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Monday, June 02, 2008
Harry R. Jackson, Jr. :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Gay Activists Are Headed For The Churches
by Harry R. Jackson, Jr.
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The next two Sundays, a coalition of radical gay groups comprised of SoulForce, The National Black Justice Coalition, and Equality Riders have coerced two of the nation’s most influential leaders into a closed-door showdown. Two of these groups (Soulforce and Equality Riders) are known for civil disobedience - even getting arrested in the name of GLBT justice. Bill Hybels at Willow Creek Community Church and Rick Warren at Saddleback Community Church will meet with these folks on June 8 and 15, respectively. Although Hybels and Warren will undoubtedly defend the faith boldly, SoulForce and company have set up a symbolic media campaign designed to suggest that conservative churches are bending on their gay relationships and marriage prohibitions.

The gay community is revving up its engines for an all out push to “mainstream” gays in three phases of life - marriage, politics, and religion. In some ways their “civil rights” agenda could make them even more equal than others. Research shows that gays are more highly educated and earn more money than other Americans. Therefore, gays have come out of the closet and are taking leadership in many areas of American culture. For these reasons, it is difficult for me, as an African American, to buy into their continual comparison with the civil rights movement and the struggles of African Americans. Their sense of cultural rejection is becoming less and less of a reality. In fact, the “velvet mafia,” as they are called in the entertainment industry, has won many battles in the so-called “culture wars.”

Let me be a little more specific. The militant gay minority has waged a war for recognition on four fronts:

1. The PR and image front – portraying gays as the boy or girl next door.

2. The legal front – fighting in the courts.

3. The educational/ generational front - introducing kids to their way of life at earlier and earlier ages.

4. The religious front – attempting to change the foundational beliefs of the Christian church and ordaining openly gay ministers.

The most difficult target for them on the religious front has been biblically conservative churches. For example on Thursday May 1, 2008, 300 people protested the United Methodist Church's General Conference ruling that the practice of homosexuality is "incompatible" with Christian teaching. The group demonstrated “peacefully” by stopping the conference proceedings for 15 minutes and singing the hymn “Were You There When They Crucified My Lord?”

Compared to the demonstration of 200 gay rights supporters in Cleveland at the General Conference eight years ago, the 2008 outburst seemed mild. Nonetheless, there is the tone of intimidation in the tactics of pro-gay religious activists.

With this kind of history, you can understand that when I first learned that the American Family Outing was planning to visit my church in the Washington, DC area, I assumed that they could picket my church or harass my members.

While their letters and discourse promised civility, we believed that the invitation carried a veiled threat of picketing or disruption if we did not “talk.” Because of our church’s activism in religious freedom disputes, I have received death threats and intimidating e-mails and phone calls from individual gay activists. In light of this history, our church had a feeling akin to those of US leaders who have to decide whether or not to negotiate with terrorists.

Two Saturdays ago (May 24) the radical gay rights group, SoulForce, showed up at our church in Beltsville, MD for a “discussion/debate ” with our pastors. The next day their group of gay “families,” including children, attended one of our worship services. The group of 31 kept their word to act respectfully this time.

So why did they come to our church along with TD Jakes’ Potter’s House, Eddie Long’s New Birth Community Church, and Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Church? And why are they going to Willow Creek Community Church and Saddleback Community Church? The answer is simple. Their goal is to force us to accept their lifestyle by slowly desensitizing us to their aberrant theology and practices. This change in tactics is an attempt to play the pity card.

During the next ten years, I predict that gays will attempt to invade the conventional, Bible believing church. They realize that their plan will not affect the current evangelical movement very much. On the other hand, they can set the stage to mainstream gays into membership at the average Baptist or even Pentecostal church.

It is no accident that this American Family Outing began the week before the landmark gay marriage decision came down from the Supreme Court of California. The ruling, which declared that same sex marriage is a constitutional right for citizens of that state, overturned Proposition 22 - the state’s Defense of Marriage Act. Proposition 22 was passed in 2000 by 61% of the voters of the state. It made this declaration: "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid and recognized in California."

Although the mainstream media has played down the California ruling and New York Governor Patterson’s promise to honor gay marriage from other jurisdictions in New York, a battle about the marital status and rights of gays is undoubtedly about to occur. I expect a grassroots, political tug of war similar to the 2004 Presidential campaign. Evangelicals, be prepared for things to get rough.

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About The Author

Bishop Harry Jackson is chairman of the High Impact Leadership Coalition and senior pastor of Hope Christian Church in Beltsville, MD, and co-authored, Personal Faith, Public Policy [FrontLine; March 2008] with Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council.

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Hang in there Bishop Jackson...
...the prayers of this Mormon are with you. Stand up for what you know is right and the Lord will bless you for it.

Homosexual, not Gay
As that great moral philosopher, Rhet Butler in “Gone With the Wind,” replied when asked about his decision to enter the Confederate Army near the end of the war, when it was apparent that the South was losing, “Sometimes lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for.”

I certainly am not arguing that the Cause was worth fighting for; just Butler’s commitment.

Maybe it is a lost cause, but I do not want to fall into the semantic trap of using the word “gay” to apply to homosexuals. Homosexuality is by no means gay. It is a cross, that resolutely resisted, can be united with Christ’s suffering on the cross, and turned into redemptive suffering. The same is true of me as a heterosexual man; I must resolutely resist the urge to lust after every woman that walks by.

It is a disservice to homosexuals to pander to them and call them gay. Down deep in their hearts, they must know that it is not right, and that they are unhappy, not gay. They merit our love and prayers. Tolerance, of course. Approval, never. That would be un-Christian and detrimental to their immortal souls.

Where have you been Harry?
The Gay activists have been taking over the mainstream denominations for decades, grabbing power as usual and pushing a pro-homosexual agenda.

This is why so many independant, non-denominational churches are springing up, and real Christians are running to them in droves.

The advantage of going to an independant church is that a gay activist has a harder time hiding like a Trojan Horse until he or she is ready to assault the tenants of the faith.

In a chain denomination, they can grab power centrally and try to force the believers to accept their nonsense.

I want to remind everyone that God gives the true believer the gift of discernment, and we are able to spot phoney doctrine a mile away.

In the words of Jesus: "...he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.?

It is certainly possible that the Christian Church may someday have to go underground in order to believe the true teaching of Scrptures, but persecution usually brings about a refinement and strengthing of the church.

The Gospel
is for every sinner. The whole human race. Any church that preaches repentance from sin and adherence to The Bible will be able to help people who are attracted to the same sex. Such churches will also be able to help people who are attracted to the opposite sex. Abstinence till vows, and the union of a man and woman are the norm.
Does everyone do that? No. But God's standards don't differentiate. So, when heterosexuals and homosexuals sin, repentance and asking for The Holy Spirit to empower them to live godly is the answer.

I had a brief correspondence with...
...a member of this "soulforce" org, a woman by the name of Kara. Our brief email exchanges didn't go very far because she said that she sensed within me a reluctance to be open to her "truth" (I still have the emails if anyone would like to see the result of my attempts to engage her). She and her org want to get Osteen and others to be open to their POV, but they don't seem very open to having the reverse done to them. And she equated people like me (someone who takes the Bible word-for-word and holds to the anti-homosexuality verses) to the KKK. Needless to say I was highly offended. She shut me down and refused to talk any further after I read the rationale for their beliefs (a 26-page downloadable .PDF file which is ideologically full of holes and shows the mental backflips they're performing to Biblically justify themselves). I told her this doc was on a poor foundation and that if she wanted to really "engage" I could tell her why. She made the KKK remark and cut me off after that email (it felt like a drive-by). (cont'd)...

cont'd...
Open-minded indeed. My fear is that the Sheila Kuehls and others in our political system will eventually try to punch a hole in the First Amendment in order to outlaw Biblical Christianity, getting the State to define the belief system in a way that accommodates their agenda. They've already done this to an extent in Canada and their are traces of this in Europe and Australia where ministers and Christian businesspeople have been brought to court or outright arrested on discrimination charges and hate-speech violations. We have such a case right here in the States in NM, I believe, involving a homosexual and a Christian photographer. She is a private businessperson, not a state employee, but that doesn't seem to matter.

Folks, this country was started by people seeking religious freedom and a bloody war was the only way that path was paved. We may be in for another fight. I just hope that this one isn't as bloody. But either way people, we need to be ready. Let's get off our complacent butts and get involved!

The problem with these people is this...
...the Church is shining a light so bright that it's hurting the homosexual activists' eyes. Hence, they need to shut that light down, the Bible or US Constitution be damned!

Boy Scouts

Even after the Supreme Court ruling - the homosexual agenda has convinced the City of Philedelphia to persecute the Boy Scouts.

The Boy Scouts gave in tust to the City the building the Boy Scouts built and have been leasing for a symbolic $1.

They are the LEAST tolerant folks I have run into. Expect to be persecuted, expect intimidation if you don't cede to their weak logic or determination.

As the Reverend pointed out they have generally more money (no children to expense) and more time.

Give money to the firm but kind organizations that support the family and articulate clearly "No" to the homosexual lobby.


It's all in a name
I have a close Christian friend who has repented of his homosexual lifestyle of many years. He is celibate, active in his Church and repudiates the lifestyle, the core philosophy and the jargon of the homosexual movement. He refers to himself as a "que_r." That is the term they use for themselves. It certainly is less neutral, or acceptable than "gay." When it comes to being lulled to sleep or losing the culture war words matter. Call a que_r a qu_er or maybe homosexual, but be careful of watered down terms such as gay.

Curiously I had to spell the word que_r the way I did because it is an "unacceptable" word by the comments overseers at townhall.com. Isn't it interesting that a group can use it of themselves but someone else can't?

Feel better?
Do you all feel better now you've got all that pent-up homophobia out of the system? Now how about we stop and rationally look at things. Homosexual people are identical to everyone else except for the sexual attraction they feel. That is one small part of the overall package. Have you considered what motivates activists to protest the way they do? Have you considered whether there might be a point to it, whether or not the expression is articulate? What is the source of this anti-Jesus prejudice being shown here? I rather think the pastor might type a little differently if Jesus really was looking over his shoulder.

The only reason to discriminate on the basis of sexuality is religious. Is the good pastor able to articulate a rational and empirical basis for that discrimination? Otherwise why gove him the time of day? He is a bigot, and his column is laughably medieval.

Stuart

So-called "persecution" of the BSA...
The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) went to the US Supreme Court to argue that they should not be forced to accept gay scoutmasters (or gay boy scouts) because they considered gay people to be immoral. They won their case on those grounds -- they stated that they believed gay people to be immoral, and the Court agreed that they may therefore invoke their First Amendment rights of expressive and intimate association to deny membership to gay scoutmasters and gay scouts.

Actions have consequences. When you go to court and place it on record that you are homophobic, you may well win your case (if the case involves freedom of expressive and intimate association). But having taken that position publically, the BSA must now accept the consequences.

Jurisdictions all over the US have declared that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is unacceptable. About 20 states have passed statewide antidiscrimination statutes, and many large corporations abide by anti-discrimination policies. If the BSA wishes to violate these policies, the BSA must face the consequences of such violation. This may mean that corporations will withdraw funding; that towns and cities with anti-discrimination legislation may withdraw access to facilities, or charge the prevailing market rate for such access.

