty rates reduced the number of abortions more than ease in getting abortions increased them, and also knew that under policies like Obama's poverty rates tend to decrease while under those like McCain's they tend to increase. Would someone who voted for McCain be held partially responsible for the increase in abortions?

Fiscal et al

My observations are that Individualists take responsibility for their decisions, actions and choices.

A large segment of society believes that the environment in which they were raised accounts for their BAD decisions, actions and choices.

A large segment of society believes that the color of their skin mitigates their BAD decisions, actions and choices.

Many people, 'including you' believe everyone operates under the same guiding principles - that could NOT be any more wrong.

A persons identity is NOT established by the 'collective' group they attach themselves to, whether it be sexual preference, race, political persuasion etc.

Each American Citizen should have the same rights and protections under the US Constitution and Bill of Rights - no more - no less.

A Constitutional Republic governed by law, is essential to have any freedom, rights and protections for every citizen.


Why force your beliefs on others?
Interesting article, but it fails to explain why evangelicals believe they should force their ideas on others. This is important now, as these folks have been actively forcing others our of the GOP, to the point where the GOP is practically a third-party with little hope of retaking the House or Senate in the foreseeable future.

Since you all love big government so much, I'm sure you'll be happy next year. Obama, Pelosi, and the Democrats will give you all the big government you want.

"Vindex,
If we cannot impose 'our' morals on others why then are the following illegal:
murder, rape, theft, fraud, bribery, and perjury."

Because these actions infringe on the rights of others. Don't confuse limited government with anarchy. They're not the same. While your at it, don't confuse God with government. They aren't the same, either.

Thanks for the nudge
It's probably not a coincidence that your article hit on the same theme that I read last night in Matthew -- after a long period of not reading the Bible on a regular basis:

"'To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:'

'We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not mourn.'" [Matt 11:16-17 (NIV)]

In other words, we want Jesus to be who we want rather than what he is. Instead of a personal God, we want a personalized God to mesh with our secular beliefs.

However, "'He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.'" [Matt 12:30 (NIV)]

Good article...
I will be happy to join in fasting and prayer this week for our elections.

I was profoundly touched by the open letter posted last week by Edward Cardinal Egan, Archbisop of New York, with regard to abortion. It is posted at http://www.cny.org/archive/eg/eg102308.htm for anyone interested in reading it. Abortion is my "hot button" issue, as it is for many Christians. It's enough for me.

I do, however, understand there are many other issues of concern to Americans. I think it is true that we are being ruled by others' lack of morals and I am not comfortable with that leadership. That is why I am voting this year on the basis of social conservativism and will campaign through the last day on behalf of those candidates.

Explanation to Sedonaman
You said the following:
"A problem
While I generally agree with most of what he is saying, there is a problem. If "Salvation is a gift from God [and] it cannot be earned through good works or behavior," why do "Christians have an obligation to share the gospel with the "unsaved"? If they are unsaved, they don't have God's gift of salvation, by definition. If they receive the Gospel, then they are saved by their own efforts. If salvation cannot be earned, why have a Gospel at all?"

My response:How can ACCEPTING a gift be considered works? People are unsaved because they don't accept the price that Christ paid for their sins, for eternal life. In more simple terms --if I bring you a gift for your birthday, you can either accept or decline (or even deny the existence of ) the gift.
Why have a Gospel, you asked. Well we cannot pay the price of our own sins(unless we want to go to Hell for them). jESUS WAS SINLESS AND Paid that price--he died for the world's sins, so the gift of Eternal life is now offered--will you accept this pardon from God. Thats the best way I have of explaining it---IT is a pardon from God, if we accept it
or some don't accept it or some deny it's even real?
Have you never heard this before? You sound like you only understand works.
PURE AND SIMPLE--THE Gospel is a pardon offered.

TheEngineer
I agree with your post. My question was exactly the same, though perhaps stated less clearly. Retired Geek responded to me but he did not address my question at all. Anyone here have a lucid response? I truly would like to hear a good argument for this.

Retired Geek (Reply #35)
I agree with you completely in your comments. Individual responsibility is the enemy of the left. They want all the rights, but none of the responsibility. It is like teenagers that want to stay up all night, but then dont want to have to get up to go to school because they are "tired". They want nice clean clothes, but have someone else wash and iron them. They want a car and be able to drive, but don't want to have to follow all the rules of the road. They want to get high, but not have any side effects.
Sorry, the world doesn't work that way. Leftists are like spoiled, immature brats who never grew up to take responsibility for themselves.

fiscal
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins which included homosexuality and sodomy etc. If we turn into Sodom and Gomorrah God is going to destroy us. Also, God says in his word if my people who are called by my name will turn from their wicked ways and seek my face "I will heal their land".

In reply to Steven in Illinois
If you take the stance that the Bible is not the inerrant Word of God, then at best you are mistaken. There are no inconsistencies in the Bible as you suggest. As your favorite politician would say "folks are reading their Bible". I would say folks aren't "understanding" their Bible. Read 1 Corr 1:18-31.

A vote for Obama as a Christian is at least a blatant act of putting this world ahead of Godly values and it's that very type of "Christian" that this article is talking about.

