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Tuesday, October 23, 2007
Harry R. Jackson, Jr. :: Townhall.com Columnist
Time to End ENDA
by Harry R. Jackson, Jr.
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Have you ever had a chronic injury that you just could not shake? As a sophomore in high school, I was fortunate enough to make the first string on my high school football team. After a few great games, I received a painful helmet blow to the thigh that caused me to hobble for months. I never thought the injury would go away permanently. I was fine one week and then hurting again the next. It obviously caused the quality of my play to also rise and fall with the pain. Thankfully, I eventually made it through that season and went on to have several outstanding years of competition. I am reminded of that chronic injury as I look at the national attempts to redefine the nature of the American civil rights movement.

Let me explain. I am convinced that the black community is still in need of reviving and upgrading the civil rights movement. Like Bill Cosby, I believe that family restoration is at the heart of the problems that the black community faces. Yet there seems to be a growing attempt by the gay community to hijack the civil rights movement. There has been an attempt to mask personal, lifestyle preference as a civil rights issue. In addition, the radical gay movement seems to be seeking to silence the Church. In my world, it seems that this on–going attempt to hijack the civil rights movement and attack the Church is like my youthful football injury. This assault on our culture seems like it will never go away.

Last Friday, I hosted a press conference in Washington, D.C. on behalf of the High Impact Leadership Coalition, aimed at opposing HR 3685- The Employment Non-Discrimination Act also known as ENDA. The press conference was attended by The Family Research Council, Exodus International, the Let Freedom Ring Foundation, and Vision America.

We represented a multicultural, multi-racial group of Christians who believe that our legislators have started down a dangerous direction with this law and the Hate Crimes legislation which was recently passed by the Senate (S1105). We began the press conference by expressing our thankfulness that the president pledged to veto this legislation. The remainder of this article will outline some of the most salient points from our press conference.

Whenever anyone uses the term “discrimination,” it brings a bad taste to our mouths. Yet in recent years, a strange reversal has taken place - aggressive gay activists have become involved in persecuting the Church. In the name of liberty, they are infringing on the liberties of others. Unfortunately in this sound bite generation, there is often not enough time for us to fully explain our positions.

Several African-American spokespersons addressed the media at the press conference in order to refute the idea that all black community activists are in favor of ENDA. It is obvious that the black community is no longer a monolith. One size does not fit all. Some of the most well-known black civil rights organizations have sold out the black community by supporting such legislation. We declared that although gay activists are seeking to hide behind the race issue, this legislation affects every American – black or white.

Let me give you a list of five of the most important reasons we are against this legislation.

1. ENDA would overturn the historical basis of protected class status by adding “actual or perceived sexual orientation.” While every other federally-protected class embodies three standards: an obvious, immutable characteristic; a history of discrimination evidenced by economic disenfranchisement; and political powerlessness, “sexual orientation” falls under none of these criteria. It is an insult to African Americans to grant special protections for “sexual orientation.”

2. ENDA expands civil rights protections on the vague basis of perception. An employee or potential employee could sue an employer for his or her perception of their sexual orientation. Yet unlike the currently-protected classes of race, age, and gender in employment, sexual orientation is not scientifically verifiable. It is an offense to African Americans to equate “sexual orientation” with skin color.

3. ENDA infringes on the religious liberties of our parishioners. As shepherds of our flock, we cannot stand by while our parishioners are forced to ignore their convictions when they leave church on Sunday. ENDA requires people of faith to lay down their religious freedom at the office door. This opposes our beliefs and it is not practical – faith cannot be segmented into only one part our lives.

4. ENDA puts the integrity of our ministries in jeopardy. Many African-American churches run outreach ministries separate from the church to care for our communities. My local church runs a daycare which cares for over 200 children daily and the potential to serve another 100+ children in extended care for those who are in school. ENDA provides unclear protection for schools, while leaving ministries such as childcare, after school programs, and food and clothing banks vulnerable to ENDA mandates.

5. ENDA is a direct attack on our freedom of religion guaranteed in the First Amendment. The Free Exercise Clause in the First Amendment grants all Americans the freedom to practice their faith. ENDA stands in direct opposition to this liberty and must be rejected as a result.

ENDA will be voted on this coming week. Therefore, I want to encourage everyone reading this article to send it to at least five additional people. Second, I recommend that every reader contacts their congressional representatives. Third, we need to contact the President’s office in order to encourage him veto both the Hate Crimes (S 1105) and ENDA (HR 3685) legislations, if passed.

Let’s make up our minds to win the culture war.

I, for one, am counting on you!

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About The Author

Bishop Harry Jackson is chairman of the High Impact Leadership Coalition and senior pastor of Hope Christian Church in Beltsville, MD, and co-authored, Personal Faith, Public Policy [FrontLine; March 2008] with Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council.

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Time to end it
Just another person who thinks that people choose to be gay/lesbian. Townhall is full of them.

Mr. Jackson chose his religon
Mr. Jackson writes, "The Free Exercise Clause in the First Amendment grants all Americans the freedom to practice their faith. ENDA stands in direct opposition to this liberty and must be rejected as a result.

ENDA will be voted on this coming week. Therefore, I want to encourage everyone reading this article to send it to at least five additional people. Second, I recommend that every reader contacts their congressional representatives. Third, we need to contact the President’s office in order to encourage him veto both the Hate Crimes (S 1105) and ENDA (HR 3685) legislations, if passed.

Let’s make up our minds to win the culture war.

I, for one, am counting on you!"

Well, then why we repeal all the hate crime legislation that has been passed by Congress. I am repeating myself when I say that I did not chose my sexuality.

Does anyone know Dick Buttons, the famous ice skater, who works as an announcer? In the 1970s in New York City he was severely beaten by a gang of thugs who though he was gay.

Religiously justified bigotry
If your religion requires that you fire an employee because she's gay, or because you THINK he's gay, then you are not free to practice that religion, any more than you are free to beat your wife because your religion tells you that's okay... or any more than you are free to bomb a building because your religion tells you you should. Does no one on the right see the correlation, there?

A person's sexual orientation has nothing to do with his ability to do a job. The fact that we even have to legislate this is pretty sad.

Sorry buddy, but the "freedom of religion" thing stops when you violate someone else's rights. If you don't get that, well, I guess that's what makes you a Republican. Y'all need to leave gay people alone - they're not going back into the closet, I promise.

Where are Jackson's supporters?
By now I thought they would be swarming all over this article. Since Bush has declared that he will veto the legislation and Congress doesn't have the votes to override his veto, all this is just a vain exercise.

Do we really want to take away the rights of Fred Phelps to spread his ministry?

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Liberal Nonsense
Should a Day Care be forced to hire a Pedophile? Should PETA be forced to hire Meat Eaters? Should The Sierra Club be forced to hire Lumberjacks? Keep the government out of it! Let businesses fail or succeed on their performance. If a business want to cater to ONLY select types of people, SO WHAT! Open a similar business that caters to EVERYONE ELSE! This ‘WAAA! I’m a Victim! WAAA! The Government OWES ME! WAAA! I DESERVE special treatment because I’m a minority!” HAS TO END!

Georgetwin
Georgetwin writes, "Should a Day Care be forced to hire a Pedophile? Should PETA be forced to hire Meat Eaters? Should The Sierra Club be forced to hire Lumberjacks? Keep the government out of it! Let businesses fail or succeed on their performance. If a business want to cater to ONLY select types of people, SO WHAT! Open a similar business that caters to EVERYONE ELSE! This ‘WAAA! I’m a Victim! WAAA! The Government OWES ME! WAAA! I DESERVE special treatment because I’m a minority!” HAS TO END!"

Don't worry Bush has vowed to veto the legislation. Are you in favor of repealing all Federal hate crimes legislation?

swampfox
You being a homosexual, whether a choice or not, is besides the point.

You are a sexual deviant. How is that a protected status?

And yes, I would do away with all hate crimes legislation. It tantamount to punishing someone for their thoughts, not their deeds.

pots and kettles
"Yet unlike the currently-protected classes of race, age, and gender in employment, sexual orientation is not scientifically verifiable."

The sad truth of it all is that "race" isn't, either.

Fixing a non problem
The first question we need to ask -- where is the evidence that discrimination based on sexual orientation is systemic and widespread in the workplace, such that we need the government to impose a new law on the workplace? In the 1950s discrimination against African Americans was oh so very systemic and widespread that you had to ignore the white sheets, nooses, and burning crosses to miss it. Where is the equivalent???

One blogger mentioned one incident from the 1970s. This is it???? Even the shepperd(?) case turned out to be non-sexual orientation.

This group of people boast about their wealth and buying power, and their influence. You can't have it both ways. Do a side by side comparison of the lives of African Americans a generation ago with the special cruises and plush vacations catering to the new victim group of today. How does it look to you?

Can you say "power grab"?????


To dave
Dave writes. "You being a homosexual, whether a choice or not, is besides the point. You are a sexual deviant. How is that a protected status?"

How nice of you to clear the air. Being gay/lesbian is not a protected status.

Since you think a homosexual is a sexual deviant, what do you think we should do with all gays/lesbians?

The American Medical community does not list being homosexual as a sexual disorder. It is just as normal as you being heterosexual, but you are in the majority.

Moot point
As I have said, Bush is going to veto the legislation regardless whether it passes or not. But, I think, it something that we all need to think about. I remember the case of James Byrd in Texas. He was dragged behind a pickup truck. There was no hate crimes legislation in force. But the culprits got what they deserved.


What's really going on!
Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals and Transgenders are in all facets of the workplace environment. Living in the Washington Metropolitan Area I see quite a bit of them in my community and at my workplace. I have never seen a GLBT denied a position on the basis of their sexuality, in fact I have yet to be interviewed by someone who has asked me about my sexual preference. Yet I have seen African Americans denied positions on the bases of their skin color which is evident since your skin color is easily seen. I have witnessed individuals asked not to speak about their religious beliefs in the workplace or asked to take take religious propaganda because it may offend someone. It's time for those of us who know the truth to take action! I agree with Bishop Jackson, "I recommend that every reader contacts their congressional representatives. Third, we need to contact the President’s office in order to encourage him veto both the Hate Crimes (S 1105) and ENDA (HR 3685) legislations, if passed."

swampfox
You write :"Since you think a homosexual is a sexual deviant, what do you think we should do with all gays/lesbians?"