The BSA is trying to have its cake and eat it too. Having declared themselves to be homophobes, they now express anger when denied access to below-market services that were previously granted to them.

This is called democracy. It is also called accountability for their actions.

PHILIP CHANDLER

Stu don't bother
They think they are being persecuted by the gay activists, because they teach that we choose our sexuality and for that choice we are going to hell. Even the Catholic Church understands that we don't choose. Even the American Psychiatric Association understands that we don't choose.

This will be a never-ending argument at least in my life-time.

here, here
Stu:)

So-called "persecution" of churches...
No church in the US can ever be forced to perform gay marriages against its will, in just the same way that no church in the US can ever be forced to perform marriages of divorced people, or marriages of people who are not members of the church in question.

This is a typical red herring, thrown into the mix to divide people and to turn people against gay Americans. The churches must be feeling very fragile indeed to permit this type of diversion...

PHILIP CHANDLER

Counterattack
Let's demand the right to enter homosexual bars, bathhouses, clubs, and associations to pass out tracts on the sinfulness of the homosexual lifestyle and offering the possibility of change. Then, we will demand the right to be appointed presidents of such associations.

Evangelicals Be Prepared!
Preparation is the key to all things. Jackson is right, a strategic tactic has been operating for years in the homosexual community to get their agenda accross into mainstream America. They have been successful in our school systems and areas of government. The question is will the church uphold the Bible? Homosexuals need salavation, but be ye not fooled!

Stu you are wrong when you wrote:
"The only reason to discriminate on the basis of sexuality is religious. Is the good pastor able to articulate a rational and empirical basis for that discrimination? Otherwise why give him the time of day? He is a bigot, and his column is laughably medieval."

David Blankenhorn, a life-long, pro-gay, liberal democrat who disagrees with the Bible’s prohibitions against homosexual behavior, makes a powerful case against Same-Sex marriage in his book, The Future of Marriage.

He writes, “Across history and cultures . . . marriage’s single most fundamental idea is that every child needs a mother and a father. Changing marriage to accommodate same-sex couples would nullify this principle in culture and in law.”

As Frank Turek wrote when reviewing Blankenhorn’s comments:

Contrary to what homosexual activists assume, the state doesn’t endorse marriage because people have feelings for one another. The state endorses marriage primarily because of what marriage does for children and in turn society. Society gets no benefit by redefining marriage to include homosexual relationships, only harm as the connection to illegitimacy shows. But the very future of children and a civilized society depends on stable marriages between men and women. That’s why, regardless of what you think about homosexuality, the two types of relationships should never be legally equated. That conclusion has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with what’s best for children and society.

Doesn’t sound like a “religious” argument to me. Though who says we must toss out an argument just because it is religious?

Kepha
Good call, certainly the homosexual community's devotion to tolerance will cause them to welcome such acts with open arms.

Fundamentals
When I was a kid, our pastor and Sunday school teachers always led us in prayer at the beginning of our class or sermon. They would pray that the Lord would open our hearts to a proper understanding of the scriptures.

As a Baptist I was taught it was the responsibility of every believer to read and understand the scriptures by what the Lord revealed to you in light of your own experiences. It seems that many gay people have done just that and they have drawn different conclusions than others. I remember being taught that such differences weren't anything to be afraid of, even though we should examine them for ourselves. And even if when we didn't adopt those beliefs ourselves, we weren't supposed to put a "stumbling block" in front of them.

Kepha
I hear you and agree. If homosexual activists have the right to be included and to pass out their material and speak their garbage wherever they desire, then christian activists have the right to enter any homosexual establishment and speak their ideas and pass out their material wherever they choose as well. If the homosexuals try to fight that, we should be able to take them to court to demand that they honor our constitutional rights.

Let's take the battle to them.

Further, I say if they want to enter the churches, then let them enter. They need to hear the truth, so let them come in and get it. Let us give them the whole, unexpurgated truth direct from God's word, and make no apologies for it. Two things will happen, they will see the error of their ways and accept the salvation of Christ and will strive to live a holy life in accordance with God's word, or they will run screaming.

bigfootbob
I, too, object to the use of the word "gay" for homosexuals. My third graders now think "gay" is a bad word, and forget about singing "Deck the Halls" at Christmas. "Don we now our gay apparel. Fa, la, la...."

"Jesus I know, and Paul I know..."
I find it revealing that the homosexuals are targeting specific churches which are generally those teaching and practicing a watered down theology.

Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, and Bill Hybels teach a combination of prosperity and humanism type of message that largely appeals to those who have their hope in things of this life and seldom hear "deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Me."

The targeting of these types of congregations reminds me of the itinerant Jewish exorcists of Acts 19 who, attempting to exorcise demons, tried to do it in the "name of the Jesus that Paul preaches." The demons declared, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?"

and "the man in whom the evil spirit was, leaped on them, mastered all of them, and overpowered them..." Acts 19:15

Watch for these lukewarm churches will capitulate and make some kind of a compromise with these lost souls.

economic class
highly paid gays are a threat to the american way of life. Read the article. if only they were poorer it might be better for them. that way we wouldnt have to worry about their getting some of what is mine in civil rights??? what theheck do civil rights have to do with economic status (and youd be very very careful with your answer. . some suggest that things out there are right on the edge of really getting angry about thehigh low split in economics. we may just get to the point where we decide to re....no i wont say it but you should think it. there is a limit to this kind of stuff as the french aristocrats found out.

big footbab
almi\ost sounds as though you are saying or implying that Christ was gay.

Stu and friends
How about a little religious tolerance, yourselves? Not only is the Bible unambiguous about the sin of homosexual behavior, it is pretty clear about all illicit sexual activity. The reason the Catholic Church condemns artificial birth control is because it has split the proverbial atom. What God designed as a singular expression of love and committment resulting in new life has been reduced to casual acts of self-indulgence with ugly consequences. The result has been catastrophic on our society - not just in terms of health and social issues and expense, but in the way we regard and value children and the family. We are made in His image - the sexual act was designed, by Him, to be sacred - to unite us with Him in love and the creation of life - of a family.
If you can explain how homosexual behavior reflects God's image theologically, I'm anxious to hear it. I have friends and family members who are homosexual - I would appreciate the opportunity to believe they are not engaging in a habit of sin.

Rev Harry
I was just mentioning you on another board. It seems as if you have a different tone here than what you said to these people a week ago. Seems like your talkin out the side of ya neck. Check it out for yourself:

http://www.soulforce.org/article/1385

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad6IP-Zr3zc&feature=user

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usabQiWvwfk&feature=user

http://www.soulforce.org/afo

Interesting too that you keep mentioning "the gay community". Rather a broad term, especially when you were meeting primarily with gay christians. Also, you said "generational front". Well, apparently the reason why was because gay people have children too.

Kepha
"....offering the possibility of change."

So gay people can "change" their sexual orientation?

It's subersion, not persecution.
Phillip C: You're right to believe Christians, both Catholics and Protestants aren't persecuted. It's against the law. But the law can be subtly subverted by a handful for horrendously selfish reasons, some of them outright murderous. Remember Roe v. Wade? The churches weren't persecuted per se, but many of their members who are actively prolife have been since 1973. Thousands of them in fact, and their biggest "offense" was to stop the one of the largest legal genocides in history. If Roe isn't overturned, we'll eventually pass Uncle Joe Stalin and Mao's record. And how many people have been led to their deaths thanks to HIV/AIDS?

Bring on the persecutions. We've survived them all. But those millions of unborn kids haven't. Surviving persecution's one thing, surviving the legal subversion of the law to selfish and barbarous ends is another animal entirely.

If the will of the voters can be overturned by four justices and law can be twisted and turned to allow social abominations such as "gay marriage," it can be twisted and turned to allow a lot of other things; none of which I care to witness. Do you?

Married, Christian, White, Straight.....
.... and I think that giving the gays/lesbians marriage rights is a terrific thing.

I've yet to hear one way in which this will any impact on my life whatsoever.

The Nerve!
Why, with these frightening gay people wishing to meet with opposing groups...taking advantage of their right to freedom of assembly...asking that their relationships be recognized...and (shudder) even earning good livings, it's almost as if they're, I don't know, actual American citizens!

Pardon the sarcasm, but this column is written from inside such an outdated echo chamber, I couldn't resist. Jackson neatly summarizes the "argument" that results when one assumes that human sexuality is a choice. He further believes that any attempt to enter a dialogue on issues that affect so many areas of one's existence equals "Exposure to Their Way of Life." He's uninformed (by choice, I suspect) on the former matter. On the latter, he'd obviously prefer that the dialogue just go away -- not unlike those liberals who, for instance, want to shut down the abortion debate now that we have Roe v. Wade. Sorry, but in this country you don't get to choose what the rest of us get to discuss.

Finally, representing the entire GLBT population with some people in funny costumes (as the photo editor does) is like representing all African Americans with a pic of "gangsta" rappers. It's one more tiresome, discredited element in a column full of them.

Renounce authority
It should have been obvious that legalization of gay “marriage” would not be the end of their demands, for madness once unleashed knows no bounds. Churches will now be required to marry gay couples. If they capitulate, admitting them to communion, the ultimate goal, will follow. Therefore, Christian churches, along with their conservative Jewish synagogues should IMMEDIATELY renounce their authority to perform marriages that are recognized by civil law. Their marriage ceremonies will then become like any other sacrament. If couples so desire, they can also get a civil ceremony to avail themselves of legal benefits, if any. Since fornication and adultery are no longer crimes, and domestic partners are now recognized by society, there might not be any need for a civil ceremony at all.

solidstate
Great post.

the pastor
only touches on how the homosexual activists intimidate and threaten. They, indeed, are terrorists--and we should never bargain or negotiate with terrorists (unless we are Barack Obama). I don't believe it is beyond the scope of their involvement that they are willing to kill one of their own here or there and blame it on "discrimation" against homosexuals. Maybe strapping bombs on themselves will be next. As if AIDS isn't explosive enough. Let us remember that we, as Christians (read: NOT doormats)are soldiers for Christ. We fight a spritual battle against a very powerful supernatural force (satan and his cohorts). Two of his best weapons right now are "tolerance" and "diversification." REAL Christians will continue to fight for Christ and His commands. He died for that. He died for us. Our commander-in-chief demands allegiance to Him. I would encourage everyone to go back and read the second comment here written by bigfootbob. It was excellent.

Watch the Body of Christ ....
Roll Over when their tax defferments are threatened.
There was a time that I would be upset, until I realized that a key contributor to the problem was Me, Myself and I.

bigfootbob
You don't know how right you are. I'm the adoptive mother of a racially mixed son who was seduced into homosexuality when he was a teenager. It's been 20 long years, he'd left the family because we refused to love him into Hell like a lot of P-flag familys do. He has learning disabilities, and a deep anger problem because his birth mother gave him up for adoption. His teenage years were one battle after another til he left home at 18. We didn't learn the truth til he'd left. My prayer all these years was that he wouldn't die in his sins. He's an alcoholic and suicidal (not very gay is he?), he is trying desperately to separate himself from his homosexual life. He's renewed his commitment to Christ but it would be naive for us to believe he will just instantly turn away from the temptations, even though we believe in miracles. I am just leaving him to God, there are no short cuts for him. Our other five kids have rallied around him.
He is a prime example of recruitment, we attributed his behavior as a teen to the typical teen rebellion with the added adoption confusion. No, it's anything but GAY and for any of these poor lost souls to say or think otherwise is nothing more than lying to themselves. They bought the lie.