I'll not question your Christian faith, but I will question your ability to discern. I hope that you'll pray about your choice for president and then as everyone should, vote your conscience.

There's a lot more wrong about Obama than his support of the murder of innocent babies who God said He knew before HE formed us in the womb.

Obama's ideology is a change alright, but it's not new.

Peace, unity and good works
In the name of peace, unity, and good works all kind of things are accomplished in the places of worship today. Faith have been compromised by more than the left, for pet projects, friends
and financial rescues. The Christian right did not say no to faith based initialtives which fund domestic terrorist organizations because of a couple pieces of silver they receive in participating in the initialtive.
The church have always help the poor and the oppressed while trust the word and the will of God. It has been lost but the left is not to blame for their non-belief. God has wrath and hell for the disobedient, along with the believer who refuse to repent.

Truth. You got used by Bush and Neo-Cons
The open truth is that you got used and abused by the Neo-Cons. So you pin your hat on the vapid McCain and Palin ticket. Dumb and Dumber.

The religious right sound not like prophets but Pharasees. As some have said, some of your leaders got nice jobs in the media and things looked good until the debacle of the Bush administration fell on everybody.

The leaders of the religious right are modern day Pharasees, plain and simple.

The racists among you dare not call yourselves Christian since Christ would not judge the person by the color of his skin or origin.


Steven Reply # 3
Just within the past 2 and 1/2 weeks I have been told that I am going to hell (as one person put it) or I am not a Christian (as two people put it) because I am voting for Obama.

I am truly sorry that you equate all Christians the same. We are all different in our walks with the Lord. And we make silly mistakes too.
Christians are no different than non-Christians except for one thing-the power and death of Christ offers forgiveness and life-both here and in heaven-and Christians just take Christ at his word and accept his forgiveness for our own sins and we realize that we cannot have a relationship with God without it.
As for the notion that a Christian shouldn't vote for Obama-I believe that is true. However, it does not send anyone to Hell. Refusal of God's gift does that. However, I do question ones world view who vote for Obama-as much of what he aspires to is the antithesis of the American dream. I do not want my country to go the ways of Europe, or Cuba, or the Soviet Union. We are unique-and I sure would like to see it remain so. A vote for Obama-if he gets his way, along with the very left democratic party, will destroy our uniqueness.

Darlene
I don't think the lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah is that liberty is bad. The lesson is that people should be moral. Morality comes from people, not from government. We should work to ensure that government doesn't get so powerful that it infringes on the right to behave in a moral manner.

Darlene
Good post, thanks for the response. Now, do you believe that government and laws are the way to heal peoples' hearts? I say that it must happen at the grass roots. We need to change our culture to one that favors temperance, self-control, and right action. When people start giving their attention to what is right with society and start feeding those parts of ourselves that make us great, then perhaps we will have a more Godly society. I do not think that telling people that they shouldn't do this or that or affirming that our neighbors are bad and wrong will get us anywhere. Your thoughts? Any ideas on how to really create a better America?

sedonaman
As others already mentioned, you're equating "receiv[ing] the Gospel" with "saved by their own efforts". I would argue further that God has brought that person into my life in order to work His grace in me, through both the believer He sent and the Holy Spirit. Even if you seek out answers, as I once did, it is ultimately God who puts the Gospel in front of you. The Bible also says that God has placed in every heart the desire to know Him, so even our desire to seek out the answers is attributable to God. (Not to mention that God created us in the first place, so we owe EVERYTHING we are and have to Him.)

The Bible is full of examples of God using people to fulfill His plans. That does not mean those people, or the objects of their ministries, were saved by their own efforts. It only means that God often chooses to use people rather than "snap His fingers and make it so." Same with the Great Commission.

If we had no "Gospel at all", then God would have to force salvation on us with a "snap of His fingers." But that would result in meaningless robots, not loving followers. We also have to be careful to distinguish predestination from God's foreknowledge of what we will freely choose to do/believe.

The point is that you cannot earn salvation through good works (some people believe the choice to follow Jesus would be a "work," but I find that illogical). The sincere believer strongly desires to obey God's commands, including the Great Commission. Including living moral lives according to biblical standards. Good works are a result of my saving faith, not a contribution to my salvation.

The Engineer
The point that I was trying to make is that we should vote the bible and for those who will adhere to the Bible.

Amen, Brother!
Thank you so much for clariying the problem with christians today and how young people are confused about what the bible states about different issues especially those that are very controversial such as abortion which is our moral compass.

ulster scott
Hard to say about "Aliens". Main point is that we are back to a Pre-Constantine HOSTILE relationiship with the Surrounding Society. The surrounding Society no longer shares our Moral Values. This, they posit, has thrown us back into a 1st Century Early Church mode where we should expect--and here's the KEY--ACT LIKE a Community with a Radically Different Moral Compass and Values Matrix. Hence the term from the NT "Resident Alien's."