Who said anything needs to be done with homosexuals. You argue from the point that if someone doesn't accept your sexual deviancy, then that person is a Nazi and wants to put you in an oven. Sorry to disappoint you, but there is middle ground. How about you don't put your sexual deviancy in me and my family's face? And you don't get to create a perverted form of family by getting married and bring children into that marriage.

---------------------

As for:
"The American Medical community does not list being homosexual as a sexual disorder. It is just as normal as you being heterosexual, but you are in the majority."

The AMA is as much a polical organization as anything else. They can't have an agenda?

Let's use common sense. Sex is very enjoyable. Any two adults should have as much sex as they want, just for the sheer joy of it.

However, the primary purpose of sex is procreation. How many children can two men have playing hide the salami with each other? If a sexual practice does not have the ability to produce children, it is by definition deviant. And yes, oral sex is deviant even with heteros.

But, while I make judgements, I'm not condemning it or you. By all means, be homosexual, but I'm not going to accept it as normal.

Swampfox
Okay, I will not refuse to allow you to work for me because you are gay and or lesbian or whatever your preference is. I'm an evangelical Christian, and while I don't agree with what you do, I understand that IF you have the ability to do the job I need done, and as long as it doesn't put my business in jepordy (sorry, not going to hire someone with a child molestation record to work in the local childcare center -- no matter how much they complain -- that' s called common sense not discrimination) then you have got the job. However, I will ask you to tolerate the fact that I may have a cross on my table and one of my favorite bible verses posted on the walls. If you don't like them posted there...work somewhere else, it IS my business -- not yours. However as long as I don't have to deal with you bringing your sex life to the office (I would say this whether or not you are straight and or gay)then if you can do the work and the best qualified for the job you are going to be hired.
So what is your beef with evangelical Christians again?

One-Sided Web Site
The reason that Jackson is given space to spout off his non-Christian-like bigotry is that Townhall.com doesn't have the guts to publish an OpEd piece from anyone unless it is from a right-winger hate group. So, if anyone is expecting to read two sides of the coin, then this is the last place to read.

If Townhall.com really wanted to present subjects in the full light of day, I would have been given a chance to post my OpEd pieces here. But, just like the line from "A Few Good Men" says, "They can't handle the truth."

I'm just happy to know that the true God will show these poor souls that He created all of us equally and He loves all of us. They will find that out either in this life or afterwards. Jesus never hated anyone. Too bad these so-called Christians never learned that.

James Byrd
was not a homosexual. He was killed because he was black. That was the whole point of this article.

And yes, his killers got what they deserved and it was Bush, governor at the time who refused to give them clemency.

But that didn't stop the NAACP from trying to connect Bush to the killers as being responsible for them.

James Byrd
was not a homosexual. He was killed because he was black. That was the whole point of this article.

And yes, his killers got what they deserved and it was Bush, governor at the time who refused to give them clemency.

But that didn't stop the NAACP from trying to connect Bush to the killers as being responsible for them.

AtlWriter
I love the way people try to twist Christianity.

Yes, Jesus loved. But he didn't accept sin. He saved the adultress from being stoned, but he also told her to sin no more.

I love my children, but will punish them if they misbehave. Same will happen with Judgement Day. God may love us, but do you think you will escape the punishment you deserve?

Thought
Adultery is a choice.
Murder is a choice.
Getting a tattoo is a choice.
Having an abortion is a choice.
Getting a divorce is a choice.
Voting Democrat or Republican is a choice.
Being a Christian of one stripe or another is a choice.
Being homosexual is NOT a choice!

Being bound is not a choice…

‘Just another person who thinks that people choose to be gay/lesbian. TH is full of them.’ –TH comment referring to Mr. Jackson and others who believe the Bible


When they say they have no choice they speak truth because they are slaves to their sin. According to the Bible we are born into the cruel slavery of sin; we are bound with no hope of escape. In the gospel the Son of David has come and broken the power of sin and death, having become a sacrifice and raised up in power and glory for all who repent and believe the good news. Except for unbelief there is no sin which places us outside the grace of God in Christ Jesus. He has invited all men to come to Him for new life and liberty from captivity.

Men are so deceived in their sin that they would silence the only message of hope. A free church guaranteed in the first amendment is now threatened by the secularists using the power of government to undermine the foundations of government.

The Founders understood the difference between the eternal wisdom of God and the wisdom of men. One resulted in the French Revolution and the guillotine the other gave us the American Revolution and the birth of self governing men under the freedom of law derived from New Covenant principles. Today’s darwinism is a rehash of the wisdom of the world dressed up as science. All paths lead to tyranny that start from the wisdom of men.

To equate the normalization of sexual perversion with civil rights is a denial of the redemption purchased by Jesus Christ with His own blood. The American church will lose its dross under the fire of persecution.

Continued on blog…

To Dave
Dave,
If homosexuality is a sin, as you say, then are you advocating that people who sin should be fired from their job, regardless of their performance? What an interesting concept. We can have employers fire people who commit adultery. It doesn’t affect their work performance, but what the heck, they’re a sinner. If that took place, most of Congress would be out of a job. Jesus forgave the adulteress, but he didn’t advocate having her fired from her job. If you tell a lie, even if it isn’t at work, we should be able to fire that person because it is against our religious beliefs. Right? Give grief to your parents and you can no longer put a roof over your head or buy food. Use the Lord’s name in vain and you will not ever work again.

The point to all of this is to ensure that any person who commits any sin is not judged by that sin on the job, as long as that sin does not affect their performance on that job. That is all that ENDA is trying to do. People don’t like me on my job because some think I’m a “sinner,” but I have been working for the same company for 18 years, and I have a high performance record. What Congress is trying to do is to ensure ALL Americans are just judged by their performance and not what they may do in the bedroom. If we started firing people for committing any sin, than ask yourself this, “Would you still have a job?”

To all
ValiantforTruth writes, "To equate the normalization of sexual perversion with civil rights is a denial of the redemption purchased by Jesus Christ with His own blood. The American church will lose its dross under the fire of persecution." ...............and, so all the mainline protestant churches that are accepting gays and lesbians are wrong. And, only your interpretation of "The Bible" is correct? We should just forget what some of the best educated have to say about homosexuality (American Medical Community).

I repeat:
Adultery is a choice.
Murder is a choice.
Getting a tattoo is a choice.
Having an abortion is a choice.
Getting a divorce is a choice.
Voting Democrat or Republican is a choice.
Being a Christian of one stripe or another is a choice.
Being homosexual is NOT a choice!


Whatever happened to,
Whatever happened to Ted Haggard? Isn't he saying that he, like Senator Larry Craig, is 100% heterosexual.

Criteria
To those who support ENDA, I would like to ask a question. As we are all painfully aware, humans discriminate against one another for a huge variety of reasons. People find all sorts of things to dislike -- body weight, style of speech, dress, or any of a thousand other reasons.

The question is, what do you believe is appropriate criteria for establishing a special protected class under the Civil Rights statutes? What type and quantity of discrimination must be taking place, for example? And what evidence must be required to back up your criteria?

Just wondering.


Swampfox says...
"Being homosexual is NOT a choice!"

Fine. Be a homosexual; just don't engage in homosexual sex. THAT's the choice.

And don't act like your behavior should give you the same civil rights status afforded to blacks.

I don't care what you do in private, but if you make it public, I reserve the right to repudiate you. Please know that I fully expect you to treat me the same way if I go around bragging about how many babes I laid last week. Immoral behavior is the issue here.

Being homosexual may not be a choice.
ACTING homosexual is a choice; I advise you to stop it.


Swampfox
Why haven't you responded to me? Is it because I'm not living up to your stereotype? Please let me know what you think of my post or are you intentionally ignoring me because I am proving your thesis wrong (aka -- homosexuals deserve more rights than heterosexuals). Point blank if your work ethic cannot stand up in the work place I could care less whether you scr*w a hippo -- you still aren't going to work for me. Again, I think that you could be making better life choices for yourself, but as long as they don't interfere with your work ethic...I'm not going to refuse to employ you.

To Ekstasis
If I'm not mistaken, we already have employment protection for race, creed, color, religion and veteran's status. From my perspective, those people are a "special protected class," even though I'm a veteran and have a religious belief. It seems we have already gone down that path to determine who we can discriminate against and who we cannot. Not only will ENDA add sexual orientation, but gender, disability and hopefully gender identity. It isn't "special" if you are only brought up to the same level as everyone else.

Of course, the alternative would be to eliminate employment protection for everyone, so people will be equal, but at the other end of the spectrum. I don't think that would fly. Let me know if you would like to advocate for that. You would be on your own it you took that direction.

Swampfox
OF COURSE NOT! I have no problem with skin color, orientation or anything else. There will ALWAYS BE morons who hate for no apparent reason. They will ALWAYS be rejected by Fair-Minded Americans. Most of Phelps group is family and they are so marginalized as to be non-existent. Most larger cities in America have a thriving Gay Community. I don't see where discrimination is a PROBLEM for gays!

All feelings no facts
The position for sexual orientation as a civil-right under pinned by the assertion that sexual preference is genetically encoded at the time of conception, the same way eye color and skin color all are–you are what you were born to be based largely upon your inherent genetic make-up. If sexual orientation is based upon the genetic encoding; then, even if one doesn’t want to be LGBT, there is no choice: one’s genetic makeup can never be truly altered or changed, only suppressed or perhaps hidden.

Conversely, if one’s sexual orientation is a matter of personal preference, then it is merely a life-style choice–like one’s choice of a personal wardrobe one might choose over the selections someone else would make.

There are a few social problems with a theory that sexual orientation is genetic.