COMMUNIST TACTICS

.....Rev Jackson ...

.....Gay Activists are using Communist techniques as outlined in "The Naked Communist" by Cleon Skousen http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goals.htm ...

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling
them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and
free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by
promoting pornography and obscenity in books,
magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity
as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed
religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible
and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which
does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious
expression in the schools on the ground that it
violates the principle of "separation of church and
state."

.....These goals were part of the Communist plan to take over the USA Government in the sixties ...obviously many groups, the GLBT included, are using these techniques today .....COLOSSUS

Religions, Relationships and Politics
I will start out and state unequivocally that I am a christian. I will also state that my problem does not begin with homosexual activity. This activity is no more or less abhorant than the sexual improprieties that I have engaged in my life (pre-marital sex and so forth). My problem is that according to doctrine and my faith I am able and willing to call what I have done a sin but for me to address the actions of someone that is homosexual in the same manner we are well on our way to it being called a hate crime. With that being said, I also believe that the doors of the church are open to all. Me with my sins and others with theirs. All that I can say is that I don't ask the Church to change its doctrine to allow me to feel better about what I have done. Christ's redemption is for that but the way to that redemption is through repentance. That is the doctrine of my faith and should change for no man or woman. I think that I have seen some of you post on other stories and admit to atheism and in my opinion that would eliminate your opinion on the subject anyways. This is not to make the argument that I've heard before that if you didn't wear they uniform you can't comment on the war. This has to do with doctrine and faith and if you have neither in the christian sense why bother commenting on something that you don't beleive anyways?

RALPH ELLISON

.....I have a neighbor who has the hots for his "pet" pig Petunia ...I know they have been living in sin for many years ...should I approach him about "coming out" and to bring Petunia to church ...what do you think? .....COLOSSUS

tea party
to whom are you praying? the god you suposedly believe in the one of forgiveness and mercy, the one who wil forgive all sins except hippocriticism. you are a terrible person who at the very botton of the long list of w sins you have committed is that of hurting your son,. you shouldbe ashamed, or according to the Bible killed.

Didn't we all know it was headed
There?! Now where is that separation of gvmnt.
and church ???
If the religionists of america ever wake up..
they will start uniting on this cause: baptist,
lutherans,catholics,mormons,etc. Better unite
and fight this ! Or the next thing you know
the Gvmnt. will state that prayer must be said
in a certain manner...for equality of course!
then the Gvmnt. will say your meetings will be held at certain times and only last the amount of time we allow! then they will say we will
appoint your leaders...DEPT. OF RELIGION!
Then they will say..you can no longer use the name of JESUS CHRIST because not everybody believes in the JESUS STORY !!
elvis

Stu's comment
Religious teaching is very specifically designed, whether you believe it is ordained by God or man, to set boundaries, to establish norms. Any boundary or norm will include certain behavior, and exclude other behavior.

We confuse having an urge with "normal," as in, accepted, behavior. Right now, we (most of us) agree that for any adult to have sex with an infant is "outside the boundaries." There ARE people who have these urges, though. There are entire subsets of "outside the boundaries" sexual behavior. But the point is, boundaries, rules, are by definition EXCLUSIONARY.

Jesus' first instruction to anyone he interacted with was "go and sin no more." He associated with sinners, but he never condoned, nor, we assume, participated in the sin himself. He warned us that following him was going to be difficult... if homosexuality is defined as a sin by Biblical teaching, then if you want to be part of a Biblically-based church, you have got to abide by the rule, and accept that that behavior, however much the urges may be there (and "God-given"), is *excluded.*

Why?
Why doesn't the homosexual community start its own churches? If there are enough of them to protest then their would be enough people to start a church. If they are preaching the truth then people would come. Shouldn't they be getting to work as missionaries of their own theological beliefs and leave the rest of us alone. This is America afterall, if you don't like the choices you have every right to create your own choice.
Could one homesexual explain to me why it isn't about follwing what you believe the Bible is saying, but about forcing others to change what they believe the Bible is saying?

PhillipCfromNYC
The BoysScouts are privately funded and recieve no public funds. Philadelphia also signed the lease agreement for the building. City owned land. BSA built and maintained the building. The building was built by the scouts, for the scouts per the lease.

Remember, the lease is a two way street. If Philly wants to break the agreement. Fine, but they need to compensate the BSA for their millions they spent on the building over the years. Law is law.

Also, the BSA does discriminate on gender as well. Do females have a right to demand entrance into the BSA core program (not the venturing program) and force them to change their policies of discrimination based on gender?

fred
the bible is unambiguous about a lot of things. that what makes it so dangerous.

read Deuteronomy 1 1-15 and then imagine a muslim imam reading that iinschool to a young or old muslim. what ideas will he come away with about the nature of the christian god. i assume you have a bible handy. if not use the net
also look up witches and burning, killing bad parents, killing first born (I am a first born abd knowing gods fetish for killing them have been concrned all my life) , snake handling and poison drinking, rich and the eye of a needle, . look in a concordane for the word, slaughter, kill, bllod of enemies. destroy towns and cities ets. you get the general idea. but never forget , yours is a kind, loving, gentle, caring, forgiving, etc god. ggod thing would hate to see him if he had a murdrous bent

Are we fighting the right battles?
As a committed Christian, I firmly believe that homosexuality is a sin against God's laws. Like bigfootbob stated:"Tolerance, of course. Acceptance, never." Now to be clear, I'm talking about the sin and not the sinner. Anyone who has had children can fully understand how one can separate the action from the person performing the act.

Still, in a free society, where each person has the liberty to seek their own happiness, is fighting gay marriage a losing battle? More to the point, does it make Christians appear dogmatic and hateful to sinners?

Our whole system of government is centered on civil liberties. Individuals should be free to live their lives as they see fit. Governments have established preferential treatment to married couples. To then prevent people from being able to access those preferences is not just.

Our Consitution states everyone is equal under the law, therefore, it is not just to establish laws that benefit one person over another. One of two things MUST occurr. Either remove the impediment to marriage and allow ANY couple that right, or remove the benefits conferred upon marriage by our laws. There can be no other resolution that is just.

Christian & Gay
Let me reiterate what some others have said. I'm 38 and I've been a Christian since I was a teen. For most of my life I assumed my same-sex attractions were a choice. So I tried to unchoose them. I prayed and prayed and prayed. I buried myself in the word. I surrounded myself with Christians. I got involved in every church I attended. I worked as a youth leader, church board secretary, church board treasurer, etc. Nothing worked.

It all unraveled about 5 years ago, when I erroneously decided that God must have intentionally made me to be something he hated. It wasn't until I lived in that brokenness for nearly 3 years that I returned to God hoping for some final remedy to my same-sex attractions. And, it was through that that I realized that it wasn't God who hated me, but it was me. God's love is unconditional. There is nothing we can do to earn His love. And, over the course of 2006, I gradually accepted that I was gay and "came out."

I didn't immediately put on drag and go parading. I didn't abandon my Christian morality. I didn't start clubbing or drinking or sleeping around. I'm still a virgin. But, what did happen is my walk with God improved so profoundly that it was like being "born again again." For the first time in my life I could spend time with God and not feel ashamed of who I was.

(continued...)

Gay & Christian (continued)
Being gay is not about doing something, its about being something. And, if we think that something is something horrible, then we assume that we are horrible. This has driven millions of gay and lesbian people from the church and from a relationship with Christ. This has led to a "spiritual holocaust" of about 20 million people in America. I meet so many people who have been so wounded by the church and by Christians who hated their gayness (of which, I was one) -- something they couldn't change about themselves.

And, I am committed to reaching this lost segment of our society for Christ. You see, I can choose whether or not to be a Christian, but I cannot choose whether or not to be gay. I can choose my actions and behaviors -- but not the basic state of my orientation. And, through all this, I am committed to being uncompromisingly Christian and unapologetically gay. Thanks for taking time to read.

Grace and peace,
Scott

Choice?
Swampfox Location: SC
Reply # 13
Date: Jun 2, 2008 - 6:31 AM EST
Subject: Stu don't bother
They think they are being persecuted by the gay activists, because they teach that we choose our sexuality and for that choice we are going to hell. Even the Catholic Church understands that we don't choose. Even the American Psychiatric Association understands that we don't choose.

This will be a never-ending argument at least in my life-time.
=============================
Well, I see you've taken the choice argument to heart -- making sure that no one else has a choice in their beliefs, either.

How long ago was it that homosexuality was a mental disease? I wouldn't quote too many APA decisions, mate.

P.S. The Catholic church does not believe any such thing. The Roman Catholic church may believe that, but the Pope has issued no such doctrinal considerations.

Suffering
Cliff Location: NY
Reply # 36
Date: Jun 2, 2008 - 9:53 AM EST
Watch the Body of Christ ....
Roll Over when their tax defferments are threatened.
There was a time that I would be upset, until I realized that a key contributor to the problem was Me, Myself and I.
=======================
Many Christians have suffered unto death in conviction of their faith. Just last year my church lost a missionary to service.

I suppose your threat should have some significance but my church will not cease existing because drama-queens scare the government into persecuting Christians.

Wow Scott
I am glad you found Peace. I wish you the best of luck and hope God will help you be successful.

...
Pig farmers might as well try getting pork accepted in mosques.

God also loves homosexuals
And therefore I don't see any problem with inviting them to church or to accept the Gospel. I've invited homosexual friends to Sunday School with me so they could experience the love of Christ.

HOWEVER, the Bible is clear that the homosexual lifestyle is not God's law. I know a couple of homosexual men who are Christian who live celibate lives because they desire to please God. Homosexuals need to understand that if they accept Christ, they will have to give up the gay lifestyle, but Christ will help them do it. They may decide they are not ready for that. If they do accept Christ, Fellow Christians need to support and help them stay faithful to God's word, just like we need to support single Christians to remain chaste, etc. It can be hard in today's world.

I don't believe in gay marriage, and I don't think practicing homosexuals should be given positions of leadership in the church. As far as gay scout masters - the reason it makes no sense is the same reason heterosexual males are not allowed to be scout masters for girl scouts. While 90% of gay men are not pedophiles, just like 90% of heterosexual men are not, you cannot take ANY risks with vulnerable children.

However, God does love homosexuals too and Christians need to remember that.

Christian?
scottstraley Location: CA
Reply # 49
Date: Jun 2, 2008 - 10:58 AM EST
Subject: Gay & Christian (continued)
Being gay is not about doing something, its about being something. And, if we think that something is something horrible, then we assume that we are horrible. This has driven millions of gay and lesbian people from the church and from a relationship with Christ. This has led to a "spiritual holocaust" of about 20 million people in America. I meet so many people who have been so wounded by the church and by Christians who hated their gayness (of which, I was one) -- something they couldn't change about themselves.