Now here's the "bait and switch". You can see that one of the closer current analogs to the idea would be the AMISH Community or, in a strictly DARK sense, The Branch Davidians or Fundy LDS Polygamy Cults. Admittedly H&W would reject these last two, but the AMISH model they have some respect for. In this the agree with another Colleague at Duke, Westerhoff (who worked for Margret Meade the Sociographer) who looks to the Amish for his models of forming Christians.
HOWEVER, Stanley and Willy take a RADICAL LEFT turn when they start talking SPECIFICALLY about the ETHOS of this Radically Different Christian Morality.

It don't take many paragraphs to figure out they are pulling THEIR Value Matrix more from Marx than Mark and more from 1960's Berkley than A.D. 60 Antioch or 1600's Basil.

Not a word on the UberSin of Homosex, quite a lot about the Bommiecommie style "redistribution" of Wealth.

The Big Mick

My spiritual journey
Before coming to TH a couple of years ago, I regarded myself as a Christian. I attended a mainline Protestant church that you folks just know, without my even having to go further, just wasn't a real, honest-to-God Christian church. We were taught about God's love, believed in tolerance, and niceness and stuff like that. We thought God's love extended to all people and that hatred was wrong.

Now I know, from reading lots of columns like this, and many posts of TH readers, that Christians are people who espouse hatred and intolerance, that they are backed up by a God who votes conservative, and that anything other than the most literal interpretation of the Bible is wrong.

Now I know that I'm not really a Christian, and don't want to be one. I'm not that fond of loathing and despising my fellow human beings. I just don't have that urge to punish that it takes to be one of God's elect. So, I'm confessing that neither my church and I are Christian.

How about that for a conversion experience?

Patrick
Actually, many of us did object to Bush's Faith-Based Initiative. At the time it was proposed, I remember reading about a good number of conservative ministers who said they feared the coercive potential when gov't controls the purse strings for such programs. I agree.

Bush was right to note that gov't is basically discriminating against religious charities when it only gives grants to secular charities. But the real problem is that the federal gov't is taking our money and giving it to ANY charities. That money should remain in our hands to give to the causes we choose. Not only does my preferred system follow the Constitution whereas the current system does not, but private donors are much more discerning about their appropriations. Throw in lack of accountability and coercion that come with gov't transfers and the choice is clear.

Steve 2:42
Naw Steve, you will go to hell for disn Jesus, that's pretty much the whole deal.

Are you much of Christian. I can't know. "Who are you to judge the servant of another, before his own master he stands or falls." "Only let us keep living to that standard to which we have attained."

On the other hand your "disadvantaged" nonsense shows you are a redistributionist like Obammiecommie and a few OTHER scriptures also apply.

"Each one must suffer for his own sins" and "by your fruits you will know them." That and "good wells don't produce brakish water."

Bottom line, Stevieboy, is that REDISTRIBUTION IS THEFT! It ain't yours or the Govs TO REDISTRIBUTE! Ain't for YOU to even COMMENT on who has "advantage." To even ATTEMPT it is to commit the sins of false witness, theft, envy, covetousness. Got 4 of your top 10 in ONE outmoded, bigoted, and disingenous EVIL doctrine. And YOU PUSHIN IT!

cont. The Big Mick

Gestell #64
I hear your argument regarding Christians being intolerant and hateful. Can you be specific with your charges? How is a Christian who adheres to God's word hateful or intolerant? I really would appreciate you specifics rather than your generalities.

stevieboy back at 2:42 AM part 2
I'm going to hazard another guess about your REAL problem with REAL Christianity though, Stevie because of this quote from Tristram Shandy: "When a man talks loudly against religion, always assume it is his appetites and not his intellect that has got the better of his creed."

Grand Theft Redistributionism, and the Bigoted Class Envy and Hatred of the more successful that spawns it, isn't YOUR REAL bag though, Stevie, is it? If I'm any judge of text and author.

Naw, when you go all postal on "one issue" and "myths" and "science" and you AIN'T a biological female--you piszd about ONE THING.
Homosex.
Could it be you just mad cause real Christians won't warrant your LUST, Stevie? That the Bible has the gall to tell you what body part you can stick in whose bodily oriface?

Though grits ol sod. Just the way it is.

I take the Scriptures "at face value." That's the way they are INTENDED to be taken, it is the way JESUS VALIDATES them. It is the way the Holy Spirit has affirmed them through the Church over time.

Jackson is right about the split and GUESS WHAT ISSUE is at the HEART of the Biblical Interpretive War TODAY, Stevie?

Homosex.

Care to fess up which side YOU are on?

By the WAY Stevie, when you choose the act you choose the consequences. Your bigoted Class Envy Redistributionism is the MECHANISM by which a PERMANENT Slave class HAS BEEN and IS BEING PRODUCED.

You an ENABLER of the POVERTY INDUSTRY, Stevie.
So much for being a good Christian economist, eh?

By the way too, Jesus says give half YOUR stuff, NOT somebody else's. Giving somebody ELSE's stuff has NO CHRISTIAN Virtue or Value AT ALL! Don't know how much of a Christian you is, Stevie, but I CAN say you ain't much of a Theologian--your hermeneutic is pisz poor.
So's your economic theory.