1st, science has yet to identify a set genes governing sexual orientation or predispositions. If there are no LGBT genes in a person’s RNA/DNA makeup then the selected sexual orientation is a matter of individual choice based on psychological preferences not a physiological requirement.

If sexual orientation was a genetically based predisposition–physiological and not a psychological, then the same gene(s) that control and mandate LGBT sexual attractions would also be responsible for the sexual orientation that some few individuals demonstrate towards pre-adolescent children, various barn-yard animals, the sexual fascinations associated with corpses, and every other sexual orientation. In fact ALL sexual orientations, regardless of their basis, would have to be accepted as being equally valid–after all societal recognition of one sexual orientation above another would be . . . discriminatory wouldn’t it?

One Question
I am curious when the author says that sexual orientation is not identifiable scientifically. Does he mean you can test scientifically for "blackness"? Really? Is a child of a black and a white parent black? What about a child 1/4, 1/16, or 1/32 black? Are they "scientifically" black? Is there some African-American Nuremburg laws that define how much black blood one needs to be black? Is he claiming that, the way the Nazis claimed to know "Jew blood", we can see "black blood"? Or is it just black skin that makes one black? If so, are some Indians black, and very fair skinned children of black parents white? No? Then how do we "scientifically" define someone as black?

Continued...

Continuing...
Sorry, but black is also a social construct. Yes, there is a racial group, but it is far from "scientific" to define any single individual's membership. For example, is a child half-white and half black, black or white? Why is any answer "scientific"? Is not the decision that he is black just a vestige of old racist beliefs, reinforced by the racial identity politicians' needs for a larger constituency? Why is he not white? How about a child 1/4 black, 1/4 white and 1/2 asian, how is he defined? Why does "black" seem to genetically trump any other group? Is it not because it the preferred victim class and thus most beneficial to the one seeking racial set asides? And also most beneficial to the racial identity politicians who need the largest number of voters they can find?

And once we throw in the absurdity of "hispanic" as a race, we enter the truly futile world. That a race is somehow tied to the location of one's birth, or one's language or one's parents' languages, is absurd. Even more absurd is that Spanish speakers are pretty much automatically hispanic, unless they come from Spain. That is even more bizarre. That one can join a race by being born south of the Rio Grande makes no sense to anyone but a government bureaucrat.

Let's face it, our current views of "race" are as artificial, and non-scientific, as the protected class of sexual identity that the author decries.

Protected classes
AtlWriter,

That is my point, the current protected classes suffered huge discrimination in the past -- African Americans for example, and Catholics during the 19th century. The sort of discrimination and oppression we cannot even conceive of today, in terms of nature and magnitude. I am not an attorney, but I view Veterans differently -- we primarily give them preference due to their wonderful service to our nation, not due to discrimination.

So again, what is the criteria for adding to the list? Or should we just add groups "indiscriminately" (no pun intended) based on no objective criteria? Congress can simply stop all of its other business and just begin adding all sorts of groups and behaviors so that we are all "specially protected" by the law. Everyone can get in the act, why not?

Is this any way to run a democracy???

To Georgetwin
I live in Georgia. The 2000 Census showed that there are gay people in all 159 counties this state has. They are all over this country, in every state. Gay people don't just live in big cities. In 31 states, it is still ok to fire a person for being gay. In 39 states, it's ok to fire a person for being a transgender person. Discrimination happens daily. Daily.

To Phileo
Phileo writes, "Being homosexual may not be a choice. ACTING homosexual is a choice; I advise you to stop it."

Phileo, I am an Episcopalian. Can someone answer, why is there so much hate directed at homosexuals?

To explain
To explain: I believe sexual identity is not a good category either as it is not as black and white as either side would like it to be.

Yes, most people are heterosexual and exclusively so for their lives. And there are some who are homosexual for their lives, with no heterosexual experiences or longings.

But then there is a group which fist in the spectrum in between. Prisoners who are "situationally homosexual", those who try to be heterosexual while having homosexual leanings, those who discover their homosexuality later in life, those who renounce their homosexuality later in life, those who practice both sexual identities at various times, or at the same time...

If the world is "gay, straight, bi", where do all of these fit? Sorry, but he clean categories are nice for the quota mongers, the civil rights attorneys looking for a quick buck, and politicians pandering for votes, but they are mostly meaningless in real life.

So, like the artificial racial categories created to help form pressure groups, in many ways the whole LGBT (and whatever letters have been added since last I looked) groups are often drawing very artificial lines to try to form a pressure group as well.

It is as if someone said the world is divided between those who love toast and those who don't. Everyone would see how stupid that would be, but because they have politicians signed on to their cause, we accept such fictitious lines in matters of race or sexual identity.

Tell it, brother!
Jackson tells it like it is. Employers shouldn't have to feel intimidated by buttstabbers.

To Doug
To Doug, "1st, science has yet to identify a set genes governing sexual orientation or predispositions. If there are no LGBT genes in a person’s RNA/DNA makeup then the selected sexual orientation is a matter of individual choice based on psychological preferences not a physiological requirement.

If sexual orientation was a genetically based predisposition–physiological and not a psychological, then the same gene(s) that control and mandate LGBT sexual attractions would also be responsible for the sexual orientation that some few individuals demonstrate towards pre-adolescent children, various barn-yard animals, the sexual fascinations associated with corpses, and every other sexual orientation. In fact ALL sexual orientations, regardless of their basis, would have to be accepted as being equally valid–after all societal recognition of one sexual orientation above another would be . . . discriminatory wouldn’t it?"

And, so you hate homosexual for what reason?

swampfox
It's not hate. It's non-acceptance of your behavior.

Like a previous poster said, you may not have the choice of BEING homosexual, but you have the choice of ACTING homosexual.

Again, you're trying to frame the argument to where homosexuals are either accepted totally or hated totally. I won't allow you to be able to frame the argument so only you can win.

Homosexuality is not normal. I have the freedom to express that thought, and your militant PCism isn't going to stop it.

To all
Dave writes, "Again, you're trying to frame the argument to where homosexuals are either accepted totally or hated totally. I won't allow you to be able to frame the argument so only you can win."

And so, winning is what is all about? What is the logic in God creating a certain percentage of the population homosexual. And, you know as well as me the harassment can start way someone who is gay commits any act.

Swampfox, are you gay? Are you dense?
I think all sex outside of marriage is wrong. If you are engaged in adultery, stop it. If you are engaged fornication, stop it. If you are engaged promiscuity, stop it. If you are engaged in homosexual sex, stop it.

Swampfox's incoherent response:

"I am an Episcopalian. Can someone answer, why is there so much hate directed at homosexuals?"

Huh?? I don't hate anyone engaged in dangerous sexual behavior any more than I hate people who enjoy playing Russian Roulette. You checked your brain at the door, Swampfox; go back and get it.

Let the hate flow
Come on, everyone let the hate flow. Let it out.

andrews writes:
"To explain: I believe sexual identity is not a good category either as it is not as black and white as either side would like it to be."

Neither is black and white.

AtlWriter
Not what I said, I said there are thriving Gay Communities in most larger cities. Obviously there are gay people everywhere. There are certain places I don’t think Gays should work, but there are OBVIOUSLY there are LOTS of places they can work. Why would you want to work for a bigot anyway?

Protected classes
Is this any way to run a democracy??? Must you forget the wonderful words of the Declaration of Independence? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Do we run a democracy by denying some American citizens their "unalienable Rights."

Whether a group has been beaten down for centuries, or just days, does it make it right? The gay community does not equate their struggle with Africian Americans. Is there a time period where we have to endure discrimination before we can be considered equal? I don't see that time period defined in the Declaration of Independence.

If we are all created equal, then why are some people more equal than others? Is that a way to run a democracy.

And, if you are not part of the community who are asking to be equal, why is asking for equality something special? If the shoe was on the other foot, how would you feel? If you cannot, or will not try to see the issue from the "other side," then this conversation is over. We can only educate those who want to be educated. Sorry.

Swampfox, self-loathing is also hatred
The only hate I've observed here is your own self-loathing. When you can't address facts, you play the victim card, "You disagree with me so you must hate me! Oh! Woe is me!"

I love you and I've never met you, but because I won't affirm a belief that you hold dear, you assume I hate you.

What a sad, disgraceful way to live and think...

End Enda
Homosexuality is a perversion. But what two people do in the privacy of their home is none of my business.

But bring your flaming queen self, your transvestite tendencies into the marketplace of the public and you will be shot down. Get it out of our faces. But you won't! You keep trying to stick your lifestyle in our faces!

I don't flaunt my heterosexual tendencies in public. Keep them to yourself.

Enda is just one of many examples of the gay lobby attempting to shove your lifestyle down the throats of people who just don't plain approve of your behavior.

Yes, I said behavior. Your behavior may be taught or learned, but it is still a behavior.

I firmly believe many gays believe in their heart of hearts they were gay from birth.

However, many Christian's believe, even if they don't have the guts to say it, that homosexuality is not just a sin, but is full fledged demon possession. Being given over to the perversion of your flesh. Christians don't say that cause it doesn't sound very loving.

AtlWriter, right on! but...
You quoted the most famous line in the Declaration. Since they were penned, the beauty and symmetry of those words have provided a beacon of hope for people of all races and all nationalities for all time.

Why would you even WANT to try to improve on those profound words? We don't need ENDA.

BTW, for a democracy, you'll need to find another country; we are a representative republic... THANK GOD!!

Phileo
phileo writes, "I think all sex outside of marriage is wrong. If you are engaged in adultery, stop it. If you are engaged fornication, stop it. If you are engaged promiscuity, stop it. If you are engaged in homosexual sex, stop it."

I think we all know where you are coming from. I pray that you get your 72 virgins in heaven.