And, I am committed to reaching this lost segment of our society for Christ. You see, I can choose whether or not to be a Christian, but I cannot choose whether or not to be gay. I can choose my actions and behaviors -- but not the basic state of my orientation. And, through all this, I am committed to being uncompromisingly Christian and unapologetically gay. Thanks for taking time to read.

Grace and peace,
Scott
=================================
Scott, my ancestors were burned to death, poisoned, enslaved, and considered property because of their birth circumstance. The fact that you consider your right to have male anal sex while persecuting Christians who read and follow the words of Christ and his Apostles equivalent to the millions of deaths of minority persecution disgusts me.

No Way
As a Christian I will go to jail before I will give up the truth about the deviant sin of Homosexuality!!! This reminds me of what Lot endured before the fall of Sodom and Gomorah! The Homosexuals were beating on his door but he refused to open the door to them. Christians need to take on the same obediance to God. Remember we already now the end of the story!!!

One Church's Teaching on the Matter
2357. "Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[Cf. Gen 191-29 ; Rom 124-27 ; 1 Cor 6:10 ; 1 Tim 1:10 .] tradition has always declared that 'homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.'[CDF, Persona humana 8.] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."

2358. "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. "

2359. "Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. "

Silly thing to say
On a thread the other day, related to the marriage thing in California, one of the gay people stated that marriage was a firm base for children. Therefore the gay families needed to have the name "marriage" rather than "civil union" since the name would provide that firm base.

That is like saying that you can fly if you call your car an airplane.

patriotic
The Boy Scout SCOTUS case was decided on freedom of association, much like the common sense regarding women's clubs that bar male members. If the gay movement desires, they can set up their own youth clubs. No wait - They already have them. Why does marriage have to redefined just to include gays? Why not include pedophiles (a NAMBLA objective under the penumbra of gay rights), animals, plants, or inantimate objects? Is labelling all who are opposed to homosexual marriage as homophobes likely to effect broad support?
I think not!

MRCMRC
Your issues transcend the context of this thread. I was pointing out the reason for Christian resistance to embracing the "normalcy" of homosexual behavior, and the right to practice their faith without fear of legal or social retribution.

Fivo
Fivo,

Where is my post did I even say that I wanted to have "male anal sex while persecuting Christians"? Please reread my post. If you are going to read your bigoted hatred into what I say, that makes me really sad.

I never equated the plight of the homosexual community to the deaths of millions of people. The word "holocaust" is not reserved for a single historical event. Holocaust is derived from a Greek word meaning complete destruction. And, I think this applies to a segment of people who are denied the opportunity of salvation.

There are 20 million gay people in America, of which less than 2% attend church. The suicide rate among gay teenagers is 3 to 5 times higher than that of straight teenagers. I see this as tragic. But, if you really want 20 million people to be denied the opportunity to participate in the grace of God, then there is little more I can say.

Grace and peace,
Scott

Scott:
If you want to set up a church strictly for gays, feel free. Some may be saved just as in any other church. But don't expect me to attend. I don't mind homos in my own church; they may find Christ. I do object to them being practicing gays in a leadership role trying to teach everyone that they are actually not sinning. When the Bible says they are, then it is a sin. I don't always keep from sinning myself but at least I don't lie to myself and insist that because I do it then it can't be a sin.

Stu
Stu says: "Homosexual people are identical to everyone else except for the sexual attraction they feel."

Really? You ought to stop by and watch the "gay pride" parade here in Boston, with its disgusting display of in-your-face perversion, and then repeat your ridiculous statement.

If heteros ever ever conducted themselves like that in public, they'd be arrested for lewd and lascivious behavior.

45caliber
45caliber,

Should we set up separate churches for Hispanics? Blacks? Swedes? Should we continue to dissect the Body of Christ until we all live in the Christian equivalent of gated communities where "those bad people" can't get to us? Or, is a the Body of Christ supposed to be a diverse organism that can do the most for the Kingdom.

Yes. I have attended predominantly gay churches, but I choose to attend a non-accepting church near where I live. Mainly because most Christians I've met say that they've never met anyone who is gay and Christian. Most people who don't know anyone who is gay think that we're all like what is shown on television, that we're all extremists. In the same way, most gay people think Christians all like to bomb abortion clinics and picket at the funerals for gay people. We need to end the stereotypes and all recognize that we are part of Body.

~ Scott

Being "born that way" does not ...
mean that it is God ordained. God allows many things to take place in this world, but that does NOT mean they are His will.

I have a strong sexual desire to pollinate all the pretty flowers out there. But since I have made a vow to my wife, I CHOOSE to remain faithful. I would find it a very sad existence if I couldn't control my impulses or change how I act on my desires.

How hopeless would our existence be if we stopped believing we can change. The obese could not get healthy. The thief could not stop thieving. The sexually impure could not restrain himself/herself. The liar could not stop lying. Pick whatever negative trait you may be "predisposed" to performing. How sad would your life be if you just relegated yourself to remaining mired there unable to lift yourself or be lifted out of the cycle?

Saying God created you gay may help you explain to yourself your predisposition. It does NOT justify any behavior. Behavior is a choice no matter how strong the inclination is to do so.

A Modest Proposal -- Part 1 of 2
One need not be a religionist to oppose the mainstreaming of the socially dysfunctional elements of the homosexual lifestyle. One must only look to biology. _Pace_ the 1970s rock band Spirit: Homosexuality is "Nature's way of telling you something's wrong"!

Just as babies who are catastrophically impaired either mentally or physically were never meant to survive, but are made to do so via "heroic" intervention at truly horrific expense (much of which is subsidized by "public" monies -- that's your tax dollars and mine, my friends), homosexuality is an EVOLUTIONARY DEAD END.

Mainstreaming homosexual "families" will only encourage more homosexuals to "marry" and conceive children in the lab and the O.R. -- or, nauseatingly, at home with a turkey baster.

Given, for the sake of argument, homosexual activists' own position that homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice but rather genetically INBORN (and hence presumably heritable), anyone with even the most basic knowledge of genetics can see that this only prolongs the process of the "gay gene" being bred out of the population entirely -- not by coercion, but by simple biology!

[Continues in Part 2 of 2]

A Modest Proposal -- Part 2 of 2
I have no quarrel with civil cohabitation contracts between homosexual partners; IMO, homosexuals demand from us much the same sort of pity -- perhaps even VOLUNTARY (NOT coercive, i.e. "public") financial support for counseling services -- as do catastrophically impaired babies who manage to survive WITHOUT extraordinary medical intervention. In religionist terms, hate the sin not the sinner. But I draw the line at taxpayer assistance in actively helping them to procreate. As an adoptee-at-birth, I am keenly aware that there are MANY mentally and/or physically disabled children consigned to the Hell of foster care because they are UNDERSTANDABLY unattractive prospects for adoption. So: why not let civilly contracted homosexual couples who pass rigorous psychological screening adopt ONLY those children who have failed for some set period of time to be adopted?

Let the lame lead the blind! Or, as my paternal grandmother used to say, "Like likes like."

Most comments here...
... opposing homosexuality fall into the trap of referring to "homosexuals" as a distnict, recognizable group. The pro-gay posters do likewise. However, the idea of distinct "homosexuals" (as opposed to people who feel a perhaps-transient attraction for their own sex and act on it) is wildly dubious.
No, we should not hate and fear "homosexuals" -- but for the same reason we should not hate and fear unicorns.

Scott, I am sorry ..
you and many homosexuals endure hate and bigotry from Christians. I am sure there are many Christians that really do hate homosexuals. I doubt, however, that they are in the majority. For many of the Christians I know, they look around them and see there faith under attack by GLBT activists and, like the lion backed into corner, they come out fighting.

If you take the time to get to know these people, they do not hate gays. They resent being told that, not only do they have to tolerate homosexuals, but that they have to accept their chosen proclivities as normal as well. Hence, they may be prone to lashing out.

I repsect the fact that you have made the choice to accept your predisposition but not to act on those desires. I think that speaks both to your faith and your commitment to that faith. I believe a homosexual can live a morally pure life by not being sexually active similar to a single person.

I pray that you continue to find the strength in Christ live a morally pure life and not give in to your desires.

Florida
"This reminds me of what Lot endured before the fall of Sodom and Gomorah! The Homosexuals were beating on his door but he refused to open the door to them. Christians need to take on the same obediance to God. Remember we already now the end of the story!!!"

So your quoting from the story of Lot are you? Well, you must remember how the story ended right? Lot and his 2 daughters fleed to mountain. While there, Lot had sex with both of his virgin daughters. These 2 incestous encounters resulted in both daughters getting pregnant with their brother/son. Lot became a grandfather/father. Gen. 19:30-38

So what were you saying again?

Gay vs. Homosexual
There is nothing "gay" about being perverted. Homosexual's arguements are just straw dogs, without merit on any front. Phooey.

Bob_C
Bob_C says, "If heteros ever ever conducted themselves like that in public, they'd be arrested for lewd and lascivious behavior."

Well, Madonna is heterosexual. Gee, so is Warren Jeffs. Should I assume that that's how you express your heterosexuality? Maybe I should go see "Sex In The City" to learn how "heteros" behave. I mean, they're all the same, aren't they? Or, maybe, the people who participate in gay pride parades represent a small vocal confrontational minority of gay people? Maybe the diversity of sexual expression in the straight community mirrors the diversity of sexual expression in the gay community.

~ Scott

Reply to #49
I appreciate your honesty. I know of someone that is going through same sex attraction struggles. He knows it is wrong, and has countlessly hunted for some couseling in this area. He does not want to have these feelings because he too is a Christian and believes and knows what the Word of God says about homosexuality.he suffers emotionally and needs pray and support. God can and will heal in His timing. This man has found a wonderful place called healingforthesoul.com. It is a wonderful site and has great counselors.Alot of you that are condeming these men and women of their life styles need to go to this site and read about why and what causes people to be lesbian or homosexual.

There is alot we can do as Christians to help those struggling with these feelings. First of all, stop pointing fingers and condeming. Start loving, praying for and treating them as you want to be treated yourself. I am a Christian woman, married with a wonderful husband and five beautiful children. I have lost a child to a disease and have another who is a homosexual. I love all my children, and am very proud of each of them. I do not agree with the homosexual life style, but I pray for God to help me help them to find their way out. We have to love uncondtionally and show the love of Christ to all. Yes, I understand about all the concerns about the impact of the affects of this lifestyle having on your children, schools, ect... God knows what is going on, and He is in control. Make sure when you take your stands against any issues you disagree with that you do it how the Lord would have you to...respectfully, lovingly, and with the hearts and souls of those you disagree with on mind as to how to help them, and pray for them.

Those of you who are without sin; cast the first stone. We are all sinners, and will never be perfect. But we can have victory over sin with Christ. May God "HELP" America.

spike
Spike Says:
I am keenly aware that there are MANY mentally and/or physically disabled children consigned to the Hell of foster care because they are UNDERSTANDABLY unattractive prospects for adoption. So: why not let civilly contracted homosexual couples who pass rigorous psychological screening adopt ONLY those children who have failed for some set period of time to be adopted?