The Big Mick


Darlene
"The point that I was trying to make is that we should vote the bible and for those who will adhere to the Bible."

I guess the challenge is understanding exactly what that means. For example, Focus on the Family has gone way out of their way to push for a federal ban on online poker, as they think poker is not Christian. They even worked hard to get planks in the last three GOP platforms advocating such a position. Well, to me, that's not "adhering to the Bible". Adhering to the Bible is choosing for oneself whether to play online poker or not -- not determining if others can play.

In fact, it appears that the GOP is satisfied with their current level of support. Freedom lovers worked hard to get the Internet poker prohibition support plank removed from the last platform. The platform committee did just that, stating that they didn't wish to shut out potential voters. Well, the final committee restored it, and groups like Focus on the Family actually taunted us over it.

Too bad FoF got more concerned about chasing man's goals (eliminating poker because they don't like it - when there's no prohibition on poker anywhere in the Bible) than God's. After Election Day, they'll get neither. Not to worry -- I'm sure Obama and Pelosi will be glad to listen to Dobson. Or, maybe not.

Just Tell Gestell 2:29and Kathy2:39
Don't bother K girl. "A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his? her? opinion."

JesTell is spouting UHF4-CH4
"When it ain't go the balls to be bull and it ain't got the substance to be sheite!"

Beau Gest is simply piszd cause real Christians, following the Scriptures won't allow homosex.

All there is to it. It ain't an argument you can win, or in which Beau Gest will allow you to do any good.

Determination to hang on to sexual sin is spite of all else is LIKE that. You can see it in the Joshua, Judges, and Kingdom Material and the Prophets.

The Big Mick

Just an update from the Scripture Wars
front.

One of the few Christian communities where homosex is still being actively fought is the some segments of the Black Church, particularly 3rd World Black Churches.

I don't see Jackson having the courage to confront it here, but in addition to the inherent Racism and Anti-Christian Maxism of the Black Obama Voter, there is the enabling of the homomarriage agenda.

For the Black Church community to vote Bammiecommieqr is a sellout of Christian Values
of OLD TESTAMENT proportions.

Jackson doesn't quite have the Prophetic Stones to call it EVERYTHING it is.

The Big Mick

Big Mick
My theory as to why we are in the fix we are in is because the American Church has two masters and the IRS is the ruling master. Jesus is on the side lines. I've seen so called pastors escorting babiesn into our local clinic to be executed, and have called pastors who claim to be prolife begging for support for babies. O they will preach to the choir and maybe say a few things publicly but very carefully lest the
IRS get them. In the American Revolution the rallying cry was "No King but Jesus", but these days..we have to be careful lest we offend or the IRS gets us. Thus we have biblically illiterate congregations, and a people so lacking in the true American history they are passively accepting all the garbage activist judges, and marxist politicians and groups spew.

Fiscal
No, I do not believe that Gov't is the way to heal people's hearts. Perhaps you are right that telling our neighbors etc. that they are bad or wrong will not get us anywhere. Like you said it will have to come from a change of heart and I believe only God can do that. However, our nation was founded on Christian principles and we should hold to those principles. You ask how can we become a Godly society again? Well first I think it's fair to ask the question "How did we become a Godless society"? Well one thing we have done is taken God out of school. We have taken the Ten Commandments out of the public square. Just to mention a few things. Then look at what is on tv. (sex & violence) and God is taboo. No wonder so many people are in different to God. Now we have allowed public schools and Hollywood to diminish God and they (our children) have no Godly examples to follow anymore. It's no wonder we live in a Godless society. We've allowed gov't, Hollywood and the liberal media to destroy this nation by remove the fabric of God from our society. How can we have a Godly society? that's a good question? The only thing that I can think of is it is going to have to take an awakening, perhaps something that will get people's attention and wake them up to the obvious. Perhaps and endtime revival across the nation?

Engineer and the Pseudolibertinearians
on the thread.

If you "freedom lovers" keep clinging to your "Kiddyporn and Pot (and, oh yeah, the right to lose the rent money in poker) At ALL Costs" agenda you will forever remain an impotent marginalized political minority.

BACK BURNER your Perversion Agenda, however, recast your cant into bridge building language.
Talk about the Value of Limited Government etc and FORM ALLIANCES with your NATURAL REAGANITE "Government IS the PROBLEM" Allies and you will GET Power and MUCH of what you want and can NEGOTIATE, WHEEDLE AND FINESE the REST LATER!

But YOU WON'T will ya? Why? You'd rather HATE Christians who label your behavior as WRONG rather than work WITH them to create a Government where you HAVE the freedom! Just like Jews who would rather vote commiqr and embrace Sandnazis out to KILL them then give up their guilty pleasure of Christian Hating.

Your choice, Eng, but I've never met a Pseudolibertinearian, including L.Neil Smith whom I RESPECT and ADMIRE and LISTEN TO, who had enough Political Savy and MORAL STONES to actually DO it! Surprise me.

the big mick

I'll bet
I'll bet those survey numbers would change drasticallly if you simply removed #8 "The Bible is Accurate In All It's Teachings".

Are you kidding?

Jonah?

Noah?

Completely Accurate?