CAN we get along or not?
Homosexuals/gays are proud to be who/what they are. I get that. I am proud to be who/what I am, that's fair.
My sexually MUST STOP at the office door. If it doesn't, it may be considered to be 'sexual harassment.' You don't think yours should stop at the office door, you say that is discrimination.
If I say, "that guy/girl over there is so fine, s/he has such a nice ----! I want to ----." I can/most likely WILL be charged. If you do the same and anyone says anything about it, you holler discrimination.
The only thing I want to say in all of this: You may NOT be treated BETTER than me. I don't care WHAT you are.
In your post of 3:33, you write that if all sexual orientation is genetic than all are valid. Sure, and pedophiles will STILL go to jail along with some of the other deviants you listed. It is and will remain a crime to engage in sex with minors, animals and corpses.
But, I dare say, you don't WANT sexually to be gene-based. Because that would imply that at some future date, it could be "fixed."

True Colors
Swampfox writes: "I think we all know where you are coming from. I pray that you get your 72 virgins in heaven."

Where's the hate coming from now, Swampfox? lol

Swampfox
why aren't you talking to me? Just curious. I just told you on two separate postings that your sexual orientaion doesn't matter to me as long as you are qualified to do the job...Sorry, is that something that you can't understand? I just want a little recognition an acknowledgement that maybe all of us evangelicals aren't that bad.

To Tish
I think the only evangelical that I don't consider crazy is Billy Graham. Just read some of the stuff that has been posted on this board about gays/lesbian.

By the way, I am taking a nap now
so go ahead, swampfox - call me names. That is always what you do to someone who says things you can't counter/ don't agree with.

you even state - "Come on, everyone let the hate flow. Let it out." We do not hate you, don't you understand? No matter HOW convoluted your arguments get, we don't hate you.

All we want from you is a little self-control. LISTEN to our message. Don't attack us as hate mongers, or worse.

To Phileo
Swampfox writes: "I think we all know where you are coming from. I pray that you get your 72 virgins in heaven."

Phileo writes, "Where's the hate coming from now, Swampfox? lol"

It was an attempt at dry humor. Your fanaticism reminds me of Muslim martyrs that blow themselves up for the cause.

To All
Are any of you aware that there are 14 different chromosome pattersn recognized by the AMA as being sex chromosomes. If someone doesn't have XX or XY, then what would be a same sex relationship and what would be an opposite sex relationship with them? There are people with male exterior features who have XX and people with female exterior features who have XY chromosomes. That means there are happily married couples out there who maybe in a same sex relationship.

In one in 1000 births in this country, and the world, a child is born with ambigous genitalia. What sex are they? Others are born with a mixture of male and female charatistics, so what sex are they? Who can they have a relationship with to qualify as "Opposite Sex?"

God is suppose to be omnipotant, meaning He can do what He wants. If He wants to do a sexual mix and match, why not? He created us. Mother Nature (God) can think beyond binary. Human Nature cannot.

I would like to see how the bigot religious leaders would react if they discovered they were not the sex they present on the outside. 1 in 500, if you look at all the possibilities God has given the human race.

To Michael Brown
Michael Brown writes, "However, many Christian's believe, even if they don't have the guts to say it, that homosexuality is not just a sin, but is full fledged demon possession. Being given over to the perversion of your flesh. Christians don't say that cause it doesn't sound very loving."

True. Just look at all your and their posts.

And, if you will notice most of the hate is directed toward male homosexuals.

Homosexuality
Hey, I'm heterosexual, married to one wife all my life with two kids.

But you know what? I'm not any better than you swampfox. In God's eyes, our own self-righteousness is as filthy rags. In fact, that's why I need a Savior. Someone to save my simple self.

We all do our best to do what's right. Ultimately, there is only One we have to answer too. Which should suggest, IF YOU DON'T KNOW HIM, HE DON'T KNOW YOU!

In short, all of us must examine ourselves, our hearts. Realize that all of us are made in His image. Respect one another, even when we disagree and value the opinions shared here and the opportunity to do so.

To Wellknown
Wellknown writes, "But, I dare say, you don't WANT sexually to be gene-based. Because that would imply that at some future date, it could be "fixed."

What would happen, if it was found to be determined by your genes? My guess is that there would be a lot of abortions. "Fixing" genes is part of science fiction. Everyone wants a perfect child. I hope that live to know exactly what causes one person to be homosexual and another one heterosexual. I am curious person. Just on this board I have been called a deviant, pervert, flaming queen, etc. It is a wonder that gay/lesbian youth don't all just all blow their brains out.

My personal story is that I did threaten suicide and spent 17 days in the psychiatric hospital. I played Russian Roulette with a nine shot 22 revolver for five days. I wasn't man enough to play fairly, I cheated. Right now I am on both Paxil and Wellbutrin.


AtlWriter, thank you; exactly right!
The issue is NOT our genetic or chromosomal makeup; the issue is NOT our predispositions or preferences. The issue is our behavior.

It doesn't matter if your marital relationship may "technically" be abberant; are you faithful to your spouse? Are you honoring God by living a life devoted to your husband or wife, setting an example of fidelity for your children and confining your sexual behavior within the boundaries of marriage? If the answer is yes, good-on-ya!!

If the answer is no, stop it.

I have a question:
WAY BACK in my youth, circa 1940-50, I knew a homosexual couple. Everyone knew, NO ONE said a word. They were 'accepted into the community' principally because while they kept mostly to themselves - as we all did then, they went to church with us, markent and worked next to us.

WHY is there a problem now?

Come on now
You all know that I am gay. Now you know that I tried, but couldn't go through with committing suicide. Why has the posting stopped? Some of you tell me that I choose to be gay. Some say just don't commit a homosexual act. What if I told you that I hate myself so much, I never have committed a homosexual act?

See?
everyone stopped hollering. There really is no hate here. GLBT - you are our family, our friends, our associates.
When you DO HEAR hate, it isn't from us. It is from those I call "AGENDA". They want to have MORE rights than anyone else. They think they are BETTER than everyone else. NOT ALL are from YOUR community - some are the dividers from ours.

Some of us for many reasons
have THOUGHT of suicide. None of us did it. There's a lot of pain when someone thinks of that. I'm sorry for whatever or whoever caused that.
IF you want help, there is help out there.
IF you don't want help, there is nothing anyone can do for you.
YOU have to answer the questions. YOU have to take the steps, whether they be to BE GAY, or not. But, talk to someone. Get some help. PLEASE.

There are few people that have NOT
considered suicide at some time. We didn't do it, why? I can't speak for anyone but myself. I thought of my family.
But, whatever you think, you CAN get help.
YOU must make that decision.
YOU must take the steps.
IF you decide to be gay, then there you go.
IF you decide not to, there you go.
There is help either way. God bless you and help you in this hour of need.

To Well, now
Back in the 40s and 50s, people were more accepting with other's differences. I grew up in the 50s, 60s and 70s. There is one place the problem exists today is that vilifying people is a political ploy, used to bring out the religious right base to vote. Since the party who promotes hate to get votes has been in power for 6 years, those people who hate have been given full rein to spread their lies and hate openly and loudly. They are not being told that spreading hate is not an American value. It's similar when Hitler took over, giving permission to hate anyone who didn't fit their mold.

"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it." - George Santayana - Sadly, a majority of this country either cannot remember the past, or refuse to remember it. Some even revel in their ignorance. There have been a few on this list who fit that category.

To Well, now
I have gotten help. I will have to admit that this board doesn't really help. The depression that I went through was so severe that I lost 20 pounds. I kept the pain of being gay to myself way too long. The suicide attempt was June 6 of this year.

Uh, no that is NOT true
I come from a deeply held Republican stronghold.
No one 'gave me permission to hate.'
Much of the HATE I hear comes from those, like you who say, those in power now (meaning republicans I would guess.) They are also the ones who say, "repeat a big enough lie, often enough and people will believe it."
Sure, there are Rs and Ds who hate. Some hate everyone and everything. I can't help that. I don't even try to understand it. You shouldn't either. That's what some of us mean when we say, "Don't swallow the koolaid."

PS. Will you try Swamp. Remember, it's what YOU WANT. NOT what they want.

Maybe you just need a break.
Take a mini vacation or something. Have some FUN and quit worrying what other people think. Go for a walk in the woods, or on the beach or whatever you have.
I'll pray for you.

Well, now
You appear to be a very sensible person. I wish others were. I just don't want to bury any more of my friends because they lost all hope after losing their job because of discrimination. It makes the need to pass ENDA a ultimate necessity.

NO it doesn't.
People lose their jobs every day. Cutbacks, lay offs. Whatever.
Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back in the fight.
You can only help your friends so far. Mostly, we HAVE TO HELP OURSELVES. I'm sorry about your friends, it's bad to lose someone. It hurts. But, just maybe it ISN'T for the reason you think - maybe it's for the reasons I think. Maybe?
And even if it IS? SO WHAT? Did they HAVE to work THERE? Can't they have found some other job? NO OTHER JOBS? come on, you don't believe that!
ENDA IS WRONG. It's bad law. Unconstitutional.

Deep reality
If the gay community really had a trump card of genuine moral integrity why is it that child molesters and other deviant individuals hide under the " Protective umbrella " of the gay community. The point being, you'll never hear gays ever stand for moral issues, or the protection of children because they're only concerned for the overthrow and destruction of the church and the written truth it holds in order to promote their lifestyle.
Have they ever in history done anything promoting morality? So when child molesters commit crimes, to be sure the gay communty will never say one word against it...because its of the same class of culture, perversion.

That really is a separate issue
There are child molesters of BOTH stripes. Hetero and Homosexual. Most have come out against the labelling of "all gays are child molesters." And most DO CONDEMN child molesters of BOTH stripes.
Crimes against Children are horrific. Against the law. NO ONE should be out of jail who has EVER practiced it.

You didn't mention the subject that is
near and dear to my heart. The sexualization of children. All this pc in schools. No matter HOW you cut it, that is WRONG.
And there are more forces at work trying to destroy Christianity and Judaism than you might think. It is a communist doctrine. A Muslim doctrine.
Because when you destroy a person's BELIEFS, they have NOTHING to cling to but the STATE. Who will gladly step in and take over.

I have a couple hous left
for that nap. Night all.

To Well, now
Thanks for your prayers. I will say a prayer for you and all your family.