Let the lame lead the blind!
------------------------------

So gay people get to care only for the people that straight people find undesirable? How generous of you. You are one messed up person.

Mr. Jackson......are you gay?
Are you so myopic as to not recognize that the best and brightest of conservatives are returning to the public and private sectors since the revision of federal employment laws in 1998 based on the Oncale vs Sundowner Offshore Oil Services decision? For fifty years, conservatives have had no legal recourse from illegal job dismissals that were not performance related. Wake up, sir.........the battle is just beginning between neurotic and normal America.

Ralph Ellisons' reply to Florida ...
So, Ralph, are you attempting to mitigate the good the Lot did by the bad that he did? If you are going to do that, there are not very many people in history who can be used as positive examples. Most of us have done things that we're not proud of but that doesn't mean we don't have some redemptive qualitites.

The better lesson to learn here is that God can and does use people who have less than stellar character. If you missed that from Sunday school, I would have to believe that you never attended Sunday school at all.

scottstraley
scottstraley Location: CA
Reply # 63
Date: Jun 2, 2008 - 11:44 AM EST
Subject: Fivo
Fivo,

Where is my post did I even say that I wanted to have "male anal sex while persecuting Christians"? Please reread my post. If you are going to read your bigoted hatred into what I say, that makes me really sad.

I never equated the plight of the homosexual community to the deaths of millions of people. The word "holocaust" is not reserved for a single historical event. Holocaust is derived from a Greek word meaning complete destruction. And, I think this applies to a segment of people who are denied the opportunity of salvation.

There are 20 million gay people in America, of which less than 2% attend church. The suicide rate among gay teenagers is 3 to 5 times higher than that of straight teenagers. I see this as tragic. But, if you really want 20 million people to be denied the opportunity to participate in the grace of God, then there is little more I can say.

Grace and peace,
Scott
===========================
I don't deny anyone to acquire God's grace. The funny thing about your supposition is that grace does not equate to responsibility. If you claim to be Christian you cannot endorse a homosexual lifestyle without avoiding most if not all of the earthly responsibilities tied to Christian men and women.

If you want to be a human being renouncing his carnal desires instead of an animal proclaiming his right to sodomize at will then I support you. If you want to continue perverting Mosaic and Apostolic conventions in order to soothe your sin then I reject your assumption that you are a practicing Christian.

More Black people are murdered each year than the sum total of your gay suicide rates. That means nothing to this conversation, either. Much like the sum of your rhetoric.

Frog Says...
"For many of the Christians I know, they look around them and see there faith under attack by GLBT activists and, like the lion backed into corner, they come out fighting."

Frog, the reason this is so is because your very faith is being used as a weapon against gay people. The main opposition to gay-anything comes from the fervently religious (often Christian, and most-often Evangelical Protestant Christian) who quote passage-and-verse to justify their position.

This vocal minority has such wonderful luminaries like the "Reverend" Fred Phelps who loudly protests military funerals saying God killed our soldiers in Iraq because the US tolerates homosexuality. With cheerleaders like this and the many "misstatements" made by Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc., can you blame people from concluding that Christians are anything but acting Christian-like?

thankyou Pastor Jackson
Food for thought.What is it with us as humans that we need our beliefs to be validated by others.?I realize it can be lonely to be different or to feel different,but why do we need others in society to validate our personal beliefs.?? Is it perhaps we want to silent the opposition?Or is it because we are not sure we are right and we want others to validate or to confirms our self doubt ? What you should not need from anyone ,is assurance that yours doubts concerning your self or your behavior is correct or moral.To stand up for ones own rights is lonely,not easy,but if you believe you are right,why do you feel the need to force others to agree with you???

To Fivo
Fivo states, "More Black people are murdered each year than the sum total of your gay suicide rates. That means nothing to this conversation, either. Much like the sum of your rhetoric." I was nearly one of those gay suicides last year. And, no one would have known why I would have killed myself. I was determined not tell anyone. As for being a Christian and gay, Episcopalians and Lutherans accept us. Even the Catholic church recognizes that fact that we don't choose to be gay.

SkorpioG, there have been ...
mistakes and misteps on both sides. Sometimes, people start out with the best of intentions and wind up hunkering down and fighting back after what they feel are unwarranted attacks. I say that referring to both sides of this issue.

You are correct that some Christians use the word of God as a weapon. Unfortunately, I've done it myself. Sometimes knowingly, and for that I am ashamed.

But there have also been mistakes made by the homosexual community. I'm confident that you won't agree with my here, but I felt the GLBT community went too far and caused much of the problems they are now facing. As mentioned earlier, it is one thing to ask for tolerance and quote another to appear to demand acceptance. For the committed Christian, that is a demand that will be fought tooth and nail.

We can argue semantics and word choice here, but I hope you know my meaning and intent here.

As for the Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwells of this world, may I submit the picture at the top of this post as evidence of using the extreme to define the mainstream? It does't bode well for either side to be defined by such. If you wish to not be defined by the most extreme in your community, please refrain from defining the majority of Christians by the loud mouths in ours.

SoulForce visit results in GLBT club

Soulforce has an insidious effect, even on Christians. A heterosexual Christian woman decided to start a GLBT club on her college campus after SoulForce visited her campus.
The student government voted it down but just barely. While it’s proposed as a non-advocacy group to help students grow, I still don’t think it’s a good idea for a Christian college to allow this with college sponsorship. Thank you, Bishop Jackson, for presenting the rationale on this so well. You know how impressionable college students are.



Willow Creek already submitting?

Will Pastor Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Church “defend the faith boldly?”

I found this comment at a Christian website recently about an April 2008 youth conference at Willow Creek Chuch:

“I have been sent numerous links to the various stories regarding the supposed “repentance” of Willow Creek over its seeker methods. I will make this short and to the point. No pastor, truly repentant for his spiritual malpractice over the course of the last 30 years, would be bringing emerging heretic Brian McLaren to speak to his youth and youth leaders from around the country. Hybels claims that he wants to go forward, “rooted in Scripture” is fascinating, in that he’s bringing someone to address the young people of his church who accepts homosexuality, denies the doctrine of the penal substitutionary atonement of Christ, denies a literal hell, and calls hell and the cross “false advertising for God.” Willow Creek is bringing this fountainhead of theological and spiritual poison to teach the most vulnerable in the flock, the young people, at the April, 2008, “Everything Must Change” Conference.”



Wonderful article
Pastor Jackson!! Thank you for speaking truth. The group Soulforce has tried to meet with my pastor in the past and from what I can tell from this article they haven't taken the bait. http://www.soulforce.org/article/210. Thank goodness for that. I can only hope Pastor Warren, etc (since they are taking a meeting)do share the TRUE light of Christ with them & the other groups attending the meeting; because their 'so called' biblical views (Soulforce/Mel White, etc) are believing in a corrupt, deluded, pick & choose GLBT worldview that takes biblical truth out of context. Pastor Jackson it so right when he said, "Evanglicals, be prepared for things to get rough." Amen

SkorpioG, I should have been ...
clearer in my third paragraph. If I could re-write (and I can and will) it would read like this:

You are correct that some Christians use the word of God as a weapon. Unfortunately, I've done it myself. Sometimes knowingly, and for that I am ashamed. However, calling homosexuality a sin is NOT using the word of God as a weapon. When truth offends, it is a problem for the offended, not the one stating the truth.

Ralph Ellison #72, 12:34PM
Ralphie Boy,

The offspring of that incestuous relationship produced the Moabites and the Ammonites, and that didn't turn out to be a benefit to the people of Israel.


What was it you were saying again?

Frog
“So, Ralph, are you attempting to mitigate the good the Lot did by the bad that he did?”

No I’m not. I was answering the poster “Florida’s” comment.

“The better lesson to learn here is that God can and does use people who have less than stellar character.”

Well that’s your interpretation. My interpretation is that the Bible is a book full of contradictions that shouldn’t be viewed or followed literally.

“If you missed that from Sunday school, I would have to believe that you never attended Sunday school at all.”

Why do you assume that I even attended Sunday School or that I’m even a Christian? Is attending Aunday School a requisite for understanding the story of Lot or the Bible? Is their some ‘truth’ that you have and everyone else doesn’t? You do know that there are other religions in the country right? From your post, I would have to believe that you are a Sunday School teacher or a pastor. It really shows.

Obama most pro-homosexual prez ever

Just for the record, Barack Obama has promised a GLBT publication, The Advocate, to be the most pro-homosexual-agenda presidential candidate ever.

monster
"The offspring of that incestuous relationship produced the Moabites and the Ammonites, and that didn't turn out to be a benefit to the people of Israel."

Not to turn this into "Bible Chat", but you must not forget that King David's lineage is traced to a Moabite woman named Ruth. You also can't forget that Rehoboam, son of King Solomon, was the son of an Ammonite named Naamah. Ironic to say the least

What were you saying?

Im all about..
fighting the good fight, and protecting marriage is necessary. The problem is, for those of us who have lives, children to feed, wives to attend to and carriers to maintain, what can we do? Anyone have any practical suggestions?

scottstraley
You have a lot of maybes and very few facts. Madonna is bisexual, not straight. Maybe the people in the Boston "gay pride" parade are exactly representative of homosexuals in general.

We have a public park in my city which the police have to raid on a regular basis to clean out the gays who're having sex in plain sight of the hiking trails where kids are riding their mountain bikes, and people are walking their dogs or hiking. They take these perverts out of there by the dozens, yet never once have they found a hetero couple having sex in the park.

Maybe the contention that "there is no difference" between hetero and Homosexuals" is just a lot of BS.

PhilipCFromNYC
--"No church in the US can ever be forced to perform gay marriages against its will, . . ."--


Just like the Catholic Charities in Boston could not be forced to facilitate adoptions to gay couples. You're so correct. Instead they were forced by their own convictions to close.

Another poster . . . oh, that was YOU . . . had just finished chastising the evil Boy Scouts of America for their sin of homophobia. Seems they could not be forced (not for lack of trying) to change their standards regarding homosexual leadership. But you took solace in the fact that they had to suffer the financial consequences of their evil convictions as other institutions pass anti-discrimination statutes which discriminate against the Boy Scouts.

Let me get this straight (pardon the pun): No one's going to force the Church to do anything against it's convictions; you're just going to pass more and more laws and statutes making those convictions impossible to live with. Convictions of evil people like the Boy Scouts and orthodox Christianity and Judaism and who knows how many other people have such perverted convictions in their closets? This could get ugly.


My Pet Goat
"I've yet to hear one way in which this will any impact on my life whatsoever."


You must have no kids, or grandkids . . . or convictions of any sort to be so obliviously correct.


Ralph Ellison
You are so right Lot was very human indeed. My point was his obedience when it came to the Homosexuals beating at his door. Christians must be obedient to God regardless of Mans Law! If mans law is contrary to Gods Law then Christians must stand with God!! This position is not always popular or even comfortable, but Jesus never promised us that His way was going to be easy, actually He warned us that it was difficult!