Hilarious.

tea
got to go, but you may have something.
There's the story of the Preacher who got up in the pulpit, preached a little Treason against George 3 and then ripped off his robe to display his Continental Uniform. Then there's the Pastor who, when the Americans ran short of paper wads for the musket ball rounds at the battle of Saratoga, ran into his church, came back with an armload of hymnals, began to rip them up for wadding and said: "Give em Watts, boys, give em Watts!"

Having despaired of FINDING the 21st Century Adams boys or Ethan Allen or Patrick Henry or Tom Jefferson (even Tom Paine the atheist and anti-Christian) and UNABLE to BE any of them or even BECOME such a thing, I have decided my duty may lie in using what gifts I have TO PREACH THEM INTO EXISTENCE.
American Revolution version 3.0 is long overdue.

I don't see why ANY protestant OR RC would tolerate for an instance the CONCEPT that the State has a right to TAX the Church OR that a PREACHER ANSWERS to ANYBODY BUT GOD the SECOND he stands behind the Pulpit! The PRophet annoints the King, and in some cases the Priest NOT the REVERSE!! The "Board" can Fire the Son AFTER he Preaches, but THE WORD OF GOD IS NOT FETTERED! NOBODY tells me WHAT TO PREACH but GOD, dammit!
That's just the nature of the Badge and the way it is.

mick


bigmick
"If you "freedom lovers" keep clinging to your "Kiddyporn and Pot (and, oh yeah, the right to lose the rent money in poker) At ALL Costs" agenda you will forever remain an impotent marginalized political minority."

I have no idea whom you think wants child porn to be legal, but I do know many want to play poker on the Internet. More specifically, they don't want YOU to tell us we cannot. It's called liberty. Now, perhaps we'll remain politically marginalized, or perhaps not, but we will fight for our rights. For example, the Poker Players Alliance now has over one million members.

The PPA (which is chaired by Republican former Sen. Al D'Amato and of which I'm a board member) has formed alliances with Republicans. Unfortunately, groups like Focus on the Family would rather pass "feel-good" bans on things like poker. The GOP Platform is a good example. I've personally met with many Republicans (and I am a registered Republican who usually votes that way) to share my feelings on the matter.

I think the bottom line now is that YOU could use our support right around now. Seems the big government pseudoconservatism that McCain and Bush support is becoming an impotent political minority as well.

stoner head
are you aware that Jesus himself validates the Noah and Jonah material SPECIFICALLY?

Jesus said something to guys like you, stonesucker.

"You err because you know neither the Scriptures or the Power of God."

Find a different game, lad.

The Big Mick

The main thing that separates Democrats.
and Republicans is abortion. Proverbs 6:17 says,(paraphrasing)God hates those who shed innocent blood.

bigmick
Regarding the GOP platform, the PPA and the nation's poker players worked with the GOP to keep the online poker ban support plank out of the GOP platform this year. And, it was not included in the first draft. Had this draft cleared the full platform committee, the GOP would have been well on its way to having some more votes. In fact, the committee stated that it was not included specifically to bring us into the fold. The story is at http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?docID=news-000002941 027 .

Unfortunately, the full committee added a new ban plank to the platform. Then, adding insult to injury, Focus on the Family taunted us over it, at http://www.citizenlink.org/FOSI/gambling/A000004244.cfm .

So, I hope this election works out well for you, but I did my part and I'll have no regrets when Obama wins next week.

engineer
you miss the point or merely ignoring it.

Any regular on TH can tell you I was ready to vote None of the Above by write in here in VA before Palin.
I would have voted Bammiecommie and "bring on socialism straight and make the electorate choke and hurl" OVER Mack the Knife before Palin.

Geesh, eng, from MY perspective it's YOU guys who helped FOIST Mack the Anti-Conservative ON us.

Your own damn post shows you'd rather pick a fight with ME over such a dumb and addictive thing as gambling (which, by the way I don't give a DAMN about--STATE or Local Constitutional Issue NOT Federal--you got the votes LEGALIZE it, don't give a damn)--you are SO addicted to it that you'd rather pick a fight with ME and SEE Bammiecommie come in to TAX everything you WIN and redistribute it, then SIMPLY keep your MOUTH SHUT about it and con me into SUPPORTING YOU by talking about Limited Goverment! You can GET MY Help for YOUR Agenda by sacrificing NOTHING but your Big Mouth, Eng. But know I REFUSE to BUY YOUR Help by sacrificing MY principles as you demand! Now who is the bigger FOOL?!

The Big Mick

Pro-life Libertarians
"The main thing that separates Democrats.
and Republicans is abortion. Proverbs 6:17 says,(paraphrasing)God hates those who shed innocent blood."

But not Libertarians, who are divided on the issue. Bob Barr and Ron Paul are both strongly pro-life. I'm strongly pro-life, for that matter. LOL at the GOP for losing the votes of pro-life voters.

doc
not anymore.
it's the warranting of homosex.

the big mick

got to go
see ya'll tonight, tomorrow, Wed night Thur am maybe.

the big mick

Mick?
Hey Mick, the error Jesus is referring to in your quote is someones assumption that a childless woman who married seven brothers, all of which who died, would have to marry one of them in heaven. Jesus lets this guy know he's wrong becuase the bible says the rules of the world don't apply in heaven, and that if he had read his scriptures he would know that already.