I really need to stop posting on this board, it is not helping me deal with the fact that I am a male homosexual. I thought that it would help by posting on this board, but it isn't. Its rather depressing that so many people just don't understand. I don't think you understand. ............... heck, I don't totally understand. For me there is nothing gay with being gay. I played Russian roulette for five days. Even though I cheated, in the condition that I was in it would have been easy for me to make a mistake.

I see happy gays/lesbians on TV all the time. My brother-in-law has a brother who is gay. He is a member of a rock band whose name you might know. He is openly gay. I met him at their wedding. He is someone who you can tell is gay. My father has a first cousin. We all know she is gay. She was a college President of a small college on the west coast. But she is not out to the family. I know of others who have adjusted to accepting the fact that they are gay/lesbian and I guess are happy. They are all good people.

I just need to work on accepting myself and just accept that many people are wrong.





More to Well, now
Thanks for your response to papercuts on the subject of child molestation.

And, I agree with you on the sexualization of children in our society. In Maine they gave birth control medication to an eleven year old at a public school. The should have called the damn police.

Swampfox
"it is not helping me deal with the fact that I am a male homosexual."

The purpose of this borad is not to help you, actually.

To Well, now
There is a missing piece to me and my friend who lost her job. I am transsexual, and so was my friend. It's not so simple for any trans person to just "dust themselves off and get another job." Bigotry in Georgia runs rampid.

My friend Alice had a degree in Library Science, was a veteran, a computer tech and computer programmer. After losing her job, she tried for 15 months and applied to several hundred jobs, and once they found out she was trans, they never called her in for a 2nd interview. She did odd jobs and one-time computer repairs, but that also dried up.

Then Alice found herself homeless. Shelters would not let her in because they were all run by faith-based organizations or churches. In deep depression, she went to the Chattahoochee River and put a gun to her head.

So, please spare me your "People lose their job every day" bull----. It don't fly in the face of the reality of blatant discrimination trans people face every day.

To papercut
Oh, yes. Straight people have a lock on morality. That's a joke. If you just look at marriage alone, you see how straight people uphold the standards of morality. If you even look at just the presidential candidates, you can see how well straight people uphold of morality. How many have been married more than once? Divorce and remarriage is against the Bible. Even Jesus made a comment on that. (Oddly enough, he never once said anything remotely related to "homosexuality" and embraced the ancient form of transgender people. Hummm.)

People can go to Las Vegas, get drunk and marry someone they just met. The sanctity of marriage is destroyed with television shows that have a man weed out his future wife in a group of gold diggers. There are also shows where the roles are reversed. Yep, that's morality at its best.

In some states, a 12-year-old can marry with their parent's permission, and in several states, 15-year-olds can easily get married. Morality abounds. All over the country, divorce is as easy to get as a new pair of pants, or a Hustler magazine.

Then, there are the Enrons in this country. All of those who raped their employees were straight. The oil companies are run by straight people. Troops were sent to a war to die for no reason based on lies from straight people. In fact, lying is common in the current straight administration. This is such a high degree of morality. What a wonderful group of role models we have. (Sarcasm)

If your knowledge of what really happens in the world was dynamite, you wouldn't have enough to blow your nose.

To AltWriter
And, I thought that I had problems with accepting the fact that I am gay. I can't imagine going under the knife to actually change from one sex to another. I pray that you find some acceptance somewhere.

To Swampfox
I am accepted by my two sons, my mother, all of my nieces and nephews, my brother and two sisters. I have made more friends in the 10 years as living my life as a woman than I did in the 46 years as living as a man. I have a good job and have worked there for 18 years.

I have acceptance, but I am one of the very lucky ones. %70 of the transgender community are either unemployed or under employed. Some of those have PhDs. Many have gone from a 6-digit income to a zero-digit income in a heartbeat. And yet, they had excellent reviews for years before they transitioned. Companies have even fired men who crossdressed OFF their job.

People don't understand how bad some Americans have in this country. There are three million Transgender Americans in this country. 300,000 of those are veterans. We protected this country and the rights of the people in this country only to be told by narrow-minded bigots like Jackson that we don't deserve to have employment in this country.

Does Jackson have the money to pay the welfare checks that transgender people get for being unemployed? Just like those who only care about the fetas, but once the child is born, they don't give a damn. Jackson and others like him want GLBT people to be unemployed, but don't give a damn on how to pay the unemployment benefits for them. It happens when people are always doing self colostomies.

NO LIVING PERSON can legislate
morality. NONE. Not me, not you. If people acted the way I would want them to... Yea, right. My standards are no one else's standards I am afraid. I am 'old fashioned' - quaint even.
I do not believe in promiscuous behavior.
I do not believe in 'serial marriages.'
I believe marriage is for children - those that don't chose to have children (God willing, and the pipes work.) should not get married.
I believe in keeping sex OUT of a child's life until at least 5th grade. (Birds and bees, menstruation but not anything else.)
I believe NO CHILD should have ANY medical contact with a professional without the parents knowledge and consent - no abortions, no birth control, and no ritalin.) Because I believe a parent MUST protect a child from the "outside."
I believe "Childhood" extends until 16.
I also believe God gave you (in most cases) ONE set of equipment - that is your gender, until or unless YOU change it. Parents should not meddle with the gender/sex of their offspring.

I sympathize with those 'born in the wrong bodies' but facts are facts. Those born undifferentiated must make their own choice or stay the way they are, if they CHOSE.

I know I will get a lot of flack for that stand, but I have known a lot of people who have been hurt by the 'deception' practiced of a girl/guy in training, so to speak. BOTH sides get hurt. Some permanently. I think, in the long run, it just is NOT worth it.
Sure, it does cause a lot of pain. But so does any other 'birth defect' if I can use that analogy. It's not fair either. Neither is life.

I heard an OLD man say one time, "The secret to life is to be as happy and comfortable with yourself as you can be. The world neither knows nor cares how you feel. It will spin regardless, and wouldn't you just like to p!$$ them off enough to stay?"

Gay Consequences
Gays are

Gays are spreading deadly diseases from HIV/AIDS to STD's because they screw anyone willing or not willing like the Gay Priests abusing Catholic Children


All those that do so belong in jail

Gays are as much a threat to the United States children and families as Islam.

If you really care about Gays then try to get them out of this sex cult that will certainly kill them and others at an early age.

So Let Me Get This Straight...
Do you as a christian feel that your faith tells you to kill people who don't subscribe to your religious standards of behavior, or that it's alright for someone else to kill or hurt them? Is that what you get from all that Christ said? So much for calling yourself a christian.

What I got from this article was that you feel it is acceptable to persecute people because you don't agree with their sexuality or that it's fine with you if someone else persecutes or hurts them. I see a lot of "christian" comments here too. Is it any wonder to you that people wouldn't want to be part of something so hateful and vindictive and judgemental?

Sometimes I wonder if you'd find your words so acceptable if they were coming out of a mullah's mouth. The funny part is, they could very easily be saying the same thing you are. Religion of peace, religion of love...I call bull. There's nothing loving or peaceful about you guys, unless you're dealing with people who agree with you.

Common Sense
Common Sense tells one that the Gay lifestyle is self and societalk destruction. However if one is looking for the words to succincly explain it you will find the TRUTH to all worldly questions in the Bible. Got a question --read the bible.


Romans:
3
For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
4
so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit.
5
For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit.
6
The concern of the flesh is death, but the concern of the spirit is life and peace.
7
For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it;
8
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9
But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10
But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11
If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you.
12
Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Swampfox and Andrews
Swampfox
No matter how many ways or times you say it, it doesn't make it so. Homosexuality is a choice. All the other baseless drivel is just drivel.
No one should be looked down upon because they choose to sin in this way. We all sin in some way. But that is choice also. Lots of bad things happen to everyone. Quit sniveling and just get on with your life. You will have to face your maker just like the rest of us. In the meantime, why not try to make a positive contribution?

Andrews:
Circlular argument garbage.

To Andrew
Andrew: No matter how many ways or times you say it, it doesn't make it so. Homosexuality is a choice."

Swampfox: No it is not a choice, no matter what you say or what you were taught. Someone would have to insane to want to be gay/lesbian. Just look at the amount of invective that has been thrown at me and others like me on this board in the last two days.


No Expert
Although my wife and I have very good friends that are both gay and lesbian.When we are with them we don't discuss our sex lives.My question to the experts is how do you explain bi sexuals?

To Henry R. Jackson, Jr.
I sure hope that the Reverend Jackson reads the responses that his article has received.

Freedom for all...
Personally, I believe that corporations, business, and religious orders should not make our Constitution and Bill of Rights mute by dictating who they can hire or terminate based upon race, color, religion, sex, national origin, sexual preference or gender identity. As it is today in many states, with more lobbying continuing throughout the nation, corporations and businesses can fire for "any reason" or for "no reason at all". This labor contract is called, "employment at will" and leaves the door wide open for violations of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Civil Rights Act of 1991, making them in effect mute, null and void. Changes in the way of employment for all Americans are desperately needed and our previous civil rights and equality legislations are eroding before our eyes. I believe, we as Americans, do not need the government or the general public to have rights of discriminations due to our bedroom activities or perceptions by others. Government this close is too close for me.

Why did we need the Civil Rights Act of 1991?

Quote:
An Act
To amend the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to strengthen and improve Federal
civil rights laws, to provide for damages in cases of intentional
employment discrimination, to clarify provisions regarding disparate
impact actions, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America in Congress assembled, This Act may be cited as the
"Civil Rights Act of 1991". End of quote.

And, we need ENDA for the same purposes, "to strengthen", the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and 1991, that our future children will not be bullied in school or at work because they are perceived not masculine enough or not feminine enough, regardless of their biological nature.
My story follows in the next comment.




Hate crimes equals bad law
First, hate crimes are nothing more than a political tool, designed to create a special class of victims. What’s more, such laws can easily be exploited by those who want to further a political agenda by claiming a certain crime occurred, or by exaggerating the facts. Second, have you ever heard of a "love" crime? All crimes are based on hate. In the eyes of the law, it shouldn’t matter why you killed or raped someone, but whether or not you committed the crime. Period. It is 100 percent wrong to have laws that impose harsher sentences for crimes committed against a minority. Why is the pain and suffering of a white male (or any other non-minority) less worthy of seeing justice served on their behalf? We’re basically implying that if you aren’t in the minority, it’s a lesser crime. That is flat-out wrong.