Desensitizing
These tactics only work if members of churches do not believe the Bible. The Bible (in Romans 1) defiinitely shows that homosexuality is not only wrong, but the end result of idolatry. It creates the reprobate mind. We think idolatry is an outdated term. However, worship of self is one form of it. 95% of gay men have been sexually violated in their youth. So how is that natural? This twisting of children produces grotesque adults who practice perversion. One has to work hard to accept the lifestyle as normal. That revulsion of men with men and women with women is built in by God Himself. We should pay attention to that instead of to propaganda and pressure. In the end, they will not inherit the kingdom. And their sin keeps them from the blessing now. That is why they die young and suffer more disease than heterosexuals. They need a wake up call. The plague is on them--a plague loosed from the sin in the garden, and which continues today without discriminating. The curse lands on sin. That sin is particularly heinous. Where is the preaching to help them out of their dangerous lifestyle? We spend more on alcoholic rehab than on this menace that infects every part of our society.

Just amazing......
It is just amazing how much hatred toward homosexuals is expressed on this board every time the subject comes up. It never ceases to amaze me.

More amazing....
It is just amazing how much hatred toward heterosexuals is expressed on this board every time the subject comes up. It never ceases to amaze me.

To Marison
Plenty of heterosexuals who post on these boards support gay rights.

Or Wildly Outrageous "Facts"
"95% of gay men have been sexually violated in their youth."

Really?

Where's Luis? He'll be here soon with more "facts" provided by the unbiased "Family" Research Council and Heritage Foundation (where he works).

Swampfox, I don't exactly know which ...
thread you're referring to. If it's this particular one, please point out the hatred.

See, the problem that I was alluding to in my post to SkorpioG was that homosexuals call disagreement hate. I disagree with my daughter getting a tatoo, does that mean I hate her? I disagree with my siblings drug use, does that mean I them?

For a while, I was beginning to believe that you were a bit more thoughtful than many of the liberals who come here to spout there invective. I'm beginning to have second thoughts.

It's about mainstreaming
That's the point of this article. And that's exactly what's been going on for the last few years and getting stronger by the week.

Say what you want, but there are those of us who are very aware of this mainstreaming effort and will never be seduced by it. The more gullible among us (they think: progressive and forward thinking) will be and are being drawn into this, but not discerning folks.

I'm tired of watching favorite TV shows suddenly pop up with a gratutitous homosexual kissing scene. I'm tired of being hit with it in the media, like it's normal. I'm darned sure not going to put up with organized groups of homosexuals coming into my conservative Bible-based church in an attempt to make their lifestyle seem "normal."

I'll fight that to the death.

If you're a homosexual, who by yourself, wishes to attend my church with an honest and open heart -- come on in -- we'll welcome you.

Well Frog..
Technically we are all free to believe what we want and, within certain limits, live our lives as we see fit.

It's where heterosexuals begin to define what is and is not allowed based on their own standards of morality and the like that we find fault. Again, you and lots of fellow posters are chafing at the idea of gay people being allowed to participate in things your deem reserved for yourself (i.e. marriage, etc.).

Hate may be a strong word, but there is enough evidence posted on this very thread that more than a few heterosexual people honestly do hate homosexual people. If that word doesn't apply to you, then choose a different word: dislike, animosity, antipathy, disgust, etc.

Either word you choose, is honesly fine with me. I'd rather you keep it to yourself as I will do the same. Yet, many people choose to act on their feelings, which brings us to conflict.

Comparisons
Swampfox Location: SC
Reply # 82
Date: Jun 2, 2008 - 1:59 PM EST
To Fivo
Fivo states, "More Black people are murdered each year than the sum total of your gay suicide rates. That means nothing to this conversation, either. Much like the sum of your rhetoric." I was nearly one of those gay suicides last year. And, no one would have known why I would have killed myself. I was determined not tell anyone. As for being a Christian and gay, Episcopalians and Lutherans accept us. Even the Catholic church recognizes that fact that we don't choose to be gay.
===========================================
Again, as I have pointed out but you seem to not want to read -- you, sir, seem to remain alive, while millions of Black babies throughout America alone are murdered simply because of their ethnicity. This in a documented effort to cull Black births in America by a government financed organization. But for some reason your personal hell remains more important than the lives of millions of innocent children.

Either way, the rhetoric on this item is a straw man used to ignore the fact that homosexuals are now trying to guilt legislators into removing religious freedom and speech from Christians in order to pander to a minority group that is completely made up on feelings and opinion, not facts.

I could stand a mix of 20 men and women next to each other and you could not 100% tell which is homosexual or heterosexual.

Also, the Catholic church does not recognize homosexual activity as normal. You are probably (and incorrectly) stating your opinion on the Roman Catholic church. That organization, also, has never recognized homosexuality to be anything other than a choice. If you disagree, please provide an iota of proof. I simply need quote the Apostle Paul when he was writing 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 to disprove your premise.

Gay activists
Thank you Mr. Jackson. This is what I told people in 2006 here in Wisconsin where we passed a constitutional amendment that said marriage was between one man and one woman. The activists will not be stisfied until conservative churches are either cowed into agreeing with them or outlawed. This whole Gay Marriage debate is about freedom of speech. In the end the Gay activists will not be happy when they get gay marriage legalized. They will only be happy when they can force me as a minister to admit them as members and marry them to whomever they choose all the while calling the gay lifestyle good. I simply will not call good what the Bible clearly calls evil.

scottstraley wrote:
"Should we set up separate churches for Hispanics? Blacks? Swedes? "

They already basically have their own churches, if that's what you are talking about. Very few churchs ahve mixed congregations, at least in the South. It doesn't change things.

There are active gays in my church. As I said, I don't care as long as they don't hold positions where they attempt to teach that living gay is fine for religious people. If you want to live like that - fine with me. But I don't care to have gays trying to teach the youth that it is acceptable to God. What is acceptable to God is not necessarily what is acceptable to society. Trying to change a church will not change God. God has already stated his preferences. What man accepts won't buy you heaven. Sorry.

Dear Dull --
One husband, Four children, 7 grandchildren and 2 great-grandchildren, thanks for asking.

Now, care to attempt to answer the original question: how will ANY of us be affect by this?

PS: Congratulations on choosing such an obviously appropriate screen name!

Christian in America are next
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2058935/Police-advis e-Christian-preachers-to-leave-Muslin-area-of-Birmingham.ht ml

A police community support officer ordered two Christian preachers to stop handing out gospel leaflets in a predominantly Muslim area of Birmingham.

The evangelists say they were threatened with arrest for committing a "hate crime" and were told they risked being beaten up if they returned. The incident will fuel fears that "no-go areas" for Christians are emerging in British towns and cities, as the Rt Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, the Bishop of Rochester, claimed in The Sunday Telegraph this year.

This is in England folks. England.

Yeah, I agree
I don't see how it impacts my life, either. I am still free to live my life as I choose. I don't have an emotional need to shove my religious values down anybody's throat. I don't care if gays sit next to me in church, it's not going to change my life in any way. The claim that the mainstreaming of gay life is going to impact heteros like me negatively is just an excuse to be a bigot. Heteros have nothing to lose except their right to hate gays and try to hide it behind religion, that's all.

there is help
all around for homosexuals to lead chaste and happy lives. But, they want ALL to be unhappy and to be seduced by their god, "sex."
ALL sex outside of the marriage between one woman and one man is sinful. Would you really give up your immortal soul for sex??

To Fivo
Fivo writes, "A police community support officer ordered two Christian preachers to stop handing out gospel leaflets in a predominantly Muslim area of Birmingham." I don't agree with you on the gay issue. However, what you state is happening in some European countries. Look at what is happening in France and Holland. The Dutch are some of the most peace loving people on Earth.

Righteousness in sheep's clothing
Swampfox
Location: SC

Reply # 112
Date: Jun 2, 2008 - 6:11 PM EST To Fivo
Fivo writes, "A police community support officer ordered two Christian preachers to stop handing out gospel leaflets in a predominantly Muslim area of Birmingham." I don't agree with you on the gay issue. However, what you state is happening in some European countries. Look at what is happening in France and Holland. The Dutch are some of the most peace loving people on Earth.
=======================
Actually, Fivo didn't write that, Fivo reported that. What I reported was the physical threats against people for expression of their free speech rights in a country that supposedly supports such. Much like you and others are advocating based upon for Christians in America.

When does someone's opinion allow you to have the cops beat them? You have already displayed encroaching their religious beliefs so you feel better.

Although I have empathy for your situation, it does not present you with legal or moral authority because of your sexual orientation. Using your logic, anyone with inclination to a sexual orientation of any kind deserves extra rights. It is ridiculous that because you say you are something you have special rights and laws.

Midwest Minister
Are your prepared for arrest? If not our generation we should really prepare the next because they will not stop and they have been doing a great job of influencing the next generation that Homosexuality is "Normal" and Gods Word is Old Fashion and just a "Story" God Help Us All!

What is the matter with this thread
All the posts are out of order. Is it my computer or is something wrong with Townhall?

Biblical Illiteracy
If the average American Evangelical had as much knowledge of Scripture, to fight spiritual battles, as the average American Evangelical had during Revolutionary times, we wouldn't be stumbling like we are now.

We've allowed college degrees to be our Bible and college degrees were never meant to teach wisdom and Godliness. College degrees are just secular tools.

Our Constitution WAS based on Biblically supported motivations to throw off the yoke of tyranny. But it was only meant to survive if the individual citizen remained generally moral and God-fearing. For those who want to bring up America's hypocrisy, name a better country and explain how pure that country was before the Declaration of Independence. Maybe we should rip up the Constitution altogether, and conclude the man cannot rule him/herself.

Anything goes! Yipee! Freedom!
1) If we can change the definition of gender from either male or female to a new definition of gender: Male or Female or Transgender/Gay then anything goes!
2) If we can change the definition of marriage to any two-some combination of the 3 genders (as defined by GLBT doctrine) then anything goes!
3) The only truth, the only morality is consensual sex. As long as it is consensual then anything goes!
4) Religion is only for the narrow-minded bigots! Freedom FROM God, Freedom FROM religion, Freedom FROM God's immutable laws means no absolutes, moral relativism, moral anarchy and anything goes!
5) If an autocratic non elected State Supreme Court by a 4-3 margin can tyrannically overturn the expressed will of the people and arrogantly ignore thousands of years of moral wisdom then anything goes!
6)If I'm born this way and can't help myself as an alcholic, pedophile, philanderer, on-line porn sex addict, polygamist, cross-dresser, etc, etc, then I want my equal rights and equal protection. I was born this way. I can't help it if I'm addicted to Jack Daniels, or whatever...then Anything goes!
7) GLBT doctrine is new revelation. It is the new enlightenment. The GLBT value system is the new bedrock for American culture. I mean if GLBT's can do all those G's, L's, B's, and T's (or any combination thereof) then why can't I express myself any way I want...why can't I make up my own new enlightenment and follow my inner light to satisfy, gratify my feelings any way I want...ANYTHING GOES!

So what is the big deal with "ANYTHING GOES"?