The stories of Jonah and of Noah didn't take place in heaven. They took place on earth. And are quite demonstratably false.

Though it does fit your ad-homenim attack quite nicely, the quote doesn't really apply.

bigmick
What? You asked me a question and I answered it. It's nothing personal. I'm not sure why you throw words around like "addicted" at someone for daring to ask for his rights. You may be surprised to find that it's not nearly as addictive as its opponents would have you believe. Then again, should you be surprised that FoF would exaggerate this issue?

Online poker is a federal issue, as the federal government is responsible for regulating interstate commerce and interstate trade under the Constitution.

And, I didn't put Mack on you. I voted for Ron Paul, who's pretty much the opposite of McCain.

Finally, we tried to get people to support our position on poker by using the limited government argument. Unfortunately, the GOP no longer believes in limited government. Read the platform. The time to remain passive is long past for us. The GOP will ban it if they can, which is a 100% tax. Say what you want about Obama, but something is more than nothing.

typ0
.....Online poker is a federal issue, as the federal government is responsible for regulating interstate commerce and international trade under the Constitution......

Sen. Stevens (R-AL) found guilty
Well, one more GOP senator goes down. If there's a symbol of the party's current problems, it's Stevens and his bridge to nowhere.

If anyone wants our votes next week, you know where to find us. Cheers.

Engineer...
Stevens is a Republican from Alaska(AK), not Alabama(AL).

oops....typo number 2
meant (R-AK). Thanks.

'Truth' is elusive.
It was once absolute truth that the sun revolved around the earth. This was once immutable Catholic dogma. Newtonian physics has given way to quantum mechanics, which will, in turn, give way eventually to something - string theory? Who knows, but something.

We can't base modern society on rules of behavior set forth 2000 years ago. Biblical 'truth' is anachronistic.

God did not 'create' mankind. Mankind evolved from earlier primates. Proof of this is your toenails. Toenails used to provide gripping power for your ancestor's prehensile feet, just as your fingernails do for your hands. Toenails are now just vestigal remnants of our primate heritage.

If God created mankind, why would he give us vestigal toenails? I know, I know: Ours is not to reason why, ours is just to worship Him and die. You go right ahead. I'll take a pass.

The Engineer
Please excuse my ignorance here but I had never heard of "online poker" until you just mentioned it.

stonesean said...
"The stories of Jonah and of Noah didn't take place in heaven. They took place on earth. And are quite demonstratably false."

What's demonstrably false? That the stories actually happened, or happened as told in the Bible? What?

Have you ever heard of a miracle? Would you say these stories are false because they are against some law of physics or other natural law? Why do you claim falsehood?

What point is there to a God who cannot make things happen which go against natural laws, also known as miracles. If you want to say there's no God, then go ahead. It is your right.

The Engineer

We have some things in common, apparently. I'm an engineer and originally from KY. Another is a distaste for FoF's political activities.

I am a conservative and a Christian who thinks Dr. Dobson should stick to family and child psychology, at which he is adept.

Christians ought to be involved in politics but IMHO, on an individual level. The Bible never instructed us to form political blocs, a la The Christian Coalition, etc. in order to accrue and wield political power. In so doing, we trade our birthright for the scraps that fall from the government's table, just another special interest group. We are the Church, not a PAC, and are called to be salt and light, to love our neighbor and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Jesus himself rejected the world's ideas of power by refusing to be drawn into the Roman controversies on several occasions, as His kingdom is not of this world. Even asking Who Would Jesus Vote For, besides ending a sentence with a preposition, is pointless. This man who, when beaten and mocked and crowned with thorns, towered over a Roman prefect, transcends politics.

Vote your conscience, but don't imagine that God belongs to a political party or is even overly concerned with who wins the election. His plans and purposes will proceed according to His good pleasure, regardless.

The Pastor Speaks Truth.
Thank you Rev. Jackson for speaking once again. Your articles have meant so much to at this criticle time. I too am praying and will fast also. This is a time for fervent prayer. God has promised in 2Chron. 7:14 that if we pray, seek God, and turn from wicked ways,He will hear and heal our land.

Please America, we can't compromise Biblical truth in the name of tolerance or love. PRAY for God's mercy and intervention.

A Believer
I find my self in agreement with all of the article except some minor quibbles with his qualifications for being a Christian. I fully agree with all but numbers 6 (Satan) and 8 (accurately). I do not personally believe in a humanized Satan (such as Christ became Man)--I do believe that Satan exists as a force pushing mankind toward evil, but not as an incarnate individual. Although I do believe that the teaching of the Bible are accurate in the main, I do not believe that it is scientifically precise. I also do not subscribe to the belief that it has been personally shepherded by God through all its phases to insure that no mistakes have been made; I believe it is a work by humans under guidance and inspiration of God, and therefore it is subject to flaws. I have read that there are actually 3 different branches of Biblical scholarship that have resulted in 3 quite different Bibles (all of which have their supporters that they are inerrant--obviously, not all of them can be correct, and perhaps none are). All of them do, however, lay out the basic principles that God requires of his children, and those are the accuracies that I believe in. I do not believe that the Earth is only 4 thousand years old, and I seriously doubt that God created the Universe in 6 of our current days. (I don't doubt that He could have done so, I just don't believe that's how it was done.)