This is BS
From the article:

-- 1. ENDA would overturn the historical basis of protected class status by adding “actual or perceived sexual orientation.” While every other federally-protected class embodies three standards: an obvious, immutable characteristic; a history of discrimination evidenced by economic disenfranchisement; and political powerlessness, “sexual orientation” falls under none of these criteria. It is an insult to African Americans to grant special protections for “sexual orientation.” --

WRONG. The "protected classes" include not just race, but ethnic origin, color, gender, religion, age, disability and pregnancy. Think about it. Is religion immutable? Obviously not. Neither are pregnancy or age. And because people tend to amass more wealth as they age, older folks are richer than younger.

Gays don't need to make a near perfect analogy to blacks. Can anyone with a straight face assert the aged or disabled have suffered more oppression from society than gays?

Sorry, but Jackson is ignorant and lives in a fantasy world. The way current anti-discrimination laws are structured, it makes NO SENSE to keep sexual orientation off the list.

Swampfox
I’ve been a Christian over 35 years in the one of the most fundamental cultures of the Christian faith. I have been a member of several churches over this period of time.

Though the Bible teaches that the act of homosexuality is a sin, and Christians do proclaim it as a sin, I have Never, I repeat Never personally abused or know anyone of my circle of the faith to abuse a homosexual.

Now, if you call speaking out against homosexuality as a sin, supporting legislation against gay marriage some form of abuse, or persecution, then we would have to plead guilty.

Gays are attacking the institution of marriage which Christians have embraced for thousands of years. Christians are naturally going to defend it.

One thing needs to be made very clear. A Christian is a sinner by nature just like anyone else. Just because they accept Christ and join a church does not make them Christ like, or some sort of super saint.

If a person disliked homosexuals before they became a Christian, chances are that they are going to dislike them afterward unless they yield to the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere in the Bible does it condone hate of another human being.
Christians are commanded to turn from sin, and to avoid it as something that kills the spirit of man, and destroys happiness and the essence of life.

True Christians do NOT hate homosexuals. They do not approve of the sexual activity of a homosexual. I should have to be explicit to make my point.

The Bible does not teach that it is something that man can’t repent of and be forgiven of.
If you can be forgiven, then you can also be given power over it.

God does not toy with humanity. What He calls sin, He can give victory over.

So, my desire is that every homosexual be saved from sin, not just homosexuality.

CONTINUED

Swampfox
From what I been reading, most homosexuals are telling me that they have no choice but to do that which God calls sin.

Well, I had no choice but to do many of the things that I did before I got saved.
I was a alcoholic; I’ve done things that I’m thankful to God that He has placed in the sea of forgetfulness. I wouldn’t want anyone to know what they were.

In conclusion, hate legislation to stop Christians from practicing there faith is not necessary and is unconstitutional.

If someone physically abuses a homosexual, have them arrested for assault.
I don’t think calling anal sex a sin is sufficient grounds for a hate crime.

If you are discriminated against in the work place, sue the employer.

New information please
First, hate crimes are bad public policy that give special rights to targeted groups of people, rights not accorded to the rest of the population.

Second, what new information not available 20 years now compels us to grant special privileges to homosexuals?

No Need For Hate Crime Legilation
You would have to be completely blind to miss where they are going with this.

Hate crime legislation has nothing to do with physical abuse.

The purpose is to silence the religious culture from speaking out against homosexuality, period.

Assault is already a crime. If a homosexual is assaulted, an arrest can be made.

It’s harder to establish emotion damage as an assault, so hate crime legislation will make it a crime to call homosexuality a sin or immoral, thus making it a hate crime.

The purpose is to silence fundamental Christians.

I guess that it’s time for Christians to start lobbying for some kind of protection from hate. You would have to be completely blind to miss where they are going with this.

Hate crime legislation has nothing to do with physical abuse of Homosexuals.

The purpose is to silence the religious culture from saying anything negative about homosexuality, period.

Assault is already a crime. If a homosexual is assaulted, an arrest can be made.

It’s harder to establish emotion damage as an assault, so hate crime legislation will make it a crime to call homosexuality a sin or immoral, thus making it a hate crime.

The purpose is to silence fundamental Christians.

I guess that it’s time for Christians to start lobbying for some kind of protection from hate.

Plenty of negative vibrations going on out there against Christians.

Swamp, ENDA is over
Swampfox writes: Tuesday, October, 23, 2007 10:38 AM
Where are Jackson's supporters?
By now I thought they would be swarming all over this article. Since Bush has declared that he will veto the legislation and Congress doesn't have the votes to override his veto, all this is just a vain exercise.

Do we really want to take away the rights of Fred Phelps to spread his ministry?

http://www.godhatesfags.com/
_______________________________________________

Swamp, ENDA is not going to be approved, whether you chose your homosexuality or not--your 'choosing' may have been nothing more than someone, probably an older boy, telling you that homosexual nastiness was ok.

Remember what happened to Rome after the homosexuals took over. We are not going to allow that to happen to this great nation.

Swamp, here's what we should do with...
Swampfox writes: Tuesday, October, 23, 2007 11:41 AM
To dave
Dave writes. "You being a homosexual, whether a choice or not, is besides the point. You are a sexual deviant. How is that a protected status?"

How nice of you to clear the air. Being gay/lesbian is not a protected status.

Since you think a homosexual is a sexual deviant, what do you think we should do with all gays/lesbians?
__________________________________________

Homosexuals should take the initiative on what should be done with them: We suggest that homosexuals stop whining for special rights, stop the public perversions, pay for their own AIDS cures, stop indoctrinating and proselytizing children, stop adopting them, in a word be modest and discreet as they used to be 20 or 30 years ago.

At, Townhall is a conservative website
AtlWriter writes: Tuesday, October, 23, 2007 1:10 PM
One-Sided Web Site
The reason that Jackson is given space to spout off his non-Christian-like bigotry is that Townhall.com doesn't have the guts to publish an OpEd piece from anyone unless it is from a right-winger hate group. So, if anyone is expecting to read two sides of the coin, then this is the last place to read.

If Townhall.com really wanted to present subjects in the full light of day, I would have been given a chance to post my OpEd pieces here. But, just like the line from "A Few Good Men" says, "They can't handle the truth."
___________________________________________

1. Where is the hate? That homosexuals are deviants? The truth is not hate. But of course you libs/lefties have to call it hate, otherwise you have NO CASE.

2. We can't handle the truth? So what is the truth except that homosexuality is deviancy?

3. Townhall is a conservative website. Why would they publish lib/lefty/homosexual/homosexualist nonsense?

Swamp, where is the hate?
Swampfox writes: Tuesday, October, 23, 2007 3:25 PM
To Phileo
Phileo writes, "Being homosexual may not be a choice. ACTING homosexual is a choice; I advise you to stop it."

Phileo, I am an Episcopalian. Can someone answer, why is there so much hate directed at homosexuals?
_____________________________________________

Swamp, your whining about hate directed at homosexuals does not make it factual. Where is the hate? When we say that homosexuality is deviant? When we tell you that you will not indoctrinate nor proselytize children? When we say we are sick of your public perversions, like the Folsom Street 'Fair' and the San Diego homosexual parade (I omit the word pride because I can't imagine anyone being proud of being deviant)? When we tell you that we are sick of the diseases spread by homsexuals? Where is the hate?

At1, you are ridiculous
AtlWriter writes: Tuesday, October, 23, 2007 6:53 PM
Well, now
You appear to be a very sensible person. I wish others were. I just don't want to bury any more of my friends because they lost all hope after losing their job because of discrimination. It makes the need to pass ENDA a ultimate necessity.
_____________________________________________

Yes, yes, of course every homosexual who has EVER been discriminated against committed suicide, especially the ones who lost their jobs because of job discrimination. So there are no more homosexuals left?

No, you are being ridiculous.

foxfire, great refutation of ENDA!
foxfire22 writes: Thursday, October, 25, 2007 12:11 AM
No Need For Hate Crime Legilation
You would have to be completely blind to miss where they are going with this.
_____________________________________

This is the best refutation of the rationale for ENDA! Thank you.

Remember what happened to Rome after the homosexuals took over.

Racism
Everyone keeps saying we should have the 10 Commandments on our government buildings and in our courtrooms, that we should all live by these commandments. That the bible is The WORD. That we should have prayer in school, Christian prayer that is.
Now we are being told that espousing the Bible is racist, this is hate crime, when the Bible says homosexuality is a sin.
My how we can double talk. So do you want this country to live under forced to live by the Bible or not? Folks in what we call the Bible Belt are ready to lynch anyone who sins. Color not important. Just don’t SIN, or you are in trouble with them.
“Being homosexual is a choice”. Oh I’ve heard those explain they were born that way. Well what if I was born a Kleptomaniac, and couldn’t help myself, stealing everything in sight? Would that help if I robbed your home and said, I couldn’t help myself, I was born this way? Same difference.

Christian Racists!
I can’t think of anyone who expresses racism that can’t give you an excuse for it.

So, those who cry bigotry and racism should think long and hard about throwing that word around so freely.

You don’t think people are expressing hate, bigotry and racism against Christians.
Oh! They deserve it! I see, you have a better excuse for your bigotry.