Identity confusion, gender confusion, identity crisis in our families and culture. Depression. Neurotic behaviors. Suicides. Violence. Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Broken homes. Babies out of wedlock. Confusion, confusion, more confusion. Sex with whoever, whenever, whereever you want. Just be sure it's consensual! No harm - no foul...MORAL ANARCHY is a big bad problem today.

A sad state of affairs
There was a time in this country when the homo's just wanted to be left alone and to live their lives in freedom without harming anyone.

We wouldn't let them do that. Us good Christian folk would inflict physical violence upon them. Sometimes to the point of death whenever discovered and until brother J. McCarthy made the scene, the surest why to destroy a person's name in the community was to make a creditable accusation of being homo.

The Christians in this Country taught the homos that our rights are not "given" to us by the Constitution, we are all born with the same rights. They also figured out that neither the Government or their neighbors were going to defend those rights. They are doing it themselves.

We refused to treat our fellow Americans with the same dignity and respect that we expect to be treated with. The result is that they will make sure that the law will now enforce that respect.

I recall that the religious tolerance practiced by the pagan Cyrus ended up saving Israel and restoriing them to the land of Zion.

Perhaps if we were to make sure that everyone had the same rights that we expect to enjoy we would not feel so "Persecuted".

Gays Coming To Church. Great !!!
Gays coming to church? Wonderful-it saves us the trouble of trying to find them to invite them into our churches.

True Christ-like churches will let the Holy Spirit guide them and win over the gays to Christ. The only churches that will cave in aren't real churches in the 1st place. They're places the phonies like arch racist Jimmy Carter go to once a week to convince others thy're not as bad as God's word says they are.

If you're afraid of gays coming to your church sir-you have the problem with YOUR faith.

But don't worry, God will set the record straight one way or the other.

Gays coming to church
The Wise Doctor Location: GA
Reply # 119
Date: Jun 2, 2008 - 9:31 PM EST
Subject: Gays Coming To Church. Great !!!
Gays coming to church? Wonderful-it saves us the trouble of trying to find them to invite them into our churches.

True Christ-like churches will let the Holy Spirit guide them and win over the gays to Christ. The only churches that will cave in aren't real churches in the 1st place. They're places the phonies like arch racist Jimmy Carter go to once a week to convince others thy're not as bad as God's word says they are.

If you're afraid of gays coming to your church sir-you have the problem with YOUR faith.

But don't worry, God will set the record straight one way or the other.

===============

I invite any homosexual to come to our church. I sincerely hope that the Holy Spirit regenerates their souls. What I have a problem with is the homosexual outlawing the Bible and destroying free speech to fit their concept of existence.

And you are correct, God will set the record straight, mate.

Goes to show...
Tolerance is a one-way street with homosexual activists. Homosexuals do not tolerate anyone who opposes normalizing and celebrating sodomy. The "open discussion" they claim to want is one-way too. No discussion of the possibility of sexual reorientation (for those who want it) is permitted, nor the psychological or scientific evidence that homosexuality is NOT normal or genetically determined, nor the moral or religious perspective of Christians and other groups. To the person earlier who claimed the only objection to homosexuality is religious, that's because the homosexual lobby has beaten any dissenting psychologists or scientists into submission, or ruined their careers. The truth is if homosexuals would go about their business and leave everyone else alone, they'd get a lot more respect and less opposition. The political bully tactics, deceptive propoganda, PC language enforcement, etc. contribute more to any hostility than the phantom spectre of "homophobia". I wouldn't go to a church and demand that they celebrate adultery or polygamy or incest. If I wanted to do those things I'd find a free association of people who shared those values and join them, rather than try to force everyone who freely disagrees with me to act as if they do. I'm for live and let live, and I have no problems with homosexuals who share that philosophy. I'm friends with some lesbians and we get along fine. That's because I don't ask them to change and they don't ask me to change. That should be the model for a free society.

Gays coming to church is a good thing...
Man, I hope the gays show up at my church. They will hear the gospel, sense the conviction of the Holy Spirit, see the Love of God, the call for repentance, hear the truth, and their heart will recognize there is peace in Jesus alone, forgiveness of sins, eternal life, guilt washed away, healing and freedom in the power of Christ's resurrection. A unity of fellowship and community of the heart that touches their soul. Restored relationships with their mom, dad, brothers and sisters. They will cry out: "I once was lost but now I've been found". Praise God!

For Ralph Ellison
I'm sorry to be so late to the discussion but it is a fact that God did and will use people of less than stellar character to further His ends.

Rahab, the prostitute, helped Israel's spies. She was also an ancestress of Jesus Christ.

David, as we all know, committed adultery, plotted and committed murder, married many women, but still in church we sing of "great David's greater Son"-Jesus Christ, to whom David was also an ancestor.

Lot-who was obedient in Sodom, yes, but earlier in life when offered the choice of land by his uncle Abraham, greedily took the better portion.

Abraham-who lied about his wife Sarai to the Egyptians (and for his deception was promptly thrown out of Egypt) and then lay with Sarah's maid rather that await God's timing for a son. That union resulted in the Ishmaelites, these days known as Arabs. Abraham was not only the father of the Jewish nation, he was also an ancestor of Christ.

Noah-who got drunk, passed out, and was seen naked by one of his sons, which son along with his posterity was forever after cursed to be a servant to others because he gazed upon his father's nakedness. Noah was an ancestor of Christ.

St Paul, who was Saul before his conversion. He persecuted the new church, railroading Stephen, the first martyr of the Church, into being stoned to death, and watching the proceedings with approval.

Matthew, who was a tax collector. Zaccheus, likewise. Neither man, honest or not, had the the reputation of being so, given their occupations.

And then there is any of us. Being Christian isn't about being perfect. It's about being forgiven and doing the best we can to thank Him for it.

It is our duty
as Christians to admonish the sinner. Let's not pretend that ANY sex outside the marriage of one man and one woman is sin. So is abortion and, on June 7th, the 43rd anniversary of Griswold vs. Connecticut, we remember the beginning of the slippery slope. This was the first of many decisions that has led to our culture of death and deceit. Life is a gift from God. Don't screw it up. An immortal soul is at stake.

shoppin #110
I think you are a liar.

If you're straight, I'm a giraffe.

My Pet Goat #108
Why do I doubt that you have offspring? As a matter of fact, why do I doubt you were ever even married?

Lot
To those talking about Lot:
Lot's daughters thought that the entire human population had been destroyed. They decided together to get Lot drunk and seduce him so they could have children and continue the human race. Don't forget that Lot's daughters, though raised by Lot, grew up in a very sinful society where anything and everything was being practiced and accepted.
The assumption that Lot was an evil incestuous man is wrong.

test
test

Ask doctors
what evil men (and women) do medically (i.e. ingesting another's bodily emissions of liquid and solids to cut life expectancies not to mention needing a member of the opposite sex to produce a possible child to raise.

Higene
Ever hear of a little something called, "convictions?" Martyrs "fought" to the death all the time for their belief in God and His commands. That doesn't mean "physical fighting." It means standing firm in the truth even unto death. Persecution is only the start for Christians.

Gnome Sane
I'm pretty sure she's married TO her pet goat. From previous posts, it appears goats live to be about 44 years old....
I hope so because that is the only way her "kids" won't be affected by the homosexual lifestyle being considered normal.

truetolife
True dat.

Anyone with a marital legacy like she (is she even a SHE?) suggests would already know the answer to her question and wouldn't need to ask it.

Either that or she has a very shallow view of her relationships and does not consider them any more significant than a relationship with a goat.

Gay /Christian is the ultimate OxyMoron
I was once a lesbian...was actually living with another woman when i began to walk with the Lord. No one pounded on my head about how that relationship was offensive to the Lord. But The Lord HIMSELF taught me and i searched HIS word for myself.
Its pretty clear the things that are out of the Will of God and homosexuality is majorly so.
I have lived in and out of the gay bars and the world they lead you into for a great deal of my life.
Yes Homosexuals are very educated...most are rich and many of them like their lifestyle so much they will spend fortunes to get their way.
But i have seen the grand scope of being gay. And its ugly.
The Blame game is their biggest tool. Mentally and emotionally many of them are crippled. Coming out has crippled more people because then they have to live up to their dirty little secrets.
They thrive on pity. They love to be beheld as mysterious.
I know many people that have turned away from this lifestyle. And if one is in the limelight in any way they get attacked by the strong arm groups. Why? Because then they cant make everyone believe they were born that way! Homosexuality is a choice. So is alcoholism. And drug addiction. And Porn addiction.
Anything that serves the flesh is against God.

God loves the sinner but HE will never ever love the sin they are trapping themselves in with wrong choices.

My Pet Goat's Question
you were wondering how this would effect you...

(from Dennis Prager)
Outside of the privacy of their homes, young girls will be discouraged from imagining one day marrying their prince charming -- to do so would be declared "heterosexist," morally equivalent to racist. Rather, they will be told to imagine a prince or a princess. Schoolbooks will not be allowed to describe marriage in male-female ways alone. Little girls will be asked by other girls and by teachers if they want one day to marry a man or a woman.

The sexual confusion that same-sex marriage will create among young people is not fully measurable. Suffice it to say that, contrary to the sexual know-nothings who believe that sexual orientation is fixed from birth and permanent, the fact is that sexual orientation is more of a continuum that ranges from exclusive heterosexuality to exclusive homosexuality. Much of humanity -- especially females -- can enjoy homosexual sex. It is up to society to channel polymorphous human sexuality into an exclusively heterosexual direction -- until now, accomplished through marriage. But that of course is "heterosexism," a bigoted preference for man-woman erotic love, and therefore to be extirpated from society.


My Pet Goat's Questioon...
continued (from Prager)

Any advocacy of man-woman marriage alone will be regarded morally as hate speech, and shortly thereafter it will be deemed so in law.

Companies that advertise engagement rings will have to show a man putting a ring on a man's finger -- if they show only women fingers, they will be boycotted just as a company having racist ads would be now.
Films that only show man-woman married couples will be regarded as antisocial and as morally irresponsible as films that show people smoking have become.
Traditional Jews and Christians -- i.e. those who believe in a divine scripture -- will be marginalized. Already Catholic groups in Massachusetts have abandoned adoption work since they will only allow a child to be adopted by a married couple as the Bible defines it -- a man and a woman.
Anyone who advocates marriage between a man and a woman will be morally regarded the same as racist. And soon it will be a hate crime.
Indeed -- and this is the ultimate goal of many of the same-sex marriage activists -- the terms "male" and "female," "man" and "woman" will gradually lose their significance. They already are. On the intellectual and cultural left, "male" and "female" are deemed social constructs that have little meaning. That is why same-sex marriage advocates argue that children have no need for both a mother and a father -- the sexes are interchangeable. Whatever a father can do a second mother can do. Whatever a mother can do, a second father can do. Genitalia are the only real differences between the sexes, and even they can be switched at will.