My husband
and I attended a prayer meeting at our church
for this election and our country last night and
what Harry wrote in this column was discussed and none of us were aware of the column. I've had the thought that our troubles are the worldly people, or the apostate church but the
believing church's fault. God didn't command the worldly sinners to repent, he said "If MY
people.. in 2 Chronicles 7:14. That's those of us who believe the inerrant word, and not some watered down touchy/feely I'm okay and you are okay gospel. Too many church's today are nothing but entertainment, they don't want to offend by preaching the Cross and Him Crucified.

I know there are a lot of issues we should be concerned about but I think we are at a CROSS
roads, literally, we either choose life or we choose death on Nov. 4. SARAH represents the choice for life regardless of percieved perfection or imperfection and Obama represents
death regardless of the age of the preborn baby,
yet tells us he's a committed Christian. As one has said, God tells us He knew us before we were formed in our mother's wombs therefor, life
begins at conception. PERIOD! And any "christian" that votes for the death merchant shares in the blood guilt of these murdered babies. Read Proverbs 24:11, 12. He won't let you get away with saying you didn't know because He knows you know and you will answer for it one day. Personally I wouldn't want to be in the hands of an angry God.

Huguenot
"Reply # 92
Date: Oct 27, 2008 - 4:23 PM EST
The Engineer

We have some things in common, apparently. I'm an engineer and originally from KY. Another is a distaste for FoF's political activities.

I am a conservative and a Christian who thinks Dr. Dobson should stick to family and child psychology, at which he is adept."

Well said, sir!

1 - The US can’t be Christian again…

Until Christianity is once again imposed, the way it used to be imposed…

You can pray, preach, have revivals, sell books, win debates, and every other one of your impotent methods, until kingdom come, literally, and your own children will laugh at you, because they are from another tribe…

“A Wisconsin pastor has been charged with felony physical abuse of a child after he spanked his 12-year-old son for lying, and a teacher notified social services. Barry W. Barnett Jr., 43, of Poynette, Wis., is free on a $10,000 bond, but he could face up to three years in prison and fines for disciplining his son, the local Portage Daily Register reported.” - WorldNetDaily Posted: October 25, 20081:00 am Eastern

When you lose your religion (become post-Christian) you are no longer outraged for moral reasons, which used to unify the US. One tribe is outraged you want to teach abstinence. One tribe is outraged you kill and eat animals. One tribe is outraged because you are harming the planet. Obama’s tribe is outraged by all the CEOs earning too much money, because of their Marxist expectations of equality of wealth. You can’t even count all the tribes…

2 - The US can’t be Christian again…

Woodstock’s tribe is outraged by our military, our border patrol, our police, our executions, the guns in our trucks, the guns we use to protect our homes, the strap, the back of our had, every use of force Christians considered legitimate. This outrage comes from their cultural Marxist expectations of equality of power. If you are ‘the man’ you are automatically the oppressor and evil, simply because you are white, rich powerful, male, straight, all of you are the oppressor, and every victim group is the oppressed, not because of anything you specifically did to them, but because of what your group did to their group over the past 500 years…

Woodstock is an attack on US Christianity, not to change its orthodoxy, but to tie our hands so that Christianity can’t be imposed on anybody anymore, including your own wife and kids…

Sorry, love isn’t all you need…

You need to kick peoples a** or everybody in the society loses their religion and become tribal…

Every tribe has their own religion…

This isn’t a theory, its reality…

Every city and town in the US now has more than 100 street gangs…

Darlene–10:47 am, Vizier–1:10 pm, Lestat
Amen

The Engineer–2:59 pm
“Adhering to the Bible is choosing for oneself whether to play online poker or not....”
No, adhering to the Bible is choosing to work for your living, giving value for value received.
The gambler hopes to gain far more value than he gives.
Is poker a form of gambling or not?

Faith...
The bottom line is the Bible...you have to make a choice...life is as definite as Black and White...thou, you will sin...you also will be forgiven, when you ask for it...Accept him and he will give you eternal life...once you have given yourself to him, there is no going back, he will never abandon you nor forsake you...But, he will not compromise, his words for your false beliefs!!!! The choice is yours?

Peter, Grass Valley Ca.

Religion
My siblings and I all grew up Roman Catholic. They are all democrats and their mantra is that all matters are shades of gray and I still believe that there is right and wrong. As you might imagine, we don't talk politics. I know my mom, if she were still here, would be truly offended knowing that my sisters were supporting a party that supports abortion on demand. I doubt very much that God would be part of the Democrat Party no matter HOW MUCH they say they are for the "little" guy.

Younger
"No, adhering to the Bible is choosing to work for your living, giving value for value received. The gambler hopes to gain far more value than he gives. Is poker a form of gambling or not?"