Hate Crime legislation is nothing less than Affirmative Action, which is reverse discrimination.



sexual deviats?
There are plenty of heterosexual practices that are deviate behaviors, and if you stand on the scriptures as the self righteous do, a lot of it goes with coveting, things you think about and lust after, and not even actually do and most of that isn't even sexual. Check your ten commandments, no one any better than anyone else here. We're all humans. THe heterosexuals want to legislate their way of life. Give me freedom of religious freedoms, and fom, politicalists. America is about freedom and civil rights not sin, government get out of my bedroom please, or I should say "Big Brother".Seems the heterosexual rightist and the religious right can't think about anything else except sexual things, their obsessed with it. The issue isn't about sex, it's about America, oppression and the civil rights of it's citizens. The hate use to be women, then blacks, in that order, then came the Vietnamese and then sand
n _ _ _ _ _ _ _, etc, they just have to have someone to hate, Who'll be next? Anyone that's Islamic I suppose now that we have the Iraqi war.
Oh, and Mr. Jackson, the world is not "black or white". Get your head out of the sand.

religious freedoms?
Yes, because if we don't get our government free from religious freedoms the next war will be between the catholics and the protestants. None of the christian sects agree (Baptists/Southern Baptists) on anything ( except right now and that is homosexuality. Not FORNICATION, noooo, because thats with women, you know those things that heterosexual males ride for sport! Thats a heterosexual behavior that is tops on thier lust blurred in their minds with the "Adultery" ). If kristians could agree, there wouldn't be upteen different translations of the scriptures and even with these, there are great divisions in kristian world.
Oh, and Ms. Coulter, being a Christian is a lot more than saying your are one.

Christian Gays
I would challenge all the Christians who have posted on this thread to google "Christian Gays"

The American Constitution
The quotation "All men are created equal" is arguably the best-known phrase in any of America's political documents, as the idea it expresses is generally considered the foundation of American democracy.

The opening of the Declaration of Independence written by Thomas Jefferson in 1776, states as follows:

“ We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
If my government tells me I'm created by the very foundational documents that found this nation...why are so many librals whinning when a Christian stands for truth, and justice.
Thank God they'll never change history.
Religious freedoms????...The salt of the earth...and the light of the world...it has never changed in 2000 years.

To papercut
Papercut writes, "“ We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
If my government tells me I'm created by the very foundational documents that found this nation...why are so many librals whinning when a Christian stands for truth, and justice.
Thank God they'll never change history.
Religious freedoms????...The salt of the earth...and the light of the world...it has never changed in 2000 years.

Huh? Never changed in 2,000 years? What has never changed in 2,000 years? Christianity surely has changed. Our government is formed by the people. In the preamble of the Declaration of Independence as you so aptly stated it states, "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

I have the same right as you to pursue my happiness, as long as it does not infringe on your rights. I happen to be gay.

Again, have you Googled "Gay Christians"?

Swampfox
I do not understand what you would like fundamental Christians to understand about gays who have made a profession of faith, or that go to church, or that have religious fellowship.

I believe that gays can be good people, generous, compassionate, kind, etc.
They can possess many virtues as man weighs virtues.

Let’s back track for a moment.

You can’t be a Christian aside from embracing the Word of God.
The scripture states that there is one faith, one God, one Christ, one truth, one body, one Spirit, one way to heaven.

To become a Christian you must first believe that there is a God who created you in His image, and created the earth.

You must believe in the fall of mankind from his perfect state.
You must believe that the Bible is His revelation to mankind.
That revelation was given for the purpose of restoring mankind to a condition to fellowship with God and enable him to inter into the presence of God when he dies.

God is Holy, man is a sinner. The only way man can approach God is to be clothe in the righteousness of Christ.

CONTINUED

Swampfox
The laws of God were given to show man how far off the mark he is from Gods righteousness.

When God imputed His righteousness to the believer he expected him to turn from sin.

The Bible reveals exactly what sin is to God.
His goal is to deliver the believer from sin.
The scripture states; how can two walk together except they be in agreement.
How can you and God walk together if you are doing something that is clearly in violation of His will. You need to read 1 John 1, 2, 3.

I do not understand how a professing believer can desire to continue in sin while calling himself a Christian.

It wouldn’t matter if it was thievery, God expects me to turn from it, not continue in it.

If you are going to claim Christianity, you must at least make an effort to follow its precepts.

As I have said many times, Christians who are right with God do not hate gays; they are simply defending the truth of Gods word.
Sin is sin, doesn’t matter whether it’s sexual in nature or whether it’s pride, envy, love of money, gossip, backbiting, lying, on and on.

I’m sorry, but I just can’t buy into a group of people practicing sin on a daily bases without any attitude of repentance calling themselves Christians.

It goes against everything the Bible teaches.

To Firefox22
Firefox22 writes, "I’m sorry, but I just can’t buy into a group of people practicing sin on a daily bases without any attitude of repentance calling themselves Christians."

I am left-handed, you are right-handed. Is the difference a sin? The same applies to being gay/lesbian.

I can only pray that someday you understand.

I don't understand
I don't understand how people can persist in trying to force their religious opinions on everyone by legislating them into federal law. Believe it or not, the whole country doesn't follow your religion. Not everyone believes that snakes can talk. Not everyone believes that heaven or hell exist, or god or a devil, and some of us believe that the only judgment being done is by you and people like you.

Being gay is only offensive to someone who CHOOSES to follow your religion or other religions that resemble yours so closely as to make no difference at all. Sometimes some of us laugh at the minor differences that people make a big stink out of. The point is, your religious beliefs do not make good law, and should never have been considered in the first place when laws were made. This is in accordance with the establishment clause of the first amendment of the United States constitution. Read it and get to know it. Try not to apply the same slippery reasoning you use when you interpret your holy book to suit your own agenda.

Swampfox
Swampfox writes:

I am left-handed, you are right-handed. Is the difference a sin? The same applies to being gay/lesbian.

Foxfire:

Once again, I refer to the Word of God.
Let’s assume that you are born this way.
Why would God call something that you are born with, that is as nature as being left handed an abomination.

If it is an abomination then it must be a sin to practice sex with a member of the same sex.
We are all born with a nature to practice sin as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve.
When God regenerates the believer and puts life back into his spirit, his nature is given the ability to change his actions.

It all boils down to whether you believe the Bible, or have you established your own view of what is acceptable.

If it’s the later, there’s nothing that I can say to change your mind.

But, you can not pick and choose what you want out of the Bible.

What if I woke up tomorrow and decided that I wanted to go find me women to roll in the hay with. I’m a red blooded male. Would that be alright with God? He tells me that adultery is sin, but I was born with a sex drive, shouldn’t I indulge in my natural desires.

When we start determining what’s right and what’s wrong for ourselves, we violate God’s sovereignty. We begin to become gods of our own lives.

Patriot Games
You’re free to believe what you want.
I haven’t forced my beliefs on you or Swampfox.

If you really believe that there is no God, then you should live it up.
Don’t abide by any laws. Who says that the laws that govern man now are valid?
Who says that Natural Law is a valid law?
To truly be free, we must be free from all law, right.

If life ends in a 70-100 years and that’s it, you should party, rape, pillage, eat, drink, and be merry. Why limit yourself to man’s law. Who had the right to impose them on you?

You see, you’re smart enough to know that man needs perimeters or he would self destruct. You know that evil lurks in the heart of man.
You just don’t like God interfering in your life, telling you what to do.
You what to be your own god.

That’s the nature of the snake that talks.

Human Nature
God says the same thing about all humans, human nature. There aren't that many Saints running around and healing people on the street corners. With so many who profess Christianity, why are there not? Why are there not miracles being performed today in the sight of men as Jesus said "and greater things ye shall do" ? I see Ann Coulter says she's a Christian, but she if far from meek and lowly of spirit, and I cannot for the life of me see her "laboring in the scripturtes daily", in fact, I don't see any of these professing Christians "laboring in the scriptures daily". The fact is that most and I say a high percentage of your professing Christians out there condemning people in the name of christ actually know very little of the scriptures, what Jesus taught and why there was such opposition between the Lord and the church of that day, the religious leaders of that time and why that KIng David was at opposition with the ten tribes of the nation of Isreal and was hunted with a price on his head by the 10 tribes of Isreal and the anointed King of Isreal, King Saul. They actually know very little about the bible in general or about "truth" as Jesus knew and King David knew, and yet, David behaved as a man, as a human.Now tell me, that the kristians of today are as scripturally knowledgeable and spiritually discerned as David in his day, and yet David demonstrates his humaness, as all "men" and "women" do, by sin on a daily basis. So don't be condemning, your no more less human and sinful than David or I or gay men, women and I, a transsexual woman. You professing christians are sinners, just like everybody, so shut up and remove the beam from your own eye. We who are gay are no less than any one claiming to be a Christian or not. Your self exaulted.

PhyllisMs


What makes this country special is that you have the right to think and say what you say because of freedom.

I have been reminded several times about 1st amendment rights.

I guess many people out there believe that they only apply to themselves.

I and my entire family have fought to up hold the rights of the people to express there beliefs.

Has anything that I have said prevented you from practicing what you believe.

Why do you insist upon infringing upon my right to believe it and say it?

You assume a lot when you suggest that I and other posters do not know the scriptures.

I can back up anything that I post with scripture and verse.
I have never suggested that I or any other Christian possesses any self righteousness.

Would you call your comments judgmental or an observation? We all judge, but are your judgment based upon truth.
What is truth, Gods Word or your perceptions?

By the way, what I say here is not judging anyone personally. I don’t know you or anyone else on this site.
I do not hate you, contrary to what you may think.
Feel free to do what you want with your life.

I believe and practice my faith from one book. That book has manuscripts that go back over 2000 years. They say the same thing today as they said then.

I don’t know what your bible says, but apparently we are not on the same page.

By the way, I do study my bible daily. My Christian resources are such that I am confident that I am as knowledgeable as anyone can be on what the Bible says.

As for King David, he was a sinner like any of us. The difference with David is that he always chose to repent. That’s why God said that he was a man after His own heart.

foxfire 22
"If you really believe that there is no God, then you should live it up.
Don’t abide by any laws. Who says that the laws that govern man now are valid?
Who says that Natural Law is a valid law?
To truly be free, we must be free from all law, right.

If life ends in a 70-100 years and that’s it, you should party, rape, pillage, eat, drink, and be merry. Why limit yourself to man’s law. Who had the right to impose them on you?"