My Pet Goat's Question...
continued (from Prager)

And what will happen after divorce -- which presumably will occur at the same rates as heterosexual divorce? A boy raised by two lesbian mothers who divorce and remarry will then have four mothers and no father.
We have entered something beyond Huxley's "Brave New World." All thanks to the hubris of four individuals. But such hubris never goes unanswered. Our children and their children will pay the price.

these past several comments
have been very enlightening indeed. And terrifying. Don't forget. ALWAYS the homosexuals will be made to look like loving, normal people who just want what everyone else (heterosexuals) have. Or they will point to the divorce rate of heterosexuals and say that hmosexual marriage couldn't be any worse. But yes, we will all pay a very big price for this transgression of God's commands. A very great saint relays the words of our Lord to her: Saint Catherine of Siena, a religious mystic of the 14th century, relays words of Our Lord Jesus Christ about the vice against nature, which contaminated part of the clergy in her time. Referring to sacred ministers, He says: “They not only fail from resisting this frailty [of fallen human nature] … but do even worse as they commit the cursed sin against nature. Like the blind and stupid, having dimmed the light of their understanding, they do not recognize the disease and misery in which they find themselves. For this not only causes Me nausea, but displeases even the demons themselves, whom these miserable creatures have chosen as their lords. For Me, this sin against nature is so abominable that, for it alone, five cities were submersed, by virtue of the judgment of My Divine Justice, which could no longer bear them…. It is disagreeable to the demons, not because evil displeases them and they find pleasure in good, but because their nature is angelic and thus is repulsed upon seeing such an enormous sin being committed. It is true that it is the demon who hits the sinner with the poisoned arrow of lust, but when a man carries out such a sinful act, the demon leaves.” (St. Catherine of Siena, El diálogo, in Obras de Santa Catarina de Siena (Madrid: BAC, 1991), p. 292)

even demons flee
from the sin of homosexuality. Homosexuals beware. You were NOT born that way. MANY have been helped through organizations such as COURAGE and yes, homosexuality is still considered a mental illness in my abnormal psychology books before the American Psychological Association was forced to remove it.

Stu, you are trying too, too hard
Subject: Feel better?
Do you all feel better now you've got all that pent-up homophobia out of the system? Now how about we stop and rationally look at things. Homosexual people are identical to everyone else except for the sexual attraction they feel.
_____________________________

1. There is no homophobia in opposing the destruction of the institutions that this greatest of nations was founded and developed on, something that homos need in order to gain acceptance. BUT THERE IS HOMOSEXUAL-DISEASE-PRODUCTION-AND-SPREADINGPHOBIA, THERE IS HOMOSEXUAL-PROSELYTIZING-OF-CHILDRENPHOBIA, THERE IS HOMOSEXUAL-PUBLIC-FLAUNTING-OF-HOMO-PERVERSIONSPHOBIA, THERE IS HOMOSEXUAL-CONSTANT-WHINING-FOR-SPECIAL-RIGHTSPHOBIA.

2. That little difference between homos and normal people, the 'sexual' attraction, is just enough to produce and spread disease and that is entirely too much. That disqualifies them from getting acceptance for their sickness.

Scorp, we apologize
Subject: Or Wildly Outrageous "Facts"
"95% of gay men have been sexually violated in their youth."

Really?

Where's Luis? He'll be here soon with more "facts" provided by the unbiased "Family" Research Council and Heritage Foundation (where he works).
______________________________

Here we are, homo: Homosexuals are sterile, homosexuality is sterile, and that is all you need to know about the validity of homosexuality. That, and the disease production and spreading by homos.

Luis, Shill for the AFA and the FRC and proud of it.

We apologize for not being here more consistently to whack around the masochistic resident Townhall homos, but we have been very busy with our projects stopping the homosexual problem in other areas. Hang on, the Best is yet to come.

It's OK to have dinner with sinners!
I am OK with Bill Hybels sitting down to dinner with these activists. It does not mean that he supports their behavior or their cause.

Jesus sat down to eat with all kinds of sinners. He even went to their houses to eat.
He stated that the physician needs to be with the sick. He never stated that he approved of their sin. So to say that it is unbiblical to do so is not the truth.

You cannot reach the lost by distancing yourself from them as this article is suggesting.

Sin is sin. The Lord requests us to hate the sin, but to love the sinner.




To Truetolife
"Homosexuals beware. You were NOT born that way. MANY have been helped through organizations such as COURAGE and yes, homosexuality is still considered a mental illness in my abnormal psychology books before the American Psychological Association was forced to remove it."

Says who? You? Please present your credentials doctor.

Luis the Shill for the FRC Writes:
"We apologize for not being here more consistently to whack around the masochistic resident Townhall homos, but we have been very busy with our projects stopping the homosexual problem in other areas. Hang on, the Best is yet to come."

Nah, your hate-filled evil soul always shows up like the Devil himself. Always...like clockwork. So what new evidence does the "Family" Research Council or Hertiage Foundation command you spew this week?

SkorpioG
Just remember. Even the devils flee from homosexual acts. God will not be mocked.

Where Is the Answer!?!?
“During the next ten years, I predict that gays will attempt to invade the conventional, Bible believing church.”
(I could not include the actual Bible verses, because the text would be too long.)
Fear or Faith? II Timothy 1:7
God’s Words about the World: I John 2:15-17
What Defines “Winning?” Mark 8:36
God’s Instruction for Conduct: Romans 12:1-2
God’s Word about this Battle for Right Conduct: II Corinthians 10:3-6 and Ephesians 6:11-13
God’s Promise to His Children: John 16:33
Who’s the Guilty Party? Romans 3:23
How is this Sin Paid For? Romans 6:23a
Plan to Just Live a ‘Good’ Life? Isaiah 64:6
Does God Care? John 3:16-21and Romans 6:23b and Ephesians 2:8-9
How Can We Be Saved? Romans 3:21-25a (In other words, Jesus died on the cross for our sins, so we don’t have to pay for our sins through eternal death ourselves. We can accept this gift of His payment for our sins through faith OR we can reject it. The choice is ours. Faith ultimately means belief which results in obedience and a changed life.)
What Happens in the End? Philippians 2:9-11
What Are We to Do As Christians? II Chronicles 7:14 and Matthew 28: 19-20
Who Gets All the Credit? Proverbs 21:31
DO YOU WANT TO LEAVE THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE FOREVER?!?! This website will have all the answers you are searching for. Please do not delay. You’re life matters!! http://www.exodus.to/

Jackson is a liar
The members of Soulforce and the Black Justice Coalition put out INVITATIONS for Bishop Long and Jackson to meet at a picnic. Members of Soulforce brought their children and were prepared for their families to meet and be seen for what they are. Members of society, committed to their loved ones and communities.

But Jackson decided to turn their efforts into 'attacks', 'death threates', and 'forcing their doctrine' on him.
He misrepresented the occasion and how he was spoken to.

The typical poster here who too obviously KNOWS NOTHING about homosexuality or care to examine how it's represented in public media by TH and others clearly don't understand the gravity of what is happening.
There is much more here than 'disagreeing' outside of these message boards.
When a young teen murders another over being gay, THAT is cause for gay people to work hard to get the truth out.
When a gay soldier's courage and sacrifice goes unremarked, THAT is an egregious ommission that contributes to prejudice that gay people dont' care about their country.
When it's IMPOSSIBLE for a gay person to tell others they do not choose it, and the opposition insists they do as another way to deny the equal possibility and good potential in that gay person, it is most definitely NOT disagreement.
It is a not too subtle demonstration of something worse than hatred.

identity is powerful
we can identify as many things at once, depending on our culture, religion or political and family affiliations.
We develop many over time.
Those of you who identify as conservative, or Christian would be offended at the idea or coerced prospect that YOU could and should give up those things.
Because religious and political affiliations are what the bloodiest wars have been fought over.
Now so many of you have DECIDED that being gay is as easily denied or renounced as one's political swerve or religion.
Denying too arrogantly that SEXUAL ORIENTATION isn't such a thing at all.
Yours OR that of a gay person. Yet, the insistence that gay people can and should renounce their orientation is preferable.
Well, it's only PREFERABLE to whom?
Look whose decided.
How arrogant, what arrogant assumptions regarding what gay people are, should do and could do.

This isn't disagreement. You want a person to give up a CORE element of their personhood equal to the core personhood of YOUR heterosexuality.
And only have the power to coerce and threaten gay people because of majority, not being RIGHT.
But you don't CARE about being right, just being stronger.
Every person here that keeps asserting that a gay person chooses to be gay, AND/Or should choose a celibate life to be happy....is only thinking of THEMSELVES.
Jackson is willing to bear false witness to make a gentle group of gay people and their children into a violent and threatening mob.
And you BUY it.
Well, look at how Germans were so easily convinced to turn on their Jewish, gay or other arbitrarily undesirable neighbors.
I don't exaggerate. Some of you have that weak mindset, you'd believe anything if it gives you an easy scapegoat.
Jackson incites the mob mentality in you, not disagreement. And because he WANTS you scared of gay people.
And it worked, didn't it?
And don't even question why.

God's commands
will ALWAYS trump man's weak will.

truetolife
apparently YOU are a very weak example of someone who preaches about judgement and retribution from God, while your little ol mortal self has benefitted from the courage of human beings to order our lives beyond what your simple mind won't comprehend.
You just remember, that one's genetic make up has been no protection from the brutality of men's prejudices. You as a woman, with several daughters would be the property of your husbands, would have no political voice, nor self determination if MEN still believed the way you assert YOU believe.
Why DO you argue that gay people choose to be gay?
Because your intellectual cowardice and selective religious conviction makes it easier for you to rationalize it in your head, to absolve your from REALLY treating your neighbor as you'd want to be treated that's why.
So that you can ignore that gay people too have been kinder to YOU than you are willing to be to THEM.
Meanwhile you benefit from the Constitution and Bill of Rights, but would withold those same protections from gay people who earned it, fought for it, deserve it as citizens the same way YOU do.
Men's laws shelter you, and protect you.
I already said, one of our greatest gifts, is EMPATHY.
It's a commandment of Christ because it anticipates and settles so many of our most difficult ethical dilemmas.
I could NEVER get you to deal with that on the most basic level.
Easy to know why.
You really think you are to be trusted, just because you wear your piety on your sleeve?
You should go unchallenged, even as you challenge a gay person's identity and experience and sincerity?

truetolife, that makes YOU more of a threat then you are taught and believe gay people are.
You have the mob mentality. Plain as day.
And mobs are a collective of cowards, weak and dangerous.


always remember
to love the sinner but to hate the abominable sin of homosexual behavior (a chosen lifestyle). A behavior that even the demons flee from. Anyone who purports to "help" homosexuals by endorsing their lifestyle is a liar and a coward. Mores come and go in society but the Christian values of admonishing sin stays static. It is here forever. Christianity is not akin to being a doormat. We are soldiers for Christ and we fight the good fight. Love the sinner but never, EVER the sin.

What Is It With These People?
Do they really expect churches to change their dogma? I mean, pig farmers are not picketing mosques demanding that pork be declared clean.

dbz77
Excellent point! Many atheists and homosexuals forget that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. His commands never go out of style nor are they subject to the whims and sins of mankind. Sinners come and go and receive their just rewards. God is the same Just Judge and always offers sinners a way out when they are still free to choose (while they breathe). After that, they have chosen their own afterlife.
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