Poker is not gambling. Poker is a game of skill where people match wits, like chess or bridge.

As to your point, it sounds like you're trying to force the Bible to say something it doesn't really say. I read this argument some time ago regarding contributing to society. It’s on the Focus on the Family website and at other places. To me, it sounds like someone decided they thought poker was wrong, then dug through the Bible to “prove” it. Sorry, but if poker were a sin, the Bible would say so. It wouldn’t require some circuitous “proof”. I do respect your right to choose to not participate in poker, of course. My issue is when people try to force their beliefs on this matter on me via legislation.

Also, I actually disagree with your other point. There is a large economy built around poker, including television, publishing, card rooms, manufacturing and sale of cards and chips, and many other products and services.

Losing players gain value in recreation, much as they would in other money-losing activities like watching a movie playing a round of golf.

Earth quake if no hand on Bible
When they Obama takes the oath of office if he says no Bible under his hand I bet you there will be an earth quake.

Letter to Evangelicals
Actually a very good article. I agree with everything.

Tea Party
I'm really not being picky, because I know exactly what you meant. But, there may be someone who will misinterpret what you said.

God does exspect sinners(lost people) to repent. There is no salvation aside from repentance, and faith. I'm sure Mr. Jackson would agree.

God does hold Christians responsible for not being salt and light. Power is withheld from Christians who harbor sin.

"Losing players...

...gain value in recreation, much as they would in other money-losing activities like watching a movie playing a round of golf."

Smoking cigars comes to mind here...

Mom: "Are you still smoking cigars? Why not just light a $20 bill on fire?"

Son: "Get it to taste like a Davidoff, and I will."

The real problem
Jesus was very clear that people would abandon the faith. Paul also said that people would not put up with sound doctrine. The biggest problem with today's church, as I see it, is in it's insistence on being "relevant". Churches try so hard to be "cool", to be up-to-date on everything that they allow way too much of the world's deception into their programs. Part of this is understandable, but when real biblical truth is sacrificed so that churches can be "tolerant" and non-offensive just to get people in the door, that's not good.

Greatfull
I count myself as believing all of the eight points highlighted in the article. I belong to the Church of Christ which places great importance in all of the teachings of the Bible and especially the great commission. This great nation is in serious trouble because of our turning away from God. We as Christians need to get serious to combat the forces of moral relativism and the indoctrination of our children in the woefully substandard schools. The fields are ripe for picking people!

CHRISTIANITY.
When Jesus Christ walked the earth more than 2000 years ago, he found people who had been spiritually downtrodden by the religious leaders of their time(Matthew 23). To them Jesus gave hope again by teaching them the truth according to God's ways, not according to their religious leaders whom he referred to as blind guides who were willing to strain out the gnat and swallow a camel! It's the same today, because of "token" Christians, most people have been turned away from the truth because they think such people represent true Christianity but they don't. Example, to think that you are more righteous because you are pro-life, yet you don't frown on sex outside marriage(fornication), is so pretentious and sincere people see all that and get turned off.

Emma
Emma I am not reighteous because I am pro-life.
I am pro-life because someone has to defend the unborn baby that should be safe in its mother's womb. I have personally held a 5 month (fetus) baby in my arms. To think that we as a nation condone the horrific killings of the innocent. Are they not entitled to life, not only according to the constitution but because God said "thou shalt not kill". If we as a country could just put our defenses down and think about what we do to the innocent we would weep.
Do women have a right to choose. Yes they do.
There are so many forms of birth control. But today most abortions are done to 5 month babies that have down syndrome and their parents don't want them. They decide that they have no worth.
What kind of people have we become.

Eclesiasties 11:5
Eclesiasties 11:5 "As thou knowest not what is the way of the wind, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all."

Uh....actually....

Sedona Man-re:saved by their own efforts
" If they receive the Gospel, then they are saved by their own efforts."

Extremely generally speaking, Calvinists would agree with your conclusion if I am assuming correctly what you mean by that. You are getting very Arminian (sp?) or free will responses.

Some basic info on the 5 main points of Calvinism sometimes referred to collectively as TULIP that deal with this can be found at:

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

I am not assuming you will agree with what you read there, but it addresses your conclusion.

I will warn you now, this is an incredibly controversial subject and not at all worth discussing with anyone who does not genuinely want to listen to and understand both sides and have a serious and thoughtful Bible based discussion.

Obama Chaos
Edwin Vieira asks "Why doesn't Obama prove, with conclusive
documentary evidence, that he is 'a natural born Citizen' of the
United States who has not renounced his American citizenship?" Because
of his failure, America is potentially facing the gravest
constitutional crisis in her history. "The potential for chaos, both
domestically and internationally, arising out of this systemic
uncertainly is breathtaking." http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin84.htm
It is crucial that people vote against Obama unless he produces proof
that he is eligible to be president. Dr. Vieira says "If Obama turns
out to be nothing more than an usurper who has fradulently seized
control of the Presidentcy, not only will the Constitution have been
egregiously flouted, but also this whole country could be, likely will
be, destroyed as a consequence."
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.