___________________________________________________

First off, are you insane? I don't follow religiously-based laws, but I do believe that we must have laws. I just don't agree that religion should have any input when we make them. The only people, by the way, that I have ever heard suggest that without law you should rape, pillage, yada yada yada are religious ones. There is something deeply troubling about that.

Imposing your need for shame on federal law is simply unacceptable. christians seem to feel that we should be ashamed for just being human, and this does not extend only to gay people but to any sexuality, because you have been convinced that sex and the human body are shameful things in general. You can feel that way if you like, but do not try to pass it into law.

As for wanting to be my own god, certainly not. I don't want any part of that kind of superstition.

Patriot Games
May I ask who has been trying to pass into law restrictions of your participation in homosexuality?

If anything, those laws have, or are being removed. Those laws that used to exist were put there by an entire society or culture, not just Christians.

You seem to be laying at the feet of the church a lot that has involved a whole society.

Are you trying say that this nation is predominately Christian?

Are you saying that opposition to gay marriage is restricting you from participating in homosexuality?

Shame is self imposed by the conscience. I’m not ashamed because you don’t like my Christian beliefs. Why does what I think bother you if you believe what you do is natural.

Christians are not forcing morality on you. You are the one that wants to change law to destroy an institution that has been accepted for over 6000 years.

Is anyone stopping you from living together? Do you have legal rights protecting you from discrimination in the work place? Have you been turned away from hotels, restaurants?

Do you think that passing a hate crime law to give you special rights is going to change how people look at you?

What if Christians had such a law? What if I had you jailed for abusing my right to practice my faith publicly.

You want Christians to hide behind four walls and keep there beliefs to themselves.

That’s discrimination, don’t you think.

Next time you get abused physically by someone, why don’t you go to the trouble to see if they go to church. If they do find out if they are a fundamental Christian.

You might find out that you’ve been barking up the wrong tree.

The vast majority of Christians are peaceful people, not the raving lunatics that you think that they are.
Just because they speak out against homosexuality does not mean that they are out to hang you.

foxfire22
You're making a few assumptions which are not based on anything I've said. This in itself confirms some thoughts I had about your feelings.

I am not gay. I simply question how you can defend your position on the matter or feel that you should enforce your beliefs on others. What you've said seems to back up the idea that you are prejudiced. The simple fact that you would make such an assumption appears to confirm that. Kindly refrain from putting your words in the mouths of others.

Patriot Games
Patriot Games writes:

Being gay is only offensive to someone who CHOOSES to follow your religion or other religions that resemble yours so closely as to make no difference at all. Sometimes some of us laugh at the minor differences that people make a big stink out of. The point is, your religious beliefs do not make good law, and should never have been considered in the first place when laws were made. This is in accordance with the establishment clause of the first amendment of the United States constitution. Read it and get to know it. Try not to apply the same slippery reasoning you use when you interpret your holy book to suit your own agenda.

Foxfire:

I apologize if I misread you.
In the above statement you go from;” Being gay is only offensive” to” Sometimes some of (us) laugh”.

Natural assumption is to think that you are including yourself.

Reflecting upon what you said, I don’t think that you could say that I put words in your mouth if you are fair in your judgment.

This whole discussion started from a conversation with a gay (Swampfox) who said that he was a Christian.
You apparently jumped into a conversation that you were short on details.
I was having a very civil conversation with a gay Christian on the subject of religion.
I never stated that gays were obligated to submit to my value system.
Not once did I express animosity toward gays.

You jumped to conclusions based upon your feelings of Christians imposing there value system on others.

I never get into these discussions without making clear that you can believe what you choose. I am merely stating my view, period.
I do not pass laws; I do not have influence with congress, state and local government.

I do am not involved with a coalition against gays or anyone else.
So, does that leave us at peace with each other?

Good night neighbor.

Freedom from religion
To Foxfire 22:

That is correct,so why are you not out proseltyzing some catholics or some protestants, and why is it always gays you people attack. There is lots of work to be done in the christian arena, but it is not for lazy people. You must visit those in prison, those in hospitals, widows, fatherless children and help working for the poor. Lazy people sit around and grip and complain about the gays and condemn them on the internet and in blogs. I would bet hard earned money, this kind of christain warms a church pew only, and/or never reads the scriptures, not goes out to do the work of the Lord as a disciple.
It is also my right to live my life as I wish, as the God gave this breath within me, please allow me this freedom and don't try to legislate your religious bonds upon me, like the religious leaders in Jesus' day. Remember, they crucified him.
No, we just don't, as Americans, appreciate others tell us how to live our live. Maybe you should move to Russia, or Iran.
My father went back to the Phillipines with McArthur, and to Japan. I served in the United States Marine Corp, 1967-1970, Combat Action, Purple Heart, Meritorious Unit Citation w/Bronze Star, VCM, VSM.
Believe it, say it, don't legislate it. I don't want to live in a religious state, with other peoples religious perceptions or concepts pushed upon me by the law of the land. This is America, land of the free.

Freedom from religion
I can tell by your "milk" and the lack of meat !
You can back up anything with a scripture, point is, you live it and let me live my life my way. If I go to hell, it won't be because I followed some hipocrit kristian who is a closeted homosexual, a fornicating/adulterous preacher or a pedofile. I kneel and pray where Jesus told me to, in my closet and not to be seen of men.
Observations and a righteous judgment...
Dosen't matter, don't legislate my life and destroy America, home of the free.
You do judge us, LGBT peoples.
I don’t know you or anyone else on this site.
I do not hate you, contrary to what you may think.
professing kristians do hate, don't tell me that !
As an American, I will, Thomas Jefferson established separation of church and state.
How many rewritten volumns are there and do you follow them all, read them all?
You cannot obey every Law of the scriptures and to tell me you do, will prove your a hipocrit. Moses was a murder, David a murderer and an adulterer, we all have sin. Please, get out of our ( the LGBT people's whom you kristian target, believe me, there are plenty of poor to help if you really wanted to do the Lords work but you prefer to target LGBT people and that in itself make you a hipocrit ) bedrooms and mind you own business or mind the Lords work, the true "religion undefiled".

Freedom from religion, part three
I use the King James, nothing else, the others are watered down, rewritten, meanings changed.
That's right, "by their fruits of the spirit ye shall know them", it does not say you will know them by how many scriptures the know.
Knowledge comes from lots of prayer, by the Holy Ghost and a pure heart, not just by reading, there must be discernment of which only comes from the Holy Ghost. Remember,Love is the greatest of the gifts.
David also was a warrier, and that not of the established church of his day, as was Jesus, ("after the root of Jesse). They were cut from the same cloth. A far cry from anything we see today. I can't believe you kristains see nothing to complain of the government, It just doesn't seem like heaven to me. Remember the prince of this world? Whom do you support, the prince of this world or God.



PhyllisMs
I wish that I understood what you are talking about.

First of all, you are addressing me, not someone that you met last week on the street.

I have not pushed anything on you. I have not legislated anything. That’s all in your mind.

I served my country as well. Matter of a fact my father, WW1 vet, my two brothers WW2 vets, both decorated for bravery, myself in Vietnam, my two sons in Gulf Wars.
I think that we have earned the right to religious freedom, and your right to object to religion.
I have been civil and respectful to all those that I address on these sights.

By the way, I do study the scriptures daily, and I do talk to anyone who will listen.
I do it respectfully and with grace.

PhyllisMs

PhyllisMs writes: Sunday, October, 28, 2007 1:14 PM
Freedom from religion, part three
I use the King James, nothing else, the others are watered down, rewritten, meanings changed.
That's right, "by their fruits of the spirit ye shall know them", it does not say you will know them by how many scriptures the know.
Knowledge comes from lots of prayer, by the Holy Ghost and a pure heart, not just by reading, there must be discernment of which only comes from the Holy Ghost. Remember,Love is the greatest of the gifts.
David also was a warrier, and that not of the established church of his day, as was Jesus, ("after the root of Jesse). They were cut from the same cloth. A far cry from anything we see today. I can't believe you kristains see nothing to complain of the government, It just doesn't seem like heaven to me. Remember the prince of this world? Whom do you support, the prince of this world or God.

Foxfire:

Once again, I must ask, to whom are you addressing your comments, and what in the world are you talking about.

I use the KJV. I study every day. I try to rightly divide the word. At least I’ve been at it for 35 years.

I understand what the spiritual life is.

Are you saying that the bible does not teach separation from the world?

Are you saying that Christ didn’t say; “be ye holy for I am holy”?

Do you believe that Christ died to give us a license to sin?

PhyllisMs
This is not meant as an insult, I’m serious, are you smoking something.

You don’t sound coherent. If you have followed my posts, you can’t be addressing me.

I have repeatedly stated that I have not supported legislating my values on anyone, but I don’t appreciate others legislating there lack of values on me, or attacking my faith.

I have attacked no one. If you can find where I did, please point it out.

Georgetwin
Your absolutely right if your talking about a tatoo shop. But your completely wrong when it comes to the work place in American industry and public service. We have a constitution to uphold and a nation to hold together. The banana republics are a perfect example of your proposal. Verizon can't hire all people who are communications techies and the oil and gas industry can't hire all people who want to play in oil and gas, so they get a cross cut of America as employees. But even so the techies and the oil and gas people should not be fired just because they are gay. You haven't been listening. "Big Brother"(facists) get out of my bedroom, quit spying on the American people and terminating their jobs because of what they do in the privacy of their homes.
People want good paying jobs and that opportunity in America should be open to all citizens of this country. Nepotism is wrong in the American work place and women were oppressed by the "good ole boy regime" and sexually harassed for eons in this worlds history. Lets not turn back time and erode these rights of civilty we have accomplished to date, but we are not perfect and still need improvements. One of those improvements is stopping the bully's from attacking gentle children in our schools just because they aren't perceived masculine enough, such as football players or girls passed by because they are not perceived feminine enough such as in the work place because a supervisor wants "beautiful women" around him or personal servitudes. There is a lot of civil work to be done. Remember, Civil Rights has to do with being "civilized" and curtailing certain behaviors in the workplace.
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